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Old 07-04-2007, 11:52 PM   #1
andwewillbether
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Has anyone else tried TX Linux recently?

I decided to try out linux on my T|X since I've been using the treo and ipod for everything the T|X used to do. Well, I must say, I am very impressed with what I'm seeing now compared to when I tried it on the Tungsten E a long time ago. I'm bouncing between two releases, one that is fast but can't turn off, and another that is slower but works fine. The multitasking is actually kinda cool. I'm just messing around with them still but I'm defiantly leaning towards keeping the T|X a linux machine since I have the treo.

So has anyone else tried this recently?
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:31 AM   #2
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keeping tx a linux machine is a foolish idea. palm linux port is extremely incomplete. No wifi, very flaky BT, no power management (read overcharge and explode lithium batteries possibly).
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:42 AM   #3
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Ouch, yeah I'm very aware of the limitations. But MY tx was always laying around discharging slowly since I'd rather use a laptop or the treo/ipod. To me the T|X was always a device that didn't have a home/purpose. My favorite palm device to this date was my m100. I would love a modern V but it's just not going to happen. With that being said It's worth the novelty of having a Linux device that size. Plus I have my palm os fix on my treo which has always been more usefull to me than the TX ;-)
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:33 AM   #4
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I must agree with Dmitry. Palm Linux just isn't worth hastle and the sd-card-memory-take-up-space-ness... Heck last I tried it, it was impossible to so much as power down the device. If you want a more complete Linux the Zire72 and it's Linux, which, iirc is far far far farther along than T|X's...
Else, wait for 'PalmOS II'... At this point, it may just be easier to wait for OS II if you want a Linux palm. or get a zaurus...
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phreakonaleash
...Heck last I tried it, it was impossible to so much as power down the device...
...If you want a more complete Linux the Zire72 and it's Linux, which, iirc is far far far farther along than T|X's...
Else, wait for 'PalmOS II'...
At this point, it may just be easier to wait for OS II if you want a Linux palm. or get a zaurus...


Ok, it does shut down. I don't wan't to spend more money on this. Why wait for palm to release more mediocre hardware with it's new software? (if it wasn't for the treo palm would be dead)

I also believe I said novelty up there somewhere.

Anyways, to me the TX has always been out of place. The m100 was big but I didn't have a phone at the time, the Tungsten E was small but when I got a bigger phone it seemed big too, now the TX was just an odd experience for me. I don't get the benefits about the screen, it just looks stretched out and I haven't found a suitable 3rd party launcher, I'm much more impressed after running Linux on it.

As far as completeness the battery management is almost done, but the wi-fi is still untouched and as dmitry also said spotty bluetooth. Now don't get me wrong guys, but in the first post I said I was happy with my ipod and treo 680 combo (as well as my 12.1 laptop for that matter). So the need for those 2 wireless features in a novelty device escape me.

So why would I want to wait for another device, or be afraid of playing with the one I have, if I have a good combo already going and this is a thread about a device I was letting collect dust in a drawer next to a giant gameboy from the 90's.

Basically I was asking for others experiences with this project and so far I've got a response that I'm sure was not meant to belittle and a response from someone who hasn't read the previous posts.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andwewillbether
Basically I was asking for others experiences with this project and so far I've got a response that I'm sure was not meant to belittle and a response from someone who hasn't read the previous posts.

whoa whoa whoa... wait.
You shouldn't ask for peoples opinions then try to start a flame war over it.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #7
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I'm sorry for that, but at the same time instantly saying go to other devices or wait for OS2 aren't exactly the most constructive opinions especially considering my previous post. Specifically that the TX was collecting dust before this endeavor. I know dmitry is a busy man and his posts are usually short and to the point which can come off as offensive if it was intended or not. I also realize you were giving an opinion, however it seemed directed at me and if it was then it was off base considering the previous posts. Once again, I'm sorry and have a good day :-)
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:39 PM   #8
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Perhaps the bottomline question should be:

What can I do with a TX running Linux?

If that answer is not much, then I have to ask why bother! If you cannot accomplish anything other than basically looking at a screen of Linux running on the TX display, then what good is it. You might as well be looking at a photo of the same--neither will let you do much.

It is your TX, and if you want to waste it that is your business. However, don't expect much sympathy from people in this forum if you trash it due to stupidity. Nor should you expect much enthusiasm toward useless experimentation. I think most of us will respond to your TX not being used much with the reply that you should place it on eBay rather than turn it into an expensive brick.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:44 PM   #9
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Why linux on TX?

Hi, I'm using Linux on my TX for about a month. Yes, there some bugs. But PalmOS has bugs too. Especially in memory management. PalmOS has buggy dbCache. On TX PalmOS is slow and unstable. Linux is also slow, but it's more stable ;-) You can run several applications at once. You can switch between applications and your mp3 player wouldn't stop playing (as pTunes do all the times). Irda works, BT works and you can even choose any BT MAC you want. You can use built-in PIM application in Linux which natively supports UTF-8. You can play games of course, mp3 or video using either xmms or mplayer. You can use great power of shell scripts. You can ssh to your palm. You can have several applications using same internet connection. Some thing are not so user-friendly yet, but work in progress ;-) And about the wifi. It doesn't work at the moment. Thats true. But work is in progress and we've got some clues about it and with some luck it can work soon. It's usable at the moment and in some aspects it's much better then PalmOS ;-)

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Old 07-06-2007, 06:07 PM   #10
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I just tried out TX Linux for the first time in around a year... and found that nothing much had changed. Screen is still fuzzy, power management is still really awful, still no WiFi/flaky BT as stated above.

If you want to use it so that you can demo Linux running on a PDA, it works. If you want to use it to accomplish tasks, the default Garnet, while buggy, is much more feature complete. As far as the UI goes, TX Linux needs predictive text and autocorrecting (using aSpell and a grammar lib?), or else a keypad redesign. Running Linux on a Treo or UX would be doable, but the TX version just isn't there yet, and development for it appears to have slowed to a crawl.
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:47 AM   #11
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Screen is fuzzy? Not on my TX. What is awful about power management? It's a little bit slow (suspend and wake up), I can admit that. As stated above, WiFi in progress and GUI for BT is nearly done ;-) Treo is now much more experimenting then TX. You can use handwriting, if you don't like keyboard... And can I ask you what features already in PalmOS do you miss in Linux? Not counting WiFi ;-)

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Old 07-07-2007, 04:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miska
And can I ask you what features already in PalmOS do you miss in Linux? Not counting WiFi ;-)



my games, and those other 600,000 applications that i can download and run, not bothering to setup gcc, make, and 100,000,000,000,000,000 other dependencies.

PalmOS just works... Linux on the desktop took a LOOONG time to get to where it is today (which is somewhat close to "just works") and on PDAs it will take longer yet. Don't get me wrong I'm as much for linux as the next guy, but I have a more realistic view of it (and also I don't think rosy glasses look good on me)
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:13 AM   #13
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You can use a lot of games right now ;-) Some programs are ready as an ipkg sou you can just download binary and install it, but you know, binaries has their problems and now it's mostly in testing state, but most important things (PIM, multimedia, games, ...) are included in every image ;-) If you miss something you can port it as usual. I'm not saying that it's finished, but it's very usable now and work in progress ;-) If you are average user, you can use it(PIM works, games and multimedia too). If you want to try something more advance, you can use it too, cause it's linux. If you just want to install thousands of applications, then it's not for you right now ;-)
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:12 PM   #14
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Different strokes for different folks right?

However it is very usable for someone who wants to use it.

Hey, it might even convince me to buy a Palm OS2 device when they come out if it's not too closed off. Up until now I was almost dead set on going to Nokia. However I don't believe I'm the average user on this site.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
keeping tx a linux machine is a foolish idea. palm linux port is extremely incomplete. No wifi, very flaky BT, no power management (read overcharge and explode lithium batteries possibly).

Do you really believe what you wrote here? Ever since lithium batteries have electronics built into them that prevent overcharging and exploding so stop spreading FUD. BT works better than in palmos, it can go at higher speed, you can set custom mac address, set bluetooth piconet over it etc. Powermanagement is complete so what are you blabbing about? WiFi is nearly done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
my games, and those other 600,000 applications that i can download and run, not bothering to setup gcc, make, and 100,000,000,000,000,000 other dependencies.

And do YOU use 600,000 applications on your device? Moreover every modern linux distro has package management system - probably you didnt noticed that yet - and it is quite easy to use. There is nice gui for lame users in opie called aqpkg ... just mark packages you want to install and tap INSTALL, they are automatically downloaded and installed with all dependencies etc. If you really miss compilation that much, you can install gcc, make, etc right on your device too and you will get full development station with support for all those C, C++, Fortran, Ada and whatever languages you want ... can you do that in palmos? I really doubt so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
PalmOS just works... Linux on the desktop took a LOOONG time to get to where it is today (which is somewhat close to "just works") and on PDAs it will take longer yet. Don't get me wrong I'm as much for linux as the next guy, but I have a more realistic view of it (and also I don't think rosy glasses look good on me)


Quality software takes LOOONG time to be developed. I understand Hack&Dev linux4palm is quite a menace for you since you make quite some money on your palmos tools (which are overexpensive and can never ever surpass gnu tools running on linux powered handheld anyway)

Please check handhelds.org and hackndev.com for the device status before you start saying some nonsenses. Thanks

Some images follow ... if palmos can do this, show me how ...

Some PIM ... sorry, I cant draw and my hands are shaky ...

Preinstalled game called glider ... I like it ...

Another bunch of preinstalled games I like ...

Best regards - Marex - Palm LifeDrive, Tungsten T, T2, T5 and Zire71 linux port developer/maintainer.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:45 PM   #16
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Marex, keep up the good work porting Linux to Palm handhelds. I at least appreciate the effort that is being done to get Linux running. I don't understand why everybody here at 1SRC is so down on Linux? It's a win win situation for handheld users, if they can't get it to work then you won't be using it, but then again you weren't using it before, and they can, then won't all these pessimists be eating there hats.
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:19 PM   #17
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There's a lot more positive comments now which I must say reminds me of why I liked this board. It's not that I wanted comments of praise for Linux, just constructive thought. I think Palm OS is great, I wouldn't change my Treo to Linux even if it was 100%. However this is a great option to turn the TX into a more useful device for many people. I find that I just like palm OS devices better with smaller screens, I am well aware I am the minority here.

With that being said, I was getting a drink after a run with a friend today I grabbed the TX and pulled up a text file with the directions to a get together later tonight and I was able to draw a simple map and have both right next to each other at the same time without it being too cramped. It was a nice experience considering my laptop was sitting upstairs with no battery left (using it at work and forgot the charger, bad me). Now granted that text file was on my SD card that I've been using from my 680 but now I'm convinced that the TX is staying a Linux machine and even if I stuck with Nokia and didn't get the 680 I would keep it a Linux machine.

Now to go mess around with Linux :-)
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:30 PM   #18
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I tried linux on the BE like 4 months ago and there was still much to do. Since then I checked the linux pages for something new and found out little has been updated it nothing.

I used to be a BE-300 (Windows CE kinda like pocket) and some guys around the world changed everything on it (software) to make it better. After like 8 years the new customized OS still rocks a lot better than the original. They changed the GUI, some drivers and it is amazing. So, I hope the TX - Palm in general goes for something like this too.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:00 PM   #19
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no need for any insults. it is not a menace for me. since may i work for vmware, and my palmos work is now a small percentage of my income.

i use a lot of apps that palmos only has, most of them games. Palmos, has piconets as well, look in the docs. Setting mac address is also quite possible, just not documented.

and last time i checked packagemanagement was NOT in palm linux.
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:57 AM   #20
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This wasnt meant as insult, but anyway ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
i use a lot of apps that palmos only has, most of them games.

PDA is not a gaming device, go buy gameboy or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
Setting mac address is also quite possible, just not documented.

It is pretty simple in linux, just write it and restart bluetooth ... everything is well documented. So here linux wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
and last time i checked packagemanagement was NOT in palm linux.

Opie AQPKG exists since "Sat Sep 28 23:22:41 2002 UTC (4 years, 9 months ago)", see here yourself http://handhelds.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb...settings/aqpkg/ and ipkg is even older. Packagemanagement in palmlinux was ever since so what you state here is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentDC
Marex, keep up the good work porting Linux to Palm handhelds.

Thank you, but it isnt only my effort at all, there is a whole team of people behind hackndev. Feel free to visit us on our irc channel if you need some help with palm/linux ... it is on irc.freenode.net #hackndev.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:05 AM   #21
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one more thing.....why do you keep bringing up the poor BT mac address? I mean yes, sure when that once in a lifetime need to do that comes, you will do it 20 minutes faster, but I do believe my original point was about real-world usability.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:46 AM   #22
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and so what do you miss about read-world usability?
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marex
and so what do you miss about read-world usability?


His favorite games, but he didn't mention which one
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:17 AM   #24
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to name a few: working fast snes emulator, web browsing from my couch, remote control of my tv and laptop using IR, legacy + expansions, strong chess program, TreoWeather for my weather to be updated every morning, etc.
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:30 PM   #25
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If you're at your couch do you really enjoy web browsing on the TX over a laptop/desktop?
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:32 PM   #26
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it works for reading my email, or checking out the channel guide online
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
to name a few: working fast snes emulator

snes9x ... http://www.snes9x.com/ ... already packaged as ipk
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
web browsing from my couch

konqueror embedded ... http://www.basyskom.de/index.pl/konqe - already packaged as ipk
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
remote control of my tv and laptop using IR

opie-remote ... http://www.rit.edu/~tfs1812/cgi-bin...ent=opie-remote ... already packaged as ipk
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
legacy + expansions

legacy ... what? I think you are missing a word there ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
strong chess program

knights ... http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=261 ... already packaged as ipk
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
TreoWeather for my weather to be updated every morning

opie-today-weatherplugin ... http://opie.handhelds.org/gallery/m.../today.png.html ... already packaged as ipk

btw. you are mixing two different things here - this thread is about TX...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrygr
etc.

so?

btw. some screenshots of opie 1.2.x series are here http://opie.handhelds.org/gallery/main.php/v/opie12/
morever if someone is missing palmos so much, then there is palmos emulator here http://www.climov.com/zaurus/qpose/
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Old 07-09-2007, 03:08 PM   #28
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treoweather runs on my tx since i have the source
and konqueror is awfully cool...without wifi

legacy is a game for palm
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:57 PM   #29
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whatever ... there is that weatherplugin.
and about wifi ... Im personally working on it and it is pretty near. about konqueror ... have you ever heard about connecting to internet over bluetooth/irda/usb?
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:33 AM   #30
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Bluetooth/IrDA: I have no machine with a bluetooth PPP gateway, and no phone with Bluetooth. I have no devices other than handhelds and remote controls that use IrDA. USB kinda defeats the purpose, as you have to be tethered to a machine that has a 1280x1024 screen and a full web browser already, and isn't crippled by a USB 1.1 connection. I think you and dmitry are talking at cross purposes -- Dmitry is saying he wants something that works the way he does, and you are saying TX Linux matches PalmOS almost feature for feature.

To put it another way: there's a reason (beyond marketing) that people choose the iPod over Creative products.

That being said, I look forward to your WiFi driver

ALso, about the fuzzy screen... screenshots always come out crisp, but the screen itself whines and is jittery (blurry) when I use Linux. The only time it does this for me under PalmOS is when it has locked up.

One more thing: are there newer binaries than the ones from last August? I've read about issues being fixed and features being added on the discussion boards, but I can't seem to find recent builds that incorporate that stuff.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
B
ALso, about the fuzzy screen... screenshots always come out crisp, but the screen itself whines and is jittery (blurry) when I use Linux. The only time it does this for me under PalmOS is when it has locked up.



its a bad screen refresh speed...somebody didn't read the PXA LCD controller manual...
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:21 PM   #32
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its a bad screen refresh speed...somebody didn't read the PXA LCD controller manual...


There isnt any "PXA LCD controller manual" ... this is all in pxa developer manual, but whatever ... this issue is fixed and if you feel like it still whines, you can change it on runtime.
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
Bluetooth/IrDA: I have no machine with a bluetooth PPP gateway, and no phone with Bluetooth. I have no devices other than handhelds and remote controls that use IrDA. USB kinda defeats the purpose, as you have to be tethered to a machine that has a 1280x1024 screen and a full web browser already, and isn't crippled by a USB 1.1 connection. I think you and dmitry are talking at cross purposes -- Dmitry is saying he wants something that works the way he does, and you are saying TX Linux matches PalmOS almost feature for feature.

Embedded Linux surpasses any other embedded platform, there is no doubt about it. If it comes to handhelds, linux already surpassed both WM and PalmOS in both performance and usability. Why should you use zillions of mutually incompatible platforms on zillions devices when you can use one that runs everywhere the same way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
To put it another way: there's a reason (beyond marketing) that people choose the iPod over Creative products.

That being said, I look forward to your WiFi driver

Thanks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
ALso, about the fuzzy screen... screenshots always come out crisp, but the screen itself whines and is jittery (blurry) when I use Linux. The only time it does this for me under PalmOS is when it has locked up.

This is already fixed and LCCR3 can be even set on runtime. The screenshots were made from normal usage, I just added some fake contacts since I dont want to share mine ;]

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
One more thing: are there newer binaries than the ones from last August? I've read about issues being fixed and features being added on the discussion boards, but I can't seem to find recent builds that incorporate that stuff.


You can download TESTING releases here http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~miska - but they are really testing, we are preparing new official release with many new features soon.

Feel free to visit us on irc channel - irc.freenode.net #hackndev
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:58 PM   #34
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If it counts for anything, my analysis of Linux on Palm was the sourceforge build so it is, imho outdated. I will try to download that T|X build from miskas place tongiht.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:06 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marex
Embedded Linux surpasses any other embedded platform, there is no doubt about it. If it comes to handhelds, linux already surpassed both WM and PalmOS in both performance and usability. Why should you use zillions of mutually incompatible platforms on zillions devices when you can use one that runs everywhere the same way?

That's a pretty broad statement. There are many embedded systems that surpass Linux in their own niche; for one thing, Linux isn't a RTOS. However, as far as consumer embedded devices go, you're probably correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marex
This is already fixed and LCCR3 can be even set on runtime. The screenshots were made from normal usage, I just added some fake contacts since I dont want to share mine ;]

You can download TESTING releases here http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~miska - but they are really testing, we are preparing new official release with many new features soon.

Feel free to visit us on irc channel - irc.freenode.net #hackndev


Sounds good; however, when booting the image on your site, I get "kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(254,2)." The screen's no longer fuzzy though; just the screen whine and a very slight refresh flicker.

By the way: is there some specific reason for the bootloader to fail when the USB cable is plugged in?
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:46 AM   #36
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I get a kernal panic too...
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:06 PM   #37
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There has been a problem with specific mmc/sd cards... You might wan't to try another one.

The latest linux kernel is real-time btw. It's just a matter of time before everything else catches up. But I agree that mainstream distros (even embedded) won't easily beat systems that are designed bottom-up to be real time...
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:33 PM   #38
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I get a kernal panic too...


it is unofficial and testing, you have been warned ... I already contacted Miska to fix it asap
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Em
I get "kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(254,2)." The screen's no longer fuzzy though; just the screen whine and a very slight refresh flicker.

By the way: is there some specific reason for the bootloader to fail when the USB cable is plugged in?


-try dropping the root= option from kernel commandline
-no, there isnt any such reason ... it should boot no matter in what state the usb is

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Old 07-11-2007, 09:07 PM   #40
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My mistake :-( I accidentally deleted my Cocoboot and replaced it with another version. Bug fixed and there is new version on the web where Cocoboot doesn't have root=blabla by default...
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