jarget

First off please don't get upset with me for the following. I'm not trying to knock anybody or initiate a reaction. The following is just my opinion.
Now that said:

What is up with practically everybody selling their skins. I am no artist or skinner(nor a writer) but I've been into customizing my pc, pdas etc. for a long time. At least 10 years, way back in the day when people gave their skins for free. I know its time consuming for people to skin apps and believe me I'm not a cheapskate when I say "it just erks me to have to pull out my wallet to purchase a skin for 2 to 5 bucks to customize my Palm." (I think I've only purchased two really great skins for Zlauncher)

Let's see: 1.) Now the person selling can't possibly make a living selling skins. 2.) If that person is finacially challenged what are they doing online(paying for an ISP). 3.)95% of the skins(low quality) for sale aren't worth the money. 4.) Alot of the skins aren't even original. They basically take other people's pixels and cut and paste them to Palm apps.ie ZLauncher. 5.) The free skins I've seen are way better in quality than the ones offered for a price.

Maybe, I'm old school but I thought skinning was supposed to be fun.
I'm not going to name names but there are a few ZLauncher skinners who do incredible work. Just a few, I'm talking 2 or 3 skinners. You know who you are.

If I'm missing something please, please let me in on the info.

jarget

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bh77a

There are a number of high quality free skins available for ZLauncher... I have downloaded and used over 100 give or take a few...

As for themes worth money, the only two that I have been really pleased that I have purchased were IceWindTan and IceWindBlue by MythoMania... now those skins were a REAL work of art and some time went in to EVERY detail. I have purchased a few others but was left disappointed with them.

Keep in mind, everyone does have a right to be paid for their time... Anyways, to each his/her own...

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bh

CLIE TJ27, Tungsten E(1), TX, CLIE TH55/U

jarget

True and worth the money.



Again, True

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When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

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lesliefranke

I think the key is the difference between those skins that are of really high quality and most skins. An orginal high-quality skin for a program such as ZLauncher, SkinDIA! etc takes alot of time and energy and requires as much skill as those who program for a living (see for example the themes at ZL Themes). You are right in that most skins, for example on PalmGear, are just cut and paste jobs of a Mac or Win XP screen. Most of them are of very low quality and would be what I consider to be pirated works also (why PalmGear allows them to be posted is another matter entirely).

As for me, most of my skins have centered on icons from the open source community. I could not take this work, manipulate it somewhat, and then charge for it (in addition I am using Festus's free tool to compile the skin). It just does not seem right. Besides, I use alot of free Palm software on my T3 and since I am not a programmer this is my way of giving back.

Now I am selling one ZLauncher Theme and DIA on PalmGear. As to the quality of this skins that is for you to decide. I do, though, not even make enough money from it to feed and take care of my dog for a year, yet myself. It is mainly a way to cover the webhosting costs for all of my other icons, skins, and themes.

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Leslie Franke
Firefox and Palm Blog :: Agendus & Datebk Icons ... DIA Skins ... ZLauncher Themes

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the_iceman

While I'm who does sell skins.... I can ride both sides of the fence on this one. I think there are valid points from a seller side... and a consumer side.

Some themes take a long time to create ... while others don't take as much time. Time is usually not the factor which would demonstrate whether a skin is free or not. Many a time it is up to the developer on what they feel is 'fair' for their work or some just do it free as a hobby for the community. As I said.... I do ride both sides of the fence. As a developer ..... well I can state I do appreciate what people create. This is whether the skins are free or not.

I've received skins I've purchased. I've received free skins, and I've 'donated' to skins which are free but have donations attached to them. It is a gesture, in some aspects, showing the developer we do appreciate the work being done. I've purchased 5 themes from other developers which I currently do not even use. Not because they aren't very nice skins, I kinda prefer using some that I've created ... lol. Does this mean it is a waste of money? I wouldn't really think so. Paying for skins (even small amounts) shows support for the developers and what they do and it also does encourage them to create more for us as consumers.

I can't sit here and try and make any statement that I produce the best.... or Torsten, or HazarD, lesliefranke...etc...etc (Sorry I didn't list every skin developer I know here). Each likes different things. Skins I have thought would be big.... turned out a disappointment.... others which I just thought were 'OK' ended up being a big successes to the PDA community.

One of the reasons I've changed some things around on my site is to stop the nickle-n-diming most consumers start to feel over time.

As a consumer, I have a great agreement that there can be much frustration going out and purchasing new themes you like for $2 or so. Every month or so there come new themes with a little price-tag assocaited with 'em. So another PayPal or Debit transaction transpires for the theme. As with all PDAs we like to customize them and give them a 'personal' look. Something that either looks 'cool' or that can visually compliment who we are as people. After time goes on with our PDAs we do tend to 'settle down' in the amount of skins we purchase and/or obtain (that can also include software purchased for it as well). Where we used to have 30 skins loaded up on the old memory stick .... now we might have narrowed it down to 3-5 which we like switch back and forth from time to time so our PDA seems 'fresh' to us. After a year of having a PDA .... I am sure many see themes which may look 'kinda cool' to use but decide they are tired of the $2 or so fee for it and just don't even bother with the purchase. Then we either stick to what we have or just look for something free which might 'tickle our fancy' so to speak.

That was why I thought it would be a good idea to do a one-time fee ... and you get all current and future themes. While this might not be advantageous to some it can be a great advantage to others who do like themes that I happen to create. A one time extremely discounted fee gets the consumer everything both present and future. They can download everthing new which comes out and can download some of the older ones if they need to. I've even changed things so those who have purchased a 'membership' gets first crack at the new themes which I release. I kinda looked at it as a bonus for people. Pay a little fee for a whole bunch of themes... and then all new themes basically seem free after that. Might not make nearly as much $$$ (from a developer standpoint) than selling them individually .... but then again as it was stated in the original post... I'm not a developer earning a living on this as a whole. It helps, though, for me to be able to upgrade my computer, upgrade my software, pay for webhosting, and help pay a smidgeon for my time doing this on the side.

Free Skins are always great. Many out in the community feel all skins for anything should be 'free' .... Winamp skins are free. WindowBlinds and Window software skins are free all on wincustomize.com. there are so many skins for different products... we have become 'used' to skins being free. I think sometimes we download and use skins for our PDAs.... much like putting a bandaid on. It is on for a few hours and then we put something else on. The appreciation, sometimes, for the work put forth by all these great skin developers around me is sometimes really lost as they use a skin for a week and look for the next one to replace it.

I don't know if I'm "Normal" when it comes to creating skins... from a 'time' perspective. But I do know it takes me 40-70 hours of actual Graphic work to produce a skin from scratch (Not talking about taking an existing skin of mine and producing different 'colors' of it). Sometimes one might go through 3-4 iterations on just certain icons just to get it to look right ... or the way I want it to look. I even have people load up Betas to give me feedback/suggestions on how it looks, and what still needs work.

It isn't a fast process all in all. 300+ graphics for a ZLauncher theme. Takes some time and coordination to get it all created and then compiled for the Communities enjoyment.

I do applaud all the developers who have shared themes with the rest of us. Whether they be free, or fee-based.... I can state (knowing what it takes to create them) that I'm very appreciative the time of all these talented developers have taken in producing skins/themes for us all!

You did make mention about 'talented' skinners and they know who they are..... I think all the skinners are talented. Whether the skin has the appeal we are looking for or not. Just to have the creativity of taking a concept and creating something graphically from that concept has something to be said for it..... least I think...

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Jeff Frankus
ZLauncher Theme Developer for ZLThemes.com
ClieSkinner Theme Developer for ZLThemes.com

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jarget

Ah, point taken.

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When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

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Torsten

i go conform with jarget, skinning is fun. but i can understand the people that takes money for the skins. its not the work and the time that makes the price of 2$. i think its only to get a little respect for the work and the time. many of my themes are grabbed over 1000 times from my page and from the forum. but i ask, who says thanks for the work? 15 people? and 5 only writing back while anything is not working. without thanks - only the question why it not works. the same in mails. i'm a hotline or what? i sad often to me i stop the skinning, its very disappointingly for me to get no feedback for the work. 2 people of all that takes the skins make a entry to my guestbook. but this is the time - get all for nothing. but theres a handfull of members here that i make very happy with skins - and they also wrote to me that she happy. and thats why i continue skinning for free. hope my english is good enough that you understand what i'll say

Torsten

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pruss

If it's time consuming, then it seems reasonable for people to want to be compensated for the time. Skins are a luxury item. They are in no way needed to make one's PDA function. It is reasonable to sell luxury items. The market is small, of course.

It's like the plastic overlays in different colors they sell for various devices... Useless, but fun.



True. But the person may be sacrificing time that could be spent making money in another way (or doing something other than making money!)



This is true of a lot of different products. For instance, 95% of the books in a bookstore aren't worth the money. Caveat emptor.



If it infringes copyright, it's not acceptable, whether it's free or commercial.

Personally, I never sell skins. I sell skin change software and give skins away for free in order to promote the software.

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Alex Pruss

For my shareware (FontSmoother, myKbd, mySkin, Accenter, FastLaunch and AtomClock) and freeware PalmOS software, go here: http://pruss.mobi

hherbzilla

If someone can make a few bucks selling skins, more power to them. HazarD is one of my favorite skinners and, fortunately, his are free. However, I have paid for some others that I especially liked (e.g., Mythomania Factory... and a subscription to zlthemes because I liked the model and wanted to show my support).

Bottom line: You have several options of skins for free... and for fee. I'm happy to pay a few bucks for a skin if I like it or just to show support.

torsten makes a good point, too: if you like a skin, and especially if you're downloading and using it, at least take a moment to thank the author for their work.

On that note: a big THANKS to all of the skinners out there! I, for one, appreciate your hard work and creativity.

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wellsjs

Well said hherbzilla!

Let me add my thanks to all the ZL skinners out there, in particular "the_iceman" who is anything but "out to make a buck." He loves what he does, and he's very generous to those who help him. Also, a special thanks to "HazarD, "lesliefranke," "pruss," "Torsten," and MrNako!" You keep my TH55 lookin' purr-ty!

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mnapier

A while back (palmonesource.com) I posted an discussion previously on this very discussion. I guess for me I look at from this perspective.

When your at an arts and craft show and you look at a piece of wood with a nail driven through it. Do you see a nail driven through it or do you see something more? Theming is either Easy or Hard depending on your experience and level of dedication. I know myself I make requests on other from time to time simply because I either lack the time or the creative experience to attempt to complete my own request. I know that whenever I go online and see various themes, I have the option of purchasing these, just as much as I have the option of not.

Now if that isn't cryptic enough, here is this, I have in the time since I have been using my palm and various type launchers, purchased several icons and themes (such as iTunes for PocketTunes, thanks lance) & such as Jaquar for ZLauncher). I find that if you like something visually and you feel that you have spent your money well, then you have no complaints, but equally I would hope that the developers would be open minded if someone didn't lke their art.

Demonstar

Just a quick reply to Torsten; your english is okay, and those of us that use your themes find them to be great. As far as paying for themes, dias and so forth; I think it's part of the cost for our pleasures. I've bought some not so good and some that were just out of this world great. The skinners that you don't mind spending a little bit of your hard earned money with are LeslieFranke, the_iceman, torsten, Prus, Mr.Nako, Hazard, BandiT and those from Mythomania. These individuals I believe put their souls into what they do. My hat is always of to this kind of talent.

ddsmith

Torston's themes are fantastic and free. I truly appreciate his efforts and the fact that he shares them with us.

Other's charge for their themes. I subscribe to ZLThemes for the grafitti skins and feel it is totally worth it. If you do not want to pay for themes than don't.

People have a right to be reimbursed for their time and efforts. I'm sure nobody is getting rich or going broke.

Vidge

We did indeed have this discussion on PalmOneCity about paying for skins. Although I haven't done many, I am well aware of the time, effort and skill required to create a skin. At the same time, when I started skinning (for the NR70V), I learned so much from all the other skinners out there that I felt I was sort of paying them back by creating skins for free. (Remember David's gorgeous Sonipa skins?) Heck, I've still got some of those old links in my bookmarks! Instructions were shared - it was a community.

Even now - Torsten shared his artwork with me to help me create a matching T3 DIA for his Cobalt skin. Festus wrote skinning programs. All was free.

For me, any skin I create will always be free. I haven't really done much lately. (The Cobalt DIA I did I sent to a few folks who requested it but I never got around to posting it anywhere.) I understand the desire to charge, but not for me.

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