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06-14-2006, 09:08 PM
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#1 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 93
 |  SD Card Speed
OK, just started using my brand new TX (transitioned from a LD) and have a few questions regarding SD card selections. I never really worried about a large SD card before due to the capacity of my LD. Any advice on getting a SD card, is card speed really going to be an issue with a pda? Are some more reliable than others?
I really like the convenience of the Sandisk Ultra II SD Plus with the USB connector built in, anyone been using one of these?
TIA | 
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06-15-2006, 06:35 AM
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#2 | | Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 159
| I have a few different SD cards and there appears to be some access speed differences that I experience (especially with larger or more complex files) but none of them cause me angst.
I have an SD card, a Kingston card and a generic 'My Flash' card - this bought simply because it was cheap like borscht for its size. I've not noticed any substantial access differences between the SD and the Kingston (granted, they are also the same size) while the My Flash appears to offer a tiny bit of a lag on some files and programs - but its also 4x larger than the others, if that makes a different in flash....
I've not tried the Ultra or USB connector. | |
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06-15-2006, 07:30 AM
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#3 | | Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 359
| My smaller cards of various brands have all performed plenty well enough. I have tried two different 4GB cards though, and the Transcend is FAR better than the TopRam card. The TopRam card crashes the TX if you use FileZ to delete a large file. Also, it will not FF or Rewind in TCPMP very quickly at all. It is also slow at accessing articles in my downloaded 1.8GB Wikipedia/TomeRaider program. The Transcend card, on the other hand, works well and is fast at all the above. | |
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06-15-2006, 08:11 AM
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#4 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 927
| Most cards will show their difference in write speed. For example, my Lexar 32x (which is only 1GB) gets written to twice as fast as my Adata 50x (which is a larger but still FAT16 formatted 2GB). Read speeds are about the same (with the Lexar I think even edging it out a little on that test).
I've had good luck with the Lexar 32x cards (the ones made in the US or Japan (blue) and not the ones made in China (black) which for some reason actually perform much slower), and not so good luck with the Sandisks, but those were the original speed Sandisks (not the Ultra-anything), and I've heard better reviews of the Ultra II's and III's.
__________________
Josh
Current: T|X, X51v, Q
Previous: Palm Personal, Palm IIIxe, TRGPro, Handera H330, Sony T615c, NX70v, Zaurus SL5500, iPAQ 3955, NX80, rx3715 (second try), T|T3, T|T5 (3rd one in the warranty period, aka "the brick")
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06-15-2006, 09:02 AM
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#5 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| My AData 150x 4GB is fast and I haven't noticed any lag. Below are the VFSMark results for the card: Quote:
VFSMark Results
File Create: 126%
File Delete: 46%
File Write: 106%
File Read: 539%
File Seek: 1685%
DB Export: 63%
DB Import: 200%
Record Access: 1096%
Resource Access: 1010%
VFSMark: 541
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On The other hand my 512mb SanDisk card had these marks: Quote:
VFSMark Results
File Create: 162%
File Delete: 108%
File Write: 42%
File Read: 104%
File Seek: 245%
DB Export: 54%
DB Import: 275%
Record Access: 212%
Resource Access: 212%
VFSMark: 157
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06-15-2006, 11:32 AM
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#6 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 927
| If that's a non-Ultra Sandisk, then that's inline with what's to be expected. The non-Ultra's were bad, especially on write speed. The Ultra Sandisks are much better (along the lines of Panasonic's normal cards, I believe).
__________________
Josh
Current: T|X, X51v, Q
Previous: Palm Personal, Palm IIIxe, TRGPro, Handera H330, Sony T615c, NX70v, Zaurus SL5500, iPAQ 3955, NX80, rx3715 (second try), T|T3, T|T5 (3rd one in the warranty period, aka "the brick")
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06-15-2006, 11:43 AM
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#7 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| Quote: | Originally Posted by applejosh If that's a non-Ultra Sandisk, then that's inline with what's to be expected. The non-Ultra's were bad, especially on write speed. The Ultra Sandisks are much better (along the lines of Panasonic's normal cards, I believe). |
That is correct my 512mb is not an ultra. BTW, if ou want to check your card's speed here is the link to VFSMark 1.1 . | |
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06-15-2006, 12:07 PM
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#8 | | LANDROS
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal
Posts: 47
| the Sandisk Ultra II SD Plus with the USB connector built-in only 1GB , it is something amazing ... i've been using it and this SD card is the best one ......
And you don't need to bring your card reader everywhere or look for a laptop with a card reader ..Tha's cool ....
__________________
PALM DOCTOR...
T.E... T.C....TX ASUS A3...
.. Samsung E 600...Nokia 6101 Nokia 6820 SonyEricsson T630..Z 22 ..M515..
I love Palm ...
La vie est belle.. | |
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06-15-2006, 12:47 PM
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#9 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| Quote: | Originally Posted by LANDROS the Sandisk Ultra II SD Plus with the USB connector built-in only 1GB , it is something amazing ... i've been using it and this SD card is the best one ......
And you don't need to bring your card reader everywhere or look for a laptop with a card reader ..Tha's cool .... |
I use CardReader, and previously have used CardExport II. I have the veersatility of being able to have any car din my TX read by most computers (I think this works with Macs as well, but I don't have so I haven't tested it). | |
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06-15-2006, 04:58 PM
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#10 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 927
| What if you forget your hotsync cable? 
__________________
Josh
Current: T|X, X51v, Q
Previous: Palm Personal, Palm IIIxe, TRGPro, Handera H330, Sony T615c, NX70v, Zaurus SL5500, iPAQ 3955, NX80, rx3715 (second try), T|T3, T|T5 (3rd one in the warranty period, aka "the brick")
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06-15-2006, 06:58 PM
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#11 | | Palm Junkie
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 795
| Sandisk Ultra II and II Plus are great, so is Sandisk Extreme III, which is faster and tougher (built for "extreme" environments) The Extreme has a lifetime warranty. I'm not sure that is the case with the Ultras. If 1 Gig will do ya, I'd get the Ultra II Plus, which even has a blue status LED that works when plugged into a USB port and flashes when reading and writing.
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Palm V, Vx, 505, 515, Sony NX70, Palm TC, T3,T5, Treo 650 & 680, Palm TX
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" - Thomas Jefferson | |
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06-16-2006, 11:51 AM
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#12 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| Quote: | Originally Posted by applejosh What if you forget your hotsync cable? |
I have a retractable hotsync cable I carry everywhere - don't you?
Oh and my 4gb 150mhz adata card has a lifetime warranty! | |
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06-23-2006, 11:23 AM
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#13 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5
| Hi Superdude at al.
I am a newbie and I have a new TX, it says that it can support max 2G, but I don't know what to do to make it work with 4G card. pls help. Thank you very much. | |
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06-23-2006, 12:33 PM
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#14 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| Quote: | Originally Posted by chuoitieu Hi Superdude at al.
I am a newbie and I have a new TX, it says that it can support max 2G, but I don't know what to do to make it work with 4G card. pls help. Thank you very much. |
Palm just says that. Just buy a 4gb card, best to format it in the TX - but take any software that might come with the card off it first. Then your good to go.
to format use the card info app from palm, tap the titlebar to get options, select format. | |
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07-20-2006, 10:00 AM
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#15 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Folks, it is very strange that using a 2 Gb Ultra II Sandisk SD card, I´m getting only 16% in File Write (with VFS Mark), with a TX.
Could it be a format issue? How can I check if it is FAT16 or FAT32?
Any comments?
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-20-2006, 10:28 AM
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#16 | | It's superdad!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 2,945
| Quote: | Originally Posted by alex_herrero Folks, it is very strange that using a 2 Gb Ultra II Sandisk SD card, I´m getting only 16% in File Write (with VFS Mark), with a TX.
Could it be a format issue? How can I check if it is FAT16 or FAT32?
Any comments? |
That is strange. My file write on san disk sd cards have ranged from 42% to 112% on 3 different cards ranging from 32 - 512mb. My A-Data 4gb is not much better with a 116% file write speed. 16% is definitely too low. Did you format it before using it? If not it may be formatted as a FAT16. If you backup all your data and format it in your TX (this does not take very long with the CardInfo app from palm), it formats as FAT32. | |
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07-20-2006, 11:05 AM
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#17 | | Oxidants happen.
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,437
| Anybody know where can I get a copy of VFS Mark? the link on freewarepalm.com is dead?
__________________
Palm TX + 2 Gb UltraII SD
When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. | |
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07-20-2006, 11:15 AM
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#18 | | Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: SW, VA, USA
Posts: 938
| Quote: | Originally Posted by PinCushionQueen Anybody know where can I get a copy of VFS Mark? the link on freewarepalm.com is dead? | Searching on kopsisengineering.com, it appears that it has moved. It now appears to be off of this page. | |
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07-20-2006, 05:18 PM
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#19 | | Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 193
| [QUOTE=Gregte]... and the Transcend is FAR better than the TopRam card. The TopRam card crashes the TX if you use FileZ to delete a large file. Also, it will not FF or Rewind in TCPMP very quickly at all. It is also slow at accessing articles in my downloaded 1.8GB Wikipedia/TomeRaider program. QUOTE]
I second that. Locks up and crashes when trying to access large iSilo files and/or deleting or moving large files in FIleZ, Resco Explorer or anything else for that matter. I guess you get what you pay for.
You can fix it using Error Checking in Properties when right clicking on it in My Computer. | |
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07-20-2006, 05:41 PM
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#20 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Quote: | Originally Posted by cyberdude That is strange. My file write on san disk sd cards have ranged from 42% to 112% on 3 different cards ranging from 32 - 512mb. My A-Data 4gb is not much better with a 116% file write speed. 16% is definitely too low. Did you format it before using it? If not it may be formatted as a FAT16. If you backup all your data and format it in your TX (this does not take very long with the CardInfo app from palm), it formats as FAT32. |
Thanks cyberdude. You seems to be always there when needed... Well, when I format the card with CardInfo, my PC shows it as FAT (using DriveMode). The strange thins is that the FIRST TIME I use CardSpeed to test it, it says "Excellent", but any other time I run it, it says "poor". It is driving me mad...
Maybe I should re-format it as FAT32 using my computer... Any comments on this?
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-20-2006, 06:27 PM
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#21 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| VFSmark
Results of VFSmark for my 3 SD cards...
------------------------------------------------
1033 Transcend 2GB
VFSMark Results
File Create: 66%
File Delete: 52%
File Write: 9% <--this seems kind of slow!
File Read: 539%
File Seek: 5900%
DB Export: 42%
DB Import: 247%
Record Access: 1167%
Resource Access: 1280%
VFSMark: 1033
Note - Used for backups using NVbackup.
$29.95 on sale @Frys San Diego
----------------------------------------------------
1330 pqi Hi-speed 60 2GB
VFSMark Results
File Create: 2155%
File Delete: 2428%
File Write: 56%
File Read: 539%
File Seek: 3933%
DB Export: 214%
DB Import: 247%
Record Access: 1167%
Resource Access: 1238%
VFSMark: 1330
Note - Used for video clips
$39.95 on sale @Frys San Diego
---------------------------------------------------
851 Sandisk Ultra II 1GB
VFSMark Results
File Create: 204%
File Delete: 161%
File Write: 99%
File Read: 533%
File Seek: 3933%
DB Export: 78%
DB Import: 248%
Record Access: 1206%
Resource Access: 1200%
VFSMark: 851
Note - general use low overall mark, but fast R/W.
$49.95 Costco
------------------------------------------------------------
Stock T|X, no overclocking. Plugged in to charger.
VFSmark will export the results to a memo, saves a lot of typing.
__________________
PaPiTo Paul
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07-20-2006, 08:47 PM
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#22 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Well, that's what's driving me mad: there are many reviews with Ultra II SanDisk with faster writing rates...
papitopaul, is your Ultra II FAT or FAT32?
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-20-2006, 09:05 PM
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#23 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Quote: | Originally Posted by alex_herrero papitopaul, is your Ultra II FAT or FAT32? |
I just checked, and they are all formatted FAT. I formatted and labeled all 3 cards in the T|X.
EDIT: Ran tests several times on the SanDisk II card: Code: Fcreate 204 337 335 238 173
Fdelete 161 159 164 165 152
Fwrite 99 118 118 103 124
Fread 533 533 533 539 533
Fseek 3933 5900 3933 3933 3933
DBexp 78 53 53 187 53
DBimp 248 122 246 250 245
RcdAcc 1206 1167 1206 1206 1248
RsrcAcc 1200 1238 1200 1280 1280
VFSmark 851 1069 865 877 860
The last test was with WIFI on, just for jollies. It had the best write. Go figure.
__________________
PaPiTo Paul
Last edited by papitopaul : 07-20-2006 at 09:57 PM.
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07-21-2006, 08:52 AM
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#24 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Well, here are mine, always a TX with a Sandisk 2 Gb Ultra II, formatted as FAT with Palm CardInfo:
Fcreate 114
Fdelete 94
Fwrite 16 <-- This one is very different from papitopaul's test...
Fread 545
Fseek 3933
DBexp 75
DBimp 170
RcdAcc 1248
RsrcAcc 1280
VFSmark 831
By the way, what is the name of the card, when you see it in Card Info? Mine says: Quote:
ASWIN
Unknown
Secure Digital Card
Device Id: SWIN_0000285F100707
|
Maybe it is some app that's making trouble... Any clue would be appreciated!
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 09:13 AM
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#25 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Quote: | Originally Posted by alex_herrero
Fwrite 16 <-- This one is very different from papitopaul's test...
By the way, what is the name of the card, when you see it in Card Info? Mine says:
Maybe it is some app that's making trouble... Any clue would be appreciated! |
Fwrite 16 is almost twice as fast as my Transend 2G card 
Card: 1GSD01 <-The label I gave it when formatting.
Type: Secure Digital card
more info... Quote:
SD01G
Sandisk
Secure Digital Card
Device Id: SD01G_5096D056800407
|
Power off/on Reset and rerun test several time. Try with WIFI on. I got the best write time with WIFI on.
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PaPiTo Paul
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07-21-2006, 09:17 AM
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#26 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Quote: | Originally Posted by papitopaul SD01G
Sandisk
Secure Digital Card
Device Id: SD01G_5096D056800407 |
Are these the last 4 lines of what your CardInfo says? That is strange... Maybe mine is not an Ultra II...? 
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 09:29 AM
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#27 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Yes, last 4 lines. ASWIN? Is that also your label?
Hmm. Maybe not a Sandisk? If you BOUGHT it in China, I could understand. They keep the junk there and do not export.
On the back of my Sandisk: BB0610304597B MADE IN CHINA.
Maybe Sandisk is outsourcing to multiple manufacturers?
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PaPiTo Paul
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07-21-2006, 09:44 AM
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#28 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| No, that´s not my label... I´ve just called Technical Support on US, and they told me that with the Id that I provided, it is not a valid product... I´ll call my provider and have a chat with him...
Thanks for your data and help!
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 09:49 AM
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#29 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Did a quick Google on ASWIN... 1st hit:
Aswin is the trade name of the effective insecticide and pesticide products and also the name of the non-toxic products.
I got my card at Costco. They are very good about returns. No questions asked.
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PaPiTo Paul
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07-21-2006, 10:01 AM
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#30 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Quote: | Originally Posted by papitopaul Did a quick Google on ASWIN... 1st hit:
Aswin is the trade name of the effective insecticide and pesticide products and also the name of the non-toxic products. |
Well, I´m actuall doing the same thing... Google is great...
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 10:13 AM
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#31 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
|
Well, this is something I found on a review here: Quote: |
The seller was excellent! The problem is the manufacturer. After getting two bad Sandisk Ultra II 2GB Secure Digital cardsfrom different sellers, I did some researchandfound out the same factorymakesthe bogus cards on the night shift. Two huge shipments were mismarked and sent to legit businesses all over the U.S. You can verify the serial numbers through Sandisk's website tech help. The fact that Sandisk knowingly allows this to occur in their facility makes me want to shy away from a dishonest business.Good-bye Sandisk, hello PNY.
| 
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 11:13 AM
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#32 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Card info:
Label: Kingston Elite Pro 50x (card too full (pictures) to run VFSmark)
SQ01G
Panasonic
SQ01G_....
label: Transcend 2GB
SDC
Unknown
SDC_....
label: pqi Hi-Speed 60
SD
Unknown
SD_....
label: Sandisk 1GB
SD01G
Sandisk
SD01G_005B....
label: Canon MultiMedia Card, MMC-16M
16M
Hitachi
MultiMedia Card <-came with camera
16M_8934....
label: LEXAR media 64MB
S064B
Panasonic
S064B_26AD....
label: 32 mb Memorex
SD032
Toshiba
SD032_4416....
I have more SD/MMC cards somewhere. I really need to get them all in one place.
Bogus cards on the night shift? Same factory? May really be a unit sorting problem and mis-labeling if it is really the same factory, tools, raw materials.
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PaPiTo Paul
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07-21-2006, 11:33 AM
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#33 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Quote: | Originally Posted by papitopaul Bogus cards on the night shift? Same factory? May really be a unit sorting problem and mis-labeling if it is really the same factory, tools, raw materials. |
The thing is their Tech Support told me that this is not a product of SanDisk, using the card serial Id...
Anyway, thank your for your great support!
__________________
-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4 | |
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07-21-2006, 12:52 PM
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#34 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38
| Well, google is great, as I said...
If you look deep enough, you will find whatever you search for. It seems that there is already a website with photographs and everything on this subject! First Site Second Site Forum
Beware! There are many of us that bought things like this...
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-----BEGIN PALM CODE BLOCK-----[Version: 1.1]
PG f+ h+ b+ p+ o+ m++ F- v+ g+ k+ r++ c++ n++ t+ a++ G E+ M+ DP{TX}
------END PALM CODE BLOCK------
[PDA]TX(Palm)+SD512Mb(Kingston)// [Mobile]T637(SE)+BTHBH-600(SE)// [Work]PIV3.40MhzHT+1GbRAM+80GbHD+W2kSP4
Last edited by alex_herrero : 07-21-2006 at 01:11 PM.
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07-21-2006, 01:46 PM
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#35 | | Registered User
Join Date: May 2006 Location: Apopka, Florida
Posts: 105
| Took a look at the links. So there ARE fake SD cards. The cards I got a Fry's in San Diego were a very good price and I don't expect to have a lifetime warrantee on them. I put stuff on them I don't expect to keep anyhow.
China is notorious for pirate-ware. I was there a couple of years ago, and you could get Nalgene(TM?) water bottles for next to nothing. BUT they would shatter if dropped. The story goes, that someone left their water bottle in a taxi, and 24 hours later, the whole country was flooded with them!
Buyer beware!
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