1SRC Podcast ThirtyFive

[Jeff Kirvin]

The triumphant return of SkinUI (not a moment too soon) and why we don't need PalmSource after all. More on this week's Editorial review of Mobi-Systems OfficeSuite 7, and Gartner says the PDA isn't dead after all, but still manages to dis Palm. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1176)]

[Unregisteed]

http://www.canalys.com/pr/images/r2005071b.gif

If you count everything as PDA's (Treo's and LifeDrive's) then the Canalys numbers are surely what you are after. If it can run apps and fit in your hand they count it.

Looking at those numbers, despite the Treo, Palm OS is still down year on year, and is only 37% of the WM VS POS market, with WM the other 62% of course.

Still, more than 3 million units are being sold by traditional PDA makers (POS and WM), coming to >12 million per year, which matches or tops 2001 certainly.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Hi, Surur. I knew you'd post that. But I think it's worth noting that the massive growth in this market is in Europe and Asia, that US sales are flat. The Treo is just beginning to release into these non-US markets, so let's see if it eats into some of that WM marketshare when consumers have a choice between platforms.

[strider_mt2k]

Whoa, you can kick people in the head?
I'm just not that flexible man.

I have to differ on one thing, Jeff:

History shows that by the time the mainstream media gets ahold of many things, they have already passed.
I'm not saying that means that handhelds have, just that it's often the case.

The saturday night 1SRC chat is always interesting and fun.
Hearing from everyone in a live setting is really great, and much more dynamic than message forums!


We now return you to tonight's feature "Evil Trolls Attack Jeff Kirvin" starring Morgan Freeman as the president...

[LupeValenz]

Heheaheahahahahahahehahehehehahahhahah :d

[Unregistred]

We now return you to tonight's feature "Evil Trolls Attack Jeff Kirvin" starring Morgan Freeman as the president...

I think thats a bit of an unfair characterization. Jeff complained about uninterpretable numbers (I fully agree), so I provided some which speak for themselves. These numbers indicate that the Treo has not grown the Palm market yet, and as the Palm CFO said yesterday, appears to be cannibalizing the Palm pure-play PDA sales.

The Gartner report said something very interesting however, which was that most sales were to PDA upgraders, not new users. Should this inform marketing strategies?

[Vampire Lestat]

Hi Jeff,

Another good entertaining podcast. Thanks. :)

I have always said it and I will continue to say it, there is no way in hell PDAs are going to disappear. This product is destined to grow into a major mass market over the coming years.

Treos will will continue to sell well, but so will handhelds. Why? Because they have larger screens. The difference between watching a movie, surfing the Web, using an Excel sheet or playing a game on a 320x480 instead of a 320x320 is significant.

I predict that WiMAX and newer better variants will soon bring a permanent unlimited Internet connection to handhelds (much faster than cell phone bandwidth). Expect things like constant mobile MSN, push email, VoIP based videoconferencing, etc. The 320x480 devices will be the devices of choice for new wireless handheld.

Do not be surprised to see a trend towards having a nice 480x320 WiMAX fully connected handheld accompanied by mini cell phones.

I believe that Palm Linux is the way of the future and PalmSource will continue to be the driving force behind Palm OS (not Palm, unless they buy PalmSource). Never forget that the Linux kernel will bring many new developers onboard and it will reduce time-to-market and reduce operation costs. We will also being seeing ports of many popular native Linux programs. These are exciting times for Palm OS and its transition to the Linux kernel.

Windows Mobile is 2005 is going to put a lot of pressure on Palm. However, with Linux, Palm could start scaring Microsoft a lot more. Microsoft is already scared of the Linux desktop version... don't kid yourself, they are praying that consumers give up on Palm before PalmSource has a chance to get things going with Palm Linux. Do not let that happen. Go buy Palms, tell your friends to buy Palms. As consumers, we need choice and the only way to maintain a healthy competition is to buy Palms.

[strider_mt2k]

I think thats a bit of an unfair characterization. Jeff complained about uninterpretable numbers (I fully agree), so I provided some which speak for themselves. These numbers indicate that the Treo has not grown the Palm market yet, and as the Palm CFO said yesterday, appears to be cannibalizing the Palm pure-play PDA sales.

The Gartner report said something very interesting however, which was that most sales were to PDA upgraders, not new users. Should this inform marketing strategies?

I was just commenting on another growing trend.

[Dick Tracy]

Jeff, thank you for doing another podcast. I missed the intro music. Won't be purchasing the MobiOffice Suite as I'm ok with DTG and like my available RAM. You (everyone) can choose what to put on your device and I'm fine with that. As far as all the PowerPoint stuff, they're just numbers and exist to tell stories of the "purchaser" of the graphics. Unless they are filed with a regulatory agency using bulletproof Defined Terms and calculation methodologies, they're just prestidigitation in my eyes and experience.

[JAmerican]

We CLIE people have CodeDiver to extend our VG area. For the halo, we have KeyQuick. I've remapped my keyboard a bit to open the Command bar and use Tab on my keyboard to switch from button to push button to drop-down list, etc. The main reason I state this is because people like Dimitry has made using Palm devices grand. Also that thumbboards on handhelds are very useful.

Docs To Go has a tool called DatavizTechTool, which makes it easier to copy large files that are apart of DocsToGo to MS or Int. Media. This gives you at least around 6MB of RAM back. If MobiSystem had something like this, it still would not be enough because they still need to incorporate a Active Text Field. When I press the Backspace button, HiLauncher (which is called when my Home button is pressed) comes up.

The Treo 650 does belong because its a wireless device. If they added it, it would have been close or would have beat WinCE. In my time, I've seen Treo 650s all over the place. The amount of Treo 650s I've seen to Windows CE devices is amazing.

I still think that when mini-tablets come around, there will be devices like the UX50 and HTC Universal popup.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

Docs To Go has a tool called DatavizTechTool, which makes it easier to copy large files to MS or Int. Media. This gives you at least around 6MB of RAM back.

Actually as tosbsas mentioned in the thread for the review (http://tinyurl.com/ady9y), you can opt to install nearly everything to the card. The only thing that has to stay in RAM is the OfficeSuite front end app, about 700k. And if that's too much, you can probably use ZLauncher or PowerRun to move even that to the card.

Can't believe I spaced that. I'm blamin' the heat...

[JAmerican]

Actually as tosbsas mentioned in the thread for the review (http://tinyurl.com/ady9y), you can opt to install nearly everything to the card. The only thing that has to stay in RAM is the OfficeSuite front end app, about 700k. And if that's too much, you can probably use ZLauncher or PowerRun to move even that to the card.

Can't believe I spaced that. I'm blamin' the heat...

Ok fine, but the next problem is Enabling Active Text for thumbboards and keyboards. The backspace button acts like the Back button on a CLIE. This makes writing documents very difficult.

JAmerican

[strider_mt2k]

Excellent RAM info, thank you all very much!

[Simony]

> Looking at those numbers, despite the Treo, Palm OS is still down year on year, and is only 37% of the WM VS POS market, with WM the other 62% of course.

Surur, I see you are still preaching the Gospel according to Saint Ed Hansberry, from the Book of pocketpcthoughts.com. Tell me, does St Ed think it's possible for Palm to do anything right? (Stupid question, really.)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Ok fine, but the next problem is Enabling Active Text for thumbboards and keyboards. The backspace button acts like the Back button on a CLIE. This makes writing documents very difficult.

It's entirely possible that this won't work very well on a UX50. Those kinds of incompatabilities are part of why I don't use a Clie anymore. Only you can decide if the very real benefits the UX50 confers to you is worth the stuff you have to give up.

[Alan G]

Hey Jeff! I enjoyed your latest podcast on the ride home from work. I think that I will go for MobiSystem OfficeSuite - hey, for $20 how can I really go wrong?

I guess the next question is, can I run Docs To Go 7 Pre and OfficeSuite 7.1 side by side? I guess I'll find out shortly.

Keep up the good work, and I'll see you all at the 1src chat this Saturday night!

(I have to get Strider to do some voice overs for Tech Talk....note to self)

[JAmerican]

It's entirely possible that this won't work very well on a UX50. Those kinds of incompatabilities are part of why I don't use a Clie anymore. Only you can decide if the very real benefits the UX50 confers to you is worth the stuff you have to give up.

Some users have reported that some wireless keyboards need an Active Text Field as well or they get the same issue. Also, I find MobiSystems to be very bloatted aka very un-Palm like. You say that multitasking in Windows is unefficient, I say MobiSystems OfficeSuite is unefficient. 2.3MB for a SpreadSheet app is rediculous. I love the ability to use my UX's keyboard such as the Tab and Enter buttons to either move to the right or down in a spreadsheet. Very cool. Don't think a stylus can do that. This is why I don't want a non-thumbboard device. If Palm doesn't make one, I will have to make a decision. Amazing Windows Mobile is gonna have one, Linux has them, you would think Palm would join the boat. Don't talk statistics because if the Clamshell design was unmarketable, why are there laptops. Many that I have interacted with TH55 users, T|T5 users, WinCE users, have all said to me that they love the keyboard on my device. They themselves have trouble with the whole stylus input. I don't understand my companies think smartphones need thumbboards but handhelds don't??

JAmerican

[smoothjordan]

Some users have reported that some wireless keyboards need an Active Text Field as well or they get the same issue. Also, I find MobiSystems to be very bloatted aka very un-Palm like. You say that multitasking in Windows is unefficient, I say MobiSystems OfficeSuite is unefficient. 2.3MB for a SpreadSheet app is rediculous. I love the ability to use my UX's keyboard such as the Tab and Enter buttons to either move to the right or down in a spreadsheet. Very cool. Don't think a stylus can do that. This is why I don't want a non-thumbboard device. If Palm doesn't make one, I will have to make a decision. Amazing Windows Mobile is gonna have one, Linux has them, you would think Palm would join the boat. Don't talk statistics because if the Clamshell design was unmarketable, why are there laptops. Many that I have interacted with TH55 users, T|T5 users, WinCE users, have all said to me that they love the keyboard on my device. They themselves have trouble with the whole stylus input. I don't understand my companies think smartphones need thumbboards but handhelds don't??

JAmerican
I like the keyboard on the UX-50, but it's not as good as having the real thing, like I do with my Universal. You say handhelds don't have thumboards, the T|C has it, and palm hasn't discontinued that (have they?) so until that ones gone, that's gonna be the handheld to get if you want a Non Phone PDA. Honestly, I've had 3 treos (90, 600, 650) and the KB isn't necessary, as I use my keyboard when typing documents. It was nice for text messaging, but that's about it. I vote stylus!!!

[Jeff Kirvin]

FYI, I can use my Palm Universal Wireless Keyboard with no problems in OfficeSuite, so the lack of emulating a Palm text entry field doesn't seem to cause problems with all keyboards.

In the end, JA, if you don't like it, that's fine. I can afford the space and I like the capabilities unique to OfficeSuite (RTF, FTP), so my choice may be different than yours.

Dude, you live in New York. Diversity is good.

[JAmerican]

FYI, I can use my Palm Universal Wireless Keyboard with no problems in OfficeSuite, so the lack of emulating a Palm text entry field doesn't seem to cause problems with all keyboards.

In the end, JA, if you don't like it, that's fine. I can afford the space and I like the capabilities unique to OfficeSuite (RTF, FTP), so my choice may be different than yours.

Dude, you live in New York. Diversity is good.

Yea Palm does have the T|C but that's as old as my device. Thats really an upgrade. Kirvin, your right Diversity is good, but it looks like Palm doesn't believe in that. They have a whole line of PDAs that are just slate form-factor. Where are the tablet devices? This is what makes me upset. I love Palm OS but unlike Sony and the many handheld manufacturers of WinCE, they don't alternate their device styles. An example of this is that they are planning on making their newest Tungsten device just like the Tungsten E and T5, how original. OMG. The OS and handheld makes the device great, not just the OS.

Back to MobiSystems, I love the ability to add images and open files from certain directories but in the end, Docs To Go is for CLIE users and MobiSystems is more favorable for Palm users.

I want to know why you don't like Windows Multitasking again because I'm confused at your definition of efficiency?

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

JA, stick with your Clie. Palm brand handheld are simply not you.

As to efficiency, you've obviously never seen TextMaker on a WM device. Comparing robust word processor to robust word processor, OfficeSuite is much lighter and more nimble than the WM alternative.

I'm also not convinced Documents To Go 7 is all that much lighter than OfficeSuite 7. Both suites can be loaded mostly from the card, and in many respects I find OfficeSuite to at feel faster.

[JAmerican]

BTW, the CFO is interviewed in a webcast here...

http://www.wsw.com/webcast/rbc32/palm/

He states that the company is focusing more on the Treo than on the handheld department. He considers the LifeDrive a all-in-one digital entertainment device. They included a hard drive, something Sony never did, but the Mobile Manager developers better look at the Sony devices. Sony did not fail, they quit to focus on more profitable markets such as the Playstation Portable and the minimizing VAIOs.

JAmerican

[JAmerican]

JA, stick with your Clie. Palm brand handheld are simply not you.

As to efficiency, you've obviously never seen TextMaker on a WM device. Comparing robust word processor to robust word processor, OfficeSuite is much lighter and more nimble than the WM alternative.

I'm also not convinced Documents To Go 7 is all that much lighter than OfficeSuite 7. Both suites can be loaded mostly from the card, and in many respects I find OfficeSuite to at feel faster.

That makes no sense, if MobiSystems is slow on my device and is more bloatted and I have a slower processor, then a faster device should have MobiSystems running faster but not as fast as Docs To Go. Oh well. I'm not implying that you change to Docs To Go, jsut having a friendly Speech and debate.

JAmerican

[smoothjordan]

they quit to focus on more profitable markets such as the Playstation Portable and the minimizing VAIOs.

JAmerican
The PSP isn't making them any money, the movies for them are. Same as the PS3, Sony is actually losing money per console sold ($430 to produce, selling at $399) It seems sony is desperate to keep it's market share. I think they were losing too much money on the CLIE's and that's why they dropped it.

[smoothjordan]

That makes no sense, if MobiSystems is slow on my device and is more bloatted and I have a slower processor, then a faster device should have MobiSystems running faster but not as fast as Docs To Go. Oh well. I'm not implying that you change to Docs To Go, jsut having a friendly Speech and debate.

JAmerican
Do you think that the apps speed may be directly related to the processor type? (Sony vs XScale?)

[JAmerican]

The PSP isn't making them any money, the movies for them are. Same as the PS3, Sony is actually losing money per console sold ($430 to produce, selling at $399) It seems sony is desperate to keep it's market share. I think they were losing too much money on the CLIE's and that's why they dropped it.

Um, they loose money, sure but they get their games, movies and expensive MS make up for the losses. Your telling me that if Sony didn't make the PSP, they wouldn't have made more money? I doubt that. When the PSP came out, it was so hard to get a MS Duo at a good price. Now they are lowering and the 2GB are mainly being focused on. But just like Sony quit the handheld market, it seems Palm is doing the same with their focus so strong on the Treos that they have to use the same mold to create the new Tungsten. I hope Palm makes the new Treo look different than the 650 because as I said before, you need to have a good looking handheld with a stable OS for sales to come in. To me, being a wide-thumbboard user, I hated the Treo 650 thumbboard and I hope they make it wider or do something to make it a little easier to type with. Not sure what but something about the Treo thumbboard has to change. Another reason why, I think Sony dropped the CLIE line because they saw that Palm was becoming for smartphone-oriented. Since the CLIE line would now be interfering with the Sony Ericsson market, PSP market, probably even the VAIO (U series) market, they saw no need for it. I don't know. All I have to say is that I don't like the direction Palm is taking when it comes to their handhelds. I do like the Treo but feel the keyboard should have been bigger.

I actually never thought about the different processor types that might cause the issue. But I do know that the T5 is 4x faster then the UX. So Jeff really shouldn't see a difference in speed in both apps while I can. Same goes for memory. This is why in the podcast, he had to state that he didn't notice the amount of heap the app took up. Well to each his own. I'm just stating what I feel.

As I've said before, I have a feeling I will like Windows Mobile being I am a VB.net programmer and I have Windows at home. I've also used proprietary devices as you can see from my sig. This means that I have tried devices like the Sidekick and liked it till I decided I wanted more. I want video streaming on my UX, but due to Palm limitations or due to the lack of software availablem I can't have that. Windows offers it. I liked Multitasking on my Sidekick and miss loading a webpage going to check an email then going back to see the website is fully loaded. I miss these things. If I have to install a third-party app to close apps, so what. I have to install a third-party app to change the background and skin of my device. I also have to install a third-party app to control my processing speed. Who cares. At least it works. I hope I can get the HTC Universal to compare and contrast one day.

JAmerican

[smoothjordan]

Um, they loose money, sure but they get their games, movies and expensive MS make up for the losses. Exactly what I said read my post :) it seems Palm is doing the same with their focus so strong on the Treos that they have to use the same mold to create the new Tungsten. I hope Palm makes the new Treo look different than the 650 because as I said before, you need to have a good looking handheld with a stable OS for sales to come in. So your saying palm isn't getting the sales it needs from the 650? Trust me, I've seen about a billion 650's in my area, so I don't think that's true at all. I think the 650 is one nice piece of machinery, and it isn't to hard on the eyes. To me, being a wide-thumbboard user, I hated the Treo 650 thumbboard and I hope they make it wider or do something to make it a little easier to type with. Not sure what but something about the Treo thumbboard has to change. You are definitely stuck on that CLIE, the Treo has an awesome TKB. Not many people knows what the UX-50's feels like seeing as how not too many people bought it, so it's one of those things where it's better to have not experienced that, making the 650 "bliss" :) Another reason why, I think Sony dropped the CLIE line because they saw that Palm was becoming for smartphone-oriented. Since the CLIE line would now be interfering with the Sony Ericsson market, PSP market, probably even the VAIO (U series) market, they saw no need for it. I don't know. All I have to say is that I don't like the direction Palm is taking when it comes to their handhelds. I do like the Treo but feel the keyboard should have been bigger. That's just it, Sony was losing money, I don't think it had to do with the sales cutting into the vaio, ect, bc if you can afford a VAIO, you can afford a clie (Those things are expensive!!!)

I actually never thought about the different processor types that might cause the issue. But I do know that the T5 is 4x faster then the UX. So Jeff really shouldn't see a difference in speed in both apps while I can. Same goes for memory. This is why in the podcast, he had to state that he didn't notice the amount of heap the app took up. Well to each his own. I'm just stating what I feel.
That's just it, I don't know either, it's all speculation from me, I don't remember what processor that clie has. I haven't tried anything but Docs2GO, just because it was free( came with my T|E) and because it works so well for me. Oh, go ahead and speak, it makes everything more interesting.

As I've said before, I have a feeling I will like Windows Mobile being I am a VB.net programmer and I have Windows at home. I've also used proprietary devices as you can see from my sig. This means that I have tried devices like the Sidekick and liked it till I decided I wanted more. I want video streaming on my UX, but due to Palm limitations or due to the lack of software availablem I can't have that. Windows offers it. I liked Multitasking on my Sidekick and miss loading a webpage going to check an email then going back to see the website is fully loaded. I miss these things. If I have to install a third-party app to close apps, so what. I have to install a third-party app to change the background and skin of my device. I also have to install a third-party app to control my processing speed. Who cares. At least it works. I hope I can get the HTC Universal to compare and contrast one day.

JAmerican
I liked windows mobile, but for me, palm is better, I'm a student who needs a powerful organizer. That's palm in a nutshell. It's all personal necessity that drives you to the platform that best suits you.
J-Shep

[Unregstered]

The Treo 650 does belong because its a wireless device. If they added it, it would have been close or would have beat WinCE. In my time, I've seen Treo 650s all over the place. The amount of Treo 650s I've seen to Windows CE devices is amazing.
JAmerican

The Canalys numbers are easy to interpret because it DOES include Treo's.

[strider_mt2k]

I have to say that in the three days I've been working a retail job I picked up, I have seen two Treo 650s, and both people told me they really really liked it because it combined their PDA and phone.
They didn't have to fumble with multi devices.
In both cases they weren't happy with their individual handheld and cell phone, but happy with the combined features in the 650.

Now I wish we sold the 650! I wouldn't mind an employee discount! :D

[twrock]

...I think it's worth noting that the massive growth in this market is in Europe and Asia, that US sales are flat. The Treo is just beginning to release into these non-US markets, so let's see if it eats into some of that WM marketshare when consumers have a choice between platforms.

Oh how I wish it would happen this way. Unfortunately, I don't believe that will happen in Asia. Europe? Check with someone who lives there.

[intellidryad]

Oh how I wish it would happen this way. Unfortunately, I don't believe that will happen in Asia. Europe? Check with someone who lives there.
I don't know about the other Asian countries, but in Taiwan, about half of the verdors(of the ones I know of) that "specialize" in PDAs thinks that there's only one single OS for PDAs: Windows Mobile. You ask them anything about a palm, they ask you "what's that?" Since they only know Micro$oft, of course there's no treo.

Now, the Treo is a rare item in Taiwan, which can only be seen in the old palm specialty stores that are from the palm Vx era. Plus, Treo ads are even harder to find then the product it self. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

As long as Palm has this kind of pathetic marketing and retail network, I doubt that it will gain popularity. Because of the greater marketing of Sony, Clies are more easy to see then Palms here in Taiwan.

[JAmerican]

I have nothing against the Treo per say, I just don't like the keyboard. It may look nice but to me it seems like a downgrade from my current device. My High school doesn't allow us to have cell phones in school or they will be confiscated. The Treo 650 looks like a cell phone and is a cell phone. I understand that was the point of the device, but this is another reason why I don't want it. I want to be able to write down my homework or papers on my device and not worry about the Dean bothering me. The screen is also the same size as the UX screen with the graffiti open. I measured. This is another downgrade for me. All of you TH55 people and other device holders that dis the UX screen and like the Treo, well looks like you'll be using a UX screen but smaller. The keyboard is probably great for SMS and small emails not papers. I've written papers on my UX using Docs To Go as well as created spreadsheets and made small PowerPoints using my UX. This was very simple to do with the UX due to its wide and flush keyboard. Its easier to slide across the keys with your thumb (in my opinion). It does get annoying but I find the Treo keyboard to be even more annoying. I understand that the Treo has made a lot of money for Palm. Heck, think of the Treo as Palm's iPod (when it comes to sales). But as you all have used multiple devices, you get more and more of an idea of your dream device. You won't downgrade because everyone else is getting a device or maybe you will. I wouldn't. I find the Swivel screen to be very useful in making the device just like a slate device and hide the keyboard or expose the keyboard and make the device a laptop device. If you look at my devices, you always see that my device always got better. I saw the Sidekick as better than my Treo 90 in that the keyboard was soft, the device multitasked and was wireless. I see my UX better than my Sidekick in that my UX has wireless capabilities, a cool rotating screen, multimedia features, and memory expansion. My next device, I want it to multitask, be a phone, have the swiveling screen (to simulate the tablet PC look), have memory expansion, offer documenting software and a whole selection of games. I think you know which handheld I want.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

Oh how I wish it would happen this way. Unfortunately, I don't believe that will happen in Asia. Europe? Check with someone who lives there.

I can't decipher what you mean by that.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I don't know about the other Asian countries, but in Taiwan, about half of the verdors(of the ones I know of) that "specialize" in PDAs thinks that there's only one single OS for PDAs: Windows Mobile. You ask them anything about a palm, they ask you "what's that?" Since they only know Micro$oft, of course there's no treo.

Now, the Treo is a rare item in Taiwan, which can only be seen in the old palm specialty stores that are from the palm Vx era. Plus, Treo ads are even harder to find then the product it self. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

As long as Palm has this kind of pathetic marketing and retail network, I doubt that it will gain popularity. Because of the greater marketing of Sony, Clies are more easy to see then Palms here in Taiwan.

This is exactly my point. Palm hasn't rolled out the Treo to most non-US markets yet, so of course WM is more popular. There's no other option. Let's see what happens when the Treo, backed by proper marketing, launches in east Asia.

[Gekko]

"It's too late for Palm." - Michael Dell

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates

[Unregisterd]

I can't decipher what you mean by that.

http://surur.sytes.net/msbooth.jpg

This pic (from my camera phone) is from last weekend at a large local shopping mall in UK (Lakeside in Essex for UK residents). They had this MS staffed booth right in the middle of the concourse, shilling Navigation software for MS Pocketpcphones. The device on the banner is an XDA IIs. http://www.my-xda.com/xda2s.html As we know satellite navigation has been a big win for MS PDA's in UK, but I surprised to see them actively promoting the platform. There were not even any carriers there sharing the marketing burden.

PDA's grew 45% in Europe, and most of that is MS WM.

[Jeff Kirvin]

"It's too late for Palm." - Michael Dell

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates
Do you have any of your own thoughts to share? I'm sick of your relentless and pointless negativity, G. Palm isn't going to curl up and die like you want them to. I'm sorry if you can't let go of your hate at them for not upgrading your precious T3, but they've gone in another direction, and they're profitable with or without you.

Come up with something positive to contribute, or go away.

[Jeff Kirvin]

http://surur.sytes.net/msbooth.jpg

This pic (from my camera phone) is from last weekend at a large local shopping mall in UK (Lakeside in Essex for UK residents). They had this MS staffed booth right in the middle of the concourse, shilling Navigation software for MS Pocketpcphones. The device on the banner is an XDA IIs. http://www.my-xda.com/xda2s.html As we know satellite navigation has been a big win for MS PDA's in UK, but I surprised to see them actively promoting the platform. There were not even any carriers there sharing the marketing burden.

PDA's grew 45% in Europe, and most of that is MS WM.
Yes, thank you, Surur. No one is disagreeing with you, so you can shut up now.

WM devices have the lead in Europe and Asia. Palm has the lead in the US. Palm is only now starting to release the Treo 650 outside the US. The game is far from over, and we all concede that WM has the lead where you live in the UK. Let's see if they keep it.

[intellidryad]

This is exactly my point. Palm hasn't rolled out the Treo to most non-US markets yet, so of course WM is more popular. There's no other option. Let's see what happens when the Treo, backed by proper marketing, launches in east Asia.
Either you don't get it or I misinterpreted you, but I'd like to clearify this, to show how stupid Palm seem to be in Asia.

Palm DID roll out the Treo here, both the 600 and the 650. They do sell them, and does support them, but didn't even try to let people know that they do. What they did was put out a great device, and just let it drown in the vast market. They did it with the Treo 600, then repeated the old trick with the 650. In fact I have a feeling that they did that to every device except the m505, zire and the T3, which are the only ones that I actually notice the existance of ads.

Palm's foreign divisons are run by people that get their salery for nothing. They're killing product after product. Now that, I think, is something that is unforgivble.

[Gekko]

>Palm DID roll out the Treo here, both the 600 and the 650.

don't blind kirvin with facts. he likes to make up his own.

[Unrgisteed]

Jeff, stop being so testy. You did not know what twrock meant about the user experience in Europe and Asia, and I simply explained that here WM is actually actively being promoted there, while Palm is not. No need to bite my head off. I guess you don't care for first hand experience.

[Gekko]

Do you have any of your own thoughts to share? I'm sick of your relentless and pointless negativity, G. Palm isn't going to curl up and die like you want them to. I'm sorry if you can't let go of your hate at them for not upgrading your precious T3, but they've gone in another direction, and they're profitable with or without you.

Come up with something positive to contribute, or go away.

i could care less whether palm lives or dies at this point. i don't own any of their stock and i'm prepared to switch to another platform when necessary. and i don't want or need a job or consulting work or freebies from them either so i don't need to suck up to them.

i will be negative when i see negative and i will be positive when i see positive. who made you the arbiter of my thoughts and beliefs? just because i don't agree with your nonsense makes me unworthy to post?

you are in the minority in everything you believe. just like the democratic party - few are buying what you're selling. you should be used to that by now.

[Tam Hanna]

Hi, Surur. I knew you'd post that. But I think it's worth noting that the massive growth in this market is in Europe and Asia, that US sales are flat. The Treo is just beginning to release into these non-US markets, so let's see if it eats into some of that WM marketshare when consumers have a choice between platforms.

Hi Jeff,
you are roght about one thing-most ppl dont even know that the TReop xists. Walkd up to a T-Mobile clerk while in Slovakia for fun and asked about Treo pricing. Reaction was:
What Treo? Treo what? Dunno know Treo? Palm? Whatsa dat?...
And soon, the whole shop was buzzing around wondering whats a Treo...

BTW, this is not a joke

[Gekko]

Hi Jeff,
you are roght about one thing-most ppl dont even know that the TReop xists. Walkd up to a T-Mobile clerk while in Slovakia for fun and asked about Treo pricing. Reaction was:

And soon, the whole shop was buzzing around wondering whats a Treo...

BTW, this is not a joke

Momentum and inertia are deadly.

[twrock]

I can't decipher what you mean by that.
He said it better than I could have:
I don't know about the other Asian countries, but in Taiwan, about half of the verdors(of the ones I know of) that "specialize" in PDAs thinks that there's only one single OS for PDAs: Windows Mobile. You ask them anything about a palm, they ask you "what's that?" Since they only know Micro$oft, of course there's no treo.

Now, the Treo is a rare item in Taiwan, which can only be seen in the old palm specialty stores that are from the palm Vx era. Plus, Treo ads are even harder to find then the product it self. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

As long as Palm has this kind of pathetic marketing and retail network, I doubt that it will gain popularity. Because of the greater marketing of Sony, Clies are more easy to see then Palms here in Taiwan.
...and, even more importantly...
Palm DID roll out the Treo here, both the 600 and the 650. They do sell them, and does support them, but didn't even try to let people know that they do. What they did was put out a great device, and just let it drown in the vast market. They did it with the Treo 600, then repeated the old trick with the 650. In fact I have a feeling that they did that to every device except the m505, zire and the T3, which are the only ones that I actually notice the existance of ads.
It is easier to find an old Clie than a new Palm or Treo. Handheld shops have display cases with a huge variety of WinMob devices and almost zero Palm presence. And, no, the problem is not that they haven't rolled out yet; they have. They just have a very tiny retail presence. Palm has already been relegated to a niche product.

Far be it from me to tell anyone "why". I don't know. But I will say that it is the job of the management at Palm to figure out why and do something about it. That is if they want to be competetive.

On the other hand, we aren't talking life and death here.

[vta]

Seams to be allot of focus on 'numbers' which are valid to some point, but numbers do NOT indicate 'best'. Apple does not sell the most computers but apple users are very happy with what they feel is a better system. The number one selling song at any given time in say the USA is generally pretty crappy and their are millions of people driving pick ups and SUV's who might never actually use all the space and carrying capacity they are capable of. Basically the popular choice is not always the best one.

Love my Palm, and would not give it up for anything available currently, I believe Garnet is the best solution available at this time and I will do my bit to steer my friends towards Palms also. I visit these forums as I believe we as a group can effect change IF we focus on it.

Now, if someone could just tell me, did our pda's evolve or were they intelligently designed?

Adam

[Unreistered]

Palms evolved due to competitive pressure, while WM was intelligently designed (they were clearly over-engineered for the initial hardware and applications). There's a whole theme here to explore.

Does that makes WM the OS on the side of God?

[Gekko]

"best" is a relative, fluid, and complex term - and a matter of personal preference. it's subjective.

numbers are objective. they don't lie.

Business IS War.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Oh, bloody hell. I give up. I've never seen a group more eager to shoot the messenger.

I've tried to make the point that this isn't war, that there's room in this market (especially the smartphone market) for a wide variety of choices. I'm done trying to convince people that don't want to listen.

[rolandrsr]

Gekko according to Charles Handy a famous British management theorist who has consulted with Microsoft: "Numbers are opinions not facts."

[JAmerican]

Still think palm should make a clamshell device.

JAmerican

[archangel]

Palms evolved due to competitive pressure, while WM was intelligently designed (they were clearly over-engineered for the initial hardware and applications). There's a whole theme here to explore.

Does that makes WM the OS on the side of God?

You would think an all knowing God would have designed his OS with the ability to close programs, but who knows.

I'll stick with the OS for atheists I guess.

Not sure why there is so much constant worry about the death of the Palm OS. Definitely won't stop me from buying future Palm OS PDAs. Palm and WM will both evenutal get replaced, but trying to constantly future proof PDA purchases is impossible. Something better will always be on the way so why worry about it if the device you want will fits your needs today.

BTW, I would also buy a clamshell Palm if Palm, inc was crazy enough to sell one. I loved the NX80 and liked the overal design of the UX50.

[Gekko]

Gekko according to Charles Handy a famous British management theorist who has consulted with Microsoft: "Numbers are opinions not facts."

Those who can't do, consult.

[JAmerican]

Look how great the T5 is in the CNET video...lol after she presses the third or last shortcut button, the device crashes LMAO!!!!!!!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/PalmOne_Tungsten_T5/4505-3127_7-31132059.html?tag=txt

Lighten up people, enjoy life. LOL

JAmerican

[twrock]

Not sure why there is so much constant worry about the death of the Palm OS. Definitely won't stop me from buying future Palm OS PDAs.
My "worry" about the death of Palm OS is that Palm will never make a tablet style PDA with the T3 feature set plus an upgraded processor, more memory, a second card slot (CF) and WiFi prior to my having to buy it with WinMob OS instead. This configuration should have been out a long time ago. And no, I do not want the LD for the very reason that it has a hard drive (and its funky memory configuration) instead of a second card slot.

I am still hopeful that the rumored T7 will actually arrive and almost fit that bill (the CF slot is a total fantasy). However, history shows that it is very unlikely the T7 would have the full T3 feature set. More likely it would be a T5 with WiFi, if it ever shows at all. And if it had the full feature set, it would probably have an exorbitantly high sticker price (vs. the equivalent PPC). And once again, you will see a backlash against Palm from within its own community. And once again you will see people trying to tell those of us who are complaining that Palm is doing everything right because even though they are continuing to lose market share and increasingly become a niche player, they are (still) profitable. Will they remain so as their share continues to drop? Is the pie big enough? Will anyone even want their flavor? These are the questions we are "discussing".

Oh, bloody hell. I give up. I've never seen a group more eager to shoot the messenger.
(Then you haven't been to PIC lately.)

I've tried to make the point that this isn't war, that there's room in this market (especially the smartphone market) for a wide variety of choices. I'm done trying to convince people that don't want to listen.
You are equating "listening" with "agreeing". They are not the same thing. I hear you. I don't agree.

We are all doing nothing more that spouting our opinions. When we start talking about what the data means, we are analyzing. When we start talking about what will happen, we are predicting. Both are subject to a huge amount of error. What we do here is have a little fun spouting about something that is not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

But it's fun.

So we do it.

(Unless of course we do it because we have some sort of obsessive-compulsive disorder that requires us to babble on and on on Palm info sites even though we find the experience to be painful and unhealthy. In that case there is likely nothing anyone can do for us.)

[archangel]

Look how great the T5 is in the CNET video...lol after she presses the third or last shortcut button, the device crashes LMAO!!!!!!!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/PalmOne_Tungsten_T5/4505-3127_7-31132059.html?tag=txt

Lighten up people, enjoy life. LOL

JAmerican

She gets an error again further in the video. Can't believe they didn't edit out those errors.

I've never liked the T5. Very expensive device when launched that gave you very little for your money over the E or Zire 72 IMO. When it launched at $400 with all the bugs and issues with NVFS I thought Palmone had lost their minds. However, now that it is down to $350 and they have patched the bugs and are giving a free Wi-Fi card with it I like the T5 more and more.

I just never saw it as a $400 device when you see the kind of hardware you get from Dell on the PPC side or Tapwave at the time for the same $400. I know there is the whole business arguement. However, I proudly take my Zodiac to meetings and I am the only Palm OS user left at my office. Its about 70% Blackberrys and 30% PPCs among the PDA users.

[JAmerican]

She gets an error again further in the video. Can't believe they didn't edit out those errors.

I've never liked the T5. Very expensive device when launched that gave you very little for your money over the E or Zire 72 IMO. When it launched at $400 with all the bugs and issues with NVFS I thought Palmone had lost their minds. However, now that it is down to $350 and they have patched the bugs and are giving a free Wi-Fi card with it I like the T5 more and more.

I just never saw it as a $400 device when you see the kind of hardware you get from Dell on the PPC side or Tapwave at the time for the same $400. I know there is the whole business arguement. However, I proudly take my Zodiac to meetings and I am the only Palm OS user left at my office. Its about 70% Blackberrys and 30% PPCs among the PDA users.

Liked the Flash Drive functionality but my UX has a Data Import patch and Card Export so I'm fine in that area.

JAmerican

[twrock]

Look how great the T5 is in the CNET video...lol after she presses the third or last shortcut button, the device crashes LMAO!!!!!!!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/PalmOne_Tungsten_T5/4505-3127_7-31132059.html?tag=txt

Lighten up people, enjoy life. LOL

JAmerican
Ouch, ouch, ouch. If I were Palm, I'd send them an "upgraded" T5 and beg them to replace the review video. You've got to believe that those "errors" were left in the video on purpose. They could have easily been edited out.

[Dick Tracy]

For entertainment I took one of the Cnet courses on Getting the Most from your PDA/Smartphone. They flogged a Symbian phone as an "essential" tool to complete the course. Course material was over three years out of date on Palm devices and relatively current on WinMob; no mention of Symbian. Complaints by other students about this bias were responded to by instructor that she didn't create content.

Marketers regularly miss details. How about the T|E in the recent Outlook promo?

I worked at a major corporation that made a video in the days before cordless phones on how to use a touchtone phone system for order entry. The corp had its own in-house ad agency so the only outside resources were cameraman. The video featured a senior executive's #2 admin assistant (the cute one) tapping phone buttons to demo the process with voiceover from someone in PR. It went into production, VHS were sent to fulfillment center, customers, branches, etc. Marketing people were beaming. Nobody noticed that the phone was not connected to anything... IIRC a customer called.

[smoothjordan]

Palms would be better known if they were advertised better- I have NEVER once seen a Palm commercial in my life- They are aiming for average consumers but are missing the target completely... BTW, Circuit City has 3 times the Palm Models then PPC's, and we sell more Palm's then PPC's...

[PDAJah]

Oh how I wish it would happen this way. Unfortunately, I don't believe that will happen in Asia. Europe? Check with someone who lives there.

I live in the UK and the Treo 650 is difficult to find compared to the Symbian (majority) and WM Smartphones. Also the subsidies on the Symbian devices seem much higher, which means they are very cheap to buy (the Nokia 9300, 9500 and 7710 top-end Smartphones can be purchased for between UKP 0 and 99 with a 12 month contract). In the UK Orange seem to be the only network promoting the Treo and the special offers are for business users not consumers.

PS - Jeff thank you for another wonderful podcast

[JAmerican]

Palms would be better known if they were advertised better- I have NEVER once seen a Palm commercial in my life- They are aiming for average consumers but are missing the target completely... BTW, Circuit City has 3 times the Palm Models then PPC's, and we sell more Palm's then PPC's...

I have. I've seen a commercial with the Treo 650 in it. I've seen a comercial for the Tungsten E (mind you this was in late 2004 into 2005). I think they should be showing the LifeDrive, and other recent devices.

JAmerican

[smoothjordan]

I have seen commercials for the Treo 650, but they weren't from Palm, they were for Cingular, and at the end it said raising the bar. I think, like Mr. Kirvin has said before, Palm needs to be showing people the things you can do with it (Such as USB 2.0 speeds on the T|5!)

[Cyker]

Mmm. You know what I'd like? A PPC that can run PalmOS5.2.1. Natively.
But, like, less ugly and brick-like and more like my TH55 :D

On a slight tangent, does ANYONE here know where you can get LiPoly packs for a Zodiac...? Another interesting complication with Tapwave's departure I hadn't thought about is that I won't be able to source new ones from them... (My TH55's battery is starting to show signs of degredation (WiFi makes it drain faster) but I know where to get new ones; The Zod OTOH...! :eek: )

[twrock]

And the real reason "why we don't need PalmSource anymore":
http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=8002

[smoothjordan]

And the real reason "why we don't need PalmSource anymore":
http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=8002
That does suck. Goodbye POS!

[jjesusfreak01]

The first change I would make is to ditch the flat interface and go with a skinnable UI. One that is based on graphics instead of simple colors. We've seen limited attempts at this already from the developer community in the form of apps like Zlauncher and LauncherX. But these are merely launchers, not UI skinning apps. They change the appearance of the launcher display, not the UI itself. Your applications still look the same, as does the OS. PalmSource needs to build an entirely new framework that is based on graphics. Every aspect of the interface should be graphical; Scrollbars, buttons, dialog boxes, window frames, toolbars, menus, progress bars, etc.

Imagine if you could make PalmOS look like OSX or Longhorn? I know that would make a lot of Palm users (including myself) VERY HAPPY. Not only that, it would give go far in making PalmOS itself look and behave more like a modern platform. There are a lot of good technologies in Cobalt for example, but since the OS looks little changed, it gives the illusion of "same" to the end user.

Skinning PalmOS is just one way of moving the user experience forward. That is priceless, thanks for telling us Jeff. Tell Kent that I start on the Longhorn skin when Dmitry adds Alpha blending into skinUI. The TC will probably be the only program with the capable hardware (Microsoft did say Vista would take a nice graphics card), but who cares, I can make it. Maybe I'll wait until beta 2 is out. Remind Kent it would be wise to stay a part of the community if he plans to write editorials on it.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Yeah, I know. Mr. Nako's WinBlue skin looks awesome and matches the Energy Blue theme on my XP box perfectly.

[new]

hey Jeff, love your brand of podcasting (esp the heat/caffeine deprivation induced side tracks), and look forward to hearing more of them.

btw, I am a ppc(my own) and palm user(work pda) - and I really wanted to upgrade to a palm. Pretty much the only thing that I find stopping me is the hardware stuff: ie. no user-replaceable battery, memory, and wifi and bluetooth in the same device being a rarity....i propose that palm cross breed the treo 650 and the lifedrive: the would be awesome :)

Pat
ps: can't wait for the mini-tablets, though they have to sort out how dissipate the heat being generated (heard the OQO gets quite hot....dunno about the vaio U series though)
pps: also love your learned opinions such as the ever classy "sucks monkeys" response...you rock!