Rumor: Tungsten XX?

[Adrenochrome]

There's a rumor and pictures of a new PalmOne Tungsten XX. Specs appear to be very much like a T5, but with wifi.

http://wolwol.smugmug.com/gallery/614096

[Vishalca]

This looks amazing! Could it be the perfect PDA (we've been saying that for years)?

Although, my theory is that this will not be called the Tungsten XX; I think the X's are just variables for a replacement name. Looking forward to actually seeing this!

[Reggie]

An member of an Indonesian gadget site, ForumPonsel.com, is showing off pictures of what seem to be an upcoming Tungsten model -- Tungsten XX. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1102)]

[zackepceo]

Very nice! No complaints, really.

[Reggie]

The question is, is XX a pre-released model number? If not, how is it pronounced? XX, double-X (my take), or double cross (lol).

[krhainos]

This seems to be an upgrade to the T5 -- which was a downgrade in features from the T3. I'm hoping they put Voice Memo and a status LED *somewhere*. Aside from that, I think we have a nice well-rounded slim palmOne device.

[Maticek]

Huh, seems I'll be buying a new Tungsten sooner than I thought. I can't really understand why it's only 312 Mhz CPU, maybe to eliminate the screen whine (I doubt it), maybe to increase the battery time. Hopefully this doesn't influence the multimedia usage too much.

[tungsten t5]

It's just a T5 photoshopped. This is no XX. Palm is changing there name to palm again so i'de imagine there next device will say Palm not palmone on it.

[poissonsouriant]

Hold on. Bluetooth 1.2? This means that the LifeDrive 2 will probably have it!

One more for me! (http://www.1src.com/forums/showpost.php?p=824499&postcount=3)

[intellidryad]

I'd guess it may be a leaked test model of the T|5
Releasing a model that doesn't differentiate with the last one doesn't make sense. I't just a waste of money to palmOne.

[zackepceo]

It's just a T5 photoshopped. This is no XX. Palm is changing there name to palm again so i'de imagine there next device will say Palm not palmone on it.
I don't think it's photoshopped. It takes quite a bit of skill and a lot of time to be able to photoshop something like the Tungsten|XX, but the little details like the wifi preferences and the pre-FCC sticker are enough for me to call it a certified real prototype.

[LupeValenz]

Wow...I'm amazed. Palm seems to actually made a cool lookin device. TH55 might have a replacement now, just have to get Decuma on that for input then I MIGHT be buying it. Just have to look at the battery life now. If its replaceable battery, well then I'm gettin it.

[Antoine]

One day, everyone will have different boards but each board will point to one thread will everyone will respond. And then the responses will be in sync :)

Back to the thread;
this is either a T7 or test bed for the LD. My guess is more on the latter, but the pics are legit. No amount of PS can fake it.

[tungsten t5]

I don't think it's photoshopped. It takes quite a bit of skill and a lot of time to be able to photoshop something like the Tungsten|XX, but the little details like the wifi preferences and the pre-FCC sticker are enough for me to call it a certified real prototype.

Those are the same wi-fi prefs as the sd wi-fi card has.

[zackepceo]

Those are the same wi-fi prefs as the sd wi-fi card has.
When you pay around with the brightness and contrast of the dark photo showing the wifi SSID selection thing, there is no wifi SD card.

[jhintonh]

Good Evening-

A few questions:

How much RAM? More than 256 without the wierd allocated memory system of the T5 and it starts looking good.

No camera? I understand that a lot of corporations are nixing cameras in the workplace so I see that argument. I can live without it, but it puts it a step behind my TH55 on that line of the ledger.

What kind of connector? Mini-USB2.0 and I can dig it. Some new proprietary hole and I could throw it.

Better battery life than the T3 and T5? Gosh, I hope so. Me and Sinead O'Connor are looking at my TH55 and going, "Nothing compares to you."

Support SDIO? Hope so.

How many dollars? If this thing comes out at $450 it is a no sell for me. Fifty bucks less ($400) and I stop at the display to play. Anything north of $450 is ridiculous unless it has a Gig of RAM. That would be interesting.

All in all, this is looking nice to me and I have not said that about any PalmOne device in some time. I bought the T3 and have since sold it to my brother (battery life was HORRIBLE and no WiFi). The T5 felt like a stop-gap product to me (maybe for this TXX?) and the whole memory structure was too convoluted to me. The LifeDrive is a brick and overpriced. But this animal seems pretty good. The one thing that I liked abou the T5 is the body, and this seems to be the same body.

I guess we'll see.

-Jhintonh

[smoothjordan]

It's just a T5 photoshopped. This is no XX. Palm is changing there name to palm again so i'de imagine there next device will say Palm not palmone on it.
True, but handhelds go into production months or even years before they are released, meaning PalmOne built it. It would be too much money and time to rebrand them, so they probably are going to release this as the last generation of "PalmOne" handhelds.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Predictions and suppositions:

It will have 512MB, broken out much like it is on the T5, but with a larger internal card.

The XX is just for the prototype. It will retail as the Tungsten|T7.

Retail price of $400.

Battery life will be worse than the T5, but slightly better than the T3. It has WiFi built-in, remember. Why else would they drop the CPU speed from 416 to 312?

It will use the same Athena connector as all other current Palms.

[atraum]

LifeDrive still within the period that I can bring it back but if this device is true the battery is probably the same as the T5, no hardware screen rotate (which I thought was quite gimmicky but is actually great), storage at most I feel would be 512.

Plus after rebate I picked my LifeDrive up for $399+tax. I know there have been many negative comments regarding the LifeDrive but I for one love it. It has so much to offer and in the 3.5 weeks I have had it it has only had 2 soft resets due to my testing a slew of softs on it. I have used a palm for 10 years and the most prevelant negative I can see with this device is that it is larger than a typical palm but still managable, in fact the form factor feels great in my hand.

My 2 cents of course...

[wolwol]

some mistake on the news...oh well, its allrite, i'm the owner of photo album, and all pictures belong to byru
and this is where the original thread where i found the 'X'

http://www.forumponsel.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=984100&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[zackepceo]

I made a mistake.. these photos ARE photoshopped, but not in the way that you think. The XX appears to have a band of numbers/letter on the top that would indicate the tester that has the PDA in question. In all but one photo these are edited out. Posted is proof of these numbers and the proof that the wifi card is not inserted.
http://zackwp.net/images/1118544856/gallery_1_3_1119663827.png

[soccrnj80]

I have to say I think Jeff Kirvin hit the nail right on the head (as usual). I wondered why would they go to 312 when the t5 is 416. My treo 650 has a 312 processor and is quick, so it sounds right, the lower processor is probably due to the wifi, so you get better battery life. I also think palm needs to REALLY differentiate the lifedrive category from the tungsten category, this will do that for them. It kinda reminds me of the old days of the old palm, you had the III series, the v series, and the VII series. There was a clear difference between those handhelds, each had it's pros and cons. The III series was low end but still a great device, the v series was the slim, beautiful business handhelds, and the VII series was the like the mobile wireless device. Things are starting to look the same, they need to do this as the only palm os hardware maker, have a bunch of great offerings. I think most tungsten t5 users wanted a lifedrive because it had what they wanted wifi, beautiful screen, but there was a tradeoff, the size. I think this device is real, and it will really give palm a great, and clear handheld portfolio to go forward with. The lifedrive is a great device, but it did not fit the tungsten line, nor was meant to. I think palm wants to have a strong offering for the consumer user, just getting into pda (zire), business user, power user (tungsten), mobile professional, communications on the go (treo), and their new category, basically laptop/ipod replacment (lifedrive/mobile manager). VERY SMART PALM!!!, looks like they are finally on the right track again, and have a clear and STRONG product lineup. This new tungsten is everything I always wanted my palm vx to be. I wouldn't ditch my treo 650 for it, but would sure welcome it to my pocket.

[jjesusfreak01]

Jeff Kirvin is right. It will probably be the T7, but they really messed up if they lowered the speed. They should invest some money into devising that dynamic clocking program before Dmitry does it. The upgrade I would want for my Clie would be a handheld with similar specs, but a faster processor and dual wireless. In fact, there would be no better handheld out right now if the TH had these features, and many argue that there is still no better handheld. $400 is a good price for the handheld. It may be my next upgrade. It does need more RAM too.

[KenSong]

Anyone seen this? Care to comment?
http://engadget.com/entry/1234000700048062/

Looks like there were some truth when we speculated on what the LD will be called.

[andrebsd]

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90354

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90348

See the _previously_ made topics...

[Maticek]

Don't you think that 312 MHz can be a problem when you want to play a movie that wasn't reencoded for your palm. Let's say you get a email with a short clip that is 640x480, my T3 can handle it just fine.

Battery life. Is it just me or does Palm(1) have a real problem with battery tehnology. If you look at the PPC, many of them have a longer battery time and those which do not, have usually an interchangeable battery. Would be nice if Palm adds this option, but I somehow doubt it.

[Jayman]

I like it ... Very nice ... Too bad I am still very much in love with my Treo ... Hehehe

[danopoly]

Don't you think that 312 MHz can be a problem when you want to play a movie that wasn't reencoded for your palm. Let's say you get a email with a short clip that is 640x480, my T3 can handle it just fine.

Battery life. Is it just me or does Palm(1) have a real problem with battery tehnology. If you look at the PPC, many of them have a longer battery time and those which do not, have usually an interchangeable battery. Would be nice if Palm adds this option, but I somehow doubt it.

who knows, they might use those new LithIon batteries that are 3 times longerlasting than regular LithIons and charges completly in 3 minutes? (cant remember)

[SonyStyle]

another crap from palmone! same design with differeent color

[Shrink]

another crap from palmone! same design with differeent color
C'mon, don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel.
alan

[depret]

LD has Blazer 4.1 and T5 has Blazer 4.0 (please correct me if I am wrong). Can someone verify which version of Blazer this Tungsten T|XX has? If this device is coming then the TH55 may have a replacement. Thanks in advance.

[Jeff Kirvin]

It will almost certainly be Blazer 4.1, but there's no discernable difference.

[Cyker]

I reckon it will have better Battery Life than the T|5 and LD, assuming they put a decent pack in it.

The lowering of CPU speed to me is a good thing, espescially if it's to increase battery life - I mean, seriously, why do you need a 400+MHz CPU in a PDA? No one has answered this satisfactorially to me. If it was a designated games machine or high-spec multimedia playback device then it's understandable, but Palm don't really build games machines or multimedia-playback devices, confused LifeDrive not withstanding, and certainly not the Tungsten line.

The only real advantage of the pointlessly fast CPU in recent Tungstens is to offset the latency penalty that you get with NVFS and absorb the CPU hit of landscape mode.

The 100MHz drop should do the battery drain a lot of good, and off-set the drain of the dual-wireless radios.

When the radios are in use, I expect the batterylife to take quite a hit - Even the TH55's run-time drops substantially when WiFi is enabled - but when they are off we should see some good stamina - Obviously not TH55 level, but at least => the T|5 and possibly LD.

I'd consider if for a TH55 replacement, but I'd miss all the Sony add-ons from my TH55. And I still dislike NVFS :p
Still, from a spec point of view it is pretty good. I personally think this is what the T|5 should have been 'tho, so there is a small element of 'too little, too late' there too...

[jjesusfreak01]

The thing with PPCs is that they used to have a simple design. It was a device with a lower resolution screen, and a fast processor. I dont believe many of them had unique hardware. Newer devices are adding graphics processors, but with open apis. Palm devices have always been a mishmash of different chipsets. Look at Sony devices. The older Sony handhelds had a proprietary sound processor, requiring MCA to work with most programs. Newer devices, both Sony and Palm, have graphics processors, as well as sound DSPs, and the LifeDrive has a HDD. Now, at this point Mobile Stream has reverse engineered both the GE2D library for video acceleration on Clies, and also the audio DSP on a lower level (this is some of my inside info, for those who dont know). If Sony and Palm would just release all of the docs, developers would be able to more easily make handheld specific programs.

Thats my rant, the point I am getting at is that PPC could have better battery life because the devices are simpler.

[rcartwr]

The next few months will be interesting

[Maticek]

Could you tell us some more specs of the device? Does it have Voice Recorder and Vibra?

[SoS]

Huh, seems I'll be buying a new Tungsten sooner than I thought. I can't really understand why it's only 312 Mhz CPU, maybe to eliminate the screen whine (I doubt it), maybe to increase the battery time. Hopefully this doesn't influence the multimedia usage too much.


along these lines, how much of a hit on, say, TCPMP performance on a T5 is there when underclocked to 312 MHz (Particularly on 'full-screen' high bitrate, 25fps movies)? Anyone want to give it a try??

[Maticek]

Well I was thinking more about movies that are not reencoded for use with the handheld. I know that 312 is enough to play 320x480 movies, but what's with 640x480 and a high bitrate? If you get a funny email clip this could be a problem. But for normal use it should be enough.

[Cuba]

No camera? I understand that a lot of corporations are nixing cameras in the workplace so I see that argument. I can live without it, but it puts it a step behind my TH55 on that line of the ledger.The Tungstens are business machines, if you want a camera, get a Zire.

[JAmerican]

The Tungsten|XX just looks like another T5. Basically, its like the UX40 and the UX50, just a larger release time gap. It also looks like the T|XX is the T|T5 with the ROM Update - WiFi.

JAmerican

[Athradon]

The Tungstens are business machines, if you want a camera, get a Zire.

I consider my TJ37 to be a business device, and it has a camera. The cameras in most PDA's are basically for picture memos, not for photography. I use the camera for taking quick snapshots of product information in stores, much faster/easier than writing everything down. There's no reason they can't have a camera option on a Tungsten model, like the Treo 650 has a camera and cameraless version.

[JAmerican]

The Tungstens are business machines, if you want a camera, get a Zire.

I consider my UX50 to be a school-oriented/business device as well and it has a camera and looks cool. Any device can be what you want it to be. Business people are human too. :)

JAmerican

[Antoine]

unfortunately, though many of us may be able to use camera weilding devices in our settings, others who would like to, cannot because of compnay or federal regulations. To that end, you cannot deny them a PDA because it has a camera, and at the same time, a small company like Palm should realize that within different model lines that some features would be nice to have as an option. At this time, PDAs are not full computers where you can just get one configured the way you want it. Too much that relies on other parts to get it going.

In short, Tungstens dont have a camera. Deal with it and get a Zire or Treo (of course the obvious argument is that the Zires and Treos dont have what the Tungsten's do - which was the point anyway right ;) )

[Area_Educator]

a small company like Palm should realize that within different model lines that some features would be nice to have as an option.

There's no way around it: Palm have just been stupid about this sort of thing. For instance, until 2 months ago only ever offering one device with built-in WiFi, and that one with a thumb-board. Dual wireless is nice for some people, but if they had any sense they'd've long ago offered any of their integrated blue tooth devices in an integrated WiFi version, too.

You pointed out that getting a Zire if you want a camera means you miss out on a lot of what the LD and this rumored T|XX have to offer, but I'm not sure it's possible to overstate that.

If I were to get a Zire, I'd pretty much miss out on any reason to upgrade from the Handspring Visor Platinum I've been using since Xmas 2000. Except for a camera.

The camera's kind of a special case. I can see issues regarding packaging one into the LD, for instance. But even if those issues weren't there, Plam are traditionally just dumb about options.

[Dick Tracy]

There's no way around it: Palm have just been stupid about this sort of thing. For instance, until 2 months ago only ever offering one device with built-in WiFi, and that one with a thumb-board. Dual wireless is nice for some people, but if they had any sense they'd've long ago offered any of their integrated blue tooth devices in an integrated WiFi version, too.
...
The camera's kind of a special case. I can see issues regarding packaging one into the LD, for instance. But even if those issues weren't there, Plam are traditionally just dumb about options.
I don't consider negotiating with the demands of cell carriers, Government, Military, major corporations, and other volume purchasers to be dumb or stupid. If you want them to purchase or carry your product you have to play their game. Have you ever considered why farmers are compensated by government not to raise certain crops (not that there are many truly independent farmers anymore...)?

[jhintonh]

The Tungstens are business machines, if you want a camera, get a Zire.

Good Evening-

What if I want all of the features? That is my point. My TH55 has a lot of the features I spoke of. My TH55 is MY business machine.

If you want 4GB of storage, why don't you get an iPod? Same type statement...neither fits.

How about, if you want to post...get signed up?

-Jhintonh

[jhintonh]

I consider my TJ37 to be a business device, and it has a camera. The cameras in most PDA's are basically for picture memos, not for photography. I use the camera for taking quick snapshots of product information in stores, much faster/easier than writing everything down. There's no reason they can't have a camera option on a Tungsten model, like the Treo 650 has a camera and cameraless version.

Good Evening-

I agree.

-Jhintonh

[jhintonh]

I consider my UX50 to be a school-oriented/business device as well and it has a camera and looks cool. Any device can be what you want it to be. Business people are human too. :)

JAmerican

Good Evening-

I agree with this too.

-Jhintonh

[jhintonh]

In short, Tungstens dont have a camera. Deal with it and get a Zire or Treo (of course the obvious argument is that the Zires and Treos dont have what the Tungsten's do - which was the point anyway right ;) )

Good Evening-

Indeed it was the point. And I will "deal with it" by not purchasing any of the products that do not provide what I seek. THAT is truly the point. I think you recognize that. And I would not want a Zire because is not full-screen (aka Virual Graffitti) or a Treo (do not want a convergance device). My entire post had to do with my considering upgrading...note the term UPgrading. Not sliding over..or stepping back, which is what happens when you give up features you already have on your current device. Why would I buy a PalmOne device that is less than what I already have (a TH55)? Why would PalmOne create a device that is less than what Sony produced over a year ago? That is a good question.

-Jhintonh

[jhintonh]

I don't consider negotiating with the demands of cell carriers, Government, Military, major corporations, and other volume purchasers to be dumb or stupid. If you want them to purchase or carry your product you have to play their game. Have you ever considered why farmers are compensated by government not to raise certain crops (not that there are many truly independent farmers anymore...)?

Good Evening-

Sony obviously managed. And no that is not the reason they are no longer in the game, and you know that. Sony is undergoing a massive corporate re-structuring and a smaller market that handhelds are was an easy cut.

As far as "playing their game", the last time I checked the game is still subject to its subjects: CUSTOMERS. It is the thrust of capitalism to produce a product that is desirable so that the CUSTOMERS will buy it. It is not beholden to the customer to SETTLE for whatever is easiest for the manufacturer to produce. That business plan is sure-fire failure. And perhaps that is where PalmOne is headed.

Farmers are not compensated to not raise certain crops because their corn sucks. They are paid not to grow their crops to artificially affect the market for said crop. Too much of a good thing is still too much. And too much in a free market equals devaluation of the product. If the product gets to cheap because it has been devalued since there exists so much of it (Supply & Demand 101), then it no longer becomes viable to grow that crop.

And that is why there are almost no independant farmers around in the USA anymore.

-Jhintonh

[Antoine]

"Why would PalmOne create a device that is less than what Sony produced over a year ago? That is a good question."

I agree with your posting, and apologize if I came off harshly.

With what you said that I quoted: there were/are two different philosophies about feature integration that should be taken into consideration. Palm (palmOne that is) has never introduced a feature that was completly new in and of itself, but released it when (for teh most part) it offered teh greatest ease of use and problem solving to the end user. Sony, on the other hand, used feature addition in order to pioneer markets and extend the mindset of what the end user thought that they could do. So yes, you are on point about your question. PalmOne coudl have introduced TH55 features at the same time, maybe even earlier, that Sony did the TH55. Btu they did not, either due to management, feature robustness, or both. I wish that we could have a be all end all answer to why not, but the fact remains, they are still here and Sony isnt. So either they did something right, or do a better job of convincing people than Sony did that those features were not needed then.

For me, I liked the TH55 and did not like the buttons, mem stick, and the slowness of many of the nice apps (namely CO). My T5 is not as well off in terms of battery life, but does have favorable buttons and [relative] snappiness in all apps (just give me a non bloated CO/MS OneNOte type program please). Devices are usually in develpment/testing 12 to 18 months before being released. I wonder what we will be saying abuot those Sony PDAs that never made it to market, or even better, the ones that will make it to market with somone else's name on them.

[jhintonh]

I agree with your posting, and apologize if I came off harshly.

Good Evening-

No harm assumed, no foul felt. No need to apologize...mostly, we are adults here.

I wish that we could have a be all end all answer to why not, but the fact remains, they are still here and Sony isnt. So either they did something right, or do a better job of convincing people than Sony did that those features were not needed then.

Or as I suspect, Sony makes hundreds of other products and Palm does not. Cutting one small part of their repartoire (probably spelled that wrong) is not a sign or omen as if Palm did the same, nes pas?

For me, I liked the TH55 and did not like the buttons, mem stick, and the slowness of many of the nice apps (namely CO). My T5 is not as well off in terms of battery life, but does have favorable buttons and [relative] snappiness in all apps (just give me a non bloated CO/MS OneNOte type program please).

For me battery life is King. Let's face it, all of the amazing features in the world are rendered side-show if you can only access them for unrealistic amounts of time between charges. I have been thus far satisfied with the trade off, less processing power for far greater battery life (as many as five days between charges with WiFi and MP3 use with my TH55).

I will read you around Antoine. I enjoyed your responses.

-Jhintonh

P.S. At least you are not proclaiming the "values" of a WinPPC device. LOL

[Area_Educator]

I don't consider negotiating with the demands of cell carriers, Government, Military, major corporations, and other volume purchasers to be dumb or stupid. If you want them to purchase or carry your product you have to play their game.

So your assertion is that... cell carriers prevented palm from releasing a WiFi T|5?

If you're speaking of the camera in particular, I already noted that its bulk makes it something that isn't as flexible as switching Bluetooth for WiFi. I also made no complaint about the lack of a camera on any of these devices. More to the point, the fact that some users cannot have a camera on their device (which is what I suppose you're alluding to) hardly means they couldn't offer similar devices with cameras. Packaging issues aside, producing the T|5 wouldn't keep them from producing a T|5+C.

Have you ever considered why farmers are compensated by government not to raise certain crops (not that there are many truly independent farmers anymore...)?

I understand government subsidies for crops, but I'm having trouble picturing how that applies here.

[jjesusfreak01]

So your assertion is that... cell carriers prevented palm from releasing a WiFi T|5?No, thats why the WiFi card does not work with the Treo 650 without hacks.
As for WiFi in the T5, Palm has not figured out battery management enough to do that right. The T5 does not have outstanding battery life, and WiFi would only make it worse.

[tomklaus]

I watched 30 mins of Ben Hur enocoded by Pocketdvd Studio for Palm (http://www.pqdvd.com/) at 464 x 288,500 kbps, 24 fps (video), 128 kbps, 44 kHz, stereo (audio) on my T3 using TCPMP (http://tcpmp.corecodec.org/), underclocked to 294 Mhz.

The video ran smootly. I found it acceptable, though video performance is better at 400 Mhz.

And... It seems that the battery lasted longer :)

[SKreme]

I know this is totally off topic but then again so is most of the above discussion... I am still sitting here wondering why people assume that the next Tungsten will be the T7 and not the T6. From what I understand, the only reason that palm didn't call the last one the T4 is because four is bad luck in Japan or something to that effect. Why would they skip 6? It's not like they are only doing odds (see T2 for more info).

[jhintonh]

I know this is totally off topic but then again so is most of the above discussion... I am still sitting here wondering why people assume that the next Tungsten will be the T7 and not the T6. From what I understand, the only reason that palm didn't call the last one the T4 is because four is bad luck in Japan or something to that effect. Why would they skip 6? It's not like they are only doing odds (see T2 for more info).

Good Morning-

Nothing above was off topic. Read the posts again.

It is curious that we all seem to have automatically leapt to T7. But there was no Palm VI either. It went from V to VII. So maybe that is why we are all assuming a T7. Interesting...

-Jhintonh

[Area_Educator]

No, thats why the WiFi card does not work with the Treo 650 without hacks.

If you'll look, you'll notice that I was speaking about integrated WiFi, not the cards. Less clear is that I wasn't talking about the Treos at all.

In my example regarding WiFi/Bluetooth, I'm speaking simply of offering those devices that have only one of the 2 integrated in a version that has only the other one integrated. Instead of waiting how long to ever release anything but the T|C with integreated WiFi.

Honestly, a T|C version with a silk screen (or full screen w/ virtual silk screen) instead of the thumb board would've been great, too.


As for WiFi in the T5, Palm has not figured out battery management enough to do that right. The T5 does not have outstanding battery life, and WiFi would only make it worse.


That's a good reason not to _only_ offer it with WiFi. But, I don't consider that a very good reason not to offer WiFi as an alternative. Save a little by dropping blue tooth, lose more by going with WiFi, let the user decide if that works for them.

[Antoine]

4 in some cultures is a number of death; 6 is a number of man/death/bad luck/misfortune and many manfacturers try not to use it. Though some do. Palm is smaller and therefore its rep would state to not do anything that would dismiss one of their larger markets.

T7/T5/E2 that is a nice sounding Tungsten lineup. Reminds me of the BMW lineup for some reason though.

[jjesusfreak01]

If you'll look, you'll notice that I was speaking about integrated WiFi, not the cards. Less clear is that I wasn't talking about the Treos at all.
I know, I was just ranting, using your comment as an opener.

Integrated WiFi always works better than add on solutions. Clies with built in wifi have the fastest transfer rates, and the best battery life. This new device looks nice, and may be the replacement for my TH-55.

[SKreme]

Based on what Jhin and Antoine said above I guess everyone is right to assume that the next one will be the T7. I thought that only 4 had bad connotations but apparently 6 does too. Based on the original Palm line Palm III then V then VII, it would appear that they will skip 6 too. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was wondering about it.

[Cuba]

Good Evening-

What if I want all of the features? That is my point. My TH55 has a lot of the features I spoke of. My TH55 is MY business machine.

If you want 4GB of storage, why don't you get an iPod? Same type statement...neither fits.

How about, if you want to post...get signed up?

-JhintonhI don't have a problem with Palm making two versions, one with camera, one without, but they must have a model without a camera.

What is this obsession with putting cameras on everything anyway, there can't be that many things that you HAVE to have a photo of, and most people who want cameras already have cameraphones (it's getting harder and harder to buy a decent cameraless phone too).

I haven't registered because I only use this site for news on new Tungsten models, that's it, I just get fed up with everyone wanting cameras on everything that I just felt compelled to post. I thought the Tungstens were the last bastions of cameraless tech.

[timewaster77]

i know it's completely out of their control, but the lack of Palm OS 6 is really hurting them. Palm OS 5 really isn't built for multimedia and multitasking, and both of those are quite in demand. Palm OS still beats the crap out of Windows Mobile/CE (although the few Linux PDAs that existed..those were nice as hell), but they really need to improve the OS aspect. The hardware on this looks mighty nice. Good to see they didn't throw all their weight behind the LifeDrive (no camera...sorry but with 4GB HD you need a freaking camera).

[zackepceo]

i know it's completely out of their control, but the lack of Palm OS 6 is really hurting them. Palm OS 5 really isn't built for multimedia and multitasking, and both of those are quite in demand. Palm OS still beats the crap out of Windows Mobile/CE (although the few Linux PDAs that existed..those were nice as hell), but they really need to improve the OS aspect. The hardware on this looks mighty nice. Good to see they didn't throw all their weight behind the LifeDrive (no camera...sorry but with 4GB HD you need a freaking camera).
No, PalmOne has no excuse to not use Cobalt other than laziness. It's been out for about 2 years now.

[Antoine]

No, PalmOne has no excuse to not use Cobalt other than laziness. It's been out for about 2 years now.

Actually, palmOne does have an excuse, and it lies on their bottom line. Walk with me if you will:
palmOne went thru the transistion of OS4 to OS5 models somewhat smoothly. There were some hiccups here and there, but large and away, they made the move. Granted, one can argue that until recently, there were/are still enough OS4 owners out there to still merit that attnetion to support calls. Within OS5, Palm (changed from palmOne remember) is now supporting OS5 in a few different flavors (Zire, tungsten Treo, and Life Drive). LD and Tungsten seem quite similar and probably are support wise; Treo adds carrier support as well as the existing customer support. Zire support is the most basic as there is fewer items there that need to be addressed as the bottom of those are stripped down, and the Z72 is a T3/TE with camera.

Now, take that support team managing that, and tell half of them that they will have to be dedicated to supporting Cobalt. yes, apps are supposed to work the same, but palmOne doesnt work like that. They tweaked OS5 to their liking and therefore have a good deal invested in making sure to get all of their funds out of it. Adding Cobalt would say that apps on OS5 need to work on Coblat (and without being slower and take advantage of Cobalt features). This part is less possible because OS5 is ARM in part, and Coblat is ARM in full. Basically meaning that OS5 was a bridge between OS4 and Cobalt and now has become a OS to maintain in itself.

Add to this, the fact that the Cobalt native version has been moved aside/dropped by PalmSOurce and is supplanted by Palm on Linux. PoL is a different beast and because it is not finished, leave manufacturers in the place of moving to Cobalt, and having to recompile apps for Palm on Linux, or waiting for PoL and using Garnet in the bridge capacity that it is in. Palm has chosen to use OS5 beyond its abilities until PoL is ready for most likley cost and devlopement reasons. Yes, it would be great to have it. I want Cobalt now personally; but I also know first hand support pains. It is not profitable for a company to have three OSes to support and enough people for two.

Now one can make the argument that Palm doesnt need four lines and can do this and that. they probably can. But if we were there, and knew what they knew, could we say that we'd do different. Not me. I think they have valid points, and the fact that people are still buying their products and wanting them to produce a Cobalt device must mean they are doing something good. If that is not the case, then they will get swallowed up because the complete Cobalt OS was not delievered to them as promised, and they were forced to hack something different.

[SonyStyle]

palmone should really hire a designer for the new T | XX, i think palmone is smart reducing the processor to 312mhz. btw, u can alwayas overclock it.

[lmame]

Sony, come back and save US !!!

[jjesusfreak01]

The problem is that if they wait too long, there are going to be more and more ARM apps for the Palm OS. And, the problem with that is that I am fairly sure alot of code is going to have to be rewritten because the ARM calls are different in Cobalt. If they wait to long, it will be a pain.

[SKreme]

Antoine- Where do you get all this info from???
Imame- Ya, I wish Sony would get back into the market. I had two clie's and I would have bought a third if Sony hadn't left.

[Antoine]

Between talking to Palm and asking, and then just looking at the news as things are reported, I put one plus one together. Specifically concerning PalmOne and Cobalt, I asked them for a simple explaination of why not Cobalt yet and basically it was said that it was an issue of cost and support. Makes sense to me as a small company that has less resources to concentrate on what you can most get profit from. Now, if Cobalt was ready when it was supposed to be, I think we would have seen a few Cobalt devices already from PalmOne. But that is just an opinion, not a fact.

[palmato]

But sooner or later they will have to take the plunge. Developers will not use the extra features until the cobalt roadmap becomes clear.

Also my understanding is that pure cobalt is not dead, and may appear in palm(one) pda devices, while the linux version would mostly be targeted at phone manufacturers.

[Antoine]

I think PalmOne will just do PoL; others will probably do Cobalt as is though. Who knows until it happens...I just want a new fancy device that does nice thingys with nice fonts :D

[jhintonh]

What is this obsession with putting cameras on everything anyway, there can't be that many things that you HAVE to have a photo of, and most people who want cameras already have cameraphones (it's getting harder and harder to buy a decent cameraless phone too).

Good Evening-

Glad you asked as it points to my use of the TH55 as a "business" tool. I am an engineer and I have to routinely make project site visits, including today. Rather than write out a huge punchlist of deficincies, I used the CLIE camera on my TH55 to video record a narated walk-through showing my points of issue. Then when I returned to the office I downloaded the small film and emailed it to the contractors. Massive time-saver.

I haven't registered because I only use this site for news on new Tungsten models, that's it, I just get fed up with everyone wanting cameras on everything that I just felt compelled to post. I thought the Tungstens were the last bastions of cameraless tech.

I am not "camera-crazy" either, but they can be useful. The best camera is the one you have with you when you need one. And besides, haven't you heard: a picture is worth a thousand words. Which means using that conversion factor, most of my posts are about three pictures long :).

-Jhintonh

[Gekko]

Jhintonh - I have read your last several posts in this thread and I like the way you think. Your thoughts are straight, direct, no nonsense, logical, without apologies, and they cut through all the BS. I agree with many of your thoughts.

Best wishes

G

[Gekko]

The problem is that if they wait too long, there are going to be more and more ARM apps for the Palm OS. And, the problem with that is that I am fairly sure alot of code is going to have to be rewritten because the ARM calls are different in Cobalt. If they wait to long, it will be a pain.

Tyranny of the Installed Base - The greatest roadblock to change in any technology, especially hardware, is the current installed base of users. A change means more expense, more incompatibilities and extra support costs. The larger the number of users, the more difficult it becomes to establish a new technology. In the trade, this is called the tyranny of the installed base. Take the floppy as an example. When the floppy was first released, it provided a complete solution for inexpensive PC storage. The transition from 5.25-inch to 3.5-inch media was tough for some customers, but quickly its benefits were accepted in the market. (Of course, it helped when the cost of media fell to reasonable levels. Believe it or not, a single 400KB diskette once cost about $10).

[Antoine]

Just a programming note about Cobalt, it is designed to run the same apps that Garnet is. The addition to Cobalt is that it would be able to run ARM native apps, not just apps with pieces of ARM code.

I agree with the above comment about the installed base as a barrier to innovation as well.

[Ezikial Anta]

I want this thing and I even own a LifeDrive...

[jjesusfreak01]

Just a programming note about Cobalt, it is designed to run the same apps that Garnet is. The addition to Cobalt is that it would be able to run ARM native apps, not just apps with pieces of ARM code.

I agree with the above comment about the installed base as a barrier to innovation as well.
Dont say that too loud, Dmitry has written multiple fully ARM applications.

[jhintonh]

Jhintonh - I have read your last several posts in this thread and I like the way you think. Your thoughts are straight, direct, no nonsense, logical, without apologies, and they cut through all the BS. I agree with many of your thoughts.

Best wishes

G

Good Morning-

I appreciate that kind comment, Gekko. And best wishes to you as well my friend.

-Jhintonh

[Antoine]

Not saying that writing fully ARM isnt possible, many have done it; I only said it to speak what palmsource speaks, not what was done by others ;)

[jjesusfreak01]

Not saying that writing fully ARM isnt possible, many have done it; I only said it to speak what palmsource speaks, not what was done by others ;)
I understand, Palm just doesn't provide the APIs for fully ARM apps.

[dragonsgames]

Did anyone notice that in prefs next to wifi and bluetooth it says "Phone". Do all BT and WiFi devices say that, or could this be a phone too.

[djembe1]

Did anyone notice that in prefs next to wifi and bluetooth it says "Phone". Do all BT and WiFi devices say that, or could this be a phone too.

My T3 has the phone option - it's used to configure the connection from the PDA to a phone.