PalmRevolt's Open Letter

[andy443]

Hello.
I'm developer of PalmRevolt application. I saw many accusations of theft of ideas or even source code from SkinUI by Dmitry Grinberg. It was very sad for me. I am sorry that I did not post the messages at forums for a long time and did not answer accusations in my address. I have been shocked by such quantity of accusations and disinformations and I tried to save my nerves by simply not reading all of these. :) Certainly it was my mistake. So I decided to make some testings and publish this letter to Palm community.

Let me briefly tell a history of the program. The idea of this program has arisen in my head in September, 2004. I never saw before any similar programs for OS4/OS5. But because of many problems in my life I started development of PalmRevolt only in March, 2005. In fact I only started to study ARM/Hack programming in March.

June, 2005: PalmRevolt already worked in many aspects when I've seen the SkinUI in June,2005. It was a GREAT SORROW for me!!! I could not work during several days. But I have already spent few months for development therefore I could not simply forget about this idea.

August, 2005: PalmRevolt has been released with only ONE DIFFERENCE, compared to how I thought about it before SkinUI: I planned that it will have the list of active applications, but then I've understood that the list of exclusions is more convenient.

Now about testing.
I made the simple benchmark utility which tests drawing speed of some elements of user interface. You can download ( http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/uibench.zip ) and try it on your Palm (source code included). Don't forget to uninstall one application and make soft reset before install and testing another one!
Please look at Comparison Table ( http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/uibench.html ) of two programs and make your own decision who steal whose ideas or source code.
As you can see, in most cases PalmRevolt much faster than SkinUI. So Dmitry's talks that PalmRevolt "much much slower", regarding its skin structure, looks like simply misinformation.
Also you can see some SkinUI's graphic glitches and screen flickering(when it overdraws an old Palm OS graphics) which PalmRevolt never had.

About skins.
I rejects any accusations of theft of ideas/look of my skins from SkinUI's skins. All skins are based on interface of original OS and my own thoughts how it should be looked! Nothing has been stolen neither ideas nor images! I saw the comments that I sell my skins. It is not true! All my skins available for downloading from my site. And you can download it for free.

Finally, I want to repeat: it was my idea, it was my dream and it is my realization of this idea. PalmRevolt was written by me from zero, nothing has been stolen. I've not disassembled SkinUI (unlike Dmitry).

I understand that this is only my words and you may not believe me, but this is all that I can say.

Some advertising :)
- Skinmakers are entitled to free-of-charge registration (look at skin documentation( http://3gxsoft.com/skins/bin/skindoc.zip ) for details).
- Beginning from Tuesday (6 Sept 2005) up to 15 Oct 2005, you can buy PalmRevolt for $12.95

Excuse me for my English.
Andrew.

[jjesusfreak01]

I dont think Dmitry really thought you looked at his source code. Knowing him, I doubt he believes you could get his source code from the program, as it is highly encrypted.

I believe the main argument would have been over the time of release of your program. You make it fairly clear in your statement here, but it was a little suspicious that your release candidates came out just before Dmitrys. If you were both working on similar programs, I see how this could be a good idea anyway. I think the only reason that these accusations were made is because of the timing of the release.

You did release a full featured version out of nowhere with the same version number as the current skinUI. To your testers, this means nothing, because they knew better, but to us, I think you can understand why we were suspicious.

I personally am sorry for any attacks I may have made on your software or skins anywhere. I may eventually decide to release a PalmRevolt skin. We'll see.

BTW, Dmitry accuses you of having slow code because 1) It has alot of 68k, and he uses ARM, and 2) You use tiling, which means the PDA has to some of the processing work itself, instead of just displaying the bitmaps.

Thanks alot for the letter, I plan on testing PalmRevolt again on a later date.

[treffmeister]

Hmm, JJF01, you wouldn't be a little prejudiced there at all, would you? Not in the Christian spirit, is that? :P

On a more serious note, I wholly received the impression from Dmitry that PalmRevolt was plagiarised from SkinUI. Add this to the fact that he outspokenly tried to make it seem worse, and I do believe this letter is fully justified. What I like about it is clear presentation of the facts, so you can (for example) test the speeds yourselves.

I'm not taking sides in this, just making sure that no-one takes this letter harshly. To the contrary, I think it's a great thing that we have these two talented developers in competition: it can only mean a better overall prodect. Only problem: cross-posting. Lol.

[igor_n]

I have the evidences of Andrew's work on skinning before SkinUI was released. There were few private emails about details of native API. Andrew's application wasn't mentioned but we were speaking about UI internals.

Also, m68k code presence can't be considered as potential slowdown. YAHM itself contains 1% of ARM code, but it doesn't affect on hack speed.

[johnwin]

Andrew - don't take the comments to heart! I love PalmRevolt and as I have a Zodic it is my only skinning option. Thanks for the great software!

[andy443]

I dont think Dmitry really thought you looked at his source code.
I read his comments...

You did release a full featured version out of nowhere with the same version number as the current skinUI.
Not exactly. SkinUI v0.98, PalmRevolt v0.92. :)
If I have released the version number 0.8, it would be less suspicious? :)

I personally am sorry for any attacks I may have made on your software or skins anywhere. I may eventually decide to release a PalmRevolt skin. We'll see.
I shall wait.

BTW, Dmitry accuses you of having slow code because 1) It has alot of 68k, and he uses ARM, and 2) You use tiling, which means the PDA has to some of the processing work itself, instead of just displaying the bitmaps.
1) 68K code is used only in interface part of program. It doesn't affect on speed.
2) It is only the theory. Palm also needs to make job on throw off unnecessary parts of the big images.

[FormerlyKnownAs]

$.02 (maybe $.03?)

First, I have been involved with skinUI since the early stages, and have played around a bit with PalmRevolt as well. I have been a supporter of Dmitry during his efforts, but I'm not a very good *** kisser, so sometimes it doesn't come across that way. On the other hand, I do feel that I have contributed to his effort somewhat. Beyond that, I think that competition is always healthy. (Although he-who-shall-not-be-named may jump in and say that dividing the market reduces profits and thus incentive for developers.)

All this finger pointing is getting pretty tiresome and I can guarantee you that it does nothing to improve anyone's standing in the marketplace. Dmitry did have a "knee-jerk" reaction to the release of PR so close to his anticipated release of sUI, but he has since laid off of any such accusations. It doesn't serve much purpose to react to this almost a month later. At this point, I don't think anyone who cares thinks that there has been any copying one direction or the other.

The benchmarking utility is a nice contribution, it puts some hard numbers out there to compare. However, without knowing exactly what it measures and how the numbers are tabulated, it is essentially useless. The source code is provided, but how many people are willing to read through it to determine what is being done? And of those, how many have the background to understand the code they are reading?

It reminds me of a year or two ago when members at 1src were preaching the gospel of the PalmInternals speed test (don't use any software with a high score!), when all it measured was the speed of pulling 10,000 keypress events from the stack. Useful info in some cases, but a very small slice of the performance picture. And even if you can only pull 10 keypress events from the stack per second, can you really get them on the stack that fast? But I digress...

But I'm afraid that's what we have here. I'll qualify this by saying that I don't play complex games on my PDA, but on my TH55 (not a very fast processor at all at 133mhz) I see no OBSERVABLE performance degradation with either PalmRevolt or skinUI (except for one short-lived sUI beta release a month or so ago). If you can't observe it, does it really matter if one is marginally faster than the other?

And a few corrections/clarifications:

The speed test results at 3GX indicate that "Graphical Buttons" are not skinned in skinUI. I am not 100% sure what you are referring to here, but I THINK they are the list arrows and up/down, right/left arrows? If so, you are right, they are not skinned in sUI 0.9.8.x, but they are in 0.9.9.x versions. And before anyone accused Dmitry of copying PR, I myself suggested this to him a while back. edit: On the other hand, if this refers to the Command Bar and/or Alert icons, they have been skinned in sUI for quite a while.

BTW, Dmitry accuses you of having slow code because 1) It has alot of 68k, and he uses ARM, and 2) You use tiling, which means the PDA has to some of the processing work itself, instead of just displaying the bitmaps.

jjf, you're a nice guy and I love you like a brother (OK, I've been looking at my 13 year old girls' internet material again), but you're getting into issues that might be a bit beyond your depth here. (And a bit beyond mine as well.) As Andy just pointed out, 68k code would only have a measurable effect on the application of skins if it were used in the "always active" code that applies the skin to an app. And note that I said "measurable", not "observable". ARM code execution really only has a significant impact on processor intensive code. In a very complex form, you might notice it in the redraws, but where ARM code really shines is complex computations like number crunching, jpeg decoding or music reproduction. (OK, and games.) Again, I'm stressing observable over measurable. But then ARM code has a much higher Gee-Whiz factor.

Dmitry has been preaching the advantages of slice-n-dice (my term, not his) over tiling since day one, but as Andy points out, this is the old double-edged sword. There is not much processor savings in applying a 320x120 bitmap to a 20x10 area as opposed to tiling a 1x1 bitmap to a 20x10 area. The real advantage to slice-n-dice, in my opinion, is versatility. Very large areas, such as the 80x80 buttons in some datebook and other apps, tend to look "flat" in a monochromatic expanse of color. A large bitmap allows you to add texture, such as brushed metal or subtle glass refraction effects that make these areas much more visually compelling.

Only the user can decide if the advantage of "prettier" skins is worth the disadvantage in skin size. And don't forget that sUI now supports skin compression which usually results in smaller skin file sizes than comparable PR skins. (On the other hand it is a pain in the *** to "decompile" the compressed skins, although I guess it depends on your point of view as to whether this is an advantage or a disadvantage.)

The final issue I would bring up in comparing the products is versatility.

PR seems to have better 5-way support, particularly with the ability to force normal 5-way functionality in apps that utilize it in unconventional ways. On the other hand, skinUI's ability to exclude subsets of functionality seems to me to be a tremendous advantage. In apps like the Toolbar+ selection screen I can keep the skinned interface and exclude the buttons where the graphic overlay is a problem. I can exclude elements that just don't look right in apps that do their own internal "skinning", such as Acid Image.

In closing, you really should give both apps an extensive trial before buying one. And Dmitry, for god's sake wrap this up and get it out on the market!

[JAmerican]

OMG!! Fighting over who's program is better. LMAO. Never expected this in the Palm world seeing usually when stuff comes out like this, only one app is available for it. There usually no competition.

JAmerican

[JAmerican]

BTW, the link to try PalmRevolt is dead on your front page.

http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/PalmRevolt.zip

JAmerican

[Joel]

What's the possibility of PalmRevolt and SkinUI merging into a new skinning program?

[Watcher]

Don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.

[SoS]

OMG!! Fighting over who's program is better. LMAO. Never expected this in the Palm world seeing usually when stuff comes out like this, only one app is available for it. There usually no competition.

JAmerican


yeah, like quickoffice/docs2go/mobisystemsoffice/...agendus/datebook5/a5/...
.versamail/agendusmail/snappermail.
..zlauncher/megalauncher/ispin/teallaunch/winlauncher/hilauncher/..
..ptunes/aeroplayer/...
.tcpcm/mmplayer/kinoma/....
..bonsai/shadowplan/progect/brainforest/...
backupbuddy/tealbackup/rescobackup/backupman..shall I continue..

come on!!!



ps...cant stop now...

[FormerlyKnownAs]

yeah, like quickoffice.....shall I continue..

come on!!!

Any chance you could put some breaks in this string so it doesn't extend the page width to god knows how long?

Thanks!

[FormerlyKnownAs]

What's the possibility of PalmRevolt and SkinUI merging into a new skinning program?

Anything's possible! Ever tried 10w40 and h2o?

[SoS]

Any chance you could put some breaks in this string so it doesn't extend the page width to god knows how long?

Thanks!


whoops, got carried awy...consider it done!

[SoS]

Anything's possible! Ever tried 10w40 and h2o?


now that is funny!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[andy443]

$.02 (maybe $.03?)
What does it mean?
The benchmarking utility is a nice contribution, it puts some hard numbers out there to compare. However, without knowing exactly what it measures and how the numbers are tabulated, it is essentially useless.
I've explained what means the numbers in http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/uibench.html - time to drawing 1000 objects(in the 100-th shares of second)
The source code is provided, but how many people are willing to read through it to determine what is being done? And of those, how many have the background to understand the code they are reading?
Should I also explain each line in source code? :)
If you can't observe it, does it really matter if one is marginally faster than the other?
Not matter , I agree
The speed test results at 3GX indicate that "Graphical Buttons" are not skinned in skinUI. I am not 100% sure what you are referring to here, but I THINK they are the list arrows and up/down, right/left arrows?
Simply start this utility and you'll see what does it mean...
Dmitry has been preaching the advantages of slice-n-dice (my term, not his) over tiling since day one, but as Andy points out, this is the old double-edged sword. There is not much processor savings in applying a 320x120 bitmap to a 20x10 area as opposed to tiling a 1x1 bitmap to a 20x10 area. The real advantage to slice-n-dice, in my opinion, is versatility. Very large areas, such as the 80x80 buttons in some datebook and other apps, tend to look "flat" in a monochromatic expanse of color. A large bitmap allows you to add texture, such as brushed metal or subtle glass refraction effects that make these areas much more visually compelling.
There are no size limitation in PalmRevolt skin. You can make 320x320 button... but for what? How it will be looked on small buttons?
Only the user can decide if the advantage of "prettier" skins is worth the disadvantage in skin size. And don't forget that sUI now supports skin compression which usually results in smaller skin file sizes than comparable PR skins. (On the other hand it is a pain in the *** to "decompile" the compressed skins, although I guess it depends on your point of view as to whether this is an advantage or a disadvantage.)
Before using, skins all the same should be decompressed.

[andy443]

BTW, the link to try PalmRevolt is dead on your front page.

http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/PalmRevolt.zip

JAmerican

Oops.. Corrected. I need to sleep more. :)

Johnwin, Thank you!

[JAmerican]

yeah, like quickoffice/docs2go/mobisystemsoffice/...agendus/datebook5/a5/...
.versamail/agendusmail/snappermail.
..zlauncher/megalauncher/ispin/teallaunch/winlauncher/hilauncher/..
..ptunes/aeroplayer/...
.tcpcm/mmplayer/kinoma/....
..bonsai/shadowplan/progect/brainforest/...
backupbuddy/tealbackup/rescobackup/backupman..shall I continue..

come on!!!



ps...cant stop now...

I haven't seen any reports of any of these companies going after each other. I mean seriously. What about CodeDiver??? Does it have a competitor? Also, KeyQuick? Um, Hi-Launcher isn't really a launcher like Z-Launcher. Its kinda on its own. Due to it has a multitasking feature no other app can compare to.

JAmerican

[jjesusfreak01]

jjf, you're a nice guy and I love you like a brother (OK, I've been looking at my 13 year old girls' internet material again), but you're getting into issues that might be a bit beyond your depth here. (And a bit beyond mine as well.) As Andy just pointed out, 68k code would only have a measurable effect on the application of skins if it were used in the "always active" code that applies the skin to an app. And note that I said "measurable", not "observable". ARM code execution really only has a significant impact on processor intensive code. In a very complex form, you might notice it in the redraws, but where ARM code really shines is complex computations like number crunching, jpeg decoding or music reproduction. (OK, and games.) Again, I'm stressing observable over measurable. But then ARM code has a much higher Gee-Whiz factor.You are right, but I only said what I did because Dmitry told me that directly (Dont tell him I said that).
I dont think Dmitry really thought you looked at his source code.I read his commentsTrust me, he doesnt think you can break his source code, he was just saying that.

[minimalposter]

I haven't seen any reports of any of these companies going after each other. I mean seriously.

I think the agendus/Datebk fight has been nasty in the past. I seem to remember certain "datebk" domains being bought by agendus.

I hope the above is right and if not I am sure the next poster will correct me :)

[bh77a]

PalmRevolt works great on my TE. Developer support is friendly and efficient.

[FormerlyKnownAs]

What does it mean?

I've explained what means the numbers in http://3gxsoft.com/palmrevolt/uibench.html - time to drawing 1000 objects(in the 100-th shares of second)

Should I also explain each line in source code? :)

Not matter , I agree

Simply start this utility and you'll see what does it mean...

There are no size limitation in PalmRevolt skin. You can make 320x320 button... but for what? How it will be looked on small buttons?

Before using, skins all the same should be decompressed.


"What we have here is a failure to communicate." No matter, my post did contain a few idioms, but I thought most of the concepts were pretty clear. Maybe not. At any rate, not worth getting into a series of explanations. Nothing was meant to be negative toward you or your program, and I do appreciate your response!

By the way, you said "Before using, skins all the same should be decompressed". If you know how to "decompress" Dmitry's compressed skins please share.

[andy443]

By the way, you said "Before using, skins all the same should be decompressed". If you know how to "decompress" Dmitry's compressed skins please share.

I do not know. I did not try to discover it and most likely I shall not try. What for you need this?

[Legodude522]

Andrew - don't take the comments to heart! I love PalmRevolt and as I have a Zodic it is my only skinning option. Thanks for the great software!

SkinUI now supports the Zodiac.

[dmitrygr]

Before using, skins all the same should be decompressed.
Do you mind if I correct you?
My skins are not decompressed before applying. they stay compressed and are decompressed right before drawing. This saves storage ram. most often used BMPs (dynamically determined) are cached in decompressed form up to a maximum memory amount (set to 128K right now i believe).

[DBH]

Unfortunately, due to the decompression (I think), my screens are redrawn fairly slowly on the T|2.

[lesliefranke]

Finally, I want to repeat: it was my idea, it was my dream and it is my realization of this idea. PalmRevolt was written by me from zero, nothing has been stolen. I've not disassembled SkinUI (unlike Dmitry).

I understand that this is only my words and you may not believe me, but this is all that I can say.


Andrew,

Keep up the good work. From what I can tell, you have made a good product that beat SkinUI to the marketplace. As a result Dmitry has attempted to slander you, throwing around accusations that he must know is not true, and others have picked up on this and flung around these charges.

It is nice to hear your side of the story.

[lesliefranke]

All this finger pointing is getting pretty tiresome and I can guarantee you that it does nothing to improve anyone's standing in the marketplace. Dmitry did have a "knee-jerk" reaction to the release of PR so close to his anticipated release of sUI, but he has since laid off of any such accusations.


Please point me to where this is the case.

You are right. The ultimate solution to all of these questions is for the user to give both apps a try and to see which one they like best. There are disadvantages and advantages to each one of these applications. I, for one, think that this may be skinning overkill but that is for each user to decide on their own.

[dmitrygr]

Unfortunately, due to the decompression (I think), my screens are redrawn fairly slowly on the T|2.



what version? older ones had a problem newer ones do not

[DBH]

what version? older ones had a problem newer ones do not
version 0.9.9.4 - It's not as slow as the older versions, but it still redraws slower than the original skins.

[sputnik]

I think the agendus/Datebk fight has been nasty in the past. I seem to remember certain "datebk" domains being bought by agendus.

I hope the above is right and if not I am sure the next poster will correct me :)

Yes this is correct, it was a nasty situation, kind of underhanded.

[FormerlyKnownAs]

All this finger pointing is getting pretty tiresome and I can guarantee you that it does nothing to improve anyone's standing in the marketplace. Dmitry did have a "knee-jerk" reaction to the release of PR so close to his anticipated release of sUI, but he has since laid off of any such accusations.

Please point me to where this is the case.

Hmmm... The age-old dillema: how do you prove that something DOESN'T exist? I'll turn the tables and ask you to point me to an instance of Dmitry making accusations against Andrew AFTER the first few days following the release of PalmRevolt. Not Dmitry's "followers", mind you, but he himself.

Don't let unrelated past transgressions influence your position on this (extremely minor) issue. I too have taken exception with some of Dmitry's more outrageous postings in the past, but we learn as we go along. In this case he had an understandable, if not entirely defensible, "knee-jerk" reaction to an unknown competitor beating him to the market, then got past it. He has since been handling the situation in a very civil manner. See his post in this thread.

And, fwiw, it may be a cultural thing but I'll take a little temporary rage over the "Oh, the anguish of it all" stuff in the first paragraph of this thread any day. And the timing is just bizarre. It took a month to get to the point where he could deal with this? C'mon, pal, buck up and get on with it. Just announce that you wrote a test utility and got some favorable comparative results.

Finally, this thread is just stirring a cauldron of trouble that had long since subsided. I can't imagine what Joel was thinking of when he made it a front page item on "Latest 1SRC News". This is news? More of a soap opera.

[lesliefranke]

Hmmm... The age-old dillema: how do you prove that something DOESN'T exist? I'll turn the tables and ask you to point me to an instance of Dmitry making accusations against Andrew AFTER the first few days following the release of PalmRevolt. Not Dmitry's "followers", mind you, but he himself.

Don't let unrelated past transgressions influence your position on this (extremely minor) issue. I too have taken exception with some of Dmitry's more outrageous postings in the past, but we learn as we go along. In this case he had an understandable, if not entirely defensible, "knee-jerk" reaction to an unknown competitor beating him to the market, then got past it. He has since been handling the situation in a very civil manner. See his post in this thread.

And, fwiw, it may be a cultural thing but I'll take a little temporary rage over the "Oh, the anguish of it all" stuff in the first paragraph of this thread any day. And the timing is just bizarre. It took a month to get to the point where he could deal with this? C'mon, pal, buck up and get on with it. Just announce that you wrote a test utility and got some favorable comparative results.

Finally, this thread is just stirring a cauldron of trouble that had long since subsided. I can't imagine what Joel was thinking of when he made it a front page item on "Latest 1SRC News". This is news? More of a soap opera.


I basically agree with you. In the end the quality of each one of the products will determine which one is used more. That being said, I am going to defend Joel and Andrew on this one. Yes the timing is a little late for Andrew's letter but what other solution does he have. I saw the accusations against PalmRevolt on at least Palm247, PalmAddict, Brighthand, TreoCentral and here. As the same way with a retraction in a newspaper, while many have seen the incorrect information, few will notice the retraction. The impression that something funny has occurred is already in people's mind.

What I am asking is where has Dmitry acknowledged that he may have made some "outrageous comments" that turned out not to be true. You and a few others have stated that these comments may have been out of line, but does Dmitry believe this? We only have his past comments to go on. Even on this thread he has avoided this issue and only continues to debate whose program works and his better.

[FormerlyKnownAs]

That being said, I am going to defend Joel and Andrew on this one. Yes the timing is a little late for Andrew's letter but what other solution does he have.

IMO, Joel is just stirring up trouble with this one and should rise above that. He generally does, and I'm not sure what the underlying problem is in this case. As to Andrew, this may not be PC, but his "other solution" is to "be a man about it." (Would "strong person" sound better? That's what I say to my 14 year old daughters, who almost never whine.)

I saw the accusations against PalmRevolt on at least Palm247, PalmAddict, Brighthand, TreoCentral and here.
...
What I am asking is where has Dmitry acknowledged that he may have made some "outrageous comments" that turned out not to be true. You and a few others have stated that these comments may have been out of line, but does Dmitry believe this? We only have his past comments to go on.

I may be out of line here as I don't frequent those boards, but I would imagine that the case is the same there as it is at 1src. Most, if not all of these accusations were made by Dmitry's "supporters", not by Dmitry. He has a weird cult-like following, probably because he is young and even younger people seem to idolize the fact that he produces products that compete with the "adults". He does have a lot of programming talent and ability, but he cannot actually control these people, nor is he responsible for their actions. If you want retractions, make a list of those who voiced the allegations and go after them.

Please note that I was the one who initially announced PR here at 1src. (At least I don't think anyone preceded me.)

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94096

Now look at the 4th post down for Dmitry's personal reaction to that announcement on the same day. He did "blow up" on his own web site, but quickly reeled it back in. Here, he handled it in a, dare I say it, professional (if grammatically weak) manner.

EDIT: OK, I got to wondering and did a search. Andrew did, in fact, announce PalmRevolt in the General section on 8/9, but it went largely unnoticed with only 3 replies. In one of these Dmitry linked to the thread on his site where he did make some accusations. (You will also find some rather embarrassing rants against Dmitry in that thread by yours truly.) You should notice, however that by sometime during the second day he was past making accusations and moving on to solve problems in his application. You may also notice that one release was dedicated to me. It was a pretty funny (in hindsight) lambasting "dedication" that he later removed.


Even on this thread he has avoided this issue and only continues to debate whose program works and his better.

And at this point that is exactly the right thing to do. This issue of code steeling, flying accusations, personal attacks and innuendo is DEAD, and the dead should be allowed to rest in peace. Time to move on to a healthy competitive environment.

[cyberdude]

Just an FYI. Andrew asked myself as well as some others to beta PalmRevolt around when SkinUI was in the beginning of version .8x. PR has not changed much since then except for a few revisions Andrew made on his own and some we suggested to him. I was beta testing SkinUI at the same time I was doing PR. As someone who has tested both, and felt loyal to one then the other then back and forth, I feel I am less biased than some others. Both apps have some superb coding and some that could be better (although I am not a coder by any definition). Both apps do certain things very well that the other app does not. The deciding call for me (yes I have decided - for better or worse) is that Dmitry has not been able YET to fix what he says is a PalmOS 5 bug that makes it so my T|T shows only half of any horizontal scroll bar - all skins - and cuts off some graphical elements - some skins - (although this latter problem with graphical elements does not seem to occur with the cobalt skin) when I use any version of skinui including .9.9.4. So I just bought PalmRevolt from Andrew's website for 12.95. I will continue to keep my SkinUI upto date and keep testing it and commenting on it at palmpowerups.com.

[kiteandcamera]

FWIW...Both apps are unnecessary, but a whole lot of fun to use. PalmRevolt is much more stable on my NX-80; skinUI has better looking skins. Following the lead of cyberdude, I will purchase my copy of PR tomorrow and await newer and better skins. I will keep an eye on sUI development and give it a trial when it is finally ready for 'prime time' release.

[andy443]

And, fwiw, it may be a cultural thing but I'll take a little temporary rage over the "Oh, the anguish of it all" stuff in the first paragraph of this thread any day. And the timing is just bizarre. It took a month to get to the point where he could deal with this? C'mon, pal, buck up and get on with it. Just announce that you wrote a test utility and got some favorable comparative results.
Let me add my five pennies to this talk... :)

This thread has been inspired by few things:
-I remember that Dmitry had posted various accusations but I don't remember that he had posted refutations or apologies... So, many people continue to count me the thief. And when somebody ask something about my program somebody else answers it: "Why are you trying this secondary stolen copy? Try the original SkinUI.". I'm tired of this and I wanted to restore my name. I make UIBench to show that there is no stolen code in PalmRevolt and to refute his comments about PalmRevolt's speed.
-And marketing of course...

May be, it was a little more pathetic than needed. But I tried to change a sight of people at me from "Big Bad Thief & Swindler" to "ordinary man". As I told before, I did not read different forums before because I really felt sick from this. In addition I was too busy on my official work. Therefore we have this delay.

[madmaxmedia]

And, fwiw, it may be a cultural thing but I'll take a little temporary rage over the "Oh, the anguish of it all" stuff in the first paragraph of this thread any day. And the timing is just bizarre. It took a month to get to the point where he could deal with this? C'mon, pal, buck up and get on with it. Just announce that you wrote a test utility and got some favorable comparative results.

I don't think Andy was whining about anything at all. He just took the opportunity to explain himself.

He didn't overreact as he might have a month ago, and might have never made any sort of public statement. But I think there were still some misconceptions about his program that were hurting his sales unneccesarily.

[jwm]

I decided to go for PalmRevolt over SkinUI. For me, its been more stable with everyting else I've got going on, and I just like it.

So there you go.

Andy443, dmitrygr: Despite the exchange of words all round, you chaps are doing some sterling work and I for one am pleased to be in a position to be able to pick from two decent skinning apps for my TH55. Fact is, I only need one and it was a simple choice of which one best suites my needs. I look forward seeing the outcome of any future development projects you guys care to take on. :)

[dmitrygr]

worst part is, we're both russians :-)

[FormerlyKnownAs]

worst part is, we're both russians :-)

I propose you each do a shot of frozen Stoli and get back to programming!

(Not that I advocate underage drinking, Dmitry!)

[DBH]

Andy443, dmitrygr: Despite the exchange of words all round, you chaps are doing some sterling work and I for one am pleased to be in a position to be able to pick from two decent skinning apps for my TH55. Fact is, I only need one and it was a simple choice of which one best suites my needs. I look forward seeing the outcome of any future development projects you guys care to take on. :)
I couldn't agree more! Both apps have their advantages and disadvantages, but, nevertheless, they're both great! I may have to go with PalmRevolt myself, because, as jwm mentioned, it just better fits my needs for the apps I run. But then, if I wasn't so picky about a couple of minor problems I have with skinUI, I'd go with that in a second!

Congrats, guys, keep up the awesome work! :D

Dave

[A. Nonymous]

Now that you're both reading this thread: any possibility either program will support low res?

[dmitrygr]

skinUI does

[jjesusfreak01]

skinUI does
Does it downsample hires, or does it only work if it is designed as a lowres skin.

[dvp]

Hmmm, here are some diferent situations, one app has benn released, the otherone not yet, so.... no front competition is posible. If your choice is PR, may be that when SU are released some details you loose. Just think about it.

[dmitrygr]

Does it downsample hires, or does it only work if it is designed as a lowres skin.


both actually

[KevinAgot]

I appreciate the openness and honesty of the Palm Revolt developer. It's always good to hear both sides. I've downloaded skinUI and now I'm going to try out Palm Revolt and see for myself. I may just end up taking up the discounted offer.

[andy443]

Now that you're both reading this thread: any possibility either program will support low res?
Perhaps later... I'm not sure.

[ahsirg]

SkinUI supports Zire 31 very well! So lores - SkiUI.

[Unreg8854]

I'm missing an apology on this thread...

[Java-isme]

Yes the apology for any accusation or negative opinion for Andy, especially for dymitry himself that ever post the accusation from his post. Come on man you has to be sportif, you made mistake that involve with someelse than you should say apology to the person. dont be selfish. you have to say it on public post coz its start from the public forum.i agree that andy feel sad coz other skinui supporter make a statement that palmrevolt is not the original.I agree with the competition, but the point in this post is do you have brave to make an apology statement to andy because of any accusation you made, dmitry? come on be a gentleman.if u do than the whole problem is clear, only the competition keep going on.i am very happy for dmitry if he do that, coz thats mean he is a good person. (sorrry no offense)

[Unr559]

I think that they are still fighting... Dmitry just added a tool for his skinui to convert the skins that where made for palmrevolt... Even though Andy asked him not to do it because those skins are his property. Seems to me that someone doesn't like competition.

[U571]

Found somthing interesting bout dmitry... http://www.mmplayer.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10291&highlight=#10291 (check the page be4 that one to understand the topic)... According to himself, he welcomes competition...

[dmitrygr]

I think that they are still fighting... Dmitry just added a tool for his skinui to convert the skins that where made for palmrevolt... Even though Andy asked him not to do it because those skins are his property. Seems to me that someone doesn't like competition.

asked? where?

usually when you ask somebody for something, they know about it



property? yeah that is why i do not distribute his skins converted. users are free to decide how they use the TOOL i provide! Do you complain to knife makers for a mugging involving a knife? Hell no! knife is just a tool, as is skinUI - how you use it is up to you. :p

also i DO NOT make people pay for BETA versions, mine are FREE



Also funny how the guest is talking to himself ( :confused: ). its one and the same person - same IP addr even ( :mad: )

[dragonsgames]

He is charging for Betas? :eek:

That isn't right! :mad:

[dragonsgames]

So Unreg8854 and Java-isme was the same people? Ha ha ha :)

[dmitrygr]

He is charging for Betas? :eek:

That isn't right! :mad:


indeed, indeed

[jwm]

users are free to decide how they use the TOOL i provide! Do you complain to knife makers for a mugging involving a knife? Hell no! knife is just a tool, as is skinUI - how you use it is up to you. :p

Hi dmitrygr. Can this tool be used on any skins, or just those for PalmRevolt?

[pruss]

Maybe Dmitry and the PalmRevolt developer could agree not to convert skins that have some flag set in them, and then the skin designer could decide whether their skin could be converted or not. Alternately, Dmitry's converter could recognize those skins that are packaged with PalmRevolt, and refuse to convert them.

My Font Collector refuses to convert Fonts4OS5 and FontSubst fonts unless one is a registered Fonts4OS5 or FontSubst user. :-)

[dmirygr_]

why? i CLEARLY remember andy's site saying, and i quote "skins are free to download and use". it never says registration id required to use them. in fact it implies the opposite. i so far see no reason to not allow users to convert whatever whenever and however they want. That is the poiunt of a universal tool.

[dmitrygr_]

Hi dmitrygr. Can this tool be used on any skins, or just those for PalmRevolt?


why? is there a third app to skin the ui?

[dmitrygr_]

why? i CLEARLY remember andy's site saying, and i quote "skins are free to download and use". it never says registration id required to use them. in fact it implies the opposite. i so far see no reason to not allow users to convert whatever whenever and however they want. That is the poiunt of a universal tool.

i refuse to place bounds on the use of my tools. the bouds will be decided by the users. i did nothing wrong by making the tool and see little reason to limit it. in fact the whole point of all my software is to REMOVE limits, not place them.

if andy suddenly changes the rules of how his skins can be used it will be upto users to decide to abide by the rules or break them; as it is up to the muggers to decide to use a knife or not, not up to the knife manufacturers.

[dmitrygr]

all those 3 posts by "dmitrygr_" were me of course



anyways andy is welcome to email me with his ideas and i will honestly consider them but as you see my point is quite elegant and simple: i am not responsible for how my tools are used, as clearly stated here (http://palmpowerups.com/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=General#8)

[jwm]

why? is there a third app to skin the ui?
No idea. Just asking.

So what's the answer?

[Unrg8874]

all those 3 posts by "dmitrygr_" were me of course



anyways andy is welcome to email me with his ideas and i will honestly consider them but as you see my point is quite elegant and simple: i am not responsible for how my tools are used, as clearly stated here (http://palmpowerups.com/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=General#8)


Not so fast, pal... You say that you are not responsible for how people uses your tools/software, but I understand that you live in America (US, isn't it?) Then you are under the DRM. To make it simple, you are NOT allowed to sell/give any tool that's used to crack a protection. I understand that the skins don't have exactly a "protection", but they are still copyright'd and property of Andy, who obviously doesn't want them to work on skinUI and your "tools" can be easily seen as cracking tools. BTW, Andy HAS asked you not to do it on your own forums http://palmpowerups.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=138&start=60 (just search for Andy)
I'm to lazy to register so I just post again when I want to add somthin (but I like this username... well not too much...).

[Unrg8874]

It wasn't "Andy" but "Andrew"

[jjesusfreak01]

Not so fast, pal... You say that you are not responsible for how people uses your tools/software, but I understand that you live in America (US, isn't it?) Then you are under the DRM. To make it simple, you are NOT allowed to sell/give any tool that's used to crack a protection. I understand that the skins don't have exactly a "protection", but they are still copyright'd and property of Andy, who obviously doesn't want them to work on skinUI and your "tools" can be easily seen as cracking tools.
Not to say I support either side, but Andrew uses nothing to protect his skins at all. If I wanted to, I could use a program called Tbmpedit to open up his skins on my PDA and pull out images or edit images. Using a program called PFCD I could do the same on my computer. The reason is that his skins are just a collection of resources (most of which are simple bitmaps), that have absolutely no protection at all. Dmitry simply made a program that takes the bitmaps from a PR skin, and puts them into a skinUI skin. There is technically nothing illegal as long as Andrew makes no attempts at actual skin copy protection methods (I dont think database copy protection would count in this case). Dmitry releases his own skins compressed, which in itself can be contrued as a copy protection method, because, without cracking a proprietary compression algorithm, there is no way to get the source of his skins. If Andrew adds any sort of external compression or encryption to the skins, it will become illegal to make a converter for them, as this would require Dmitry to break his encryption method. Do you see how it works? As far as the skins themselves go, I am not sure to what degree you can actually claim copyright, as most of the bitmaps for his skins are from various OSs, as are the bitmaps from my OSX skin (which is why my copyright notice is a little different than others). BTW, I think you meant DMCA, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

[dmitrygr]

Not so fast, pal... You say that you are not responsible for how people uses your tools/software, but I understand that you live in America (US, isn't it?) Then you are under the DRM. To make it simple, you are NOT allowed to sell/give any tool that's used to crack a protection. I understand that the skins don't have exactly a "protection", but they are still copyright'd and property of Andy, who obviously doesn't want them to work on skinUI and your "tools" can be easily seen as cracking tools. BTW, Andy HAS asked you not to do it on your own forums http://palmpowerups.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=138&start=60 (just search for Andy)
I'm to lazy to register so I just post again when I want to add somthin (but I like this username... well not too much...).


FYI: DRM is NOT a law, its a technique of protection. the lay you mean is DMCA and andy is in russia and in mother russia DMCA f*u*c*k*s you!


anyways, i will finish with a famous quote: "dont like me? sue me", andy!

[dmitrygr]

If Andrew adds any sort of external compression or encryption to the skins, it will become illegal to make a converter for them, as this would require Dmitry to break his encryption method.


F* that. He is in russia. no DMCA in russia. :D

[Unrg8874]

F* that. He is in russia. no DMCA in russia. :D
Bad again, pal... Russia signed the copyright act (not DMCA (made a mistake with DRM)) wich grants rights to the author since he made something (yes, no need to register)... And remember that you are the one that may have problems with DMCA because you are in the US (right, it even applies if it was a work made outside).
JJF points somkething interesting though... It depends on where did he take those bitmaps from (if he drew them, then they belong to him...), but if he just took them away from an apple bitmap, then he can't claim ownership (I'm not sure about the policy of apple about this if it was the case).

[dmitrygr]

F that! sue me!

[JAmerican]

Wow. Battle of the developers. JJF does make a point though.

JAmerican

[Robyr]

Wow, just drop it, i personally support Dmitry, since i see nothing wrong with his program using PR skins, all you DRM and DMCA nazis can go away :(

BTW am I the only one thats a little scared that you can actually have the sort of deep cunundrums that you see in the DMCA and copyright law in general? You shouldnt have to have philosophical discussions about laws. This country is in a downward spiral already ;( Its been a nice 200+ years :P

[JAmerican]

Wow, just drop it, i personally support Dmitry, since i see nothing wrong with his program using PR skins, all you DRM and DMCA nazis can go away :(

BTW am I the only one thats a little scared that you can actually have the sort of deep cunundrums that you see in the DMCA and copyright law in general? You shouldnt have to have philosophical discussions about laws. This country is in a downward spiral already ;( Its been a nice 200+ years :P
Agreed.

JAmerican

[dmitrygr]

DMCA nazis

the best name ever given!


BTW am I the only one thats a little scared that you can actually have the sort of deep cunundrums that you see in the DMCA and copyright law in general? You shouldnt have to have philosophical discussions about laws. This country is in a downward spiral already ;( Its been a nice 200+ years :P


agreed. issue dropped

[Robyr]

Wee :) Glad I actually made sense to the people that matter ;)

[lhandra]

Fireeeee... we are in fireeee. please Moderator do something more wisely, like cooling down statement or even just close this thread. coz i think this thread is not become very usefull for us to be digging good information. It is just has 2 side that compete each other, like a boxing ring.i think we should use forum for discuss a good thing or make a solution from a bad thing.
(I am so sory coz i wanna be netral in this situation, i hope my english words did not make a wrong explanation)

[jwm]

Fireeeee... we are in fireeee. please Moderator do something more wisely, like cooling down statement or even just close this thread. coz i think this thread is not become very usefull for us to be digging good information.

I agree - what's going on here?

I'm gonna bump words from my previous post back to here as we appear to be somewhat off focus...

"Despite the exchange of words all round, you chaps are doing some sterling work and I for one am pleased to be in a position to be able to pick from two decent skinning apps for my TH55. Fact is, I only need one and it was a simple choice of which one best suites my needs. I look forward seeing the outcome of any future development projects you guys care to take on."

Come on chaps, lets chill and move on.

[Gero]

yep, this thread is definitely turning sour. It was interesting to start with, but considering the language being used, i'm just gonna keep well away from both apps... Dimitri sounds like a complete nutter.. dude, i assumed you were intelligent being that your a developer?... why do you feel the need to swear?..

Moderaters, isnt this supposed to be an intelligent forum?.. Can we just close this off and leave the developers to developing?

[WildCelt]

Why, oh why, did you resurrect a thread that has been sleeping peacfully for several weeks? :)

[mysource]

PalmRevolt problems with Piloc
Once the two software are installed I get resets.
Do you have a solution for this problem?

[pruss]

Maybe you can use something else instead of Piloc, depending on the language you are using.

[mysource]

Maybe you can use something else instead of Piloc, depending on the language you are using.
Unfortunately there is nothing else.

[pruss]

Unfortunately there is nothing else.

What's the language?

[mysource]

What's the language?

Hi Alex
It's ok I can leave with out pRevolt. I'm using the Greek Piloc for Centro. In the past their was another s/w called Intertype. Piloc is the only one available and thanks to them we can have our language supported.
Take care and I would like to thank you for your contribution to the Palm os users.