the_iceman

I'm one of a million who wants to upgrade my digital camera. I have an OLD Sony Mavica Digital camera (Yeah... the one what ONLY uses 1.44mb Floppies and can only take 640x480 pics).

I'm certainly no expert on digital SLRs... but certainly want to get one.

I've been fortunate to borrow my friend's Digital SLR (The Canon D20) a few times. He runs Sigma Lenses on it and has a nice 70-300mm lens (which I found very beneficial when taking some pics of my daughter playing soccer). I made the determination that I'm not able to afford the 20D and lenses/etc. I'm not single like my friend... LOL. I then looked at cameras several hundred dollars less that might actually fit my budget.... (OK... it fits the wife's budget yet will push the envelope as much as possible if I go $50 over her top-limit I'm left sleeping on the couch which I am not willing to do... hehehehehehe). I looked and read some articles about the Digital Rebel. As compared to the D20.... it has less features..etc but seems like a pretty sound camera (just don't care for the more plastic-y body). Seems like a very good all around camera. Then I looked at comporable(sp??) cameras and came across the Nikon D70 (still plastic-y body)... and did some comparisons between the 2.

Soooooooo I narrowed my choices down to the Canon Digital Rebel and the Nikon D70. Both are very 'similar' to one another in features etc. Different modes are similar, both like 6.1 or 6.3 megapixels...etc

As I've looked for some deals on the internet, I seem to have found some of the best deals on the Canon Digital Rebel packages as compared to the Nikon packages. (maybe it is because the Nikon is better... not sure).

Anyhoooooooooooooooooooooo I've seen some packages on ebay (buying from a camera shop type business) on getting the Rebel, several lenses, bag, 4gb Hitachi Microdrive card... tripod..etc for what I would consider a pretty decent price.

I just thought I'd ask any folks out here who might own a Digital Rebel ... their thoughts on the camera...etc. Pros and cons are definately welcome. Again I'm no pro-photographer. Just want a nice digital SLR that can be used for pics of the family, vacations.. you know.. all the normal stuff ... yet a little better than the cameras that fit in the shirt pocket. (that pocket is reserved for an Ipod or a PDA)

Thank you in advance for your responses!!!!!!!!

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Gizmo

Let me start by saying that both the Nikon D70 and the Canon Digital Rebel are fine cameras, and in the end you will be happy with either one.

I would like to point out that due to the release of the Canon 20D, the prices of the Rebel have come down quite nicely, and in my opinion it is the better value right now (btw: the 20D has forced the price of the D70 down also.)

Although I don't own a Rebel, I have used one extensively and it is a wonderful camera (I recently purchased a 20D). As far as features go, I think you will find that they are more than adequate, especially if this is your first experience with an SLR. As your skills grow, you can always apply the firmware hack which enables extended menu items such as FEC (Flash exposure compensation), MLU (Mirror lock-up, which is very handy for long exposures and macro work), and the ability to capture Raw + Jpeg images at the same time, just to name a few.

Two things to keep in mind. A Rebel with a good quality lens will produce a better image than a D70 with a poor quality lens, and visa-versa. And always remember: The camera does not take the picture. The photographer does.

I would be happy to try to answer any specific questions you might have about Canon cameras. (I currently own 6 Canon SLR's )

Good luck.

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the_iceman

Gizmo,

I saw your post about your 20D.... ahhhhhhhhhhhhh very very very nice camera. I borrowed my friends 2 times and it worked very well. There were a few things that I had problems with (some with the different zones being focused...etc) but did not make any adjustments to the settings he had because I don't know enough about the 20D's settings. All I know is there were lots... lol

I've used Film SLRs in the past and used to do a lot of my own 'play-photography'. Nature pics... Nightime in the city pics.. etc. Just for my own experience. Soooooo I do have some familiarity with all the workings of the SLR. Now I have to take what I do know.. and add the Digital part to it. There were just too many buttons to figure out what was what. I was proud I figured out how to do continuous shots on the thing. Also.. with the 20D not being mine.... I was very cautious what I tried 'pushing' and playing with as I didn't want to dork up his settings or set something that might have had a negative impact on the pics I was taking.

I could have gone 'more' with the camera price... but my wife decided she wanted to use money toward a 42" DLP tv for the bedroom (gotta love my wife.... ahhhhhhhhhhhh) sooooooooo my leftover funds for the camera ... are less than what I wanted. the D20 is a great camera... love the feel of it .... I've tried the Nikon D70 and it is nice. Probably similar in weight to the Rebel ... feels a little 'light' because of the body material... but probably the best fit for me.

I've seen deals... getting the Rebel (Even in Black .... which is the one I want).

The Deal I'm contemplating at the current time is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ssPageName=WDVW

This gets me:
Rebel Body (available in Black)
Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Zoom Lens
Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 AF Lens
Sigma 28-70mm f2.8-4 HIGH SPEED lens
Titanium .45x Wide Angle Lens
2 different 3-piece Filter Kits (55mm and 58mm)
Canon BG-E1 Battery Grip
Hitachi 4GB MicroDrive
Card Reader
Heavy Duty Aluminum Hard Case w/Dividers
Soft "Deluxe Carrying Case"
Tripod
Lens Cleaning Kit

All for $1380. I thought that was 'reasonable' for the entire kit..... You probably know more about the pricing structures than I do (best deals on lenses/bodies/kits).

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Gizmo

Iceman,

With your SLR experience you will have no problem catching on to the idiosyncrasies of a DSLR.

I did some quick price checking on my favorite web site that I use to purchase camera gear from (B&H Photo) and the kit your looking at appears to be a good value (With reservations - see below). If you decide to go with the black body, be prepared to pay extra.

Here are some things to think about: The filter kits included are of questionable quality at best. You really don't need the fluorescent filter because the camera has an auto white-balance feature. I highly doubt the UV filter is multi-coated, which helps protect against flair, and I really think a polarizing filter would be more useful than a neutral density at this point. Why have nice lenses and then put a cheap piece of glass (more likely plastic) on the front?

Which brings me to my next caution. The two Sigma lenses included in this kit are the low end of the Sigma line. Don't get me wrong. They make some fine lenses, but these aren't it. And that wide angle adapter may be fun to play with, but I think you will be disapointed with the quality of images taken with it.

I don't really know what to tell you about the rest of the equipment included with it. Again, I question the quality (Except the battery grip.)

Here is my advice based on my own experience. Buy quality glass. From what I've heard and read, the kit lens (EF-S 18-55) is pretty decent. If you need longer reach, I would recommend one nice lens instead of the two Sigma's offered in this deal. Also, buy quality filters. If you want a UV on the front of your lens, make sure it is glass and multi-coated.

In other words. Buy the camera with the Canon kit lens, and other better lenses seperately. In the long run I think you will be happier with the quality of your images.

I'll stop rambling now.

Edit - BTW, if I had a choice between getting the grip or a better lens, I would go with the lens everytime.

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the_iceman

Gizmo.... Thank you so much for all of that information.

I guess in some ways I'm a little stuck between the rock and a hard place. While I do not question your judgement in regards to the lenses .... I'm not exactly sure where to go at this point. I guess, in some ways .... I am looking for the best 'bang for the buck'. At the present time I have no SLR .... soooooooooo from a body and lens perspective I'm starting at ground 0. I do agree and understand that there are better lenses out there.... but with the need to take photos from a decent distance (soccer pictures) .... I do feel I need a 300mm zoom to get the girls across the field (I do webmastering for multiple soccer sites). Soooooooo I guess, while I feel they might not be the best... they are a good start... with higher quality lenses and accessories to be purchased as time goes on. The 4 things which did appeal to me are:

Body/The 3 lenses/ 4gb Card (Going to Disneyland at the end of the month .... I need storage space).

I am in 100% total agreement with you about it isn't all the best-quality of lenses which come with the camera ..... but it does give me a 'start' .... the Memory Card is very good. Transfer rates are about 7mb/sec and the body is good.... just will have to 'upgrade' the lenses as I can .... I can always ebay the ones I have when I replace 'em.... LOLOL...

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Gizmo

Iceman, you also make an excellent point. And as I mentioned, this is a good value as long as you know what your getting.

Let's face it. You are going to get way better quality pictures with this setup than ANY point and shoot digital camera. And a whole lot more fun taking them.

Good luck, and let us know how you like the camera.

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the_iceman

Thank you so much for the information. I'm still mulling it all over at this point.... I don't like to make too 'rash of decisions' when I'm paying that much money.

I'll probably decide by the middle of next week.... as to exactly what I'll buy. There are several options available to me. I do like some of the nice USM lenses out there which are a little PRICEY ... but... you do get what you pay for I reckon....

If I get one.... I'll be sure to share my experience with it.

Oh Yeah Gizmo..... I look forward to seeing some awesome pics from your new 20D!!!!!!!!! (Wipes drool off of chin).

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Gizmo

I can't wait for the weather to get better so I can get outside and start shooting!

OK, not a good picture but, hey, what the heck.



BTW: Just food for thought. For about the price of the two Sigma lenses and the battery grip, you could get this Canon EF 75-300 IS USM lens. The key here is the IS (Image Stabilization) for handheld shots. Remember, at 300mm it becomes the equivalent of 480mm with the 1.6 crop factor of the Rebel. And it's USM. Perfect for those soccer action shots.

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the_iceman

I'm have just a smidgeon of familiarity with USM .... well... ok maybe even less than that. I do understand that the "USM" tag deals with Ultrasonic Motor. I've heard/read they are much more 'quiet' than regular lenses... but I'm not smart enough to know really.... what the difference between a 75-300 NON-USM and a 75-300 USM is to me?

Quieter (I reckon)
faster?
Which consumes more power?
advantages to USM?
Disadvantages?


I did take a look at that lens you mentioned. It looks pretty good from what I can tell. I did like the image stabilization feature of it. I didn't notice that it seemed to be a much 'faster' lens than the sigma (although I might have non been looking or reading correctly). I am sure it is a better quality lens than the sigma...

I like that website you provided with the link to that lens. I'm not sure if that is one you use quite a bit... but I do like their prices. They seem reasonable to me from what I've seen elsewhere.

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Alsicole

If this helps, my husband reviewed his Rebel for Daily Gadget here: http://www.dailygadget.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151

He previously had the 300V (film SLR) and then swapped to the 300D (digital). These model numbers are the UK versions, but the camera is the same. He uses his for motor sport photography. Some of his pictures are in the gallery here www.rwbthatisme.com if you'd like to see the results with a good lense.

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Gizmo

Faster and quieter to focus. Admittedly, this alone is not a compelling reason
to purchase a lens.

Quieter: See above.

Faster? No. It is the same speed (f1:4-5.6) That is what makes the IS so important. You can gain about two stops in handholding ability. Of course when using a lens of this length it is always better to shoot on a tripod.

Which consumes more power? No noticeable difference.

Advantages? See above.

Disadvantages? On this particular model, you cannot manually override the focus when set to AF.

I would also give the advantage to the Canon as far as build quality goes.

Yes, this is the site I use the most. I've always had a good experience purchasing from them. They are very well respected in the photo world. Also Adorama.

The more I think about it, I agree that it is more important to just "get started" than fretting over some of the minor advantages or disadvantages of certain equipment (How soon I forget what it was like when I started .) As you stated, you can always sell your equipment when your ready to upgrade. I have done this myself many times.

Good luck.

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the_iceman

Thank you Alsicole for that information. I read the review as well as tood a gander at the photo gallery (too many pictures to get through... hehehehehehe. Nice pictures!

Gizmo,

Do you mostly use RAW when shooting or the 'FINE' .jpg mode? I thought when I read a review about the Canon... it creates a 'medium' quality .jpg when creating RAW. It consumes something like 7mb using RAW (including the medium quality .jpg). Do you find you use the RAW mode more... or the .jpg mode?

With me doing graphics... I should not have any issue reading in the .raw files into my photo editor software... and I do know that Canon comes with some software as well.

Back to the USM.... It seems if I already owned a good say .. 75-300 ... upgrading to USM might not be as advantageous. However it does seem to be a good feature to ensure one gets in a lens when making purchases. Good point about the Tripod. When I used the D20 with the 75-300mm Sigma Lens on it ... I didn't have much issue with 'stability'. Course I didn't drink 10 cups of coffee before I started shooting... LOLOL. The majority of the pics I will use with a higher zoom lens will be outdoors during the day (Soccer games). Usually lighting isn't too much of a problem and the shutter speed seemed to be just fine.

Seems... like using modes like the Portrait Mode or Sports Mode... only allows the creation of the image in .jpg format. You have to go more 'manual' in the settings if you want RAW images.

What do you think about the Histogram with either the Rebel or D20? I do think it is a nice feature, however most decent graphic programs (even Paint Shop Pro) which can read the RAW files has its own histogram built into the program itself. I would think this to be easier to use and manipulate the image if needed?

Soooooooooooo many questions... soooooooooooo little time... LOL

Thanks so much for answering my questions about the Digital SLR.... you have given me a lot of things to think about for the future!

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Gizmo

I use the raw capture mode whenever possible. It just gives you so much more latitude, especially over/under exposed pictures, when post-processing. Remember, the Rebel does not capture both a raw and jpeg image at the same time unless you apply the firmware hack that I mentioned above. I don't personally use this mode much anyway. The only disadvantage to raw mode is that it fills the buffer quicker and you may not be able to shoot at full speed in continuous mode for more than 6 or 7 frames.

Right. I use Adobe CS and it has a plug-in to read Canon raw files.

Agreed.

That is correct. You have to be in one of the "creative" modes for raw file capture.

Your right. However, it is nice to be able to check to see if you got the exposure right when you are taking the picture so you can make adjustments and snap some more if needed. I use this feature a lot out in the field. I don't trust looking at the picture on the LCD.

My pleasure!

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Joel

I'm a casual photographer. I basically use the Digital Rebel for personal pictures and to help out our school for yearbook (they will be using most of my pictures).

Here's my gallery at flickr. It sorely needs some updating but I try to put my favorite pictures there.