1SRC Podcast FortyTwo

[Jeff Kirvin]

Reuter's new podcasts, Agendus 10, Skin UI, Documents to Go adding true PDF support. Confirmation of the Windows Mobile Treo, the truth about the ACCESS buyout, and what that means for how the smartphone market might play out worldwide. Also, can Palm make the perfect iPod killer? [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1235)]

[Alan G]

Thanks Jeff for having me on the show. As always, it was great to be on the 1SRC podcast with you. Finally! Native Acrobat support is coming to the Palm OS platform. It will be a major productivity enhancement to be able to read PDF files without having to first convert them first on a desktop computer. I'm really looking forward to the next version of Documents to Go. (I know that Picsel Viewer on the Clie works, but with only 11MB of usable RAM there aren't many PDF documents I can reasonably work with.)

While I'm not a fan of WM as I am of Palm OS, I will have to follow the development of WM at Palm.

Alan G

[JAmerican]

CLIE User here :). Yay Alan. Booo Kirvin.

LOL. I was thinking about the Apache but the 320x240 screen and miniSD slot as well as the antenna annoyed me. I want a device that doesn't look like a phone.

Actually T-Mobile only has 1-yr contracts :)

BTW, what system do other countries use for cell phones?

I'm looking forward to the O2 Xda Exec. Amazing version of the HTC Universal :)

http://www.tekguru.co.uk/reviews/images/xda_exec/Exec_backlight.jpg

http://www.tekguru.co.uk/reviews/images/xda_exec/twist3.gif


JAmerican

[Vampire Lestat]

Some people tend to go to WM because of their "loser mentality". They think that MS is unbeatable and everyone should simply roll over and die and let MS standardize everything. Cell phones dominating everything and killing off handhelds is akin to that "Microsoft has to win all the time" defeatist attitude. I for one am sick of this loser mentality. Competition in the PDA marketplace is needed and Palm OS has a major role to play in ensuring that consumers have a choice, that prices stay low, and that there are strong incentives to innovate.

All these gloom and doom predictions.. PalmLinux will suck, Pinux will take too long to get to market, Palm OS is going all Chinese and smartphones, handhelds are dead, tablets are the only future, WM is the definate future, etc, are part of the problem and little of it is based in fact. From what I see, many major companies saw incredible value in buying PalmSource at a premium; that in itself shows the value of PalmOS. More facts? PDAs are dying huh? Then how come there are 6 handhelds on palm.com and 2 Treos? The sales success of handhelds is strictly tied to the quality of the device. That's why last yr PPC sold tons of PDAs and Palm collapsed their market because of their stupid hardware design mistakes/omissions. Like Jeff said, there is often 1 or 2 critical flaws that turn buyers off. It takes only 1 flawless device to change things around in a hearbeat. How come the Treo has an amazing screen, replaceable batt, etc? Why arent these things in the flagship PDA? That was Palm's CHOICE. They can do it, they are just too lazy or making the wrong choices, that's all.

The handheld market is not dead and Palm OS is definately not dead. In fact, its the total opposite. I predict incredible growth for this market in the coming years.

Palm OS is simple to use, the dev software is entirely free, the screen resolution is optimal (even better than VGA when all things considered). Palm has expertise in making awesome designs (such as the T5), Palms come with extensive document compatibility so users can port their work from their desktop to their PDAs without pain, there is a huge db of over 26000 programs, tons of freeware, there are plans to ally with the Linux dev community, the best music and video players are found on Palm, there is a good Palm commuinity, Palm OS' PIM is by far the most user friendly, the Palm economy is strong, Palm has plenty of sales channels, there are plans to use the chinese market to solidify the Palm user base and gain more developers, etc. Sure there are a few bad things here and there, but overall there are a lot of exciting things going on for Palm. Its an exciting platform, it helps maintain innovation and there are over 10 000 000 active Palm users (and over 30 000 000 devices out there).

Jeff, I would respect your choice to go to WM, but please remember that you are on 1src for a PALM podcast. PALM people listen to you. Like Alan, try to make Palm work, and stop being part of the problem whereby Palm owners always have the sickening feeling that Palm is dead and they have to 2nd guess their Palm purchases.

Both PDAs and Treos have a very bright future, and so does Palm OS imo. And even IF Palm OS goes under for any reason, that doesn't mean we all have to be unhappy, have a loser attitude and all want to flock to MS.

MS is not God. Many huge companies of the past, which appeared unbeatable went under. I don't want MS going under, and I in fact respect their products and accomplishments. But their success does not mean Palm has to die, or Palm owners have to feel like they own crap. MS killed Netscape, but who would have guessed Firefox, and open source initiave, would have whipped IE's ***?

Come on Jeff, stay onboard and be part of the Palm solution, not the Palm problem. You are a great asset to the Palm community/economy. Don't ruin it for yourself and others.

[JAmerican]

Some people tend to go to WM because of their "loser mentality". They think that MS is unbeatable and everyone should simply roll over and die and let MS standardize everything. Cell phones dominating everything and killing off handhelds is akin to that "Microsoft has to win all the time" defeatist attitude. I for one am sick of this loser mentality. Competition in the PDA marketplace is needed and Palm OS has a major role to play in ensuring that consumers have a choice, that prices stay low, and that there are strong incentives to innovate.

All these gloom and doom predictions.. PalmLinux will suck, Pinux will take too long to get to market, Palm OS is going all Chinese and smartphones, handhelds are dead, tablets are the only future, WM is the definate future, etc, are part of the problem and little of it is based in fact. From what I see, many major companies saw incredible value in buying PalmSource at a premium; that in itself shows the value of PalmOS. More facts? PDAs are dying huh? Then how come there are 6 handhelds on palm.com and 2 Treos? The sales success of handhelds is strictly tied to the quality of the device. That's why last yr PPC sold tons of PDAs and Palm collapsed their market because of their stupid hardware design mistakes/omissions. Like Jeff said, there is often 1 or 2 critical flaws that turn buyers off. It takes only 1 flawless device to change things around in a hearbeat. How come the Treo has an amazing screen, replaceable batt, etc? Why arent these things in the flagship PDA? That was Palm's CHOICE. They can do it, they are just too lazy or making the wrong choices, that's all.

The handheld market is not dead and Palm OS is definately not dead. In fact, its the total opposite. I predict incredible growth for this market in the coming years.

Palm OS is simple to use, the dev software is entirely free, the screen resolution is optimal (even better than VGA when all things considered). Palm has expertise in making awesome designs (such as the T5), Palms come with extensive document compatibility so users can port their work from their desktop to their PDAs without pain, there is a huge db of over 26000 programs, tons of freeware, there are plans to ally with the Linux dev community, the best music and video players are found on Palm, there is a good Palm commuinity, Palm OS' PIM is by far the most user friendly, the Palm economy is strong, Palm has plenty of sales channels, there are plans to use the chinese market to solidify the Palm user base and gain more developers, etc. Sure there are a few bad things here and there, but overall there are a lot of exciting things going on for Palm. Its an exciting platform, it helps maintain innovation and there are over 10 000 000 active Palm users (and over 30 000 000 devices out there).

Jeff, I would respect your choice to go to WM, but please remember that you are on 1src for a PALM podcast. PALM people listen to you. Like Alan, try to make Palm work, and stop being part of the problem whereby Palm owners always have the sickening feeling that Palm is dead and they have to 2nd guess their Palm purchases.

Both PDAs and Treos have a very bright future, and so does Palm OS imo. And even IF Palm OS goes under for any reason, that doesn't mean we all have to be unhappy, have a loser attitude and all want to flock to MS.

MS is not God. Many huge companies of the past, which appeared unbeatable went under. I don't want MS going under, and I in fact respect their products and accomplishments. But their success does not mean Palm has to die, or Palm owners have to feel like they own crap. MS killed Netscape, but who would have guessed Firefox, and open source initiave, would have whipped IE's ***?

Come on Jeff, stay onboard and be part of the Palm solution, not the Palm problem. You are a great asset to the Palm community/economy. Don't ruin it for yourself and others.

If you haven't noticed, Jeff is a human being like all of us. We all have our opinions. I might not agree with Jeff on certain points and I might on others. You can do the same. Your asking him to go against his opinions and quite frankly, that should not be. I feel that there are devices out there with flaws that make the device very unfavorable. In the case of the Treo, the 320x320 screen and cramped keyboard was one main reason for not getting it. For the Universal, the lack of EDGE is a big thing for me, in that I will have to use GPRS but yet if Cingular does come out with UTMS, this might change and make the Universal flawless. The flaw of the Universal may consider to be its size but yet, for a device that does all that and still be smaller than a laptop is pretty amazing. May of today's laptops cannot match the Universal except for their hard drives. Otherwise, if you compare a Universal to a device that matches in specs, you will see the Universal is amazingly small.

I for one have not used a WM device and I've relied on opinions like yours to stay with Palm but with what I've seen (lack of clamshells, loss of CLIE and Zodiac lines and little gaming, I find that the Palm line is not right for me. I've said this a million times but I am a novice VB.net programmer and currently making a program called BVE Workpad for Windows (pic below), Palm's lack of VB or MS refusal to license Palm VB has made me even more willing to move over to the "dark side". As Kirvin said though, Microsoft is known for improving their software for Windows 3.1 cannot match Windows XP and the same will probably go for Windows Mobile 2003 vs. Windows Mobile 2005. I have not yet used a Clamshell WM device so I feel that getting one is the only way I can compare a Palm and WM device. Hopefully I can get one.

http://jamerican.net/BVEWorkpad/BVEWorkpadv0.4.PNG

JAmerican

[Alan G]

Vampire Lestat, thank you for believing that Palm OS still has a future. I needed that.

Alan G

[craigdts]

What do you guys think about a WM5 OS in the form factor of the T7 (or X)? With a Palm twist to the WM5 os?

Alan, how much customization can palm do to WM5? I've seen the hp handhelds with different looks from others.

Could palm write an application that emulated its favorites pages from the palm OS?

[Alan G]

Alan, how much customization can palm do to WM5? I've seen the hp handhelds with different looks from others. Could palm write an application that emulated its favorites pages from the palm OS?

Actually, I don't think Microsoft will allow Palm to alter the WM user interface all that much. I really don't think will see the Palm OS UI (or anything similar to it) sitting on top of the "out-of-the-box" Windows user interface.

What do you guys think about a WM5 OS in the form factor of the T7 (or X)?

I really liked the HP iPAQ 1900. It was HP's attempt to copy Palm's V/m500 series design. Would a T5/T7 form factor WM device be any good? I guess it wouldn't be any worse than today's Dell Axims or HP's iPAQs. I own an iPAQ 3835 and really never used it. I just like Palm OS better. If Palm OS goes away, then I'd probably select a WM device based on design/price since the features will for the most part be the same.

Alan G

[Gekko]

It's over, Vampire. It's over!

http://media.putfile.com/over54

[vta]

I just wanted to interject that I do find it a little odd that many of us are calling the death of Palm. Does this not seam a little strange to do so at this very moment. All other news aside, Access buy out, WM Treo etc. If Smartphones are the future, and the Treo is currently the number one smartphone, it does seam funny to be saying it is the end of Palm!
There are some VERY exciting products coming out (HTC Universal) but as cool as it is, I can SAFELY say (I am sure) that Treo's and the Treo form factor Smartphone will outsell this unit 5 to 1 for the foreseeable future. Technology is successful when it meats peoples NEEDS. The Treo is a great phone, and people need a phone over a PDA 5 to 1! Peoples use habits are still also very phone centric, and will be for some time.

Concidering the success of the Palm Treo, I am sad to see the WM version on the way. BUT I am at least hopefull that we will now be able to have a comparison of Palm and WM in the marketplace that people will be able to directly compare. I am thinking it will make Palm look even better.

Adam

[JAmerican]

I just wanted to interject that I do find it a little odd that many of us are calling the death of Palm. Does this not seam a little strange to do so at this very moment. All other news aside, Access buy out, WM Treo etc. If Smartphones are the future, and the Treo is currently the number one smartphone, it does seam funny to be saying it is the end of Palm!
There are some VERY exciting products coming out (HTC Universal) but as cool as it is, I can SAFELY say (I am sure) that Treo's and the Treo form factor Smartphone will outsell this unit 5 to 1 for the foreseeable future. Technology is successful when it meats peoples NEEDS. The Treo is a great phone, and people need a phone over a PDA 5 to 1! Peoples use habits are still also very phone centric, and will be for some time.

Concidering the success of the Palm Treo, I am sad to see the WM version on the way. BUT I am at least hopefull that we will now be able to have a comparison of Palm and WM in the marketplace that people will be able to directly compare. I am thinking it will make Palm look even better.

Adam

In all seriousness, if the HTC Universal were sold at the same time the WM Treo was sold in America, I bet most people would want the Universal over the Treo but most would only be able to afford the Treo. Thats a reality. Who would want a smaller keyboard or screen? The WM device already has flaws before it is released such as the 240x240 screen. Its like the average of the 650 and 600.

Even thoughI see the The HTC Universal as the perfect PDA, it is not for everyone and so isn't the Treo. Thats just a reality of life.

JAmerican

[Bionic Antboy]

A quick question for Jeff...

Are you the one who chooses the naming convention for the 1src podcast? If so, why do you name it "FortyTwo" as opposed to "042" or "0042"? Seems counter-intuitive to me. ;)

[LupeValenz]

Who would want a smaller keyboard or screen?

People who want to use a one handed nav device ^_^/

[Jeff Kirvin]

People who want to use a one handed nav device ^_^/
Amen, Lupe!!!

[Jeff Kirvin]

A quick question for Jeff...

Are you the one who chooses the naming convention for the 1src podcast? If so, why do you name it "FortyTwo" as opposed to "042" or "0042"? Seems counter-intuitive to me. ;)
Nope, that was Reggie's decision. I lobbied for 042 myself because it would make sorting the filenames easier, but I was overruled.

[Jeff Kirvin]

From what I see, many major companies saw incredible value in buying PalmSource at a premium; that in itself shows the value of PalmOS. More facts? PDAs are dying huh? Then how come there are 6 handhelds on palm.com and 2 Treos?
Because Treos aren't sold by Palm. It takes a lot more to get a phone through all the regulation and carrier hoops.

How come the Treo has an amazing screen, replaceable batt, etc? Why arent these things in the flagship PDA?
They are. The Treo 650 is Palm's flagship now.

The handheld market is not dead and Palm OS is definately not dead. In fact, its the total opposite. I predict incredible growth for this market in the coming years.
So do I. In China. Not here.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Cell phones dominating everything and killing off handhelds is akin to that "Microsoft has to win all the time" defeatist attitude.
This is why I don't like this distinction. I really think that PDAs will all have cellular radios in a few years. Most will have QWERTY thumbboards. Does this make them all smartphones? Are they no longer PDAs? I love my Treo as a phone, but honestly it would be about 80% as useful to me if it were just a Bluetooth update to the Tungsten C. It's the giant battery, one-handed enhancements and keyboard that make it special, not just the radio.

[dragonsgames]

Treo 700w
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=854427#post854427

[dragonsgames]

Never thought Palm wouldn't use its own OS. It is like Microsoft using Mac OS X, or vice-versa

[Legodude522]

The STATIC is unbearable!

[Alan G]

JAmerican wrote"
The WM device already has flaws before it is released such as the 240x240 screen.

I'm not sure that I'd call them flaws as I would classify it as really bad planning on Palm's part. I mean, reallly, who do they have testing this stuff out? Anyone of us here would have pointed that out as a problem in about 30 seconds.

Alan G

[Jimmie Geddes]

Great podcast as usual. The Treo 700w looks ok, but the screen is bad. I posted my thoughts on my site. Check it out.
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/09/treo-700w-vs-treo-650.html
Get ready for the successor Treo 700p, the 650 even better.

[dragonsgames]

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=854427#post854427
Already made a post about it ;)

[jwm]

Nope, that was Reggie's decision. I lobbied for 042 myself because it would make sorting the filenames easier, but I was overruled.
I rename them to "...0042" anyways, with an extra leading zero because I have that much faith you'll be doing this for some time.

That said, I can't see you still knocking these out over a duration of some 192.288 years! :rolleyes:

[dragonsgames]

Yeah, someone else will take over by then :D

[Jimmie Geddes]

So will there be a special edition 1src podcast? Or wait till next week? I want to hear your thoughts Jeff. Will grassnet be covering this? I have both your podcast links up at my site, always look forward to hearing you guys.

[rcartwr]

Looking at the Engadget fondle of the Treo 700w (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000867059961/) I must say that I am underwhelmed at best. Being in my mid 40s screens matter big time and the screen on the 700w was noticably worse than the 650. Deal killer. Jeff nailed that fact that the memory set up is 64/64 and should be at least 64/128. Another deal killer. I do have hope that the specs indicate that there will be a Treo 600p. What could be going on here is a head to head between WinMob and Palm O/S. although I can't see Palm being smart enough to risk short term profits for long term benefit after people get a chance to try the t systems on the same hardware.

Another thing that was not brought up in the cast with all the moans and groans about the Access deal was first Who owns the apps? (Datebook, To Do, Graffitti even?) Palm or PalmSource? Second, what is to stop Palm from creating its own O/S call it ...gasp Palm O/S and make it backward compatable. There was probably a reason Palm was/is hiring Linux programmers in wholesale lots. Hmmm, right around the time the bidding war was going on as well.


I think that fat lady is far from getting ready to sing for Palm.

Rick C

[Jimmie Geddes]

Yeah, the screen does look bad for them, but I think WM only supports 240 x 240 square screens. I KNOW Palm will make the Treo 700p (palm) sweeter. The 700w will get the WM fans in the door, Palm never goes all out. Thats why I think the specs will be very similar for the 700p, it's an improvement over the 650 in respect to EV-DO, memory, and camera. I will DEFINITELY get it when it comes out, and I think Sprint will debut it.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Maybe, just maybe, with Cobalt??I'd still do garnet with EV-DO, and more memory.

[dragonsgames]

Imagine what a 640x480 screen would look like on that baby :cool:

[Jimmie Geddes]

The w also leads me to something I wrote about a while ago at PalmAddict, and posted it at my site today.
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/09/choices.html
Palm will start playing up the word "choice", they will give their customers a "choice". Choices are good.
Treo 700p I am waiting...

[Jimmie Geddes]

I just gotta say once more great podcast Jeff and Alan. Jeff you have some great "inside" soucres, you called the WM Treo exactly. Treo 700p, I'm waiting for ya.

[Vampire Lestat]

JAmerican wrote"


I'm not sure that I'd call them flaws as I would classify it as really bad planning on Palm's part. I mean, reallly, who do they have testing this stuff out? Anyone of us here would have pointed that out as a problem in about 30 seconds.

Alan G

I ask myself that question often. Glad to know I am not alone.

[PDAJah]

So is "042" to the answer to the question......

[Jeff Kirvin]

The STATIC is unbearable!
I think I figured out what's causing that and corrected it.

[T-Man]

Sorry to come in so late, just listened to podcast, so a little late. :o I hope Palm sells in USA for the rest of their business, if not I'm mmoving to the UK, and they better sell there too! :)

[dragonsgames]

They had some bad sales... :(

[T-Man]

But handheld sales went up this year. (It better have not been WM sales! :mad:) And they'll keep the Treo here, at least, no matter what. I hope...

[JAmerican]

Sad. Looks like we are going to WM since the # of devices palm produces won't all be Palm.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

Sad. Looks like we are going to WM since the # of devices palm produces won't all be Palm.

JAmerican
Where's the logic there? They won't all be WM, either.

But more to the point, our existing devices still work. A friend of mine still uses his m100 every day. After seeing the annoying flaws in the upcoming crop of WM phones, I might just stick with a Treo 650 for years.

[T-Man]

What Jeff said. If Palm does a smart thing and announces they will have close to none, or no Palm devices people want. I will keep the Palm I am currently with. Anyway, Access just bought PalmSrc for some $$$. They wont let PalmOS end, not anytime soon. So who WILL make devices with Palm OS? Maybe if pLinux sales do well, Palm will still run PalmOS for a little longer.

[Bionic Antboy]

So is "042" to the answer to the question......
What's the question? ;)

[jomo]

Truth be told? I don't see a future in everything having a cellular radio. Why? Because, as one web-site guru put it, the Joe-Sixpacks of the world DON'T NEED IT. Seriously. The Jeff Kirvins of the world, the folks who create websites and podcasts and are addicted to "push" email represent a rather small minority in the world. It's lucrative enough that companies want to market to them, but realistically, EV-DO is useless to the average joe on the street. How many people really sit there on their couch surfing the web with a tiny PDA screen? Not a whole lot. Jeff, the way YOU use your Treo is completely contrary to the way I use my Life Drive. The way I use my cellphone is probably completely different than the way you would use yours. And I'm sure a hundred other joe-six-packs could come in here and tell the same tale of DIFFERENCE. I actually own a Kyocera "smart-phone". Don't use it as anything but a cellphone because the screen (about the same size as the Treo's by the way) is just too darned small to do anything useful on. Besides that, even though it comes with a built-in music-player, I would never use it for playing music because I value the ability to be able to make phone-calls anytime or place I want, and I don't want to limit that by running the battery down playing MP3s. Why a smart phone? Because I can't get a regular Cell with a honking huge battery. :^) No other reason. For data manipulation, I prefer my tablet.

Your other point, that Palm will abandon Palm OS? Why should they? Yeah, sure, Palm oS may get focussed on the smart-phone/China market, but Linux STARTED in Europe and was imported to America. Windows, in all its versions has been exported to the rest of the world. If there is a willingness, it isn't very hard to bring the OS back here to America, and I doubt Access will turn down a potentially lucrative licensee, even if that licensee isn't in their principle market. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot. In point of fact, you yourself pointed out that PalmSource isn't leaving the country and isn't even being dismembered. You also made the very valid point that Palm can't survive as a Windows Mobile purveyor. I submit that they can't survive as a telephone maker either because the things that make the Treo such a nice-to-have are pretty much all bound up in the whole Palm-Zen thing. I think there is plenty of room in the world, USA included, for Palm OS, for tablet-style PDAs, and for all those people who are "convergence-junkies" like yourself.

[Gekko]

jomo - average joes don't buy smartphones OR pdas. the average joe uses a motorola flip phone with basic PIM functions that they got free with their wireless contract.

the non-smartphone pda is a product without a market.

[Gekko]

the trend is clear, pdas are dying -

Palm CEO Ed Colligan said that sales of Treo smartphones _the hybrid device that acts as a cell phone and digital organizer — rose 163 percent while sales for personal digital assistants fell 22 percent.

[strider_mt2k]

So is "042" to the answer to the question......

We aren't allowed to know the question yet though. ;)

[JAmerican]

I'm gonna stick with my UX and T610 till the price lowers on the Universal. I just got a Bluetooth v1.2 compliment USB dongle off of ebay. Works great with my device and will work great with the Universal. I'm currently streaming music with it and viewing the web. Way faster than my T610. I'll use this for now till I get the real deal :).

JAmerican

[Vampire Lestat]

We need Sony or another major company to start making/selling PDAs with Palm OS. Palm Inc. being the sole producer of Palm OS devices is not reassuring to me, especially now that I am seeing the WM Treo. This is a mistake in my opinion.

Access Inc. makes Palm OS, but is yet not named Palm Inc. Palm Inc. now sells both Palm OS and WM devices. Consumers will be more confused than ever. As odd as it may seem, Access Inc. should buy back the Palm brand and let Palm Inc. change their name so they can be just another OS agnostic hardware producer like HP, Dell, Toshiba.

I am not 100% sure of everything I just wrote above. But I do know that something is still not right with the Palm branding and it is not helping the Palm economy.

[Vampire Lestat]

Come to think of it, perhaps the Japanese taking control of Palm OS is a good thing. Now that we know for sure that Palm is planning a WM device, and has shown a breach in the loyalty towards Palm OS, isn't it best that Access Inc. have control and continue to offer Palm OS to anyone who is interested? LG and others.

If Palm Inc. gained full control over everything, they might have given up on Palm OS after perhaps seeing interesting WM sales.

IMPORTANT point to remember --> Palm Inc. is lucky they are a Palm OS monopoly right now. Because to tell you the truth, if Sony was still doing Palms, my anger towards Palm Inc. due to their WM Treo would translate into me buying solely Sony Palms until the anger passed. That logic in itself perhaps demonstrates that what Palm Inc. is doing now is wrong and will perhaps undermine their brand. Colligan knows he has a monopoly and that Palm enthousiasts have no one else to buy from, that is why he can permit himself the luxury of the WM market experiment while ensuring only a minimal backlash from Palm owners. He has us by the balls essentially.

Now that we know the WM Treo is real, Palm Inc. will have to ensure that all Palm devices meet the highest standards and represent incredible value compared to their WM devices. Else, many traditional Palm buyers may simply decide to go out and buy an HP or Dell PPC.

My intuition is that Colligan is risking his core business big time. He is probably looking at the failing handheld sales and using that as a justification that only a WM device can perhaps save the day. IMO, to restore handheld sales, they simply need to copy the quality they put into the Treo. How long have T3 users been begging for an upgrade? The forums are full of clear examples of what fans want. Why isn't this on the market? We know it can be done. Instead, long time fans are treated to a laggy LD. Come on Ed, get your act together, Palm OS is your milking cow, not WM. Don't risk undermining your brand. Get that quality up on the LD. Focus on PALM, and let HP Dell handled PPC. If Palms stop selling, then sell the company.

[Vampire Lestat]

WM + Palm = You can't have your cake and eat it to.

[Vampire Lestat]

"Congratulations! Welcome to the Palm Treo 700w smartphone, combining the power of Windows Mobile with the speed and ease of use of a Treo smartphone. Press Next to begin."

arrgh the more I see that Treo 700w pic and read that screen, I just want to scream out "F u Palm!".

Quite frankly, while many of us are trying to hold the Palm OS ship afloat by buying sometimes questionable hardware, seeing things like the above just makes you feel like you are wasting your time since Palm itself doesn't care. Makes you feel like instead blaming the lack of a mic, led, vib alarm, wifi, etc on the T5, or the lag on the HD, on the fact that Palm Inc is spending their time and money on a WM device.

Am I off base here guys? What do you think? If we are to be loyal to Palm OS, shouldnt Palm also be loyal? Isnt that basic common sense?

[aaaaaaaaaa]

WM + Palm = You can't have your cake and eat it to.
You really need to step back just a bit. Between your posts here and on PIC, I think you are taking this whole OS thing a bit too seriously. It is a PDA for pete's sake, wireless or not, it is just a PDA. :-)

[Gekko]

Vampire - Here's a lesson on life and loyalty -

Be Loyal To Yourself First

Years ago, companies offered their employees a secure and stable job, and it was common, even expected, for the employee to be loyal in return and remain with one company for much or even all of their career.

Unfortunately, those days are long gone. Companies change their direction all the time, and it’s a very competitive world out there. If employees don’t look out for themselves, no one is going to look out for them. You have to be loyal to YOURSELF these days.

The way I see it, your first responsibility is to yourself and your family. You owe it to yourself to get the best situation you can for yourself. That means in terms of money, job satisfaction, personal pride, where you live, etc. You have to go for what you want, and when it is offered to you on a platter, don’t pass it up.

Staying at your present job because the people are nice isn’t enough. Are the people at the other company nice? Would you be happier overall in the other job, taking into account the income, the working conditions, and all the other factors? Only you can answer that question. If you would be happier taking the job that’s being offered, I say go for it.

No one should ever spite you for doing what you think is best for you and your family.

Remember that at the end of the day, the President of the company is always going to do what's best for himself. Why shouldn't you?

[Vampire Lestat]

You really need to step back just a bit. Between your posts here and on PIC, I think you are taking this whole OS thing a bit too seriously. It is a PDA for pete's sake, wireless or not, it is just a PDA. :-)

You are perhaps right.

I remember not too long ago an interview with Ed Colligan where he bragged that he appreciated the loyalty of the Palm user base and that he felt Palm worked long and hard to earn that loyalty. My reaction is a bit in response to this WM Treo pseudo-backstabbing by Palm. Gekko is probably right in saying that Colligan couldn't actually care less about end users and the long term stability of the Palm OS product that made them what they are today.

Call me old fashion, but if I owned Palm, I would try to consolidate and build on my loyal customer base. I would understand that developers have invested years of their life in programming the OS, and many have built businesses around that. Consumers themselves have invested time learning the OS and putting all their personal data into Palm Desktop. If I owned Palm, I would definately never make a WM Treo. It would send ALL the wrong messages to my loyal customers, who made the company what it is today.

The WM Treo is not about giving consumers more choice, it is a backstabbing of the consumers who invested their trust in Palm, and who expect Palm's 100% on Palm products, and a 100% dedication towards promoting the Palm OS platform and ensuring stability.

Just saying: "We renewed til 2009 with PalmSource! We are commited!" is not enough. Palm is obviously scheming with Microsoft.

MARK MY WORDS, this WILL undermine consumer confidence in the product. Rule #1 in economics, always ensure confidence in the economy.

[Jimmie Geddes]

It is giving their customers a choice. Palm is a company, they need $$ to stay alive. Don't you think there's a reason it's called the Treo 700w??? I know there will be a Treo 700p, Palm will not let go of their smartphone lead. The Treo 650 is the best smartphone, plain and simple. This is just them making $$ fast, giving the other side a taste of Treo. I guarantee they will not disappoint us Palm users. I also see them putting WM 5 on their pda's. This is not going to be Treo specific. Palm is doing this to stay alive. It's a smart move, even though us Palm fans don't like WM, but we are not Palm the company. You've got to look at it objectively. Like Jeff said in his podcast, companies do what's best for the company and down the road. This is clearly what we are seeing. I am surprised we haven't seen the death of palm on wm sites already. CHOICE is going to be Palm's word, I see it in their ads, on their site. Mark my words. CHOICES

[Vampire Lestat]

In all due respect, that is all hogwash.

Let's be point blank honest here, a PALM WM device is a crystal clear vote of confidence in the Microsoft brand by Palm itself! This makes no sense! It is simply crazy. ROTFL

I don't care what Palm's studies show on how what Corp. America is calling for for WM in phones, Palm is a Palm OS company and they should not be in the business of selling another brand. Unbelievable.

Think about it, consumers who walk into a store have to choose between a known powerful Microsoft brand and Palm OS, a device that is made by Palm Inc, who itself sells Microsoft. Consumers will now always choose Microsoft because a) they will be confused by what the hell Palm Inc is and what they are selling. b) they want their data to be protected and stable under the Microsoft umbrella.

Those are just the new buyers class. The hardcore Palm loyalist class will take it even harder. A WM Treo means a) a vote of confidence in the quality of MS. b) Palm is not loyal, so why should we? c) Palm risk dumping Palm OS at any time since they are not loyal, so why invest years in Palm OS programming when devs can simply now put everything into WM?

The Treo WM being a "more choice for consumers" is a guise, a lie, a devious fallacy from a company that is wanting to try to get a quick cash fix at the expense and the risk of undermining the whole Palm economy.

Notice how Dell, HP and Microsoft don't give all these headaches to consumers and developers? Most of the news that comes out of that camp is positive and stable in comparison.

This WM Treo thing is indeed a backstabbing and I don't know how I and others will adapt to this.

I told Jeff that he should be part of the solution and not the problem. I made the mistake of not taking the time to fully grasp the implications of Palm developing and selling a competitor's product. If Palm doesn't believe in their product, then nor do I. If and when the Palm community goes silent, the forums dry up, the revenues fall, the developer community abandons Palm OS, and Palm goes back into the red, blame Colligan and his Microsoft product.

Palm Inc., the INVENTORS of the handheld. The pioneers. The developers, promoters and defenders of Palm OS; now selling Microsoft... sickening.

PS. By the way, notice how Jeff Kirvin, a long time staunch Palm OS enthousiast, all of a sudden is considering Palm's Microsoft Treo. This is just one example of the impacts that the move to MS will have. Expect millions of Jeff Kirvins to appear soon. Who knows, maybe yours truely as well. But you know what? Jeff might not go to the Palm WM Treo.. he already said he has issues with it, so what will happen? He will start looking at all the OTHER WM makers.... THAT is what will be Palm's nightmare; the splitting of the pie.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I will never go to a windows mobile device ever. I guarantee that. I believe Palm will still create Treo Palm os ones.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Jeff never said he was considering a wm treo. He said maybe the 2nd revision. I am speaking for myself. I love the palm os, the treo 650 has been the best device I have ever used. I don't think Palm is dropping us all with the new win mob treo, only picking up some more users.

[Vampire Lestat]

OK Jimmie, we will watch and see what happens.

WM Treo = Palm saying: "WE trust Microsoft and so can you!"

Oh yeah? OK then, I will be choosing.. hmm.. let me see here... Treo 700? hmm maybe, but let me see here at these HPs... Dells... Toshibas.. Acers... or let me look at all these new exciting Microsoft smartphones... hmm... decisions.. decisions.... SO many choices... so many, I almost already forgot about the Treo 700...

This is the corporate blunder of the decade.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I told Jeff that he should be part of the solution and not the problem. I made the mistake of not taking the time to fully grasp the implications of Palm developing and selling a competitor's product. If Palm doesn't believe in their product, then nor do I.
And this is why you don't get it. Palm is a hardware company. They don't make Palm OS and they don't compete with Microsoft.

How many different ways do I need to say this? Palm ain't "Palm OS". Those days are over, bye-bye.

All that this really means is that Palm is following in the footsteps of Garmin, Samsung and others that already make PDAs for both platforms.

[Vampire Lestat]

But Palm IS Palm OS in the minds of consumers. That is why Palm bought back their brand name for almost 30M$.

That is why I mentioned on numerous occasions that it would be more logical for Palm to give up its name and sell it back to Access; which will never happen.

Palm wants to be an OS agnostic hardware maker only? Fine, then let them give up the Palm brand name.

Addition: An OS agnostic hardware maker who has 100% of its clients on Palm OS. Palm better be ready to migrate all these users ASAP to WM before they are tempted by Palm's new dozen hardware competitors.

That is the part that you don't understand.

[Vampire Lestat]

WM Treo, "WE trust Microsoft and so should you!"

[PDAJah]

Future OS and mobile device landscape.

USA = WM
Asia = Palm Linux
Europe = Symbian

So the smart thing to do is what perhaps Motorola have been (badly), which is to sell h/w that runs a number of OSs

[Shamino_]

Future OS and mobile device landscape.

USA = WM
Asia = Palm Linux
Europe = Symbian

So the smart thing to do is what perhaps Motorola have been (badly), which is to sell h/w that runs a number of OSs

This is pure fantasy. Symbian may sell a lot of phones, but the technorati want Windows mobile devices. WM actually does very well in Europe, and was one of the main growth areas for PDA devices there, primarily due to inclusion of GPS in the handhelds. The latest WM phones all get introduced in Germany and UK first, like the HTC universal and Tornado etc. Nokia has already licensed Exchange Activesync (just like palm (co-incidence?)) and is delaying their HDD music phone to include WMA and PlayforSure. If anything WM is stronger in Europe than USA.

In Asia WM is also very popular, and Samsung has made a variety of WM phone devices, and there is a wide variety of WM devices made in Asia that do not even make it to Europe or USA. HTC is of course a Taiwanese company. Just because Access is Japanese does not mean much regarding their penetration of Asia.

In USA they are now finally subduing Palm of course.

It time to face reality - its going to be a Windows Mobile World.

[jomo]

jomo - average joes don't buy smartphones OR pdas. the average joe uses a motorola flip phone with basic PIM functions that they got free with their wireless contract.

the non-smartphone pda is a product without a market.

Actually, Gekko, I see a dozen different guys a day around my office carrying standard Palms or WM devices without all the fancy bells and whistles. I know a lot of people who also bought simple organizers. And let us not forget that the Zire 21 was Palm's best seller at one time, outstripping the Tungstens, with all their bells and whistles. Average Joes DO buy PDAs and smart phones. They just don't spend their time on websites pontificating about which features they love.

[Jimmie Geddes]

WM treo= Palm giving their customers choices, & making a ton of $$ & staying alive. Like Jeff said Palm is not Palm OS. They are a company that licenses an OS. As much as I don't want a WM Treo it is good for Palm to have one. Yeah consumers equate Palm OS to Palm, but consumers like to have choices, and Palm will play this up. Why must every move Palm makes anger you guys so much? The whole microsoft thing is for Palm to get back to the #1 spot of devices sold, plain and simple. It's not some ulterior "we trust microsoft" motive and abandon you ,that you keep saying. They want to be in the #1 position again, and this willl put them there.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Palm cares about reclaiming the #1 position, thats all this is. Stop looking for the "meaning" and the death of Palm OS. They are setting their sights on being back at #1 with devices sold, this is how business works.

[Alan G]

Jimmie Geddes wrote:
So will there be a special edition 1src podcast? Or wait till next week? I want to hear your thoughts Jeff. Will grassnet be covering this? I have both your podcast links up at my site, always look forward to hearing you guys.

I will be starting up a new Tech Talk podcast, Tech Talk: Windows Mobile & Blackberry edition for covering WM and Blackberry devices. I'll be covering the Treo 700w in that podcast. That way the Palm OS faithful won't have to listen to me talk about the 700w if they don't want to.

Alan G

[Jimmie Geddes]

I'll be listening, and look very forward to hearing your podcast. Even though I am a Palm OS faithfullist,lol. People need to remember that Palm is a company, not our girlfriend, they care about surviving and being #1 thats what businesses do.

[PDAJah]

@Shamino_

Look here: http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005071.htm

Q2 sales of smartphones shows Symbian sold 7.5m, WM about 1.9m and Palm about 1.4m - these are global sales. I suppose it is obvious why Symbian suppliers should swap to WM (which enables their devices to crash more often and reduce significantly battery life).

[Gekko]

here you go, vampire. maybe you can picket/protest outside. maybe you could get arrested as an act of defiance like my favorite lefty hollywood liberal, martin sheen.

http://ir.palm.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105423&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=760556&highlight=

"NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!"

[dragonsgames]

Sure Palm OS isn't the top seller, but it is so much better. Like Mac OS X, Apple could have been fine with out iPods or iTunes. Palm OS and Mac OS X are much better than Windows. It is just a fact.

[dragonsgames]

And you shouldn't come to a Palm OS website looking for a fight ;)

[JAmerican]

NEWSFLASH: Treo 700w even worse. The only thing that it has is EVDO which is favorable. Yet another device that sucks. Then the Zire 22 is another worthless device. The Tungsten X looks cool but yet still lacks a keyboard.

Equation used by Palm device designers...

Palm Handheld + Large built-in Keyboard + large screen = Non Reality.

JAmerican

[PDAJah]

I think if Palm sold Treos running WM, Palm OS & Symbian then in the next 12 months they could sell as many as 4m to 5m units (but for Europe Palm may need a UMTS device). A Treo running Symbian 9 & UIQ 3 would be a serious threat to SE in Europe. And then this next year Palm may be using ACCESS' Palm Linux and then they could increase sales with the Asian market (note: Symbian is very popular in many Asian markets such as India). So in 24 months we could see Palm selling 5m to 7m Smartphones globally if they follow a multi-OS strategy.

[craigdts]

Jimmie Geddes wrote:


I will be starting up a new Tech Talk podcast, Tech Talk: Windows Mobile & Blackberry edition for covering WM and Blackberry devices. I'll be covering the Treo 700w in that podcast. That way the Palm OS faithful won't have to listen to me talk about the 700w if they don't want to.

Alan G

Alan,

Just FYI, I'm a Palm user (more loyal to Palm, Inc. than palmsource), so I'd like to hear of all Palm, Inc. developments (WM & POS) in one podcast.

I don't care about blackberry. So you might want to check with your audience.

[johnsoax]

The STATIC is unbearable!

The sound quality on this podcast was the worst yet. Horrible, horrible screeching and static. Funnily, when Alan talked, no problem. When Jeff talks, so much noise!!!!

[Jeff Kirvin]

Funnily, when Alan talked, no problem. When Jeff talks, so much noise!!!!
Everybody complains about that when I talk.

Actually, I figured out what the problem is. You're hearing the hiss from my crap-*** PC subwoofer. I'll turn that off before I record again.

[dragonsgames]

Poor, poor Jeff... :(

[dragonsgames]

Everyone always gangs up on him ;)

[bemick]

Just thought I would mention that Alan mentioned that the iPod Nano had a hard drive. That is incorrect. It's flash based.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Just thought I would mention that Alan mentioned that the iPod Nano had a hard drive. That is incorrect. It's flash based.
Yeah, you know, it's, uh, one of them flash-based hard drives. Yeah, that's it.

[Jimmie Geddes]

lol. And for the real news of today :
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net/2005/09/there-will-be-treo-700p_112776337725284205.html
Looking forward to hearing your podcast this week Jeff!