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View Poll Results: Do you think NVFS is a step forward for Palm?
Yes 23 53.49%
No 16 37.21%
Don't know or don't care 4 9.30%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-08-2005, 04:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
If it had RAM, it wouldn't be able to survive a dead battery.

"That submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine..."


Wait, couldn't they use the same kind of internal storage as the T5 (you wouldn't need 256mb) to store your programs on and save the HDD simply for external storage? Yes, it would increase Palmone's cost, but it would increase the speed of the device and save battery life.

If the next version of the Lifedrive is less expensive to produce I would like to see Palmone go in this direction. Save that HDD as a big SD card so it doesn't need to be accessed constantly for normal non multimedia use.
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Last edited by archangel : 06-08-2005 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 04:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyker
NVFS their biggest innovation? There's nothing innovate about it - PPC's have been able to do that since they had SD cards! NVFS is just a bad implementation of an idea that's been around since computers were invented.


Ah, but it doesn't really work that way. Until WM5 (which works almost exactly like NVFS), if you let the battery on your PPC go dead, you lose all your PIM data, your registry and any applications (today themes, plugins, etc.) that had to be installed in RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyker
I do take issue about the stability and buggy programs thing 'tho - That's just not fair on the coders.
See, NVFS works *exactly* the same way as running a program off VFS via the \PALM\Launcher directory, and we already knew that a lot of programs didn't like that - Despite this, Palm extended that over the system, hid a few things and rename a few things and didn't even consider any consequences.


In other words, coders have had four years to get ready for this and still messed it up, yes? Anything that worked properly on a VFS m505 should work properly with NVFS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyker
The wiping of the NVFS during a hard reset is a Good Thing - As you say, if it didn't then a Hard Reset would be pointless. Even Real RAM devices effectively null-write all their RAM (By cutting power ) when hard reset, so it's just a logical continuation.

That said 'tho, the null-writing of VFS areas is stupid stupid stupid. There is no good reason for this. Also, I thought only the LifeDrive did this, but I'm told the T|5 does it to it's internal FlashRAM too - Is this true?! (I hope not!!)


Again, did you actually read what I wrote or listen to the podcast?

Here, let me refresh your memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
As for losing everything on a hard reset, I've done a lot of thinking about this and really, that's by design. If your Palm is screwed up enough to require a hard reset, then Palm has no way of knowing whether the source of the problem is in the storage heap (the 64MB section of the T5/LifeDrive pretending to be RAM) or on the internal drive. It's simply safer to wipe everything and go back to factory defaults. If they'd only wiped the storage heap and that didn't fix the problem, you'd have a doorstop.


As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.

"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
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Old 06-08-2005, 04:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel
Wait, couldn't they use the same kind of internal storage as the T5 (you wouldn't need 256mb) to store your programs on and save the HDD simply for external storage? Yes, it would increase Palmone's cost, but it would increase the speed of the device and save battery life.

Yes, but only marginally. If I were Palm, I'd decide that the performance benefits weren't worth the money and added complexity. (You'd have to have a motherboard with both RAM and Flash, and the hard drive controller at that point. Too many chips.)

Really, folks. Try a LifeDrive for yourself. The lag is not noticeably longer than the one on my T5.
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Old 06-08-2005, 04:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
Okay, just a quick note, and I might be prickly here:

The 512 byte issue on the T5 may be a poor design choice, but it's not a bug. It doesn't maximize memory storage, but it does work as designed. The NVFS-related bug on the T5 (which the forthcoming ROM update should patch) is that the T5, quite unlike the TE2 and the LifeDrive, sometimes isn't aggressive enough in clearing the DBcache, allowing it to run out of memory. For now, the freeware DBcacheTool solves this problem.


Agreed. The 512 byte issue doesn't bother me as much as the memory errors. My problem is that the "fix" has been coming for 6 months. I know you're of the belief that it's just not worth it for PalmOne to fix the little things. The problem is the "general" public listens to people who use their devices every day. And those of us that do grow increasingly annoyed at the fact that it takes so long to fix bugs, but they have time to develop new devices with the fixes in place. (Which along a parallel line is why I don't buy things like Agendus any more.) You can't sacrifice past devices just to get new devices out the door. People will stop going that route because they feel the quality is suffering (regardless if it's because they install third party software, which is what helps drive sales among the power users who make recommendations to the less knowing population).
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Old 06-08-2005, 04:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surur
Jeff, you started out so well, but by half way through you were again up to your apologists ways.


And here I was just commenting yesterday that Surur has been making some well-thought-out, reasoned and cogent posts recently. Guess it was just a phase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surur
As usual you blame the users and their "third party software". How dare they install software from anyone else but Palm on their pocket computers? Funny that versamail and bazer themselves seem sufficient to bring a LifeDrive to its knees on some web pages and e-mail messages.


And some web pages bring Firefox to its knees. I agree that Blazer and VersaMail aren't perfect. I use SnapperMail, myself. Also looking at PicselBrowser.

I expect developers to do their job and write solid code. I expect users to realize when an application is a buggy piece of crap and stop using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surur
Do you always end with "This is the situation, Palm is a monopoly, you have no choice, now shut up and stop complaining"?


Yellow card, Surur! This ain't PIC. We don't play that way here.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.



"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."


How can you say that with a straight face? Once you clear the 64MB, how would the LD know you had malignant software on your SD card/Drive? Its these kind of lame excuses that get you labeled an apologist.

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Old 06-08-2005, 05:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel
It is far from a hardship to backup my PDA to my SD card in case of a battery failure or hard reset and just restore everything that way in the ultra rare occassion of that even happening. Much simplier than putting up with the headaches of the current NFVS PDAs.


Again, "normal" people won't do it. For cryin' out loud, how many of you regularly back up your PCs? I don't.

And what headaches are you talking about? Again, running stable software, my T5 is quite stable.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyker
They don't have NVFS in the Palm sense, but ever since you could put an SD card into a PPC they have had non-volatile storaqe: You see, with a PPC, you can load/run/save ALL progs & docs off an SD card directly - My friend runs his iPaq with O% of his internal RAM reserved for storage - He runs and saves everything to and from SD seamlessly - He's never worried about batteries.


There are some things you cannot run from a card on a Pocket PC without major problems:

Device drivers

Today plugins

Today themes

Anything that sets and alarm

Also, your PIM databases always go in RAM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejosh
Agreed. The 512 byte issue doesn't bother me as much as the memory errors. My problem is that the "fix" has been coming for 6 months. I know you're of the belief that it's just not worth it for PalmOne to fix the little things. The problem is the "general" public listens to people who use their devices every day. And those of us that do grow increasingly annoyed at the fact that it takes so long to fix bugs, but they have time to develop new devices with the fixes in place. (Which along a parallel line is why I don't buy things like Agendus any more.) You can't sacrifice past devices just to get new devices out the door. People will stop going that route because they feel the quality is suffering (regardless if it's because they install third party software, which is what helps drive sales among the power users who make recommendations to the less knowing population).


I still contend that PalmOne was right to focus on getting the Treo and LifeDrive working, but the T5 fix is coming. Should be available within a month.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surur
How can you say that with a straight face? Once you clear the 64MB, how would the LD know you had malignant software on your SD card/Drive? Its these kind of lame excuses that get you labeled an apologist.


Because, oh, I don't know...

The Palm scans the card on boot up?

I'm all for having a civilized discussion with you, Surur, but don't troll. It would be a shame if you couldn't post here.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
You should never, EVER, have to do a hard reset. There is almost always a less destructive way of solving the problem.

Yeah, but does anyone knows about the warm reset solution? Few people do, so do you expect newbies to know? And if its a Lifedrive, you wouldn't even know its still booting up, if you see it stucked for say 30-seconds or more , many people would thought that the device is frozen and press the reset again..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
There it is again. I don't know how much simpler I can say this.

But if the T5 does not have the bug, then backup solutions should work (no need to rely on NVFS). Palm should have included one(Backup-to-card software). Sony has one since their OS4 units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
But again, you're making a strawman argument. 99% of the time, the device isn't going to reset when you turn it on to jot something down. It's instant on, just like other Palms.


Yeah, but 99% of the time, the device will not drains itself out of juice either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
No, I expect them to get it right the first time. Stick to the rules, ferret out the bugs, and nobody gets hurt.


Not true. Everybody get hurt. The end-user has to endure a less than ideal experience. The developer has to waste time recoding their software. And PalmOne get less sales because fewer people will upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
Did you read or listen to a word I said?
If it (Lifedrive) had RAM, it wouldn't be able to survive a dead battery.


Yeah, but it wouldn't have to access the HD as often and with a 1660 mAh battery, it would last a long time. The Tungsten C has an almost similar capcity battery (1800 mah if I am not wrong) and it's last a long time even with intermitent use of Wifi. And there are other solutions to dead battery, they could do the PPC solution - a lithium battery like those on motherboards to save the data until the next charge. And of course, user-replaceable batteries.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetGuru
Yeah, but does anyone knows about the warm reset solution? Few people do, so do you expect newbies to know? And if its a Lifedrive, you wouldn't even know its still booting up, if you see it stucked for say 30-seconds or more , many people would thought that the device is frozen and press the reset again..


How to do a warm reset is in the manual. And how did these hypothetical newbies learn to do a hard reset? Is it instinctive?

To borrow Dmitry's .sig:

if (!clue) {
RTFM()
}

Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetGuru
Not true. Everybody get hurt.


So let me get this straight. You're saying the users get hurt if the developers don't follow the rules and write stable code to begin with? I'm sorry, I can't support that. Developers have an obligation to write stable code, and the OS must run it as per the rules. I don't expect any OS to run any darn fool buggy crap that's thrown at it with no problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetGuru
Yeah, but it wouldn't have to access the HD as often and with a 1660 mAh battery, it would last a long time. The Tungsten C has an almost similar capcity battery (1800 mah if I am not wrong) and it's last a long time even with intermitent use of Wifi. And there are other solutions to dead battery, they could do the PPC solution - a lithium battery like those on motherboards to save the data until the next charge. And of course, user-replaceable batteries.


And again, that submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine.

You're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter how big a battery you put in it. Regular people used to the way cell phones work will not accept data loss on a dead battery.

NVFS is necessary. Deal with it.

And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.

Edit: Crimeny! You guys are making me sound like Surur accuses me of sounding! Agh!

Last edited by Jeff Kirvin : 06-08-2005 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:30 PM   #28
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Ah, but it doesn't really work that way. Until WM5 (which works almost exactly like NVFS), if you let the battery on your PPC go dead, you lose all your PIM data, your registry and any applications (today themes, plugins, etc.) that had to be installed in RAM.

Really? Mmmm, I must admit that as I don't have a PPC I don't know, but my friend has never had any trouble with that stuff. Maybe there's some sort of extra hack he's using...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
In other words, coders have had four years to get ready for this and still messed it up, yes? Anything that worked properly on a VFS m505 should work properly with NVFS.

Again, I think this is being unfair on the coders - The programs worked perfectly in their intended method until Palm BROKE them and forced them to workaround the VFS bugs when they could have been doing more useful things like adding functionality and streamlining the program.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
Again, did you actually read what I wrote or listen to the podcast?
Woah! Okay dude, calm down. You're gettin' snarky!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.

Okay, this needs some serious perspective shifting.

Right, first thing: Have you EVER had to FORMAT a MemoryStick/SD card because it still caused a hard reset after a crash?! I've NEVER had a hard reset situation that required me to format an inserted MemoryStick/VFS and I bet you and everyone else haven't either!

Now, zeroing out the main RAM is understandable, but clearing out the VFS areas? You know what that'd be like? That'd be like your computer formatting it's hard disk when you hit the reset switch!

There is NO reason for *any* computer to do that without user intervention!
Programs CANNOT be executed directly from secondary storage like VFS - They HAVE to be copied to executable RAM first which is why all NVFS devices still need this hidden RAM, so even if a program was corrupted on there the user would have to manually run it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Well, I wouldn't have picked that particular quote given that in it's context it didn't fix the biggest bug of all


The way the quote system on this board makes it painful to reply like this

I don't know why this subject keeps riling people up so much (Including me it must be said), but I guess it's the little details that people pick at the most.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter - The end user will use what they got and chuck it if it doesn't do what they want.

At the end of the day, my bottom line on the subject is that NVFS is a good idea but the implementation is poor. I think most would agree.

I can only hope that whoever it is that bought the M-RAM patent get off their collective donkeys and bring it to market, then we can get Palms with real RAM that is not volatile, stop arguing about such a trivial things and get onto more important things... (Like PPC bashing! (j/k )
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:37 PM   #29
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So let me get this straight. You're saying the users get hurt if the developers don't follow the rules and write stable code to begin with? I'm sorry, I can't support that. Developers have an obligation to write stable code, and the OS must run it as per the rules. I don't expect any OS to run any darn fool buggy crap that's thrown at it with no problems.

I am not a developer so I can't say that what breaks the applications are wrong coding, but in my opinion, it might be a mix of wrong coding and new rules that the NVFS-enabled OS put out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.

Persistent storage is good, it's Palm's implementation that's lacking. We'll see how Windows Mobile 5.0 device handles them when they arrive.
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Old 06-08-2005, 05:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.


Ohhh, geting lil hot in here ^.^ someone bring the hose in quick!! Also this adapt or perish...well, I'll just perish when my THea dies .
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