1SRC Podcast FortyThree

[Jeff Kirvin]

Say it with me: it's not "Palm OS or Windows Mobile," it's "Palm OS AND Windows Mobile." Also, Palm isn't a hardware company anymore. They're a VAR, a value-added reseller. They contract with companies like HTC to design and build the devices, they license an OS from ACCESS or Microsoft, then they tweak it all into a product with that distinctive "Palm" feel and usability. That's where the money is. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1240)]

[Watcher]

C|NET: "How Palm Lost Its Grip"
By Kent Pribbernow on September 27, 2005 02:57 PM

"When viewed in conjunction with the sale of PalmSource (a Palm spin-off that now manages the Palm OS) earlier this month, it's an acceleration in the demise of the Palm OS platform and final confirmation that its once-dominant position in the broader handheld market is gone for good," said Carmi Levy, a senior research analyst at Info-Tech Research Group.

Exactly what I've been saying for the past few months. PalmOS is on its way out the door. Palm's adoption of Windows Mobile for the Treo (and many more products next year) will serve as final confirmation to both end users and developers that PalmOS is a dying platform, actually speeding to OS on its way to the grave. A perfect self-fulfilling prophecy.

http://www.pocketfactory.com/archives/2005/09/cnet_missteps_f.php

[Jeff Kirvin]

Wrong. Palm is an integrator. They can't afford to be tied to any one supplier. A lot of the misconceptions about this deal stem from thinking that Palm is a hardware company. It's not.

[Robyr]

Jeff, I think the problem is Palm has changed its focus so much these past years that its almost impossible to be serious about their future. They seem to be in the dying stages of a large company. If Palm isnt a software company, and it isnt a hardware company, what the hell is it. Resellers dont work in this day and age (dont point to Dell and HP and other major PC manufacturers, they atleast manufacture a bit of their product). If Palm is just going to be a HTC reseller, what the hell is the point in being Palm? I don't mean to be harsh, but most people see it like I do, as the beginning of the end.

[Jeff Kirvin]

They have other ODMs. Palm makes the Palm experience, more than the sum of its parts.

[Robyr]

Well yeah, but in the past the Palm experience was all about hardware design, coupled with a down to earth, PIM centric OS. Now they control NEITHER! Its just not a good position to be in, especially since HTC and others arent solely supplying Palm, they also supply its competition, which in all honesty, have more experience and clout.

[loki2486]

Jeff:

I think that the future of handhelds is going to be Windows OS. The Palm OS is suitable for a classical PDA, but handhelds have evolved beyond that. The classical PDA, the "Personal Digital Assistant" is a dying class.

The devices now can hardly be a classical "PDA", they have evolved into "mobile computing" devices (Gates used that term). Back in the days, the orginal Palm Pilots and Palm OS were intended to be electronic dayrunners. You noticed that the handhelds today are much more than a dayrunner, they are trying to mimic the functionality of a desktop computer.

Gone are the days of using your handheld mostly to check your schedule, look up a phone number. Now we using our handhelds to listen to mp3's, watch video clips, stream music, access the internet, check and sent emails, read/edit documents presention... pretty much doing everything your desktop or laptop could doing in a units that fits in your pocket.

IMO, for mobile computing purposes, the Palm OS may have reached a LIMIT, perhaps Palm saw that in the Palm OS Cobalt (perhaps SONY saw it last year). The Palm OS created for a "PDA" may not be as robust as the Windows OS in handling the demands of today's mobile computers. Also, for mobile handheldcomputers people may prefer a OS so that the transference of info. from handheld to desktop flows smooth without requirement any conduits like the Palm OS. You would want the OS of you handheld to be the same as the OS on your desktop.

IMO, the Palm/Access OS may be an excellent OS for mobile smartphones, but it's limits will make it undesirable for future evolutions of mobile computers. Palm will problably still make Palm/Access OS units in the next few years, but will make more and more Window OS units and gradually leaving the Palm/Access OS to smartphones.

I personally think that in a few years, windows mobile will just be a full power windows desktop OS with mobile capabilities. The offsprings to the OQO and Sony VAIO U71...

just my $0.02

[Cyker]

Aww man...

I was hoping Palm would pick themselves up, but it looks like they've just caving.
The future does not look good for users like me (i.e. the Clie and Zodiac crowd).

So Palm aren't going to build their own hardware or software anymore? Now their entire modus operandi is to make this 'Zen-of-palm' experience from third-party parts?

Not an optimistic view.

Palms have become increasingly more complex, less stable and less reliable and they show no signs of improving - Rather than try to fix that they pull a Microsoft and go for Marketting Features (4GB HD in a PDA? The Nano has 4GB!).

Their hayday was when they made both the software and the hardware - That level of integration was so tight and functional! People still fall back on their Palm III's and Palm V's when their Tungstens fail them!

Ahh, welp, lets see how they do anyway. As always, if they make something I want, I'll buy it. If not, I won't. Simple as that.

[Robyr]

I see a Zaurus in my future, as M$ WinMobile devices are notorious for not syncing with Linux, its just a matter of time..

[PDAJah]

Aww man...


Palms have become increasingly more complex, less stable and less reliable and they show no signs of improving - Rather than try to fix that they pull a Microsoft and go for Marketting Features (4GB HD in a PDA? The Nano has 4GB!).

..

Well I bought my LD in June, here in the UK, and 4 months later there are still no WM or Symbian devices like the LD at its price point (HDD or 4GB flash). It is unique and I find it really useful. The Treo has been in the top 10 sales charts at www.expansys.co.uk for as long as I can remember - because it is a well designed and attractive package. Again I can't remember a WM or Symbian Smartphone have such consistent sales (these are SIM free devices). Palm is good at what it does.

[JAmerican]

OMG. Jeff what a thinker you are. Amazing podcast. It makes so much sense that Palm felt great about ACCESS taking PalmSource in that it released them from PalmSource in a way. I had a feeling that PalmSource was the reason Palm had not gone to different OSes. Since ACCESS is not apart of Palm and ACCESS probably won't give any leeway where licensing is concerned, I think it was a bold and smart move to go to different OSes so that you have options. Makes a lot of sense. Palm's input into the development of Windows Mobile is amazing in that it might just be that we can all switch between OSes and still feel like were still using a Palm just with Video Streaming, Multitasking etc :) 2 Thumbs Kirvin

JAmerican

[Un_Impressed]

Should Jeff be admired for basically being forced to change his views by external events? What happened to Garnet being good enough until tabletPC's replace them? And what happened to Palm being able to survive without Windows? Whats Jeff going to say in a year's time when no more POS Treo's are sold?
http://1src.com/?m=show&id=1161

Is Jeff loyal to POS or just Palm the company?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Should Jeff be admired for basically being forced to change his views by external events? What happened to Garnet being good enough until tabletPC's replace them? And what happened to Palm being able to survive without Windows? Whats Jeff going to say in a year's time when no more POS Treo's are sold?
http://1src.com/?m=show&id=1161
Hiya, Surur. Couldn't stay away, could you? How'd you mask your IP this time?

I'm open-minded. I make the best decisions I can based on the information I have at the time, and I change my views when I learn new things. It's what intelligent people do.

Is Jeff loyal to POS or just Palm the company?
Neither. I'm loyal to me. I use the best solution I can find for what I need to do. Currently, that's a Palm Treo 650. That could change tomorrow.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Well yeah, but in the past the Palm experience was all about hardware design, coupled with a down to earth, PIM centric OS. Now they control NEITHER! Its just not a good position to be in, especially since HTC and others arent solely supplying Palm, they also supply its competition, which in all honesty, have more experience and clout.
It's all in how you choose to see it, I guess. I see Palm with the advantage here because mobile integration is what they do. HP and Dell are hardware companies and don't really seem to get what makes a great mobile device.

[Alan G]

Jeff,

I enjoyed listening to your discussion of "And" and "Or". Very true. I also appreciated the discusson of Palm as a VAR. That really make the whole Palm WM Treo thing "click" for me. As you pointed out, Palm is no longer the hardware company we all knew from years ago. At this point, they really are a lot like Garmin now (more special sauce). As time goes on, I can really see why Palm would want to more forward with a Windows Mobile Treo family of products. Maybe I can stop freakin' out now.

Alan G

[strider_mt2k]

Jeff, I enjoyed the podcast as always. 100% improvement in the sound quality!

I do disagree with you on where things are going however.
I think Palm OS is done, and will become like DOS in the "it's still around, but no one uses it anymore" catagory.
While I still love my TH55, almost overnight it has almost become yet another piece of high tech Sony abandonware. (sigh)
Long may it run.

WM seems to be the future.

If Palm doesn't make an OS, and if Palm doesn't make hardware, then I really have no reason to pursue anything they do anymore.
That time would be better spent learning and exploring WM, and if that's the case you better believe I'm going where the better hardware is!
I have no reason to have any loyalty whatsoever to a name that's become like RCA in that it's just sold for it's recongnition value and is no longer connected to what made it great to begin with.

I mourn.

[Jeff Kirvin]

There is no one "future." Never has been, never will be. Whether it be Garnet or Plinux or something else we haven't seen, it's essential to Palm's survival as a VAR to provide more than one platform for their devices. If they become Windows-only, then Microsoft owns them. I don't think Colligan is that dumb.

However, from a user standpoint the OS itself may no longer matter as much. If Palm can deliver the same ease of use on Palm OS or Windows Mobile, then ease of use is removed from the equation. Then I'd think the next question to ask when picking a handheld is what software do I really need and what platform does that require? This question is the same one that keeps me running Windows XP instead of Linux or Tiger. I can make my XP box look and act almost exactly like Aqua if I really want the Apple UI, but I can run software on my XP box that I can't on a Mac.

[Gekko]

I think PalmOS AS WE KNOW IT is dead. I believe though that parts of the "Zen" of Palm will live on in WM5, WM6, and WM7. There's just too much momentum and/or inertia for WM and against PalmOS.

Palm choosing to offer WM Treos was a big vote of no confidence for PalmOS by Colligan and customers.

BUT - I don't see this as a bad thing. PalmOS was stagnant and (FrankenGarnet) was hacked and cobbled up as far as could be feasibly done. Cobalt 6.0 and 6.1 was DOA and Plinux is a pipe dream. I do not expect Access to produce a significant, marketable, acceptable OS alternative to WM in enough time. Who will Access use? The old PSRC people? Their own people? If either had the talent or resources, we would have seen one in devices by now.

BUT - I am excited because I think this now means the best of both worlds for customers - the power/resources/standards/compatibility of MSFT combined with the "Zen" of Palm. I think Palm can ride this wave for the next few years. I think Palm will offer a WM Treo AND a POS Treo in 2006, but that will be the last POS Treo that we will ever see. Hopefully by then, WM5 or WM6 will be "Palmified" to where we truly have the best of both worlds and the best of PalmOS will live on in WM. Gates himself said that Palm has/will have influence in WM5 and beyond. This is a good thing for us! It's not a great thing LONG-TERM for Palm.

In the LONG-TERM, much of Palm's "Zen" will be rolled into the BASE WM OS (kind of like how early Windows OS stole lots of MAC OS features) and the Palm Treo will lose its uniqueness. Gates & Co. will take all that Zen and put it into WM6 WM7 etc. He's got these guys under his spell - Colligan obviously has been CHARMED by the man.

I personally would not want to invest in a business (long-term) where all the company does is provide a thin (and thinning) layer of value over someone else's hardware or software. And please do not compare Palm to Dell - contrary to popular belief, Dell's provides a lot of value-added - they spend the same if not more on R&D than does Apple and their logistics bring products to the market better and cheaper and more profitable than anyone else on the planet. Palm will teach Gates & Co. all their tricks and he dump them off on the corner. Why will Gates do this? Not because he wants to "kill" Palm. Gates will do this because WM comes FIRST. The good of the platform comes FIRST. So he will do whatever it takes to make the platform better, let lots of licenesees fight it out, and sell lots of WM licensees. If Palm succeeds at this, great. But his first priority is improving and growing the WM platform at any cost.

I leave you with this question - What will Palm cring to the table 3 years from now when the "Zen" of Palm is totall absorbed into WM6 or WM7?????????????????????????

“He who rides the tiger for power sometimes ends up inside.” – Dick Morris

[Jeff Kirvin]

I could bring up an political analogy about how some people see everything as either/or, black/white, us/them, and other people have a more cooperative worldview, where things can be us+them, black+white, etc. But it would likely fall on deaf ears, so I won't.

Suffice to say that if Palm want's to remain healthy as a VAR, they have to remain independent of any one supplier. Period.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Great podcast, the sound quality was also excellent. I disagree with Palm OS as we know it is dead. It wasn't a vote of no confidence, it was a vote of "lets give them what they want, and make tons of money". Palm is doing this just to keep itself alive, and like Jeff said Microsoft asking Palm to step in seems to me who needs who more. Not that MS didn't have more marketshare, etc. but from a usability standpoint, and if you watched the webcast you'd see that this is why Palm was brought into it.

Ed and Palm did this to extend the Treo market, and be a huge corporate success. They did this because of the corporate market, it =$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. You can tell by Ed's answers on the webcast that Palm is still devoted to Palm OS, I am not just saying this because I am naive, watch it. Palm is very, very, very, much alive!! If they can do what they did with Windows Mobile, ie. tweak it to be more Palm like, I leave you with this question, what can they do to garnet, cobalt, or Plinux to keep Palm going?

Palm knows how to make an OS "right" once they get their hands on it, we saw this with garnet, and now Windows Mobile. I believe we will see it again. I believe as Jeff said we will see a Treo700p, to succeed the 650, the world famous 650. There are too many Treo users, and Ed made that clear with the statement he made about last quarters sales of the 650, I think he said half a million, correct me if I am wrong. He made sure to say that because he could tell people in the audience, and watching the webcast were going to wonder what about Treo's running Palm OS, what now? Palm OS is not dead!!! Don't believe the hype:)

[Gekko]

>I could bring up an political analogy about how some people see everything as either/or, black/white, us/them, and other people have a more cooperative worldview.

And Liberals are all about moral relativism. Their core convictions chage daily with the wind. There is no right or wrong - only grey areas.

>Suffice to say that if Palm want's to remain healthy as a VAR, they have to remain independent of any one supplier. Period.

What you fail to realize is that, at this point, Palm will not make this decision. The FREE MARKET will determine who effectively is Palm's OS supplier. Palm has now made this an open game - WM vs. Garnet/Plinux. If the trend continues and the majority buys WM, Palm will STILL be at the mercy of MSFT/WM. And I DO see that happening in 3 years. Palm's independence will be determined by THE MARKET. If 90% of the MARKET buys WM Treos, do you really think it matters that Palm still offers Garnet/Plinux Treos????? Do you REALLY think they'll be independent????????? Do you REALLY think they'll be in a position to tell MSFT to go F themselves??????????

[Jimmie Geddes]

Yes I do. There will still be users that want Palm OS, and Palm more than anyone knows how to make it just right. It's not about a choice between the 2, stop making it that. It's choices. Palm is in a good position to fully support both OS'es, and they will. There is still a market for Palm OS.

[JA@school]

Guys, guys, guys, you all are thinking to intelligently, in the sense that you know the difference between Palm and WM. A lot of people who want a complex device don't know the difference. I have an example as well. I have a friend who owns a Treo 600 (I think), and when I asked her about it, she said that she didn't know what it was just that it can store addresses and make calls. That's it. Now this is just one example but think about all those people who just want a complex phone. Some of those people don't even look at the OS, they just see the device, think its cool and get it. I was one of those people when I was like 14, I got a Sidekick because it looked cool. I was thinking to either get a Sidekick or a T-Mobile Pocket PC Phone (one that was made by HTC btw) and I decided to get the Sidekick even though the screen was B&W. All I saw as the end-user was the rotating screen. Now, I did regret getting the Sidekick because it has no real OS but it made me realize that the OS does matter. For a lot of people at hiptop.com (the Sidekick's offical forum site), I battled with them about the fact that the Sidekick has no popular OS, in the sense that you cannot do much with it except use the built-in apps and they didn't care.

To conclude my story. I hope you read it all. You have to think about whose buying it and if most of those people are not educated, then Palm OS and WM devices will sell. If people like us prefer Palm OS, then Palm OS devices will sell. If people at PocketPCThoughts and WM247 like WM devices, then they will buy Palm's WM devices. Don't you see. Palm wins in both situations. Now if Palm stopped developing Palm OS devices, then that would be stupid, but they are not.

Kirvin makes some really great points. They might contradict some points he's made in the past because he's human and has to right to do so. No one is perfect and no one is 100% correct. Just because Jeff records his opinions doesn't make them the law of the land for 1src or the Palm community.

Please think about what I've said. I really hope you guys read it all.

To recap...

Palm Before Treo 700w: Palm OS devices only
Palm After Treo 700w: Palm OS devices and WM devices.

They gain an OS, they loose virtually nothing.

JAmerican

[JAmerican]

Guys, guys, guys, you all are thinking to intelligently, in the sense that you know the difference between Palm and WM. A lot of people who want a complex device don't know the difference. I have an example as well. I have a friend who owns a Treo 600 (I think), and when I asked her about it, she said that she didn't know what it was just that it can store addresses and make calls. That's it. Now this is just one example but think about all those people who just want a complex phone. Some of those people don't even look at the OS, they just see the device, think its cool and get it. I was one of those people when I was like 14, I got a Sidekick because it looked cool. I was thinking to either get a Sidekick or a T-Mobile Pocket PC Phone (one that was made by HTC btw) and I decided to get the Sidekick even though the screen was B&W. All I saw as the end-user was the rotating screen. Now, I did regret getting the Sidekick because it has no real OS but it made me realize that the OS does matter. For a lot of people at hiptop.com (the Sidekick's offical forum site), I battled with them about the fact that the Sidekick has no popular OS, in the sense that you cannot do much with it except use the built-in apps and they didn't care.

To conclude my story. I hope you read it all. You have to think about whose buying it and if most of those people are not educated, then Palm OS and WM devices will sell. If people like us prefer Palm OS, then Palm OS devices will sell. If people at PocketPCThoughts and WM247 like WM devices, then they will buy Palm's WM devices. Don't you see. Palm wins in both situations. Now if Palm stopped developing Palm OS devices, then that would be stupid, but they are not.

Kirvin makes some really great points. They might contradict some points he's made in the past because he's human and has to right to do so. No one is perfect and no one is 100% correct. Just because Jeff records his opinions doesn't make them the law of the land for 1src or the Palm community.

Please think about what I've said. I really hope you guys read it all.

To recap...

Palm Before Treo 700w: Palm OS devices only
Palm After Treo 700w: Palm OS devices and WM devices.

They gain an OS, they loose virtually nothing.

JAmerican

I approve this message. :)

JAmerican

[Jimmie Geddes]

Jamerican I approve your message as well:)

[Jeff Kirvin]

"I could bring up an political analogy about how some people see everything as either/or, black/white, us/them, and other people have a more cooperative worldview."

And Liberals are all about moral relativism. Their core convictions chage daily with the wind. There is no right or wrong - only grey areas.
No, there's right, wrong AND gray areas. Staying "resolute" is kinda stupid in a fast changing world. Adapt or die. Oh, wait, you probably don't accept evolution either.

"Suffice to say that if Palm want's to remain healthy as a VAR, they have to remain independent of any one supplier. Period."

What you fail to realize is that, at this point, Palm will not make this decision. The FREE MARKET will determine who effectively is Palm's OS supplier. Palm has now made this an open game - WM vs. Garnet/Plinux. If the trend continues and the majority buys WM, Palm will STILL be at the mercy of MSFT/WM. And I DO see that happening in 3 years. Palm's independence will be determined by THE MARKET. If 90% of the MARKET buys WM Treos, do you really think it matters that Palm still offers Garnet/Plinux Treos????? Do you REALLY think they'll be independent????????? Do you REALLY think they'll be in a position to tell MSFT to go F themselves??????????
If they play it smart, yes. If they let themselves get cornered into only one viable product, then they deserve their fate. I'm betting they make Garnet, Plinux or something of their own (there's a reason why they're hiring all those Linux people, neh?) into a viable alternative. They'll have to work at it, but they'd be stupid not to keep WM away from being the only option.

[Un_Impressed]

The reason POS will die (despite Palm's intentions or efforts) is pretty simple. If Palm can really bring the ease of use of POS over to WM, without reducing the power or compatability, only a POS fanatic would stay with Palm. All the active POS developers will move their apps to WM in any case, so favourite apps would not remain behind. They will get several advantages immediately, like the use of WIFI SD cards, the ability to use Skype, the ability to multi-task, no white screens of death, bluetooth headset and bluetooth GPS at the same time, wide support with apps from enterprise AND shareware developers.

POS has serious limitations, and its useless to deny it. You would have to be a major zealot to struggle within these limitations while everyone else moves on to a better device from the SAME company. Kind of like the Amish.

Its rather funny that Jimmie declared the "Treo 670" a fake because menu's were popping up and things were happening in the leaked video without anyone touching the screen. Now we know its because one-handed navigation is quite effectively implemented.

As Jeff is only loyal to himself, I'm sure he will be first in line to jump ship (if Palm delivers on its Palm-like experience of course)

[johnsoax]

Jeff, I enjoyed the podcast as always. 100% improvement in the sound quality!


I second that.

[Jeff Kirvin]

The reason POS will die (despite Palm's intentions or efforts) is pretty simple. If Palm can really bring the ease of use of POS over to WM, without reducing the power or compatability, only a POS fanatic would stay with Palm. All the active POS developers will move their apps to WM in any case, so favourite apps would not remain behind. They will get several advantages immediately, like the use of WIFI SD cards, the ability to use Skype, the ability to multi-task, no white screens of death, bluetooth headset and bluetooth GPS at the same time, wide support with apps from enterprise AND shareware developers.
The logical error Surur makes here is to assume that Palm OS will not continue to improve and the technology sharing won't go both ways. There are strong indications that WM5's Persistent Memory is actually NVFS 2.0, that Palm was involved in the design of that feature. Why wouldn't Palm's version of Garnet or Plinux similarly borrow concepts from Windows Mobile?

POS has serious limitations, and its useless to deny it. You would have to be a major zealot to struggle within these limitations while everyone else moves on to a better device from the SAME company. Kind of like the Amish.
Again, assuming the limitations remain limitations. I don't think this is the case, but I'm not obsessed with negativity, either.

As Jeff is only loyal to himself, I'm sure he will be first in line to jump ship (if Palm delivers on its Palm-like experience of course)
Have I ever said otherwise? I was a happy Windows Mobile user for three years, and may one day be again. Right now my Treo 650 is just about perfect for me. Show me a 320x320 or 480x480 WM Treo and might reassess. Again, constantly reevaluating their options and acting accordingly is what intelligent people do. This ain't a religion.

[Un_Impressed]

Jeff, dont start a new myth. Persistent memory was in MS Smartphone OS from 2002. The NVFS disaster is a PalmSource baby.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,102569,00.asp

Yes, the assumption I make is that Garnet will not get multi-tasking or protected memory, and that developer support will decrease. The 'development' of picsel browser for <b>WM</b> Treo is especially hilarious.

[Jimmie Geddes]

NVFS a disaster surur??? Why is Windows Mobile 5 going with it now? We finally gave you a Treo to call your own and you're still crying?? In case anyone thought Palm OS was dead, I just got this in an email.
"This announcement does not mean the end of Palm OS; Director of Business Marketing for Palm Alan Bush did go on record to say that "Yes, we will have future Treo products on Palm OS".
So there..

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff, dont start a new myth. Persistent memory was in MS Smartphone OS from 2002. The NVFS disaster is a PalmSource baby.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,102569,00.asp
Good catch, Surur. Okay, then the question becomes did Palm get the mechanics of NVFS for Palm OS from Microsoft? If so, what else might they get?

Yes, the assumption I make is that Garnet will not get multi-tasking or protected memory, and that developer support will decrease. The 'development' of picsel browser for <b>WM</b> Treo is especially hilarious.
In what way?

And just because I think Palm is sticking with Palm OS doesn't mean I think they're limited to Garnet and derivations thereof. That's your frame, not mine. There's more to Palm OS than Garnet.

[sandshark]

It almost feels like you're having a "Palm can do no wrong" faith about it. I really like the company, but I do have questions on how much they can customize. I think Microsoft put too much of a Windows metaphor into Windows Mobile, so you get things like a user interface that wastes valuable screen real estate and forces you to manage processes. Hard to imagine Palm being able to fix those issues. Windows Mobile does have a great development platform behind it. Being able to use modern tools and modern languages, beats the heck out of some of the jumps you have to do for the palm platform.

That's not to say that Palm's 5.x fork doesn't have its own problems. The OS seems to crash a lot with any heavy duty communications or multimedia app's. It's missing some of the protections from modern operating systems. The basic UI just works, simply said. I personally think the way POS run's applications in place in memory is brilliant; allowing for instantaneous launches. I wish Palm / Access could get things together and give us a robust POS on Palm hardware.

My take on this unholy (ha ha) marriage is that both companies face a common enemy, namely RIM. RIM already has mindshare in corporate server rooms, and could easily transition to the consumer space where Palm dominates. The 7100 series being a wake up call. It'll be very interesting to see how things shape up.

Meanwhile ... I'm loving my Treo 650 as a phone, as a pim, and as an ebook reader.

[Vampire Lestat]

Excellent poscast Jeff. This was your best one ever; humourous and rigorous at the same time.

Human or not, you have nonetheless made a 180 degree change in your position. Not so long ago, you stated that a WM Treo was good in the short term and bad in the long term for Palm Inc.

The problem with Palm Inc. doing WM is that they own the Palm brand name. It would be more logical for Access Inc. to own the Palm brand and have Palm Inc. adopt a new name so that they can sell their hardware with any OS without negatively affecting the Palm OS brand.

I don't like the idea that now Palm Inc. "zen", the Palm user friendly expertise will be now shared with WM devices. I only hope that Palm Inc. "steals" some of the best WM ideas and puts them into Palm OS devices.

Anyways, perhaps one of the most reassuring things to me that Palm OS is not going to die is that the masse of consumers, unlike us on forums, are totally obvlious to all the Palm politics and they will simply buy a PDA based on what OS they find simpler, which screen is prettier and what device costs the least.

I was at a FutureShop store today and most of the people were playing with the LifeDrive and the installed Core Player. The crowd was fascinated and loved the LD but I overheard many of them saying that the biggest turn off was the 699$ CAD price tag. But if the price were right, I am sure the LD would have been the big seller there today.

Of course I was there acting innocent and promoting the pros of Palm OS over WM. :-) It all seemed to boil down to a) is the screen pretty? b) is the price low? c) does it play mp3s? d) "oh look at that it plays full screen movies too!" e) does it have WiFi?

And the 4 Gig HD thing was the driving selling point for the salesman. They really focus on the HD.

Anyways, I am happy in a way that Access Inc. bought Palm OS and not Palm Inc. That is IF Palm OS is available as a priority in English and is made to work great on handhelds (and not become "optimized for smartphones but can also work for handhelds").

Because of the P-A-L-M brand problem, I still think that there is a serious risk that many Palm OS consumers will now buy Dells and HPs, thus undermining Palm's core business. BUT, I can't be sure of that. I personally know that Palm OS (not Palm Inc!) offers the most reliable and most user friendly experience, and in theory people who buy PPCs, if they are not broke after, should then again buy Palm OS devices if they want their lives better organized and entertained. Also, current WM users, because of Palm pointing its nose in WM forums and stuff, might again become interested in Palm OS. No one knows. I just hope that what I feel is the superior OS, Palm OS, stands on its own and Access Co. makes it the best ever OS with the big Linux world rapprochement plans.

Again, very good podcast Jeff. I hope you stick with Palm OS and start developing again. I personnally will be buying the TX, however, if another Palm OS hardware offers an equal quality product, I will favour that product first. I want to blame Colligan but I realize he is probably just a tool. He took that job at Palm Inc AFTER the split up. I think perhaps our rage should have been expressed the day Palm Inc. split into PSource and P1; but we didn't truely grasp what it meant back then. Now we clearly see that they did it to be able to sell WM, and Colligan, despite being one of the inventors of the original Palms, took a job at a company that had clear plans to be an OS agnostic VAR.

At the end of the day, we the consumers decide everything with our millions of $ of buying power. It is really that simple. My cash will continue to support Palm OS because... it "simply works" for me.

[sandshark]

I could bring up an political analogy about how some people see everything as either/or, black/white, us/them, and other people have a more cooperative worldview, where things can be us+them, black+white, etc. But it would likely fall on deaf ears, so I won't.

Suffice to say that if Palm want's to remain healthy as a VAR, they have to remain independent of any one supplier. Period.

Jeff,

Ok, I'll jump on your flame bait!!! BTW -- I really enjoy your podcasts, and share the same love for e-books that you do. That said, you're a liberal weeny and nobody including myself will change that. It doesn't make you a bad person, but jeez it can be annoying. Oh, and W is very much the liberal these days anyway especially with the pocket book, but doesn't get the credit since he works for the wrong party. As far as the us vs them, that was silly tough talk aimed at the two world states that had it coming. The only person you'll find with the more cooperative worldview will be yourself. Otherwise, everyone else is out for themselves.

Regards

[Jimmie Geddes]

Something keeps telling me a cobalt treo is coming soon. They have had cobalt ever since palmsource gave it to them. They had to have been doing something with it. When the first video of the windows mobile treo came out from roc a fella, he also said that there was a cobalt one. I have a feeling that cobalt isn't dead anymore, if Palm wants or maybe has been briging it back to life and tweaking it. It's a finished os, and the fact that there was supposedly a cobalt treo alongside the windows mobile one.

[JAmerican]

Something keeps telling me a cobalt treo is coming soon. They have had cobalt ever since palmsource gave it to them. They had to have been doing something with it. When the first video of the windows mobile treo came out from roc a fella, he also said that there was a cobalt one. I have a feeling that cobalt isn't dead anymore, if Palm wants or maybe has been briging it back to life and tweaking it. It's a finished os, and the fact that there was supposedly a cobalt treo alongside the windows mobile one.

Treo 700p might be Cobalt. This is interesting due to WM 5 (the newest version is on the 700w and the newest version of Palm (v6 aka Cobalt) might be reserved for the Treo or smartphones. They could keep Garnet for PDAs and Cobalt for Smartphones just like WM has PPC and PPC Phone Edition for handhelds and Smartphone Edition for Smartphones. I actually think WM should just dump Smartphone OS keep the PPC and PPC Phone OSes.

JAmerican

[Jimmie Geddes]

I just posted something over at treocentral, guess who I saw trolling the boards over there???

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'm not sure what Surur's up to. He's got a WM Treo now, but that doesn't seem to be enough for him. He wants Palm OS dead. Childish and short-sighted.

[Jimmie Geddes]

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?p=814389&posted=1#post814389
This is what he's up to. He should just stick to Windows Mobile forums,lol.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Look at this that he posted on engadget comments:
16. Posted Sep 29, 2005, 2:50 PM ET by Surur


POS deserves to die. Its 2005 for heavens sake. Why do we still have a single threaded, non-multi-tasking OS in charge of 400 Mhz processors and 4GB Memory? Its pure madness.

Verdict: Death due to lack of innovation.

BTW: Jimmie Geddes, stop pushing your crappy website.

He is such a troll, lol.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Deserves to die???? lol. This anonymous troll needs help.

[PDAJah]

POS has serious limitations, and its useless to deny it. You would have to be a major zealot to struggle within these limitations while everyone else moves on to a better device from the SAME company. Kind of like the Amish.


Er...I can do everything I need, PIM, Word processing, listen to DRM music, audio books, my daughter can watch videos, etc So what are these limitations you talk about? Have you ever used a Treo 650 or LD? Why does Palm make a profit from POS based systems while M$ run their WM business at a loss?

[Un_Impressed]

Er...I can do everything I need, PIM, Word processing, listen to DRM music, audio books, my daughter can watch videos, etc So what are these limitations you talk about? Have you ever used a Treo 650 or LD? Why does Palm make a profit from POS based systems while M$ run their WM business at a loss?

Next you will be saying Garnet is good enough till 2009 and Palm can survice without Windows Mobile. Pity Colligan disagrees with you.

Maybe you should apply for his job?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Okay, Surur. Straight up, what do you want from me? Would you prefer I not admit when I'm wrong? Or maybe I should just "stay the course" and never change my mind in the face of contradictory evidence? Don't you Brits find that sort of behavior from Yanks reprehensible?

I get it wrong from time to time but I adapt. I make corrections. And funny, I don't see you writing a weekly column or heck, using your real name.

Care to put you money where your snarky mouth is, Surur? Or are you just all talk?

[Jimmie Geddes]

http://engadget.com/entry/1234000840061012/#c484407
Jeff look what he wrote about me and you at engadget, the dude is so sick!!!!!

[Jimmie Geddes]

We go by our real names, he is anonymous, a nobody. We have websites we write for, he is anonymous a nobody. Do I need to say it again, sorry for the rant. He's a nobody.

[sandshark]

Look at this that he posted on engadget comments:
16. Posted Sep 29, 2005, 2:50 PM ET by Surur


POS deserves to die. Its 2005 for heavens sake. Why do we still have a single threaded, non-multi-tasking OS in charge of 400 Mhz processors and 4GB Memory? Its pure madness.

Verdict: Death due to lack of innovation.

BTW: Jimmie Geddes, stop pushing your crappy website.

He is such a troll, lol.

Yep, definitely a microsloft troll.

Sometimes a simple and sweet OS is exactly what the doctor ordered. I'm not going to pretend that POS can do all the things Windows CE can, but it doesn't have to. Nobody complains that most cell phones operating systems don't support pre-emptive multitasking. I suppose he would put Windows Mobile in a toaster so that it could fight viruses while burning toast. ...And while the memory model may not scale as a solution for a desktop operating system, the ability to instantaneously execute/launch an application in place is a good user experience. When I select an app, I want - boom - for it to be open. Let's see the advanced (i.e., overkill) operating system do that.

How about a system that gives you what you are willing to pay for? No more and no less. Yea, that would be Palm.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I can't believe I came acoss anonynmous on 1src, treocentral, and engadget today. You can tell by his statements on here and all those sites that he is a nobody and is jealous. Calling me a 15 year old, my site is crappy,lol, this all coming from a nobody who goes by surur, or anonymous when he is banned due to his insults. Engadget people are getting to see him at his worst.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Jeff I am sorry you were brought into this on engadget, I never mentioned you there. He obviously visited my site, how nice,lol. Like you said he can't even go by his real name, he is sad.

[Un_Impressed]

How about informing your followers about the real state of play (and not your wish fulfilment fantasy). Like WM has a better achitecture than POS, that it has better backing and technology, and that POS is not good enough for 2005.

How about telling them what the real situation is regarding sales figures. How about not making up strange stories such as POS ruling in Asia.

How about telling them that a Treo 700p will not really change the play of things, and the inevitable death of POS.

Of course that will make for a short and boring podcast, and will lose your whole audience. But then reality is not always comforting.

[PDAJah]

Next you will be saying Garnet is good enough till 2009 and Palm can survice without Windows Mobile. Pity Colligan disagrees with you.

Maybe you should apply for his job?

I have no idea what I will want in 2009 but I am happy with what I have in terms of my POS devices (and lots of Symbian ones as well). I only keep devices for about 9-12 months. I am stating a fact that I am happy and feel I have obtained value for money from my expenditure. What more could you ask from any electronic device? I think Palm WM devices will give Palm cash to develop other devices as Palm has done for many years. What Palm are doing is called portfolio management.

[Jeff Kirvin]

How about informing your followers about the real state of play (and not your wish fulfilment fantasy). Like WM has a better achitecture than POS, that it has better backing and technology, and that POS is not good enough for 2005.

How about telling them what the real situation is regarding sales figures. How about not making up strange stories such as POS ruling in Asia.

How about telling them that a Treo 700p will not really change the play of things, and the inevitable death of POS.

Of course that will make for a short and boring podcast, and will lose your whole audience. But then reality is not always comforting.
Those are all your opinions, no matter how much you want them to be fact. I do not agree.

Grow up, get a life and get the **** out of here.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Jah I think he gave you a compliment telling you to apply for Colligan's job,lol. Wow, he listens to Jeff's podcast, visits my site and others, tells you to apply for Colligan's job, maybe he's turning over a new leaf, or going back into his cave.

[Jimmie Geddes]

We can only hope..

[Jimmie Geddes]

Maybe be is turning over a new leaf here's his response to me on engadget:
24. Posted Sep 29, 2005, 5:25 PM ET by Surur
I suck big time, like the little weasel that I am ... and I also have incredibly small genitals.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Yes they do, and they approved. Surur I am glad at least you are admitting that you are "unimportant", finally.

[sandshark]

How about informing your followers about the real state of play (and not your wish fulfilment fantasy). Like WM has a better achitecture than POS, that it has better backing and technology, and that POS is not good enough for 2005.

How about telling them what the real situation is regarding sales figures. How about not making up strange stories such as POS ruling in Asia.

How about telling them that a Treo 700p will not really change the play of things, and the inevitable death of POS.

Of course that will make for a short and boring podcast, and will lose your whole audience. But then reality is not always comforting.

What a waste of oxygen. Better architecture? For a small laptop sure, for a organizer and phone, not at all. Better backing? No, Palm has dominated the consumer market in pda's, and WM has a strong hold in corporatations. As far as phones, RIM leads (and what's your clue are their technology). Technology? Everyone is pretty much using the same off the shelf components from Taiwan.

A 700p would be important for anyone using Palm Desktop today, which is a large number of people. New corporate customers will flock to what ever work with their buddies in the office. New consumers will price shop and then flock to what ever they think will work with their buddies in the office.

In the pda arena, I saw a lot of people at my work dump Palm's in favor of Pocket PC's. You know why, well, it wasn't the advanced capabilities of the wince. They saw some neat games, a higher res color screen at the time, and that was enough for them. A lot of them just assumed PIM's would be just the same and that the syncing could be taken for granted. Now, most of them don't use a pda anymore since they forgot why they bought the pda in the first place and the games got old. My best take is that you use your iPaq to organize your Ms. Pac-man, and to browse to your desktop computer twenty feet away.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Great podcast again Jeff.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Just an update to regular site visitors: We're aware of the current infestation and we're working to remove it permanently. Please stand by.

[smoothjordan]

Hey Jeff! Haven't been to the site in a little while and Surur is going bonkers!!! I hope he throws some arrow's at me, that little cry baby....
Any who, top notch on the podcast, waiting on next weeks where you will talk about the new devices. BTW, I agree, Treo 650 is perfect for me. I just hate the fact I had to buy an application to do some voice recording.... Oh well, I won't get a 700 until July of next year, that way all the bugs should be out of it and I can say go to my 650 after 1 year :) Anyone know of any good recording apps for the treo? I'm trying to record lectures so I can study.
Jordan
PS Jimmie, check out engadget, i tried to stick up for ya :)

[twrock]

Their hayday was when they made both the software and the hardware - That level of integration was so tight and functional! People still fall back on their Palm III's and Palm V's when their Tungstens fail them!

Yep. When my T2 flakes out, the IIIxe is still going strong.

[isalwen]

Boy, this is beginning to side like a religious debate. Jeff is right. It all comes down to the user's experience, which means there are two communities that are affected here. One is the developer community that helps create that user experience. The other is the user, who decides whether the experience is satisfying enough that he will purchase the product.

Adam Osborne's (creator of the first "portable" computer, the Osborne I) adage that "adequacy is sufficient" seems to be true, like it or not (how many of us use Dvorak keyboards or Betamaxes?).

The key questions are, what would Garnet or Cobalt bring to the user experience that Linux or Windows Mobile won't? What potential capabilities are lost by shifting away from Palm OS? I'd be interested in hearing answers to these questions from some of the very knowledgeable people who post to this forum.

[smoothjordan]

Adam Osborne's (creator of the first "portable" computer, the Osborne I) adage that "adequacy is sufficient" seems to be true, like it or not (how many of us use Dvorak keyboards or Betamaxes?).

The key questions are, what would Garnet or Cobalt bring to the user experience that Linux or Windows Mobile won't? What potential capabilities are lost by shifting away from Palm OS? I'd be interested in hearing answers to these questions from some of the very knowledgeable people who post to this forum.

What they bring is the Palm OS. Many people here have been using the Palm OS since the original Pilot in 1996, so they are knowledgable of the whole OS, fell in love with it's ease of use, ect. Some people are just stuck in there ways, and they can't move to a different platform. I have been to both sides, but right now Palm OS is the choice platform for me :) BTW, great post on your part :)

[JAmerican]

I notice that I have to login now. Thanks for that Surur :rolleyes:

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

We no longer allow guest posting? Rock on!

[ptc]

Jeff - great podcast. Terrific content and sound qulaity.

I don't always agree with you, but I enjoy the debate.

Keep em' coming!

[PDAJah]

Okay I've ordered a T-mobile MDA Pro (aka JasJar) so I can see what all the fuss is about with WM (!). Will let you know my thoughts on how it fits my everyday needs. May take a few weeks before I have something sensible to say.

[JAmerican]

Okay I've ordered a T-mobile MDA Pro (aka JasJar) so I can see what all the fuss is about with WM (!). Will let you know my thoughts on how it fits my everyday needs. May take a few weeks before I have something sensible to say.

OMG!! Thank you PDAJah. I really want to hear what its all about as well.

BTW, Kirvin not sure if you saw this but your quite famous :)

http://www.bluenomad.com/ws/prod_wordsmith_details.html

Look at the quote on the site.

JAmerican

[mattijzz]

http://members.home.nl/claus69/summary.mp3

Nice little summary of the webcast with some editing and music... :D