1SRC Podcast ThirtyThree

[Jeff Kirvin]

WARNING: While no more caffiene than usual was used in the making of this podcast, you couldn't tell by listening.
PXA Clocker and my 312MHz experience
New Pocket Tunes and new AeroPlayer
iTunes and podcasts for the T5
This week's 1SRC Editorial and people that don't get it.
Palm's new logo
WM Treo: fact or fiction? How about a Cobalt Treo?
Why I think PSRC is dead and/or irrelevant. Yeah, I'm ticked off at them. Why aren't you?
The three mobile form factors [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1155)]

[tungsten t5]

I wont be able to listen to this until tomarrow, but it sounds like a good one. Jeff, I thought extra caffeine was neccessary for proper podcasts? without caffeine you'd be even more off topic :)

Be back tomarrow to post about it.

-mitch

[JAmerican]

I keep my brightness @ 1% because of my sensitive eyes. It also helped my UX battery. Ever since I switched to a TH55 battery on my UX, the power has been phenominal.

JAmerican

[tungsten t5]

Does the Zodiac still have the biggest battery? (or should I say, batteries)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Does the Zodiac still have the biggest battery? (or should I say, batteries)

Yes, but NVFS devices tend to last longer because they don't have to keep RAM refreshed. The Zodiac 1 might be able to keep up with an NVFS E2, but the Zodiac 2 burns a lot of power keeping that 128MB going.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Like I alluded to in the 'cast, battery capacity is just one facet of battery life. You can also get longer life from better CPU management, persistent storage and more efficient screens.

[JAmerican]

Does the Zodiac still have the biggest battery? (or should I say, batteries)

But no keyboard, great browser or a lot of software compared to the CLIEs and Palms.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

HA! We can use purchased music with Microsoft's Janus technology, but many recent Pocket PCs can't! http://tinyurl.com/dmaa5

[JAmerican]

LOL. BTW, what about the clamshell form-factor. :( Hmmm.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

LOL. BTW, what about the clamshell form-factor. :( Hmmm.
You've heard, I assume, about the new Sony U series clamshell to compete with the Flybook? Maybe that should be your next mobile computer instead of the HTC Universal...

[JAmerican]

You've heard, I assume, about the new Sony U series clamshell to compete with the Flybook? Maybe that should be your next mobile computer instead of the HTC Universal...

What??? Where do you see this? BTW, if its a laptop, forget it. Its too big to carry around no matter how much smaller it is then other laptops.

JAmerican

[Jeff Kirvin]

What??? Where do you see this? BTW, if its a laptop, forget it. Its too big to carry around no matter how much smaller it is then other laptops.
Dude, have you seen a U in person? If you think that's too big, we must have differing standards of what we'll carry around.

[JAmerican]

Dude, have you seen a U in person? If you think that's too big, we must have differing standards of what we'll carry around.

I was referring to the Flybook. Its too big. The U that I saw on the internet looks like a reasonable size. Where did you see a clamshell U though?

JAmerican

[MortDeRire]

Cool Podcast ... Jeff ... decaf ... Jeff ... decaf ...

[JAmerican]

Cool Podcast ... Jeff ... decaf ... Jeff ... decaf ...

How about Peppermint Tea or NON-Caffinated Tea. Caffine is bad for you. It is a drug. Luckily for me, I have an immediate reaction to caffine so I don't eat or drink it (I get immediate headaches).

JAmerican

[jjesusfreak01]

HA! We can use purchased music with Microsoft's Janus technology, but many recent Pocket PCs can't! http://tinyurl.com/dmaa5
Thats why I have a Creative Zen Micro in the mail coming. Full Janus support for both subscription and regular DRMed music. There are about ten of them, most of them are accessible from WMP10 (MS got this right, I dont care whaat people say). Not only that, but as you say, there are two subscription services that you can use (Rhapsody and Napster). Why would anyone stick with iTunes?

[Alan G]

Ok, while I may be a geek (three devices, a keyboard, and a laptop) at least I don't co-host a podcast called "Maximum Geek". (Yes, I really carry all that junk with me. It's and addiction.) I've only been a guest on that show. (Three devices!)

Anyway, Jeff, it was another great podcast. Don't worry about the tea - IT guys are aways full tilt.

Alan G

[GadgetGuru]

OT: Good that the Palm community could call their show Podcast, like all main stream media do. Those in the Windows world go around by such monickers as blogcasts, thoughtcasts, and everything else just to avoid glorifying Apple's market-leading products...

Am I glad, or else..we will be dealing with Grasscast, LoyalCast, PAcast, and Jeffcast.... :)

as to podcast #33, haven't listened to it yet... still downloading on my slow dial-up line...

[Lance]

Thats why I have a Creative Zen Micro in the mail coming. Full Janus support for both subscription and regular DRMed music. There are about ten of them, most of them are accessible from WMP10 (MS got this right, I dont care whaat people say). Not only that, but as you say, there are two subscription services that you can use (Rhapsody and Napster). Why would anyone stick with iTunes?There is a huge legal difference between iTunes and subscription services, such as Rhapsody or Napster. After you purchase a song from iTunes, you own the song just like you own the songs when you purchase a CD. Therefore, you can legally listen to the song until your life here on earth is over.

With a subscription service, you can only listen to the song legally while you subscribe to the service. Once you quit subscribing to the service, you are no longer legally entitled to listen to the music you downloaded while your subscription was active. Now, whether music companies do anything about this or not depends. I mean I do not see movie companies up in arms about movie channels available through cable. However, we will just have to wait and see.

Looking at the bigger picture, if subscription services offer the right service at the right price, it might actually prove to be a steadier form of income for the music industry. They will be relying on a large number of continuous monthly royalties from subscriptions instead of relying on money from major album releases.

Anyway, just my two cents...

Thanks,
Lance

[Alan G]

Those in the Windows world go around by such monickers as blogcasts, thoughtcasts, and everything else just to avoid glorifying Apple's market-leading products...

Am I glad, or else..we will be dealing with Grasscast, LoyalCast, PAcast, and Jeffcast....

LOL! That was good.

[jonquirk]

Jeff,

You said in the podcast you were managing your T5's display brightness with Full Power. AFAIK this program lets you tweak the voltage warnings; I didn't realise it did anything else. Am I wrong or did you mean to say the name of another utility for backlight control?

I used Energy Dimmer on my T2 which let me go from full on all the way down to completely off but the T2 has now died. I had to get an updated version to run on my new E2. To my disappointment this only alters the backlight over the same range as the stock utility, which isn't anywhere near enough for night use. The writer, Daniel Seifert (79bmedia Support Team), said that the range of adjustment on the T2 was a fluke but I hold out the hope of finding a utility that will give me back that degree of control. Can you help, please?

[archangel]

But no keyboard, great browser or a lot of software compared to the CLIEs and Palms.

JAmerican

Well you are right about the built in keyboard anyway. I definitely have more software that works corectly with my Tapwave than any Clie I owned and nWeb is a very good browser.

As far as the podcast, I thought it was a pretty good one. I also use my PDA with the brightness turned down low. Especially at night. Only time I turn it up is outside in the sunlight since these screens can be hard to see outside. I agree on the logo. I could imagine it being designed a bit better, but overall it is something I will get used to. I would much rather have the orange logo on a Treo than the Palmone logo. I also agree that 312 is plenty of processor. My Tapwave and my Clie NX80 ran fine on a 200mhz processor so I don't think 400+ is really necessary for anything, but maybe playing video.

As far as DRM music, there is no way I would ever buy any DRM protected songs or copy proteced CDs for that matter so whether the Zodiac is supported is a non issue. I got a bunch of free tracks from Sony and still remember my disbelief at the fact I couldn't use them on my Clie since I didn't have a stupid magic gate memory stick. On top of that when I bought my PSP I still couldn't use them on it because Sony for some reason doesn't support memory stick Pro with their own DRM.

Bottom line DRM sucks. I will rip my own CDs and listen to them on whatever device I want. I agree the iTunes DRM is easier to deal with, but I still don't want to deal with having to have AAC compatible devices. Changing them to MP3s doesn't work either. They are already compressed to 128kbps AAC so switching them to MP3 is really going to effect the sound. My ears can hear the artifacts. I rip at 192 VBR for this reason.

[soccrnj80]

Great podcast Jeff!! I liked hearing about the new treo, thats why I switched to sprint, they are always the ones with "exclusive rights" at first. I love my 650 so much, Jeff you gotta get one, you don't know what you're missing. I actually returned my lifedrive because my treo 650 does everything I want it to do, and I realize that I fall into one of the 3 groups you talked about. Your audio quality is very good, ya sure your not using a mac and not telling us? I liked how you talked about the palm/apple coincidences. I said in the chat room the other night what Steve Jobs said about os x and intel switch, "that the soul of the mac is not the hardware, it's the os." Glad you reitterated that, because as "simple" and "un-multitasking" as "they" say our os is, it's the simplicity and elegance that makes palm, "palm" and it does what we need and want. The whole namechange people needed to hear, it's more significant than most realize. GREAT PODCAST as usual.

[Surur_]

soccrnj80, so you returned your lifedrive (like many others). You are not as crazy as I thought.

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

I was referring to the Flybook. Its too big. The U that I saw on the internet looks like a reasonable size. Where did you see a clamshell U though?

JAmerican
Check Engadget and JKontherun

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff,

You said in the podcast you were managing your T5's display brightness with Full Power. AFAIK this program lets you tweak the voltage warnings; I didn't realise it did anything else. Am I wrong or did you mean to say the name of another utility for backlight control?

I used Energy Dimmer on my T2 which let me go from full on all the way down to completely off but the T2 has now died. I had to get an updated version to run on my new E2. To my disappointment this only alters the backlight over the same range as the stock utility, which isn't anywhere near enough for night use. The writer, Daniel Seifert (79bmedia Support Team), said that the range of adjustment on the T2 was a fluke but I hold out the hope of finding a utility that will give me back that degree of control. Can you help, please?


Yes, newer versions of FullPower allow you to reduce the minimum brightness on the T5.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Great podcast Jeff!! I liked hearing about the new treo, thats why I switched to sprint, they are always the ones with "exclusive rights" at first. I love my 650 so much, Jeff you gotta get one, you don't know what you're missing. I actually returned my lifedrive because my treo 650 does everything I want it to do, and I realize that I fall into one of the 3 groups you talked about. Your audio quality is very good, ya sure your not using a mac and not telling us? I liked how you talked about the palm/apple coincidences. I said in the chat room the other night what Steve Jobs said about os x and intel switch, "that the soul of the mac is not the hardware, it's the os." Glad you reitterated that, because as "simple" and "un-multitasking" as "they" say our os is, it's the simplicity and elegance that makes palm, "palm" and it does what we need and want. The whole namechange people needed to hear, it's more significant than most realize. GREAT PODCAST as usual.


Thanks. I know I'll love the Treo, but since Sprint only lets me upgrade my phone once every two year with a discount, I'll wait for the EVDO version. Broadband in a Treo! w00t!

[soccrnj80]

Surur,
Thanks for the compliment, I think. Please don't start flaming again. The lifedrive was very cool, just not for me. I am more a treo person, and ipod. It is a very innovative device, and I think it is doing great for palm, actually I know. The salesman at compusa told me that they are selling very well, I asked him how the ipaq 4700 was, cause I played around with it, he said what Jeff said, it is by far the most returned pda that they sell. He was actually surprised I was returning the lifedrive. Look, lets stick to the subject of this thread. It's about the podcast. No flaming, I am over it, as many others are.

[soccrnj80]

I hear ya Jeff about them letting you upgrade, but I have no self control when it comes to palms/treos. I will guarantee you I will upgrade. I cannot imagine really them improving the 650, it is AWESOME. I mean I'd love more memory, possibly wifi, but with evdo it's not necessary, heck I very happy with pcs vision, I connect at 140 kbps most of the time. That is CRAZY that the samsung ppc goes to voice mail if you have wifi turned on, see thats why our treo is so great, it does what it needs to do right, no compromises. Looking very forward to the next treo. This is one of the longest devices I've held on to, I am an upgrade freak, been over 7 months, still going strong.

[soccrnj80]

Although the tungsten t7 is making me salivate, God I got a problem...

[Surur_]

Cool. Its just that it did not really make sense to buy two cutting edge devices for use by the same person, that are so similar in functionality. It makes more sense to buy a lifedrive and a small bluetooth phone, or as you chose just the Treo 650.

Peace.

Surur

[Vampire Lestat]

Hi Jeff,

PalmSource is not irrelevant and OS6 is not dead. PalmSource is continuing the development of Palm OS on a Linux kernel, and they will will continue to sell it to Palm Inc. Palm Inc. has a 4 year deal with them that requires that PalmSource meet certain OS milestones. Palm OS over Linux will be powered by the existing Palm OS 6 APIs. Even though PalmSource is now obligated to remove the Palm reference in their company name within the next 4 years, they will still make Palm OS for Palm Inc. Palm Inc will continue to tweak Palm OS, but nothing more. Also, Palm OS 6.5 (or 7.0) based on a Linux kernel will not for mobile phones; it will contain code to ensure an optimal experience for phone users while continuing to be a handheld OS. Palm OS is expanding, not contracting.

As for the Palm representative for the boards, I agree with you. For the developer support, remember that PalmSource offers a free Palm OS developer suite to the community. But granted, keeping developers informed of any and all OS changes (and how to adapt their programs) is important. However, when companies go through many staff changes and corporate changes, you have to expect that priorities are sometimes confused and errors occur.

PalmSource (to be soon renamed) = Microsoft
Palm Inc. = HP, Dell, etc.

[Vampire Lestat]

Also...

The Tungsten X at 312 mhz will be less able to play some full screen movies than the T5. However, users will be able to safely overclock from 312 mhz to 416mhz.

[tk__421]

Also...

The Tungsten X at 312 mhz will be less able to play some full screen movies than the T5. However, users will be able to safely overclock from 312 mhz to 416mhz.


You guys still believe in that thing?


That picture was a fake. It was proven so a while ago in a French forum. You can clearly see that the name Tungsten XX was pasted on the device.


I also don't believe it because I think that the rumors of an upcomming Zire 73 with Cobalt will come true in the Fall. Somehow I get the feeling that the LifeDrive will be the last Garnet device. But maybe I am just daydreaming?


I will test drive the hx4700 next week. If I can draw on it confortably with Pocket Artist and write handwritten notes with Phatpad, then I will keep it. Otherwise I will just wait for the next Palm. The LifeDrive was just too buggy for me, and its screen too hideous for a video buff like me.


I still want my VGA Cobalt Clie!

[Surur_]

Tk_421, I wonder if you would not be happier trying a Dell. People seem less happy with the HP 4705 (which is a quirky unit (like lthe LD?)) than the Loox 720 or Dell Axim x50v. I would not want you to get a bad impression of the OS due to a particularly difficult device.

Of course the HP has that lovely screen...

Surur

[Vampire Lestat]

Do NOT, I repeat... DO NOT buy the hx4700!

The TouchPad is a monumental joke. The unit is too big and the battery life is dismal.

The T5 is a far superior device to anything out there. However, if you are really into Windows Mobile, buy the hx2750. I own one and it is good. Not as good at the marvelous T5 mind you, but it is good.

[applejosh]

I heard the battery life on the hx4700 was actually pretty good (better than the Axim). I do think the touchpad is a silly idea (I'm sure the marketing department liked it), but the screen is pretty good with the little time I actually played with one in the store. When my rx3715 dies (again), I'll probably get an Axim. I've heard some bad things about the hx4700. And might as well go cheaper if you're going to have to replace it soon after the warranty. Don't know what I'll do when the T5 dies (again). I'm hoping this particular refurb will last the rest of the year.

Peace.

[Jeff Kirvin]

PalmSource is not irrelevant and OS6 is not dead. PalmSource is continuing the development of Palm OS on a Linux kernel, and they will will continue to sell it to Palm Inc. Palm Inc. has a 4 year deal with them that requires that PalmSource meet certain OS milestones. Palm OS over Linux will be powered by the existing Palm OS 6 APIs. Even though PalmSource is now obligated to remove the Palm reference in their company name within the next 4 years, they will still make Palm OS for Palm Inc. Palm Inc will continue to tweak Palm OS, but nothing more. Also, Palm OS 6.5 (or 7.0) based on a Linux kernel will not for mobile phones; it will contain code to ensure an optimal experience for phone users while continuing to be a handheld OS. Palm OS is expanding, not contracting.
Listen to the cast again. The comany formerly known as PalmSource isn't as involved as you think. They'll probably power a far-future Treo, but that's it. They have no place in the handheld computing market anymore.

[Jeff Kirvin]

That picture was a fake. It was proven so a while ago in a French forum. You can clearly see that the name Tungsten XX was pasted on the device.

I also don't believe it because I think that the rumors of an upcomming Zire 73 with Cobalt will come true in the Fall.

Show me the link on the T7 being fake, because it looked damn convincing to me. Remember, the early pics of the T5 and the original TT were widely "proved" to be fakes before release as well.

And if you think Cobalt will ship in anything, ever, then I wasn't clear enough in my podcast. Cobalt is dead. Let go and move on. Garnet is Palm OS.

[intellidryad]

Best podcast in weeks :) And I like your humur. (no, more caffiene next time :D )

First, about copying podcasts from iTunes to palm. Jeff figured out how to do it, but in too many clicks. Don't use the right mouse button, instead, open up your memory card in explorer/finder and simply drag the file you want(music and podcast alike) over to your card. Although iTunes might freeze up untill the file transfer is complete(don't know why), but it's still simpler. Drag and Drop is king!

By the way, I, too have the backlight set at the lowest minimum on my NX73 to conserve power, although it's still a little too bright to me (I also have sensitive eyes).

[Jeff Kirvin]

Drag and drop. Cool. Hadn't thought of that, but that is the way Apple tends to do things.

[JAmerican]

Check Engadget and JKontherun

OMG!! The UX lives on. Remember when rumors circulated about another Sony CLIE type device coming out that would replace the TH but looked somewhat like the UX, I bet you this is it. The UX lives on!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

JAmerican

[Vampire Lestat]

Hi Jeff,

If PalmSource is no longer making Palm OS for handhelds, who will? Palm Inc does not own the rights to Palm OS (not yet anyways), and didn't Colligan say that he wants Palm Linux on his devices? If so, who will make it? Palm Inc? Will we end up with both PalmSource and Palm Inc working on Palm OS Linux?

Also, PalmSource is not working on "Linux Mobile". They are working on PALM OS with a Linux kernel. They are not going to start selling some Linux version for smartphones and not supply Palm Inc with a handheld version of Palm OS.

Palm Inc is profitable. Do you actually think they will roll over and die because PalmSource is going to only make a mobile phone version of Palm OS? That is crazy. Do you actually think that Palm Inc. will wait more than 4-5 years for a handheld version of Palm OS for Linux, and that they will simply tweak OS 5 for the next 5 years?

[Jeff Kirvin]

If PalmSource is no longer making Palm OS for handhelds, who will? Palm Inc does not own the rights to Palm OS (not yet anyways), and didn't Colligan say that he wants Palm Linux on his devices? If so, who will make it? Palm Inc? Will we end up with both PalmSource and Palm Inc working on Palm OS Linux?

Also, PalmSource is not working on "Linux Mobile". They are working on PALM OS with a Linux kernel. They are not going to start selling some Linux version for smartphones and not supply Palm Inc with a handheld version of Palm OS.

Palm Inc is profitable. Do you actually think they will roll over and die because PalmSource is going to only make a mobile phone version of Palm OS? That is crazy. Do you actually think that Palm Inc. will wait more than 4-5 years for a handheld version of Palm OS for Linux, and that they will simply tweak OS 5 for the next 5 years?

Okay, one more time, with feeling...

PalmSource no longer does any code maintenance on Garnet or Cobalt. This is why Cobalt is dead, and why Garnet is effectively in the hands of Palm. While PSRC still owns Garnet on paper, Palm is for all practical purposes the developer of Garnet from now on.

Eventually, if PSRC survives, they will ship a version of Linux that looks like Cobalt. If they do, Palm will likely transition to it for their Treo line, possible their media players as well. By then they will have stopped making PDAs as we know them. And yes, they will continue to tweak Garnet as needed until then. Cobalt or anything else for that matter doesn't really do anything they need to do that their version of Garnet doesn't do already. Garnet meets Palm's needs.

By 2008, most of us that use HVGA tablet-style PDAs will be using mini Tablet PCs running Longhorn, Linux or OS X.

Is all that clear?

[Vampire Lestat]

Jeff,

Numerous times in your Podcast you mentioned that PalmSource is irrelevant now. Yet, you are predicting that Palm Inc will eventually only make Treos with Palm Linux. So how can PSource be irrelevant?

I strongly disagree with your prediction that PDAs as we know them today are destined to be replaced by tablets. There is a big market for handhelds as they are right now. I myself will continue to buy T5 style devices, and not tablets that you personally wish would take over.

If what you are saying about Palm Inc planning on doing mini-upgrades on OS 5 until the pending death of handhelds, then moving on to solely Treos with Linux is true, then I may as well just put my T5 is the trash now and move on. Luckily for me, I think you are dead wrong.

Where are you getting all this confidence in your info? Ex-PalmSource employees? Are you sure that they have their facts straight?

[E Ben G]

The T5 is a far superior device to anything out there. However, if you are really into Windows Mobile, buy the hx2750. I own one and it is good. Not as good at the marvelous T5 mind you, but it is good.
Good one Vampire Lestat, that was hilarious. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time, really.

Glad to see someone around here has a sense of humor.

[Surur_]

Lets not make it about WM vs Palm this time...

I much prefer the PDA vs mini-Tablet smackdown :)

As we are all PDA enthusiasts, I think Jeff will be defending his corner on his own ;)

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

Numerous times in your Podcast you mentioned that PalmSource is irrelevant now. Yet, you are predicting that Palm Inc will eventually only make Treos with Palm Linux. So how can PSource be irrelevant?

I said they might use Palm Linux, if PSRC survives long enough to deliver it and it offers useful features Garnet can't do.

I strongly disagree with your prediction that PDAs as we know them today are destined to be replaced by tablets. There is a big market for handhelds as they are right now. I myself will continue to buy T5 style devices, and not tablets that you personally wish would take over.

So you're telling me that when, not if, HP or Sony or Dell or Toshiba offers a Tablet PC running Longhorn maybe half again as big as your T5, with 6 hours of battery life, for $600, you wouldn't jump at that? That you'd rather stick with a device that can't run the same software you run on your desktop?

Not me. And I bet not most people. You're falling into the trap of assuming things won't change, that the tablets of three years from now will have the same price and the same battery life as tablets today.

If what you are saying about Palm Inc planning on doing mini-upgrades on OS 5 until the pending death of handhelds, then moving on to solely Treos with Linux is true, then I may as well just put my T5 is the trash now and move on. Luckily for me, I think you are dead wrong.

Why throw your T5 in the trash? It does what you need it to do today, right? These devices are tools. You're not married to them or the company that makes them. I love my T5, it does everything I want right now. But that doesn't mean I won't shift my requirements in the future. Change is good.

Where are you getting all this confidence in your info? Ex-PalmSource employees? Are you sure that they have their facts straight?

I haven't talked to any PalmSource employees recently. I'm getting a lot of my info from double super secret press releases that anyone can read on the internet. You have access to all the same information I do. I'm just being a bit more open-minded and a bit more inclusive in how I interpret that information.

Actually, maybe that's not entirely true. We have access to the same information, but we might weight it differently in our analysis. For example, I've been out to Microsoft's main campus in Redmond several times and it has been thoroughly impressed upon me how serious they are about the Tablet PC. Neither Gates nor Ballmer has ever used a Pocket PC for their actual jobs, but both carry Tablet PCs daily. The Tablet PC (and the Windows Mobile smartphone) is Microsoft vision of mobile computing, and they will put everything they need behind that vision. And when we get to the point where you can buy a mini tablet that's roughly the size, weight, battery life and price of your beloved T5, the Palm OS PDA is dead. We will get there. I will have such a tablet.

And I'll carry it along with my Palm OS Treo.

[jjesusfreak01]

You know Jeff, when the Longhorn tablet comes out, we can load up the Cobalt and Garnet simulators and use POS programs on those.

[E Ben G]

Lets not make it about WM vs Palm this time...

I much prefer the PDA vs mini-Tablet smackdown :)

As we are all PDA enthusiasts, I think Jeff will be defending his corner on his own ;)

Surur
Fair enough.

Jeff says that in a couple of years we'll be running PC OS's (Longhorn or whatever...). And he may be right.

What I've wondered is if this is really an improvement. I don't know. I suppose more functionality is always better, but there is now nothing I want to do on my PDA that I can't. The things I use my laptop for (Photoshop, etc.) I don't think I would ever want to do on a handheld.

I really don't know. I do think having a PC OS on a PDA would cause you to give some things up in speed and size, but maybe tech development will make these things irrevelant.

[Jeff Kirvin]

You know Jeff, when the Longhorn tablet comes out, we can load up the Cobalt and Garnet simulators and use POS programs on those.
If need be, yes. But are you really going to load the simulator to run DateBk6 when you have Outlook 2005? Are you going to use Blazer when you have Firefox 3.0?

Keep in mind that the tablets of which I speak look and feel much more like the PDAs of today than the tablets of today. Like I said in the cast, the form factor will be nearly the same as today's PDAs. Only the OS will differ. And of course, I'm assuming that Aero will gracefully scale down to a handheld-oriented UI, not unlike how this very website has both desktop and handheld interfaces for the same forums.

[E Ben G]

I love my T5, it does everything I want right now. But that doesn't mean I won't shift my requirements in the future. Change is good.

I agree, and I guess that's my question. What are we as consumers going to gain by having Longhorn on a PDA? What functions will we gain?

Not that there aren't any, but like I said, I can do everything I want to on my PDA already.

I guess MS would gain the elegance of only having to develop one platform instead of two. But I personally dread having to pony up and buy handheld-scaled software to run on a Longhorn-for-PDA. (I don't mean scaled for the screen, but I imagine handheld versions will be required to include PDA button functionality, fonts scaled for convenient handheld viewing, etc.)

[Jeff Kirvin]

What I've wondered is if this is really an improvement. I don't know. I suppose more functionality is always better, but there is now nothing I want to do on my PDA that I can't. The things I use my laptop for (Photoshop, etc.) I don't think I would ever want to do on a handheld.

Compare Netfront 3.2, by far the most advanced of PDA browsers, to Firefox 1.06.

Compare TextMaker, bloated as it is even on a fast PDA, to Word 2003.

Compare Agendus or Pocket Informant to Outlook.

It's not what you do, but how you do it that differs. Moving to a desktop OS on a "PDA" means accepting fewer compromises.

[jjesusfreak01]

Compare Netfront 3.2, by far the most advanced of PDA browsers, to Firefox 1.06.
1.06 is out? Im going to go get it now.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I guess MS would gain the elegance of only having to develop one platform instead of two. But I personally dread having to pony up and buy handheld-scaled software to run on a Longhorn-for-PDA.
Ah, but you see that's the beauty of Avalon. The new display engine from Microsoft uses a XMLish markup to design the displays. Not only does this allow the display to scale gracefully in ways bitmapped forms never could, but it also means that you can plug in different interfaces, kind of like the web uses CSS stylesheets, for different interfaces. The same app could ship with both handheld and desktop interfaces.

[E Ben G]

Compare Netfront 3.2, by far the most advanced of PDA browsers, to Firefox 1.06.

Compare TextMaker, bloated as it is even on a fast PDA, to Word 2003.

Compare Agendus or Pocket Informant to Outlook.

It's not what you do, but how you do it that differs. Moving to a desktop OS on a "PDA" means accepting fewer compromises.
You're definitely right about web-browsing, which could definitely be improved on Palm or WM.

But the other differences seem minor to me. Outlook is WAY more powerful than Pocket Informant, but PI does everything I need on my PDA.

I know that our needs will change as more becomes available, I just don't have a tangible sense of how my PDA experience would be better on a day to day basis if it was running desktop Windows.

[Cerebasan]

Drag and drop. Cool. Hadn't thought of that, but that is the way Apple tends to do things.

I just bought a LD, and I've been synching my podcasts with Itunes. I just have the itunes music folder/podcasts as a regualar synch. So I just start itunes, click update, then synch my LD. Way simpler than even drag and drop. Now if I could just get itunes to update the podcasts without me clicking the update button....

[Jeff Kirvin]

And in related news, Longhorn has a real official name now: Windows Vista.

http://tinyurl.com/8dnd3

[E Ben G]

Ah, but you see that's the beauty of Avalon. The new display engine from Microsoft uses a XMLish markup to design the displays. Not only does this allow the display to scale gracefully in ways bitmapped forms never could, but it also means that you can plug in different interfaces, kind of like the web uses CSS stylesheets, for different interfaces. The same app could ship with both handheld and desktop interfaces.
Hmmm...Avalon, haven't heard of it.

The thing I realized long ago is that these conversations are very interesting, but the one thing that takes the edge off of all of this to me is my realization of the importance of DATA. When I moved from Palm to PPC back to Palm back to PPC, it's never that big of a deal. I still have my contacts, mp3's, photos, map data, Word docs, whatever. Sure it can hit your pocketbook to switch the software at times, but the data always follows. Which is really nice.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I just bought a LD, and I've been synching my podcasts with Itunes. I just have the itunes music folder/podcasts as a regualar synch. So I just start itunes, click update, then synch my LD. Way simpler than even drag and drop. Now if I could just get itunes to update the podcasts without me clicking the update button....
In the settings for iTunes, go the Podcasts tab and change the interval from Manual to one of the timed schedules. I have mine set to check every hour.

[E Ben G]

And in related news, Longhorn has a real official name now: Windows Vista.

http://tinyurl.com/8dnd3
Cool. I check Engadget probably 50 times a day (like I have nothing better to do...) but you beat me to that one.

[jjesusfreak01]

Drag and drop (tabs), one of the new features in the newest beta build of Firefox (Deer Park).

[tk__421]

Running Longhorn on a small handheld would be amazing indeed, but it will NOT be ready by 2008! Not for 600$!! There is no way that the DEMAND for such handhelds will be high enough to justify such a price drop in technology.


But I agree with Jeff that the future of mobile computing for many of us is a Treo, and a mini tablet. I have actually decided to embrace the future RIGHT NOW, by getting a hx4700 as a mini laptop replacement, and keeping my trusty old Zire 71 for PIM (and the wonderful Bonsai) until I get a Treo. When mini tablets appear and go down in price to something under 1000$, I will certainly get one. But I don't see that happenning until 2010 at the earliest.


BTW, I know that the hx4700 is a bad PDAs in many ways, but I do extensive storyboarding and graphical work, and I decided to take a complete digital plunge. With its gorgeous 4" VGA screen and Pocket Artist, I just might be able to do a lot of work on the go. I also plan on using Netfront, Textmaker, and Repligo on it, as well as stream internet radio. The Zire 71 will still take care of my PIM, outline work with Bonsai, and language studies. So that VGA screen is a MUST for me. The hx4700 is the ONLY choice for mobile art, because it has perfect color rendition, as well as a considerable size. You would be surprised at what I can produce on it by setting up a virtual resolution and zooming out. The drawings still look amazingly sharp even on a HDTV screen.


But honestly, a Longhorn tablet with Corel Paint would be much better. But that's just fantasy land for the next 5 years if you ask me. I wish that there were many more super PDA geeks like us around, so that the prices would go down fast enough.


PPCS are terrible personal oganizers. They are so confusing to use. I just realized that I CANNOT live without my palm to organize my life, no way! So simple, so elegant, so snappy. I don't care how archaic its operating system is, it does that job extremely well. But it just CANNOT replace a laptop. Not for a user with precise demands like me. The hx4700 is about as close as it gets to having a laptop in your pocket now, so I guess I'll just have to learn to deal with the touchpad and confusing OS, at least until they release another high end Ipaq without it.


So I am still a Palmist. But I just need the high end functions of the PPC. Hopefully the old adage that two heads are better than one applies to the PDA world too. Frankly, if it wasn't for art and handwritten note taking, I would definitely stick to Palm (i.e. wait for something with Wi-fi that is actually usable.) Maybe someday Palms will have VGA screens and a OS that will allow software like Pocket Artist to be made. (Niner Paint is on its way, but its developper is having a really hard time with the limited computing power of Palms, so he told me.)


Oh, I will come back with the link to the T XX fake pics. They are quite revealing.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Running Longhorn on a small handheld would be amazing indeed, but it will NOT be ready by 2008! Not for 600$!! There is no way that the DEMAND for such handhelds will be high enough to justify such a price drop in technology.

But I agree with Jeff that the future of mobile computing for many of us is a Treo, and a mini tablet. I have actually decided to embrace the future RIGHT NOW, by getting a hx4700 as a mini laptop replacement, and keeping my trusty old Zire 71 for PIM (and the wonderful Bonsai) until I get a Treo. When mini tablets appear and go down in price to something under 1000$, I will certainly get one. But I don't see that happenning until 2010 at the earliest.

Bill Gates disagrees with you. And I think he has more pull in the PC industry than you do.

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/341/C3978/

http://tinyurl.com/857lj

http://tinyurl.com/bhxjd

In short, the tablets will appear in the 2007-2008 timeframe, and sell for $500-800. At least, if Microsoft has anything to say about it, and I think they do.

Oh, I will come back with the link to the T XX fake pics. They are quite revealing.

Please do.

[craigdts]

Love your podcasts.

On garnet: you say that Palm will continue to develop it over the next few years while palmsource gets cobalt for linux up and running. While this seems to have been palms strategy so far, I'm not sure it can or should continue. I spoke with a palm exec about a year ago and he said (much like you do) that Garnet does all that they need it to do now and that they didnt need to go to Cobalt because they thought it would confuse developers. But he did say they anticipated having a cobalt device in late '05, but gave them room to put one out in early '06. He said no to Windows, again because palm os does all they need it to do. Note again, this info. is over a year old and a lot can change.

But here is the problem with not putting out a cobalt device until cobalt linux is ready. If cobalt on linux is the future and Palm buys into that vision then why continue to develop and put resources into a "dead" OS (garnet) that has no future in 2 years? Because presumably Palm improvements to cobalt will carry over to linux cobalt, as well as programs (third party). Making the move now seems to be the best move or else when cobalt linux is ready, it will be behind the curve because Palm will have much work ahead of them as far as putting their mark on it goes.

In other words, if palm makes the transition to cobalt now or soon, then cobalt will be 2 years ahead in development vs. them making the transition only in 2007 or so when cobalt linux is ready.

I know Palm brass may be concerned about the bottom line, but this is worthh the cost for the future of their preferred platform. It may cost them a few $, but it will pay off in developers being on board (and not having totally jumped to Msft) when linux is added. I also understand that they have little wiggle room as the treo is leading the market and they don't want to stumble with it (cobalt transition): this is the main argument I see not going to cobalt.

From a consumer perspective: I've owned the treo 300, 600, and 650. I don't see myself upgrading to a new treo, unless it has cobalt. It does everything i need now, but I couldnt resist playing with a new operating system, likewise i think this is the same for PDA form factor users as well.

Regarding tablet PCs, they may be replacements for laptops but i have difficulty believing they will replace PDAs because they are not wearable items (you still need a briefcase). I asked the same palm guy a year ago about tablet palms on cobalt, he said they are sticking to the pda, mobile devices. I don't see a tablet PC replacing my laptop. Why? if i need that kind of computing power I will have a briefcase with me (either tablet PC or laptop) so why not just put a laptop in it? I can type faster on the laptop right? screen bigger right? Won't laptops get lighter and more durable over next 3 years also? The mini tablets would be a good PC replacement in a pinch, but so is a treo so why duplicate? To think this out further it would be good to have a poll on what are uses for a mobile device and then one may better be able to speculate.

Gates said that tablet PCs were future a few years ago and they have not caught on, he can be wrong. Will these mini tablets have the same fate?

Summing up: I think it is a serious strategic error to keep developing garnet instead of moving to cobalt.

anyways just some thoughts, enjoy the podcasts, keep them up!

[tk__421]

Jeff,


I was aware that gates was working on something of the sort, but I must admit that I didn't know it would be so amazing, and on the market so fast.


I guess you are right. PDAs will start dying in 2-3 years, and all their processing power will be put inside smartphones like the Treo. But I still believe that we will see handhelds like teh Tungsten, but they will be smartphones with a slate form factor.


I guess my combination of Zire 71 for PIM and an hx4700 for my more serious computing needs (internet, graphics, word processing) is a good approximation to what the future holds for my mobile life. Next year I'll just get a Treo, and I will be all set. Well, a Sony Vaio would be pretty cool too, but with poor battery life and a high price tag, I will have to pass on it for a year.


You made my day, Jeff. Really. The future has beautiful things in store for all of us, so it seems.


I looked for the T XX picture, but could not find it. I was sure that it has been revealed a hoax here as well, so I didn't bother mentionning it here. I will look again somtime, and post the link somewhere. But it was very clear from the picture that the "Tungsten XX" marking had been photoshopped.


I am feeling a bit better getting an hx4700 now that I know that I will be carrying a windows device with me in 2-3 years. I just wish the screen was bigger than 4" though. I will be the first to get one of those small tablets when they are released! Hopefully Sony will make one, so I can have a gorgeous screen like on the Ipaq.


Thanks for the links!

[Surur_]

Regarding tablet PCs, they may be replacements for laptops but i have difficulty believing they will replace PDAs because they are not wearable items (you still need a briefcase). I asked the same palm guy a year ago about tablet palms on cobalt, he said they are sticking to the pda, mobile devices. I don't see a tablet PC replacing my laptop. <b> Why? if i need that kind of computing power I will have a briefcase with me (either tablet PC or laptop) so why not just put a laptop in it? I can type faster on the laptop right? screen bigger right? Won't laptops get lighter and more durable over next 3 years also? </b> The mini tablets would be a good PC replacement in a pinch, but so is a treo so why duplicate? To think this out further it would be good to have a poll on what are uses for a mobile device and then one may better be able to speculate.

Gates said that tablet PCs were future a few years ago and they have not caught on, he can be wrong. Will these mini tablets have the same fate?

I subscribe to this view. If its not pocketable, and you are going to have to carry it in a bag, why not get a larger, more practical device?

Bill may be pushing it, but a) it hasnt caught on so far in the larger version and b) he cant change the laws of physics (battery wise etc).

Surur

[tk__421]

http://forum.palmattitude.org/index.php?showtopic=24353


Just zoom in on that picture, and you will clearly see that it has been photoshoped.

The next Palm to be introduced will be the Zire 73. There will probably be an upgrade to the T5 before Christmas ith Wi-fi built-in, but I doubt it will be called the Tungsten XX. And I doubt it will be the one on that picture.

I couldn't care less for a T7 now. I just want my 7" LCD tablet pc! I wish I could preorder one now.


Jeff, you mentionned a new Vaio U-70 with a keyboard in a previous post. Do you have a link discussing this rumor? Or is it a fact... Perhaps I should get this instead of the Ipaq... But I guess I can't wait now, so I'll just get this next year along with a Treo.


I'm glad I jumped into this whole digital organization thing. The possibilities will rise exponentially in the next few years. I am starting to like Bill Gates now. Is that bad?

[jjesusfreak01]

Here is my semi professional opinion on these so called "fake" photos. There are regular jpeg compression artifacts on the Tungsten logo. This is expected. The smudged area at the top is where they usually put serial numbers to identify prototype models. It is extremely likely that if this is a real prototype, the person didnt want these numbers revealed, as Palm would be able to link them to the photo. Im my opinion, these artifacts give more credibility to the device, but we will have to see.

If you look through the full set of original photos (http://wolwol.smugmug.com/gallery/614096/1/25983358) (there are nine of them), you can see another photo of the back with a sticker which says (paraphrased): This device is not authorized by the FCC, it is a prototype.

For someone to fake that many photos would be alot of work for a hoax. I would have to guess it is a genuine device.

[Papageoff]

A zire to replace the T5? Maybe on a college campus, but not in a board room.

[tk__421]

I subscribe to this view. If its not pocketable, and you are going to have to carry it in a bag, why not get a larger, more practical device?

Bill may be pushing it, but a) it hasnt caught on so far in the larger version and b) he cant change the laws of physics (battery wise etc).

Surur


But they will be made pocketable eventually, and replace Pocket PCs in the end. The 2007-2008 release date seems a bit unrealistic though. (It will probably be pushed back, just like Lonhorn.)


Really, a PPC can do pretty much everything I need in a mobile computing device. I just don't like it for PIM, that's all. I have my Zire 71 for that anyway. The issue for me is screen size now.


Surur, is the VGA screen on your Loox causing eye strain a standard WM 2003 SE resolution? (SE_VGA is a no-go of course. Feels like a razor in my eyes!) The toshiba was causing considerale eye strain, but I hoping it was just the terrible screen lighting, like staring at a neon light. The Loox and the hx4700 have the same screen, except for size. I never had any problems on my Zire 71. (It has a beautiful Sony Screen too.)


If the Ipaq doesn't cause any eye strain, my digital setup will be complete. I can't live without the simplicity of Palm, and need more processing power in my pocket as well. (REAL internet, graphics software, word processing, etc...) Too bad there isn't an all-around solution out there.

[tk__421]

A zire to replace the T5? Maybe on a college campus, but not in a board room.


I'm not saying that the Zire 73 will replace the T5, just that the next Palm device will likely be a Zire. If a Zire 73 had a HVGA screen and wi-fi, it would be the Palm equivalent of the TH-55. May not look professionnal, but the functions are there. (I know some places don't accept digital cameras though.)


Remember that there is no voice recorder on the T5. For a buiseness device, that seems to be a huge omission. You can get the LifeDrive, but it is certainly not a very professional device. (I don't want to look like I am carrying around a multimedia player at meetings! Even as a graduate student, it would make me feel idiotic, and look like some slacker ho is spending his afternoons listening to MP3s and watching movies. This is one of the reasons I returned it.)


Palm will always find a way to screw up their devices so that they can sell more units to the same users year after year. The T7 will have wi-fi, and the next one will have wi-fi and hopefully a voice recorder. The T9 will have Palm linux, but they will remove wi-fi, only to be added the following year without bluetooth, and so on until Palm only makes Cell Phones. PPCs may have that crappy WM OS, but at least they are complete hardware solutions.

[Surur_]

I dont understand the question, as with normal VGA the text is the same size, but just better defined, smoother and looks much prettier. If anything it should cause less eye strain. Now true VGA on the other hand, I can believe that it can cause eye strain. Mini-tablets will have the same problem (high res in a small area) with the additional problem of the desktop software not being designed for a small screen size. On a 5 inch 800x600 screen, a 32 pixel icon would be 3.5mm (0.14 inches) wide. Thats pretty small. Its about the same dot pitch as the VGA screen on your Toshiba, accept that the software would expect to be on a large screen, whereas PDA software expects a high resolution on a small screen, and therefore use much larger icons. I know the longhorn OS is suppose to scale, but what about the apps?

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

Okay, combined responses:

Like Brad said, the "photoshopping" on the T7 pics looks like standard JPG compression artifacting to me. I still think the pics are real.

As I've said, the new tablets will be smaller and lighter than they are today, making them both more pocketable and longer lasting in regards to the battery. They'll probably look very much like the HP hx4700, but run Longhorn instead of the more compromise-laden Windows Mobile.

Avalon, the new display engine in Longhorn, allows for different UIs on different devices running the same application. For example, this is a prototype of the UI for a pen-based mini-tablet:

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/lh_winhec_proto_12.jpg

Check engadget for the scoop on the UX-50ish VAIO rumor.

As for Cobalt, there's one problem with that idea. PalmSource has already abandoned Cobalt, so there's no one left to develop or maintain it. It is truly an orphan product. Palm has lots of experience with Garnet, so they can develop that on their own, but maintaining Cobalt would be a much more difficult task. This is why we won't see any Cobalt devices, ever. PSRC has orphaned the product.

[Surur_]

Very nice Jeff, but if you will need these special cameleon apps to make it work, whats the advantage over win ce?

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

Okay, who out there in the crowd thinks that the next version of Office won't be designed with Avalon in mind and ship with multiple UIs? Show of hands.

[Jeff Kirvin]

And of course, older apps will still run, they just won't be optimized for handheld use. So they'll look just like they would on a laptop. Still a much better solution than having to buy new specialty software for CE.

[E Ben G]

Very nice Jeff, but if you will need these special cameleon apps to make it work, whats the advantage over win ce?

That was my question earlier. I know on paper progress is always better, but I don't see exactly how I, the consumer, gain from this. Lot's of little things, but I'm not seeing any big 'killer' app that I'll gain with vista-for-pda.

Though that screenshot does look cool, Jeff.

[tk__421]

Jeff,


Wow! Now I am getting pretty revved up about Longhorn! It is pretty obvious now that the Pocket Pc is just a stand-in for these new Tablet PCs. I guess I will just have to consider my upcomming hx a temporary solution.


I am sure that there will be some way to carry them on a belt. I am pretty sure that they will become much more popular than PDAs, because they are running the same OS as the desktop, so there is almost no learning curve involved.


What I see for myself in the future? Some Palm smartphone with a slate form factor with a hard drive and wi-fi in my pocket (like some cross between the Treo and the LD), and a mini tablet to carry around like some small book (or maybe on a belt leather case?). The Palm would allow for snappy consultation and document editing, while the mini tablet allow for more serious computing.


For the time being though, the Zire 71 and hx4700 will have to do. They both have amazing screens, so I am happy in the meantime.



Surur,


I don't have any experience with QVGA PPCs, so I am not aware that the letters are the same size. It is possible that my eye strain came from the Toshiba's hideous screen. (Resolution isn't the only thing.) I will get the Ipaq tomorrow and I will soon find out. I sure hope everything will be fine!

[E Ben G]

I don't have any experience with QVGA PPCs, so I am not aware that the letters are the same size. It is possible that my eye strain came from the Toshiba's hideous screen. (Resolution isn't the only thing.) I will get the Ipaq tomorrow and I will soon find out. I sure hope everything will be fine!
Believe me, if fonts are your concern, you're going to be in heaven with the 4700.

Enjoy.

[Vampire Lestat]

Hi Jeff,

Table-schmablet... Longhorn-schlonghorn... bla bla bla.

Tablet PC sales are way weaker than Bill Gates expected and the reason for that is that they are not really wanted.

A PDA = super small + pocketable.
A laptop = run around at work with Wifi and use Windows to get work done AND.... AAAAAAND... enjoy the super fast speed of a keyboard.

Tablet PC = too big to put in your pocket and entering data with a stylus and/or taps sucks (compared to a laptop keyb). So Bill Gates and Balmer can run around all they want with tablet Longhorn, I guarantee you that tablets will remain a niche market.

And Jeff, if you buy a tablet, I am willing to bet you will sell your Treo, and you will buy a mini plain cell phone. You will want integration and simplicity, and having 2 computer organizing things will seem superfluous to you.

Having Longhorn on a PDA is not needed one tiny bit. As long as documents and files are exchangeable between the desktop and the handheld, consumers will be satisfied. What buyers WILL look for is a) ergonomy b) style c) quality rugged build d) speed e) simplicity f) and having a device that is fun and actually works for them to improve their lives. Palm OS has all that and more.

Perhaps PalmSource is going to start by making Pinux mobile edition, but I guarantee you that Pinux will be made into a handheld version very quickly because Palm Inc wants to reduce time-to-market and operation costs for their handheld market! PDAs = 50 to 60% of Palm's sales I think. Would Palm be profitable without that? And if Im not mistaken, the Treo Palm OS does not use a washed down Palm OS, so even more reason for PalmSource to hurry a Palm Linux - regular edition to market.

Tweaking OS 5 for a few years might actually be beneficial for developers and consumers. I know I am tired of waiting after updates to make programs compatible with my T5. How about you?

PalmSource is nowhere near dead and Palm Inc will not let them ruin Palm OS since they have too much at stake. Palm Inc did not buy its brand name back just to become another Dell or HP catering to Microsoft.

Jeff, I seriously think you have the WM itch and the only way you will get over it is if you buy a WM device and keep it alongside your T5. Go buy a mini laptop if you need a desktop on the go, there are some very tiny ones out there now; enjoy the keyboard.

A PDA has to mini ultra tiny and pocketable. In the end, we the consumers are the bosses with out $$$. And my $$$ is going to support T5 style handhelds.

[craigdts]

dont take this these comments the wrong way, i really respect what you have to say but . . .



As I've said, the new tablets will be smaller and lighter than they are today, making them both more pocketable and longer lasting in regards to the battery. They'll probably look very much like the HP hx4700, but run Longhorn instead of the more compromise-laden Windows Mobile.

Hmmm. . . but if you still have to use a stylus to input information, how is that an improvement over todays PDA? If your talking about them getting smaller and smaller (say the size of a PDA) how is having full MS OS capabilities going to make doing anything easier than it is today? Without screen real estate and a full sized qwerty keyboard, "new tablets" or PDAs are going to remain an independent class of devices and should.

And by the way I thought in your talk u were talking about tablet PCs, the size of a small note pad, if so there's no way it will fit in a pocket. You can say "smaller and smaller" but that changes things.

Assuming its a smaller device:
I can see it now, people pulling out these full windows OS devices in the airport to check their mail, tasks list, or calendars (which will not be as easy as me on my palm os device). If thats what they will be doing on it and it can already be done well on todays devices, then how does that improve on it? "Its got full windows and you can use full windows apps. I seriously don't see myself running any heavy apps on a tablet device unless its in a pinch (i'd just use a desktop or laptop for speed). I wont spend 30 minutes doing something it will take me 5 minutes to do on a PC.

Assuming its a larger device: I'll take a 2-3 lb laptop in 3 years instead.



Avalon, the new display engine in Longhorn, allows for different UIs on different devices running the same application. For example, this is a prototype of the UI for a pen-based mini-tablet:


yeah it kind of looks like a pda screen, so? so msft can get rid of ppc. assuming this is used for PDA type tasks, how do you back it up? gonna sync windows with windows?

What exactly appeals to you having full windows on a pda, is it just a better OS? I guess it would help if you could say just exacltly what you intend on doing on one of these new devices - then we can say "will it do it better than a PDA or a laptop created in 2007-8?"


As for Cobalt, there's one problem with that idea. PalmSource has already abandoned Cobalt, so there's no one left to develop or maintain it. It is truly an orphan product. Palm has lots of experience with Garnet, so they can develop that on their own, but maintaining Cobalt would be a much more difficult task. This is why we won't see any Cobalt devices, ever. PSRC has orphaned the product.

My understanding is that cobalt and garnet have been sitting abandoned by palmsource for a while, only providing service to customers. Not being a programmer, will palm being doing anything with cobalt or will they just be working under linux if they use cobalt linux? If they work with cobalt and linux, they could get cobalt going now.

I'm sure they have a team working with cobalt now, and palmsource will give them whatever resources (employees) needed to get a cobalt device out.

I think palms reluctance is because they don't want to have cobalt and garnet running on too many different devices. It would confuse customers and developer. If they can switch both treo and pda lines together (except maybe zire) I think they will do it. The longer they wait to make the change the cheaper it is now, but the more it will cost them later. People understand palmsource is in transition, palm should make it now too (for developers), or else after PS transition palm will have to make one. It will be less traumatic to the palm economy to do it now.

Have a good week end.

[JJF01]

Remember, you cant call it Longhorn anymore. It is Windows Vista.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'll try to put together a more detailed answer later, but for now I have a question for those wondering why a mini-tablet would be any better than a modern PDA: If Garnet is just as good as Vista for what you use a mobile computer for, then why are so many people complaining about using Garnet instead of Cobalt?

[E Ben G]

I'll try to put together a more detailed answer later, but for now I have a question for those wondering why a mini-tablet would be any better than a modern PDA: If Garnet is just as good as Vista for what you use a mobile computer for, then why are so many people complaining about using Garnet instead of Cobalt?
Jeff, I think at least some of us are comparing WM to Vista-on-a-PDA, not Garnet. (I'm not interested in starting a WM/Palm argument...)

I know that when I ask about why the tablet would be better, it's not to disagree with your podcast. We're talking about the future, right?, so I'm just trying to get a better idea of what that will look like. I know it's easy to say Vista on a PDA will be better than our current PDA OS's. But this is a little bit of a cop-out. It's like saying the definition of 'progress' is 'progress'. Not really saying much. So, I think some of us are trying to get a conversation started about what this will really look like.

WHY will it be better? (Not that it won't, mind you, but WHY?)

[Vampire Lestat]

I have absolutely no problem at all with Garnet. Cobalt would be nice because it was built from the ground up with Be code that promised to improve graphics, 3D stuff and movies. But OS 5 is just fine if that is what is to be.

If we could convince the owner of WordLogic.com to get his *** in gear and get to his Palm OS port of WordLogic, we would then see how a Palm device can equal or even surpasse text entry compared to a laptop. One of the big reasons I actually bought my hx2750 was because of the power of WordLogic.

The CEO told me that he is finishing his desktop version of WordLogic first, then he we revisit his Palm project.

I wish some other company would come up with something similar. LOTS of cash to be made with this kind of program for Palm users. Any professional developers listening?

[Legodude522]

I agree with many of Jeff Kirvin's views, he just takes them to the extremes. lol I will listen to your new podcast tonight.

[craigdts]

If Garnet is just as good as Vista for what you use a mobile computer for, then why are so many people complaining about using Garnet instead of Cobalt?
I think your talking to me. I argue they should switch to Cobalt because
(1) I think Palm and Palmsource have made it known that their future OS will be Cobalt on Linux.

That being the case, (2) I think it is important for Palm to work all of the kinks out of the Cobalt layer? (I'm not sure this is the correct language, not a programmer) before it is added to Linux to make the transition easier.

(3) for confidence, moving to Cobalt would show developers that Palm is serious about sticking with Palm OS and would encourage them to begin work on cobalt programs so that when linux comes out it there will already be a large base of cobalt enabled programs.

(4) Just because it is a new OS I think you would have an large increase in device upgrades with then a flood of older palm OS devices entering market as a result increasing the Palm economy (new users get/buy the upgrading peoples Palms).

(5) Furthermore, a boost would be given to other licensees and OEMs to their confidence in Palmsource's future. Benefiting Palm (more licensees = more devices, hopefully then better chance to fight Msft and symbian) and palmsource.

[Surur_]

(4) Just because it is a new OS I think you would have an large increase in device upgrades with then a flood of older palm OS devices entering market as a result increasing the Palm economy (new users get/buy the upgrading peoples Palms).

Jeff would contend that consumers do not care about the OS, and that a change in OS would not result in a large upgrade spike. I would remind him of the large spike in PC purchases following the release of Windows 95. The fact is that the kind of people who buy PDA's DO know some tech.

Actually I wonder if Jeff did not have an about turn about these things. Having previously said that the vast majority of Palm users do not consult message boards prior to purchase he has in this podcast suggested Palm invests some money in hiring people to do doing the same.

Surur

[jjesusfreak01]

Actually I wonder if Jeff did not have an about turn about these things. Having previously said that the vast majority of Palm users do not consult message boards prior to purchase he has in this podcast suggested Palm invests some money in hiring people to do doing the same.
I would have to say that people probably do not consult the boards before their very first PDA purchase. I did not look into the message boards until after I bought my second PDA. People on the message boards are likely to be more tech minded, and a direct representative who could answer questions could be very helpful in gaining buyers who were getting a second or third PDA.

[Dick Tracy]

The overwhelming majority of PDA and smartphone owners I have encountered in real life are not technically minded, do not go on boards/forums, and have no third party applications. They are the same people whose VCRs had blinking clocks and who now have a separate remote for each electronic item in their home.

[Juttonn]

Surur, is the VGA screen on your Loox causing eye strain a standard WM 2003 SE resolution? (SE_VGA is a no-go of course. Feels like a razor in my eyes!) The toshiba was causing considerale eye strain, but I hoping it was just the terrible screen lighting, like staring at a neon light. The Loox and the hx4700 have the same screen, except for size. I never had any problems on my Zire 71. (It has a beautiful Sony Screen too.)

I use the Loox 720 in SE_VGA all of the time (except for occassional game playing) and I love it. I realize that many don't like looking at icons that small, but works fine for me. I agree though with the point that in order for a PDA to be successful, it has to be pocketable. I've got a 17" laptop that I take with me when I need to do heavy computer work, or a lot of it. But I always carry on my person my Pocket Loox 720 (PPC with 3.6" VGA screen). If it were a bigger device, I wouldn't carry it with me everywhere (even if it were a "mini tablet", the size of a Stenopad), and what good is a device, even a great device, if it's not with you when you need it?

I realize that not everybody uses devices just like me, but I think there are a bunch of us out there. I'd love to have a device the size of what I have now running Windows Vista, but I'm not willing to purchase one much larger to replace what I have now (but I might buy something to complement what I have).

I think the best way to tackle the size of the device/size of the screen tradeoff is to develop a Heads Up Display integrated into eyewear that has a wireless link (or even wired) to the computer. The computer would be the size of current PDA's, but would have no screen. They would stay in the pocket or on the belt. Wireless headset/microphone would provide voice input and sound output, and optionally a wireless mouse & keyboard could be added for graphics/video editing, games, and the like that are more comportably done with your hands and not just voice commands. That's my dream Personal Data Assistant, but I have no idea if anyone is looking at developing something like that and/or how far off that might be. :rolleyes:

[Juttonn]

Jeff-

Just want to say that I've enjoyed listening to your podcasts. I'm pretty new here, and have listened to maybe 4 or 5 of your podcasts. I have a couple of comments to make regarding some of the points you've made in the past few podcasts.

I'm a Windows Mobile user and came over from Palm a few years ago (I'll do my best not to be a "Troll" about it though :) ). Anyway came over because I wanted a converged PDA/Phone device and Sprint didn't offer a palm phone device with a memory card slot. They had the Treo 300 and were about to release the Sansung i500. Sprint had decided not to carry the Kyocera 7135. I felt I needed something with an expansion slot, so I decided to try the Toshiba 2032 (same thing as the Audiovox Thera). Well that turned out to be a bad PDA and a bad phone all in the same device, but I could see that for me, I liked the operating system and what it offered me better than Palm OS. From there I went to the HP 2215 and now to a Fujitsu Siemens Pocket Loox 720. Anyway, I assumed (possibly through some unrealized arrogance on my part) that since I thought that WM was better that Palm OS that everyone that could make an informed decision would feel the same way. Mind you, I haven't been on a crusade to convert anybody or be a jerk about it, but it was good to hear that you made the switch in the other direction to Palm OS, and you seem like you're a knowledgable, smart guy. I feel that I am a pretty open guy, but it's interesting how easy it is to look at things from only their own point of view.

If things go like you predect and everyone is using mini-tablets with desktop OS's on them, do you see anyone competing with MS? You mention that the Palm OS will only be used for smart phones. Do you think that Palm (the hardware company) will make PDAs (aka mini-tablets) running on Linnux, or Mac OS, or anything else? I hope it doesn't get to the point were it's only MS. I haven't followed Palm very closely for a few years now, not having a Palm device myself, but I'm all for strong competition to keep innovation up.

Case in Point: when Netscape died and ie was the only player in town, development slowed way down. MS wasn't planning on releasing a major upgrade for ie until Vista shipped. Now that Firefox is on the scene and gaining market share, ie is scheduled to be updated befor the end of the year and include things liked tabbed browsing.

I hope that Palm and Symbian do well and keep the pressure on MS and one each other to keep innovating and making better devices. I'd even switch back to Palm if they make a device that's perfect for me.

Sorry for the rant. Just want to say I enjoy the podcasts. It's an easy way to keep up with what's happening on the Palm side of things.

[Jeff Kirvin]

If things go like you predect and everyone is using mini-tablets with desktop OS's on them, do you see anyone competing with MS? You mention that the Palm OS will only be used for smart phones. Do you think that Palm (the hardware company) will make PDAs (aka mini-tablets) running on Linnux, or Mac OS, or anything else? I hope it doesn't get to the point were it's only MS. I haven't followed Palm very closely for a few years now, not having a Palm device myself, but I'm all for strong competition to keep innovation up.
I expect to see mini-tablets running both Linux and Mac OS along with Vista. It should be just as diverse a market as desktops are today, at least where choice of OS is concerned. I also expect Apple to be a stronger player once they can run on the same hardware as Windows.

[Legodude522]

The reason why I said your podcast was BS because you said mini tablets will be running Longhorn.[Winblows Longwhore] I posted the same theory about "mini-tablets" as you call them on PalmInfoCenter before I knew about yours. But I never had the thought of a PDA running a Longhorn varient. I happen to have a copy of Longhorn beta and its 700mb. Lots of integreted repressing stuff. It would be trickey to make a PDA varient.

[strider_mt2k]

The overwhelming majority of PDA and smartphone owners I have encountered in real life are not technically minded, do not go on boards/forums, and have no third party applications. They are the same people whose VCRs had blinking clocks and who now have a separate remote for each electronic item in their home.

Sadly, I have to agree.
In my travels I have only encountered one (1) enthusiast-level user.
(He stopped and asked me about my TH55 during a slow period at a conference .)

All others simply used the devices and a means to an end, and didn't get deep into the tweaks and hacks at all.


I got into these things because they are a gadget that is dynamic. Users can change what they do and how they do it so the experience needn't get old, and the device stays useful.
-=For me, the fiddling IS the user experience.=-
(No wonder I run a Clie, and a TH55 no less.)
I admit I am what I call a "One percenter" here, so my opinions are in the minority to put it lightly.

[jjesusfreak01]

The reason why I said your podcast was BS because you said mini tablets will be running Longhorn.[Winblows Longwhore] I posted the same theory about "mini-tablets" as you call them on PalmInfoCenter before I knew about yours. But I never had the thought of a PDA running a Longhorn varient. I happen to have a copy of Longhorn beta and its 700mb. Lots of integreted repressing stuff. It would be trickey to make a PDA varient.
Now heres the trick. The Vista installer is so quick because it only installs what it needs to. A specialized driver set and windows itself could possibly take up alot less space. Anyways, you can stick a gig of RAM on anything nowadays, and since any conceivable tablet will have a HDD, it would not be a storage problem. We are not talking about sticking Vista on a PDA, but rather on a small tablet pc that will replace the pda. Anyways, ten years ago engineers would have not believed us if we told them that handheld computers would have 600mhz processors. Also, since Gates displayed a working mini tablet running something, either XP or Vista (it doesnt really matter), we know it is possible.

[Surur_]

The Haiku mini-tablet was a mock-up, probably painted wood. If it had a working LCD it was probably win ce displaying a picture.

Tablet PC's is Bill Gates's dream, and its one area where they are trying to be innovative, and create a new market. If people do not respond even they can not force the issue.

Regarding the internet and its influence on purchases. I found my house on the internet, and I expect most people with access to computers look at estate agent listings on the internet. I look up and book flights on the internet, and there are a number of air lines specifically ONLY taking bookings online. Remember google made finding these things very easy.

I expect if you are going to spend $300-$500 you are going to do SOME research at least. That will involve asking friends, speaking to sales people and reading reviews. Especially with the reducing retail presence, websites and word of mouth will become increasingly more important. Of course you may read What PDA? or similar. PDA's are getting more expensive, and unless we are talking about $99 Zires people will want to check that they are spending their money properly. I do not think the importance if Websites should be underestimated. And of course people trust consumer feedback more than professional reviews.

Surur

[Vampire Lestat]

Can someone tell me what Russian ebook reader Jeff Kirvin was bragging several weeks ago? I want to get it but I forget the name and 1src erases very old Podcasts.

Thanks!

[Jeff Kirvin]

PalmFiction

And I'll see about setting up a permanent archive.

[Vampire Lestat]

Thanks Jeff! That was quick. A friend was asking for a good ebook reader and I remembered your podcast.

You have a lot of influence. LOL

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'm here to help.