Tapwave discontinues Zodiac business

[Joel]

From Tapwave: "We are sorry to inform you that the Zodiac business was discontinued and service and support are no longer available as of July 25th 2005." [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1168)]

[tungsten t5]

your welcome joel. :) I just can't believe that they shutdown without saying anything! :(

[Joel]

You're welcome. I know what you mean. I even searched 1src for any past mention of this but there was nothing.

[tungsten t5]

here is a screenshot if they completely shutdown :(

http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/9487/tzsadness3ut.png

[Unreged]

This is where the one saying, 'All good things come to those who wait', does not apply, wait tooo long and you miss out grrrr ;_;.

[quasar]

These people are nuts! They have a great product, especially for a first-time product, that I think still is competative specs-wise even after almost 2 years in the market. I have a Zodiac, and there's almost nothing wrong with it! How can they do this? I wish they would give an explanation as to why they're closing down the business, because I doubt it's because of innovation or sales issues. If they released another zodiac, it would rock the marketplace like the first did. On the other hand, it doesn't say that tapwave is going out of business, just that the Zodiac line is kaput. They have mentioned in the past some vague details about future devices in the making, so perhaps they just need to preserve resources to finish the new device and it'll be in another line of products. I think tapwave has the right idea for making PDAs, and I probably wouldn't think twice about buying from them again, and I hope that earlier speculation that Tapwave is going to be a parts manufacturer and not a retailer aren't true. But I don't like how they told us when it happened. Usually when support for a product ends, there's a warning. I'm finding out in the 27th, 2 days after it ended... :(

[applejosh]

Bummer to hear. It does explain why some developers here were having problems getting their apps signed (or even getting responses from Tapwave), though.

[jjesusfreak01]

Bummer to hear. It does explain why some developers here were having problems getting their apps signed (or even getting responses from Tapwave), though.
It would be an extreme disservice to their customers to not release a generic DAA program for all Zodiacs, in my humble opinion. Im sure everyone agrees. I dont own a Zodiac, but I would suggest that you Zodiac owners make this move quickly so that you ask before they completely shut down.

[ydjk58]

TO make known here what has been said in the ongoing disscussion of this over at Tapland, people are thinking that perhaps Tapwave.com has been hacked and this may all just be an elaborte hoax. What seems fishy to me is services have been discontinued as of 2 days ago, why wouldn't they make an announcement ahead of time. Also, take notice on the navigation buttons at the top of the page, The have been moved down a few pixels from before, all except the home button. This looks like sloppy editing, perhaps this is just a sick joke done by a group of hackers who apparently forgot to overlook some important details. Also look at the spelling of the liquidtors, its wrong, go to www.tapland.com for more.

[JAmerican]

Looks like some major Palm licensees are discontinuing their lines. I think that Palm should take this as a sign. Sony and Tapwave are gone. I would have gotten a Tapwave if it had a keyboard. Tapwave and Sony have done a great job at getting Palm where it is now but with them out of the market, Palm has no one to model off of. I wonder what they will do? There is power in numbers but without the numbers there is no power.

JAmerican

[Gekko]

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates

[quasar]

They're not getting hacked. I sent an e-mail to them asking about it, such as why they did it, and got a response stating just what the press release on the site said. I doubt a cracker would crack the e-mail services, too.

[jjesusfreak01]

They're not getting hacked. I sent an e-mail to them asking about it, such as why they did it, and got a response stating just what the press release on the site said. I doubt a cracker would crack the e-mail services, too.
Us being the skeptical paranoid people we are, could you post the exact test please?

[Gekko]

TO make known here what has been said in the ongoing disscussion of this over at Tapland, people are thinking that perhaps Tapwave.com has been hacked and this may all just be an elaborte hoax. What seems fishy to me is services have been discontinued as of 2 days ago, why wouldn't they make an announcement ahead of time. Also, take notice on the navigation buttons at the top of the page, The have been moved down a few pixels from before, all except the home button. This looks like sloppy editing, perhaps this is just a sick joke done by a group of hackers who apparently forgot to overlook some important details. Also look at the spelling of the liquidtors, its wrong, go to www.tapland.com for more.

Yes - it's all part of a big conspiracy by MSFT to bring down the Palm economy.

[Vampire Lestat]

Hi tungsten T5,

Jeez, I am so sorry for you. You had a T5, bought a PPC then just recently came back to Palm with a Zodiac; and now they are bankrupt. Ouch.

Are you going to get another T5? You should.

[dragonsgames]

Is Palm loseing more companies than it is gaining?

[JAmerican]

Is Palm loseing more companies than it is gaining?
Pretty much. Palm OS is dead as Kirvin stated so now its up to Palm to develop and distribute Garnet. I have a feeling this was wrong move by Palm in general because Palm formally PalmOne is a hardware company with rights to modify the Palm OS. No why would a hardware company work with another hardware company in the use of the same OS. Would they compete against one another. This is what confused me.

JAmerican

[Dick Tracy]

PalmSource lost Tapwave but they did get LG recently, and LG sells a lot of cell phones (there are 8 pages of them at LG's main site). I suspect that the PDA, as it we have known it, is going the way of 35mm film. I can see potential for the PalmSource OS being used in LG's HomNet product group.

[applejosh]

I thought this was pretty much expected from a while ago (although the abruptness is a surprise). I thought I remembered Tapwave saying they weren't going to be producing new hardware units any more but would be working in more of a consulting role with other companies. Maybe I'm thinking of some other company.

[Vampire Lestat]

At 900$ CAD for a Treo 650 plus the very high cost for the monthly cell phone plan, the outrageously expensive data plan, the network access fee, taxes, etc... forget it. Besides, I don't like that little Treo 650 antenna.

[Alan G]

I just can't believe that they shutdown without saying anything!

They did. It was way back at the end of April. Over on Tapland.com, Scott Raulinaitis talked with Tapwave's Senior VP of Marketing, Byron Connell. Connell stated,

"Tapwave is starting to transition from offering Tapwave branded retail products to developing new co-branded products for OEM partners (i.e., other leading consumer electronic companies). These partners will be introducing future multimedia products based on both the Zodiac technology platform and Tapwave's next generation technologies."

You can read the entire thing at:

http://www.tapland.com/news_arc/?id=636&PHPSESSID=4fcdf3de308c1048a51f8f1bd50efa0b

And then I covered it in my Tech Talk podcast back on May 9th. You can listen to that podcast at: www.grassnet.net/podcast/2005_05_09.mp3

Alan G

[Demens]

OOOFFFFOORFOCKSSSSAKE!

I must be cursed or something with anything handheld related.
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92186

[wshwe]

Told you so. Tapwave will be completely gone in a few months.

[archangel]

Told you so. Tapwave will be completely gone in a few months.

Your kidding right. Most everyone saw this coming since day one. Doesn't change the fact that its a great PDA and will continue to be one of the best PDAs ever made. It was obvious they were not going to make it as a gaming device, but I give them credit for trying.

I do wish they would have given us a bit of a warning though about the shutdown coming today. There were probably people that would have liked to pick up nWeb while it was still available.

[dragonsgames]

Palm OS seems to be screwed for the moment, and I don't like it. Why can't we just run Palm? ;)

Unless Palm does something good soon, I will be switching to Pocket PC with an HTC Universal.

Pocket PC, can't believe I am saying that :(. Palm has more apps, is much faster, easier, and reliable. Maybe Palm will be like Apple, and start a "side business" and make something different. Would you have guessed Apple would be making the top selling MP3 player? We will be saying something like that about Palm soon...

We will have to just wait and see what the future, or fall (when Palm usually comes out with something new, and when the HTC Universal comes out) brings us... :)

[SonyStyle]

sad to see another licensee go but itwas predictable when tawave stuppfd producing new handhelds

[GadgetGuru]

If only Tapwave had not embraced the games market and targetted the business/consumer line instead with a more stramlined design, and had been in more stores, it could have survived... onder if they will indeed become an designer for PDA as they had stated in the past...

[Cyker]

This is not a surprise; Tapwave have been saying they're shifting their focus for ages, although the sudden announcement caugh me by surprise.

Still sucks 'tho; It's the second time this sort of thing has happened to me, the first being Sony of course :(

But now we see why copy protection and DRM are Bad Things - Unless Tapwave release their master keys or something, which frankly is never going to happen, all Zodiac owners with e-store downloaded games are screwed if they ever change device, and no more Zodiac-hardware apps will be able to be signed, and no more DAA's will be available. :eek: :(

Well, on the bright side this is the worst case scenario, but sadly to my mind it's the most likely case too. :( (It's things like this that make me boycott stuff XP and HalfLife 2...)

[AndrewP]

OOOFFFFOORFOCKSSSSAKE!

I must be cursed or something with anything handheld related.
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92186

No, it's me. I bought a Clie TH55 shortly before Sony withdrew. Then I bought a Zodiac a month or two back and Tapwave go titsup.com.

What shall I kill next?

Andrew

[quasar]

My inquiry to info@tapwave.com:

"Would you please explain to me why you ended the terriffic product line
of the Zodiac? What prompted you to terminate it? And will you make
future devices in another product line? Thanks

-Brian"

Tapwave's reply:

"We are sorry to inform you that the Zodiac business was discontinued and service and support are no longer available as of July 25th 2005.

Resources that may still be helpful to you can be found at: http://www.tapwave.com/resources and http://www.tapwave.com/support.

This includes links to websites where you can find a variety of useful tips and information as well as purchase: e-books; Audible books & magazines; Palm OS applications; Zodiac skins; and 3rd party Tapwave Certified games.

Additional products, accessories, and game cards may still be available at COMPUSA, Frys and J&R while supplies last.

We thank you for your past interest and support and apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused. If you have an outstanding claim with the company, Ueker & Associates will be contacting you shortly.

Sincerely,

The Tapwave Team"

[quasar]

Oh yeah, i have the 'curse', too. I bought a Clie TJ-27 a month before Sony left the US market, and a Zodiac just a couple of months ago. I've gotta work on this...

[evildude]

Its not a surprise, What did you guys think when they said thay were stopping the retail products and focusing on OEM? That they had dozens of clients lined up?

I said weeks ago in chat that theye were dead, and disco (discontinued) but you guys refused to belive. I've watched these pda companies from the beginning,. you have to ignore the press releases and watch the actuall activity, and add in a fair amount of pre-existing knowlege.

Plus, hard licencing the hardware to software apps (signing) is a development stopper.

[Dick Tracy]

I suspect that Tapwave was probably unable to meet terms of credit agreements, was unable to refinance or obtain new financing and is now being liquidated. A little research determined that Uecker Associates is a liquidator.

Some real business world for you gamers: Liquidation usually happens very suddenly in the eyes of those outside of the business. Insiders know terms and conditions (the rules) of credit facilities (hopefully) and are usually scrambling to meet a deadline to come up with money or face being shut down/locked out by the finance company(ies). This is very different than bankruptcy, where a business has the possibility to settle debts and re-emerge through the courts.

[asiayeah]

Bummer to hear. It does explain why some developers here were having problems getting their apps signed (or even getting responses from Tapwave), though.

Now, the developer site for Zodiac is no longer available. Where can we get the SDK for Tapwave Zodiac?

[palmato]

Frankly Tapwave was a gamble from day one, though I understand that its fans didn't perceive that way.
Among the many difficulties that a startup with a real product faces, they also had to fight the impalpable presence of the "PSP is coming" ghost. Had they introduced the Zodiac a couple of years before, maybe chances would have been better.
Also the initial choice of selling only by web wasn't a smart one.
On the other hand they are in good company. Nokia's gaming phone, for one.

Portable gaming is an attractive but difficult nut to crack, unless you are Sony of course. Pure PDA will have a hard time converting to gaming devices. Actually, they never will.
Pure Pda are becoming a niche market, phones (pda-phones) is where the money is. Whether we like it or not.

[Cyker]

What shocks me the most is that it looks like Tapwave are folding - As Alan says, most of us Zod'ers knew Tapwave was discontinuing the Zodiac in favour of focussing on other things, but they promised that support and signing would still be there.

However, because they have apparently folded, we will loose the signing and support which screws us over majorly :(

[CliePet]

Selective comments:
re: official announcement
Not surprising - has been predicted for some time, even before the April interview where they pre-announced the discontunuation.

re: DAAs
Should have got them while you could!
http://www.1src.com/forums/showpost.php?p=828187&postcount=27
(exactly 1 month ago -- always follow the sage advice on this BBS ;-)

re: Tapwave releasing DAAs signing technology &/or SDK to the public
I doubt they will do this for a number of reasons. I don't know what contractual obligations they have with PalmSource (the Tapwave API exposes proprietary PalmSource details more-or-less) and the DAA/signing technology is Tapwave unique technology. Whatever happens to the company, this is part of their "Intellectual Property" that some day they may want to sell.
[very similar to when Sony left the CLIE market - they released nothing]

re: redistributing the Tapwave SDK
Technically, you are still bound by the licensing terms. It is copyrighted material and the licensing terms include strict non-disclosure rules.
[also like the CLIE SDK - however people have mirrored it on the web in violation of the licensing agreement]
Overall it isn't useful without the "DAA" app for your specific machine (and in theory everyone with a "DAA" is a developer and has at least one copy of the SDK)

[GadgetGuru]

Since Tapwave is under liquidation, maybe Palm, Inc. should consider getting whatever intellectual properties Tapwave might have...most liquidated properties goes for a song (look at the original Napster)...Or maybe LG or someone else interested in the Palm OS platform, it will surely be cheaper to buy a platform that's already there than developing one in-houise, and it will be faster to market too...

[xMist]

It would be an extreme disservice to their customers to not release a generic DAA program for all Zodiacs, in my humble opinion. Im sure everyone agrees. I dont own a Zodiac, but I would suggest that you Zodiac owners make this move quickly so that you ask before they completely shut down.

Yeah, that certainly would be nice if they did, but they didn't. And their doors are shut. So, the only option would be for the Zodiac community to get together and crack the DAA, as has been suggested over at Tapland.

However, this is a two-headed issue. It would be an even greater disservice to their paying developers if they DID release a generic DAA:

I think that the folks who own the Tapwave intellectual property will not just release the private keys, since that would allow anyone to re-sign existing applications, generate DAAs, and break the copy protection for existing software. (For what it's worth, the signing tools themselves aren't anything special, in fact the oldest pre-beta SDKs used to include the tools! ...it's the private keys that really matter.)

I personally no longer have access to services or software that generates signatures, but I did make sure that these tools were still working and available, so that someone could continue to sign new software, and also continue to generate DAAs.

For those that understand the signing process, it would be foolish to continue to make software that required hardware signatures, since the store sites that generate the custom signatures for each purchase are also presumably going away. However, you could certainly still get basic app signatures for new applications, and sell or distribute them however you wished. (We always made sure that distribution models that didn't use the Tapwave store were possible -- good thing!) ...of course, now your copy protection will be only as good as on other PalmOS 5 devices.

Now what you should *really* be asking for is the sources for our most recent project, which was getting Linux up and running on the Zodiac. That's another way the hardware could live on -- running an open source OS.

--Bob (no longer a Tapwave employee)

[tungsten t5]

I rma'd my zodiac. So what do I do? i will get it back right? and I still have 10 months left on the warranty. What Do I do?

[jjesusfreak01]

Look at the last thread on the page.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2800/702/400/TLG.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2800/702/1600/TLG.jpg)

[archangel]

But now we see why copy protection and DRM are Bad Things - Unless Tapwave release their master keys or something, which frankly is never going to happen, all Zodiac owners with e-store downloaded games are screwed if they ever change device, and no more Zodiac-hardware apps will be able to be signed, and no more DAA's will be available. :eek: :(


This is something discussed by Tapwave owners all the time and it was something Kirvin touched on in podcasts. I really feel bad for anyone that invested a lot of money in the Tapwave store because now that software is locked into one device. You can't switch out Zods and you certainly can't take that software forward to a new device.

However, we have seen from programs like TCPMP and Yahm that digital signing is not always necessary so hopefully new software will continue to support the Zodiac.

The one thing I hope would happen (and it probably won't) is that someone like Palmgear might buy the rights to the Tapwave store and signing process and intergrate it into Palmgear. That way Zod owners can continue to get support for everything they bought at the Tapwave store.

One thing I am tired of in this thread is notion that this caught "most tapwave owners by surprise" or "we never expected them to stop supporting the tapwave". I know a lot of you get off on saying I told you so, but sorry the majority of Tapwave owners knew this was coming. We didn't think that somehow this device would magically just become a success all of a sudden after struggling since its launch. There are probably a few people in denial, but look through the treads at Tapland and you will see that most saw the writting on the wall months and months ago, but we were determined to enjoy our devices as long as possible since there is still nothing on the market that compares to the Zodiac. It wasn't a big shock when Sony left the PDA market and it certainly is no surprise Tapwave is bankrupt. The only thing I thought would happen is Tapwave would give us a small warning so people could download programs like nWeb before the store shut down. That didn't happen, but the rest was very expected.

[tungsten t5]

ok, we knew this was going to happen but we thought they would let us know in advance. Look, even customer support is still running and they don't know about tapwave shutting down.

[dragonsgames]

For me it is the company goes right before I am about to buy one of their products... :(

I was looking at the Zodiac as a back-up PDA, and also to play games, when I saw this...

Then I was going to get a TH55, which I ended up getting a NX80, before Sony made, the "announcement"

[Dick Tracy]

I rma'd my zodiac. So what do I do? i will get it back right? and I still have 10 months left on the warranty. What Do I do?
You wait to hear from the Liquidators as they now have possession and control of the business.

[Cyker]

However, we have seen from programs like TCPMP and Yahm that digital signing is not always necessary so hopefully new software will continue to support the Zodiac.

Well, someone allegedly figured out a way of accesing SOME of the Zod's more exotic hardware without requiring signing, but this is not common knowledge and I have yet to see any concrete code on the How.

One thing I am tired of in this thread is notion that this caught "most tapwave owners by surprise" or "we never expected them to stop supporting the tapwave". I know a lot of you get off on saying I told you so, but sorry the majority of Tapwave owners knew this was coming. We didn't think that somehow this device would magically just become a success all of a sudden after struggling since its launch. There are probably a few people in denial, but look through the treads at Tapland and you will see that most saw the writting on the wall months and months ago, but we were determined to enjoy our devices as long as possible since there is still nothing on the market that compares to the Zodiac. It wasn't a big shock when Sony left the PDA market and it certainly is no surprise Tapwave is bankrupt. The only thing I thought would happen is Tapwave would give us a small warning so people could download programs like nWeb before the store shut down. That didn't happen, but the rest was very expected.
Well I for one was very shocked when this announcement came.

Yes, I am aware they announced that they were going to discontinue the Zodiac - This is fairly well known (Esp. with the bargain basement prices!).
However, most of us were under the impression that the company was doing this to switch its focus to OEM hardware with Tapwave branding.
There was even a press release about it, which included several statements pledging and reassuring us that support for existing Zodiacs would continue for some time, and that application signing would still be available.

This is not what has happened - Tapwave has, basically, gone under, and in their exodus they have gone and pretty much hacked off our legs from under us.
I was waiting for LJP v1.0 to be fixed and signed - It was just weeks/months away! Now I will be stuck on LJZ 0.7 forever... And no more ScummVM updates! Or Transport Tycoon, until they finish the Palm-specific version, which won't be as good...
THAT is why I am really pissed off at this... my fault in a way; I took a gamble with the DRM and this is the price. I should have stuck to my complete and total boycott of all DRM... (Which will become hard with all the idiots buying DRM PCs, monitors, harddisks, video and sound cards etc.)

But my point is, Tapwave have shown us is how NOT to do a pull-out.
I feel for them - They had many good people, but the way we've just been cut off really stings, and for people like me who were dropped by Sony scant months earlier this is just rubbing chili powder in the wounds...

Sony's withdrawl was much cleaner and far more professional:
The initial announcement was obviously a huge shock, but it gave us time to prepare (e.g. wget'ing the entire developer website, grabbing all the drivers and grabbing backup units in the case of DanT and others ;)).
So when the fateful day did come about when they shut their doors, most people were set and it was just the outpouring of angst, grief and general KAAAAAHN!-type stuff that was left.
And heck, Sony are still honouring warrenties on the last few units!
And of course we didn't have to worry about locked hardware with Sony... they never disclosed their deeper APIs but they didn't block us from finding out ourselves either, and so we have people like CP, dg, Sharky and ivan to carry on the support.
The Zodiac's future now rests soley on the signing system and whether it will be released or can be broken - If it can't it will stagnate, with people being forced to choose between updated programs with more features and bugfixes, or old buggy ones which can use the Zod's hardware.

This is a worst-case scenario that we have hit here, and in my mind it should have been handled so much better. This situation is almost as stupid as that cockup the FIA made at the Indianapolis F1 Grand Prix...

[Spiral]

PalmSource lost Tapwave but they did get LG recently, and LG sells a lot of cell phones (there are 8 pages of them at LG's main site). I suspect that the PDA, as it we have known it, is going the way of 35mm film. I can see potential for the PalmSource OS being used in LG's HomNet product group.
I'm betting LG's approach to palm will be similar to Samsung's, just releasing a few smartphones with palm while almost all their models use their own propriety operating system.

[jjesusfreak01]

Sony's withdrawl was much cleaner and far more professional:
The initial announcement was obviously a huge shock, but it gave us time to prepare (e.g. wget'ing the entire developer website, grabbing all the drivers and grabbing backup units in the case of DanT and others ;)).
So when the fateful day did come about when they shut their doors, most people were set and it was just the outpouring of angst, grief and general KAAAAAHN!-type stuff that was left.
And heck, Sony are still honouring warrenties on the last few units!
And of course we didn't have to worry about locked hardware with Sony... they never disclosed their deeper APIs but they didn't block us from finding out ourselves either, and so we have people like CP, dg, Sharky and ivan to carry on the support.
If you remember, Sony was extremely graceful. They stopped development, and then later announced that on Christmas, I believe, they would discontinue developer support. When that date came, there was very little conversation on it, and it passed by. Most of the developer docs are still available somewhere, and all of the updates are available on Sonys support site. If you would believe it, Sony specific development has significantly increased since Sony left the PDA market. The reason is that Sony device development was never dependent on Sonys actions. The problem now is that Zodiac specific development was so closely tied to the company itself that when Tapwave steps out it just about stops.

[CliePet]

re: "cracking" the Tapwave DRM and other similar discussion
Cracking copy protection logic can get you into a lot of legal trouble, especially in the USA where the DMCA applies.

The legal situation hasn't changed. Someone still owns the technology, even though the products aren't being made/sold/supported.
(eg: I have DRM protected DVDs that have been discontinued, but the DVD copy protection has not reverted to the public domain)

You may say the company is not in a position to sue you, and that is a good *guess* - however the assets can be purchased, even if they go through bankruptcy, and who knows what other legal liability you can open up.
[a clever lawyer may try to sue you blaming you for the downfall of the Zodiac product line ;-]
-----
My advice is to let it die. Most people bought into the Tapwave product with full knowledge of the DRM limitations. Many people raised red flags on the "signing" policies of the company, and you had to put trust in the company - more than any other PDA-like consumer electronics platform.

Let it die, and use it as an example of how not to invent a "new paradigm", and how companies should not deal with developers and customers alike.
It remains a nice regular Palm device.
(end soap box)

[T-Man]

Personally, I think the Zodiacs are ugly. :o (dont hurt me!)

@Vampire Lestat: The 650's antenna is better than those long 'sticks on some of the older cells ;)

Timm

[Dick Tracy]

This is not what has happened - Tapwave has, basically, gone under, and in their exodus they have gone and pretty much hacked off our legs from under us. ... But my point is, Tapwave have shown us is how NOT to do a pull-out.
I feel for them - They had many good people, but the way we've just been cut off really stings, and for people like me who were dropped by Sony scant months earlier this is just rubbing chili powder in the wounds...
I'm not sure that Tapwave had control of when and how to pull out. We'll have to wait to hear the full story.

[Cyker]

<rant>
Well, WRT the DRM cracking I wouldn't even know where to start.

I definitely wouldn't leave it if I could crack it because for me, the only purpose of my Zod is as a games/multimedia machine - To me, it's no use as a PDA because I already have a TH55 which does PDA stuff much better.

Currently the most used programs I use on my Zod2 are ScummVM, LJZ (Would be LJP if I had a DAA!) and ny Transport Tycoon - ALL of which need to be signed to run in their full mode, otherwise I may as well have bought a friggin' LD or just run them on my TH55!

The worst thing is selling it to a dev would be pointless because they wouldn't be able to use their DAA on it, and I doubt I'd be able to get a decent price for it beyond that because once you strip out all the exotic hardware, the Zod just becomes an average Palm...

This is one of those situations where I feel the Law is wrong, but I don't have the money to fix it :(
Ho hum, I can only hope some enterprising cracker will do us the favour...
Either that or Tapwave have some sort of contingency for the signing stuff... but if they're really going bankrupt they probably don't care about such things.

The sad thing is, I bet no one will learn from this - The way computers are heading is to fully DRM'd systems.
Programs will be like Half-Life 2, requiring server call backs. Hell, the successor to DVDs will probably have similar requirements.
Already we have DRM implementations for PCs at BIOS level, and also DRM for HD video content which will stop you watching a DVD you own or even a brodcast program at full resolution (or at all?) if you don't own a PC, monitor, videocard and operating system with DRM crap in it.

And the majority of people will *buy* this crap, making it mainstream, then those who are left will be forced to miss out or kiss more of their rights goodbye...
And we have lost so many already...

[sdfgsdfgsdf]

re: "cracking" the Tapwave DRM and other similar discussion
Cracking copy protection logic can get you into a lot of legal trouble, especially in the USA where the DMCA applies.


As was mentioned earlier there is a way to use the TwGfx* and TwInput* (actually, only TwGfxOpen and TwInputOpen are protected) without signing the app. This has nothing to do with the actual copy protection. Or, at least, it does not crack the DRM system to the state when it is possible to violate the copy protection. Something like device-agnostic DAA.

My question is simple. Is it legal to publish the instructions/source code/binary for such kind of tool?

[jjesusfreak01]

but if they're really going bankrupt they probably don't care about such things.That is, unless someone sues them, which could easily happen with what they are doing. If they havent paid off all of their money yet, they may be forced to give it to some of their customers.

[CliePet]

> My question is simple. Is it legal to publish the instructions/source code/binary for such kind of tool?

There is no list of "legal" things in this world (and things like this require you to lose a lawsuit first before fairly calling it "illegal").

However, as you describe it it sounds like it should be a "fair use" of reverse engineering under the DMCA: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html (USA law, stricter than many countries)
In particular section (f) - "... may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs..."

[PDASpecialists]

http://www.tapwave.com/store.html

The store appears to be there still. I started by looking at a google cached page, and then clicking on links to see if any of them were still there.

[sj22Gam3r]

None of you will remember me but i am an old cliesource user. I left when we merged with palm one city because i didnt like the change. I bought my sj22 and then sony closed i have owned my zodiac for almost 9 months now and it broke yesterday now i cant RMA i dont know what to do but it is sad that after 2 years of the zodiac being out there is not one single device out there in the palm os world that is better than it it just goes to show what a great device it was R.I.P. Tapwave you will live on in our hearts forever.
Sincerely,
Old name: sj-22gam3r
New name:Zodiacfreak

[dragonsgames]

@sj-22gam3r
I think I remember you...
I do agree with you on the Palm One City merge... :(

[Tam Hanna]

I read that the Joyce developer still signs apps!

[Cyker]

Really? That's friggin' awesome if it's true, but for how long will that stay...?

[piriec]

I am so unhappy. My Zod2 was having calibration problems and they were going to replace it. I sent to them on July 26 and they signed for it and now I don't know if I will ever get a replacement. I've had it since Feb and loved it. Now what should I get. Anyone have suggestions for a replacement? I love gaming, I use the date book, and read lots of ebooks, and of course syncing with outlook. Thanks for listening

[ackmondual]

I am so unhappy. My Zod2 was having calibration problems and they were going to replace it. I sent to them on July 26 and they signed for it and now I don't know if I will ever get a replacement. I've had it since Feb and loved it. Now what should I get. Anyone have suggestions for a replacement? I love gaming, I use the date book, and read lots of ebooks, and of course syncing with outlook. Thanks for listening

Try getting a T|T3 on ebay? I gotta say the T3 is working quite well for me at least

[strider_mt2k]

Sorry guys. My condolences.
It sucks they pulled the plug so abruptly.

There are a couple of seats open at the Handera/Clie table, and we'll buy the first round.

"Make it one for my baby, and one more for the road."

[T-Man]

Try getting a T|T3 on ebay? I gotta say the T3 is working quite well for me at least

Yes, the T3 was a wonderful PDA, and still miss it(see sig) Now, I almost cant imagine why I sold it, and I know I'll probably never get one again... :(
But my LifeDrive is going well and I love it just as much as I did my T3(the small size would've been nice for school...)

[piriec]

THanks for the ideas. I have been toying with the idea of getting the lifedrive but was a little concerned with the mixed reviews. I had a refurbished T2 before the Zod and loved it, but wanted more space. So the life drive seems like a dream, unless it really has all the glitches i have read about.