1SRC Podcast ThirtyTwo

[Jeff Kirvin]

A Public Service Message: Being a troll comes down to intention, not method. We choose Palm OS. Respect our choice.
T3 vs T5 speed shootout on Grassnet.
Do Palms really multitask? Who cares?
The Once and Future Palm, continued
Will the Treo make Palm the Apple of Smartphones? [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1145)]

[soccrnj80]

I love the public service message. I agree....

[soccrnj80]

go troll somewhere else

[jjesusfreak01]

Jeff, just to let you know, the Zen Vision is cool, but nothing special. It doesnt match up to the Epson P-2000, which has a VGA screen as well as SD and CF card slots. It is the best design for a hardcore photo viewer out now. Much better as a general media viewer, the Creative Zen Vision is going to have to compete against this (http://reviews.cnet.com/Archos_AV700_Mobile_DVR_100GB/4505-6499_7-31392977.html). I like the podcast Jeff, but I still want better support for threading, at the very least.

[JAmerican]

Wow. I like some things about WM and Palm and hate some things about both. I have never tried the WM so it looks like the things I hate about Palm (multitasking), are confirmed and the things I don't like about WM are not confirmed, like instability, bloatedness.

I think I need to give WM a try instead of rely on the rumors of others.

JAmerican

[PDAPPC]

I love the public service message. I agree....

For the most part I agree. HOWEVER, when you have Palm devotees spouting information that is either subjective, out of date, or just plain untrue, then a Pocket PC owner who just happens to be interested in the going on of ALL platforms, needs to step in and correct the mistruths.

Just because you or anyone else here doen't like what is said, doesn't mean it can't be said. I particularly didn't like someone telling me that my device is slow and multi-tasking is a waste. Did you have every right to say that? Of course you did. Just like it's my right to refute the statements of mis-truths.

As for my opinions about the stability and foundations of the Palm OS, I still stand by what I have said -- feel free to disagree.

Jeff, from what I have heard on your prior podcasts and today's rant, I now truly see what many have said about your tendency to "waffle" on issues. You talk about a "constrictive environment" of PDA's but yet you tout that portable tablets are on the horizon. Hate to break it to ya, but there are some PDA's with enough processing power and memory of some of the last generation of PC's and in a price range that is very affordable.

I have asked several times (in so many ways) for individuals to present their case for the "future of Palm" in the consumer and corporate space. What roadmap is Palm presenting to both "Joe Customer" and "Joe Corporate Department"? Are people supposed to wait for L-Palm to arrive 2 years from now and have it be significantly a "different user experience" from the Palm-as-we-know-it? I have read from many that yes, indeed the Palm-Linux user experience will be different from what exists today. What say you then?

[Surur]

Jeff, take a look at this graph.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5418/posvswm2eu.jpg
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5418/posvswm2eu.jpg
These numbers DO include Treo's. Its not just marketshare thats important, its also the trend. If your year on year sales are going down there is very little point in investing in a company, as their profits will only decrease.

So Garnet is perfect? The latest advances in Windows Mobile will transition developers to .Net CF, which will mean managed code, protection against memory leaks, less security problems and therefore more stable devices. They have also provided API's to give developers better access to hardware, e.g cameras and GPS units. What's garnet's answer?

Not all companies become Apple. Most become Word-perfect, Novell and Lotus.

In summary, looking at that graph, Palm OS's future has never been bleaker.

How's that for a rude awakening?

Surur

[PDAPPC]

So Garnet is perfect? The latest advances in Windows Mobile will transition developers to .Net CF, which will mean managed code, protection against memory leaks, less security problems and therefore more stable devices. They have also provided API's to give developers better access to hardware, e.g cameras and GPS units. What's garnet's answer?


And don't forget that WM5's code base is the beginning of the premise that Jeff so eloquently states for the Longhorn->Light GUI. WM5 will merge the code base so that the OS runs relatively seamlessly on both the SmartPhone and PDA platform.

[jjesusfreak01]

And don't forget that WM5's code base is the beginning of the premise that Jeff so eloquently states for the Longhorn->Light GUI. WM5 will merge the code base so that the OS runs relatively seamlessly on both the SmartPhone and PDA platform.
Just to clarify, what do you mean by that? What will likely happen is that the LH light method will include some sort of MACE (Mobile Application Compatability Environment), but will run native code much closer to that of actual Windows. What Jeff proposes is alot closer to "real" Windows on a "PDA" than what you are saying.

[JAmerican]

And don't forget that WM5's code base is the beginning of the premise that Jeff so eloquently states for the Longhorn->Light GUI. WM5 will merge the code base so that the OS runs relatively seamlessly on both the SmartPhone and PDA platform.

What I find funny is that at the Palm Mobile Summit & DevCon 2005 (http://www.palmsource.com/events/devcon2005/pics.cgi?action=ind&day=pics1), the people there were using Windows XP. LOL

http://www.palmsource.com/events/devcon2005/pics1/px-IMG_0426_lowres.jpg

Anyway, I see that now Windows is developing Visual Studio .NET 2005 which has a whole bunch of new APIs for Windows Mobile development as well as regular Windows development. This makes it EASIER to program for Windows. In a sense, programming languages come about from others to make it easier and more favorable then others. It also makes the focus on a certain area of programming (games, and others) more potent. I think that if you feel that making coding easier makes programmers more lazy, then try coding with Java for Palm then get back to me.

JAmerican

[Surur]

Just to clarify, what do you mean by that? What will likely happen is that the LH light method will include some sort of MACE (Mobile Application Compatability Environment), but will run native code much closer to that of actual Windows. What Jeff proposes is alot closer to "real" Windows on a "PDA" than what you are saying.


.Net Compact Framework is a subset of the .Net API, meaning in theory that software written for CF can run in a full .Net environment also. .Net is like java, meant for portable code, which is why there is a Mono effort in Linux to port the environment over to linux.

Jeff''s dream of min-longhorn tablets would be meaningless without apps optimised for a small, high density screen. Running mobile apps on your desktop solves that problem.

Surur

[Cyker]

Before I DL this, is it informative or a rant...?

[soccrnj80]

..... go back to ppcthoughts. Jeff, I am so glad you called them out on this, I thought I might be acting irrational, getting pissed at their comments. You got it so right they sound like they r trying to "convert". They sound like Tom Cruise selling scientology, go sell crazy somewhere else. This is 1src, not ppcsrc.

[soccrnj80]

Wow somebody posted a cool graph above... You people are so predictable, just like your mothersite posted this week, like they do twice a year that the palm os is dead. Is your user community so bad/boring/deprived that you gotta come here and post bs like that?? It comes down to class, we got it.

[ptmin]

Hi
I have been enjoying these podcasts, and infact i have learnt much on this forum but these arguments here are hindering the valuable informations that will benefit palm users, hope this stops.

[soccrnj80]

The treo 650 is the smartphone everyone else is trying to be, your right Jeff. I would not give mine up. When are you going to take the leap like I have been telling you? You will love it, the 650 is the BEST. I am sticking to the topic, of the podcast. Great podcast as usual Jeff, thanks again for reaffirming what I know. Keep up the great work.

[Gekko]

kirvin's attitude is "agree with me or go away". this is not very conducive to a discussion forum. most people like to hear all sides - I know I do.

i've met his kind before - he likes to hear himself talk - and he likes to talk a lot more than he likes to listen. you see, he's *smarter* than you and I. and if we disagree with him, we must be "trolls", "wingnuts", or "cultists".

the funny part is if you examine his history of posts, he contradicts himself time and time again. for example, first he said cobalt 6.1 was stable. then he says it was a buggy mess. this leads me to believe he makes up most of this shiit as he goes - hoping nobody notices.

i must admit, i'm starting to find him mildly entertaining.

[soccrnj80]

It's funny, I remember Kirvin telling us months ago, before cobalt was killed why we didn't need or want it. He isn't contradicting himself. It made people realize just because Cobalt was palm os 6, not garnet os 5 didn't necessarily mean it was better to have it because it was newer. I was one of those people wanting cobalt because it was "newer" but he explained the downfalls, and why garnet was just right for our devices. It seems like alot of you people posting here haven't been listening, or been hearing selectively. I'll have to back him up on this, he did not contradict himself, you people gotta get your information right, and then post comments.

[Scott R]

Jeff, as one of the few people who provided a very on-topic technical comment concerning whether "saving state" was a good enough alternative to "real" multitasking, I'm a bit disappointed that you haven't responded to that.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff, as one of the few people who provided a very on-topic technical comment concerning whether "saving state" was a good enough alternative to "real" multitasking, I'm a bit disappointed that you haven't responded to that.
Refresh my memory, Scott. I think that got lost in the troll noise. This place is going down the Road of the Damned that PIC went down.

[Jeff Kirvin]

And while I refuse to respond to trolls directly, a few points of clarification.

Yes, I change my mind from time to time as new information becomes available. That's what reasonable people do. Only an arrogant fool would insist that he got it right the first time and stay "resolute" in the face of contradictory evidence.

I'm all for reasoned discussion, but only if all sides are willing to listen and be open minded. The problem with the trolls isn't that they point out flaws in Palm OS; we're perfectly capable of admitting those ourselves. The problem is that they're not here to talk about Palm OS. They're here to tell us how wrong we are for choosing Palm OS. And frankly, I'm tired of that kind of one-way propaganda.

[jjesusfreak01]

Only an arrogant fool would insist that he got it right the first time and stay "resolute" in the face of contradictory evidence.Yeah, the TH-55 is my 2ND PDA.

I agree entirely. There are flaws in every OS, and every device. Nothing is perfect, we can only try to get what is "best".

We are all expressing our opinions here. I for one am sure POS is the best OS, however I have to disagree with Jeff on his views regarding multitasking/threading, and I think we need a new version of the OS. Jeff doesnt try to force anything on us; he's not a scientologist. He is one of the most informative members of the 1src community, and is to be respected for his knowledge and opinions. Most of us certainly enjoy having him here.

[Vampire Lestat]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I simply love your Podcasts Jeff. I really look forward to them every week. Great entertainment. Controversy is fun.

Your T5 is a marvelous piece of technology and ergonomy, and anyone who claims that Palm OS is retrograde is simply wrong in my opinion.

I love my T5 and I will continue to use it. The LifeDrive sickened me a bit with its use of the HD for execution memory, but 1 bad unit doesn't ruin the company. The blue paint on the Z72 was also a crazy fiasco, but they fixed the unit eventually with the z72s.

As for PPC fans and their opinions/criticisms, we should embrace their thoughts and use them to innovate. The goal of all Palm engineers and Palm OS developers should be to maintain the pros of the current Palm Inc hardware and OS, all while copying and integrating the best parts of WM.

Being under constant attack can make you stronger if you are constantly trying to adapt to it.

As for the growth graph presented earlier, it is inconclusive. WM is growing but has still not yet matched Palm's best sales in the late 90s. Also, Palm's sales are somewhat steady and history (on the graph) has shown them able to have quick and powerful growth spikes when the right unit hits the market.

I congratulate Microsoft and its army of high paid brilliant programmers who are making WM better all the time. Microsoft may have beaten Netscape, but FireFox is a helluva a lot better than IE... fighting the big guy is not futile and winning is not impossible.

[strider_mt2k]

"To each his own" is right!

The Cowboy and the Rancher should be friends!

http://www.theatretusc.com/graphics/showpix/oklahoma.jpg

[Scott R]

Here's what I wrote (referring to your last article posted here and on writingonyourpalm.net)...

Jeff, I agree with much of what you said in your article. I think that palmOne will either buy outright the Garnet code at some point, or simply continue to "update" it themselves and could even begin referring to it as simply the Palm OS or something. They won't be able to accomplish all of what Cobalt aimed to do, but if they can fix bugs, standardize the versions on their more recent devices, create some new, useful APIs, and work closer with the developer community, I think this could be a good thing. With more Handspring folks in positions of authority (I think), there could be a renewed focus on integrating modern features while maintaining a focus on usability.

Now, as for multitasking...One of the biggest needs for multitasking is for quick task-switching. You may be in the middle of composing an email and want to look up someone's street address. You want to be able to quckly launch the Address Book app, look up the data, then quickly jump back to the email app and still see your partially-written email exactly as you left it in "compose" mode. I'm still trying to figure out if that's possible with the Palm OS. I *think* that it is, but it requires that app developers save state information (and possibly a *lot* of state information). Hi-Launcher (among other apps, probably), can let you pop up a menu with recently used apps. I just did a quick test of the type of scenario I just described with some of the built-in apps. Here's what I found...

The freebie Mail app that Tapwave supplies (which, notably, is based on PalmSource code) doesn't seem to remember state very well. I begin to compose an email, jump over to the Address Book, and then jump back to the email app and I see the list view, not my in-progress email. At least the email I started isn't lost completely (it's in my Outbox for some reason - it looks like there doesn't seem to be a "Drafts" folder in this app?).

I should add that jumping back to the Address Book app also doesn't remember state well. Instead of bringing me back to the "summary" view of a specific contact (which is where I left it), it brings me back to the top of the list view.

A test with the Date Book app had similar results. I started to write an appointment for a future date, jumped to the Address Book app, and jumped back and it was now showing me the current day.

Memo pad fared better. If I'm in the middle of composing a memo, jump out, and jump back, I'm back in the edit mode for that memo. It still wasn't perfect, though. For a true pseudo-multitasking experience, it should remember my cursor position as well, which it doesn't (the cursor gets repositioned back at the end of the memo).

Now, again, I *think* that all of this state data *could* be saved by each individual app if the developers saved more state info than they currently seem to be doing, but it's clear that not even PalmSource is doing it with the core apps (unless Tapwave broke some of this when tweaking the apps for the Zodiac - but I tend to doubt that). So, even if you can agree that saving state data might be "good enough", your points have little merit if there are few if any apps that are actually doing it the right way.

And none of this addresses the scenarios (few as they may be) where you might truly need *real* multitasking. For example, if you're using a GPS app, you might want to run some other app temporarily and return to the GPS app with it still tracking you. You can do that on a PPC. I don't think you can do that with any current Palm OS GPS app and it's quite possible that it isn't technically possible with Garnet.

Still, if developers could rally around saving detailed state data, combined with the true multitasking support that *is* possible (background music play, talking on the phone and using other apps on Garnet-powered smartphones, background email fetching), I imagine that this combination of real multitasking and pseudo-multitasking support could be "good enough" for the majority of users for the next couple of years. Again, though, the majority of apps currently do a poor job of saving state data, and knowing that "I can't believe it's not multitasking" may be *technically possible* on Garnet offers little satisfaction to me when I'm in the midst of a situation when I want to do it and the OS or apps aren't up to the task.

Let me close with saying simply that your last couple of articles seem to put a lot of blame on "lazy programmers." I'm just getting my feet wet in Palm OS programming, so I'm certainly not the best developer to speak up on this issue, but my take so far is that both PalmSource and palmOne have made it difficult to try and get any sort of advanced thing working right. So I guess developers can either program with a 1996 mentality and have their apps work pretty rock solidly, or they can try to push the limits, in which case they'll have to deal with the fun of trying to get their apps working reliably on multiple platforms and under most scenarios (in some cases unsuccessfully) thanks to the rather hobbled mess that Garnet has become. I would recommend that you direct more of your venom towards PalmSource and palmOne when it comes to the stability issues that Palm OS users have to deal with these days and not the developers who should, in many cases, be offered encouragement and kudos for pushing the platform to the limits in spite of, and not because of, palmOne and PalmSource.

[strider_mt2k]

Maybe we should all attend the chat this saturday?
(I don't know if I'll be able to, because I'll be at the in-laws, but it'll upset me to miss this one!)

I know this: If we get together where the talk is a little more "live" maybe we can find some middle ground and keep it social and light?
We can try, right?

Can the PPC guys attend the chat on their handhelds as it is now?
I know us NetFront guys can't.

[PDAPPC]

kirvin's attitude is "agree with me or go away". this is not very conducive to a discussion forum. most people like to hear all sides - I know I do.


Yes, I see this now.

The problem is that they're not here to talk about Palm OS. They're here to tell us how wrong we are for choosing Palm OS.

Geez, come down off the high horse. No one once said in the last couple of days you are wrong. Nobody said to use your T5 as a doorstop. You have been presented with some opposing views both technical and preference based. When presented with questions about "Palm's road map", and "why Corporate America has dropped the platform", you remain silent. So, you think that Garnet is feature laden enough to carry an entire platform for the next two years? At the rate technology is progressing, especially in the mobile area, Palm WILL be left in the dust.

Yeah, you don't like hearing that WM multi-tasks, can run multiple apps as quickly as a Palm can run a single app, and whose developer community is not left in the dark when changes are made to the OS. Ok, so does this hurt your feelings? I should hope not.

Thusfar it's been ok for soccrnj80, to grace us with his "indepth" knowledge of the shortcomings of WM. My above statements are the "State of the PDA Union" as stands today.

Now, how about some "discussion" about the above points?

ScottR: Nice post. Enjoyable reading.

[rcartwr]

Maybe we should all attend the chat this saturday?
(I don't know if I'll be able to, because I'll be at the in-laws, but it'll upset me to miss this one!)


Boy Mike, I can't believe that you would miss the 1src chat just because you are not willing to risk the impairment of future intimate relations with your wife.

Wuss :)

Rick C

[jjesusfreak01]

Boy Mike, I can't believe that you would miss the 1src chat just because you are not willing to risk the impairment of future intimate relations with your wife.
Maybe they dont have a high speed connection. You know how the chat is about that.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Scott: Yes, you're right. Many apps, especially the PIM apps from Palm, are not properly written to save state. If these apps properly conformed to the Palm OS programming guidelines (which have been in place since the Pilot), then switching between them would be completely seamless.

PDAPPC: Palm OS doesn't need a road map. It doesn't need to change much as it already does what it needs to do in this space. Palm OS isn't meant to compete with the Tablet PC, never was. There's simply not much else to do to it. The Treo works well as it is.

And given that the Treo is still selling as fast as Palm can make them, I'm going to need some actual proof from you that it's in trouble with corporate customers. Don't bother trying to post numbers, because you and I both know that the numbers don't tell the whole story. But even that misses a VITAL point.

Palm may not need to maintain a majority marketshare to remain profitable. Apple does just fine with 3% of the PC market. If WM marketshare grows, that might not be a bad thing for Palm at all. We simply don't know, and speculation is futile.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Lemme ask you naysayers something. What, precisely, does Palm OS really need to add? Where should the platform advance? Seriously. And I want real world benefits, not just features. Don't tell me biometric security, for example, without telling me why the user would care.

[PDAPPC]

Palm OS doesn't need a road map. It doesn't need to change much as it already does what it needs to do in this space. Palm OS isn't meant to compete with the Tablet PC, never was. There's simply not much else to do to it. The Treo works well as it is.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. So, you really feel that technology provider for computing devices doesn't need a road map because it's technology works in today's market? Tech is growing fast than you can launch your PIM data. 6 months from now, the Treo will old and look tired. There will be much slicker devices from variety of vendors that will be using WM5, heck even Nokia and Sony Ericcson will provide stiff competition for the consumers buck. History has proven that in this industry, if you don't innovate and update, you die. I have no doubt that Palm will continue to release slick hardware, but there will come a time (if not there already) that the Garnet OS will not be a viable OS for the hardware out there. One of the points that I have attempted to make is that the consumer is becoming more and more demanding of the devices that they choose to carry. As technology person myself, I cannot see Garnet holding up for much longer. This wouldn't be an issue if the Linux shell/OS was ready for production within a year's time.

And given that the Treo is still selling as fast as Palm can make them, I'm going to need some actual proof from you that it's in trouble with corporate customers. Don't bother trying to post numbers, because you and I both know that the numbers don't tell the whole story. But even that misses a VITAL point.

Treo's may be selling well but corporate support of the Palm platform as a whole is practically dead. I work for a Fortune 500 company as an Systems Designer and Application developer. I can tell you that when I joined the firm 5 years ago, Palm software (hotsync) was on the approved list of corporate applications. Today it is nowhere to be found. I also have the opportunity to interview and work with consultants from who have various corporate experiences, they all say the same thing : RIM and WM have infiltrated and taken a stronghold on the enterprise. I have IT manager friends in Insurance, finance, and pharmasutical and they say the same thing. I can't provide numbers, but my own experience and words of others seem to carry the same sentiment.

Palm may not need to maintain a majority marketshare to remain profitable. Apple does just fine with 3% of the PC market. If WM marketshare grows, that might not be a bad thing for Palm at all. We simply don't know, and speculation is futile.

You are making the assumption that Palm's profiit margins are as high as Apples. Remember, Apple has been selling their hardware at an extreme premium which is why they are profitable. Apple just woke up and figgured they needed to get into the marketshare game by releasing the Mac mini at attempt at the low-cost mass market. Also, Apple has benefited from the iPod "Halo" effect where consumers are considering other Apple hardware because of the perceived quality and integration of the Apple products. Is the Treo owner going to buy a LifeDrive because he likes it so much? I don't think so.

And I want real world benefits, not just features. Don't tell me biometric security, for example, without telling me why the user would care.

Are you kidding? Security is perhaps the number one issue that IT departments and Corps in general are pushing. An unattended and unsecured PDA/RIM device can cause the loss of millions of dollars to a corp. Do know how many computing devices are stolen each year? I don't what company you work for, but in the financial industry, issues such as biometric and other forms of security are paramount.

Why would I care? Jeez Jeff, did you ever consider the amount of information that people put on a PDA/phone device? I had the unfortunate experience of losing a PDA will both personal and corporate information. The possibility of identity theft is bad enough as is, imaging losing information for credit cards, SS numbers, etc.? I went out and got myself a 2750 which has bio security and it works damn well. All data on the PDA and storage card is can be encrypted on several levels and the PDA remains locked even through soft and hard resets.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. So, you really feel that technology provider for computing devices doesn't need a road map because it's technology works in today's market? Tech is growing fast than you can launch your PIM data. 6 months from now, the Treo will old and look tired. There will be much slicker devices from variety of vendors that will be using WM5, heck even Nokia and Sony Ericcson will provide stiff competition for the consumers buck. History has proven that in this industry, if you don't innovate and update, you die. I have no doubt that Palm will continue to release slick hardware, but there will come a time (if not there already) that the Garnet OS will not be a viable OS for the hardware out there.

I disagree. Palms have always lost to Windows Mobile in raw features. They always look worse on a spec sheet. But they continue to sell anyway. Why? Because they work better. I think Palm OS's advantages in UI and ease of use will continue to win over that segment of the market that values quality over "something shiny."

[toymaker]

Jeff,
I want to vary the topic a little to get to the subject of the podcast itself, I mean the file format.What happened to the Mp3 format link? Ever since you added 1src podcast to iTunes (31,32), the Mp3 dowload link now saves as a MPEG Video by default. I know how to change it so it reads as a .mp3 but other people that just follow your instructions for "Save Target As..." might get frustrated with not being able to listen on a portable device. Just checking in to see if other people have noticed this as well.

Thanks.
The Toymaker

P.S. I wouldn't worry about the PPC appologists, I think you must have hit a nerve. Maybe they have latent Palm OS envy. :D

[PDAPPC]

I disagree. Palms have always lost to Windows Mobile in raw features. They always look worse on a spec sheet. But they continue to sell anyway.ec Why? Because they work better. I think Palm OS's advantages in UI and ease of use will continue to win over that segment of the market that values quality over "something shiny."

That may be true, but WM devices have made tremendous strides in that market segment and is on pace to surpass the Palm platform (as the numbers indicate). 2-4 years ago, Palm had a commanding lead and prided itself on it's "ease of use". It is my personal opinion that many outgrow that ease of use and move on to "the features" as you so put it. I started out with a Handspring Visor and moved on to a Prism. I moved on because a Palm device was "too simple", not in terms of ease of use, but in features. I think you most definately see a larger percent of ex-palm-to-PPC converts now than at any time in the past.

[Voice of Reason]

The Voice of Reason asked me to post this on their behalf:


I haven't listened to any of Kirvin's PodRants, but given Palm's currently limited options, polishing PalmOS 5 (shining shiit?) may be their ONLY option. I posted this to Kent Pribbernow's site a few days ago:

http://www.pocketfactory.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1236&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:37 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>News Editor wrote:
Permanent link to PalmOS Is Dead; What Happens Next?

Excerpt: PalmOS is dead. No, that’s not a opinion, it’s a matter of fact. In case you’ve been living under a rock, two major (but rather quiet) announcements rocked the mobile world this week. PalmSource, the sole proprietor and developer of...


"Interesting article, Kent. While you repeat many of the things I've been saying for over a year, I disagree with some of your conclusions.

At this point, if PalmOS 5 is hacked any further it will probably blow up. Those idiots at Be just didn't know when to quit and kept stalling the development of PalmOS 6 to the point that PalmSource ran out of time. If something's not working and you need it ASAP, do you (a) continue working on it for another 18 months or (b) scrap it and start from scratch? The arrogant azzes at PalmSource kept picking (a) until they ran the company into the ground. Unfortunately, Plan (b) - PalmLinux - isn't exactly something you pull out of a hat. Or your azz.

I do feel PalmOS 5 can be cleaned up to the point that it remains quite serviceable for another year or two. For traditional tablet-style PDAs, PalmOS 5.2 or a debugged 5.4 could remain functional for another five years. EASILY. The typical PDA user requires very little power from their OS. The traditional PalmOS (1 - 5.2) stability + 128 MB or more of RealRAM™ + dual CF/SD expansion + OLED screens + the other hardware features that have been available for over three years would probably keep 99% of the market happy as long as the prices are reasonable.

Using PalmOS 5 on SmartPhones is a bit more problematic given its inherent limitations, but even this could be workable if the code is adequately cleaned up. The (PalmOS 5-derived) Treo 600 OS was so well thought out that it can overcome problems introduced by its inability to multitask. With the right suite of apps and adequate bug fixing + improved Quality Control, the Treo lineup could soldier on in nearly its current state for another 12 - 18 months. More important is Palm providing people with turnkey SOLUTIONS like "push" email that will leverage the Treo's hard-fought reputation and get Palm entrenched in the minds of businesses. Additionally, putting the Treo 600 OS essentially as-is on a small, light, inexpensive, slick cellphone like the Sony Ericsson T630 or T610 could save both Palm's and PalmSource's bacon.

PalmLinux is vaporware. It currently does not exist and even the most optimistic observer should not expect to see it in shipping devices until late 2006/early 2007. In 2003 when it became obvious that PalmOS 6 was going to be DOA, had PalmSource circled the wagons, dumped PalmOS 6 and hired outside help to work on PalmLinux the company might actually have done well supplying OSes to cellphone manufacturers. But they didn't.

But... if this has all simply been an elaborate charade to manipulate stockholders, Palm gets the last laugh. Countless millions have already been created from nothing with the IPOs, debt forgiving, "sale" of four letters (P A L M), etc. PalmSource is quickly becoming a worthless company, ripe for takeover. If Palm buys PalmSource for pennies on the dollar, it will all have come full circle and they get off scott free. By late 2006/early 2007, Palm could have the following assets if they play their cards right:

- PalmSource
- PalmOS 5 (fully developed + stable)
- PalmLinux (beta/semi-stable)
- Linux-based China MobileSoft-derived OS for ultra-cheap phones
- $500 SmartPhone running PalmOS (Treo 750)
- $500 SmartPhone running Windows Mobile (Treo 700) - cumming Real Soon Now!
- $200 phonecentric "AverageIQPhone" running PalmOS (Treo 200/IQ100)
- $100 phonecentric "Not-So-SmartPhone" running PalmOS (Treo 100/IQ70)
- $100 PalmOS PDA
- $200 PalmOS PDA
- $300 PalmOS PDA
- $400 PalmOS PDA
- A lot of money

PalmSource has been gutted and will soon be a prime target for a buyout. While some people that are now gone deserved their fate (what exactly did David Nagel or Michael Mace do to earn their salaries?) they threw out a few babies in the bathwater. (There was an interesting thread at another site in which Michael Mace shameless dodged every real question posed. The ultra-queer moderator there, Ewen censored almost every post I made, but the thread is still an interesting read if you haven't seen it yet. http://www.allaboutpalm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44 The rest of his site sucks monkey balls, though and I'd be surprised to see the site still around in a year.) PalmSource currently lacks the engineering talent to develop PalmLinux by itself within a year, but this will all get outsourced when Palm takes over. In fact, the money Palm fronted PalmSource is probaby earmarked to help realize these projects.

You have been deceived, Kent. I guarantee Palm will have the last laugh or my name's not TVoR.

TVoR, Inc."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


The main flaw in the "Garnet Forever" strategy is PalmOS 5's inability to perform TRUE multitasking in a SmartPhone environment. To put it bluntly, a Smartphone OS that cannot multitask has no future. Hacks, kludges, workarounds and other 1337 hAxx0R techniques won't cut it for long. If you have a wirelessly connected device, presumably email and Internet usage will be priorities. And - as always - when you are performing those type of activities it is ONLY NATURAL to want to be accessing other applications (e.g. word processor) at the same time and to not lose webpages when temporarily "minimizing" the browser.

The "Garnet Forever" strategy buys Palm a little time, but PalmLinux won't be ready soon enough to keep Palm competitive with Windows Mobile. With the availability of Styletap (http://styletap.com/) the incentive to accept any compromises just to be able to use Palm apps is significantly reduced. Add WisBar and "free" push email via MS Exchange and suddenly even the vaunted Treo design will have its work cut out for it trying to survive if only running PalmOS 5. So if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...

;-)

[toymaker]

That may be true, but WM devices have made tremendous strides in that market segment and is on pace to surpass the Palm platform (as the numbers indicate). 2-4 years ago, Palm had a commanding lead and prided itself on it's "ease of use". It is my personal opinion that many outgrow that ease of use and move on to "the features" as you so put it. I started out with a Handspring Visor and moved on to a Prism. I moved on because a Palm device was "too simple", not in terms of ease of use, but in features. I think you most definately see a larger percent of ex-palm-to-PPC converts now than at any time in the past.

I agree with you in regard to the average mindset of the masses, and I must admit I was one of the almost converts. I bought a PPC a year and a half ago thinking I also had outgrown the features on my palm (Clie). After commiting to it as my only PDA and giving myself a few months as a learning curve, I liked some of the new features and little touches but became dis-enchanted with the tightwire balancing of the memory and even with very few third party apps I found it to crash way too often. Microsoft is very good at wizards to help people through different set-ups like Bluetooth and feature slickness. But the one aspect they seem to constantly neglect is the core use of PDA's- PIM features! Most frustrating for me were fickle Alarms and Calander layout.

I use my Palm as I need a PDA, others use their PPC as they need. Different devices do fulfill different needs, however I do have one thing to add. While a PPC is exactly what some people need, I think too many people are mistakenly lured away from Palms with false expectations of how PPC's work. Unfortunatley may people don't fully realize this before they are commited to whatever device they were enticed by. And let's admit it, not may people can easily get rid of a $300 device to get another one right away without loosing money. My Father-In_Law just re-entered the Palm OS camp and can finally feel free to admit it was a mistake for him. I think that the current market trends reflect this "grass is always greener on the other side" mindset and in time will even out.

[Voice of Reason]

Here's what I wrote (referring to your last article posted here and on writingonyourpalm.net)...

Jeff, I agree with much of what you said in your article. I think that palmOne will either buy outright the Garnet code at some point, or simply continue to "update" it themselves and could even begin referring to it as simply the Palm OS or something. They won't be able to accomplish all of what Cobalt aimed to do, but if they can fix bugs, standardize the versions on their more recent devices, create some new, useful APIs, and work closer with the developer community, I think this could be a good thing. With more Handspring folks in positions of authority (I think), there could be a renewed focus on integrating modern features while maintaining a focus on usability.

Now, as for multitasking...One of the biggest needs for multitasking is for quick task-switching. You may be in the middle of composing an email and want to look up someone's street address. You want to be able to quckly launch the Address Book app, look up the data, then quickly jump back to the email app and still see your partially-written email exactly as you left it in "compose" mode. I'm still trying to figure out if that's possible with the Palm OS. I *think* that it is, but it requires that app developers save state information (and possibly a *lot* of state information). Hi-Launcher (among other apps, probably), can let you pop up a menu with recently used apps. I just did a quick test of the type of scenario I just described with some of the built-in apps. Here's what I found...

The freebie Mail app that Tapwave supplies (which, notably, is based on PalmSource code) doesn't seem to remember state very well. I begin to compose an email, jump over to the Address Book, and then jump back to the email app and I see the list view, not my in-progress email. At least the email I started isn't lost completely (it's in my Outbox for some reason - it looks like there doesn't seem to be a "Drafts" folder in this app?).

I should add that jumping back to the Address Book app also doesn't remember state well. Instead of bringing me back to the "summary" view of a specific contact (which is where I left it), it brings me back to the top of the list view.

A test with the Date Book app had similar results. I started to write an appointment for a future date, jumped to the Address Book app, and jumped back and it was now showing me the current day.

Memo pad fared better. If I'm in the middle of composing a memo, jump out, and jump back, I'm back in the edit mode for that memo. It still wasn't perfect, though. For a true pseudo-multitasking experience, it should remember my cursor position as well, which it doesn't (the cursor gets repositioned back at the end of the memo).

Now, again, I *think* that all of this state data *could* be saved by each individual app if the developers saved more state info than they currently seem to be doing, but it's clear that not even PalmSource is doing it with the core apps (unless Tapwave broke some of this when tweaking the apps for the Zodiac - but I tend to doubt that). So, even if you can agree that saving state data might be "good enough", your points have little merit if there are few if any apps that are actually doing it the right way.

And none of this addresses the scenarios (few as they may be) where you might truly need *real* multitasking. For example, if you're using a GPS app, you might want to run some other app temporarily and return to the GPS app with it still tracking you. You can do that on a PPC. I don't think you can do that with any current Palm OS GPS app and it's quite possible that it isn't technically possible with Garnet.

Still, if developers could rally around saving detailed state data, combined with the true multitasking support that *is* possible (background music play, talking on the phone and using other apps on Garnet-powered smartphones, background email fetching), I imagine that this combination of real multitasking and pseudo-multitasking support could be "good enough" for the majority of users for the next couple of years. Again, though, the majority of apps currently do a poor job of saving state data, and knowing that "I can't believe it's not multitasking" may be *technically possible* on Garnet offers little satisfaction to me when I'm in the midst of a situation when I want to do it and the OS or apps aren't up to the task.

Let me close with saying simply that your last couple of articles seem to put a lot of blame on "lazy programmers." I'm just getting my feet wet in Palm OS programming, so I'm certainly not the best developer to speak up on this issue, but my take so far is that both PalmSource and palmOne have made it difficult to try and get any sort of advanced thing working right. So I guess developers can either program with a 1996 mentality and have their apps work pretty rock solidly, or they can try to push the limits, in which case they'll have to deal with the fun of trying to get their apps working reliably on multiple platforms and under most scenarios (in some cases unsuccessfully) thanks to the rather hobbled mess that Garnet has become. I would recommend that you direct more of your venom towards PalmSource and palmOne when it comes to the stability issues that Palm OS users have to deal with these days and not the developers who should, in many cases, be offered encouragement and kudos for pushing the platform to the limits in spite of, and not because of, palmOne and PalmSource.

Good try, Scott, but unfortunately PalmOS/Palm/PalmSource won't even try to facilitate the kludge of Saved States™ approximating (sort of) the experience of multitasking. I've used McPhling for years (and before that SwitchHack) to compensate for the PalmOS app-switching UI deficiencies, and it helps a lot. But as you noted in your post, there are many situations in which true multitasking is essential in order to perform a given operation. "Multitasking has its priviledges™".

There are a few hacks that could be optimized and better publicized/documented for developers, but I suspect Palm does not want to take responsibility for such abuse of PalmOS, much like Palm never officially "approved" of the use of HackMaster + EVPlugBase. To expect developers to seek out such unsupported tricks is expecting far too much of these individuals. I'm amazed that people like Marc Blank have perservered with trying to squeeze that last drop of functionality out of PalmOS 5. Most other developers would have quickly given up when faced with such obstacles.

Bottom line: don't expect PalmOS 5 to EVER provide you with even a close simulation of multitasking. But what else could you expect from a ten year old OS originally intended to just run simple PIM apps on primitive hardware? Sorry. PalmOS 5 should have been EOL in 2004. Apparently someone forgot to tell PalmSource this...

[TVoR]

Palm may not need to maintain a majority marketshare to remain profitable. Apple does just fine with 3% of the PC market. If WM marketshare grows, that might not be a bad thing for Palm at all. We simply don't know, and speculation is futile.


Do you REALLY believe this? Wow. If you really believe this line of thinking, it's obviously pointless even debating these issues with you.

[smoothjordan]

I like your podcasts, in general, Mr.Kirvin, but what you say don't talk down on the T|5, i feel your being hypocritical, because in more than one podcast have I heard you mention the "Missing screws, faulty digitizer, broken slider..." rant of the T|3. I was bothered by the comment that PPC Troll's are a bad thing. When it becomes excessive, yes it is a bad thing, but in moderation it can balance it out. It's obvious this site is for Palm OS lovers, so if we didn't have PPC users coming in and telling us how crappy it is, we wouldn't really gain a full appreciation for the OS, kind of like not knowing what happy is unless you know what's sad... But other than that, I really do enjoy your podcasts as well as Mr. Alan G's. Keep up the great work! :)

[Voice of Reason]

Lemme ask you naysayers something. What, precisely, does Palm OS really need to add? Where should the platform advance? Seriously. And I want real world benefits, not just features. Don't tell me biometric security, for example, without telling me why the user would care.

1) Real Multitasking™. Even the ability to run just TWO apps a time would be a HUGE improvement. [And are you finally admitting that PalmOS can't multitask now?] Wirelessly connected devices that can't multitask make as much sense as a car with square wheels. I assume you realize this now.

2) Bulletproof security. Licensing TealLock would be the best way to quickly add security to PalmOS, since Palm lacks the engineering ability to code anything even half as good. Positioning PalmOS devices as business tools (smart marketing angle, as RIM has proved) means you need robust security for obvious reasons.

3) Properly implemented NVFS support. I feel NVFS (CrapRAM™) is a step backward, but if you're going to use it at least make sure your devices don't choke on it. Palm now has tarnished its reputation for stability by rushing a series of buggy tweaked versions of PalmOS 5 onto the market. [Data "Mangler"/incompatible PIM databases, NVFS bug, Tungsten T 3 SD card toasting, unstable VersaMail, unstable LifeDrive memory architecture, "Find" bug... each new problem further undermines Palm's legacy. Now it's Windows Mobile users' turn to laugh...]

4) Host USB ability (like the LOOX 720). Long overdue flexibility. Finally use your PDA as a true extension of your desktop.

5) A proper filesystem. 'Nuff said.

6) Bug-free implementation of current Bluetooth (all profiles) and Wi-Fi protocols. Again, fairly self-evident.

7) A built-in backup application. Why does my 1999 TRGpro have a backup app but even the latest Palms lack one? And these are supposed to be devices we trust our data to? Get serious.

8) Proper support for Mac. Alienate the Mac Cultists and prepare for a PR-damaging whine and chese party not worth the cost of licencing The Missing Sync for those 208 remaining Palm owners that also use Macs.

9) Push email. Fail to make it easy to set up and you can kiss any hope of sustained business sales of Treos once Microsoft brings out it's own MS Exchange support. Visualize a Sprint Treo 700 running Windows Mobile and StyleTap™ Platform and ask yourself why ANY business customers would choose the PalmOS version of the Treo.

10) Bug-free standard apps: email program, video player (+ simple encoder), MP3 player, advanced browser (license NetFront). It's kinda hard to make a convincing case for your platform if you can't even ship a modern set of apps with the OS.

There you have it. No doubt we're all looking forward to hearing your response. And then hearing you change your mind a day later.

By the way: nice job burning your (flimsy) bridges with PalmSource. I'd love to see PalmSource's Dianne Hackborn get you alone in a room for five minutes...

[Surur]

Jeff, no matter what your ideology says, the market has spoken, and the message its sending is that Palm is doing SOMETHING wrong, and has been doing so for many years (they have been declining since 2001). Instead of telling everyone that Palm Garnet is perfect, you need to ask what Palm can do better. Of course if you ARE satisfied with 3% marketshare then dont fix your PDA, but also expect to lose developr support, and not to have the latest apps (like skype, proper acrobat reader etc).

For the people who want Palm OS to survive, the main thing to do is to update to a new OS. I can critisize POS all day, but there is very little to say about Symbian, which is a major WM competitor. It cant even be critical of the Zaurus line either. This is because these are proper grown up OS's.

In summary then, upgrading to a new grown-up OS (cobalt, linux, whatever) is necessary, not just for the sake of the user experience (which you apprently feel, even with frequent two minute resets, is perfect) but to ensure there ARE users in two years time to have that experience.

Surur

[Simony]

Careful guys, The Voice of Reason (sic) & Surur are well known trolls who normally frequent palminfocenter.com. It's a pity that they have now come here to spread their bile, as part of yet another M$ inspired Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt campaign.

OTOH ... given the latest troll offensive here and on other websites, M$ must be getting pretty desperate about WinMob. To put this in perspective, ask yourself this: has the WinMob division made a profit ... like, EVER? No. Let's see if WinMob survives another 12 months. (Remember, Mr Gates didn't build his company from nothing by pouring money down the drain.)

[Cyker]

ScottR: This is a bit hazey but IIRC there are ways of doing the save state; I seem to recall reading about it in the PalmOS API docs, although RealLife(tm) has made me put my learning on hold so I haven't checked for a while.
From what I remember, it basically involved inserting code into the functions that PalmOS calls when it switches into/out of your app.

Now, because PalmOS uses a raw task-switching system, any state you wish to save has to be coded explicitly by the coder and then explicitly restored later. There were some examples in the API docs for basic things - I think the main one they did was for a Memopad-style app (Very easy; Just save doc and cursor pos and then restore on entry).

However, they caution against going overboard, because doing things too fine-grained will slow down switching (I suspect this warning is outdated; It mainly applies to OS3.5 systems IMHO).
Zdocj has the option of being super-accurate or rough in it's state switching (First one records the file, record and byte you were at; Latter just does file and record chunk.)

This is a double-edged sword; On the one hand it is more work for the coder, but on the other hand it's faster and you have more control.
On PPC, you get it for free as part of the pre-emptive task-scheduler - the coder doesn't have to do anything - but the tradeoff is control; AFAIK the coder has no control over the process (Same as in Windows) - it dumps and restores the entire state of your prog every timeslice.

This is why PPCs have a lot less 'livelyness' compared to equivalent spec Palms (NVFS and Hard disk in LD negate this advantage somewhat for PalmOS however), and why PPCs used to have the perception of being 'slow', despite having 200MHz CPUs vs 16MHz Palms
However, the technological arms race is really benefitting them a lot more than Palm because as they get more RAM and CPU power, the resource penalties are felt a lot less - This is why PPCs have much higher specs than most Palms; They have been aggressively ramping the CPU and RAM because they know that they really need it to give an optimum user experience.

I'd say PPCs are just about coming into their optimum phase as we're now finally getting fast low-drain CPUs which can handle the resource swaps fast enough that the user doesn't feel them anymore.
PalmOS doesn't really benefit much from any more CPU speed because it hit its optimum ages ago (Frankly I suspect they're still wondering where to go from there...!). The only things PalmOS will really benefit from a fast CPU is stuff like intensive spreadsheet calculations, multimedia and games, but these are things which Palms were never really designed for and it does show (Although Sony and Tapwave have proven that it's definitely doable!).

Prior to OS5, PalmOS had the advantage in extensibility - The relatively simple nature of it made it easy to modify, and we had stuff like the DIA, HiRes+, wireless and Wav/MIDI sound.
PPC's were a bit stuffed in this regard; Almost all the early PPCs were exactly the same because what you could do was dictated by the OS - If the OS supported x and y features but not z, you couldn't put z in.

Nowadays, the extra complexity of OS5 has made system extensions more dangerous to code, but on the PPC MS seems to have opened up the API a bit more (At least I think so; I know a lot of things are still need hardcoded OS support - VGA screens for example - but I think nifty bits like the fingerprint scanner are custom OEM mods, not originally supported by the OS. I could be wrong 'tho about either, since most of my PPC info is second hand...)

[Scott R]

Cyker, yes you've accurately represented the situation AFAIK. Saving and restoring state is left to the programmer. The amount of code required can get quite long for a complex app where you've got a form up with several text fields present, for instance, when the user decides to quit the app to use something else. Saving that data to the DB before you allow the OS to bring the user to the app they want to use now will have a performance hit. Likewise, restoring that data the next time they launch the app will also have a performance hit. So, for all but the simplest of apps, it seems that you can *either* have a slower Palm OS PDA that tries to simulate task switching, or a snappy PDA that simply shuts down and lets the user start from the app's main form the next time they run it.

And as you said, the increase in CPU speed, decrease in RAM price, and time for MS' developers to get rid of most of the more annoying bugs has helped make the PPC platform quite compelling. The last holdout for Palm had been native support for landscape and high-res screens while PPCs were still stuck with portrait mode and 240x320. Now that has changed and the only thing the Palm OS really has in its favor are a huge number of niche apps (which can be absconded now thanks to StyleTap) and usability. And let's talk about usability for a sec...

I tried out the PPC platform a few times, owning both an Compaq iPaq 3630 and HP iPaq h4415 (I still own both, BTW). The usability issues were what drove me nuts and caused me to go back. Well, that and some truly compelling devices for the Palm OS that still have no equal in the PPC world (the Zodiac with its native landscape orientation and gaming friendly controls and the Treo series with their integrated thumbboards and OS tweaks which practically eliminate the need to use a stylus). Here's the thing...it's far easier for MS to fix much of the usability issues (much of which could be resolved simply by offering some decent PIM apps, including a task switcher, and changing their UI design guidelines to get people *away* from using that little "OK" button). The core OS doesn't need to change, though, as it's quite capable as-is, supporting multitasking, all file formats, and the ability to run apps off of a card (which, there you go, are probably my three biggest complaints with the Palm OS). For the Palm OS, the situation is much trickier. They need to revamp the underlying OS and even their much-praised UI doesn't feel quite right on devices that don't conform to the old portrait-mode Graffiti-always-visible stylus-focused mindset.

Honestly, I think the situation for PDAs is ripe for the taking for MS. They just need to *choose* to fix the UI issues. The good news is that after several years peddling numerous OS updates with few if any UI issues being fixed (and some new ones being introduced), I don't know that I have much confidence that there's any desire (or awareness) on their part to do this. What I've seen of WM5 certainly looks like the same old thing to me on that front.

So as I've said before, the present situation for consumers, IMO, is not that WM/PPC is "the greatest" or the Palm OS is "the greatest." Rather, they both suck more than they ought to, just for different reasons.

[Reggie]

In summary then, upgrading to a new grown-up OS (cobalt, linux, whatever) is necessary, not just for the sake of the user experience (which you apprently feel, even with frequent two minute resets, is perfect) but to ensure there ARE users in two years time to have that experience.
Surur

Surur, so you think that the Palm-Linux is a good step for Palm? Of course it's not yet out, but are you excited about it?

[Surur]

Scott, you have not said anything I disagree with. Can I just add that with the mobile phone focus of both OS's these days, usability has become much more of an issue, and WM 5.0 does address some problems. Its much more navigable just with a keyboard, and of course they introduced the soft keys at the bottom. MS is of course being stubborn regarding the close button, but there are numerous free fixes for this.

One solution for Palm would be to just port their GUI onto the Win CE 5 kernel. Styletap has shown that it does not have to be such a huge issue as we think. Stranger things have happened e.g. Apple's move to Intel processors. On the front page there is now a rapport that Apple software runs faster on Intel hardware than on dual PowerPC's. I'm sure this is to the chagrin of all the Apple fanboys, who have denied this through the years.

Just because a move such as this would be distasteful and would require some-one to eat humble pie does not mean its not the right thing to do.

Surur

[Surur]

As Scott had said, its the underpinnings of the OS thats the problem, not the GUI. I know Palm would rather die than use win ce, and of course using linux will automatically give them the ABM (Anyone But Microsoft) boost.

I do however think that shifting to linux will remove a whole class of arguments, and move things to what really matters, such as how many clicks to enter an appointment. Its just that Styletap has shown that moving to Win CE would be the easiest.

Did you know Symbian can address 2 GB of memory?

Surur

[jjesusfreak01]

1) Real Multitasking™. Even the ability to run just TWO apps a time would be a HUGE improvement. [And are you finally admitting that PalmOS can't multitask now?] Wirelessly connected devices that can't multitask make as much sense as a car with square wheels. I assume you realize this now.Im not sure what you mean? It makes no less sense than a non wireless device that cant multitask.

2) Bulletproof security. Licensing TealLock would be the best way to quickly add security to PalmOS, since Palm lacks the engineering ability to code anything even half as good. Positioning PalmOS devices as business tools (smart marketing angle, as RIM has proved) means you need robust security for obvious reasons.Not going to happen. They would much rather write their own app. They will tell themselves it aint worth it to license an app when they can write it. However, they wont write it.

3) Properly implemented NVFS support. I feel NVFS (CrapRAM™) is a step backward, but if you're going to use it at least make sure your devices don't choke on it. Palm now has tarnished its reputation for stability by rushing a series of buggy tweaked versions of PalmOS 5 onto the market. [Data "Mangler"/incompatible PIM databases, NVFS bug, Tungsten T 3 SD card toasting, unstable VersaMail, unstable LifeDrive memory architecture, "Find" bug... each new problem further undermines Palm's legacy. Now it's Windows Mobile users' turn to laugh...]Yeah, the LD doesnt have the best system, but as I said in my interview with Tyler on the PalmAddict podcast, it is a first try, and I am hoping that it will get better. In a perfect world, the implementation of the NVFS would have been such that programs wouldnt know the difference unless they wanted to (IE, programs could directly access the real RAM if they wanted to).

4) Host USB ability (like the LOOX 720). Long overdue flexibility. Finally use your PDA as a true extension of your desktop.Now, this would be cool. I believe one of Sony's PDAs (NR70?) had something like this, so it is plausible. Palm would claim that it bloats the OS; they know alot about that.

5) A proper filesystem. 'Nuff said.Yeah, you already said that.

6) Bug-free implementation of current Bluetooth (all profiles) and Wi-Fi protocols. Again, fairly self-evident.I'll have to concede that.

7) A built-in backup application. Why does my 1999 TRGpro have a backup app but even the latest Palms lack one? And these are supposed to be devices we trust our data to? Get serious.Definitely agreed. Palm has a backup program, they just sell it separately. All three of the Sony's in my house have a backup program.

8) Proper support for Mac. Alienate the Mac Cultists and prepare for a PR-damaging whine and chese party not worth the cost of licencing The Missing Sync for those 208 remaining Palm owners that also use Macs.Yeah, I would like them to send me a copy, but its not going to happen. Wishful thinking. They want you to upgrade.

9) Push email. Fail to make it easy to set up and you can kiss any hope of sustained business sales of Treos once Microsoft brings out it's own MS Exchange support. Visualize a Sprint Treo 700 running Windows Mobile and StyleTap™ Platform and ask yourself why ANY business customers would choose the PalmOS version of the Treo.On a Treo maybe, but not standard on their other Palms.

10) Bug-free standard apps: email program, video player (+ simple encoder), MP3 player, advanced browser (license NetFront). It's kinda hard to make a convincing case for your platform if you can't even ship a modern set of apps with the OS.Not a harsh request. They provide an MP3 player for almost all of their PDAs, a browser for most, and video and email for most that are capable. The truth is that there are free programs like TCPMP that can handle video better than any built in player, and TCPMP also handles audio. As for the browser, Palm has licensed Netfront, and the newer versions of the web browser are based on it.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff,
I want to vary the topic a little to get to the subject of the podcast itself, I mean the file format.What happened to the Mp3 format link? Ever since you added 1src podcast to iTunes (31,32), the Mp3 dowload link now saves as a MPEG Video by default. I know how to change it so it reads as a .mp3 but other people that just follow your instructions for "Save Target As..." might get frustrated with not being able to listen on a portable device. Just checking in to see if other people have noticed this as well.

Thanks.
The Toymaker

P.S. I wouldn't worry about the PPC appologists, I think you must have hit a nerve. Maybe they have latent Palm OS envy. :D


I'm not sure what's going on there. I haven't changed the way I do things since the beginning. I'll look into it.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Do you REALLY believe this? Wow. If you really believe this line of thinking, it's obviously pointless even debating these issues with you.

Yeah, I really believe you can be profitable as a business without owning a dominant share of the market. This isn't a revolutionary idea as thousands of businesses do it every day. You're the only one that seems to have this ludicrous all-or-nothing mindset. The world doesn't really work that way.

[Cyker]

Surur: Your idea for moving the UI onto the PPC core has some potential, but I doubt it will happen for a number of reasons:
1) Microsoft aren't going to let Palm do that, and I doubt Palm would ever do that either.
2) What you are proposing is definitely non-trivial; PalmOS programs EXPECT to have control of the PDA while they are running, with only some provision for being interrupted. Trying to run them natively as fully multitasking apps would probably break more things than NVFS and OS5 combine which would totally defy the point.
3) The PPC multitasking system is crap. The whole task scheduling core borrows a lot from Windows NT's paradigm, and while this is good for a desktop PC, it's really really bad for a resource limited PDA. PPC's would have been a lot nippier and less bloaty if they'd gone for a light task-scheduler like Linux's one than a heavy scheduler like the Windows one. Hell, even OS/2 and the Amiga had more efficient cores. (And yes, I appreciate the irony of using both those examples ;))

I personally think that, for what you lot are talking about, the direction PalmSource were moving with Cobolt was the right one - They had a very fast lightweight task switcher which was custom written as opposed to ported and trimmed. However, you have to understand Cobolt is NOT PalmOS - It is/would have been effectively a totally new OS; PalmOS apps would NOT have been natively compatible, but would have run on it in the way Windows 3.1 apps ran on OS/2, or Win32 apps run in Linux/WINE.


To my mind however, all this is moot - Surur, you and the PPC-en seem to be arguing that PalmOS should, basically, be more like PPC.

Lets face it, this is a silly argument. If people want a PDA with PPC-type features, they'd buy a PPC!

Palm's problem is they've forgotten why they were so popular in the first place. At the moment they seem to be repositioning themselves to take on PPC head-on. If they do this they will get buried. Palms are not good platforms for feature-creep. Their strengths are simplicity and funtionality.
I know it sounds good, all this stuff like HostUSB support and multitasking and kitchen sinks, but for the majority of people such features will be wasted and you just end up with a huge leaky OS core for nothing.

I bought my Clie because it did pretty much all I wanted - I just couldn't be arsed with all the bells and whistles and hoops on the PPCs. I like how it takes me 1-2 taps to get to almost any piece of data on my system. However it's been flexible enough that I can extend and enhance it at will (Like the Landscape app and TCPMP).
As a Linuxen that part does appeal to me; While Windows NT goes with a similar kitchen-sink mentality, Linux allows you to pick and choose - You start off with a tiny set of apps, which frankly don't do much, but you can add what you want until your system is the way YOU want it, not the way Microsoft or IBM or Apple want it.

I sometimes wonder if Palm should take a look at Apple's business model - Apple are a hardware company but make some of the coolest software around - Did you know that they do not make any profit directly from iTunes? That is why they can sell stuff so cheap there. However, there is a method behind their madness: People pay a premium for that hardware because it's the only way to get said software!
At the same time, they are maintaining a fairly open system and encouraging devs to create hardware and software for their platform. It seems to be working pretty well for them...

[jlariviere]

Jeff,
In your 1src podcast #32 dated 07/13/2005 you made a few statements that I disagree with and a few that I agree with.
First off, I use a T3, but don't consider myself a cultist; I also don't bash the T5. The T3 had problems before Palm released an update, so did the T5. I am sure that both / all devices still have problems after as well.
You asked PPC users 'trolls' to stop bashing Palm users. I would personally appreciate it if you would not attack T3 users as well. I use a T3, and I have not had problems with the screws, I have not had problems with the Digitizer, I have not had problems with the Slider.
Some of the reasons why I purchased a T3 was because there was a Slider, because of the Voice recorder, and because it had a Vibrating Alarm.
I like the collapsible screen because the number of programs that support 320*480 is still significantly lower than 320*320 programs. The slider is not lit when collapsed, so battery life is increased, and if you have a collapsible slider, you have a smaller footprint, which I prefer.
I only use the Vibrating alarm.
Battery life is not that good comparatively, but it is good enough for me. I almost never have a low battery warning. I charge it at night, and use it during the day. If I played games for hours on end, or watched movies, then I would have problems. For those times, I am almost never so far away from an electrical outlet that I can't charge & use at the same time.
In My Opinion, If future devices don't have a vibrating alarm, then they aren't as good. If they don't have a collapsible screen, than they aren't as good. Again, that is just my opinion as a consumer who knows what I want.
The T3 is not a piece of junk compared to the T5 or any other device; the T3 is not a flaky, temporary device; it works just fine for what I need. To quote you please "Respect our choices".
If I have missunderstood you opinion of the T3 from you podcast, I appologize.
Thanks for the podcast,
Jeremie
---
Happy T3 User

[PDAPPC]

3) The PPC multitasking system is crap. The whole task scheduling core borrows a lot from Windows NT's paradigm, and while this is good for a desktop PC, it's really really bad for a resource limited PDA. PPC's would have been a lot nippier and less bloaty if they'd gone for a light task-scheduler like Linux's one than a heavy scheduler like the Windows one. Hell, even OS/2 and the Amiga had more efficient cores. (And yes, I appreciate the irony of using both those examples ;))


Regardless of the technical issues, the multitasking allows me to run my GPS application and while it's running go to my PIM look up a contact then jump back to the GPS app that's still tracking! It works and it works well. I use that example because I have done it dozens of times and represents the ability of the OS to do it. Do I need to do this all the time? No. But it's nice to have a platform that provides that type of flexibility. Can the same thing be achieved with a Palm device, I don't know. Maybe it can, or maybe it can't.

Palm's problem is they've forgotten why they were so popular in the first place. At the moment they seem to be repositioning themselves to take on PPC head-on. If they do this they will get buried. Palms are not good platforms for feature-creep. Their strengths are simplicity and funtionality.


And why do you think Palm(whatever) felt the need to persue or "take-on" the PPC head on? At one time wasn't it the other way around? Perhaps Palm felt the need to divert itself because it knew that consumer WANTS these things regardless of whether they think they need them or not. Hey, some people buy 3.2 HyperThreading PC's just for webbrowsing and excel spreadsheets. If the consumer public just wanted a simple organizer, wouldn't everyone be buying a Zire 32 (or whatever that low-end Zire is called)?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff,
In your 1src podcast #32 dated 07/13/2005 you made a few statements that I disagree with and a few that I agree with.
First off, I use a T3, but don't consider myself a cultist; I also don't bash the T5. The T3 had problems before Palm released an update, so did the T5. I am sure that both / all devices still have problems after as well.
You asked PPC users 'trolls' to stop bashing Palm users. I would personally appreciate it if you would not attack T3 users as well. I use a T3, and I have not had problems with the screws, I have not had problems with the Digitizer, I have not had problems with the Slider.
Some of the reasons why I purchased a T3 was because there was a Slider, because of the Voice recorder, and because it had a Vibrating Alarm.
I like the collapsible screen because the number of programs that support 320*480 is still significantly lower than 320*320 programs. The slider is not lit when collapsed, so battery life is increased, and if you have a collapsible slider, you have a smaller footprint, which I prefer.
I only use the Vibrating alarm.
Battery life is not that good comparatively, but it is good enough for me. I almost never have a low battery warning. I charge it at night, and use it during the day. If I played games for hours on end, or watched movies, then I would have problems. For those times, I am almost never so far away from an electrical outlet that I can't charge & use at the same time.
In My Opinion, If future devices don't have a vibrating alarm, then they aren't as good. If they don't have a collapsible screen, than they aren't as good. Again, that is just my opinion as a consumer who knows what I want.
The T3 is not a piece of junk compared to the T5 or any other device; the T3 is not a flaky, temporary device; it works just fine for what I need. To quote you please "Respect our choices".
If I have missunderstood you opinion of the T3 from you podcast, I appologize.
Thanks for the podcast,
Jeremie
---
Happy T3 User


Yeah, sorry about that. I'm human, too, and I just got a little tired of T3 users calling me an idiot for preferring a T5. I lashed out and I shouldn't have. My apologies. There are trolls out there that give rational T3 users like yourself a bad name and I forgot that there are good people that use that device.

[Jeff Kirvin]

And why do you think Palm(whatever) felt the need to persue or "take-on" the PPC head on? At one time wasn't it the other way around? Perhaps Palm felt the need to divert itself because it knew that consumer WANTS these things regardless of whether they think they need them or not. Hey, some people buy 3.2 HyperThreading PC's just for webbrowsing and excel spreadsheets. If the consumer public just wanted a simple organizer, wouldn't everyone be buying a Zire 32 (or whatever that low-end Zire is called)?
No. I've owned many Pocket PCs, got tired of babysitting them and came back to Palm. First the Zire 71, then the Tungsten E, then the T3 for a brief period, then the Zodiac 2, and now my T5. And through that progression, there's one steady trend: more memory.

I want an elegant, easy to use device, but I use it for more than just my schedule. I need a well-engineered information manager. Not just schedule information, but ebooks, podcasts, audiobooks, articles saved from the web and my own writing. My T5 does this for me and it does it far more smoothly than any Pocket PC.

'Nuff said.

[jlariviere]

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm human, too, and I just got a little tired of T3 users calling me an idiot for preferring a T5. I lashed out and I shouldn't have. My apologies. There are trolls out there that give rational T3 users like yourself a bad name and I forgot that there are good people that use that device.

No problem,
Jeremie

[PDAPPC]

My T5 does this for me and it does it far more smoothly than any Pocket PC.

I can "respect that". But then again, maybe your needs and expectations for a portable computing device are more simple than mine or anyone else who either buys a WM device or "trades-up" to a WM device from the Palm platform. That's NOT in any way meant in a condescending fashion. My GF's Zire 72 is perfect for what she needs to do with it. When I use it, I feel like it's not a step back but rather more of a compromise of my needs.

Still doesn't address the issue on why Palm felt the need to take on the PPC "head-on".

You also asked what should Palm implement? One of the things I always found strange is the inconsistancies of the Palm OS across it's product line. For example, the T5 and LD come with "utilities" for file management from a PC to the Palm device. However, you don't get this utility with a low end Zire. You get a dynamic data input area on the high end devices but not the low end devices. With the WM platform, from day one, you get the same "features" that OS provides throughout the entire product line, in HP's case, from the lowly rz1715 to the high-end 4700/2700. I am not talking things like BT or Wifi, QVGA or VGA, but rather a consistant interface throughout. I think there is something to be said for consistancy.

[Surur]

Jeff, you clearly have your personal preference, but the market has spoken. Whats do YOU think the buying public is NOT finding in PalmOS's offerings (its not just PalmOne's stuff, because both Sony and Tapwave are going down in the market too.)

Surur

[Reggie]

Regardless of the technical issues, the multitasking allows me to run my GPS application and while it's running go to my PIM look up a contact then jump back to the GPS app that's still tracking! It works and it works well. I use that example because I have done it dozens of times and represents the ability of the OS to do it. Do I need to do this all the time? No. But it's nice to have a platform that provides that type of flexibility. Can the same thing be achieved with a Palm device, I don't know. Maybe it can, or maybe it can't.

It can. The Garmin iQue 3600 does the same thing. With the GPS on and when there is a route active, you can do almost anything -- even play MP3 if you want to. When approaching a turn, the iQue pops up a window and the voice prompt will kick in telling you to turn.

Maybe Garmin has figured out a better way to multi-task with the Palm OS. But then, they did this since they needed to multi-task.

[PDAPPC]

It can. The Garmin iQue 3600 does the same thing. With the GPS on and when there is a route active, you can do almost anything -- even play MP3 if you want to. When approaching a turn, the iQue pops up a window and the voice prompt will kick in telling you to turn.

Maybe Garmin has figured out a better way to multi-task with the Palm OS. But then, they did this since they needed to multi-task.

Ok, so If I buy a GPS package for my GF's zire 72 and pair it with my BT Globalsat, it should do the same thing?

[jjesusfreak01]

Ok, so If I buy a GPS package for my GF's zire 72 and pair it with my BT Globalsat, it should do the same thing?
No, I dont think it will. The Garmin is a GPS first, and a PDA second. They though it would be a good idea to be able to use the GPS all the time. It is a different type of multitasking, very similar to the way audio threading works. It has the GPS threads (tied into the hardware), and then the POS on top of that. Its a good example of multithreading, but not exactly true multitasking, because it is limited to the GPS program.

[Reggie]

Ok, so If I buy a GPS package for my GF's zire 72 and pair it with my BT Globalsat, it should do the same thing?

I wish. I have been waiting for Garmin to release just the iQue app for other Palm OS devices but they never did. :( The GPS package that comes with the 72 from Palm (PalmOne) is from Tomtom. I have compared Tomtom (using a TH55 connecting to a Socket BT GPS) and the iQue and still think that the iQue is far better even if it doesn't have a 3D view.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Frankly, I think Palm's bigdest problem right now is marketing. PPC's are glitzier, have more bells and whistles, and Palm isn't talking about how well their systems work. They could learn a lot from Apple in this regard. They're also not telling customers what the new Palms can really do, as evidenced by the fact that in last week's chat Watcher had nolidea that the T5 and LD could sync at USB2 speed.

[PDAJah]

Surur, your graph (near the front of this thread) shows that after about 5-6 years of trying WM has not managed to dominate the market yet, which is amazing when you have M$ and HP backing the OS and hardware. I think this tells its own story.

[soccrnj80]

It's funny in response to Suru's posts. I just bought a lifedrive today, and have been searching 1src forums for tips. The amount of negative posts this guy writes is crazy. For instance one person figured out how to hard reset the LD without wiping the 4gig hard drive out, it was a great find on a new lifedrive owners part. Surur repsonds with "so much for security", this might not seem like such a bad thing to say, but I have repeatedly seen nothing but negative posts from this guy. Dude you need to get a life, and crawl out of microsofts ***. Your graph might show that windows mobile marketshare has gone up, again look how many years it took, and how many people microsoft pimps their os to, you have every tom, dick and harry putting that bloated os onto their machines. It comes down to quality dude, not quantity. I didn't realize how much of a ppc troll you were until today I started searching posts about the lifedrive and sure enough there's your name with a negative comment.

[PDAPPC]

Surur, your graph (near the front of this thread) shows that after about 5-6 years of trying WM has not managed to dominate the market yet, which is amazing when you have M$ and HP backing the OS and hardware. I think this tells its own story.

Considering that MS came from way behind to almost double the shipments is the real story. Plus what is most important is the number of OEM's that have jumped on board to develop devices for the platform, which is more than can be said for Palm.

[PDAPPC]

It's funny in response to Suru's posts. I just bought a lifedrive today, and have been searching 1src forums for tips. The amount of negative posts this guy writes is crazy. For instance one person figured out how to hard reset the LD without wiping the 4gig hard drive out, it was a great find on a new lifedrive owners part. Surur repsonds with "so much for security", this might not seem like such a bad thing to say, but I have repeatedly seen nothing but negative posts from this guy. Dude you need to get a life, and crawl out of microsofts ***. Your graph might show that windows mobile marketshare has gone up, again look how many years it took, and how many people microsoft pimps their os to, you have every tom, dick and harry putting that bloated os onto their machines. It comes down to quality dude, not quantity. I didn't realize how much of a ppc troll you were until today I started searching posts about the lifedrive and sure enough there's your name with a negative comment.

You have no clue. Sorry, I don't mean to be "mean" but it sounds like you are someone that "plays" with a PDA. Surur is right (see my post on why people should "secure" their devices). So you bought a LD, you say? LMAO! What are you going to say when your LD shows you the white screen of wait when your applications have to be loaded from the HD and have been moved out of cache? What will you say when you find out that it's not as fast as your lovely Treo? What will you say when you have to go get a 3rd party util just to keep apps in the execution cache so the LD runs faster? Give me a break.

Quality you say? BS. If MS devices didn't have quality, they wouldn't sell. RESPECT THE MAJORITY DECISION! (how's that guys?)

Fact is, WM devices get the job done and the market represents that fact. Palm devices get the job done also, but you are fool if you think that Palm doesn't have it's "problems" or if you think the downward trend of devices shipped is a good thing.

[soccrnj80]

whahhh whahh whahh, all I hear from both of you. I am someone who plays with pda's, lol. I agree that people have to secure their devices, if you read my post you'll see what I meant., it's not such a bad thing to say. It is a bad thing when someone figures out how to do something that no one figured out, and all you can do is repsond with a negative comment. The lifedrive is a great machine, I am sure windows mobile will try to play catchup and put an inetgrated hd in one of their machines. WE DID IT FIRST!!
Your machine at compusa today had hourglasses galore just trying to open apps built into it's rom, not opeing them off a harddrive. With a 624 mhz processor you'd think it would be able to open it's own apps w/out the famous hourglass. God, I am starting to sound like the both of you. I have no problems with people pointing out the obvious, like your comment on security, I happen to agree, even though I only "play" with pda's. I guess my job with the government in the IT field I got through playing, and not knowing my sh**, it just pisses me off that you guys only have negative comments,
I have read so many posts by Surur today and not one post was a positive thing, it kept going back to windows mobile, their market share, why their better. Heck, I read one post that said he does the same thing at palminfocenter. The both of you sound like Tom Cruise selling scientology,(crazy) you keep trying to "convert" people on a a palm site, with palm fans, just try and not be so disrespecting to our community. I am sure you'd feel more comfortable at a windows mobile site, but maybe not, theres not really a community just a bunch of clones.

[Surur]

soccrnj80, you come accross as being very emotional. You and the LifeDrive will make good company. I may only make negative comments, but a) thats hardly an attitude thats not prevalent (e.g the why I'm returning my lifedrive thread) and b) stating the obvious.

I'm amazed that I have so much power over you, that I'm made you buy an expensive PDA when you already have the latest generation device in phone form. I dont think you should buy the Brooklyn Bridge through. Its very rusty and old, it will probably fall down soon. DONT BUY IT!!!

Anyway, have fun with your LD. Stop getting so wound up. Your ranting it taking this thread off-topic.

Surur

[PDAPPC]

whahhh whahh whahh, all I hear from both of you. I am someone who plays with pda's, lol. I agree that people have to secure their devices, if you read my post you'll see what I meant., it's not such a bad thing to say. It is a bad thing when someone figures out how to do something that no one figured out, and all you can do is repsond with a negative comment. The lifedrive is a great machine, I am sure windows mobile will try to play catchup and put an inetgrated hd in one of their machines. WE DID IT FIRST!!
Your machine at compusa today had hourglasses galore just trying to open apps built into it's rom, not opeing them off a harddrive. With a 624 mhz processor you'd think it would be able to open it's own apps w/out the famous hourglass. God, I am starting to sound like the both of you. I have no problems with people pointing out the obvious, like your comment on security, I happen to agree, even though I only "play" with pda's. I guess my job with the government in the IT field I got through playing, and not knowing my sh**, it just pisses me off that you guys only have negative comments,
I have read so many posts by Surur today and not one post was a positive thing, it kept going back to windows mobile, their market share, why their better. Heck, I read one post that said he does the same thing at palminfocenter. The both of you sound like Tom Cruise selling scientology,(crazy) you keep trying to "convert" people on a a palm site, with palm fans, just try and not be so disrespecting to our community. I am sure you'd feel more comfortable at a windows mobile site, but maybe not, theres not really a community just a bunch of clones.

Well, not much to say (as shake my head). Each argument you make becomes more and more childish. Understand that PPC's have been able to use Microdrives for years and not in the least have it adversly affect (except for Bat life) the performance of the device because it is treated a another form of media storage, just like a CF or SD card. Go look over at the Future of Palm thread and tell me who started negative comments first. Your comments are based not on truth but on what YOU think is true. You gonna call me a liar if I launch 3 or 4 apps side by side to my girlfriend's Zire 72 and tell you that it's just as fast? Your going to tell me having two, three, four apps in program memory with more than 20mb of free program space that switching between them is slow? Let me tell you something, if it was as painfully or as ungraceful as both yourself and Jeff make it seem, I would be the first to dump my device and get something better. I dumped the Palm platform before because it didn't satify my needs and I wouldn't hesitate to dump another if the need should arise.

I have stated my preferences and have re-butted your feeble attempts to make it look like you know what you are talking about when it comes to WM. Unlike yourself, I like to peruse all types of technology boards and it gives perspective on the "state of the union" of the handheld space. When someone like yourself "shoot off at the mouth" of how slow and painful PPC's may seem, it just deserves a logical and factual rebuke of the information you are spewing.

It's ok that you are a Palm-fan-boy. That's your right. Just don't fool yourself you're that knowledgeable about the WM platform.

[soccrnj80]

WHAHHH,WHAHH,WHAHH. Are you guys a tagteam?? Sucrur You made me buy a lifedrive?? Are you kidding me, the fact that you are such a cowardly, negative troll leaves any room for an inkling of influence on me, go smoke more of what your smoking.
I buy what I want to buy, what works for me, THE BEST, not what a made up graph showing marketshare dictates. Yeah, I do have a treo 650, the latest and greatest, and now a lifedrive, another high end awesome, first of it's kind, sure to be copied device, ya jealous I can afford such great things?? And to your comment about the bridge,lol, I'm gonna have to stoop to your level for this one, I can't pass it up, "jump off the brooklyn bridge, maybe if you had a picture of a graph showing this you would also be doing it". I see what influences you.
You are doing the same exact thing here that you are doing at palminfocenter.com, what are you getting out of this? Just saying disrespectful things to get a rise out of people.
Everyone here sees right through the both of you, your types have been doing this for years, keep telling yourself lies, you'll believe it to be truth. Why are the both of you here? What are you trying to accomplish??
It's also ok that your a windows mobile b*t*h, better you than me.

[Reggie]

Please, enough of that Palm OS vs. WM talk. Lets move on already!

[soccrnj80]

I agree, this isn't what anyone wanting to read and post wants to hear. I'll stick to the subject at hand from now on.

[Surur]

Ignoring WM completely now, there MUST be something wrong on the Palm side, as consumers are rejecting them. Remaining on topic, Jeff's assertion that things are perfect now and nothing needs to change is wrong.

The question to ponder is - what's wrong?

Surur

[PDAPPC]

Ignoring WM completely now, there MUST be something wrong on the Palm side, as consumers are rejecting them. Remaining on topic, Jeff's assertion that things are perfect now and nothing needs to change is wrong.

The question to ponder is - what's wrong?

Surur

Jeff seems to think that Palm doesn't need a "Vision" and whatever is available now will carry them to the promised land of Linux. Sorry, if Palm execs don't "envision" their product line and communicate that to customers AND developers alike, then the trend away from Palm devices will continue. I can be argued that the "Vision" is indeed to get to Linux. The problem with that is that tech is moving too rapidly for Palm to sit on their duffs and rely on the success of the Treo. You guys like to compare Palm to Apple, which just isn't fair to what Apple has done. You think Apple, isn't sitting on the "next greatest thing", or least has a game plan of what it plans to do after the Ipod fervor dies down?

Thusfar, they have done a piss-poor job at both. That probably can be attributed to the management exec at both PalmSource and PalmOne.

I still think the departure of Sony put a real stake in the heart of Palm.

[soccrnj80]

Garnet is doing everything we need it to do just fine, I am positive palm is not resting now that palmsource is not developing anything but plinux. They won't let the community down like that.

[Scott R]

Surur, you're being disingenuous. Can't you can only make the argument that consumers are "rejecting" Palm devices if you're comparing it to WM? palmOne's last quarter was better than expected, so they're clearly doing a good job of selling their devices. Whether they're selling as many as they could if the underlying OS was a bit more capable is another question.

And on that note, I must say that while I personally can't rant for a while about what's wrong with the current incarnations of Garnet, I tend to think that the average consumer is oblivious to it all. I'm guessing that most of palmOne's sales were for Treo 650's (smaller numbers but higher profit margins) and lower-end devices (which are more reliable and meet this segment's needs just fine).

[Surur]

We can ignore WM sales, because Palm OS sales quarter on quarter is also going down, and has been for many years now. In Q1 2002 1.8 million POS devices shipped, in Q1 2005 1.1 million devices shipped. Why are they selling less and less each year? Maybe its not technical problems with the OS, maybe its the minimalist attitude it carries (only doing enough)?

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

Considering that MS came from way behind to almost double the shipments is the real story. Plus what is most important is the number of OEM's that have jumped on board to develop devices for the platform, which is more than can be said for Palm.

Something else Pocket PC trolls never point out is that the numbers they love to quote are shipments, not sales. They don't tell you how many of those units sat unsold on retail shelves before being sent back to the manufacturer.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Ignoring WM completely now, there MUST be something wrong on the Palm side, as consumers are rejecting them. Remaining on topic, Jeff's assertion that things are perfect now and nothing needs to change is wrong.

The question to ponder is - what's wrong?

Surur

Nothing's wrong, Surur, and your constant trolling doesn't make it so. Palms do a great job for those that need a quick and elegant information device, and you can't refute that. Go away.

[Surur]

Nothing's wrong, Surur, and your constant trolling doesn't make it so. Palms do a great job for those that need a quick and elegant information device, and you can't refute that. Go away.

Yes, Jeff, and a horse and buggy will get you to work also. Denial is clearly not just a river in Egypt. If POS ships less than a million this quarter, will you admit that they have lost touch with the PDA consuming public?

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

Yes, Jeff, and a horse and buggy will get you to work also. Denial is clearly not just a river in Egypt. If POS ships less than a million this quarter, will you admit that they have lost touch with the PDA consuming public?
Nope. The market is changing, which means your annual quarter to quarter stats are meaningless.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Admit it, Surur. You don't give a damn about Palm OS. You're here because you're bored until WM 5.0 comes out and you like to torment Palm users for your own amusement. You've actually said so on other forums. You have nothing to say here, and I will not be responding to you again.

[soccrnj80]

Exactly Jeff, I'm with ya on this. I won't stoop to the level he's "playing" on, it happens alot in life when someone isn't happy with their own situation they attack. Even when it does come out they still won't be happy, I can't blame them either. Each new release they all huddle and proclaim palm is dead, I have not once ever heard, or seen a palm site ever proclaim that, it comes down to class. Some have it, some don't. It's better to take the high road and not stoop to a troll's level, they're trolls, they can't be anything but low. So on that note, GOOD RIDDANCE.

[soccrnj80]

My lifedrive ROCKS!!!! If this is any sign of what's to come from palm I am very psyched. I just sent a bunch of podcasts to my lifedrive from my powerbook via bt, and it put them right into pockettunes for me to listen to. Very slick palm, very slick...

[PDAPPC]

I won't stoop to the level he's "playing" on

Oh really, you have repeatedly done so.

Even when it does come out they still won't be happy, I can't blame them either.

You're doing it again.

Each new release they all huddle and proclaim palm is dead, I have not once ever heard, or seen a palm site ever proclaim that, it comes down to class. Some have it, some don't. It's better to take the high road and not stoop to a troll's level, they're trolls, they can't be anything but low. So on that note, GOOD RIDDANCE.

You're the worst kind of troll. I call it a "home town troll". Someone who feels he can say what he wants and act in very same manner as the person he is criticizing. But, it's ok no matter what he says or does becuause he thinks he on his "home" court.

Ok, so lets talk facts. Is Palm and it's OS the clear market leader? No. Fact. Were they once the undisputed leader of the handheld space? Yes. Palm-fan boys were very quick to mention that fact during the early to mid 90's when WM was going thru it's initial growing pains. Palm-fan boys were also quick to denounce color screens, multi-media, and such, each of which it has been proven the "market" wanted. Ok, so where does that lead? Doesn't matter that you, I, or the guys that do podcasts say.

The exec's at Palm know the deal. Does a successful organization just one day wake up and decide to reorganize it's corporate structure? Somethings wrong and they know it. You guys want to close your eyes to it, that's fine. All Socrnj80's rah-rah-sys-coomb-bah doesn't change this fact.

[soccrnj80]

Dude don't bring me in on your crazy posts. I said I will not even respond to you. Stop it already, you did this to Jeff Kirvin, your doing it to me. The 2 of you are out of control and I don't want no part of it. My discussions with you 2 are over, please respect that, and I'll respect you. These forums were once a place to go to discuss things, get info, you are ruining it, and by me and Jeff adding any fuel to your fires we are taking part in the sick games your playin. So respect us, don't talk about us anymore and I will give you the same courtesy. It's been fun, but I got better things to do. Don't try and ruin our website, it used to be a great place to post things, Hopefully in a few days it will be like that again. There was always room for disaggreeing, but this is completely out of control. We'll respect you, and it'd be nice if you did the same. I will not even mention either of you anymore.

[Sjweise]

Yah know, I'm pretty happy with my T3 and I'm not happy wioth any of the devices that are new. LD too big, as a point of reference the t3 is as big as my M515 with the slider closed. T5 not enough of a change to warrant the money. Treo's screen too small. PPCs? Well, I've just spent the last several years using Palm and it happens to work so until that is not a possible I think I will stick with it for now. However,here is a list that I think Palm could address (some of these have already been brought up)
1) Full bluetooth profile support. I want to share my BT headset between my cell and pda. How awesome would that be!)
2) Battery managment so these devices last longer. I refuse to accept that performance could not be optimized
3) Email that works 100% of the time. Christ, how hard IS that?
4) My T3 crashs atleast twice a day while making BT connections to my cell to grab email, verichat or webPro. I would like that fixed thank you.
Thats software. Now for hardware...
1) Decrease the amount of space needed for the dpad & 4 buttons. The T3 has what, an inch of space fopr that setup? Too much. Why does the LD need those HUGE buttons? Slim it down.
2) Better screens. make them not whine. Let me see them in the sunlight.
3 ) 2 sd slots or 1 sd 1 cf slot.
4) Better built in speakers. I know the Zodiacs have stereo sound, why can't they all ahve it?
5) Landline jack and modem/fax software? Mindblowing I know.

And, just so I touch on everything, are there palm Cultists over on PPC boards stirring s%@t up too? I've always wondered that.

[Robyr]

Also, Soccrnj80, you are no better than these trolls. I'm tired of hearing both of you guy's childish posts and nit picks. You have repeatedly said you weren't going to respond, yet you keep doing it. Palm OS isn't the best, but its a hell of a lot better than the M$ offerings, you don't have to justify YOUR choice with childish arguments.

[Reggie]

Note: Robotech Off-topic posts were moved to this thread:
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91993

[Sjweise]

Sorry for the off-topics (though it was a nice break from the "my PDA is bigger than yours posts" :rolleyes: )
And I'm surprised that the t5 and T3 are so close in speed. I would have thought the patch would have fixed any issues AND optimized the system. Not that it matters to me, I underclock my T3 to 177mhz (except a few apps) to squeak out a bit more battery life. can I add system speed to the list of software additions I want to see in PalmOS? Or maybe just pin it with battery management?

[PDAJah]

Ignoring WM completely now, there MUST be something wrong on the Palm side, as consumers are rejecting them. Remaining on topic, Jeff's assertion that things are perfect now and nothing needs to change is wrong.

The question to ponder is - what's wrong?

Surur

Surur, why do you care about Palm and Palm OS - do you own a LD or T5 or do you plan to buy a T7? As others have said your views are well understood.

[bloney]

Darn it, Jeff. I just gotta say something.

I have a PPC. Thats got that out the way. I've come from Handspring/Palm and after my T3 died, after my TT died and really honestly being disappointed with the T5 I lost money returning the T5 and getting the hx4700 I now own. As an experiment really - see what it's like on the other side.

I'm still very interested in the Palm world - we're all PDAs here after all. I look forward to your podcasts and can't wait to download new ones - thankyou very much for this!

I agree completely with your stuff about choice - we all make our own choice and it's not for other people to say they've made the wrong chioce etc. And misinformed, inaccurate slagging off the other platform, I agree is not constructive in any way.

Which is why I was very surpirsed to hear you talking about the hx4700 and how unstable it is because of all the features they've crammed into a small package.

Well - wrong. I honestly (and I mean honestly) can't remember the last time my hx crashed and needed a reset. It's just as (I'd like to say more, but I'm too scared to!) stable asany of my Palms.

Jeff - I enjoy your podcasts and respect your point of view, but your hipocracy (not sure of spelling...) really did get to me last night.

I guess my point is - why can't we all just get on!? Jeff - you're getting as bad as anyone for slagging off the other platform - rise above it Jeff.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'll try to stop talking about Pocket PCs as much, but when I still worked at CompUSA, the hx4700 was by far the most-returned PDA, usually citing stability issues as the reason. Maybe you got a good one?

[bloney]

Yeah - maybe I got a good one. I do love my hx, but I did love my T3 before it died. The T5 seemed very sluggish, but I think this was me not understanding the G2 delay - you explained this on a recent podcast. I'm glad I got the hx, but do miss the Palms too.

I might be going off topic, but can I just mention another thing that put me off the T5? Well, it was plasticy and it creaked when you held it tightly. It just felt cheap. I know that makes me rather shallow, but it didn't 'feel good' to hold. I was also worried about build quality after my TT and T3 died early deaths too, but I might be wrong about that. I know the hx costs more, but it sure feels it and it might be shallow, but to some people that matters.

I think the PalmOS vs PPC argument is good and healthy and will never go away (well until PPCs or Palm are no more...), but people should I guess try and not take it all too seriously. Looking back, I'm as bad as anyone when the hx got critisised!

Great podcasts, great discussion. Thanks Jeff - keep em coming!

[Reggie]

Jeff, just to let you know, the Zen Vision is cool, but nothing special. It doesnt match up to the Epson P-2000, which has a VGA screen as well as SD and CF card slots. It is the best design for a hardcore photo viewer out now. Much better as a general media viewer, the Creative Zen Vision is going to have to compete against this (http://reviews.cnet.com/Archos_AV700_Mobile_DVR_100GB/4505-6499_7-31392977.html). I like the podcast Jeff, but I still want better support for threading, at the very least.

The Zen Vision has a VGA screen too though no SD slot. Here are the specs:
http://www.dapreview.net/news.php?extend.1784

[jjesusfreak01]

The Zen Vision has a VGA screen too though no SD slot. Here are the specs:
DAPReview (http://www.dapreview.net/news.php?extend.1784)
I know, but for people who use their device primarily for loading pictures from camera memory cards, the CF and SD slots are a must. It keeps you from having to use the camera battery to offload pics, and allows professional photographers to spend a day taking pictures without having their laptops with them. It says nothing about the vision as a general media player, but it just isnt the best as a dedicated photo viewer. I have to say the Epson P-2000 isnt the fastest when playing video, but it can do slideshows with music and transitions, so it is an excellent photo viewer.

[intellidryad]

Jeff, sorry if you feel offended by this, but I guess I have to point it out.
I guess we all know already that we don't feel good when being told "your favorite gadget sucks". I don't know much about the T3, never used one, but it's not so kind to describe a someone else's favorte PDA as "wires comming out, screws comming off" and all that.

You've always had intresting points I never thought of in the podcasts, and most of them are of good quality. I guess you're quite pissed off this time, but please calm down. It's good for your health :)
---
Will the Treo make Palm the Apple of smartphones?
Let's see what Apple has to make it what it is today...
Great products...the Treo's great, but they can always make it better :)
Incredible marketing... something Palm needs badly
A great leader, Steve Jobs...Now this is complicated.

Steve Jobs has some great ideas, charisma, and insists on what he believes is best.
Now I don't expect Palm to make it's leader a "god of the palm world", or "a spritual leader" but I'm this is what I'm wondering: "Where's the original palm gang?"
Where's Jeff Hawkins, the one with innovations(creator of the Treo); Donna Dubinsky, the one who motivates the companys; and everybody else of the gang? Expecially Rob Haitani, who made the zen of palm into a reality.
Of the original gang, I only know that Coligen is now CEO. Not bad, but from what I see now, I think a return to "the zen of Palm" (no waits, minimum taps, simplicity, no worries...) is the key to Palm's future. I wonder if this would help Palm just as what Jobs did to the "then dying Apple".
---
Anyway, I'm happy that this thread is finally on topic. The last week was so unlike the normal peaceful 1src.

EDIT: just found out that Rob is still at Palm, wondering why the software problems of recent palms...
By the way, check this out http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/621-1.htm

[Jeff Kirvin]

Because Haitani hasn't had time to fix the software problems yet. Give him and Ed some time to turn the company around. A corporation is like an ocean liner in that it can't turn on a dime.

[Reggie]

I know, but for people who use their device primarily for loading pictures from camera memory cards, the CF and SD slots are a must. It keeps you from having to use the camera battery to offload pics, and allows professional photographers to spend a day taking pictures without having their laptops with them. It says nothing about the vision as a general media player, but it just isnt the best as a dedicated photo viewer. I have to say the Epson P-2000 isnt the fastest when playing video, but it can do slideshows with music and transitions, so it is an excellent photo viewer.

I am a photographer myself and most professional photographers that use DSLRs use CF. In any case, if you need SD, you just need this:
http://shop.brando.com.hk/eagleteccftosdadapter.php

One thing nice about the Vision is it's removable Li-ion battery. It's hard to be on a shoot and then you run out of batteries while off-loading your raw files. Don't get me wrong. I like the P-2000 too but I'm holding off until the Vision gets released and gets reviewed.

Btw, the P-2000 has been hard to find for quite some time. It's now available at CompUSA and directly from Epson if you are looking for one.

[archangel]

We can ignore WM sales, because Palm OS sales quarter on quarter is also going down, and has been for many years now. In Q1 2002 1.8 million POS devices shipped, in Q1 2005 1.1 million devices shipped. Why are they selling less and less each year? Maybe its not technical problems with the OS, maybe its the minimalist attitude it carries (only doing enough)?

Surur

Why do I care about PPC sales when I would never own one? I don't pick a PDA based on its sales. If I did I would be stuck with devices I wouldn't like instead of the great Clies and current Zodiac I have now. Fact is there is no PPC or Linux PDA made that compares to any of the Palm devices I have owned for my uses. You can quote pointless sales figures and specs for the Pocket PC, but the fact is there isn't a single PPC on the market now or coming out in the future that will replace my Zodiac. I am a Palm OS user because its the best OS for my needs that won't change anytime in the future. Even the Treo is way ahead of every PPC for my possible next device. Your trolling is old and tired and pretty much the same crap every time. Do a graph about that.

[jjesusfreak01]

I am a photographer myself and most professional photographers that use DSLRs use CF.
Sorry, I was under the impression it did not have a CF slot. I may have to give it a second look, because the interface may be (probably is) nicer. The only problem with things like this is their relatively small amount of storage. When You have a DSLR, and you take 6MP photos, you tend to use up memory quickly, and when some of the newer CF cards are 2+ GB, you can still fill up one of these things relatively quick, especially if you store photos in RAW formats. After looking at the Zen Visions specs, you will realize that it doesnt support RAW formats, which the Epson P-2000 does support. That instantly puts it on the "no" list for many professional photographers.

[Reggie]

Sorry, I was under the impression it did not have a CF slot. I may have to give it a second look, because the interface may be (probably is) nicer. The only problem with things like this is their relatively small amount of storage. When You have a DSLR, and you take 6MP photos, you tend to use up memory quickly, and when some of the newer CF cards are 2+ GB, you can still fill up one of these things relatively quick, especially if you store photos in RAW formats. After looking at the Zen Visions specs, you will realize that it doesnt support RAW formats, which the Epson P-2000 does support. That instantly puts it on the "no" list for many professional photographers.

Yes, I only shoot in RAW. I did notice that the Zen Vision doesn't support RAW. :( I'm sure there will be a firmware update (just like how Epson released a firware update for the P-2000 to support other RAW formats: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05040101p2000fw0202.asp )

[jjesusfreak01]

Yes, I only shoot in RAW. I did notice that the Zen Vision doesn't support RAW. :( I'm sure there will be a firmware update (just like how Epson released a firware update for the P-2000 to support other RAW formats: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05040101p2000fw0202.asp )
Maybe, but its a mistake to not include it at launch. The P-2000 did include the ability to view multiple types of RAW files at its launch, and the firmware upgrade just adds support for more. The problem is that the P-2000 is from a dedicated photo company, while the Zen Vision is from a dedicated multimedia company. When they make an update, photo compatability may not be a priority, and it is always possible that the hardware may not be able to easily support RAW files. RAW files are alot harder to display than JPEG, unless you are talking about those 17MP JPEGs. You may notice that the P-2000 update adds support for those insanely large JPEG files. I may have to entice my father to update his P-2000, because the update does look good.

[Puppy]

As always, I *love* your Podcasts Jeff! (Even though I’m always posting stuff in disagreement :D )

First off, in reference to Versamail crashing, and the users being stupid for using it…Veramail *comes* with Palm’s hardware. It’s already on the Lifedrive when you buy it. Personally I don’t have much use for it, and Blazer has been very stable for me, but email now needs to be considered a core app. They need to have a high-quality, STABLE email program.

In regards to that Grassnet speed thing, IMO it looks bogus. The T5 ties the T3…but only because it wins the web browsing category. For basic PIM stuff the T3 smacks it around.

In a semi-related thing though, I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that Palm may be on to something in “only” including 416MHz CPUs on their units. Really the only thing on my Lifedrive that would be sped up is opening and closing native Office files. If it can already play 320x480 video at 30f/s, do we really need a faster, more battery hungry CPU? The only thing is, if the xScale really can slow down (I assume this requires software support?) when the extra CPU speed isn’t needed, then I wouldn’t mind a 520 or 624Mhz version.

I’d be in agreement that OS 5 could continue indefinitely, IF out of the box Palm’s handhelds were all bug free, and apps where multitasking makes sense multitasked. Ie web apps, in addition to just the media players we have now. IMO switching to a modern OS would just make everyone’s life simpler in the medium and long term.

That said, Windows Mobile handles multitasking horribly too. I loved the comments about calendar app just hanging out in the background, doing…?

I liked how OS 6 was going to do it-basically stuff had to be multithreaded, so (for example) in an email program, it only left a thread that checked email running, not the entire program. THAT makes sense to me. Much more sense than Windows Mobile. I’d love to find out the real reason we never got OS 6… (Loved the idea of media controls, etc. that can pop up in other programs too.)

I also agree with posts in this thread in regards to Windows Mobile’s basic PIM stuff being horrible. I tried switching to an Axim x50v, and just couldn’t stand it (in addition to syncing issues…) And like Scott R, I’m just waiting for Microsoft to actually FIX their UI issues/PIM apps… which WM 5 doesn’t appear to do.

PPCAPP, you said you switched from a Prism to a Windows Mobile unit for the features. Okay, fine, back in 2000 that was true (sort of), but that doesn’t have any bearing on the situation NOW. Both WM and PalmOS handle media just fine, etc., etc. I’d say the biggest difference is Palm has WAY better PIM apps, and WM has some advantages when it comes to more networking programs being able to run in the background (but some Palm apps do too).

And in regards to …What are you going to say when your LD shows you the white screen of wait when your applications have to be loaded from the HD and have been moved out of cache? What will you say when you find out that it's not as fast as your lovely Treo? What will you say when you have to go get a 3rd party util just to keep apps in the execution cache so the LD runs faster? Give me a break.

If you actually OWNED a Lifedrive you’d know that most of the time you don’t get a “white screen of wait” (and I’ve never bothered with SharkCache, ‘cause I’m not paying $10 for it). It’s mostly just when switching out of a big app that’s been running for a long time to another big app-and Windows Mobile doesn’t blaze in those situations either. The rest of your comments are just bogus. The market only picks the best products. Yeah. Right. We weren’t born yesterday.

[soccrnj80]

I have to tell you, I'm liking the lifedrive. The "white screen of wait" is a scare tactic, it's overblown, there might be a 1 second delay opening something big for the first time, then it's in cache. I got sharkcache, he did an amazing job with it, so I support him. It allows you to put the apps you use most into cache so they open instantaneously. It is a rock solid device, watching movies using tcmp is awesome. I can use wifile and pull some "adult movies" off my network and pull it right into my lifedrive to view. The more and more I use this the better it is, I still carry my treo 650 everywhere with me, but this is a great device for a different purpose. I love being able to send mp3's and podcasts to my lifedrive from my powerbook via bt. Things are done awesome on this, battery life is better than I thought, they include a nice leather case, nicest stock case I have ever gotten with a device.

[jjesusfreak01]

The lag is definitely not exaggerated, but with the way Palm implemented it, it doesnt show up as much for the regular user (it does cache some things). The problem is that devices sitting in a store dont cache anything, and so when users test it, they see lag, lots of lag. If I were a store owner, I would consider installing Sharkcache on the device. Even though it might skew the users experience, it would be closer to the real experience.

[applejosh]

The market only picks the best products.
Right on. If it was the case, then how can anyone explain Windows 95? :D

[Jeff Kirvin]

Right on. If it was the case, then how can anyone explain Windows 95? :D
Funny yous guys mention this. I finished writing next week's editorial earlier today, and it touches on this. I'll talk a bit about it and get more background for a possible revision in the chat tomorrow, but the article is titled: "Choice, the choice of a new generation."

[PDAJah]

Jeff, take a look at this graph.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5418/posvswm2eu.jpg
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5418/posvswm2eu.jpg
These numbers DO include Treo's. Its not just marketshare thats important, its also the trend. If your year on year sales are going down there is very little point in investing in a company, as their profits will only decrease.

So Garnet is perfect? The latest advances in Windows Mobile will transition developers to .Net CF, which will mean managed code, protection against memory leaks, less security problems and therefore more stable devices. They have also provided API's to give developers better access to hardware, e.g cameras and GPS units. What's garnet's answer?

Not all companies become Apple. Most become Word-perfect, Novell and Lotus.

In summary, looking at that graph, Palm OS's future has never been bleaker.

How's that for a rude awakening?

Surur

WM sales don't look very impressive when you consider Nokia sold 5 million Smartphones (Series 60, 80 & 90) in the first quarter of 2005 (see Palmtop User Issue 11). And remember Smartphone market is just as competitive as the PDA market.

(guys, sorry to break your flow in this thread)

[soccrnj80]

The treo 650 BEATS any windows mobile by a mile, even one of their own ppc fanboys uses one. He owns a ppc site and uses a treo 650, it is the BEST converged device on any platform. They even have more smartphones on the market, but even he had to go with the treo 650. He chose a palm os device running "frankengarnet", that has to tell you something about how great this smartphone is. This isn't just coming from me a treo 650 user, he wrote a review on his ppc site all about it, how palm did an amazing job with it, and they did it right.

[Surur_]

So why do my responses get deleted, but not the questions that get asked of me?

Is it that you refuse to be informed?

Surur

Ps: Reggie, you like playing whack-a-mole?

[soccrnj80]

go back to ppcthoughts, saw your post in their forum, all you do is put down palm devices. We don't refuse to be informed, we refuse to take a troll like your's information, or lack there of.

[archangel]

WM sales don't look very impressive when you consider Nokia sold 5 million Smartphones (Series 60, 80 & 90) in the first quarter of 2005 (see Palmtop User Issue 11). And remember Smartphone market is just as competitive as the PDA market.

(guys, sorry to break your flow in this thread)


Even I bought a Series 60 smartphone to pair up with my Zodiac through bluetooth. WM was never in the running. Series 60 is limited compared to the Palm OS, but it does PIM very well and I can even use eReader and Mobipocket on it. It pairs up with a Palm OS PDA very well and it multitasks since that is so important to WM users. Except of course you can actually close the programs in Series 60 if you want to unlike WM.

[palmhiker]

Jeff, I normally find some useful things in your podcasts, but this one was really just a negative rant. Are there really no exciting new applications or future Palm devices or technology to cover these days?

I have been a sometimes defender of Palm's over the years, but recently, mainly due to reading Tanker Bob's experiences in converting to a Dell Axim, I have switched over to using a Widnows Mobile device (iPAQ hx2415, great QVGA screen, dual wireless, SD/CF, 520MHz, etc.). I still own my T-C, which in my opinion is the best business-class Palm device made, but over the past few weeks the iPAQ has become my main device.

I had actually went to the store to purchase a LifeDrive (I really have to have dual wireless), but I just couldn't get past the size, and the cost. I owned a WM2002 device (Toshiba e740) and it was not quite up to snuff reliability and speed wise. The new WM2003SE devices, however, are a giant leap from that, and if you haven't tried one, I would suggest you do before totally dissing the platform. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they have brought a lot of improvements to the WM platform, and it has some really nifty features that I use more than I thought I would.

Why am I here? Well, I like to stay abreast of news that is happening in the Palm camp, and frankly, that is why I download this podcast. I also like to hear differing viewpoints, even from the likes of TVOR, Surur, and sometimes Gekko (even though his politics make me queasy :) )

I would love to hear **informational** podcasts, not continuous rants, and if the debates here do not degrade themelves to the point of discussing Palm programmer's sex lives, then I say resist the urge to censor differing views.

[Voice of Reason]

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
1) Real Multitasking™. Even the ability to run just TWO apps a time would be a HUGE improvement. [And are you finally admitting that PalmOS can't multitask now?] Wirelessly connected devices that can't multitask make as much sense as a car with square wheels. I assume you realize this now.

Im not sure what you mean? It makes no less sense than a non wireless device that cant multitask.


Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
2) Bulletproof security. Licensing TealLock would be the best way to quickly add security to PalmOS, since Palm lacks the engineering ability to code anything even half as good. Positioning PalmOS devices as business tools (smart marketing angle, as RIM has proved) means you need robust security for obvious reasons.

Not going to happen. They would much rather write their own app. They will tell themselves it aint worth it to license an app when they can write it. However, they wont write it.

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
4) Host USB ability (like the LOOX 720). Long overdue flexibility. Finally use your PDA as a true extension of your desktop.

Yeah, the LD doesnt have the best system, but as I said in my interview with Tyler on the PalmAddict podcast, it is a first try, and I am hoping that it will get better. In a perfect world, the implementation of the NVFS would have been such that programs wouldnt know the difference unless they wanted to (IE, programs could directly access the real RAM if they wanted to).

Now, this would be cool. I believe one of Sony's PDAs (NR70?) had something like this, so it is plausible. Palm would claim that it bloats the OS; they know alot about that.

Yeah, you already said that.

I'll have to concede that.

Definitely agreed. Palm has a backup program, they just sell it separately. All three of the Sony's in my house have a backup program.

Yeah, I would like them to send me a copy, but its not going to happen. Wishful thinking. They want you to upgrade.

On a Treo maybe, but not standard on their other Palms.

Not a harsh request. They provide an MP3 player for almost all of their PDAs, a browser for most, and video and email for most that are capable. The truth is that there are free programs like TCPMP that can handle video better than any built in player, and TCPMP also handles audio. As for the browser, Palm has licensed Netfront, and the newer versions of the web browser are based on it.

1) Multitasking is more important in connected PDAs because they're more likely to be running apps (email, browser) that need to be kept open in the background.

2) Actually, you're wrong - Palm licensed TealLock for the Tungsten C and the Tungsten T2. http://www.tealpoint.com/softlock.htm

4) Several Sony CLIEs shipped with Data Import/Data Export which was similar to CardExport II.

- Looks like most of my points were things you felt Palm should have included. Isn't it strange how silent Kirvin has become?

OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

[Voice of Reason]

Picard, since you're online right now, any word whether or not Palm will be licensing The Core from you?

I would suggest you approach Palm about this if they haven't already offered to buy/license your app.

TCPMP, TealLock and BackupMan should all be standatd on EVERY Palm.

TVoR

[jjesusfreak01]

1) Multitasking is more important in connected PDAs because they're more likely to be running apps (email, browser) that need to be kept open in the background.

2) Actually, you're wrong - Palm licensed TealLock for the Tungsten C and the Tungsten T2. http://www.tealpoint.com/softlock.htm

4) Several Sony CLIEs shipped with Data Import/Data Export which was similar to CardExport II.
1) Technically, email can be done with multi-threading. A browser with that capability would be nice.

2) You are right, but they havent since. Look at their attempts to add security to newer models. They tried to add some encryption to the LifeDrive, and they goofed completely from what I have seen.

4) Indeed, thats a nice feature, although making it work without a PC software component would be better.