1SRC Podcast ThirtyFour

[Jeff Kirvin]

Podcast archive?
Tech Talk 19, and how going first didn't necessarily help Alan
Traffic and Weather
Breaking News: Tapwave officially discontinues the Zodiac line
This Week's Editorial
Why the Clié is dead
Moto Q and why the Treo needn't worry
New SkinUI
MobiSystems OfficeSuite prereview [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1169)]

[tungsten t5]

well, can't wait to listen, but I somehow got to the chat section of tapwave and talked to a chat person. All they said was that the DNS server was down, (but why would that cause the "tapwave has been Discontinued" thing to show up?) so, i emailed Joyce at tapwave so lets see if we get a responce. I have an RMA'd zodiac at tapwave right now, so what will happen with that?

[smoothjordan]

Knew it would happen with the tapwave, and it's funny that t5 is the first to post, since it's the best, but no longer in production... Overall, good podcast Jeff. I find your voice impressions hilarious!@

[Jeff Kirvin]

Overall, good podcast Jeff. I find your voice impressions hilarious!@
I do what I can...

[Cyker]

Clies are dead? Is this in the same way Palms are dead...?

*checks TH55* Yup, still workin' ;)
Mmm...SharkAudio...! :D


The Zodiac stuff 'tho... that's REAL bad news :(
I knew they were going to stop the Zodiac, but I assumed it was to change focus.
Reading the site, it sounds like the entire Tapwave company is folding!! :eek:
This means no support and no signing - No more Tapwave-specific apps will be signed so people without DAA's are screwed, and people with e-store software like nWeb, Doom etc. will never be able to transfer their software. The few guys who recently got their RMA's Zods back must be really pissed since they can't use ANY of their DAAs or estore-bought software now....

DRM. What a ****ing great idea.

[JAmericanUX50]

Clies are dead? Is this in the same way Palms are dead...?

*checks TH55* Yup, still workin' ;)
Mmm...SharkAudio...! :D

So true. Mine is still working too and with a new TH55 battery, it will last even longer :)

As for no one wanting a device filled wth features or spec sheets, why are you using a T5 or why do you want a EVDO Treo?Why haven't you stayed with your Palm Piolet. It has a single purpose...PIM. Your idealogy on the area of handhelds is very subjective. I would have liked a camera in the LifeDrive. I don't think you can fit a 6MP camera in your pocket. If you can let me know. You always say "No one needs...". Well, no one needs a PDA without a keyboard, how's that. You have be open to the different ideas of people because this is a discussion forum where people don't conform but debate and rebuttal their opinions. As for the UX being a market dud again, the reason it probably didn't sell wels due to Sony's misconceptions. If the UX was released last and the VZ first, the VZ would have had an LCD screen, would have been thinner, would have probably had a poor battery and little Memory. The UX would have an OLED screen, been a little thicker, would have had a better battery. The UX was first and COINCIDENTALLY was clamshell. The fact that it was the first HHE device made it poor because Sony thougt the processor would have allowed the saving of so much power. With their failuresin the UX, they decided to fix their pblems by adding a better battery. We see a trend of increasing battery size in the HHE series of devices. The HTC Universal looks like its going to be a hit. We will have to see the results that are produced though.

You said Sony is gone because they didn't sell to a particular market. Well, I think that was the strongpoint. I hate the business look of some of the Palms. The CLIEs range from teenagers to adults with the stylish UX/VZ to the sleek TH. You've got it all wrong. As for the ability to play music via DSPs is genius. Don't see Palm doing this. They are ung Pocket Tunes, which BTW is very wasteful of battery life compared to the Sony DSPs. I should know, I used both and the DSPs last longer. Sony at least took the step to muti-processors in a handheld with the HHE. Sony's ego took them out of the market. They knew that Palm was too flexible to control. Sony as you know is alr mostly proprietary which is why most of their accessories are expensive. I think their inability to make their devices proprietary based in the sense that only their software is installed in it caused them to leave. It could also be that Sony felt the need to develop more than Palm had to make the OS work for them. Sony brought Media and wide screens to Palm, which caused them to develop this.

In the end, I feel that my CLIE is very much alive in that I wrote a whole post on my UX via BT and I still have 100% power. I have a feeling that Palm has made some stupid choices and one of those is just letting Sony go. Another is that Palm is still developing poor devices in tha you need third-party apps to fix major problems. I didn't need to do that for my UX and you say Clies are dead.

JAmerican

[Alan G]

Clies are dead? Is this in the same way Palms are dead...?
*checks TH55* Yup, still workin'

Hey....I wanted to use that line! I'm going to go listen to #34 on the drive in to work. I'll be back later.

Alan G

[LupeValenz]

You don't have access to the following module due to invalid access level. Please login/use different account.

Freakin error!!! I WANT TO LISTENNNNNN!!!!

[jjesusfreak01]

Has anyone wondered about the fact that if Tapwave stops support they are actually breaking their warranty? Zodiacs are still available at retail, and any Zodiac bought today is covered under a developers warranty. Unless they are completely going out of business, they are in a tight space legally, and have to give their users support.

On another note I would like to say that I agree that Garnet is a good platform, but what are your expectations that Palm Inc is actually going to clean it up. You need to be realistic. Give me some evidence that this is actually going to happen, and I might hold a little faith. Lucky for us, licensees are able to modify the OS to add fun stuff like DSPs and graphics drivers. Unfortunately for us, not many companies have the initiative to do this.

I would send a message threatening to sue Tapwave if they dont release a generic DAA or a generic signing program so that users can still use their handhelds. This would be like if Apple went out of business, and you found out that your iPod stopped playing music because it needed an update. You can no longer play new games made for the Zodiac because they cant be signed. Now its Palms turn to drop their customers, they are the only ones who havent yet.

[Dolomite]

My Clie UX50 isn't dead. It still turns on, still runs Garnet, and still has integrated keyboard, WiFi, BlueTooth, incredible clamshell design, & HiRes display. Something Palm *still* hasn't been able to produce.

[JAmerican]

My Clie UX50 isn't dead. It still turns on, still runs Garnet, and still has integrated keyboard, WiFi, BlueTooth, incredible clamshell design, & HiRes display. Something Palm *still* hasn't been able to produce.

Well said. By Kirvin saying CLIE is dead. He's saying Palm is dead. Both most recent Palm and CLIE devices as you so clearly state run Garnet. The most recent CLIEs were never given firmware updates because they were already perfect. Your T5 was lagging even though it had so much memory and so was the LifeDrive. Palm had to release software to fix your device. Our devices came perfect. The LifeDrive actually required a third-party app by Sharky. Now tell me, whose a failure? Remember Sony left Palm, they weren't bankrupt out of the handheld market.

JAmerican

[Bionic Antboy]

Heheh... Jeff, I love your podcasts, but you're comments re: Clie vs. Palm have always COMPLETELY missed the mark.

I remember back in February making the point in a podcast thread that Palm could learn a LOT from Sony, and should try and create a media centric device (and other Sony fans said the same thing), with the Palm OS being the back end. Of course, we now have the LifeDrive and it's a step in the right direction, but I wouldn't give up my UX for one. The "bag o' features" in the last generation Clies make them better for media playback than any other Palm device (other than raw storage).

As you support the initiative in the media-player arena, instead of complaining about what you see as Sony's undoing, wouldn't it be beneficial to point out what Sony did right, and makes the last generation (2 years old) BETTER than Palm's brand spanking new media-centric offering?

Palm could learn a LOT from that experimentation (and I think they've learned SOME). Maybe focusing on the positive aspects of these "poorly thought out bag of features", instead of knocking them for doing so would be beneficial to Palm's future.

As for what killed Sony, it wasn't the overflowing spec sheet, bag o' features nature of them. It was the price the end user had to pay for it (and Sony's marketing of it could have been better).

I'm also pretty sure that if Sony weren't so tied into Ericsson in the phone market, we would have seen a Clie phone.

But that's okay, because I've had my UX for almost 2 years, and I won't be letting it go until it crumbles to dust, because it outperforms the LD in media, and out thumb-boards the Treo, and it looks SO DANG SEXY when paired up with my SE phone. :D

Right now, Palm's doing well with the Treo, for sure, but smartphones alone aren't going to save them, as the competition continues to heat up.

[Alan G]

Geez, one small comment about going first... =P

Anyway, I liked the discussion of the Moto Q. It added a new dimension to what I talked about on Tuesday.

As for the Clie, while Sony is no longer making or selling them, folks like Tyler will ensure that Clies are going to be hanging around for a while. Make sure tht you check out SharkAudio if you have a later Clie, especially if your device has the DPS.

And on the subject of podcast archives; I'm going to be archiving my Tech Talk podcasts. I don't really expect people to want to buy old shows, but maybe when we're talking about T5 cultists who won't trade up for a new Treo, that they might want to go back and hear an old show. Same thing for the Clie special podcast. Jeff, you might want to archive some of your more, um, "memorable" podcasts. Like the WM 5.0 vs the T5 podcast. "Tables in Word; Got it!"

Alan G

[soccrnj80]

I thought this was interesting:
http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/07/28/palm-strong-in-the-lead/

Wasn't someone posting graphs showing the opposite of this? Just thought this was great to see again.

[LupeValenz]

AHHHHH someone mail me the podcast!! MP3 format of course :D. I am bored at work and I can't download this at work :(.I sooo want to hear this debate of the clie. ^_^

[LupeValenz]

Doh, forgot email is artistfantasy at comcast dot net ^_^

[Bionic Antboy]

I thought this was interesting:
http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/07/28/palm-strong-in-the-lead/

Wasn't someone posting graphs showing the opposite of this? Just thought this was great to see again.

That's one of the things that was missing in the debate. Palm OS may or may not have the market share, but WM has an exponentially higher number of hardware vendors carving up their percentage. There's nothing wrong with being the #1 manufacturer in the segment. ;)

[Unregstered]

I thought this was interesting:
http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/07/28/palm-strong-in-the-lead/

Wasn't someone posting graphs showing the opposite of this? Just thought this was great to see again.

Its WM vs POS, not Palm VS HP.

Did you notice that POS (=Palm these days) was down from 42% to 36% marketshare, and sold nearly 300 000 less devices. WM actually sold AT LEAST 35 000 MORE handheld devices. Thats without knowing what OS the 350 000 other devices are, but its almost certainly not Palm, and quite likely to be the many other WM licensees such as Mitac, Asus, Fujitsu Siemens etc.

Dont let the facts confuse you (like the Palm Addict story, which confuses 2004 with 2005)
http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2005/07/palm_in_the_lea.html

[Bionic Antboy]

Its WM vs POS, not Palm VS HP.
No matter how you spin it, being the number one mover of hardware isn't a bad thing, in ANY growing market space. I'm sure Apple wishes they were in a similar position in the desktop space.

[archangel]

Liked the podcast, but you were a bit off the mark on the Clie. Sony made a wide range of Clies over the years and they were aimed at specific users. I'll grant you the UX50 was just too expensive for consumers, but Sony taking chances was not a completely negative thing. All those innovations Sony made with MP3, Hi-Res color, 480X320, built in keyboards, dual blue tooth and Wi-Fi, camera, etc, etc were all copied by your friends at Palm who couldn't come up with an original idea in the past few years that was worth a damn. Oh wait they did come up with that stupid slider. Yeah that was genius. Even the Lifedrive was just a rip off of the iPod. The Treo?, well yeah they found a company with a good idea and bought them.

I'm scared to think of what will happen now that Sony, Tapwave and Handspring are gone. Basically the three companies responsible for 99% of the innovation in the Palm OS over the last 5+ years are gone or bought up. We now have to rely on Palm to push the technology? Just thinking about that is depressing. However, I'm also hopeful that with the success of the Treo and the Lifedrive they will do a better job at pushing the technology.

I wouldn't even be a Palm OS user if only Palm had made handhelds back when I bought my first PDA.

[Unregstered]

Apple does very well actually. Dispite having only 5% of the computer market they are the 4th biggest seller of computers. They are also of course very profitable. Its just that there are a million other smaller dealers selling PC's, which all ads up to MS's 90% dominance of the market. Same thing here.

Surur

[Bionic Antboy]

Apple does very well actually. Dispite having only 5% of the computer market they are the 4th biggest seller of computers. They are also of course very profitable. Its just that there are a million other smaller dealers selling PC's, which all ads up to MS's 90% dominance of the market. Same thing here.

Surur

Okay, trolly mc trollerson...

Yes, Apple IS profitable, but all I said re: Apple was: "I'm sure Apple wishes they were in a similar position in the desktop space."

Now, do you think that the above statement is an accurate or inaccurate OPINION of where Apple would like to be in the desktop hardware space?

nuff said... me no feed'em no more.

[JAmerican]

Liked the podcast, but you were a bit off the mark on the Clie. Sony made a wide range of Clies over the years and they were aimed at specific users. I'll grant you the UX50 was just too expensive for consumers, but Sony taking chances was not a completely negative thing. All those innovations Sony made with MP3, Hi-Res color, 480X320, built in keyboards, dual blue tooth and Wi-Fi, camera, etc, etc were all copied by your friends at Palm who couldn't come up with an original idea in the past few years that was worth a damn. Oh wait they did come up with that stupid slider. Yeah that was genius. Even the Lifedrive was just a rip off of the iPod. The Treo?, well yeah they found a company with a good idea and bought them.

I'm scared to think of what will happen now that Sony, Tapwave and Handspring are gone. Basically the three companies responsible for 99% of the innovation in the Palm OS over the last 5+ years are gone or bought up. We now have to rely on Palm to push the technology? Just thinking about that is depressing. However, I'm also hopeful that with the success of the Treo and the Lifedrive they will do a better job at pushing the technology.

I wouldn't even be a Palm OS user if only Palm had made handhelds back when I bought my first PDA.

I applaud you. This is exactly what I believe as well. Palm would probably be a 320x320 handheld maker still with only Bluetooth or maybe not even bluetooth in their devices if it weren't for these companies. And your right archangel, I bought from Handspring because I loved the look of their devices. My first Palm was a Treo 90. I loved it. I never actually bought a Palm handheld before which does not strike me as surprising because I'm not fond of Palm hardware. When I was going to buy another palm some time after my Sidekick, I looked for Handspring and later realized they had been bought out by Palm. I decided not to buy any of their devices. The first time I saw the UX was in a CompUSA. I knew that would be my device.

A device must look good as well as function great. If these are not both true, I won't buy the device. Sony did this and thus I bought from Sony.

I also would not be a Palm user if Sony was a WM licensee as well as Handspring.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

Okay, couple of things...

I understand that you guys love your Clies. I get it. And for you, they are perfect. But you guys aren't even close to the average user. The power user market is simply not big enough to sustain a company. That's why HP and Dell sell so few of their VGA handhelds compared to the cheaper models. Sony lacked a coherent vision, and eventually abandoned the Clie. You guys care more about the Clie than Sony does, get it? You're in the same boat as Zodiac users. I know the feeling, I was a member of Team OS/2.

Secondly, given how many former Palm/Handspring execs are now in charge at the new Palm, I think it's more accurate to say Handspring took over PalmOne, regardless of how it looks on paper. Handspring's management team is in charge now, and the Treo is the flagship device. The Tungstens and Zires will fade away over time.

And lastly, no matter how the trolls try to spin it in their sad need to assert superiority, Palm is going great, outselling every other mobile computer vendor by double digits. Apple has proven quite conclusively that you don't need dominant market share to be profitable, and that's what it's really all about. This isn't a race, it's not even really a competition. There is no winner. Platform marketshare is a meaningless number. All that matters is that Palm is profitable. Period. Anyone who tells you that the Palm OS platform is dead is just a yahoo with an agenda. They're certainly not a Palm shareholder.

[Cyker]

Palm only moved more units because it had cut lots of OEM deals with businesses. (Smart thinking ;))

Sony sold a lot more units at retail than Palm, espescially during what I consider the golden era (Beginning around the time Sony released the N770).

One thing about Palm is they are very slow to change - When Sony were doing MIDI, Wav and HiRes, they were still 160x160 and bleeping. Their idea of advancement was 8-bit colour and Lithium Ion battery packs!
But with the two of them, this worked well - Sony innovated like crazy (In the 'A lot' sense as well as the 'insanely' sense ;)), but at the cost of some stability while Palm made dependable rock-solid PDAs which had a more limited function-set.

The split and subsequent release of OS5 is where Palm tried to change their focus and IMHO this is where things started slipping for them.

Now, one of the reasons Sony went with PalmOS and not PPC is that PalmOS was VASTLY more customisable by OEMs. The early WinCE/PPC OS was basically set in stone - OEMs had to design their devices *around* the operating system, not the other way around as it is with Palm. Even now, PPC's are a lot more restricted in how far they can deviate from the baseline - Significant additions/changes to PPC hardware only come if/when MS decides to add support for it to the next version of the OS.

When OS5 was released however, the ability to mod the system at low-level was made much harder to do in a stable fashion, and this made Sony's job a lot harder - A surprising amount of their mods are still 68k code rather than ARM - and from what I gather, access to the ARM layer was discouraged and limited (Ostensibly for stability reasons).

There are good points and bad points to PalmOS's flexibility - Because all our devices essentially have a custom written OS for each, we can't upgrade the OS easily, while PPC's can because they're all very similar.

Now, I was going somewhere with this but my proof-reading has gotten me confused so I think I'll just go back to Marvin'ing about Tapwave... *sniff*...


#include <disclaimer.h>
#include <asbestos-suit.h>
#define MyHumbleOpinion
#define PointlessRambling

[T-Man]

Hi. I was just listening to 34, I think I'm gonna start a weekly thing now :) Saturday nights @9pm (EST, PDT???) is the chat?

[Dolomite]

Okay, couple of things...

I understand that you guys love your Clies. I get it. And for you, they are perfect. But you guys aren't even close to the average user. The power user market is simply not big enough to sustain a company. That's why HP and Dell sell so few of their VGA handhelds compared to the cheaper models. Sony lacked a coherent vision, and eventually abandoned the Clie. You guys care more about the Clie than Sony does, get it? You're in the same boat as Zodiac users. I know the feeling, I was a member of Team OS/2.

Secondly, given how many former Palm/Handspring execs are now in charge at the new Palm, I think it's more accurate to say Handspring took over PalmOne, regardless of how it looks on paper. Handspring's management team is in charge now, and the Treo is the flagship device. The Tungstens and Zires will fade away over time.

And lastly, no matter how the trolls try to spin it in their sad need to assert superiority, Palm is going great, outselling every other mobile computer vendor by double digits. Apple has proven quite conclusively that you don't need dominant market share to be profitable, and that's what it's really all about. This isn't a race, it's not even really a competition. There is no winner. Platform marketshare is a meaningless number. All that matters is that Palm is profitable. Period. Anyone who tells you that the Palm OS platform is dead is just a yahoo with an agenda. They're certainly not a Palm shareholder.

I don't know how far back your memory goes, but I seem to remember a little place called ClieSource long before there was ever a 1src. From my recolection, it had more than it's fair share of "average" users. Sony, much like Palm has today, certainly had different classes of devices targeted at different users. Perhaps the profits just weren't there, or maybe they just changed their handheld focus to the PSP, but the Clie line was and still *is* a very good match up feature for feature to todays Palm. I know you emphasize time and time again that nobody needs this, and nobody needs that, but the truth is there will always be people who want more than the average user. Offering choice is a GOOD thing, and higher end devices WILL appeal to many people.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Saturdays at 9pm EDT, GMT -4

[Jeff Kirvin]

Sony got stupid with the Clies in the last year they were available. The similarly priced TJ25 matched up very poorly to the runaway hit Tungsten E. Sony spent so much time on the high-end, low-sales devices that they threw away all their profits.

[T-Man]

Thanks, Jeff

[strider_mt2k]

I don't know how far back your memory goes, but I seem to remember a little place called ClieSource long before there was ever a 1src. From my recolection, it had more than it's fair share of "average" users. Sony, much like Palm has today, certainly had different classes of devices targeted at different users. Perhaps the profits just weren't there, or maybe they just changed their handheld focus to the PSP, but the Clie line was and still *is* a very good match up feature for feature to todays Palm. I know you emphasize time and time again that nobody needs this, and nobody needs that, but the truth is there will always be people who want more than the average user. Offering choice is a GOOD thing, and higher end devices WILL appeal to many people.

Say it, brother.

Jeff, if it's okay for you to like vanilla, why isn't it okay for us to like our flavors? -even if they don't sell as much as vanilla? -or get cancelled?

You know, Sony also didn't share information regarding the innovations they made.
Does this ring as being somewhat familiar?

"Poorly thought out bag of features" is needless viciousness, and frankly beneath you.
If Clies sucked so bad, then surely their mere failure should be enough to satisfy?
Yellow Card indeed.

As I did in the chat, I would like to point out how badly you are pining for an application designed to mimick (not duplicate) the operation of the "poorly thought out" Handheld Engine CPU for your color 320x480 handheld with collapsable input area.
This is to wring a bit more battery life from your T5 is it not?
I find that to be telling in a number of ways.

You can not like 'em, but you'll get better reactions pointing out what Palm's handhelds do better than Clies then trying to tear them down, because in many ways they were and still are superior devices.

Sales shmales, this ain't beancounter-ball we're playing here.
Beta was also superior, but failed due to Sony's wacky-assed ways.

Okay, to Palm's credit NVFS and hard disk storage are new and cool.
Perhaps on the NEXT go round with those two (2) innovations they'll get them right right out of the box. (while they further refine the multimedia.)
And maybe share some information about it with developers too!

And maybe Palm will stop the corporate square dancing and logo coloring and golden parachuting and get down to making a handheld that is above average for above average users who will not accept sprinkles on valilla solutions when vanilla ain't quite right yet.

[LupeValenz]

How dare you speak badly of the Cliea!!! I think that the reason Clie didn't last in the market is because people DID want what the Clie offer, it was just tooo much. Look at the TH. That is one hot Clie, and a cheap one as welll, one people could afford and so thats why alot of people have TH more than any other Clies. If the Clie were actually affordable, we would see more of them, sadly, they were just over priced but the hard core Clie users realized that it is a Palm Handheld..PLUS more. It could do all that Palm was able to do at the time, plus do more. Also....it is just soooo sexy hehehe.

[tk__421]

Sony got out of the buiseness because they are all about FEATURES. That Palm OS is way too archaic to support high end features. The proof is in the very crashy LifeDrive.


The reason why Palm has an incremental design approach is very simple: they know that they can't add too many features to their handhelds, so they are adding them on at a time just to drive sales upward. Sony already had most of the features of the newer Palms over 2 years ago, save for Storage space, which was too expensive back then anyway. What more could they have added to the UX or TH, except for a HD? They already offerred everything that Palm will be able to offer in a year, if they are lucky.


The PDA market will shrink considerable, as PIM moves to Smartphones. What will be left in the handheld market? Power users who want a REAL pocket computer in their pockets. This is why WM devices are already outselling Palm OS devices. Now tell me, what will happen when Dell and HP release devices with Hard Drives in the Fall? What will happen if these devices ACTUALLY WORK? What will happen when VGA screens become the norm?


I returned my LD because I wanted it to do everything that my old Zire71 did, PLUS web browsing, network connections, and storage space. That fact is, Blazer was unstable, the networking was crashy, and the hard drive itself had lots of problems. (Like transferring a file that actually was not really there after the transfer, like many other people experienced, etc...) Moreover, it could not even run all the apps that I could run on my Zire71!!! Back in the box it went. The money is going on a hx4700 now.


The TJ47 had wi-fi almost two years ago. When will Palm ever release a mid range device with Wi-fi? Sony was a bit ahead of the US with wi-fi, because they originate from Japan, where wi-fi is everywhere. If their devices hd been released now, they would certainly outsell Palms.


PalmOS is going the way of Smartphones. PPCs are a stand-in for windows vista tablets, like Jeff said himself. Just knowing this, it's pretty obvious who will win the war in the coming years.


Palm reminds me of Nintendo. "GamePlay over features and technology"! We all know where that lead them. Okay, they were profitable for a while, but we could still see where they were heading.


When people buy new devices, they want more features. Since Palm can hardly give this to current PDA users, many people who decide to upgrade choose VGA PPCs over Palms. It's the sad reality, and the truth is in the numbers themselves.


It's funny how Palmists are running around in a frenzy, now that their platform of choice is collapsing, screaming "you don't need this, you don't need that!!" Yeah, right! I guess that's what the thousands of users who switch to PPC are thinking too. I don't need VGA, I don't need a CF slot, I don't need to browse the web with JAVA and frames, I don't need Flash animations, I don't need to edit pictures that I take from my digital camera (ANY camera, BTW) on the go, I don't need beautiful sound that doesn't skip when I switch applications, I don't need multitasking, etc...


Thanks for the tip. Come to think of it, Pac-Man was a fantastic game! Who needs that PS3 and all that Final Fantasy crap?


I rest my case.

[Dick Tracy]

Sony has been restructuring for some time. Here (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/presen/05q1/pre_index.html) are their latest financials: 36 Billion Yen loss in Electronics Division with 13 Billion Yen in restructuring costs, up 1 Billion from Q1 04 (figure between 100 to 110 Yen to a Dollar). Hopefully the new Chairman will turn this around but I do not anticipate re-entry into handhelds. The smartphone business (part of Electronics), Sony-Ericsson is off 23% from same quarter last year. Only area that seems highly profitable is Japanese Financial Services. Not promising. Enjoy your Clies.

Jeff, good heads up on the Q's batteries. Will be interesting to see the reviews after they're torture tested. I personally think the screen is too small and that there is a lot of wasted empty space on this unit, not to mention (repeat) the software shortcomings you've pointed out.

[archangel]

I give Palm credit for starting the move to NVFS, but they borrowed the Hard Disk storage idea from Sharp and the popularity of the iPod. Hopefully though they will be the company that makes it very successful in a PDA.

Sony was successful with the Clie for a time and did have devices for all price ranges, but Palm noticed it and went after them with their more affordable Zire multimedia line. For all of Sony's great technology they just couldn't beat the name recognition of Palm. People go to buy a Palm and sure enough they focus on the ones from Palm. Even though devices like the Zire 71 and Tungsten T were inferior to Sony's offerings people went with the Palm brand name. This was one of the big things that was unfair about the licensing of the Palm OS. You can use the OS, but if you are successful with it Palm will just come and crush you with lower priced hardware since they at the time owned the software and hardware business. At least with the PPC Microsoft doesn't sell hardware to compete with you as well as selling the OS.

I don't think the NX and UX series killed Sony as much as Palm stealing away the lower to middle range business. Not to mention the PPC taking away a ton of potential Sony Multimedia customers. If Sony had gotten the TH55 out the door 6 months sooner they may have been fine as that device destroyed the T3 in quality and value, but it was too late when they finally got it on the market.

The comment "Poorly thought out bag of features" is dowright one of the most distasteful things you have ever said in a podcast. You do realize most of us came from Cliesource and wouldn't even own Palm PDAs if it hadn't been for those features. When I think "Poorly thought out bag of features" I think T3 and that mediocre T5 you seem to love so much. The Lifedrive and Treo are the only positive things from Palm in years and you have Handspring and Sony to thank for both of those. Without Sony there would probably be no Lifedrive now as that is a device aimed right for people that loved Clies.

I understand how Palm operates and why they can't throw around money like Sony. However, the Sony bashing needs to end. They were a very positive thing for the Palm OS and allowed the OS to move lightyears ahead without Palm having to overextend their finances to do it. Give credit were it is due.

[archangel]

Palm reminds me of Nintendo. "GamePlay over features and technology"! We all know where that lead them. Okay, they were profitable for a while, but we could still see where they were heading.


Well, if Palm has the success of Nintendo they will be just fine. Nintendo is still a very,very profitable company and whether you like their ideas or not they are playing it smart like Apple and Palm and finding themselves a successful niche to operate in. Not everyone can be as big or have as much money to toss around as Microsoft or even Sony for that matter.

Companies like Palm, Apple and Nintendo focus on specific areas of success and that is how they make themselves profitable. Nintendo is the number two publisher of games in the world slightly behind EA and the number two manufacturer of gaming hardware in the world slightly behind Sony. They will not be shutting their doors anytime soon.

[tk__421]

Hey! It's a very "badly thought up bag of features" to be able to read pdf files, and have a real web browsing experience with Netfront. Oh, High res screens are a bad idea too. And a MP3 player on a PDA?? Just what were they thinking over at Sony? (And PULEEEEAAASE don't mention wi-fi!! The net on a handheld? Who needs that?)


Palms will do okay as long as there are more HVGA devices as there are VGA PPCs in stores. People don't buy stuff they need. They buy stuff that awes them, at the lowest possible price.


I am selling my HDTV and getting a black and white TV! I can still watch the news even in black and white, no? Who needs stereo too?


I am glad that I can finally see the light!

[tk__421]

Nintendo is still a very,very profitable company and whether you like their ideas or not they are playing it smart like Apple and Palm and finding themselves a successful niche to operate in.


Says who?

Nintendo made money lately because of the increasing value of the yen, NOT because of their video games! They actually LOST money on video games!! They were just lucky with currency exchange rates.


In the same vein, Palm is profitable because of the Treo. But the OS is on a slippery slope. That is what matters. The market in electronics is driven by features. If they can't compete in terms of new functions, people will not upgrade, mostly with HD based Dells and HPs on the way.


I am starting to sound like a PPC Troll now, so I will leave it at that. Palm will not listen anyway, nomatter what happens here.

[archangel]

Says who?

Nintendo made money lately because of the increasing value of the yen, NOT because of their video games! They actually LOST money on video games!! They were just lucky with currency exchange rates.


Says Nintendo. They have not lost any money on videogames. The only loser they have right now is the GameCube and that is being far outweighted by the success of the DS and the continued solid sales of GBA software. They did not make all their profit on a strong yen. That only accounted for about a quarter of the profit. This is obviously not a topic for this podcast, but if people are going to talk about the death of companies like Palm and Nintendo at least get your facts straight.

TOKYO--Nintendo today announced a net profit of 87.42 billion yen ($809 million) for the business year ended March 31, 2005, a figure more than two and a half times that of the 33.19 billion yen ($307 million) earned in fiscal year 2004. Sales kept steady at 515 billion yen ($4.77 billion), while operating profit rose by a small margin of 3.6 percent to 112 billion yen ($1.03 billion). Sales in North America were 257.9 billion yen ($2.39 billion), and sales in Europe were 121.3 billion yen ($1.12 billion). Meanwhile, sales in Japan totaled 132.0 billion yen ($1.223 billion).

[tk__421]

First of all, I never said that Palm or Nintendo would die, just that they would bcome the providers of a niche market. Of course, they can still make much money out of this. Power users used to buy Clies, not Palms. So now they will get PPCs. Most people on these forums are power users, not mom and pop users. So I think that this is very relevant for many people here who entered the PalmOS world because of Sony.


I will try to get the articl that I read about Nintendo's financial condition. It didn't paint a rosy picture. Anyway, I love Nintendo, so I wish them the best. They are true video game artists. At least they provide their customers withj a quality experience. They don't release buggy prototype-level dvices like Palm does (i.e. LifeDrive). If at least Palm excelled at what they did, I could have the respect for them that I have for Nintendo.

[jjesusfreak01]

I give Palm credit for starting the move to NVFS, but they borrowed the Hard Disk storage idea from Sharp and the popularity of the iPod. Hopefully though they will be the company that makes it very successful in a PDA.Actually, I believe the UX Sonys did have built in NVFS storage. They have a built in app to backup the handheld to the NVFS storage. At the time, I dont believe the OS had any built in NVFS ability, with the exception of storage card support. Though Palm wrote the software, it was the way that the OS was inevitably headed, and Sony did make the first devices with some built in NVFS storage.

[Cyker]

Totally. Nintendo are making a killing in the handheld market.

The DS and that thrice-damned Nintendogs game alone are raking in the cash faster than you can shake a large tree trunk at.
Not doing so great on the consoles, where MS and Sony are still the dominating force, but the DS is butchering the PSP (And will continue to do so until the PSP actually gets some decent software! It's really sad that the most fun games you can get on it right now are via hacked emulators!!!)

[Cyker]

Actually, I believe the UX Sonys did have built in NVFS storage. They have a built in app to backup the handheld to the NVFS storage. At the time, I dont believe the OS had any built in NVFS ability, with the exception of storage card support. Though Palm wrote the software, it was the way that the OS was inevitably headed, and Sony did make the first devices with some built in NVFS storage.

Well, the UX's system isn't really NVFS, but they're both designed to achieve the same thing - Avoid data loss on battery drain.

To be honest, I much prefer Sony's implementation - It was far less intrusive, only kicking in during a critical situation and thus not slowing the unit down like NVFS does, and didn't require programmers to modify their programs specifically to work around Yet Another Arbitary Layer of Complexity to stop them crashing.
It was simple and did the job.

[jjesusfreak01]

I have to agree Cyker. IMHO, the best NVFS system is one that uses a storage card independant from the OS for non volatile storage. A perfect app would be one that would kick in when the battery was low, override the memorystick usage limits, and backup the RAM. You know what the advantage of this is? The OS doesnt erase it when you do do a hard reset, and it forces the system to still have real RAM. Less RAM on any device is never a good thing.

[Vampire Lestat]

"... why have a website that goes down when you drive into a tunnel?!" Jeff Kirvin. July 28, 2005.

hahahahahahaha that one is a classic LOL

[jjesusfreak01]

"... why have a website that goes down when you drive into a tunnel?!" Jeff Kirvin. July 28, 2005.

hahahahahahaha that one is a classic LOL
Boy, he needs an STSS (Sub Terranean Server System) adapter for that. It would handle all of the problems.

[JAmerican]

I have to agree Cyker. IMHO, the best NVFS system is one that uses a storage card independant from the OS for non volatile storage. A perfect app would be one that would kick in when the battery was low, override the memorystick usage limits, and backup the RAM. You know what the advantage of this is? The OS doesnt erase it when you do do a hard reset, and it forces the system to still have real RAM. Less RAM on any device is never a good thing.

Yay. I love the Backup Media on my UX and Int. Media as well. Great implementation of NVFS. :)

JAmerican

[JAmerican]

So true. Mine is still working too and with a new TH55 battery, it will last even longer :)

As for no one wanting a device filled wth features or spec sheets, why are you using a T5 or why do you want a EVDO Treo?Why haven't you stayed with your Palm Piolet. It has a single purpose...PIM. Your idealogy on the area of handhelds is very subjective. I would have liked a camera in the LifeDrive. I don't think you can fit a 6MP camera in your pocket. If you can let me know. You always say "No one needs...". Well, no one needs a PDA without a keyboard, how's that. You have be open to the different ideas of people because this is a discussion forum where people don't conform but debate and rebuttal their opinions. As for the UX being a market dud again, the reason it probably didn't sell wels due to Sony's misconceptions. If the UX was released last and the VZ first, the VZ would have had an LCD screen, would have been thinner, would have probably had a poor battery and little Memory. The UX would have an OLED screen, been a little thicker, would have had a better battery. The UX was first and COINCIDENTALLY was clamshell. The fact that it was the first HHE device made it poor because Sony thougt the processor would have allowed the saving of so much power. With their failuresin the UX, they decided to fix their pblems by adding a better battery. We see a trend of increasing battery size in the HHE series of devices. The HTC Universal looks like its going to be a hit. We will have to see the results that are produced though.

You said Sony is gone because they didn't sell to a particular market. Well, I think that was the strongpoint. I hate the business look of some of the Palms. The CLIEs range from teenagers to adults with the stylish UX/VZ to the sleek TH. You've got it all wrong. As for the ability to play music via DSPs is genius. Don't see Palm doing this. They are ung Pocket Tunes, which BTW is very wasteful of battery life compared to the Sony DSPs. I should know, I used both and the DSPs last longer. Sony at least took the step to muti-processors in a handheld with the HHE. Sony's ego took them out of the market. They knew that Palm was too flexible to control. Sony as you know is alr mostly proprietary which is why most of their accessories are expensive. I think their inability to make their devices proprietary based in the sense that only their software is installed in it caused them to leave. It could also be that Sony felt the need to develop more than Palm had to make the OS work for them. Sony brought Media and wide screens to Palm, which caused them to develop this.

In the end, I feel that my CLIE is very much alive in that I wrote a whole post on my UX via BT and I still have 100% power. I have a feeling that Palm has made some stupid choices and one of those is just letting Sony go. Another is that Palm is still developing poor devices in tha you need third-party apps to fix major problems. I didn't need to do that for my UX and you say Clies are dead.

JAmerican

Seeing as you did not see this Kirvin. I'll make my points a little more straight forward...

As for no one wanting a device filled wth features or spec sheets, why are you using a T5 or why do you want a EVDO Treo?Why haven't you stayed with your Palm Piolet. It has a single purpose...PIM.

You always say "No one needs...". Well, no one needs a PDA without a keyboard, how's that.

The UX was first and COINCIDENTALLY was clamshell. The fact that it was the first HHE device made it poor because Sony thougt the processor would have allowed the saving of so much power. With their failuresin the UX, they decided to fix their pblems by adding a better battery. We see a trend of increasing battery size in the HHE series of devices.

In the end, I feel that my CLIE is very much alive in that I wrote a whole post on my UX via BT and I still have 100% power. I have a feeling that Palm has made some stupid choices and one of those is just letting Sony go. Another is that Palm is still developing poor devices in tha you need third-party apps to fix major problems. I didn't need to do that for my UX and you say Clies are dead. If CLIEs are dead, Palm is dead because CLIEs made Palm.

JAmerican

[quasar]

Jeff, I think you and Alan and maybe Tyler should all get together over skype or something and do a combined podcast. It would be nice to see how hwving multiple people in a Palm OS podcast would affect it.

[Jeff Kirvin]

"PalmOS is going the way of Smartphones. PPCs are a stand-in for windows vista tablets, like Jeff said himself. Just knowing this, it's pretty obvious who will win the war in the coming years."

What war? Why do you guy persist in thinking this is a winner take all market?

Let me make this very clear. Whether or not Palm succeeds has nothing, nothing at al, to do with what Microsoft or Symbian does. There is no winner.

Palm's success depends on continuing to deliver products and services that people what to buy. That's it.

This isn't a race, it isn't a war. Success is not mutually exclusive.

[Jeff Kirvin]

As far as the Clié goes, listen to this week's Maximum Geek over on SoloMedia.org. I'm not saying the innovations in the Clié line weren't great, just that the market for the devices in which they appeared wasn't enough to be worth it.

Palms tend to be designed to solve a specific problem. All too often the Cliés were solutions in search of a problem, and never found it. You can take a look at just about any Palm and visualize the person it was meant for. My T5 is a perfect match for my needs-- everything I want and nothing I don't. Who was the UX-50 meant for?

I'm a former Clié owner myself, guys. Don't take this as Clié bashing. Sony made some cool stuff, but it always felt more like a technology demo than a real and focused product.

Even if the Clié had been more successful, Sony probably would have killed it by now anyway. The Clié line would be redundant between the VAIO U series, the PSP and the SE P900 series smartphones.

Just one man's opinion, feel free to disagree.

[tk__421]

I never said that it was a winner takes all market. Just that Palm will go from leader in the handheld market to second place, that's all. The trend has been pretty strong even in the last year, and it will certainly get worse in the next, even more so that the Zodiac is going the way of the Clie, and hard drive based PPCs ar on their way in the Fall, along with NVFM that could actually be stable.


The PDA market is shrinking, and Palm's share of this market will shrink as well. Of ourse, they can still function and be profitable, much like Apple and Nintendo. But these two companies survived because they provide quality products. Palm's products are great IN THEORY, but you just can't ignore the problems that LD owners are experiencing. Never heard such complaints from Gamecube and NS owners. Of course, you can just dismiss them, right? "Just don't use Versamail (which is bundled with the LD!!!!) and Blazer (about the only web browser for the LD), and don't use third party apps (could you live without Fitaly? I can name over 20 programs I can't live without)". Fact is, if NDS were that buggy, and Macs full of bugs, then their future would be bleak, wouldn't it be?


People LOVED their Clies. Most people just USE their Palms. Palm's only strength lies in the horrible WM user interface, that's all. (And nice apps like US Money and Bonsai).


I am keeping my Zire71 for PIM, but would not consider a Palm for web and networking in quite a while, not after my disastrous LD experience. I will CERTAINLY not trust the LD's hard drive with my life, no thank you! If the LD didn;t need any hard reset, then I could live with the fact that the LD's disk gets erased with one. But it's really not safe as it is. A microdrive on a PPC is much safer, and removable also. I am sure that you must already know that I am not the only person who feels that way. The level of disatisfaction from palm users is pretty high, just from reading this forums. Just go take a look at Nintendo and Apple forums, and you will see that these customers are actually very satisfied with their purchases.


I wish Palm the best. They have a beautiful user interface. But the OS is a mess! People are confusing OS with UI!!! WM is bloated? You can say that all you want, but every new itteration of Garnet is more like a mutation, just waiting to be validated by Palm's paying beta testers.

[Jeff Kirvin]

TK421 sez... "The PDA market is shrinking, and Palm's share of this market will shrink as well. Of ourse, they can still function and be profitable, much like Apple and Nintendo."

The second part is all that matters.

And for what it's worth, if Palm ends up with an Apple-like 4% of the smartphone market, it will likely be bigger in terms of units sold than 40% of the PDA market. Percentages don't matter. Only profits matter and Palm is profitable.

'Nuff said.

[JAmerican]

As far as the Clié goes, listen to this week's Maximum Geek over on SoloMedia.org. I'm not saying the innovations in the Clié line weren't great, just that the market for the devices in which they appeared wasn't enough to be worth it.

Palms tend to be designed to solve a specific problem. All too often the Cliés were solutions in search of a problem, and never found it. You can take a look at just about any Palm and visualize the person it was meant for. My T5 is a perfect match for my needs-- everything I want and nothing I don't. Who was the UX-50 meant for?

I'm a former Clié owner myself, guys. Don't take this as Clié bashing. Sony made some cool stuff, but it always felt more like a technology demo than a real and focused product.

Even if the Clié had been more successful, Sony probably would have killed it by now anyway. The Clié line would be redundant between the VAIO U series, the PSP and the SE P900 series smartphones.

Just one man's opinion, feel free to disagree.

I can look at the UX and see it was meant for a person who could not afford a laptop aka Me and the many other UX owners. I look at the TH and see it was meant for both business and pleasure. The VZ was meant for a person of media. One who loves to listen to music, and watch videos for hours.

I look at all the Palms offered and I seriously cannot find a replacement for my UX. The LifeDrive was meant for who? Government? Businessmen? Personal Use? Looks like a plain device to me with no specific person in mind. It also has the issue of static shock and lag (for those who buy it direct from the store and don't know of SharkCache). Palm really got this one right. A laggy 4GB static-shocking radiator in your hand. Yep, way better than CLIEs. The Tungsten had the same issue in lag. At my work, a woman with a T5 told me of how it kept crashing on her and I offered to assist her, she later told me she performed a hard reset and that she was fine. Probably afraid I would break her device. Anyway, my point is that we have the benefit of being able to use these hacks but what about the people who don't. I don't think every business person or regular person who buys a T5 knows of the new update. Thus leaving them in the dark with a laggy device. At least the Sony CLIEs came ready to use in the box and had little or no ROM updates because they were NOT necessary. And Palm knows what it is doing. I think that my UX50 is a great laptop replacer. I wanted a Tablet and thats what I got. Video, Audio, DSPs (something Palm has yet to offer), Wireless, USB port for easy syncing (I personally hate cradles), rotating screen for tablet or laptop viewing. Palm will never reach this level because they believe in simplicity. And when they make simple devices, they still get it wrong.

EDIT: In relation to your comment before this post...

So you don't believe Palm should be the best it can be. Just do enough to survive. That's weak. Wouldn't a Palm praiser, like yourself, want Palm to thrive.

JAmerican

[archangel]

Palms tend to be designed to solve a specific problem. All too often the Cliés were solutions in search of a problem, and never found it. You can take a look at just about any Palm and visualize the person it was meant for. My T5 is a perfect match for my needs-- everything I want and nothing I don't. Who was the UX-50 meant for?

I'm a former Clié owner myself, guys. Don't take this as Clié bashing. Sony made some cool stuff, but it always felt more like a technology demo than a real and focused product.


Fair enough. I just get my feathers ruffled a bit when people are real negative about the Clie. Things we now take for granted in the PPC and Palm line were first brought to us by the Clie. The blood Sony spilled has helped out Palm, inc in the long run and we are all better for it.

I can hear the arguement that the NX and UX line tried to give us too much in one device and were just too expensive because of it. Releasing PDAs at a $600-$800 price point is just not going to find many consumers now matter what the features. The NR and NX I owned were both bought when they dropped to the $350 range.

However there was a market for the UX and NX series (I was one of those people) but there just were not enough of us that could pay those high prices to make the line work.

From the figures I have seen the Ipaqs at those high price points have struggled just as bad as the Clies did before them. $400 seems to be the ceiling for a PDA to find a real market.

[Jeff Kirvin]

A laggy 4GB static-shocking radiator in your hand. Yep, way better than CLIEs.

I don't want to get into an argument about this so I'm not going to bring up how many Clies were recalled for defects. Everybody has quality control issues, so let's not have a double standard here.

JAmerican, I've had just about enough of your taking your anger out on me. Sony quit. If you love the Clie line so much, take it up with Sony. Quit attacking me for mentioning the fact that the Clie was a market failure and Sony chose to abandon it and their customers.

I was mad at IBM for abandoning OS/2. You know what I did? I got over it and got on with my life.

So you don't believe Palm should be the best it can be. Just do enough to survive. That's weak. Wouldn't a Palm praiser, like yourself, want Palm to thrive.

This will be my last reply to you since you clearly have no intention of actually reading what I say. I said that Palm doesn't have to dominate the market, that this isn't a zero sum game. I want Palm to be successful, to be profitable and keep making great products. That has absolutely nothing to do with market share and if you can't wrap your brain around that, we have nothing more to discuss.

[Ballajura]

I really look forward to Jeff's podcasts, and although I also own a Clie NX80, a lot of what Jeff said is true. Does that change my relationship with my NX80? Not at all..it suits me perfectly and although I like what the LD has to offer, it doesn't really offer a significant advantage over what I already have and it will probably last me for quite a long time yet.

The NX80 is my first Palm unit after owning a PPC device. I knew I wanted a Palm after my experience with the Casio PPC, and I had and spent some time looking at what was available. I really liked the T2 and then the T3 came out but couldn't understand why you'd put a slider on such a great screen to cover one third of it. It seemed a good idea on the T2 though because it covered the DIA when it wasn't required.

I had always liked the NX80 but at the time they were AUD$1300 here vs around AUD$750 for the T3!! Then Sony had a runout on the NX80's and I picked up one for AUD$800 which included the speaker cradle plus WiFi card as a bundle so I was set. I really do love this device as I have full PIM management, listen to songs via Pocket Tunes and even watch the odd video, etc, etc. I also like to tinker with various software to learn more about the Palm OS and I really like the way Sony included a lot of bundled apps such Docs-to-go, MS-Backup, etc.... And by the way, Sony MS's are quite cheap on eBay. So in other words, the NX80 suits me perfectly.

I remember reading an article on Brighthand soon after they pulled the plug on marketing Clie's everywhere else but Japan; about why the Clie failed. As Jeff suggested, Sony put everything they could in the Clie's. This made them high-end devices. According to this article, this is what the Japanese market wants because people there take pride in displaying their gadgets; a mine is better than yours type of mentality. This is even to the extent of putting lanyards on them so they can be worn, rather than pocketed!! This goes along with Jeff's comments in his podcast regarding Palm's devices being designed to fulfill a particular market, rather than trying to be everything and then finding that market. It worked in Japan because that market is different. Sony did a great job with the Clie's but they were a high-end device in the end. Am I sorry to see them stop the Clie line?...of course, but mine still works. Will I buy another Palm OS device? ...most likely, but only when my NX80 dies. May it be a long time from now!

So, thanks for the podcasts Jeff and keep it up. Most entertaining and informative.

[intellidryad]

Here's to the "facts" you mentioned.
So did sony target it's gadget's at certain markets?
Of course!
The NX series was originaly designed to be the ultimate media gadget. A shutter button that altomaticaly launches the camera, a audio remote that wakes up the device and plays right away, just like walkmans. A dedicated audio chip for music and MIDI. Special hardware for smooth movie play back. Where else do you find such a great dedicated mutimedia device? This is what the Japanese likes, but I guess not such a hit with the Jeff-type-people. Many bought it for the big screen, that you cannot get from any other device at the time of the NX70/NX60's.

The early SJ and TJ's were ment to be what the T|E is. And I know people who use them happily just for PIM. Why the T|E selled better? Price.

The TH was ment to be an innovative PIM device with the "handwriting everywhere" clie organiser. But clie organiser wasn't easy enough, and instead it was sold as all in one devices.

You ask where is the UX targeted to? A network surfer, or "communicator" in sony's language. However, it suffered once again, from it's price.

The VZ is a great media device, it's clear enough. But it once again suffered from the high price.

So why did the clies not sell that much? Stupid marketing and over pricing, but not inferior products.
What's more, the killing of the clie is more of an internal corperate problem of sony. It is losing money, and franticly looking for divsions to kill. Because it does so much, the clie competes with Walkmans, small Vaios, SE Smartphones, and most of all, the PSP. Killing the Clie line not only saves money but also clears the way for the PSP.
---
Bythe way, I curious that one innovation of the clies was left unnoticed by all the previous posts that are listing out the innovations: Jogdial.
It's on every clie (except minor cheep SJ's) from the very first one. It's what makes a device a Clie. And it's still the fastest way to scroll down a long page on a PDA. Alas, it goes away with the clie.

[archangel]

Bythe way, I curious that one innovation of the clies was left unnoticed by all the previous posts that are listing out the innovations: Jogdial.
It's on every clie (except minor cheep SJ's) from the very first one. It's what makes a device a Clie. And it's still the fastest way to scroll down a long page on a PDA. Alas, it goes away with the clie.

Honestly this is the one thing I miss the most. As an ebook reader the jogdial was by far the easiest way to read books. Thankfully the Zod lets you use the left and right shoulder buttons to change pages with eReader, but nothing is as easy to use as the jog dial. I find the controller on the front of Palm inc devices very uncomfortable to use for ebooks.

[Cyker]

Ahh the jog. It's little details like that that I look for in a PDA ;)
But there is and has always been a very big difference in mentality between japanese and american designs.

[Unregstered]

Maybe thats why Fujitsu Siemens Cooperation puts a jog(like)dial in all their high-end PDA's (proper jog dials are patented by Sony I believe)

[JAmerican]

Maybe thats why Fujitsu Siemens Cooperation puts a jog(like)dial in all their high-end PDA's (proper jog dials are patented by Sony I believe)

If you notice, American-designed handhelds like the LifeDrive (for example) waste a lot of side space or space in general. The UX has no extra space on it for anything else, same goes for the TH and VZ. Sony makes every space count. The Blackberries are also poorly designed in my opinion. RIM should have placed the USB port on the bottom so cradles could be used.

JAmerican

[Scott R]

Interesting discussion. I had been tempted many times by the UX40/50. And even today, I consider it and the Zodiac to be two of the most innovative and appealing Palm OS devices ever made (for my needs). I'm hoping that with the Handspring folks firmly entrenched in decision-making roles at Palm that we may finally see a clamshell thumbboard-equipped Palm device. Why such a device wasn't released the moment native landscape support was added to OS5 continues to astound me.

[Jeff Kirvin]

If you notice, American-designed handhelds like the LifeDrive (for example) waste a lot of side space or space in general. The UX has no extra space on it for anything else, same goes for the TH and VZ. Sony makes every space count. The Blackberries are also poorly designed in my opinion. RIM should have placed the USB port on the bottom so cradles could be used.
Again, this is a design choice. Personally, I much prefer the sparseness and focused design of Palm and Apple designs to Sony. The later Clies were positively bristling with buttons, making it far too easy to hit something you didn't mean to by mistake. Good design is just as much what you choose to leave out as what you choose to put in. Although I would welcome a well-placed jog dial for ebooks.

Again, just my opinion.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Interesting discussion. I had been tempted many times by the UX40/50. And even today, I consider it and the Zodiac to be two of the most innovative and appealing Palm OS devices ever made (for my needs). I'm hoping that with the Handspring folks firmly entrenched in decision-making roles at Palm that we may finally see a clamshell thumbboard-equipped Palm device. Why such a device wasn't released the moment native landscape support was added to OS5 continues to astound me.
Read Piloting Palm. They looked at clamshells back in the Hawkins Pilot days and passed on the concept.

[Cyker]

Yeah, that kind of thing isn't really part of Palm's design ethic.
I often wonder what Psion would have produced if they were a PalmOS company. The Series 5 had and still has the best keyboard of any PDA I know of...!

Wasn't exactly what you'd call svelt 'tho, esp. next to my TH55 (But then again, what does? :D)

[JAmerican]

In a world were computers are getting smaller, you would think a mobile company like Palm would consider Clamshell devices. Clamshell devices are just small laptops. In 2 or more years when Vista in running on devices like the UX, I bet Clamshells won't be considered sucky or market duds.

JAmerican

[rcartwr]

Again, this is a design choice. Personally, I much prefer the sparseness and focused design of Palm and Apple designs to Sony. The later Clies were positively bristling with buttons, making it far too easy to hit something you didn't mean to by mistake. Good design is just as much what you choose to leave out as what you choose to put in. Although I would welcome a well-placed jog dial for ebooks.

Again, just my opinion.

Jeff,

I think that Cyker and perhaps others have alluded to this but I would say its not really a question of "good" vs "bad" design but one of philosopy. The geek level of your average Japanese consumer would be off the American scale. Also, at the risk of being non-PC, the average Japanese consumer is also physically smalller and tends to think of everyday items being smaller. This idea is well illustrated in the Japanese version of the Econo Lodge, the motels that sleep you in a tube with common baths and the like. A salaryman sees that as normal. If you did this in the US, it would be shut down by the government as not fit for human habitation. Its a difference in what the people want or will accept, not a good v. bad design issue.

[JAmerican]

Read this...

http://www.pcworld.com/resource/article/0,aid,122032,pg,1,RSS,RSS,00.asp

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

Yeah, Josh and I already discussed that in last night's Maximum Geek Podcast.

[Unregstered]

The Tablet PC market is due to grow from $1.2 billion in 2004 to $5.4 billion in 2009, with the U.S. remaining the biggest market followed by Europe then Asia, according to Brian O'Rourke, a senior analyst at the company.

Hang on, so the PDA/Smartphone market at the moment is worth more than the tablet pc market in 2009 is supposed to be? And its supposed to replace it?

[Jeff Kirvin]

No, it's not a one to one transition. PDAs will slowly disappear, replaced by mini-tablets. Full-size tablets will continue to grow modestly and the smartphone market will boom.

I can't express my exhaustion with trying to explain that this isn't an all-or-nothing, zero-sum game.

[JAmerican]

So when will we start seeing these "tablets" or "UX-style" devices as I like to call them. I already see them in the WM field. If Palm attempted to make these types of devices, they better try again, seeing as it is the future of mobile computing.

JAmerican

[Gekko]

palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.

if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'être. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.

i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. stop using this analogy, apologists. especially if that's the only/few products you sell!

right now, palm has virtually 100% of the palmos smartphone market. how will palm function when they get X% of the WM market?

[Jeff Kirvin]

palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.

Instability? Frozen feature set? What are you talking about? Your argument is based on complete unfounded assertions. Garnet is fine for today, and extendable for tomorrow.

if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'être. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.

Here we agree, and I've said so. While Palm may have been considering a WM Treo under Bradley, I don't think Colligan will allow it.

i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. stop using this analogy, apologists.

You cynics can't have it both ways. Either the smartphone market is exploding or it isn't. Given the numbers I've seen touted recently, 4% of the smartphone market is actually more units sold than 40% of the PDA market. Granted, I'm not the savvy businessman Gekko claims to be, but I think if Palm continues to grow and continues to be profitable, that should do it.

If the smartphone market isn't booming, then Windows Mobile and Symbian are doomed, too, and there's nothing to do now but listen to the band as the boat sinks.

Personally, I'd prefer to keep a positive outlook.

[T-Man]

If the smartphone market isn't booming, then Windows Mobile and Symbian are doomed, too, and there's nothing to do now but listen to the band as the boat sinks.


Titanic, anyone?

[T-Man]

Wait, I just thought of something! Will Palm become like the Titanic? Palm was the best known PDA producer when they first came, now, it seems as if they're losing customers and are slowly sinking? If Palm closes in the year 2012, that will be weird :eek:

[Jeff Kirvin]

Titanic, anyone?
That was the reference, yes. Keep in mind that I was talking about the whole smartphone market, not Palm. The smartphone market will most likely act as a rising tide, lifting all boats, Palm and WM alike.

[T-Man]

Oh, yes, smartphones...The smartphone will either act as a rising tide OR act as an iceberg and sink all boats...(you were referring to the rising tide as being good, right? Since the boats will most likely be lifted.)

[Unregistred]

I differentiate between Nokia phones and Palm/WM phones. I believe Palm/WM users make a conscious choice to use a PDA phone, and intend to install software, whereas Nokia users just buy the pretty/fancy phone.

If I am right, this means the market is much smaller than the larger phone market, and whenever some-one choses a PDA phone they will be choose between Palm and WM. I do not think a very small marketshare is sustainable, as this will affect network effects.

The market for video recorders were huge, but Betamax still lost out. Sometimes consumers chose definitively.

[T-Man]

I hope we never have to make The Hymn to the end of Smartphones (http://www.back-to-titanic.com/music/mp3/Titanic--Hymn-to-the-Sea.mp3). As I'm planning to get one someday.

[Gekko]

Titanic, anyone?

http://tinyurl.com/7zyog

[twrock]

For the life of me I can't figure out why people think it is "acceptable" for Palm to have 4% of the smartphone market. Why such low expectations? Why is it acceptable for Palm/pa1mOne/PalmSource to go from the heights they achieved in the PDA/smartphone market all the way down to being a "niche player" with 4% of the smartphone market.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, they screwed up! You had people making big salaries who were supposed to know how to lead and innovate and predict market trends and a whole miriad of other skills expected of a top CEO and management team. They blew it. And when someone finally notices that things are not going well, they give them a huge golden parachute so that they can bail out "gracefully."

4% of the smartphone market? That's supposed to make us happy?

And while I'm ranting, let me say again that Palm is dead without the PalmOS. I defy them to compete with the other players in the WinMob pool.

I can hear the conversation now:

"Hey, check out my new Palm smartphone running WinMob!"
"Yeah, I looked at the Palm, but I bought a Motorola/O2/Smart/Mio/dopod/i-mate/Sagem/SDA/SPV/Qtek/TSM/Voq/Adiovox/Sprint/Samsung instead."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"But mine has features x, y, & z that your Palm is missing."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"But mine cost $200 less."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"Dude, get a clue. Who cares what brand name is on your stupid phone. What does it do and how much did it cost?"

Palm better do whatever they can to keep PSRC alive. And that includes buying them back if necessary.

[JAmerican]

For the life of me I can't figure out why people think it is "acceptable" for Palm to have 4% of the smartphone market. Why such low expectations? Why is it acceptable for Palm/pa1mOne/PalmSource to go from the heights they achieved in the PDA/smartphone market all the way down to being a "niche player" with 4% of the smartphone market.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, they screwed up! You had people making big salaries who were supposed to know how to lead and innovate and predict market trends and a whole miriad of other skills expected of a top CEO and management team. They blew it. And when someone finally notices that things are not going well, they give them a huge golden parachute so that they can bail out "gracefully."

4% of the smartphone market? That's supposed to make us happy?

And while I'm ranting, let me say again that Palm is dead without the PalmOS. I defy them to compete with the other players in the WinMob pool.

I can hear the conversation now:

"Hey, check out my new Palm smartphone running WinMob!"
"Yeah, I looked at the Palm, but I bought a Motorola/O2/Smart/Mio/dopod/i-mate/Sagem/SDA/SPV/Qtek/TSM/Voq/Adiovox/Sprint/Samsung instead."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"But mine has features x, y, & z that your Palm is missing."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"But mine cost $200 less."
"Yeah, but mine's a Palm."
"Dude, get a clue. Who cares what brand name is on your stupid phone. What does it do and how much did it cost?"

Palm better do whatever they can to keep PSRC alive. And that includes buying them back if necessary.

LMAO!! That's funny. I have tried many different OS during my time and really have come to like all the ones I've tried. There were faults but all OSes have faults. My Sidekick had push email, multitasking (way better than Palms), Web Browser, Phone, games, but it was missing Multimedia.

Look at a comparitive review I did here at hiptop.com. I discussed Sidekick issues till I was banned for expressing my views for the UX to strongly. LOL. Which led me here.

http://hiptop.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18036

I currently own a Blackberry and it is so unstable, its amazing. I wonder why so many businesses use it. But out of all the devices, I've owned, the one that has crashed the least was my Sidekick. This is due to no third-party apps were allowed for download. Third-party apps are the reason for Problems on devices most of the time due to bloated or wrong code.

What I'm trying to say is that I have a feeling that if I try Windows Mobile that I will love it and hate it as well. There will be some benefits and some negative results from using the OS in comparison to Palm. There are people who feel WM is the "dark" side because of their own experiences. Since I have yet to experience Windows, I cannot listen to others accusations.

Make your own choices people. I've modded my battery to my UX one last time and I love it now. This will probably last me for some time, I hope.

JAmerican

[smoothjordan]

I've owned both Windows Mobile Devices (Hp 4355, HP RX-3715, and Dell Axim X30 Mid) and Palm Devices (SJ-20, Treo 90, Tungsten E, T3, T5, Treo 600/650) and I must say that as of now Palm is the superior OS for me. Windows is stable, but not quick/intuitive like palm. I hate the fact that I had to use third party software to close the app w.o going through all the menus to do so. I did love it's awesome multimedia power, but I have achieved all the same on my Palms as I did with my Windows Mobile devices. Don't get me wrong, I love them both, Palm just suites me better, and as long as Palm is around, I will be buying their devices - Period. I'm sure there are many more out there just like me, so Palm isn't going to die. I won't let it. **Runs and hides from all of Bill Gate's Henchmen currently trying to kill me**
Shep aka Smooth

[Alan G]

I do not think a very small marketshare is sustainable

Apple has a small marketshare, yet they have billions of dollars in the bank. I have to disagree. Just becase you have a small marketshare, that does not mean that you have to roll over to the market leader.

Palm may stop selling the Zire and the Tungsten handhelds, but the Treo and the LifeDrive will take their place. The Treo is a very good seller for Palm. That is because Palm one did their homework and designed a device that helps make people's lives easier. The LifeDrive will become Palm's mobile entertainment device that just happens to be a personal organizer as well.

All in all, I expect Palm to be around long after 2012.

Alan G

[Jeff Kirvin]

Hear hear, Alan.

[T-Man]

Apple has a small marketshare, yet they have billions of dollars in the bank. I have to disagree. Just becase you have a small marketshare, that does not mean that you have to roll over to the market leader.

Palm may stop selling the Zire and the Tungsten handhelds, but the Treo and the LifeDrive will take their place. The Treo is a very good seller for Palm. That is because Palm one did their homework and designed a device that helps make people's lives easier. The LifeDrive will become Palm's mobile entertainment device that just happens to be a personal organizer as well.
Thoguh, they shouldnt get rid of the Zires and Tungsten til the Mobile Mgr Series becomes more stable.
All in all, I expect Palm to be around long after 2012.

Alan G

:D

[twrock]

Apple has a small marketshare, yet they have billions of dollars in the bank. I have to disagree. Just becase you have a small marketshare, that does not mean that you have to roll over to the market leader.
(And this is an honest question, not just me trying to antagonize.) How small of a market share is sustainable for Palm? Is 4% of the smartphone market "sustainable"? And why should the investors be happy that Palm ended up as a niche player in a markets that they dominated?

... The Treo is a very good seller for Palm. That is because Palm one did their homework and designed a device that helps make people's lives easier. ...
Am I mistaken? Wasn't it Handspring that designed the Treo? My point is that I don't think Palm (PLMO) has been "leading" much lately. Too often their "innovations" are so fraught with problems that they end up with egg on their face when they should be able to crow about their superiority to whatever is being offerred by the WinMob camp. I wish they could get it right the first time. (And please, I hope nobody tries to claim that the T5 and LD didn't hit the market with problems that should have been addressed before they ever shipped.)

All in all, I expect Palm to be around long after 2012.
I sincerely hope so, if they are still using some version of the PalmOS. I love the PalmOS. It is the only reason why I do not yet own a PPC. If Palm moves to the WinMob camp as well, I'm sure I won't be buying any more Palms.

[Jeff Kirvin]

(And this is an honest question, not just me trying to antagonize.) How small of a market share is sustainable for Palm? Is 4% of the smartphone market "sustainable"?

Given that the smartphone market is more than 10 times bigger than the PDA market, 4% of the smartphone market is actually bigger, in terms of units sold, than 40% of the PDA market. Palm is actually growing, but in an even bigger market. The percentages are meaningless, look at the bottom line.

And why should the investors be happy that Palm ended up as a niche player in a markets that they dominated?

The market they once dominated is about to disappear. Nothing can stop that now. Traditional PDAs are fading away in the face of smartphones, tablets and media players. I'd be happy if I were an investor; few companies can sidestep from a dying market to a booming one as gracefully as Palm is doing it. Apple did, but that's all I can think of.

Am I mistaken? Wasn't it Handspring that designed the Treo? My point is that I don't think Palm (PLMO) has been "leading" much lately.

There ain't no PLMO no more, and the folks in charge of Handspring now run the show at PALM. So I think we can expect more Handspring-like behavior from the new Palm than the old PalmOne foolishness.

[Dolomite]

The market they once dominated is about to disappear. Nothing can stop that now. Traditional PDAs are fading away in the face of smartphones, tablets and media players. I'd be happy if I were an investor; few companies can sidestep from a dying market to a booming one as gracefully as Palm is doing it. Apple did, but that's all I can think of.


Couldn't it be that this is the exact reason why Sony got out of the market? It seems more plausible that they got out of this market due to the introduction of the PSP and the continued partnership with Sony-Ericsson in the mobile phone market, rather than by market rejection of their "Ill thought out bag of features" in their devices. It made no sense for them to pump more money into a dying market, even if their devices are among the elite of the sector.
Seems more like a testiment to a smart economic move rather than some engineering and design failure on the part of their devices.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Couldn't it be that this is the exact reason why Sony got out of the market? It seems more plausible that they got out of this market due to the introduction of the PSP and the continued partnership with Sony-Ericsson in the mobile phone market, rather than by market rejection of their "Ill thought out bag of features" in their devices. It made no sense for them to pump more money into a dying market, even if their devices are among the elite of the sector.
Seems more like a testiment to a smart economic move rather than some engineering and design failure on the part of their devices.

I'm sure that was a big factor. I never meant to imply otherwise. Reality is a tricky beast, and things rarely happen for only one reason, easily explained.

[archangel]

The PSP is loaded with former Clie technology. The video and MP3 playback is pretty much identical to how it worked on the Clie right down to the dumb file structure required to get video to work. I agree that the end of the Clie probably did have some part to do with Sony realizing they would rather put that energy into the phone market and their all in one multimedia device would be better suited to the video game market.

The Clie is dead, but part of it does live on in the PSP. Sony already added a web browser and I am betting they will give the PSP limited PDA functions at some point. Granted without a touch screen I will pass.

[smoothjordan]

^^ So that's why I like my PSP so much :) It's got Clie Technology :)