1SRC Podcast ThirtySix

[Jeff Kirvin]

Along with Tech Talk's Alan Grassia, we cover Microsoft's new SyncToy, this week's 1SRC Editorial and why we can finally stop worrying about the Windows Mobile Treo, and what Palm's new business might really mean. Is the LifeDrive just a hesitant beginning. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1184)]

[tungsten t5]

gonna listen now. I Hope jeff cut back on the sugar,and turned a fan on :)

[Alan G]

Mitch, don't worry. I was on hand for this podcast to make sure that no controlled substances where used during the recording of this podcast! :)

Alan G

[STBXXL]

Great podcast. I really want to try out SyncToy, but for some reason the validation at Microsoft's web page didn't work out, although I run a genuine Windows XP Home installation. It's a pity but I guess I have to live without it. :(

Cheers.

[Kevin Flansburg]

Im pretty sure that EDT is GMT - 5:00
that is what it is in georgia

[Papageoff]

Im pretty sure that EDT is GMT - 5:00
that is what it is in georgia


I thought that was EST?

Geoff

[STBXXL]

Great podcast. I really want to try out SyncToy, but for some reason the validation at Microsoft's web page didn't work out, although I run a genuine Windows XP Home installation. It's a pity but I guess I have to live without it. :(

Cheers.

OK. I don't give up easily. I finally got SyncToy downloaded and installed. I only had to install a lot of other programs/services first, perform a handful of PC restarts, etc. So overall quite an easy and painless installation just as it should be. Sometimes 25+ years of experience with computers come in handy for installing a nifty little tool. :rolleyes:

Anyway, once I got SyncToy running I immediately started loving it. What a handy tool! Very intuitive to use and it makes my T5 even more powerful. Thank you very much for this tip, Jeff. :D

Cheers.

[Dick Tracy]

Great cast guys. Unfortunately Tyler won't be having you as guests since his #8 downloaded the same time as this one. Thanks for the tip on SyncToy. Will be sharing it tomorrow with some geeks I do volunteer work with to move a project along.

[Joel]

I'm currently listening to the SyncToy portion of the podcast. It's exactly what QuickSync does but only on OS X. :)

[sr6]

The well known and respected Antoinne claims to have a source which says something different.

http://discuss.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=768883&postcount=193

Barye;
The engadget gathering was kool, but I resent that prototypical geek look - I am mos def a sterotype breaker 8^) And with not having a Treo, I had to be one of the non BB/non Sidekick crowd to have a little fun

If you remember the Q/A session, they all but assured that it was coming a few times before the first Treo question...will make for an interesting listen if they publish that Q/A session.

Yea, I was in the first mention about him saying that Roc would sell him the 670, thats insane, but makes for an interesting rumor all the more.

Overall, we can now say that its coming, probably in fall, and most probably on VZW sooner rather than later (though my sources tell me that the other carriers are in testing as well).

http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=92500&page=10&pp=20

[Legodude522]

The Treo in the video running Windows Mobile is probably fake. Jeff Kirvin says it looks real from the video. But if you notice in the video, the screen is not tapped. Looks like a slideshow to me.

Any comments Jeff Kirvin?

[Legodude522]

Also how did you do the conversation online? Did you use Skype or something?

[lekeno]

Great entertaining podcast.

I tried SyncToy and it's cool.
It is supposed to be for XP only but I could install it on windows 2000. It seems to work perfectly.

Now, what would be neat is to figure out how to launch SyncToy when you plug your palm (in drive-mode) or put your card into your reader.

The help files mention that there is a command line option to automate the synchronization. It is something like :
c:\program files\Microsoft\SyncToy\SyncToy.exe -R
runs all the synchronization tasks

c:\program files\Microsoft\SyncToy\SyncToy.exe -R"SyncPairName"
runs your synchronisation pair with the name "SyncPairName".

There is a software called "Autorun USB"* but it is not free. I tried it and it kept scanning the floppy disk drive (it was making sounds) so I uninstalled it.

Anyone has an idea ?

*: autorun.inf does not work with removable storage.

[twrock]

Interesting podcast, Jeff.

Re: the questions you ask near the end:

Synctoy? Beautiful! MS puts out a free tool that should allow me to dump my "batch-file/Xcopy-file-backup-to-an-external-hard-drive" system. I'm quite pleased. Thanks for the tip.

WinMob Treo rumors put to rest? No way. These types of rumors are not going away any time soon. Unless Palm comes right out and refers to the videos and pictures and explains that although there are prototypes out there, they have no intention of releasing such a beast any time in the foreseeable future, we will continue to hear about these rumors for some time to come.

Hi-res tablet running PalmOS? Yes, yes, and yes again! Of course that depends on how you describe such a device. It still needs to fit in my pocket comfortably. Otherwise we might as well wait for the mini-laptops to drop in price. It still needs decent battery life. It definitely needs a hi-speed net connection.

Then again, there is so much movement thoughout the industry to come up with the mobile devices that people want that I'm not sure I will still want the same thing by the time Palm delivers such a device. For instance, what will the Nokia 770 develop into over time? What kind of apps will the developers create for the alternate platforms. How many apps will actually survive the migration to PalmLinux? There's a lot of unknowns still.

Speaking of other devices, did anyone notice this reference on PalmAddict to the Jeff Hawkins interview: "In the interview that took place some time in June (after the LifeDrive was released), Mr. Hawkins talks about a "third business" that he's working on at Palm...." (http://tinyurl.com/ddql9) So what's the truth on this? When was the interview?

[Legodude522]

Speaking of other devices, did anyone notice this reference on PalmAddict to the Jeff Hawkins interview: "In the interview that took place some time in June (after the LifeDrive was released), Mr. Hawkins talks about a "third business" that he's working on at Palm...." (http://tinyurl.com/ddql9) So what's the truth on this? When was the interview?
The interview was posted July 8th. When was the Lifedrive anounced? Perhaps there was some time for the interview to be posted. http://tinyurl.com/d6o7x

[Alan G]

Dick Tracy wrote:
Great cast guys. Unfortunately Tyler won't be having you as guests since his #8 downloaded the same time as this one.

I've been referring to this week as Treo Rumors Week, think of it as Discovery's Shark Week, just with out all the water. Anyway, Tyler will have to do another cast. A triple dose of Palm Powered goodness!

Alan G

[twrock]

(Follow-up) Nope, the "rumors" are not ending any time soon.
"HTC 'to build' Palm's Windows-based Treo" The Register, Published Thursday 11th August 2005 10:20 GMT (http://tinyurl.com/dk9tb)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Also how did you do the conversation online? Did you use Skype or something?
We used TeamSpeak, which has built-in recording capability.

[Jeff Kirvin]

The Treo in the video running Windows Mobile is probably fake. Jeff Kirvin says it looks real from the video. But if you notice in the video, the screen is not tapped. Looks like a slideshow to me.

Any comments Jeff Kirvin?
Windows Mobile 5 allows full control from the d-pad, just like the newer Palms. Tapping the screen is rarely necessary.

[Legodude522]

But tapping the screen would help prove its real. Why leave that out. It is possible that it just wasn't noticed while making it.

[Unregitred]

Now Brighthand has jumped on the bandwagon

WM Treo in Q1 2006

http://brighthand.com/article/WinMo_Treo_in_Q1_2006

I do not think anyone else has any new info, they are all speculating on the video, but the way things are going people would be surprised if there is no WM Treo next year.

BTW Jeff, you have always said in such a large and growing market as smartphones there does not have to be a winner for everyone to do well. However if the two competing OS's are in the same company, its clear at some point the one may be dropped. Presumably this will be the one requiring the most development resources, more support costs and less sales. Sounds like the HTC device will come very cheap development wise, with HTC basically doing ALL of the work.

POS is now in real danger.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'll just reiterate here that I don't believe Palm has any intention of releasing a Windows Mobile device, even if they have played around with the concept in the labs.

[Dick Tracy]

Someone other than Palm might release a Treo lookalike. If that happens I think the lawyers will get much richer.

[Gekko]

I'll just reiterate here that I don't believe Palm has any intention of releasing a Windows Mobile device, even if they have played around with the concept in the labs.

You're a contrarian indicator. Once again, your actions, exhortations and commentary gets it exactly wrong.

-----

Report: HTC to manufacture Microsoft-based Treo smartphones for Palm
Daniel Shen, Taipei and outside sources; Steve Shen, DigiTimes.com [Thursday 11 August 2005]

Palm is likely to outsource the production of its next generation of Treo-series smartphones, built using Microsoft’s operating system, to Taiwan-based High Tech Computer (HTC), with volume shipments to begin in the first quarter of next year, according to an August 10 report from the Chinese-language Commercial Times.

HTC will manufacture the new Treo smartphones on an ODM basis, instead of the OEM contract the company received from Palm for the production of the Treo 650 smartphone, the paper said.

HTC declined to comment on the report, citing client confidentiality.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050811A5021.html

[Unreitered]

Someone other than Palm might release a Treo lookalike. If that happens I think the lawyers will get much richer.

Like this:
http://surur.sytes.net/hpvstreo.png

Unlike the WM Treo this one has WIFI G, Edge, Bluetooth, and GPS navigation plus software (TomTom in ROM) built-in, in a package only slightly larger.

Feature wise (accept for the deplorable screen resolution) it slaughters the Treo.

[Jeff Kirvin]

You're a contrarian indicator. Once again, your actions, exhortations and commentary gets it exactly wrong.
Yes, I've seen the DigiTimes article. This is an example of the press picking up rumors from the web and running with them. It's happened before. HTC already makes the Treo 650, so it's pretty obvious they'll make the next Treo as well. But we still have no idea which OS that next Treo will run. I'd bet dollars to donuts that it's not Windows Mobile.

And I love you too, Gekko.

[tungsten t5]

Hey legodude522! It's me! Windowsrookie! when did you join 1src?

And Jeff How come we haven't hered anything about the T6 (XX) for months? I still tink it's fake.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Like this:
http://surur.sytes.net/hpvstreo.png

Unlike the WM Treo this one has WIFI G, Edge, Bluetooth, and GPS navigation plus software (TomTom in ROM) built-in, in a package only slightly larger.

Feature wise (accept for the deplorable screen resolution) it slaughters the Treo.
I keep telling you. It ain't about features, it's about benefits. The size matters. The screen resolution matters. The integration matters. The UI matters.

Give me three benefits well designed than 10 features crammed in.

[Cyker]

Mini Tablet: 'eh? What do you mean? TH55 is a mini tablet?

HotSync: I still use HotSync quite a lot; I can edit Todo's and Calender stuff on the desktop (Which I prefer TBH..!) and sync them over that way; I don't see how I could do this with SyncToy. That and SyncToy doesn't work in Win98 :(
So no, not irrelevent, at least not yet...!


You guys need to do more of these group-casts, they're funny :)
(The latency might be a problem 'tho, judging by the sounds of thing :p :D)

[intellidryad]

...However if the two competing OS's are in the same company, its clear at some point the one may be dropped. Presumably this will be the one requiring the most development resources, more support costs and less sales. Sounds like the HTC device will come very cheap development wise, with HTC basically doing ALL of the work.

POS is now in real danger.

Yes, I agree that anything targeted and confronted aggressively by Micro$oft is in danger.

As to the criteria you listed as how the "OS to be droped" is choosed, I don't agree with you. That way of choosing might be true with HP, Dell or any typical PC company. But, if you've read the book "Piloting Palm", that's just not the style of Palm. If that's the way of making choices at Palm, they wouldn't even create Palm OS in the first place; they'll continue to make hotsync or other software for the Newton and evntually die off unknown.

As long as Jeff, Ed, Rob and the other guys from the early days are still at Palm, they will stick to their own way of doing things. That means they chose the best solution to the problem they're trying to solve, not the easiest nor the chepest. They'll choose the solution that does work done the way they expect it to.

Palm's evidently playing around with more then one OS, and we'll eventually see which they'll choose.

[rlauzon]

I'm currently listening to the SyncToy portion of the podcast. It's exactly what QuickSync does but only on OS X. :)

Sounds like rsync for Linux. I currently use it on my Linux box to sync the internal hard drive of my LifeDrive. Works very nice.

[mauibro]

Remember to give me my props Jeff when Palmsource is shown to indeed berelevant to Palm devices (linux) as said. Cobalt is alive, perhaps as a shell on Linux, but it is alive.

Bottom line Jeff is that the idea that Palm ever intended to throw all its eggs in the Garnet basket never made sense. Thus being smart people, they only used this hacked Garnet to fill the time it took to release devices on a new much more powerful and flexible OS. Garnet is not "good enough' to take on PPC. Over time PPC would kill garnet without a doubt.

Now attacking the high end is possible. Palm 0S tablet? Remember I said it only made sense on the WOYP list? MS out of necessity must set a ceiling on how powerful their devices get since they are such tiny revenue, yet could cannibalize XP, and Longhorn, or whatever its real name is. You and I have always agreed on that.

Garnet was never going to get that done.

And do you recall when those two Palmsource execs (one was Mace) Did a series of Q&A on some forum just before the got canned?
the other exec, (a woman) plainly said that there was going to be a simple "feature phone" Linux Os and a more powerful Linux one based on Cobalt.

So I done think its "maybe" we will have devices on an OS other than Garnet in the near future. Its just a matter of how near.

[GadgetGuru]

First, a big thanks to Alan for keeping Jeff in check and sober throughout the podcast... no rant mode this time around...

Sync Toy is a great find, something that probably 90% or more of the Palm community had not known. I will try it in awhile. Thanks for pointing this piece of software.

The Tablet PC form factor will be a fierce competitive area. Nokia has first crack with the 770. If Nokia could add some PDA functionality to it (like waking up for alarms, etc), then it could take away a bit from Palms and other PDAs. The 770 is also a first in breed, so if it is successful, then Nokia (or Ciscokia, if the rumored merger push through) could come up with further device that would have the specs Alan and Jeff mentioned (80GB harddrive, WiMax, etc) and Nokia's heft could be a detterent to Palm's entry to that space. Wonder if you could eventually install 'Palm on Linux' or 'Whatever on Linux (Since Palmsource will lose that trademark in 4 years)' on a Maemo or Linux device, much like Styletap on Pocket PC devices.

Speaking of Styletap, wonder why Palmsource had not sued those guys, Sure, they might have reverse engineered the thing, but I still believe something should still infringe on Palmsource's IP. Maybe the internal turmoil at Palmsource is preventing that... but if SCO could sue IBM, etc on flimsy evidence, surely Palmsource could do the same...

[Alan G]

Tungsten T5 wrote:
How come we haven't hered anything about the T6 (XX) for months? I still tink it's fake.

Most of the important details have already leaked out, but I'd expect more to start showing up again in late September as Palm gets ready to release the Tungsten T7. Unlike the WM Treo, I do expect Palm to release this deivce to replace the T5. If you look around, you can already see signs that the T7 is coming. The T5 price has been lowered to $350 and accessories are already being discounted by electronics outlets like Staples. If Palm continues to follow tradition, expect the T7 to be announced in early October and become generally available in stores by late October of this year.

Alan G

[Alan G]

GadgetGuru wrote:
First, a big thanks to Alan for keeping Jeff in check and sober throughout the podcast... no rant mode this time around...

I was actually worried that we'd both start ranting! LOL!

if the rumored merger push through) could come up with further device that would have the specs Alan and Jeff mentioned (80GB harddrive, WiMax, etc) and Nokia's heft could be a detterent to Palm's entry to that space.

If Plam really does its homework, like they did with the Treo (and the Handspring folks are now in charge over at Palm) then I think they they can build a nice mini-tablet that uses the elegant Palm OS interface. Palm OS, in my opinion, really works because it's easy to learn, doesn't get in your face and allows you to get your work done. That is the real power of Palm's devices. The OS. (Draw the usual similarities to Apple and Mac OS X here.)

I was talking with Jeff after the podcast last night and I said that if Palm could duplicate what Apple was envisioning with the Newton, I'd buy a Palm mini-tablet on launch day.

Alan G

[Unegisered]

I thought Jeff said even PDA sized tablets would be squeezed out by smartphones on the one side and Vista mini-tablets on the other. Why would Palm enter a field that will disappear in two years time?

Is this now only coming up because it appears POS Treo's are not long for this world?

[Gekko]

I thought Jeff said even PDA sized tablets would be squeezed out by smartphones on the one side and Vista mini-tablets on the other. Why would Palm enter a field that will disappear in two years time?

Is this now only coming up because it appears POS Treo's are not long for this world?

yes - because the apologists need *something* to believe in.

[Papageoff]

Brighthand has a story about the WM Treo going into production in 1Q06. I really think this is a mistake for Palm. You really have to wonder how the meeting with microsoft went to discuss the licensing deal? Was palm the perverbial orphan asking for more food from the devil? The question we really have to ask now is... What's next? A windows mobile LifeDrive or T7? I personally can live without a PDA (if I had too), and I really don't care for windows mobile. So, it looks like my T5 will have to last me a long time.

http://www.brighthand.com/article/WinMo_Treo_in_Q1_2006?site=PPC

[Alan G]

If you read Ed's article, you will see that he used the DigiTimes and Register reports as sources. I think that everyone is getting caught up in the idea that Palm built a prototype device running WM. While a WM Treo under Todd Bradley would likely have become a reality, I don't see Ed Colligan going down that path.

Alan G

[strider_mt2k]

Hey guys! Cool podcast!
Great to hear Alan on there!

Gonna check out SyncToy for sure!

I've been using SyncBack to backup my MS, so this could be cool too.

On Hotsyncing:

It has always been my opinion that a TRULY mobile device should not need to be tied to a desktop for any reason.

I have much more access to handheld users now on my new job, PalmOS and otherwise, so I am opening up more and more to the thought of a WM Treo.
Like I've posted before, I would LOVE to try em side by side, apples to apples.

No need to cop the smug 'tude towards WiFI though, both BT and WiFi have their ups and downs, and different uses as well.
No doubt some thing else will blow THEM both away so keep things in perspective.

Your ideas about Palm's "other" biz seems on track, and I await the devices eagerly!

I am becoming more and more interested in tablets, and would ADORE a PalmOS version!

EDIT

By the way, come visit SOUTH Jersey some time.
I'll show you enough trees to satisfy. It's a little something called the NJ Pine Barrens, and more than one person has been lost in there!

Southern NJ is actually quite beautiful!

[Alan G]

strider_mt2k wrote:
I am becoming more and more interested in tablets, and would ADORE a PalmOS version!

Apple Newton-like device + Palm OS = One Cool Mini-Tablet

Alan G

[strider_mt2k]

Mini Tablet: 'eh? What do you mean? TH55 is a mini tablet?

Say it brother!

(But for some reason it "won't count" :rolleyes: )

I guess I already do adore one!

Cool!

[Jeff Kirvin]

I thought Jeff said even PDA sized tablets would be squeezed out by smartphones on the one side and Vista mini-tablets on the other. Why would Palm enter a field that will disappear in two years time?

Is this now only coming up because it appears POS Treo's are not long for this world?
So maybe I was wrong, Surur. These are just my opinions, you know.

[Unregsterd]

So maybe I was wrong. These are just my opinions, you know.

I hope you know you are very influential in the POS world. I often hear your opinions repeated word for word all over the place. If people hang onto your words, and you express yourself with great conviction (as you do) it argues for some rigor in coming to your views.

[Unregiterd]

A senior Palm executive says his company could benefit from building a mobile computing device that runs on the Windows operating system made by once-bitter rival Microsoft.

In an interview, Palm Chief Financial Officer Andrew Brown said that building a Treo that runs on the mobile version of Windows might help the company woo corporate customers who have been reticent to buy its Palm OS-based gadgets.


CIOs don't get fired for using Microsoft products," Brown said, though he did not say whether Palm has such a product in the works.

Palm's money man says there are benefits to offering a Windows Mobile-based Treo, but is stopping short of confirming the maker will do so.

Despite that shared heritage with PalmSource, Brown described Palm as neutral to the operating system its devices use--and the types of e-mail servers to which they connect.

"The fact is we are Switzerland, whether it be over the e-mail server or the OS," Brown told CNET News.com last week after a presentation to financial analysts at an RBC Capital Markets conference in San Francisco.

Brown's comments come just as enthusiast sites are buzzing with photos and videos purporting to be a next-generation Treo running Windows Mobile on a Verizon-branded device. The company has been studying other operating systems, including Windows Mobile, for some time.

Charles Golvin, an analyst with Forrester Research, said that if the photos of a Windows Treo product making the rounds are authentic, the product should be reasonably close to shipping to carriers and could be in consumers' hands by the end of this year.

http://news.com.com/Making+the+case+for+Windows+on+Palm+devices/2100-1047_3-5829076.html?part=rss&tag=5829076&subj=news

Is Colligan still going to stop this madness?

[Jeff Kirvin]

I hope you know you are very influential in the POS world. I often hear your opinions repeated word for word all over the place. If people hang onto your words, and you express yourself with great conviction (as you do) it argues for some rigor in coming to your views.
I do have some rigor in coming to my views. But keep in mind that those views are based on the best information available to me at the time. When new information becomes available, an intelligent person will adjust.

I refuse to stay "resolute" and stick by information and ideas that are clearly outdated and false. Anything I say is something I believe to be true, but only in the moment in which I say it. Tomorrow could be a different story. Depends on what I learn between now and then.

[JJ Quinlivan]

You mentioned a PDA Converter for free at Palmgear on your latest podcast. I'm having trouble finding this software. Can you give me a link?

Thanks

JJ

[Jeff Kirvin]

A senior Palm executive says his company could benefit from building a mobile computing device that runs on the Windows operating system made by once-bitter rival Microsoft.

In an interview, Palm Chief Financial Officer Andrew Brown said that building a Treo that runs on the mobile version of Windows might help the company woo corporate customers who have been reticent to buy its Palm OS-based gadgets.


CIOs don't get fired for using Microsoft products," Brown said, though he did not say whether Palm has such a product in the works.

Palm's money man says there are benefits to offering a Windows Mobile-based Treo, but is stopping short of confirming the maker will do so.

Despite that shared heritage with PalmSource, Brown described Palm as neutral to the operating system its devices use--and the types of e-mail servers to which they connect.

"The fact is we are Switzerland, whether it be over the e-mail server or the OS," Brown told CNET News.com last week after a presentation to financial analysts at an RBC Capital Markets conference in San Francisco.

Brown's comments come just as enthusiast sites are buzzing with photos and videos purporting to be a next-generation Treo running Windows Mobile on a Verizon-branded device. The company has been studying other operating systems, including Windows Mobile, for some time.

Charles Golvin, an analyst with Forrester Research, said that if the photos of a Windows Treo product making the rounds are authentic, the product should be reasonably close to shipping to carriers and could be in consumers' hands by the end of this year.

http://news.com.com/Making+the+case+for+Windows+on+Palm+devices/2100-1047_3-5829076.html?part=rss&tag=5829076&subj=news

Is Colligan still going to stop this madness?

This is still all speculation based on photos that may or may not be an actively-developed product.

I believe a Windows Mobile Treo would help Palm in the short run and kill them in the long run, so Brown's comments don't surprise me. He's looking at the next few quarters. Colligan should realize the long term ramifications.

I don't believe Palm will release a WM Treo for sale.

[quasar]

Good show. I'm glad that you two got together to do a podcast, though I wish Alan had had a more active part in it.

The part about POS Linux and Cobalt supportig redolutions of up to 32,000x32,000 pixels (gigapixel) brings some interesting new ideas to mind about how the Palm OS could be used, though it wouldn't be much of a 'palm' os anymore. The average computer user has their resolution set on 1024x768 pixels. That means that a display of gigapixel resolution would be roughly 32 monitors wide by 40 monitors tall, in order to attain that resolution without sacrificing pixel density. It could be much much larger depending on how far away it would be viewed from, but it's interesting to think of what has a screen that large. One comes to mind: IMAX. Or how about athletic stadium screens. Either of these could run Palm OS Linux in the future. But almost nobody has a screen that large. The thing is that POSL supports resolutions up to a gigapixel. You could have a screen anywhere in there. POSL could be put into use in your next laptop using an XVGA display. How about the back seat of an airplane? While I don't agree with the ubiquitos potential for the Palm OS the guy at PalmLoyal's podcast has (it's only different from other embedded OSs when the user's there for a fair amount of time. The user doesn't care what OS the vending machine runs, and the manufactures already have that worked out) but I think there are many potential uses. How about a POSL desktop computer? Sync your mobile POSL device with it, and they're both identical, but you get the bigger screen and keyboard that desktops have over handhelds. Your refreshing my memory about the enlarged number of supported resolutions in POSL over traditional PDAs brings to mind a whole lot of possabilities for the Palm OS that could save it's tail from the extinction that we know could happen. Could, not will. It's far from dead, but Microsoft is working hard on that.

Jeff, you've mentioned that in the future, we'll be using windows or linux tablets ( I use Linux and love it, so I wouldn't mind) in place of what we now use PDAs for. Do you think the Palm OS could be embedded version of Linux used in them? Palm OS Linux seems to me like it would simply be linux on a POS desktop environment with a compatability layer. I see no reason why Linux apps couldn't be compiled on POSL, or a package manager used (synaptic on the Palm, anyone?) That's one of the things that intrugues me about the Zaurus: I could compile all of my usual desktop apps on it instead of using limited PDA apps. Do you think POSL will one of the major Linux mini-tablets in the future?

[mauibro]

I have much more access to handheld users now on my new job, PalmOS and otherwise, so I am opening up more and more to the thought of a WM Treo.
Like I've posted before, I would LOVE to try em side by side, apples to apples.



The reason that a win mobile Treo seems to be a bad move, "concession to Windows" is we keep thinking Garnet.
What if the new Palm OS was Clearly better than Win Mobile?

What if Palm Execs in interviews describe why a win Mobile Treo was devised saying that know a certain segment insists on Win Mobile. The Treo is the best win mobile phone option there is.

However this new ground breaking Palm OS continues to be the primary focus for Palm devices since it is obviously better in so many key ways.

On the website you have a "which Treo is right For you" comparison page heavily favoring the Palm OS device. Since the comparison is of two devices that Palm sells it would be taken far more seriously than similar pages that compare "us versus them."

And get this People, it is big.
It relates to what you said Stryder.
End users will compare their experience with the same exact device using the different OSs.
IF guys like Mossberg hype the new Palm Os Treo over the Win Mobile one, if time and again reviews favor the Palm device, it will not take. the hit people think it will.
Loads of both Treos get sold, it is the smart phone of choice regardless of OS.
Palm OS becomes the executive choice. The Win Mobile for those who have no choice. Head to head same hardware, the new Palm Os is just better.

As Competing hardware makers get the device right, and all those "palm cannot compete in Win Mobile" issues begin to arise, they discontinue the win mobile version.

Spin? We made a win mobile device and that sorry OS just isnt right for these devices.

the end result is both the short term windfall everyone knows a win Treo would have, and an end result that has long term benefits for Palm too.

This works only if the new Os is That good, and they carry out the right strategy.

[Vampire Lestat]

Palm has signed a 4 yr contract so that PalmSource develops Palm OS over Linux. I do not see any evidence that Palm itself will develop Palm OS; that is why I reject claims that PalmSource is irrelevant. Palm will have its staff of Palm Linux programmers so that they can embelish the OS and add a few more device specific features.

Regarding the 670, I don't know what Ed Colligan is thinking. There are too many unknowns. My advice is to stay the course with the Palm brand, PalmOS over Linux, the Zire, Tungsten, Treo and Mobile Manager lines. If WM grows faster because they are penetrating new markets faster, then so be it. Palm should focus on maintaining and progressively increasing their sales numbers, remaining profitable. My point here is that WM can grow faster but Palm can also prosper even if its growth is slower; growth is growth. Palm OS has critical masse and if they can keep their sales steady, there is no reason whatsoever to give up.

Linux and the open source world will continue to grow relentlessly. I estimate that even the Microsoft juggernaut is unable to stop it. Palm is about to ally with that unstopable movement. Palm OS will be lower in cost for licensees compared to WM, and that will make it very attractive.

One of my worries right now is that everything I read about Palm Linux is for cell phones. Then again, Palm Source says that all properly coded 68K, OS 5 and OS 6 programs will run on Palm Linux; so doesn't that in itself prove that ANY release of Palm Linux by PalmSource has to be useable on a handheld? Nonetheless, the fact that Palm Source and Palm have never once mentioned the word "handheld" and "Linux" in the same sentence is worrying. I would really appreciate it if they would clarify their plans for PoL on handhelds. I vaguely remember a communiqué about the 1rst Linux out next year will be for a feature phone and then it will be followed up by a smartphone Linux version (will that version work on handhelds?).

[Joel]

Actually, Reggie's got the internet tablet covered :) -- in whatever brand, OS, or form.

Check out my sig for the link.

[Vampire Lestat]

Jeff or Alan,

Where is the job offerings on Palm's site? I can't find them.

[soccrnj80]

I think we can all see that there WILL be a windows mobile treo.... Jeff as much as I don't want it, or expected this to happen it is.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I think we can all see that there WILL be a windows mobile treo.... Jeff as much as I don't want it, or expected this to happen it is.
Why? Any reason to believe that this is a real product and not just a prototype they were playing around with?

[twrock]

I do have some rigor in coming to my views. But keep in mind that those views are based on the best information available to me at the time. When new information becomes available, an intelligent person will adjust.

I refuse to stay "resolute" and stick by information and ideas that are clearly outdated and false. Anything I say is something I believe to be true, but only in the moment in which I say it. Tomorrow could be a different story. Depends on what I learn between now and then.

The problem with "editorialists" (speaking broadly, not just about Jeff) is that they need to sound like they know what they are talking about. The next "problem" is that they eventually need to know what they are talking about, otherwise they are just babbling idiots.

A little while back I listened to a few of your then recent podcasts. I concluded that you were quite full of yourself and reaching conclusions the information didn't support. Maybe it was just you trying out a new persona, trying to be a little over-the-top, trying to create buzz. I'm not sure about why, but I really thought you were off the deep end. These latest podcasts haven't come across that way (at least to me). I think maybe because you've seemed to back off on the rants against something or someone. Maybe it's all just my very flawed perception.

In any case, if an editorialist can state his opinion without making every other opinion sound stupid/ignorant, then there is a lot less backlash when he's wrong.

[Vampire Lestat]

The reason is that a few days before the Treo 670 pics and videos appeared, there was a rumour going around that Palm had just sent out a bunch of test devices to developers; the OS was unknown at the time.

[soccrnj80]

I want to believe that this is a prototype or beta device that will never see the light of day, but it's happening whether we like it or not. We will not keep food on the tables of palm's employees, (we meaning the loyal, palm users). Palm sees Microsoft as the big cash cow it can now "use". I think they know it will make them more money, period. Palmsource dropped the ball, palmsource I can say is the iceberg in our Titanic if I get philisophical. Palm right now wants to stay alive, and selling Windows Mobile Treos will give them some air for a while, look at the specs of the Palm Treo 700, I think it looks much better compared to the Windows Mobile Treo, and so will us palm loyalists. I have no shame is saying I am a loyalist, to me it is still the superior OS, right now, right now.. They will sell both devices. I guess as much as I don't like it, I can't blame them, They need to stay alive, and this is kinda their only option for the moment. They need to stay alive. I will get a Treo 700 running Palm, to me it is still better than their Windows Mobile offering, heck my Treo 650 is better. If history is any reminder of things look at Apple, they waited too long, and then MS swooped in with it's licensing, it's cheaper to do than being a hardware maker and os maker as Apple is. Palmsource sealed the fate of palm, for now.. I am not going to the "dark side" been there, done that, don't like it. I am a Mac person, and a Palm person. The elegance is in their simplicity, but thats not what sells in the short term, when you have consumers comparing specs, it's easier for Palm to stay alive by doing this, this is THE only reason they are doing this, they see $$$. As much as I don't want it to happen I see it is, and I still see Palm OS as being the superior OS for a Treo. This is gonna be another "cloning", we saw it happen before. Cloning is where Microsoft shines, it does not care about hardware, user experience (we still get blue screens), just getting the license.. There's another profession that seems so simliar, rhymes with snooker?? Lol

[Vampire Lestat]

twrock, you suck.

I like you Jeff.

[Unrgitered]

I like you Jeff.

Anyone else just notice that 'come-hither' look in Vampire Lestat's avatar?

[jjesusfreak01]

I do have some rigor in coming to my views. But keep in mind that those views are based on the best information available to me at the time. When new information becomes available, an intelligent person will adjust.Like WMDs in IRAQ; best info at the time. It can change. If it does, dont hold it against Jeff, he's too funny to not have around.

[AdamaDBrown]

Why? Any reason to believe that this is a real product and not just a prototype they were playing around with?

Well, it's been updated with WM5, which had to happen very recently. Palm's CFO said that a Windows Treo would be good for Palm, since it would sell to companies that are standardized on MS based products. A stock analyst has stated that the Windows Treo is real, and will be shipping to carriers soon, with customer availability by the end of the year. And a leaked Syware press release details their software's compatibility with the new Windows Mobile Treo. Did I miss anything?

[Vampire Lestat]

Breaking news

Published: August 11, 2005, 12:42 PM PDT
http://news.com.com/Making+the+case+for+Windows+on+Palm+devices/2100-1047_3-5829076.html

A senior Palm executive says his company could benefit from building a mobile computing device that runs on the Windows operating system made by once-bitter rival Microsoft.

In an interview, Palm Chief Financial Officer Andrew Brown said that building a Treo that runs on the mobile version of Windows might help the company woo corporate customers who have been reticent to buy its Palm OS-based gadgets.

[Vampire Lestat]

The Treo 650 is real, I am 100% convinced as per the article above. Mr. Brown didn't come out now with that comment for nothing.

OK guys, time for Plan B.

Let's learn to live with the 670. Let's ignore it and simply focus on making Palm programs better and keep buying Palm OS based handhelds.

[soccrnj80]

I just posted my "thoughts" on this over at palmaddict. I think we are going to hear this term quite a bit now from Palm.

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2005/08/12/index.html

Personal thoughts only...

[twrock]

twrock, you suck.

Why do you think so, VL? Is it because I can say what I think, point out errors when I see them, not hold to the party line when the line is wrong? Is it because I can be critical of someone you like and that is unacceptable to you?

Jeff can do what he wants with my "constructive criticism". If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, then it wasn't his shoe.

I don't know you, VL. I don't know Jeff. I can only base my feelings about either of you on how you portray yourselves online. If someone chooses to "publish" their opinions in editorial or speak them in podcasts, they set themselves up to be someone with more knowledge and understanding and discernment than the "average Joe". And when they rise, they rise further; and when they fall, they hit harder.

Here's the really scary part. As much as I find people like TVOR over at PIC to be rude, obnoxious, full of ego, and worthy of banning, I find the inability of "idol worshippers" to see obvious fault in their "idols" to be much more difficult to stomach.

So, please, if you have some constructive criticism for me, bring it on. But if not, "you suck" just doesn't cut it.

[soccrnj80]

My choice is PALM, the OS!!

[Jeff Kirvin]

I haven't seen the Syware thing, so I can't speak to that.

The CFO said exactly what I'd expect: his focus is on the next few quarters, where Windows Mobile would make Palm a lot of money. It's only later, two or three years out, that Windows Mobile would kill Palm. Dell has too much of an advantage in component cost due to their economies of scale. Palm simply can't compete with them on equal footing. To attempt to do so would inevitably bleed Palm dry.

The analyst, if I read the artIcle correctly, was speculating on the Engadget pictures. He had no additional or independent knowledge of such a device. His assertion that it could be in customers' hands by the end of the year was based on the polished look of the device, that it wasn't as rough as most prototypes.

I'm actually a bit disturbed at how readily "establishment" media is taking this web rumor from someone going by the psuedonym "roc a fella" and assuming it's true. What happened to reliable sources?

[Vampire Lestat]

twrock,

Your comments served no constructive purpose. Even IF your opinion of Jeff was true, saying it publically only shows it to be a personal attack on someone who entertains us for free every week. Cut him some slack.

[Gekko]

I'm actually a bit disturbed at how readily "establishment" media is taking this web rumor from someone going by the psuedonym "roc a fella" and assuming it's true. What happened to reliable sources?

"The American press is all about lies! All they tell is lies, lies and more lies!"

http://tinyurl.com/99r2

[soccrnj80]

choices, choices, choices. I guess they're good to have...

[AdamaDBrown]

The Treo 650 is real

One would certainly hope so! :D

[Vampire Lestat]

Oops! LOL

Treo 670

[JAmerican]

I'll be looking forward to a Clamshell Treo. LMAO!!

BT was always better than WiFi. I love Bluetooth. That's why I didn't like the TH55. Also because of no keyboard.

BTW, was on the subway and saw a lady playing Solitare on a Palm Vx. LMAO!!!

JAmerican

[soccrnj80]

We are going to be hearing that seven letter word alot now.

[JAmerican]

Testing the water, testing the water. How about Palm test the water with a Clamshell device. OMG!!

JAmerican

[Vampire Lestat]

A friend just told me that if this Treo 670 is launched with WM, the first thing consumers will think is that Palm is admitting that "their" OS is inferior. And he is right.

Developers are not going to take this positively either.

I am not happy at all with these turn of events. BIG mistake by Palm in my opinion. They've made blunders before but this will be the biggest.

It has all the appearances of a panicked desperate decision.

They will try to mask it it with nice mumbo jumbo language that "consumers now have more choice", "carriers were demanding this", "we are OS agnostic", bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

At the end of the day... you simply don't trust your product enough to assure your future prosperity. Rule #1 in economics... ENSURE CONFIDENCE IN THE ECONOMY.

[JAmerican]

Yes a Mini Tablet/Clamshell device. I said that a Linux+Palm device might come out sooner because it would be ubserd for a company to stop development of their OS completely to develop a different OS. I feel they are developing the Linux+PalmOS now and that it will come out before expected. If a device comes out without anyone knowing and more people will be out to buy it without thinking out it, unlike many people were for the LifeDrive due to they knew about it too early and gave people time to think about it.

JAmerican

[twrock]

Your comments served no constructive purpose. Even IF your opinion of Jeff was true, saying it publically only shows it to be a personal attack on someone who entertains us for free every week. Cut him some slack.

Thank you for writing something of substance.

If you believe there was no constructive purpose, then I suggest you read it again. If you still don't believe there was any constructive purpose, then we simply disagree.

I did not intend it as a personal attack; you believe I did. That is simply a disagreement, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I truly believe I have "cut him some slack". If you were aware of some of what I have done over at PIC to confront the personal attacks against Jeff, you might think differently. But then again, you might not. In that case, we simply disagree.

[Unrgistred]

So its accepted to be real, and everybody accept Jeff thinks it will be released in 4-6 months. What if WM5 is a better OS and better platform than Garnet?

1) They will both have persistent storage
2) They will both have one-handed navigation
3) They will have the same formfactor

Differences
1) the 670 will have "push email, push appointments, push calender and push tasks". The Treo 650/700 wont.
2) The Treo 670 will take any SD WIFI card. The Treo 700 wont (but who knows, may have WIFI built-in)
3) The Treo 670 will have directX 8 built-in, meaning some great games will be coming. I understand MS is planning to port Madden and Gotham Racing. The POS Treo will continue to have the anemic POS game library.
4) The Treo will have the crashtastic Blazer, while the WM Treo will have the stable PIE, which handles web pages better also. Netfront and Opera will also be available.
5) Palm will finally have a native PDF reader!
6) Treo owners will finally be able to navigate using a bluetooth GPS and talk on the bluetooth headset at the same time.

The fact is, when compared side by side, the Treo 670 will be better than the Treo 650, and probably better than any Garnet Treo that may follow. Many PALM users will defect to WM, to solve niggling problems that just don't exist on a WM device.

I would be interested on seeing this list from the other perspective, why a POS Treo will be clearly better to a new buyer.

[Vampire Lestat]

Read my lips: MONOPOLY

If Microsoft has free reign, consumers lose. There are no exceptions to this very basic economic fact.

Palm OS Cobalt was designed the ground up with an impressive armada of new powerful features (see http://www.palmsource.com/palmos/cobalt.html). It is outrageous and a sin that this wonderful OS has not hit the market yet.

It will make it to market soon with Palm Linux, which is simply OS 6 running on top of a Linux kernel, but it is sad to see Palm Inc. about to sell the Treo 670 and undermine its own interests by snuffing Cobalt even more.

My intuition tells me that this move to WM is going to kill Palm OS and make Palm much smaller, for real this time (unlike all the other past hyped up claims of Palm's imminent demize). It is a horse of Troy. Just watch.

[mauibro]

Look at post 50.
It shows how a strategy can be pulled off that can have a Win Mobile Treo bring in tremendous short term profit without killing Palm. While I only speculated as to a possible scenario, bottom line is that the win mob Palm must be Spun as the lesser device to a new powerful Palm OS device.
Actually make the Win Mobile Cheaper than the one featuring the breakthrough new Palm Os.
Direct comparisons by Palm, reviewers, and users show than Palm OS model to be better. Make quick cash on MS centric Enterprise and others already sold on PPC, and at the same time establish the superiority of the new OS.

At the some time bring out new and exciting devices on the handheld front featuring this new exciting OS.
Once the new OS is entrenched dump win mob altogether or keep it as "lesser" device.

Everybody is thinking in terms of Garnet here.
Yes in that case it Kills Palm.
But if is an altogether superior os having a win Mobile Treo will only demonstrate how much better the now OS is I while stealing Win mobile profits From Dell and HP and further establishing the Treo as than name in smart phones.

Now everybody is just ignoring my posts. Can I got some Feedback?
Am I crazy?

[Vampire Lestat]

First pic of Treo 700 with possibly Palm OS 6.

http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2628

[twrock]

Look at post 50. ...
Direct comparisons by Palm, reviewers, and users show than Palm OS model to be better. Make quick cash on MS centric Enterprise and others already sold on PPC, and at the same time establish the superiority of the new OS. ...

(Ok, I'll take a stab at it.)

This would be fantastic! I see it as having only one problem: it is too fantastic (notice how "fantastic" and "fantasy" have the same root). There are so many "what if's" that I can't even start to believe it will happen that way. That doesn't mean it won't, just that I think the odds of it happening that way are very small.

History is against you as well. This "game" (or some form of it) has been played out before. And most often, M$ wins. I would love to see Palm pull something like this off though.

I'm still hoping that Palm's "third device" is not the LifeDrive, and we will all be "floored" by its revelation. Fantasy on my part? You decide.

[smoothjordan]

Jeff, I was reading on PalmSource.com and came across something that they say that negates what you say

The future

Many people assume that the market for mobile data will develop like the market for PCs, that everyone will converge on a single one-size-fits-all design. But in reality the opposite is happening—as the market grows, devices are becoming more and more diverse. The reality is that the market for mobile data is more like the market for cars than PCs. Just as different people need and choose very different vehicles, different people and different companies will choose very different data devices, and customize them with different software programs. The Palm OS platform offers the best selection of hardware and software, while preserving the ease of use that launched the mobile data market in the first place.
Just thought it was odd how they "countered" your argument.

I don't think this third device is the mobile managers, at the point it is right now. It's just not innovative enough, like Jeff said, it's basically a T|5, Ipod Mini, and Wifi Card all in one. Where's the innovation?

[AdamaDBrown]

The CFO said exactly what I'd expect: his focus is on the next few quarters, where Windows Mobile would make Palm a lot of money. It's only later, two or three years out, that Windows Mobile would kill Palm. Dell has too much of an advantage in component cost due to their economies of scale. Palm simply can't compete with them on equal footing. To attempt to do so would inevitably bleed Palm dry.

I don't know about Dell's interest in the smartphone business. They may--and I emphasize may--be looking to take on RIM on the issue of push email and enterprise data/messaging devices, but smartphones don't seem to mesh well with their business model. Not to mention Dell's greatest weakness, and one of the only reasons HP is still in the number two spot: Dell has no retail presence.

The analyst, if I read the artIcle correctly, was speculating on the Engadget pictures. He had no additional or independent knowledge of such a device. His assertion that it could be in customers' hands by the end of the year was based on the polished look of the device, that it wasn't as rough as most prototypes.

Maybe not. Stock analysts are usually better informed even than the news sites. At the Consumer Electronics Show in January, we were standing in a taxi line talking about the Samsung i730 we'd checked out the previous night, and trying to figure out whether it would be on Sprint or Verizon--we thought Sprint. The analyst who was one place behind us in the line spoke up and told us it would be released on Verizon. Low and behold, it was.

I'm actually a bit disturbed at how readily "establishment" media is taking this web rumor from someone going by the psuedonym "roc a fella" and assuming it's true. What happened to reliable sources?

The same thing was said back when we were talking about the "Treo 610," with Bluetooth and a hi-res screen, that turned out to be the 650. (Shrug.) In any event, the guy has a pretty long history of being right about upcoming releases, plus there are photos.


4) The Treo will have the crashtastic Blazer, while the WM Treo will have the stable PIE, which handles web pages better also. Netfront and Opera will also be available.


While I agree that in general, PIE sucks less that Blazer, the use of the word "better" really isn't appropriate. On a 240 x 240 screen, PIE will be about as useful as a plastic steak knife.

As for Opera, if you know a way to get the WM Smartphone version running on a PocketPC, please share.

[Unrgisteed]

I'm surprised you do not know this, but its now common knowledge that MS smartphone apps now run on WM 5 PDA devices. In fact, to address your second concern about screen size, the smartphone apps are generally designed to work well on a 176 x 220 size screen, so they are actually a good fit for a WM Treo. Also of course smartphone apps are designed fro the start to be used stylus free, so again they would be already optimized for a WM 5 handfree navigation device.

[jjesusfreak01]

So its accepted to be real, and everybody accept Jeff thinks it will be released in 4-6 months. What if WM5 is a better OS and better platform than Garnet?

1) They will both have persistent storage
2) They will both have one-handed navigation
3) They will have the same formfactor

Differences
1) the 670 will have "push email, push appointments, push calender and push tasks". The Treo 650/700 wont.
2) The Treo 670 will take any SD WIFI card. The Treo 700 wont (but who knows, may have WIFI built-in)
3) The Treo 670 will have directX 8 built-in, meaning some great games will be coming. I understand MS is planning to port Madden and Gotham Racing. The POS Treo will continue to have the anemic POS game library.
4) The Treo will have the crashtastic Blazer, while the WM Treo will have the stable PIE, which handles web pages better also. Netfront and Opera will also be available.
5) Palm will finally have a native PDF reader!
6) Treo owners will finally be able to navigate using a bluetooth GPS and talk on the bluetooth headset at the same time.

The fact is, when compared side by side, the Treo 670 will be better than the Treo 650, and probably better than any Garnet Treo that may follow. Many PALM users will defect to WM, to solve niggling problems that just don't exist on a WM device.

I would be interested on seeing this list from the other perspective, why a POS Treo will be clearly better to a new buyer.
2)Though possible, carriers have adding WiFi into a device as one of their 7 deadly sins. They want people to only use their network, especially if it is EVDO.
3)Even if it has DX8, it doesnt mean the hardware can support those games.
4)Palms current browser is Netfront, enough said.
5)Well, we have PicselViewer, but palm is too stupid to license it.
6)Well thats just plain cool, I want one of them Treos.

Im not making this list "from the other perspective", just listing a few comments and pointing out some flaws in the data.

[JAmerican]

This is how it should be. PDA should have WiFi and Smartphones should have EDGE/EVDO. Bluetooth is a must for both devices for faster data transfer and hands-free capabilities for smartphones. WiFi who??? What are you talking about. PDAs won't have EVDO/EDGE, smartphones will. That means WiFi is still gonna be around for PDAs. It won't just disappear from the mobile world.

As for the Treo 700, if thats the new Treo, I'm gonna keep my UX and get a HTC Universal later. Don't care how bad you guys think Windows Mobile is. I've tried proprietary OSes that have better features than Palm like MULTITASKING. Like anything, one thing is usually better than the other in something and vica versa. Now the thing that I don't see here is how Palm can do more than Windows Mobile. I know Palm can't stream video...yet but everything a Palm can do, a Windows Mobile device can do.

The stengths comparison between my Sidekick is that it could multitask, while my CLIE can play video/audio. Now when it comes to WM, it can do what my Sidekick and Palm can do + Stream Video. Although I have yet to fully test a Windows Mobile device with a keyboard, I find these features pretty cool though and using a third-party Task Manager is like using a Third-party Uninstaller for Palm in my opinion. It justs makes it easier to organize your device. I stay neutral to how well a Windows Mobile 5.0 device can operate because guess what, one has not been released. As for Windows Smartphones, Windows has two different OSes for Smartphones. The Smartphone OS then the Windows Mobile Phone Edition OS. The Smartphone OS in my opinion is crap because of the no touchscreen but the Phone Edition OS is cool because it is an extention of the actual Windows Mobile OS. Lets not forget about this Phone Edition OS or combine it with the Smartphone OS because they are two DIFFERENT OSes. I feel that my venture into the Windows Mobile field in the future should be a challenging but fun one as I learn to build up applications that match my UX's. But that's later in the future anyway.

JAmerican

[intellidryad]

...
Differences
1) the 670 will have "push email, push appointments, push calender and push tasks". The Treo 650/700 wont.
2) The Treo 670 will take any SD WIFI card. The Treo 700 wont (but who knows, may have WIFI built-in)
3) The Treo 670 will have directX 8 built-in, meaning some great games will be coming. I understand MS is planning to port Madden and Gotham Racing. The POS Treo will continue to have the anemic POS game library.
4) The Treo will have the crashtastic Blazer, while the WM Treo will have the stable PIE, which handles web pages better also. Netfront and Opera will also be available.
5) Palm will finally have a native PDF reader!
6) Treo owners will finally be able to navigate using a bluetooth GPS and talk on the bluetooth headset at the same time.

The fact is, when compared side by side, the Treo 670 will be better than the Treo 650, and probably better than any Garnet Treo that may follow. Many PALM users will defect to WM, to solve niggling problems that just don't exist on a WM device.

I would be interested on seeing this list from the other perspective, why a POS Treo will be clearly better to a new buyer.

1)Doesn't the "Good tech" software package do that?
2)No body's sure with this one, but if a Treo does have WIFI built, it would've been really cool
3)Who cares? Most people get treos for business, not for gaming. People who cares about gaming would get a PSP or NDS or something from Dell. As for me, I prefer simple games that could be done in a minute or two. That means that it'll be so simple that it would run smoothly on both Palms and PPCs
4)I'm not familler with Blazer, I've only had less then 2 minutes of experience with it.(Yeah, didn't like it) However, I'm pretty sure that pocketIE is slow and does bad rendering (heard that it's based on IE3??). Also, a friend told me that IE is very unstable on a Acer PPC. IMHO, Netfront rocks on either platform, but the best version of Netfront runs on Linux (on Sharp's Zaurus).
5) Yeah. Thanks to Adobe. (Maybe that contract with sony prevented Picsel to license it to palm?)
6) Never used bluetooth, but would hate to have a headset that needs batteries.

Yeah, PPC has a bag of functions that you like, why do you try a Zaurus(much more powerful)?

Enough said, sorry for the ranting it you don't like it.

[Uregisered]

None of the things on the list may be relevant to you, but a different one of them might be relevant to a different person. Each person has a different set of requirements. BTW, did you know the EVDO network is fast enough to make Skype phone calls. So if you have flatrate EVDO you could basically make free or very cheap overseas phone calls using your mobile phone. I'm sure a businessman or two may be interested in that feature, especially if they are part of a small company.

I wasn't asking for a refutation of my list, but an alternate list of the benefits of a POS Treo. Otherwise, in the phone shop, it will be my list vs "Its a Palm OS device"

[mauibro]

None of the things on the list may be relevant to you, but a different one of them might be relevant to a different person. Each person has a different set of requirements. BTW, did you know the EVDO network is fast enough to make Skype phone calls. So if you have flatrate EVDO you could basically make free or very cheap overseas phone calls using your mobile phone. I'm sure a businessman or two may be interested in that feature, especially if they are part of a small company.

I wasn't asking for a refutation of my list, but an alternate list of the benefits of a POS Treo. Otherwise, in the phone shop, it will be my list vs "Its a Palm OS device"

You assume a Garnet Treo.
I still contend that during the. same timeframe of a windows Treo there will be a new POS released on a New Treo.
The very same source for the win mobile Version implied as much telling us that the other Treo pictured is a different OS.
In which case comparisons of the current "Garnet" Treo is irreverent.

[Unreisterd]

How would any of the things I mentioned change with Garnet? Jeff always says to talk about benefits, not features. Garnet wont suddenly cause a Skype client to appear, or Calligrapher, or a simple to understand real file system. It also wont add default 'normal' multi-tasking etc.

Cobalt wont change much really, and has in a away already missed the boat.

So, why should a consumer buy a Cobalt Treo vs a WM5 Treo?

[Unegisteed]

For the above message, Garnet=Cobalt

How would any of the things I mentioned change with Cobalt? Jeff always says to talk about benefits, not features. Cobalt wont suddenly cause a Skype client to appear, or Calligrapher, or a simple to understand real file system. It also wont add default 'normal' multi-tasking etc.

Cobalt wont change much really, and has in a away already missed the boat.

So, why should a consumer buy a Cobalt Treo vs a WM5 Treo?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Actually, Cobalt would make a Skype client appear.

[soccrnj80]

Oh by the way great podcast Jeff. I just subscribed to techtalk as well. Do you still think there isn't gonna be a Windows Mobile? You and Alan had great points to why it could be lab device never to see the light of day, but after I wrote my piece on palm addict, and seeing cnet's news, I am thinking we will see it. I think palm is really gonna play up giving it's customers "choices", palmsource really dropped the ball in my opinion. I listened to your podcast a day late, and I do believe that Palm is probably working with palmsource on pos linux, but I think they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket and get burned, therefore a Windows Mobile Treo will happen. Whats your take on it now? Any change? Again great podcast.

[mauibro]

For the above message, Garnet=Cobalt
How long has Cobalt been out?
Do we know what Palm will term "cobalt" at this point?
It seems there is something they didnt like about what Palmsource gave them.
We know they have more "software" engineers than hardware ones despite being a hardware company.
Linux is now in the picture too. Apparently "Palm" (not just Palmsource) is doing work on Linux according to the Podcast..

I contend we may have no idea what Palm has done with Cobalt at this point, and what they are working on for the near future.
There is something we just dont know, happening behind the scenes.
I tell you the wont release a win mob device without great confidence in the future of POS.

Think about it. We lay people know Palm cannot beat Dell, and HP in Win Mob over the long term. We know that there only real Future is with POS. We know the potential message a win mob Palm device sends.

You think they done know all the above?
What you all are assuming they are doing is so obviously stupid that the janitor scrubbing toilets at Palm would know better.

The one thing that we don't know that they do know is Palms strategy in releasing a win mob Treo.
We also have no idea how the new Palm Os compares to Win Mob.
We have a tiny price of the puzzle an think we have a full picture, they are doomed.

I tell you people, they would never release a wm device with anything like Garnet as the only alternative.

I expect a huge surprise when we see the new POS.

Interestingly Jeff you have yet to comment on my thoughts.
My guess is that you might think there may be something to it.

[twrock]

I tell you the wont release a win mob device without great confidence in the future of POS.
Wow, that surely isn't the way it is looking. My guess is that Palm is thinking they can make a profit selling WM devices as well as PalmOS devices. I don't think your "conspiracy theories" about how Palm is going to prove PalmOS is superior to WinMob have any support from the current evidence.

Think about it. We lay people know Palm cannot beat Dell, and HP in Win Mob over the long term. We know that there only real Future is with POS. We know the potential message a win mob Palm device sends.

You think they done know all the above?
What you all are assuming they are doing is so obviously stupid that the janitor scrubbing toilets at Palm would know better.
So if they go ahead and do it anyway, will you still be calling them stupid? Will you become frustrated with Palm the way many of us have and start to vent that frustration on the Palm forums? Or will you try to invent some alternate reality as to why all of a sudden this was a good idea afterall? Will you be intellectually honest, or will you play games?

The one thing that we don't know that they do know is Palms strategy in releasing a win mob Treo.
We also have no idea how the new Palm Os compares to Win Mob.
We have a tiny price of the puzzle an think we have a full picture, they are doomed.

I tell you people, they would never release a wm device with anything like Garnet as the only alternative.
(See the above also.) I do hope that the next Palm offering has Cobalt. I don't agree that Palm can continue to use Garnet for a relatively long time to come (relative the the speed at which tech moves) and expect not to continue to lose marketshare and eventually start to impact their profitability. So if Cobalt simply is not a realistic option for them, then that only leaves WinMob (yes there are some other possibilities, but I'm simplifying).

I expect a huge surprise when we see the new POS.

Interestingly Jeff you have yet to comment on my thoughts.
My guess is that you might think there may be something to it.
I think I would find Jeff's reply to you to be interesting as well.

[mauibro]

So if they go ahead and do it anyway, will you still be calling them stupid? Will you become frustrated with Palm the way many of us have and start to vent that frustration on the Palm forums? Or will you try to invent some alternate reality as to why all of a sudden this was a good idea afterall? Will you be intellectually honest, or will you play games?

But I already Believe they will release a WM Treo.
However I dont believe that they will do so without releasing a much imposed POS which will be their primary focus in all high end devices.
I don't imagine Garnet to be any kind of match for win mob 5 and they will die if they go.

If then are so stupid to release a wm Treo, and remain with Garnet For POS I wont vent here.
I will buy a Dell without a second thought.

My "upgrade cycle" comes next spring.
I know that I shall never buy another Garnet device.
But I believe I'll own a shiny new Palm come spring.

[AdamaDBrown]

I'm surprised you do not know this, but its now common knowledge that MS smartphone apps now run on WM 5 PDA devices. In fact, to address your second concern about screen size, the smartphone apps are generally designed to work well on a 176 x 220 size screen, so they are actually a good fit for a WM Treo. Also of course smartphone apps are designed fro the start to be used stylus free, so again they would be already optimized for a WM 5 handfree navigation device.

I was aware that this was rumored prior to the launch of WM 5, but I didn't realize that it had actually panned out. There were a lot of rumors about the two OS versions being completely merged, and this didn't happen, so I thought that the references I saw to application compatibility were mistaken. My bad I guess, but very cool.


4)I'm not familler with Blazer, I've only had less then 2 minutes of experience with it.(Yeah, didn't like it) However, I'm pretty sure that pocketIE is slow and does bad rendering (heard that it's based on IE3??). Also, a friend told me that IE is very unstable on a Acer PPC. IMHO, Netfront rocks on either platform, but the best version of Netfront runs on Linux (on Sharp's Zaurus).


I can't speak to Acer PPCs, having never used one, but I haven't had instability problems with PIE on any of the machines I've used. The problem is that it's lost a lot of functionality, but it's still not fast or lean. It's not really based on IE3, but it is severely stripped down. Out of the box you get no multiple windows, no Flash, no Java, minimal Javascript, no page saving, minimal fit-to-screen options... you get the idea.

Most of these things can be added via third-party software, but you just can't fix the HTML rendering engine. It's just slow. The processor speed doesn't even seem to matter much--you can have a 624 MHz processor idling under the hood, and it still takes 2-3 seconds just to render a moderately complex page.

[Alan G]

Vampire Lestat wrote"
Where is the job offerings on Palm's site? I can't find them.

You can find what jobs Palm has available here (http://www.maxhire.net/clients/mh160/index.html)

Alan G

[twrock]

If then are so stupid to release a wm Treo, and remain with Garnet For POS I wont vent here.
I will buy a Dell without a second thought.

Ah, yes, you are right. I think many have done exactly that already, for different reasons of course. This WM Treo will likely exacerbate the switching.

Maybe it's time for me to really dig into it and see if there are alternatives for my "necessary" apps in the WinMob camp. I've been putting that off in the hope that Palm would deliver, but I'm losing hope.

[pseudofilosofen]

Jeff,
After listening to podcast 36 - Thank you for the tip about Slap! Trying it out today, and it looks good. It even works together with Natara Daynotes, which I am already using.

Regards,
Anders H.

[Sjweise]

The too, seems like it would be cool until you realize that you have to launch the program and run it youself. It might save me time but I was hoping to just slide it in and presto - satisfaction.

[bquin]

You indicated you were having problems with hotsync. All of a sudden I am having a real problem: my T3 syncs fine, but at the end the screen freezes up with the message Cleaning up - please wait...

I have to d o a soft reset every time I hotsync.I am using Windows XP on a Sony allinone and a HP Laptop...

Please help..