fengwei007

I've been Palm user ever since 1998 and loved it since the first day I had one. Just like many other users here, I've been wating for a T or SJ format Clie with VG for so long, but looks Sony will not release such a Clie within several months. I hate to wait.

Just went to some PocketPC's forums and looks like many Palm users have shifted to the Dark Side. I know a lot PPC users came back to Palm also. It's just the recently released PPCs (or will be released) are very attacting, especially those new HP IPaqs.

HP 19xx series are smaller than most of the Palms on the market
HP 22xx series are almost the same size and weight as my SJ30, and the price ($399) is almost the same as what I paid for my SJ30 ($299 plus blue tooth).

Some Dell PPCs are very nice too, and the size/weight is not that big comparing to Sony NZ/NR/NX.

As to features/functionalities, PPCs can do all the PIMs which our Clies can do. Maybe not better, but definitely not worse too much. Palms are trying to add multimedia and wireless in the OS while PPCs have them built in. Movie/music/mp3, all these are very attractive to new and future PDA users.

PPCs were bigger, more expensive and short of battery lives, but current ones are not the case. If you check the current HP IPaq and some other brands, you have to agree that they are more attractive to new PDA buyers than a Palm. And their price/size/battery life have been improved a lot. I know many of us just hate MS stuff. but you have to agree that Pocket2002 and 2003 have been improved a lot. They are not as bad as the old CEs. They are more than enough for our daily use to organize our lives, plus all these multimedia/wireless features, I think Plam and Sony have to do a lot to improve their OS and products.

We've been screaming about a Clie or Palm with 320x480 screen, no thumb keyboard, OS5+ with more memory, plus bluetooth and/or 802.11b/g, but not like there will be one soon. I saw one with GPS, but that one is really ugly looking, really like a GPS to me, and I don't want to pay for a GPS Palm. If Palm/Sony don't come out with some new better Palm machines to keep or get more new buyers, I think PPCs will soon take over the market.

I myself have been thinking about buying this new HP2215 for a while, especially with the size and 3" screen, bluetooth, multimedia. The price tag is not very high. I might try the dark side. Of course I'll keep my SJ30 and compare them side by side. But I'm sure this HP2215 won't be worse than the SJ30 (similar size/weight/price (SJ30+BT). The only thing keeps me wondering is that I can use all these hacks/DAs on a Palm, but I'm not quite sure if there is any this kind of apps on a PPC. That's why I want to try it out. Even I come back in the future, I still have paid for a PPC, which is what Microsoft and HP want I guess.

Just my thought though. How do you think?

fengwei007

BTW, here you can find some detailed info about the new HP2215, very very well built PDA I think.

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/ipaq_2215.htm

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hypachris

But you know, Palm OS devices have so many more advantages over PPC. For instance,

1) When you turn off a PPC, you know IT'S STILL ON, right? In case someone doesn't know what I'm talking about, when you turn a PPC "off" it's not really off.....the CPU is still active and runs tasks in the background. The battery power inevitably drains within days. For a Palm OS device, on the other hand, when you turn it off, you know for sure the CPU is REALLY OFF and not running tasks internally.

2) PPC is just an unreliable OS. Hard resets, slow downs and everything except the kitchen sink plague the OS. Why? Microsoft just forced standard Window API's down the PPC OS throat...making it bloatware. That's why you need 400MHz x-scales with 64 megs of RAM in a PPC just to equal a Palm Pilots 33 MHz dragonball with 16 megs of RAM (e.g. SJ22)

3) Documents to go VS Pocket Office........LOL, do I need to say more?

4) Activesync vs Hotsync........LOL. Go on any PPC forum and see how many people are complaining their Activesync is not working. How many are complaining here that their hotsync is working? Activesync should be renamed to inactivesync..

5) Palm OS uses a "simpler is better theory", something PPC has neglected for years. How many screen taps does it take to start a program in PPC 2002? Count them please. Compare it to the amount of taps you need in a Palm device. You'll find that Palms on the most part require a lot less taps.

6) There is no program closing button in PPC. Instead, natively in the PPC OS (without 3rd party programs) you have to go through complex menus just to close a program, LOL. Palm OS doesn't require you to close programs, you just tap on the house to run another program.....PPC is annoying in this way

7) There is more diversity among the different Palm OS devices. Every pocket PC device is just a clone of one another. Wow Gateway is about to release a new PPC.....too bad it's the SAME thing as a Dell, and Ipaq....with the same features and specs. With Palm OS, at least you know Sony is quite different from Palm....Palm is different from Garmin (Palm OS 5 w/ GPS)....and Garmin is different from Handspring (Palm OS Smartphones)

To back on-topic again, for all these reasons, I'd say PPC will not overtake Palm. This is all just my opinion though. Peace out.

jmg_NX21

I wish I could be as optimistic as you can.

I SHALL not be a PPC user because I am not a M$ fan...
Then again, I am a fervent APPLE user... and well we know the TYPE of market share they hold... I have PC because for a hobby I had no choice BUT my computer of choice is OS X.

BUT to the lay user who USES a PC, will they care to know what the PALM OS is about?
Doubt it...

I am not so sure about PALM OS in general BUT CLIE's are looking so OVERpriced and $ony seems to be sitting on its laurels... yeah people buy BRAND but then when other devices have 32MB + BT + memory expansion options that are NOT proprietary...

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rob_squared

I thnk you said everything that needs to be said.

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fengwei007

Yes, I agree with you on some parts. But as far as the speed is concerned, I don't think a PPC is slower than Palm, especially when running a game or multimedia app. As far as PIM apps, I've tried them, not as bad as you said. Actually most of us wants to turn on the PDA just want to take a quick note or quick peek at the Datebook, which is very fast too on a PPC. I don't mind to tap one or two more times to get to an app when I want to use them. No big deal. It's really the hacks and DAs I like the most on a Palm.

As to the variety of Palm, you can say it's a good thing or bad thing. Yes, we want to be different from others. But to the software developers, it's not a good thing. They have to develop a program which can run on different models, although they are the same OS. That's why the Palm Apps are getting bigger and bigger. Sometimes I feel very sorry about those monocolor Palm users, 'cause they have to use those big apps which take too much room of they precious RAM space, just because those apps take so many resources just to support color and OS5 Palms. Yes, there do have some companies/developers release different apps for different models, but they are very rare. Most of them just release one app to suit all. Just imagine how a b/w palm use to use "Contact/4"?

I'm not arguing about which is better, I'm just saying that the new PPCs are really attracting to me, and to many buyers who never have a PDA before.

Just think of a new buyer who goes to Bestbuy to buy a PDA, he has never had a PDA before. There are two choice for him:
1. HP IPaq 2215, $399, SD/CF dual slots, latest OS, 64 RAM, 32MB ROM
2. Sony Clie TG50, $350, MS slot, Palm OS5, 16MB RAM and 16MB ROM

Which one do you think he most likely will buy? I think it's the HP.

fengwei007

I know many guys hate MS, but I also know many out there hate Sony also. Just think about those big PC makers, HP, Dell, Toshiba, now Gateway. They all joined PPC group. Sony is not well known for its PCs, but for home electronics. Its NR/NV/NX Clies don't even come with a decent CF driver! Then why it put a CF slot in the first place? Whence Dell and Gateway start to give away PPCs along with each purchase of their PCs, then we will see that PPCs will take over.

Palm and Sony have to think over again, and come up with some good and decent products. Not the NX again. We cannot wait for too long. And many new PDA owners are buying PPCs, not Palms. Just check the market shares and the numbers tell.

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Kbranch

PPC isn't really that bad about stability if you stick to pretty standard apps, I never had to do a hard reset while I had my e755. If you use any of the features of PPC that Palm OS doesn't have or can't do as well, it really starts going down hill. Granted, i was able to run a SNES emulator and play native DivX files but you REALLY don't want to know how many soft resets I had to deal with. In the 1.5 months I had it, my soft reset count was well over 200, probably approaching 300. These aren't just exaggerated numbers to try to scare you away from PPC, I had an app that kept track of the number of resets. That's 5 and a half resets per day, and if you take into account that I didn't use it every day, it's probably more like 7 or 8 resets per day. If you can live with that, very little freeware and the slow OS, PPC is probably the way to go.

hansschmucker

Sony not well known for PC's??? Vaio anyone??? Anyway, I just like the clean, single-use PalmOS applications, that's why I use a PalmOS based PDA. However about the PPC doesn't turn off when your turn it off part: It's the same with PalmOS or Symbian, or 90% of all PDAs/Cellphones/Smartphones/Calculators. A complete reboot every time you turn on the device would simply take far too long.

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neogin

to hypachris .. hey .. no offense but ..

1. battery issue: i think ppc battery issue improve a lot more than before .. i asked my friend how long that he could use his Dell Axim 400 mhz with wifi .. (with medium brightness screen) .. the result was more than 3 hr + the battery size is the same as Tungsten C .. WOW .. that was before Tungsten C .. i used to have ppc before and i luv palm battery issue at that time .. now is kinda even .. it depends on cpu and the unit screen size with the battery size .. oh .. and the main board ..

2. i don't agree with you here .. the ppc can run with lower cpu .. not just 400 mhz .. and the window OS is designed for the cpu speed .. multi threading .. which require cpu and memory resources !! palm OS 6 will have multi threading .. and you will know why the hardware need such a high cpu with memory heap ..

3. i used to have NX70 but i never used document togo .. pocket office is not bad .. is it ? i sold my NX70 just a wk when i got it .. not becoz i'm gonna buy ppc .. i'm looking for ipaq 1945 and NX80 now .. NX80 has 70% vote from me now ..

4. when i got my first ppc in 1999.. i was just a college student too .. newbie for sure and i had no problem with activesync .. many application you can choose eh ?

5. screen tap ? never think about that .. hmm .. i think it depends on how the user setup their icon on ppc ..

6. i think you can just change the program from house button in ppc also ? i'm confused hehe

7. agree with you .. it happens anywhere .. but the more competitor .. the cheaper unit you can get .. not good ?

for ex .. like nintendo, playstation and sega .. many developers change to playstation .. then what .. many good games, variety .. cheaper price .. and sega dead .. nintendo is following sega footstep .. many kids change to playstation from nintendo from 1995 .. sad story .. i'm a nintendo fan ..

if many company like dell making ppc .. many cheap ppc will arrive with high feature .. crazy market there .. and you probably get the better cpu, ram, rom, camera, etc compare with palm in the near future with the lower price .. let see ..

i like clie .. but i'm afraid that if clie is still overprice .. many users will pick ppc .. i luv palm OS .. simple approach ..

take a look at ipaq 1945 .. built in wireless (BT) with $299 .. OMG .. and it is a nice unit also .. i will pick this ipaq instead of TG50 .. if you never try it .. the unit is incredible light .. compact ..

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fengwei007

I haven't used a PPC before. Well, kind of. Just tried it several times at store. I played around with the build-in apps, looks quite fast too me. And I'm sure all those basic PIM apps are not slower than the current Palm OS apps.

As to the CPU power a PPC needs, actually PPCs needs more power on those games, web surfing, and multimedia. If Palm OS wants to have all the features a PPC has, it needs this kind of CPU power also. Just check the latest NX, T/C. And I think the future Palms will use fast CPU also to handle all the multimedia and wireless connection.

Actually the current PocketPC2002 is quite stable, according to what I read from several PPC forums. As far as you use the normal stuff, I think it'll be fine. As to the other crazy stuff, and multimedia, they are just plus, and that's the main reason many new buyers choose a PPC instead of a Palm.

I'm a long time Palm user, I know what a Palm can do for me, and I also know how stable and fast my SJ30 is. For daily useage, a 33Mhz CPU is more than enough. But I want to have some multimedia and wireless connection features also. Especially at the current price and size level, the new HP wins me over. And I believe I won't be the only one, 'cause I've been using Palm for so long and I know the beauty of it.

neogin

and do you know why i plan to buy NX80 .. if ppc has better camera and better feature .. i will buy ppc instead of clie ..

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hansschmucker

about PIM usability
Let's put it this way. I've got a CliéNX and a friend of mine has a PPC2002 device of some soft (forgot the name). We switched devices for about 25 minutes. It took him about 1 minute to find out about how the PalmOS PIMs (including TealPhone) work, while it took me about 10 minutes to find out how the PPC PIM's work, since essential options were hidden in menues.

Anyway, this isn't a general comment about PPC.... just one case

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Jake K

From hypachris:
1) When you turn off a PPC, you know IT'S STILL ON, right? In case someone doesn't know what I'm talking about, when you turn a PPC "off" it's not really off.....the CPU is still active and runs tasks in the background. The battery power inevitably drains within days. For a Palm OS device, on the other hand, when you turn it off, you know for sure the CPU is REALLY OFF and not running tasks internally.

When you turn a palm off, the cpu is not off. It needs to be on to check if an alarm is scheduled to go off or not, among other things. If you close the programs on your PPC before you turn it off, it wouldn't be doing anything now would it?