1SRC Podcast FortyFour

[Jeff Kirvin]

Ed Colligan's multi-piece solution, Grassnet's Palm Quick Reference Guide raffle and this week's 1SRC editorial: "And, not Or". Not entirely sure how that ended up taking 62 minutes, but I think it might have something to do with this week's special guests: Alan Grassia of Grassnet's Tech Talk podcast and Tyler Faux of Ludus Technology and the Palm Addict Podcast! [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1255)]

[Alan G]

Jeff wrote:
Not entirely sure how that ended up taking 62 minutes, but I think it might have something to do with this week's special guests: Alan Grassia of Grassnet's Tech Talk podcast and Tyler Faux of Ludus Technology and the Palm Addict Podcast!

Ok, I'll take the blame here. My off topic powers are only exceeded by my ability to carry mobile tech in my utility belt!

Alan G

[Legodude522]

Ah just in time for the insominiac now taht it is 11pm and your podcast just came out. Lets see how long it takes Jeff Kirvin to put me to sleep. I got school tomorrow plus I got to get my rotc uniform out tomorrow morning.

[JAmerican]

Umm, SMS when declining a call. Does multitasking have to do anything with this???

MAC OS seems to be following Palm now. They might see Palm's success and modify their position on their proprietary hardware. Maybe :). I'd get Mac in a second and dual boot it with Windows. Sharky has the right idea :)

BTW, the video iPod looks very weird. Also, if they are making this device landscape, why didn't they make the nano landscape?? Screen would have been larger, use of more screen real estate. Its cheap anyway. Will the video iPod have the same quality.

LOL... Friggin Gates.

My childish ears... lol.

Just a thought, I have a feeling the TX is the last tungsten, hence the name TX. End of the line. The Mobile Manager line will replace it.

JAmerican

[Jimmie Geddes]

any idea of when we could possibly see a treo 700p? Great podcast guys!

[JAmerican]

Um, I'd say either 2006 4th quarter or early 2007. Palm would not release a device with WM in the spring/summer and then release a Palm device that has basically the same features around the same time. WM and Verizon would be very unhappy with that.

JAmerican

[Alan G]

Jimmie Geddes wrote:
any idea of when we could possibly see a treo 700p?

I don't expect to see the 700p until next year sometime. Right now, the focus is on getting the 700w finished (software wise) and out the door. The 700p will come after that. Remember, Palm has given us signs that more devices are coming more quickly than they have in the past.

Alan G

[Alan G]

JAmerica wrote:
Palm would not release a device with WM in the spring/summer and then release a Palm device that has basically the same features around the same time.

We don't know what the feature set of the 700p devices will be. Palm has a lot of stuff going on in their labs. I don't think that the feature sets will be identical between the 700w and the 700p. We may see the 'p' sooner than the end of next year. Remember, from what was hinted at during the press conference, Verizon has an exclusive on the 700w, but I expect that deal to end 90 - 180 after the 700w is actually launched. We could see the 700p as early as the middle of 2006. Since the 700p won't be a WM device, we may see it even earlier than that.

Alan G

[Sharkk717]

Hey guys! yeah, what a fun podcast.

>"Umm, SMS when declining a call. Does multitasking have to do anything with this???"

No, but the feature is still very important, and moreso the fact that Palm has been unable to implement it...

cheers, tyler

ps: Alan! did the yankees really lose??

[strider_mt2k]

Great 'cast fellas!
I really like the mix of multiple views when you have guests, Jeff.
Heck the three of you could also do a weekly show together with NO down side whatsoever.
(Well for us listeners, scheduling for you guys might be problematic.)

Also, the backround whine is back, but much much lower than in the past. Overall audio quality has improved greatly however, so I think you're just looking at a minor tweak to fix it.

NEW RULE:
Non-gamers shouldn't discuss gaming. -ever
You said it yourselves, you have better things to do. -stick to them.
You don't hear gamers trying to tackle the blundering corporate squaredance that is Palm Inc.. -and to be honest who would want to???


While I'm a PalmOS user and enthusiast, I can't help but be curious about what's happening on the WM side.
After all, Palm is introducing WM.
Microsoft isn't introducing PalmOS!

I can't be the only one who's curious.
All this hoopla over a WM Treo doesn't do anything for PalmOS.

"AND" is just fine and dandy for Palm the company.
It's not really an "AND" proposition for most consumers.

THEY won't be carrying two different OS machines, it's simply not going to happen.

They are going to go with one, and for the most part stick to it.


What arguments would you make pro and con to a total noob consumer who walks up and asks, "What's the difference between Palm OS and Windows Mobile, and why should I choose one or the other?" ?

THAT'S what is happening at the street level guys.

___
I'd like to point out that I am disagreeing with some of Jeff, Alan and Tyler's points without resorting to personal attacks or political references or other non-essential, childish BS.

We leave the tabloid stuff to the tabloid sites.

[Jeff Kirvin]

The whine is due to my being back to my crap-*** sound card headset. For some reason, my USB headset introduced a rumbling wind tunnel noise this week. I hate sound engineering...

The difference between WM and Palm OS Treos comes down to resolution, speed and software. I can't really tell you what is "best" without knowing what you need to do. The answer will be different for everyone.

As I said in the cast, for me it comes down to resolution. I have a ton of WM software from when I was a Pocket PC user, so it's not a big deal to use uBook instead of PalmFiction, WMP instead of Pocket Tunes. But I need a high-resolution screen for great ebook typography more than I need fast downloads. So for me, the Treo 650 trumps the Treo 700w. Your mileage may vary.

[Jimmie Geddes]

See with me it comes down to the OS. When I had an ipaq it had a better screen than my m505 that made me switch, but I switched back from the ipaq to a m515. I know it was a different os, and wm 5 is probably better than my old ipaq, but OS is too important. Palm is just so much more inuitive, I've heard Alan say this as well, when you pick up a Palm you just know how to use it, not that I wouldn't know how to use a windows mobile device, I have used amost all the ppc os'es I get confused with all the different names. I had an ipaq 3650(ppc2000 & 2002), 3850(ppc2002), and 4150(windows mobile 2003) I always came back to Palm. This is just my opinion:)

[craigdts]

Great podcast.

Alan - I like what u say about palm competing with itself. Imagine if there are 2 or even 3 divisions based upon OS in Palm, Inc. First I wonder how Palm the company will handle that rivalry (culture) and secondly how much employees are taking sides. It eventually becomes my side is best because my job depends upon it!

Jeff- regarding Research In Motion's Blackberry revenue. Last time I heard anything on it something like over 80% of their revenue was from hardware sales. I always imagined that was primarily blackberry devices. Under their current model I'm not sure that rimm would be able to make it if, suddenly, a major shift occurred where other manufacturers started producing BB devices. It would be a major shift in business strategy. Right now I think they sell BB devices for $400? compared to what palm sells for $400. Their profits margin must be very large to say the least. What happens when others start cutting into it? I've always viewed RIM as a house of cards ready to fall (especially with a stock market value of around $10 billion)! Time will tell though, and again I'm not sure what percentage of hardware revenue includes servers. But I do know RIM loves to publish the number of BB devices it sold. Furthermore the fact that they are working hard to improve BB devices means they are not very willing to give up their revenue from them. RIM is in a difficult position, almost an identity crisis. Palm = hardware, MSFT = software, RIM = both? eventually they will need to choose one or they lose both.

[PDAJah]

Jeff & Alan, just for the record this is what I carry around:

- normal work day: Treo 650 (for calls & quick notes), LD (for audiobook/ebook/PIM/podcasts), laptop and Nokia digital pen (so I can save hand written notes as jpegs)
- last holiday: Treo 650, Nokia 9500 (spare so that I could use 2 SIMs), Sony PSP (for watching videos), LD & laptop

re: Palm and PalmSource/Access

I think PalmSource must have some really good stuff in development, why else would Motorola (who sell Linux devices in China), Nokia (who seem to want an alternative to Symbian), Access & Palm be so interested? I think we should expect a Linux based Smartphone OS say late next year from PalmSource. Also this means Palm may use this OS for standard PDAs.

And thanks for a wondeful and fun podcast

[Jimmie Geddes]

This is what I carry:
-normal day: Treo 650, iPod nano
-vacation: Treo 650, Powerbook, iPod nano, iPod 60GB
Today my Treo 650 is my the crutch for my Powerbook since my DSL modem died

[craigdts]

What do you think is the likelihood that Palm does linux on their own, without palmsource and does their own user interface?

[Jeff Kirvin]

What do you think is the likelihood that Palm does linux on their own, without palmsource and does their own user interface?
I'd say about 50/50. We know they're hiring lots of linux programmers, and they can make a deal with Monta Vista just as easily as anyone else.

[Jeff Kirvin]

This is what I carry:
-normal day: Treo 650, iPod nano
-vacation: Treo 650, Powerbook, iPod nano, iPod 60GB
Today my Treo 650 is my the crutch for my Powerbook since my DSL modem died
My standard loadout:

Every day, working or not: Treo 650.

That's it. I might add a folding IR keyboard. Sometimes. Maybe. But not yet.

[Maticek]

Everyday load (or school version if you want so): Lifedrive, the universal wireless keyboard, SE K700i. And most of the time also the iPod color 20.

Vacation: digicam, all of the above, laptop, a portable gaming console and a bunch of chargers (can't they make one for all devices?).

[Maticek]

One more thing about Palm expanding their userbase with different OSes.

It seems to me that over here in europe, Palm is not strong at all. At least the part I come from, Slovenia and it's neighbours (actually bought all my staff in austria because it was cheaper). The system of choice here is surely symbian. Most of digital organizer devices I see around here, are smartphones; Nokias from the S60 line and many SE P900/P910s. In fact I've seen a Treo only on the shelfs of a store.
I really doubt that symbian smartphone users are going to change to windows because of the Treo - a device only known by a few around here.

If I talk about handhelds with people and tell them that I'm a Palm user they mostely seem surprised. Palm doesn't really have a good name around here. As it turns out most of them have never really seen and more important used a palm device before, they just went for windows because of its ubiquitous presence in our life. The elder people probably recalled the memory of how hard it was to learn using windows on the pc for the first time.

I am really beginning to think that using palm os is more a state of mind thing, you can only achive simplicity if you really know what you need and what you can sacrifice. (Why do I need a fingerprint security sensor?)

[Jimmie Geddes]

forgot to include my gameboy micro in the above

[strider_mt2k]

forgot to include my gameboy micro in the above

Nice!

My loadout: (subject to change at any given time)

LG VX4500 phone
Sony PEG-TH55 PDA
Game Boy Micro
(the three amigos)


(Only more entertaining than the namesake movie.) :rolleyes:

[craigdts]

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm

"However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life."

"While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."

Now we are starting to hear 2 different stories from Palm.

1. We are platform agnostic. Multiple OSes OK.

2. At some point we want one platform

Go figure. What do u guys make of this?

[johnsoax]

My Weekday load:
Tungsten T3 and Motorola V330 plus foldable IR keyboard.
Dell Axim x50 and Nextel i60
Creative Nomad Zen Xtra 40 gig.

My Weekend load:
Tungsten T3 and Motorola V330 (with Nextel forwarded to it) plus sometimes the IR keyboard.

Vacation:
Weekday load, plus laptop, minus Nextel (forwarded to V330).

Looking forward to listening to this podcast. It sounds interesting. Hopefully the whine isn't too much. I will be listening with headphones vs my normal listening in the car (always listen on Monday mornings), as I am flying west next week.

[Jeff Kirvin]

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm

"However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life."

"While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."

Now we are starting to hear 2 different stories from Palm.

1. We are platform agnostic. Multiple OSes OK.

2. At some point we want one platform

Go figure. What do u guys make of this?
When I stop trembling with rage, I might have a coherent answer for you.

[craigdts]

When I stop trembling with rage, I might have a coherent answer for you.

The problem is this comes from Ken Wirt . . . at Palm.

Listening to your podcast I bought in to what you said. Now what the heck, Ken Wirt says we prefer one OS?

[Jeff Kirvin]

The problem is this comes from Ken Wirt . . . at Palm.

Listening to your podcast I bought in to what you said. Now what the heck, Ken Wirt says we prefer one OS?
It's possible Wirt is off the reservation, not speaking for the company. Or it's possible that Palm really is stupid.

If they allow themselves to be locked down to any one supplier, they're dead.

[craigdts]

As I've thought about this more . . . here is the problem as I see it.

PDAs are OK to make with any OS.

But Smartphones are dependent upon Carrier acceptance (This was a lesson learned well by Handspring-if carriers don't put them in store we don't sell them). If Verizon says WM, Palm says when. Will other carriers say we want you to standardize on WM too (reduce our support costs). If so Palm can't spend all the money developing a Palm Treo if carriers don't want it. At least one carrier needs to be behind it (like the Sprint treo 600), Treo 600 was in such demand that all major carriers in the US had to take it.

Unless there are carriers onboard with a new Palm Treo (my hope is its Sprint!) then Palm can afford to make it. But if sprint is also looking at the WM (sprint wants business customer bad, nextel anyone?) then there is not enough incentive for Palm to go ahead with the Palm Treo.

So is Sprint Palm OS's only hope? I use sprint and will buy the next palm treo if one comes out. So I'm hoping for it.

From a business standpoint, it seems Palm is right back where handspring was several years ago . . . Handspring made a decision that killed them (donna and Jeff) by going all out smartphone, dumping all PDAs (Note: Colligan was opposed to this strategy). They have to be careful that their PDA sales don't drop off the face of the earth while their smartphone sales ramp up. Not only that but their strategy also depends upon adapting to carriers, they are not totally free to go their own way. Carriers pose great problems, but also give them a sales channel.

It would be nice if this new product line your planning is something that will get palm back into retail (non carrier) stores. I think that would help provide some stability to palm.

How about a lifedrive that's actually a camera? Not just a camera companion. Or How about a 3G lifedrive that has a quality camera in it that you can send grandma pictures to her 3G lifedrive with simple SMS ease. Pics can be view directly from the lifedrive then. Well again this may prove to be too much. Does palm have the know-how to produce a top quality camera? Would it spread them too thin? (well at one point they didn't have cellular know how either) I would love to buy a product like this and I would recommend a Garnet based device like this to my family members.

I look forward to hearing what you think Palms next product is.

[sandshark]

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm
"While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."

Now we are starting to hear 2 different stories from Palm.

1. We are platform agnostic. Multiple OSes OK.

2. At some point we want one platform

Go figure. What do u guys make of this?

Sorry to say, I believe this is the most realistic assessment. It costs money (especially the manpower) to support multiple solutions. They can justify it now because windows mobile represents growth for them, and there are a tremendous amount of existing palm customers that are not ready to migrate away from the palm os. When Palm hits a saturation point, they'll likely want improve net income by streamlining to a single platform.

If they can differentiate themselves from HP and Dell, where they don't have to get into a price war, I think windows mobile will be the future for them. Meanwhile, if they sunset Palm OS, they will want keep the installed base very happy and allow for a slow migration so they hold on to the loyal customers well into the future.

This doesn't mean Palm OS and its third party software will simply keel over. Rather far from it. People stay with legacy solutions for as long as they serve them. As long as there is a critical mass of existing deployments, developers will be around to serve them.

[smoothjordan]

Excellent podcast, as usual. I think I'll keep a hold on my 650 until palm realeases a PALM OS Treo. I may have to live with the 650 forever. Anyways, Here is what I carry with me.

Daily Basis
-Treo 650
-IR Keyboard
-Sony PSP
-Nintendo DS
- Toshiba M35X-S3112 (laptop)
- Awesome laptop backpack by targus


Basically, that's what I have on me all the time :) The Tungsten E sits on the desk, wanting to be used, but can't force itself to go into my pocket. I carry enough, don't you think?

[Dick Tracy]

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm

"However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life."

"While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said."

Now we are starting to hear 2 different stories from Palm.

1. We are platform agnostic. Multiple OSes OK.

2. At some point we want one platform

Go figure. What do u guys make of this?


Author of the article has been drinking too much Gartner juice. Palm wants Palm OS on Linux. We'll have to see what happens product release wise in the interim.

[sandshark]

Author of the article has been drinking too much Gartner juice. Palm wants Palm OS on Linux. We'll have to see what happens product release wise in the interim.

The author probably was drinking too much Gartner juice. But why the Linux plug? I don't even know of any well known source feeding this Kool-Aid. I would love to see Cobalt come out so that we get a better multi-media experience and more stable applications. Why would I want a server os rather than an os optimized for a small footprint? Why do I have to give up my extremely fast application loading, small memory footprint, and manage-free processes for an os that is in name only similar to Red Hat?

For all we know, Palm is hesitant to upgrade to Cobalt or any future Palm OS because they have an advantageous licensing deal with Garnet and don't want to don't want to give up any more margin to Access. It could be all dollars and cents and we're wasting our time holding our breathe. Garnet fills my requirements and I find the ebook readers on this platform second to none. And its a heck of an OS compared to any of the phone os' out there. I'll cope with it. If Palm decides to move on, I'll cope with that too.

[Dick Tracy]

The Linux plug lies in the Analyst Day presentations where it was suggested there will be Treos at various price points. This exists shortly with heavily discounted 600s, lightly discounted 650s and full-price 700s available (looking at the consumer picture; Gartner wants corporate everyone on WM). Switching radios and features is expected to be more modular with POS on Linux kernel and require fewer man-hours to design and test, allowing for deployment more than three choices (and for PalmSource's other licensees to sell featurephones in China and the developing world). How these models will be assorted between consumer, small business and enterprise markets in different countries with different standards, I don't know, but I do see this as a feasible strategy.

[JAmerican]

My daily load:
UX50 & T610 <--That's it :)

Also, remember the HTC Universal, that thing you guys considered a brick... look here...

http://www.1src.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/911/sort/1/size/big/cat/504/page/

...not so much of a brick to me. :) Credit to Sneezy for pics

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

Re: Palm's Third Business

Here is what I want from my next Palm device:

- Massive storage, say 60GB. I want to use this to store all my digital data and use it to "feed" my other devices (PSP, iPod, vPod, camera cell phone, music cell phone, etc)
- Standard connections & drivers, that is, mini USB and WireFire (to connect to other devices)
- Standard radio, that is, GSM, EDGE, 3G, WiFi, BT. I need this to download my digital purchases
- Standard media card bay, that is, SD, MS & CF
- High res screen so that I can use my Palm to view/play all my digital data in all standard formats

This new Palm should be slightly larger than the LD, perhaps around the size of the JasJar but a little "thicker" but not a camshell design and no keyboard.

[JAmerican]

Re: Palm's Third Business

Here is what I want from my next Palm device:

- Massive storage, say 60GB. I want to use this to store all my digital data and use it to "feed" my other devices (PSP, iPod, vPod, camera cell phone, music cell phone, etc)
- Standard connections & drivers, that is, mini USB and WireFire (to connect to other devices)
- Standard radio, that is, GSM, EDGE, 3G, WiFi, BT. I need this to download my digital purchases
- Standard media card bay, that is, SD, MS & CF
- High res screen so that I can use my Palm to view/play all my digital data in all standard formats

This new Palm should be slightly larger than the LD, perhaps around the size of the JasJar but a little "thicker" but not a camshell design and no keyboard.

What I want is this...

http://jamerican.net/1src/HTC-UX.jpg

JAmerican

[JAmerican]

Re: Palm's Third Business

Here is what I want from my next Palm device:

- Massive storage, say 60GB. I want to use this to store all my digital data and use it to "feed" my other devices (PSP, iPod, vPod, camera cell phone, music cell phone, etc)
- Standard connections & drivers, that is, mini USB and WireFire (to connect to other devices)
- Standard radio, that is, GSM, EDGE, 3G, WiFi, BT. I need this to download my digital purchases
- Standard media card bay, that is, SD, MS & CF
- High res screen so that I can use my Palm to view/play all my digital data in all standard formats

This new Palm should be slightly larger than the LD, perhaps around the size of the JasJar but a little "thicker" but not a camshell design and no keyboard.

The jasjar is not that large. Look...

http://www.1src.com/gallery/data/504/5768IMG_0019.JPG

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

@Jamerican, I have ordered a JJ (should have it next week) but I know it falls short in a number of areas, especially the very low on-board memory and poor BT implementation (does not support file transfer). Also the browser is not that quick for a 520Mhz device. I think Plam can do a much better job of exploiting the power of the hardware. But it is interestiing that WM5 does have support for HDDs.

[JAmerican]

@Jamerican, I have ordered a JJ (should have it next week) but I know it falls short in a number of areas, especially the very low on-board memory and poor BT implementation (does not support file transfer). Also the browser is not that quick for a 520Mhz device. I think Plam can do a much better job of exploiting the power of the hardware. But it is interestiing that WM5 does have support for HDDs.

There is an update for the BT drivers. The on-board memory is the same as that of a Dell Axim x51v. Thats usual for the first devices that come out for WM5 now. I don't think the reviews were right becasue a forum member who does own a JASJAR says the internet is much quicker than the UX. The member is Sneezy.

JAmerican

[Jimmie Geddes]

Jamerican,
you've got a jasjar? How do you like it?

[Jimmie Geddes]

I've gotta say it is smaller than I expected. I am not condoning Windows Mobile :)

[strider_mt2k]

How small can it be?

Look how much it stretched out the forum!!

;)

[JAmerican]

Jamerican,
you've got a jasjar? How do you like it?

No a member by the nick Sneezy got one. Look in the UX forums.

JAmerican

[Jimmie Geddes]

I should have known, you love your ux-50 too much:)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Re: Palm's Third Business

Here is what I want from my next Palm device:

- Massive storage, say 60GB. I want to use this to store all my digital data and use it to "feed" my other devices (PSP, iPod, vPod, camera cell phone, music cell phone, etc)
- Standard connections & drivers, that is, mini USB and WireFire (to connect to other devices)
- Standard radio, that is, GSM, EDGE, 3G, WiFi, BT. I need this to download my digital purchases
- Standard media card bay, that is, SD, MS & CF
- High res screen so that I can use my Palm to view/play all my digital data in all standard formats

This new Palm should be slightly larger than the LD, perhaps around the size of the JasJar but a little "thicker" but not a camshell design and no keyboard.
You're probably close on the form factor. But as far as capabilities go, think bigger. This isn't a PDA, it isn't a smartphone, but it does have to do with mobile computing.

[PDAJah]

Jeff, looking forward to seeing your predictions on Palm's "third business" in your weekly editorial.
:)

[craigdts]

We have a confirmation today on the importance of the device market. Trading on RIMM (research in motion - makers of blackberry) has been halted today on fears they will not be able to sell BBs anymore in US. This would be huge for Palm if it happens. It is scary that there stock was halted (meaning you can't trade it now). Go to yahoo finance and take a look at it, symbol RIMM.

But either way - RIM is as dependent on handheld hardware sales (70% of revenue) as Palm is, yet to me Palm is on the rise. You can see from this that Palm's position in the handheld market is highly valued by other companies. Like Jeff says Palms future has never looked brighter, we may be nearing an explosion in smartphone/pda usage, the one that Palm originally envisioned - they just didn't have the killer app - voice!

[madmaxmedia]

Their 3rd line is that multimedia/mobile computer type device that Jeff Hawkins has talked about, right?

I would feel a lot more confident in Palm if the LifeDrive product had been a little smoother. OTOH, they should only learn from their mistakes.

The main barriers here will be the iPod (which is gradually growing into the same device with great usability) and increasingly capable cell phones. Not your corporate smartphones, but consumer phones that have increasingly larger storage, higher-resolution screens and cameras, and faster and cheaper data every year...

The biggest advantage those 2 devices have is user base and penetration. For Palm to succeed in this new area, they will have to devise a new UI, not just Cobalt or Win Mobile or whatever, but something different from conventional PDA UI's. It can have the same core OS though, with a significantly different interface and launcher.

[Alan G]

Strider_mt2k wrote:
While I'm a PalmOS user and enthusiast, I can't help but be curious about what's happening on the WM side. After all, Palm is introducing WM. Microsoft isn't introducing PalmOS!

Don't forget to check out the Tech Talk: Windows Mobile & Blackberry edition podcast over at Grassnet (http://www.grassnet.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=9c352de724b11dec7424b224c869f8b5).

Alan G

[craigdts]

Just a question - could palm puts its favorites screen and some PIM apps on top of linux and not infringe Access Palm OS patents?

[madmaxmedia]

Just a question - could palm puts its favorites screen and some PIM apps on top of linux and not infringe Access Palm OS patents?

Wow, that's a great question. Although if Palm wanted to develop their own POS on top of Linux, they could work out the licensing with ACCESS anyways. So it wouldn't be a dealbreaker by any stretch.

I'm somewhat dubious that Palm can develop Garnet devices, WinMobile devices, and develop a new OS on top of that. Although I guess this OS would replace Garnet.

The one thing Palm would not be able to do is license their Linux POS to other companies. If ACCESS is also developing POS on Linux and licensing it out, then the whole scenario makes less sense. It would be very confusing to have 2 versions of the same thing, especially since there are bound to be little but significant differences between the 2.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Their 3rd line is that multimedia/mobile computer type device that Jeff Hawkins has talked about, right?
No. It's not like that. I think the new device is far more than a revised LifeDrive. Hawkins has said the new device will be as revolutionary as the original Pilot and the original Treo. The LifeDrive is many things, but ain't revolutionary. I think the LifeDrive is a tech study, testing out the hardware formfactor and multiple radios. Essentially the LifeDrive is to the new device as the Gemini capsule was to the Space Shuttle.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I am not sure about the "favorites" but the PIM apps are PalmSource's.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I see that on my Treo 650 calendar& contacts is 1.2.2 Palmsource
memos & tasks 1.2.1 palmsource

[madmaxmedia]

No. It's not like that. I think the new device is far more than a revised LifeDrive. Hawkins has said the new device will be as revolutionary as the original Pilot and the original Treo. The LifeDrive is many things, but ain't revolutionary. I think the LifeDrive is a tech study, testing out the hardware formfactor and multiple radios. Essentially the LifeDrive is to the new device as the Gemini capsule was to the Space Shuttle.

Understand. This would not be something like their current lineup. As I mentioned, I think it will involve a new user interface as well.

For everyone else, here's the interview where Hawkins brings it up:

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2005/08/01/focus6.html

There is a third business that I've been working on but I'm not going to tell you what it is. It's in mobile computing. It's something different and it's in its early stage. We have three businesses at PalmOne. One you don't even know about, which is just a child. Another is the teenager and the other one is the mature 45-year-old.

Q: Can you give me a better idea about what this "child" technology is?

A: Not really. I'll give you a couple clues. I always think of mobile computing as personal computing. This long-term vision has led us through everything -- first the organizers and now through the smart phone space. It's like everything a personal computer is. Continue down that path. What are the implications of a world where everyone has a super high-speed Internet connection in their pocket and many gigabytes of storage, super-fast processors, audio, visual and multimedia? What are the consequences of that? How will that change computing when you have all that stuff available to you all the time? I try to think into the future. That's how we come up with new products. So I'm not going to tell you what it is, but it's following the consequences of mobile computing.

At least I am pretty sure this is what Jeff K is referring to. I completely agree that this is the area that could re-vitalize Palm, if they execute well and can really capitalize on this opportunity. But it will definitely be a challenge, as there are other companies approaching this from other viable angles.

But at the very least, Hawkins does get it- the last paragraph particularly crystalizes what lies ahead. And it goes way beyond current talk of Gartner sales reports, which PDA can truely multi-task, where is Cobalt, etc...

[JAmerican]

I should have known, you love your ux-50 too much:)

No, I'm considering the HTC Universal, seeing as its NOT a brick like some people inferred :).

Just waiting for the right price.

BTW, I still find it funny Ed thinks the Treo is a laptop design. He must own a very weird laptop.

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

@JAmerican, you're right about the size of the JJ. Its not as large as the generic pictures indicate. My unit arrived 25 hours after ordering it. Not sure about the WM5 (PPC) UI but need to play with it a bit more. But I must say it looks like an expensive device for what you get.

Edit: the crude UI of the JJ reminds of my LG Phenom (aka LG Express) running WinCE2.11. What have M$ being doing for the last 4/5 years?

[JAmerican]

@JAmerican, you're right about the size of the JJ. Its not as large as the generic pictures indicate. My unit arrived 25 hours after ordering it. Not sure about the WM5 (PPC) UI but need to play with it a bit more. But I must say it looks like an expensive device for what you get.

Edit: the crude UI of the JJ reminds of my LG Phenom (aka LG Express) running WinCE2.11. What have M$ being doing for the last 4/5 years?

Where did you order it from and how much did you pay? Also, what do you mean crude UI? Do you mean its the same. Well Palm's UI is the same. Been the same since the first Palms.

BTW, I hope Palm gets an idea for the next Treos because 320x320 won't last forever.

http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/pda/wizard/index.htm

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

@JAmerican, I am in the UK and the best online supplier (the one that get new devices before others) is www.expansys.com . The JJ cost UKP 320 with a 12 month contract (on a 3G network) with a line rental of UKP15 per month for 3 months and UPK30 for 9 months (but after month 9 you can change the rental to UKP16 per month).

I have used lots of Symbian devices (all three form factors supported by Symbian) and four POS devices (NR70, TH55, LD & Treo 650). I have found that the UI is much easier to use on these devices compared to WM5. But these are my initial impressions - the use of the screen real estate just seems very wasteful. Also, the JJ is just not as fast as you'd expect (lots of comments about this at Howards Forums) - eg switching from portrait to landscape is much much quicker on the LD than on the JJ and some systems changes cause 2 second delay in displaying the "Start" menu.

(sorry if I am a bit off topic here)

[JAmerican]

@JAmerican, I am in the UK and the best online supplier (the one that get new devices before others) is www.expansys.com . The JJ cost UKP 320 with a 12 month contract (on a 3G network) with a line rental of UKP15 per month for 3 months and UPK30 for 9 months (but after month 9 you can change the rental to UKP16 per month).

I have used lots of Symbian devices (all three form factors supported by Symbian) and four POS devices (NR70, TH55, LD & Treo 650). I have found that the UI is much easier to use on these devices compared to WM5. But these are my initial impressions - the use of the screen real estate just seems very wasteful. Also, the JJ is just not as fast as you'd expect (lots of comments about this at Howards Forums) - eg switching from portrait to landscape is much much quicker on the LD than on the JJ and some systems changes cause 2 second delay in displaying the "Start" menu.

(sorry if I am a bit off topic here)

Well then I give up then. Because I will not use a device without a keyboard and I will not use a device with a cramped keyboard. I agree with you about the rotation. The rotation on a Palm is much cleaner than a WM. I've seen it from the time I tested a HP 624MHz device. I've been reading reviews and the device is really not worth the money charged for it. Amazing, every time a company makes a clamshell, they always do something to mess it up. Looks like when my PDA dies, I'm going to be leaving the PDA market. As I've said before, I do not assimilate to any PDA that does not meet my needs for then it becomes a paperweight. I might consider the Sprint device but I don't like it that much. My bro is getting the Wizard so I can't get that. The Wizard might be the best device to get.

EDIT: NOT!!! LOL. Wanted to see if anyone was gonna reply to that. I'm still gonna try and get the JASJAR. No matter. The screen rotation lags is a downside but the OS can actually multitask unlike Palm OS (something I've wanted to do since I left my sidekick) and stream video. Something about WM is that you can hack it more so than you can Palm OS. WM has a registry just like Windows where you can make settings to enhance your system. Remember when the LD came out, it lagged like hell until Sharky fixed it. Same will happen for the JASJAR. So that does not bother me. I also have a feeling your gonna be a little biased toward the JASJAR in your review. What PDA do you own besides the JASJAR.

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

@JA

I have posted more information at: http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=858662&posted=1#post858662

Probably best to continue our discussion at this non-POS PDA forum