1src Forums - 1SRC Podcast TwentySeven

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 02:32 PM

This is a reply to the article at solomedia. The podcast is still downloading on my PC.

PalmOS' original design is great. At every hotsync, your data is backup'ed. With USB's and OS 5-5.1's speed a restore takes just a couple of minute or less. No need for NVFS. Fully drained battery is a seldom occurence, and if Palm has include a cradle with most, this would even lessen that further, I know that most people will just put the Palm in their cradle overnight to charge. And even with a fully drained battery, there's probably enough juice for a few hours to tide you over until you run home to charge it.

They could easily workaround 'not-near a PC' backup problem by putting a little NVFS as external drive and automatically back up the RAM once every 12 hours or so. Instead NVFS broke all backup solutions and the promised (?) fix is 6-months too late. So without backup solutions, you really will have to rely on NVFS and hope you don't have to hardreset on the road...

NVFS is neat, if it works. But PalmOne and Palmsource (?) did it all wrong. When OS5 comes out, resets takes 5 seconds or less, that to many is a big improvement, a real sign that Palm OS 5 is superior to OS 4. But with NVFS and its super slow boot up time, many people think Palm OS is regressing instead of going forward. PDAs are supposed to be boot up quickly, so that you could jot something down and move on to your next task. Resets do happen, and if you just want to jot something down and a reset occurs, you'll be pulling your hair if you have to wait 20 seconds (T5) or a minute (Lifedrive) for the OS to boot up again when you want to jot something down.

NVFS also broke many an applications, sure many of them are not well-written. But do you expect every developer to fix their application everytime a new device shows up? Palm's advantage is huge boatload of software, but if you really count what's working on NVFS, maybe the count will be drawfed by Windows Mobile. More great Windows Mobile apps are showing up these days than Palm do. Check Palmgear and Pocketgear.

A sign that NVFS broke many applications, is that there are now compatibility threads. Sure a big OS upgrade, say OS 4 to OS 5 will break some. But OS 5.1 to OS 5.4 is supposed to be incremental and slight improvements. And if they knew that it will break many apps, they should have told the developers and the community beforehand, so that there's a smooth transition. Microsoft did it with SP2, Apple is doing it now with it's shift to Intel chips. Palm? They hide it and suddenly dumped a buggy and poorly beta-tested unit and OS on end -users.

And with applications, yes, you will have to install new versions, get new conduits, etc, etc, etc...now where are the days when you could put a new Plam unit in and just sync your old data and its ready to go? I don't think the masses want to hae to upgrade all their applications again and again...and some developers even charge for them. Take Agendus, if you are content with version 7 or 8, why upgrade to 9? But if you get a new NVFS unit, you'll be forced to because only version 9 works on NVFS units.

And there's PalmOne stupid implementation of Lifedrive. Just HD RAM as NVFS. That's sheer stupidity. The Cache is too small for a multimedia device. If only that device has RAM , then it will be zippier and I am sure many a Palm user will upgrade to one, as it is, some do but many don't.

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 02:38 PM

One more thing, NVFS may be the worst thing to come to Palm. As stated NVFS is neat, if it work smoothly, but currently, it don't. Had Palm not concentrated on it (and fixing its many bugs), Palm might have designed better and more consumer-friendly products. NVFS on Palm looks like alpha software (the 512k-size bug should have been catched by any decent beta-test team!). It's not ready for release, yet PalmOne released it and let the end-users act as guinea pigs and beta-testers.

Cyker

06-08-2005, 02:55 PM

NVFS their biggest innovation? There's nothing innovate about it - PPC's have been able to do that since they had SD cards! NVFS is just a bad implementation of an idea that's been around since computers were invented.

Now, don't get me wrong - The idea is a good and sound one. The dependence of Palms and PDA's in general on their batteries to keep the RAM alive has definitely been one of their stupider problems. This whole 'charge all the time' thing is annoying, although since I sync regularly it's not really much of an issue for me, but for the phone crowd, you are right - It's essential.

The reason I despise NVFS so much is purely the implementation. Of course, this has no bearing in the real-world (Most users don't know or care how it works - Heck, I bet most of them wouldn't even know the LD had a hard disk unless it was pointed out to them!), which would automatically render most of any rant I'd make in that direction irrelevent.

I do take issue about the stability and buggy programs thing 'tho - That's just not fair on the coders.
See, NVFS works *exactly* the same way as running a program off VFS via the \PALM\Launcher directory, and we already knew that a lot of programs didn't like that - Despite this, Palm extended that over the system, hid a few things and rename a few things and didn't even consider any consequences.

That's why it's such a pain in the *** for stability - We all know that lots of non-trivial programs wouldn't work properly when run from \PALM\Launcher.

When NVFS came out, almost *every* non-trivial program had to be re-written to work around NVFS. Not because they were buggy, but because NVFS broke so many of the old PalmOS rules, and in doing so broke compatibility, IMHO unnecessarily.

Luckily, this isn't such a visible problem now - Only older programs (Like the ones I use alas) haven't had NVFS workaround hacks coded into them so, for the most part, we're back at the status quo. Maybe a few more unexplained crashes, but again most people won't notice or care as long as their data doesn't get wiped out.

The wiping of the NVFS during a hard reset is a Good Thing - As you say, if it didn't then a Hard Reset would be pointless. Even Real RAM devices effectively null-write all their RAM (By cutting power ;)) when hard reset, so it's just a logical continuation.
That said 'tho, the null-writing of VFS areas is stupid stupid stupid. There is no good reason for this. Also, I thought only the LifeDrive did this, but I'm told the T|5 does it to it's internal FlashRAM too - Is this true?! (I hope not!!)

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 03:14 PM

Surur

06-08-2005, 03:31 PM

Jeff, you started out so well, but by half way through you were again up to your apologists ways. Non-volatility is good, but Palm's solution was just cr*p. I understand it was forced on them by the architecture of the OS. Doesn't mean it works well at all, and if it results in very fragile, sensitive, unreliable devices it negates all the battery-related advantages.

As usual you blame the users and their "third party software". How dare they install software from anyone else but Palm on their pocket computers? Funny that versamail and bazer themselves seem sufficient to bring a LifeDrive to its knees on some web pages and e-mail messages.

Do you always end with "This is the situation, Palm is a monopoly, you have no choice, now shut up and stop complaining"?

Surur

Surur

06-08-2005, 03:39 PM

BTW, since Palm has introduced non-volatile devices they have sold less handheld PDA's, not more. Maybe what has been exhausted is not the geek market, but the people who feel their lives are so complicated they needed a PIM to manage it. Growth is now coming from other areas such as GPS navigation (who would have though that would be the killer app?) wireless Internet and information appliances bought by bosses for their menial workers. For all of these Palm's now legendary unreliability just will not cut it.

Surur

smoothjordan

06-08-2005, 03:48 PM

Alan G

06-08-2005, 03:58 PM

Ok, this is already shaping up to be a lively disucssion. I look at NVFS more from an end customer perspective. I have to support the executive team in my office. And the single most annyoing pain for me is: they don't want to carry all of this stuff and they always forget to charge their devices. This includes cell phones, Blackberries, and Palm OS handhelds. I always end up getting involved when someone forgets to charge their Palm and the batteries die. palmOne's implementation of NVFS is going to cut down on the number of support calls not only for me, but for the general help desk at my company. So, there is my $0.02 on the subject. Making things easier for the cusomter I feel, is an important feature for any mobile tech device that a company wants to sell.

Alan G

archangel

06-08-2005, 03:59 PM

NFVS might be a good idea someday, but Palmone has a lot of work to do before that day comes (maybe when they finally move beyond Garnet this will be a major plus). It is probably not a step backward, but it is far from a step forward at this point. I certainly have no interest in the NFVS of the T5 or Lifedrive at this point. It is far from a hardship to backup my PDA to my SD card in case of a battery failure or hard reset and just restore everything that way in the ultra rare occassion of that even happening. Much simplier than putting up with the headaches of the current NFVS PDAs.

LupeValenz

06-08-2005, 04:27 PM

I think most people respond to the 1-2 second lag because Palm was known for their simplicity and their quick access. Now they are slowly losing ground on this and before we know it, PPC and Palms won't be that diffrent from each other. With all this talk bout resets and how they do happen, well I think I been blessed by Sony. I think Sony handhelds are VERY reliable. My first PDA was an NX70, then it just increased. I always stayed with Sony and have very rarely experienced any kind of resets. Before TH55, I never knew how to do a hard reset and think before TH55, I think I had about total of 5 soft resets from the NX70 to the UX50. Why before TH55? Well, lately I was brave to test out beta programs and well, they are sooo cool I HAD to test them out but yeah, I had some problems because of that hehehe but before these enhancements, still VERY rarely (like soft reset 2 times) did I have to soft reset my TH and for my first hard reset (PicselBrowser problems :() I had to go in my manual and find out how to do it. :eek:

Then again, I guess I usually don't put TOO much misc apps on my PDA, I only put apps that are well known. *Docs2go, Zlauncher, AcidImage, etc*

Cyker

06-08-2005, 04:28 PM

since when did PPC have NFVS? Please tell me, I've owned three and they all don't survive after losing battery life. You get 30 mins to get it to a power source or you lose your data. Jeff, great podcast as usual, NVFS rules, it makes the bat life much better.

They don't have NVFS in the Palm sense, but ever since you could put an SD card into a PPC they have had non-volatile storaqe: You see, with a PPC, you can load/run/save ALL progs & docs off an SD card directly - My friend runs his iPaq with O% of his internal RAM reserved for storage - He runs and saves everything to and from SD seamlessly - He's never worried about batteries.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 04:36 PM

PalmOS' original design is great. At every hotsync, your data is backup'ed. With USB's and OS 5-5.1's speed a restore takes just a couple of minute or less. No need for NVFS. Fully drained battery is a seldom occurence, and if Palm has include a cradle with most, this would even lessen that further, I know that most people will just put the Palm in their cradle overnight to charge. And even with a fully drained battery, there's probably enough juice for a few hours to tide you over until you run home to charge it.

For you, maybe. But again, "regular" people aren't going to bother with that. They just won't. I've seen hundreds of "dead" PDAs that just needed a charge and restore. But why make people do that if the device doesn't have to get amnesia every time the battery goes dead?

So without backup solutions, you really will have to rely on NVFS and hope you don't have to hardreset on the road...

There it is again. I don't know how much simpler I can say this.

You should never, EVER, have to do a hard reset. There is almost always a less destructive way of solving the problem.

I'd hate to be with you hard reset people on a camping trip.

Billy: Mom! I got a scrape on my knee!

Dad: He's done for. Shoot him.

NVFS is neat, if it works. But PalmOne and Palmsource (?) did it all wrong. When OS5 comes out, resets takes 5 seconds or less, that to many is a big improvement, a real sign that Palm OS 5 is superior to OS 4. But with NVFS and its super slow boot up time, many people think Palm OS is regressing instead of going forward. PDAs are supposed to be boot up quickly, so that you could jot something down and move on to your next task. Resets do happen, and if you just want to jot something down and a reset occurs, you'll be pulling your hair if you have to wait 20 seconds (T5) or a minute (Lifedrive) for the OS to boot up again when you want to jot something down.

What are you doing that you have to reset so often? I have the "horrible" T5 and I don't reset at all unless I'm knowingly doing something stupid. For example, I've had more than my usual resets recently because I'm running SkinUI, which is still in beta. But that's a decision I've made and I know the consequences. I also know that if I removed the unfinished software, my T5 would be rock solid again.

But again, you're making a strawman argument. 99% of the time, the device isn't going to reset when you turn it on to jot something down. It's instant on, just like other Palms.

NVFS also broke many an applications, sure many of them are not well-written. But do you expect every developer to fix their application everytime a new device shows up?

No, I expect them to get it right the first time. Stick to the rules, ferret out the bugs, and nobody gets hurt.

I don't think the masses want to hae to upgrade all their applications again and again...and some developers even charge for them. Take Agendus, if you are content with version 7 or 8, why upgrade to 9? But if you get a new NVFS unit, you'll be forced to because only version 9 works on NVFS units.

One of the reasons I no longer use Agendus. It's buggy to begin with, and then they charge for bug fixes.

And there's PalmOne stupid implementation of Lifedrive. Just HD RAM as NVFS. That's sheer stupidity. The Cache is too small for a multimedia device. If only that device has RAM , then it will be zippier and I am sure many a Palm user will upgrade to one, as it is, some do but many don't.

Did you read or listen to a word I said?

If it had RAM, it wouldn't be able to survive a dead battery.

"That submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine..."

archangel

06-08-2005, 04:38 PM

With all this talk bout resets and how they do happen, well I think I been blessed by Sony. I think Sony handhelds are VERY reliable.
Man, I had a ton of hard resets out of no where with my OS5 Sony Clies. I lost the data on my NX80 many times and had to restore it from the memory stick. It was probably because I had to use so many hacks like the Cliepet audio hack to make the thing functional though. I like the Clie for innovation but it was not all that reliable in my experience.

My Zodiac will crash occasionally but I have yet to have it hard reset on me. The Zod has been by far my most reliable PDA since the S300.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 04:39 PM

(the 512k-size bug should have been catched by any decent beta-test team!)

Okay, just a quick note, and I might be prickly here:

The 512 byte issue on the T5 may be a poor design choice, but it's not a bug. It doesn't maximize memory storage, but it does work as designed. The NVFS-related bug on the T5 (which the forthcoming ROM update should patch) is that the T5, quite unlike the TE2 and the LifeDrive, sometimes isn't aggressive enough in clearing the DBcache, allowing it to run out of memory. For now, the freeware DBcacheTool solves this problem.

archangel

06-08-2005, 04:47 PM

If it had RAM, it wouldn't be able to survive a dead battery.

"That submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine..."

Wait, couldn't they use the same kind of internal storage as the T5 (you wouldn't need 256mb) to store your programs on and save the HDD simply for external storage? Yes, it would increase Palmone's cost, but it would increase the speed of the device and save battery life.

If the next version of the Lifedrive is less expensive to produce I would like to see Palmone go in this direction. Save that HDD as a big SD card so it doesn't need to be accessed constantly for normal non multimedia use.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 04:48 PM

NVFS their biggest innovation? There's nothing innovate about it - PPC's have been able to do that since they had SD cards! NVFS is just a bad implementation of an idea that's been around since computers were invented.

Ah, but it doesn't really work that way. Until WM5 (which works almost exactly like NVFS), if you let the battery on your PPC go dead, you lose all your PIM data, your registry and any applications (today themes, plugins, etc.) that had to be installed in RAM.

I do take issue about the stability and buggy programs thing 'tho - That's just not fair on the coders.
See, NVFS works *exactly* the same way as running a program off VFS via the \PALM\Launcher directory, and we already knew that a lot of programs didn't like that - Despite this, Palm extended that over the system, hid a few things and rename a few things and didn't even consider any consequences.

In other words, coders have had four years to get ready for this and still messed it up, yes? Anything that worked properly on a VFS m505 should work properly with NVFS.

The wiping of the NVFS during a hard reset is a Good Thing - As you say, if it didn't then a Hard Reset would be pointless. Even Real RAM devices effectively null-write all their RAM (By cutting power ;)) when hard reset, so it's just a logical continuation.

That said 'tho, the null-writing of VFS areas is stupid stupid stupid. There is no good reason for this. Also, I thought only the LifeDrive did this, but I'm told the T|5 does it to it's internal FlashRAM too - Is this true?! (I hope not!!)

Again, did you actually read what I wrote or listen to the podcast?

Here, let me refresh your memory:

As for losing everything on a hard reset, I've done a lot of thinking about this and really, that's by design. If your Palm is screwed up enough to require a hard reset, then Palm has no way of knowing whether the source of the problem is in the storage heap (the 64MB section of the T5/LifeDrive pretending to be RAM) or on the internal drive. It's simply safer to wipe everything and go back to factory defaults. If they'd only wiped the storage heap and that didn't fix the problem, you'd have a doorstop.

As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.

"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 04:51 PM

Wait, couldn't they use the same kind of internal storage as the T5 (you wouldn't need 256mb) to store your programs on and save the HDD simply for external storage? Yes, it would increase Palmone's cost, but it would increase the speed of the device and save battery life.
Yes, but only marginally. If I were Palm, I'd decide that the performance benefits weren't worth the money and added complexity. (You'd have to have a motherboard with both RAM and Flash, and the hard drive controller at that point. Too many chips.)

Really, folks. Try a LifeDrive for yourself. The lag is not noticeably longer than the one on my T5.

applejosh

06-08-2005, 04:55 PM

Okay, just a quick note, and I might be prickly here:

The 512 byte issue on the T5 may be a poor design choice, but it's not a bug. It doesn't maximize memory storage, but it does work as designed. The NVFS-related bug on the T5 (which the forthcoming ROM update should patch) is that the T5, quite unlike the TE2 and the LifeDrive, sometimes isn't aggressive enough in clearing the DBcache, allowing it to run out of memory. For now, the freeware DBcacheTool solves this problem.

Agreed. The 512 byte issue doesn't bother me as much as the memory errors. My problem is that the "fix" has been coming for 6 months. I know you're of the belief that it's just not worth it for PalmOne to fix the little things. The problem is the "general" public listens to people who use their devices every day. And those of us that do grow increasingly annoyed at the fact that it takes so long to fix bugs, but they have time to develop new devices with the fixes in place. (Which along a parallel line is why I don't buy things like Agendus any more.) You can't sacrifice past devices just to get new devices out the door. People will stop going that route because they feel the quality is suffering (regardless if it's because they install third party software, which is what helps drive sales among the power users who make recommendations to the less knowing population).

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 04:58 PM

Jeff, you started out so well, but by half way through you were again up to your apologists ways.

And here I was just commenting yesterday that Surur has been making some well-thought-out, reasoned and cogent posts recently. Guess it was just a phase.

As usual you blame the users and their "third party software". How dare they install software from anyone else but Palm on their pocket computers? Funny that versamail and bazer themselves seem sufficient to bring a LifeDrive to its knees on some web pages and e-mail messages.

And some web pages bring Firefox to its knees. I agree that Blazer and VersaMail aren't perfect. I use SnapperMail, myself. Also looking at PicselBrowser.

I expect developers to do their job and write solid code. I expect users to realize when an application is a buggy piece of crap and stop using it.

Do you always end with "This is the situation, Palm is a monopoly, you have no choice, now shut up and stop complaining"?

Yellow card, Surur! This ain't PIC. We don't play that way here.

Surur

06-08-2005, 05:01 PM

As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.

"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

How can you say that with a straight face? Once you clear the 64MB, how would the LD know you had malignant software on your SD card/Drive? Its these kind of lame excuses that get you labeled an apologist.

Surur

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 05:02 PM

It is far from a hardship to backup my PDA to my SD card in case of a battery failure or hard reset and just restore everything that way in the ultra rare occassion of that even happening. Much simplier than putting up with the headaches of the current NFVS PDAs.

Again, "normal" people won't do it. For cryin' out loud, how many of you regularly back up your PCs? I don't.

And what headaches are you talking about? Again, running stable software, my T5 is quite stable.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 05:05 PM

They don't have NVFS in the Palm sense, but ever since you could put an SD card into a PPC they have had non-volatile storaqe: You see, with a PPC, you can load/run/save ALL progs & docs off an SD card directly - My friend runs his iPaq with O% of his internal RAM reserved for storage - He runs and saves everything to and from SD seamlessly - He's never worried about batteries.

There are some things you cannot run from a card on a Pocket PC without major problems:

Device drivers

Today plugins

Today themes

Anything that sets and alarm

Also, your PIM databases always go in RAM.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 05:10 PM

Agreed. The 512 byte issue doesn't bother me as much as the memory errors. My problem is that the "fix" has been coming for 6 months. I know you're of the belief that it's just not worth it for PalmOne to fix the little things. The problem is the "general" public listens to people who use their devices every day. And those of us that do grow increasingly annoyed at the fact that it takes so long to fix bugs, but they have time to develop new devices with the fixes in place. (Which along a parallel line is why I don't buy things like Agendus any more.) You can't sacrifice past devices just to get new devices out the door. People will stop going that route because they feel the quality is suffering (regardless if it's because they install third party software, which is what helps drive sales among the power users who make recommendations to the less knowing population).

I still contend that PalmOne was right to focus on getting the Treo and LifeDrive working, but the T5 fix is coming. Should be available within a month.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 05:12 PM

How can you say that with a straight face? Once you clear the 64MB, how would the LD know you had malignant software on your SD card/Drive? Its these kind of lame excuses that get you labeled an apologist.

Because, oh, I don't know...

The Palm scans the card on boot up?

I'm all for having a civilized discussion with you, Surur, but don't troll. It would be a shame if you couldn't post here.

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 05:18 PM

You should never, EVER, have to do a hard reset. There is almost always a less destructive way of solving the problem.
Yeah, but does anyone knows about the warm reset solution? Few people do, so do you expect newbies to know? And if its a Lifedrive, you wouldn't even know its still booting up, if you see it stucked for say 30-seconds or more , many people would thought that the device is frozen and press the reset again..

There it is again. I don't know how much simpler I can say this.
But if the T5 does not have the bug, then backup solutions should work (no need to rely on NVFS). Palm should have included one(Backup-to-card software). Sony has one since their OS4 units.

But again, you're making a strawman argument. 99% of the time, the device isn't going to reset when you turn it on to jot something down. It's instant on, just like other Palms.

Yeah, but 99% of the time, the device will not drains itself out of juice either.

No, I expect them to get it right the first time. Stick to the rules, ferret out the bugs, and nobody gets hurt.

Not true. Everybody get hurt. The end-user has to endure a less than ideal experience. The developer has to waste time recoding their software. And PalmOne get less sales because fewer people will upgrade.

Did you read or listen to a word I said?
If it (Lifedrive) had RAM, it wouldn't be able to survive a dead battery.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have to access the HD as often and with a 1660 mAh battery, it would last a long time. The Tungsten C has an almost similar capcity battery (1800 mah if I am not wrong) and it's last a long time even with intermitent use of Wifi. And there are other solutions to dead battery, they could do the PPC solution - a lithium battery like those on motherboards to save the data until the next charge. And of course, user-replaceable batteries.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 05:29 PM

Yeah, but does anyone knows about the warm reset solution? Few people do, so do you expect newbies to know? And if its a Lifedrive, you wouldn't even know its still booting up, if you see it stucked for say 30-seconds or more , many people would thought that the device is frozen and press the reset again..

How to do a warm reset is in the manual. And how did these hypothetical newbies learn to do a hard reset? Is it instinctive?

To borrow Dmitry's .sig:

if (!clue) {
RTFM()
}

Not true. Everybody get hurt.

So let me get this straight. You're saying the users get hurt if the developers don't follow the rules and write stable code to begin with? I'm sorry, I can't support that. Developers have an obligation to write stable code, and the OS must run it as per the rules. I don't expect any OS to run any darn fool buggy crap that's thrown at it with no problems.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have to access the HD as often and with a 1660 mAh battery, it would last a long time. The Tungsten C has an almost similar capcity battery (1800 mah if I am not wrong) and it's last a long time even with intermitent use of Wifi. And there are other solutions to dead battery, they could do the PPC solution - a lithium battery like those on motherboards to save the data until the next charge. And of course, user-replaceable batteries.

And again, that submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine.

You're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter how big a battery you put in it. Regular people used to the way cell phones work will not accept data loss on a dead battery.

NVFS is necessary. Deal with it.

And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.

Edit: Crimeny! You guys are making me sound like Surur accuses me of sounding! Agh!

Cyker

06-08-2005, 05:30 PM

Ah, but it doesn't really work that way. Until WM5 (which works almost exactly like NVFS), if you let the battery on your PPC go dead, you lose all your PIM data, your registry and any applications (today themes, plugins, etc.) that had to be installed in RAM.
Really? Mmmm, I must admit that as I don't have a PPC I don't know, but my friend has never had any trouble with that stuff. Maybe there's some sort of extra hack he's using...?

In other words, coders have had four years to get ready for this and still messed it up, yes? Anything that worked properly on a VFS m505 should work properly with NVFS.
Again, I think this is being unfair on the coders - The programs worked perfectly in their intended method until Palm BROKE them and forced them to workaround the VFS bugs when they could have been doing more useful things like adding functionality and streamlining the program.

Again, did you actually read what I wrote or listen to the podcast?Woah! Okay dude, calm down. You're gettin' snarky! :eek:

As long as you don't wipe everything, the problem could still live on that card and keep causing trouble. Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.
Okay, this needs some serious perspective shifting.

Right, first thing: Have you EVER had to FORMAT a MemoryStick/SD card because it still caused a hard reset after a crash?! I've NEVER had a hard reset situation that required me to format an inserted MemoryStick/VFS and I bet you and everyone else haven't either!

Now, zeroing out the main RAM is understandable, but clearing out the VFS areas? You know what that'd be like? That'd be like your computer formatting it's hard disk when you hit the reset switch!

There is NO reason for *any* computer to do that without user intervention!
Programs CANNOT be executed directly from secondary storage like VFS - They HAVE to be copied to executable RAM first which is why all NVFS devices still need this hidden RAM, so even if a program was corrupted on there the user would have to manually run it!

"Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
Well, I wouldn't have picked that particular quote given that in it's context it didn't fix the biggest bug of all ;)

The way the quote system on this board makes it painful to reply like this :(

I don't know why this subject keeps riling people up so much (Including me it must be said), but I guess it's the little details that people pick at the most.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter - The end user will use what they got and chuck it if it doesn't do what they want.

At the end of the day, my bottom line on the subject is that NVFS is a good idea but the implementation is poor. I think most would agree.

I can only hope that whoever it is that bought the M-RAM patent get off their collective donkeys and bring it to market, then we can get Palms with real RAM that is not volatile, stop arguing about such a trivial things and get onto more important things... (Like PPC bashing! :D (j/k ;))

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 05:37 PM

So let me get this straight. You're saying the users get hurt if the developers don't follow the rules and write stable code to begin with? I'm sorry, I can't support that. Developers have an obligation to write stable code, and the OS must run it as per the rules. I don't expect any OS to run any darn fool buggy crap that's thrown at it with no problems.
I am not a developer so I can't say that what breaks the applications are wrong coding, but in my opinion, it might be a mix of wrong coding and new rules that the NVFS-enabled OS put out there.

And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.
Persistent storage is good, it's Palm's implementation that's lacking. We'll see how Windows Mobile 5.0 device handles them when they arrive.

LupeValenz

06-08-2005, 05:38 PM

And FYI, Windows Mobile is doing the exact same thing with persistent storage in WM 5.0. This is the new normal. Adapt or perish.

Ohhh, geting lil hot in here ^.^ someone bring the hose in quick!! Also this adapt or perish...well, I'll just perish when my THea dies :(. :(

strider_mt2k

06-08-2005, 05:41 PM

Hoo boy, so many good points, and heroes -on both sides.
(please excuse spelling at the cost of knocking this post out)

I started the two pages of notes I took on this podcast in big letters:
WIN ME OVER TO NVFS, JEFF

Now that the dust has cleared, i'd have to say you have...
...and you haven't.

Data protected by non-volatile ram: good for sure and an excellent point
redoing my phone would suck and was well illustrated

Not needing 3rd party workarounds for this also a great point -
(Don't make me add up how much I've spent on workarounds, it only makes your point.)
However, we haven't eliminated the need for them, have we?
Nope, we just need DIFFERENT KINDS NOW! And the need is GREATER from a hard core -just-making-it-work standpoint!

New buyers are going to be more willing to do THIS more than the other stuff?

Hard Drive for STORAGE: good..but
The reasoning that too many chips are neccessary for running the system with RAM and using a HD for storage isn't strong.
This is 2005, we can integrate, can we not?
I'd like to see some moderately to hard core techincal reasons why not, no offense.

There is a ton of 3rd party software out there, man that's true.
And a very large community that supports that stuff.

My big questions are these:

Did the use of non-volatile RAM to keep our data safe REALLY AND TRULY REQUIRE all these specific changes that Palm made?
Booting from the HD for instance? Isn't our data already in this non-volatile RAM?
Shouldn't it just work like the other stuff did, or at least be made to do that in hardware? So that it works like it did-only better? Doesn't look better still.

Was the need to cater to newcomers and the sales THEY will generate worth alienating (nuking from orbit, if you will) the very (and non unsubstancial) community and developer base that put 'em where they are today?

Is the trouble with Fitaly and G1 workarounds being caused by truly unfortunate programming stuff, or, in more ways that one, is Palm trying to shuck the above mentioned community and it's liking for running the stuff that they want to as individuals in exchange for locking folks in to what THEY sell 'em.

I don't know, to me, loyalty kind of has to run both ways.
(Clie owners are NOT neccessarily LOYAL to Sony, me included.)

archangel

06-08-2005, 05:46 PM

NVFS is necessary. Deal with it.

I have to totally disagree with you there. I have no problem with Palm coming up with solutions to deal with the poor battery life their devices have now, but NVFS has never been needed on any PDA I have owned. Its called backing up your device to the memory card and it works a hell of a lot better than losing 4GBs of data if one of the many programs that doesn't work with NFVS cause a hard reset. If users are too lazy or stupid to back up their PDAs, especially if they will be away from the PC to restore it then the problem is with the users not the device.

I've got no problems in theory with NVFS, but Palm did not handle the change to it well at all. I should not have to pay $500 to beta test for Palmone.

Surur

06-08-2005, 05:53 PM

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 06:01 PM

I have to totally disagree with you there. I have no problem with Palm coming up with solutions to deal with the poor battery life their devices have now, but NVFS has never been needed on any PDA I have owned. Its called backing up your device to the memory card and it works a hell of a lot better than losing 4GBs of data if one of the many programs that doesn't work with NFVS cause a hard reset. If users are too lazy or stupid to back up their PDAs, especially if they will be away from the PC to restore it then the problem is with the users not the device.

Okay, again...

Regular, cell-phone using, non-geeky pwople will NOT futz around with backup cards. They just won't. Period. If you were Ed Colligan, and it was your job to sell more Palms, would you tell this giant untapped market, "Yes, it's a pain in the rear, but that's the way it is. Take it or leave it!" I sure as heck wouldn't.

You don't need NVFS. Fine. Bully for you. But you're not the target market here. This is a business, and they need to sell more Palms. Sticking with volatile RAM isn't going to get that done.

And again with the hard resets. When can we let this paper tiger lie? In normal usage, a spontaneous hard reset shouldn't be any more common than the same phenomenon on your cell phone. How many times has your cell phone forced you to reset it to factory defaults? Never? Hmmm...

Warm resets and stable software, people. Hard resets are bad mojo. Don't do 'em!

And if it really tweaks you that much, newer NVFS devices like the LifeDrive give you the option to back up the entire 4GB hard drive to your PC at every hotsync. So the old "just go back to your PC, hotsync and your're back in business" defense still holds if you absolutely can't resist doing a hard reset.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 06:04 PM

Ok, Jeff is not liking my language, but what else does "Adapt or perish" mean than "Be quite and get with the system. Stop complaining" ?

Yeah, I've already commented on that. It is, of course, all your fault for making me sound the way you say I sound. ;)

Either way, despite the desirability of a non-volatile system, Palm really messed up in implementation. If they did it for the sake of new users they have failed. They have not grown their market, and they have shipped 23% less handheld devices than last year, despite the non-volatile T5. Was this worth gaining a reputation for instability and bugginess?

I don't think the T5 has a reputation for instability and bugginess beyond our little insular geek community. And you know as well as I do that those numbers are misleading. Add back in the missing Treos and they're doing just fine, thank you. And the Treo 650 does have NVFS, and I hear it's a substantial selling point for people that had passed on the Treo 600.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 06:11 PM

Again, I think this is being unfair on the coders - The programs worked perfectly in their intended method until Palm BROKE them and forced them to workaround the VFS bugs when they could have been doing more useful things like adding functionality and streamlining the program.

But again, if the applications had been written properly and according to Palm OS programming guidelines in the first place, there wouldn't be any problem at all, would there?

(This is starting to sound like the Jessup cross at the end of "A Few Good Men"...)

Woah! Okay dude, calm down. You're gettin' snarky! :eek:

Sorry. I get that way when I have to keep repeating myself, but I'll keep at this until I get my point across.

Right, first thing: Have you EVER had to FORMAT a MemoryStick/SD card because it still caused a hard reset after a crash?! I've NEVER had a hard reset situation that required me to format an inserted MemoryStick/VFS and I bet you and everyone else haven't either!

Nope, but then the manual tells you to remove all storage cards before you do a hard reset. And I do. And more to the point, you couldn't remove the hard drive if you wanted to.

Now, zeroing out the main RAM is understandable, but clearing out the VFS areas? You know what that'd be like? That'd be like your computer formatting it's hard disk when you hit the reset switch!

Good thing a hard reset is almost never necessary.

Well, I wouldn't have picked that particular quote given that in it's context it didn't fix the biggest bug of all ;)

Squish. Good point. Still, it's a great quote.

The way the quote system on this board makes it painful to reply like this :(

Agreed.

archangel

06-08-2005, 06:15 PM

You don't need NVFS. Fine. Bully for you. But you're not the target market here. This is a business, and they need to sell more Palms. Sticking with volatile RAM isn't going to get that done.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that NVFS is the answer to poor Palm sales? Funny how Palms were selling very well for years on end with standard RAM. All of a sudden this is a must have technology?

The problem is battery technology and that is where a revolution in the portable device industry needs to be made. NVFS or not if my device is going to crap out after 4-5 hours of use why bother with it. These standard users you are talking about are getting turned off by short battery life a lot more than lost data. Someone somewhere has got to find a new technology or improve the current lithium technology to greatly increase the current battery life in portable devices.

Again NVFS is fine, but get the bugs worked out before dumping it on the market or at least be quicker to address the issues users are having. You keep talking about how Palm is not selling devices to me, but the last time I looked I'm the only one in my entire office with a Palm OS PDA so they had better not forget about me or I will get a blackberry or a Pocket PC like everyone else. I will upgrade my Tapwave at some point and Palm is not currently winning me over with their devices or their concern for customer issues.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 06:39 PM

Hoo boy, so many good points, and heroes -on both sides.

Sith reference?

I started the two pages of notes I took on this podcast in big letters:
WIN ME OVER TO NVFS, JEFF

Now that the dust has cleared, i'd have to say you have...
...and you haven't.

Wow, taking notes... Even I'm not that geeky... ;) What do you think you are, a Maximum Geek or something?

Data protected by non-volatile ram: good for sure and an excellent point
redoing my phone would suck and was well illustrated

Thank you. That was the realization that started this whole rant.

Not needing 3rd party workarounds for this also a great point -
(Don't make me add up how much I've spent on workarounds, it only makes your point.)
However, we haven't eliminated the need for them, have we?
Nope, we just need DIFFERENT KINDS NOW! And the need is GREATER from a hard core -just-making-it-work standpoint!

Que? What do you need? The LifeDrive is actually pretty zippy right out of the box. Seriously go try one for yourself if you don't believe me. SharkCache just makes it zippier for the 8-Starbucks-a-day crowd. And as far as my T5 goes, the forthcoming ROM update should make things just ducky.

My big questions are these:

Oy...

Did the use of non-volatile RAM to keep our data safe REALLY AND TRULY REQUIRE all these specific changes that Palm made?

I don't know.

Booting from the HD for instance? Isn't our data already in this non-volatile RAM?

This is a common misconception. There is NO flash memory in the LifeDrive. Just the hard drive and the RAM cache. The hard drive is split into three partitions. One for the "ROM" stuff, one that takes the place of "RAM" on an older Palm and the big honking data partition.

Was the need to cater to newcomers and the sales THEY will generate worth alienating (nuking from orbit, if you will) the very (and non unsubstancial) community and developer base that put 'em where they are today?

Quite possibly, but I really don't think it's an either/or proposition. There's lots of existing Palmheads that either have no strong feelings at all about NVFS, or, like me, actually like it.

Is the trouble with Fitaly and G1 workarounds being caused by truly unfortunate programming stuff, or, in more ways that one, is Palm trying to shuck the above mentioned community and it's liking for running the stuff that they want to as individuals in exchange for locking folks in to what THEY sell 'em.

<insert joke about tin foil hats here>

All in all, I think this is going to be the best thing Palm could have done in the long run. All changes incur growing pains, but I this should pave the way for more reliable devices and more stable software.

Surur

06-08-2005, 06:46 PM

I'm of to bed. I'll just add that given Palm's efforts to move to the smartphone arena, I can understand why they did what they did. Given the problems they have had with software compatibility however, and the sensitivity of new machines to old software, I wonder if they should not have kept two lines. One with normal fast ram, and one just for Treo's with NVFS. The handhelds would have remained compatible with a large software library, while the Treo would have gotten non-volatility plus a defined software environment.

MS smartphones have been non-volatile from the get go. They are actually carrying over many features from the smartphones over to PPC (e.g. non-volatile storage, signed applications, device policies) but they have had 2 years experience with the platform. I don't expect them to have too much trouble. I personally believe wm5 has been delayed at least one year (but that this has been kept very quiet) due to e.g. devices such as the Mpx clearly being designed for WM5, and devices such as the hp 6700 shipping with wm2003se when the hardware suggest wm5 (with softkeys). Of course wm2003se added features and stability, so people did not complain that much. The hope is that MS used the delay to do it right, and make sure the shipped OS is stable.

In short, by POS shipping such sensitive devices that need even more babying they are invalidating people's software investment, and angering their user base. They could have done it better if they had only shipped it for smartphones, and people would have understood why also. It worked for MS for at least a year or two.

Surur

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 06:51 PM

In short, by POS shipping such sensitive devices that need even more babying they are invalidating people's software investment, and angering their user base. They could have done it better if they had only shipped it for smartphones, and people would have understood why also. It worked for MS for at least a year or two.

Seriously, what babying? All I'm saying is don't run buggy software. This should be about as stupid as saying "don't play on the freeway."

Dick Tracy

06-08-2005, 06:59 PM

Favorites on the T5/E2/LD/Treo allows you to run applications directly off the card.

This is not so on the E2. My Edit choices are App or Web Link. In App I can only choose from what is in RAM in the drop down and it will not access a card. Version of Favorites on E2 is 1.0.1. Maybe it's different on the pricier models.

Back to the NVFS debate. I like the idea of not losing everything if I fail to charge. Since I'm a long-time Palm user, charging is a routine like brushing my teeth. What I do not like is the current inability of available applications to reliably backup everything to card so that if I accidentally drop and break my E2, I can buy another and reinstall from card and keep going while repairs, if feasible, can be done.

archangel

06-08-2005, 07:17 PM

NVFS is the biggest innovation since the original Pilot.

Yeah, it couldn't be hi-res color screens, music and video playback, external memory, wi-fi, bluetooth, or any of the other features most users actually use. BTW, my Windows CE devices didn't lose all their data if the device died either, it was called a backup battery or simply a battery smart enough not to fully deplete. That is an innovation from way back in the last millenium.

I'm okay with looking at NVFS as a positive especially as we move forward and current issues are ironed out, but the way you are trying to sell it is down right funny.

Anyway NVFS is fine and it will get better as Palm improves their end and developers catch up, but biggest innovation is one you won't sell many people on. For one thing many people will never even use it on their device since many of us keep our devices charged. Its hardly an innovation if people don't even use it.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 07:21 PM

Anyway NVFS is fine and it will get better as Palm improves their end and developers catch up, but biggest innovation is one you won't sell many people on. For one thing many people will never even use it on their device since many of us keep our devices charged. Its hardly an innovation if people don't even use it.

Again, it's not for us. It's for new users that aren't us. People that never would have bought a PDA otherwise.

archangel

06-08-2005, 07:34 PM

Again, it's not for us. It's for new users that aren't us. People that never would have bought a PDA otherwise.

You honestly think most of these people can't charge a device? I find that very hard to believe in todays world of cell phones, iPods, Game Boys, PSPs ect. I would bet the majority will understand the simple principle of charging the device. If the majority can't handle that they certainly will get little to no use out of a PDA.

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 07:37 PM

cell phones, iPods, Game Boys, PSPs ect.

To the best of my knowledge, none of those devices become useless after losing power. Recharge and you're right back in business. That's the difference.

archangel

06-08-2005, 08:19 PM

To the best of my knowledge, none of those devices become useless after losing power. Recharge and you're right back in business. That's the difference.

They are pretty useless if they die on you though. People are used to charging their devices and keeping them charged. NVFS is only going to be a bonus for a minority of potential Palm OS buyers. Most of the non Palm users you are talking about wouldn't understand the difference between a device with NVFS and one without anyway if they can't handle charging the thing.

strider_mt2k

06-08-2005, 10:09 PM

Ah well, I THOUGHT I was going to bed...

Jeff your points are taken, and thank you for the RAM explanation.

I think what we can ALL agree on is that P1/Palm REALLY REALLY dropped the ball BIG TIME REALLY MUCH on marketing this new era of devices and how this stuff works.

They messed up with not letting the existing PalmOS community know what was coming.

And they SUPER messed up by not sharing the juicy stuff with developers!

If they had handled it so that we all (the Palm OS community) knew what these changes would be, the blow would have been softened, and the COMMUNITY could have helped by being down with this stuff when the new users pour in with questions.
Who knows, there might even be the odd good idea out there! -Or the good odd one!

-Not couching the issue with wording like "properly written programs".

Here's a start:
"Hey! Things are a bit different now, here's how:"

It's an admitted catch 22, when unit-to-unit changes are made within a series and Palm relys on Human's heretofor undeveloped powers of mental telepathy for developers to find out.

As it is now, there is alot of after-the-fact-explaning to do to experienced users which always comes off weird with people, and developers are throwing up their hands in frustration and waiting to see what comes down from Palm and how big a shovel is required.

Let me sum:

NVFS is WAY cooler with me now than before the 'cast and this great discussion thread, although the implementation is something we can alll agree needs a bit of tweaking.
Palm is one big fat dope when it comes to marketing and and dealing with developers and the community.

Man that was way more work than I wanted to do, good night. :o

Jeff Kirvin

06-08-2005, 10:24 PM

Agreed. Palm has got great devices, lousy marketing, abyssmal developer relations. I think I have a topic for next week's podcast...

Alan G

06-08-2005, 10:29 PM

They messed up with not letting the existing PalmOS community know what was coming.

And they SUPER messed up by not sharing the juicy stuff with developers!

Jeff and I talked a little about this online reciently. palmOne consistantly doesn't seem to get it that they have a large pool of people in the Palm OS community who can be influencial. Look at the Palm OS User Council (http://www.usercouncil.org/mission.html). Look at the leaders of Palm OS user groups. palmOne need to reach out to their customer base in a more meaningful way. I think that the Treo Roadshow is a great format for business/corporate customers. why not have a handful of local Palm OS product evangelists on hand to help carry the message forward.

I guess my bottom line point is that there is likely a lot of information being sent into palmOne both from the developer community and the user community. palmOne needs to do a better job of communicating the correct information to key people at the right time. palmOne has great hardware and software solutions. That's why I do all of the stuff that I do. palmOne need to improve their communications with the community.

[rant mode: Off]

Alan G

mikvo

06-08-2005, 10:36 PM

Okay, this thread finally made me actually register with 1src just so I could add my two cents. As a long-time "geek", and 4-year Palm user, I actually have an opinion. First, I will say I think NVFS is a good thing. And the pattern that I'm seeing here isn't that actual NVFS is bad, but that some of the changes around it are bad.

Okay, let's talk hard resets. I agree that they should be extremely rare. I also agree that they do happen. I currently use a T|T, but am getting very close to breaking down and buying a T5 due to aging of my device. Last week, for example, I picked my T up off the cradle and it did a hard reset. I was really annoyed. I happen to do regular hotsyncs and daily (at least) backups, so it was a matter of a couple of minutes and I was back where I left off. That is extremely rare, but it is still a problem solved by NVFS.

The other point: whiping ALLLL internal memory on a hard reset. I don't like it. I think I understand some of the issues and reasons, but yes, it can be annoying. How about an optional whipe? When I re-install my OS on my PC, for example, I can use an existing partition without erasing it. A hard reset on a Palm ought to allow that option. You could even have a preference that requires that password (if set) do do it, to preserve security. But it seems like the problem, again, isn't NVFS. Does it matter whether it was volatile or non-volatile RAM? If Palm put 4GB of "real" RAM in the LifeDrive, or 256MB of "real" RAM in the T5, we would be complaining just as much. NVFS, again, is not the issue.

Backups. Should we still do them? Of course. Are there difficulties with that in the new NVFS devices? Yes. Are they because of NVFS? I don't think so. We have already beat Palm to death about failure to communicate with their developers. That's the real problem. They made underlying changes to the system IN ADDITION TO the NVFS. That's the problem. It's not NVFS. I do, however, believe that these changes were necessary to support the larger storage capacities we are beginning to see. But let's not blame NVFS for the side issues that aren't really the fault of NVFS.

I think NVFS is a good thing. There are some bumps in the road, and there will be more. I, too, am anxious to see another ROM update for the T5, as it's the next device I'm considering (not without reservations, however). I alos look forward to some of these other third party applications we are used to catching up with Palm's changes so that things are even smoother.

And I will make one point where I have to disagree with you, Jeff. And ask me in five years if I'm right (time will tell). This isn't the one, last thing that Palm has to do to "get it right." I think down the road we will look back at some of the other changes and say the same thing. The problem is our environment and our experience. We can't help but look at things from the here-and-now and think, hey, it's about time they did that! In five years we'll have done it again. When Palm release the AfterlifeDrive, we'll think, he, now they finally did it right. When the first Pilot came out, what other personal electronics did we have that didn't lose their memory when the power was gone? I'm guessing it wasn't really anything that had writeable memory at all. Our experience with other devices has created that perception for us, and made us think that Palm devices missed it. I don't believe it was even feasible then. Can we blame them for not "getting it right" when the technology was not available, or at least cost-effective? I think they got it right.

Now I'm going to bed :)

GadgetGuru

06-08-2005, 11:24 PM

"That submarine would fly a lot better if it had wings and a jet engine..."

One more thing, this analogy doesn't fly (sorry, couldn't resist the pun). Palm's NVFS implementation is not doing something as radical. It's like putting in a way more fuel efficient engine into that submarine, but that submarine will be 20% slower than before.

As most stated, NVFS current implementation is less than optimal. Nobody's saying NVFS a bad thing, just the way Palm make it work. Some device may require NVFS, some don't. PalmOne should have realized this instead of going all NVFS.

smoothjordan

06-08-2005, 11:57 PM

Honestly, NVFS isn't the most innovative move since the original pilot, but it's a good step. The battery life on my T|5 is incredible compared to that of my T|3. The hard drive of the Life Drive is another step foward, but it's not big enough to make me leave my T|5. Check out the Tungsten forums, all except for 1 person told me to choose the T|5 over the Life Drive. After reading everything "bad" about the T|5, i think they are wrong, it's a superb device, the best i've owned to date, even better then the legendary T|3. Want to know why I like it better than all the rest? NVFS! Thanks Mr. Kirven, your podcasts are burnt onto a CD and I listen to them on the way to work and back, makes for interesting thought.
Jordan

Cyker

06-09-2005, 01:41 AM

But again, if the applications had been written properly and according to Palm OS programming guidelines in the first place, there wouldn't be any problem at all, would there?

What, so you think almost *every* major coder *deliberately* wrote their code in such a way to break NVFS?
Even Palm's own Graffiti library didn't work on NVFS until it had workarounds hacked into it - You think they weren't following their own guidelines too?

smoothjordan

06-09-2005, 02:00 AM

What, so you think almost *every* major coder *deliberately* wrote their code in such a way to break NVFS?
He never said that. He said most applications weren't written for NVFS. Had they properly been written for NVFS, it would work.

Even Palm's own Graffiti library didn't work on NVFS until it had workarounds hacked into it - You think they weren't following their own guidelines too?

Was Palm's Graffiti library written for NVFS? No, so this isn't even a valid argument. If it had been written for NVFS, it would have worked. Learn to read

Cyker

06-09-2005, 02:40 AM

Wow, bite my head off man :eek: Yeesh... :p

Anyway, you would appear to be the one who needs to learn to read: He said, essentially, that all those Palm programs that don't work on NVFS are NOT WRITTEN PROPERLY.

Now, of course the apps are gonna work on NVFS if they've been hacked *specifically* to work on NVFS - Duh! as Jeff would say.

My point was that NVFS broke a whole load of things and FORCED almost every major app, which had been working perfectly on all PalmOS5 machines previously, to be re-tooled to work around the changes.
This retooling happened, (IMHO) not because the programs were badly written or espescially buggy, but because of the things NVFS changed. I really believe that if they had put a bit more effort into it's design and implementation, NVFS as a whole would have been much better.

smoothjordan

06-09-2005, 02:44 AM

Anyway, you would appear to be the one who needs to learn to read: He said, essentially, that all those Palm programs that don't work on NVFS are NOT WRITTEN PROPERLY.
Read what I said, "If it had been written properly..." Wow, High School paid off.

Now, of course the apps are gonna work on NVFS if they've been hacked *specifically* to work on NVFS - Duh! as Jeff would say.
DUH! Valid point, which has been made over and over.

My point was that NVFS broke a whole load of things and FORCED almost every major app, which had been working perfectly on all PalmOS5 machines previously, to be re-tooled to work around the changes.
This retooling happened, (IMHO) not because the programs were badly written or espescially buggy, but because of the things NVFS changed. I really believe that if they had put a bit more effort into it's design and implementation, NVFS as a whole would have been much better.

I agree with you fully, i'm sorry if i'm coming off as an @$$, had a bad day at work.
Jordan

Surur

06-09-2005, 04:42 AM

My point was that NVFS broke a whole load of things and FORCED almost every major app, which had been working perfectly on all PalmOS5 machines previously, to be re-tooled to work around the changes.
This retooling happened, (IMHO) not because the programs were badly written or espescially buggy, but because of the things NVFS changed. I really believe that if they had put a bit more effort into it's design and implementation, NVFS as a whole would have been much better.

I think this is everybody's view. Due to the damaging effect of NVFS on the existing software library (it doesn't matter who's to blame) upgrading to a NVFS device is a downgrade for many users. The fact is that even built-in software on the LD has problems due to this. Can anyone honestly say that Palm would not have been better of reserving NVFS for the Treo and saving normal RAM for their PDA's?

Remember that the increase in newbie users who would have benefited most from non-volatile PDA's have not happened, and many regular palm users have held of from upgrading because of the reported problems. No matter the ideology, what would have been the better pragmatic business choice?

Surur

strider_mt2k

06-09-2005, 08:10 AM

Palm not being a big fat dope about it.

Jeff Kirvin

06-09-2005, 09:31 AM

Some device may require NVFS, some don't. PalmOne should have realized this instead of going all NVFS.

Imagine the confusion in the marketplace that would cause. Someone buys a Treo, gets used to NVFS, then later upgrades to a separate cell phone and a Tungsten. "What do you mean I have to keep it charged or I lose everything?"

Jeff Kirvin

06-09-2005, 09:33 AM

This retooling happened, (IMHO) not because the programs were badly written or espescially buggy, but because of the things NVFS changed. I really believe that if they had put a bit more effort into it's design and implementation, NVFS as a whole would have been much better.

I think we can all agree that the NVFS would have gone more smoothly if PalmOne had done a much better job of communicating the changes to the developer community. This has always been Palm's biggest weakness, they act like they're in their own little bubble and don't let the community help them.

Jeff Kirvin

06-09-2005, 09:37 AM

What, so you think almost *every* major coder *deliberately* wrote their code in such a way to break NVFS?
Even Palm's own Graffiti library didn't work on NVFS until it had workarounds hacked into it - You think they weren't following their own guidelines too?

As Smoothjordan pointed out, I don't think this problem was related to NVFS, but to other system changes. The patched G1 libs that work on the NVFS T5 don't work on the E2.

And again, Palm should document those changes and communicate them to developers. It's absolutely intolerable that developers like Pimlico and Textware have to reverse engineer what Palm changed just to make their applications work. But this is a different issue than NVFS, one that I'll tackle in next week's 'cast.

applejosh

06-09-2005, 09:57 AM

The communication between PalmOne and the developers sucks, to put it bluntly. As Jeff said, it's a sad state of affairs when developers such as CESD have to reverse engineer stuff just to get their apps to work with any kind of speed. PalmOne should communicate the changes they make to the developers, who IMHO, drive sales of devices. If it wasn't for DateBk, ShadowPlan, etc. I probably would have jumped ship completely a while ago (and not bought my last two PalmOne devices). The wide array of apps are what drive the geeks (of which I am one) to the devices. If the apps fail, the geek nation stops buying new devices, and probably take their recommendations to another platform. (What non-geek doesn't seek out at least an opinion from a computer geek regarding technology purchases?) It's the circle of life (or something like that).

Cyker

06-09-2005, 11:44 AM

As Smoothjordan pointed out, I don't think this problem was related to NVFS, but to other system changes. The patched G1 libs that work on the NVFS T5 don't work on the E2.

And again, Palm should document those changes and communicate them to developers. It's absolutely intolerable that developers like Pimlico and Textware have to reverse engineer what Palm changed just to make their applications work. But this is a different issue than NVFS, one that I'll tackle in next week's 'cast.

Mmm, you got a point there - It's hard to argue the point when I don't know what other changes they made in OS 5.4. If NVFS was the only thing they added, then the point stands, otherwise it gets all muddy and icky :(
The G1 library thing is a thorny thing - There was a rumor that they altered the way the input module works specifically to stop people doing that trick on the E2, which is why it still works on the T|5 and T650, but somehow I *doubt* Palm would go to that much effort (Their track record for tardiness on little tweaks like that is only beaten by the sloth (sloath?) that is Sony...).

The most irritating thing is that I don't even know why I'm even arguing about this when it has almost zero to do with me - It's like I suddenly got whiney git syndrome! (A common affliction in jolly old England :p)

strider_mt2k

06-09-2005, 07:07 PM

Hmmm, at the time of this posting "YES" is edging out "NO" 13-12 with three caught between worlds in a hellish nightmare of indifference.

There ya go Jeff! :)
I voted YES, BTW.
Of I had the cash I would consider a T5, but I'm not ditching my TH55 to do it, so the T6 might be more in line...if there is one of course.

Sjweise

06-10-2005, 12:02 AM

NVFS is a great idea! It increases battery life. It cuts down on accidental data loss.However, they should have ensured that it would fit neatly into their software history. If it had been implemented just as VFS has it would work for most apps and no one would be *****ing. They screwed up implementation, not the idea (as is the case over and over again with companies)

strider_mt2k

06-10-2005, 05:17 AM

I'm heading over to Office Depot this weekend to do some comparisons.

strider_mt2k

06-10-2005, 06:41 AM

Skin UI is really cool, BTW.
I installed it last night.

mondellm

06-10-2005, 11:35 AM

Jeff,

You are sooo right about the NVFS issue. I am at heart a geek but I live in the real world. While I love the Palm OS and find the devices made for it to be very useful, the last PDA I bought before my new Treo 650 was a IIIxe. The IIIxe made sense at the time due to the "amazing" jump up to 8mb of ram but the fact that I kept losing data and one of my most useful programs (Pocket Real Estate) would break after every complete power down had me wondering if it was really worth the pain of using it. PRE literally had to uninstalled and reinstalled every time due to a problem with the database sync.

I wanted to update to a newer Palm device but just couldn't justify it to myself. Then I found out about this awsome convergence device that not only could work as my phone, email, mp3 player, and even camera (in a pinch) but that the memory loss issue was solved. I had to get it.

In short I am living proof of your thesis. By making this device more reliable, someone who probably wouldn't have bought another PDA was turned into a repeat customer.

Jeff Kirvin

06-10-2005, 11:45 AM

Cool, and welcome to 1SRC!

BClie2k

06-11-2005, 12:35 AM

Jeff,

I'm with you on the NVFS argument. I currently have two PDAs. A treo 650 and a NX70v. I like my Treo a lot when I'm on the road and away from my PC. However, at home I sometimes like to watch video clips and play games on my Clie, but sometimes I forget to charge it because my primary PDA is my Treo. I get really annoyed when my clie is dead and I have to restore all my programs from my backup. No matter how many times I do backups, there is always a time when I forget to backup some new settings or game progress.
On the other hand, I do not like the lag and slowliness of my Treo when sometimes I need something on the spot. I would probably benefit from NVFS more if I would not pay too much attention to my Treo or if I really didn't care about charging.

About SKINUI on my Treo 650. It is really cool, but lack of full 5-way navigation support especially for the buttons and the long response time make this application not too cool to keep it. I hope the next update looks better.

Thanks,

Al

Tam Hanna

06-11-2005, 08:39 AM

See TamsPalm for my oppinion why a Palm is not a cellphone when a battery is concerned:
http://tamspalm.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-nvfs-is-not-neccessity.html
Ever heard about data retention capacity?

Cyker

06-11-2005, 09:56 AM

Well PDA's are never going to make great phones - The tradeoffs are just too much.

You either end up with a decent phone which is a shite PDA, or a decent PDA which is a shite phone.

The tradeoffs for screen size alone shoot the idea down:
I mean, I look at my TH55 and just can't see me using something that big as a phone.
Conversely, I look at my (dying) T68i and just can't see myself using NetFront or even looking up an address on such a tiny screen.

If you don't mind carrying around a chunky phone, then the convergence factor is workable, but speaking for myself, holding a brick up to my ear just wouldn't work for me...

archangel

06-11-2005, 10:35 AM

Yeah all in one devices have zero interest to me. I can get by with just my Symbian Series 60 N-Gage in many situations, but there is no phone out there including the Treo that could ever replace my PDA. I'd rather carry both than have one crippled device with me.

BClie2k

06-11-2005, 11:51 AM

I just wanted to say that last night, I was so tired that I left my Treo under the couch and fell as sleep. Then, I woke up to go to bed and half as sleep I left my Treo on my desk and went to bed. This morning my Treo had 0% of batter left and would not turn on. So I put it in the cradle in now it is charging.
Thanks to NVFS I was able to recover all my data instantly.

Al

Cyker

06-11-2005, 04:18 PM

Slight tangent; How comes your Treo didn't power-off automatically?
I've done that a few times with my TH55 but it auto power-offs after 3 minutes on inactivity...

DennisOS2

06-11-2005, 05:08 PM

Ok, Jeff is not liking my language, but what else does "Adapt or perish" mean than "Be quite and get with the system. Stop complaining" ?

Either way, despite the desirability of a non-volatile system, Palm really messed up in implementation. If they did it for the sake of new users they have failed. They have not grown their market, and they have shipped 23% less handheld devices than last year, despite the non-volatile T5. Was this worth gaining a reputation for instability and bugginess?

http://surur.sytes.net/idc2005.png

SururYou can't draw your conclusion from those numbers. Could be many factors ....... but certainly not the file system change. The broad audience is unaware of such technical issues ........... would, frankly, find this thread a waste of their time. Nice try.

smoothjordan

06-11-2005, 11:04 PM

Slight tangent; How comes your Treo didn't power-off automatically?
I've done that a few times with my TH55 but it auto power-offs after 3 minutes on inactivity...

The phone part remains on...

quasar

06-11-2005, 11:39 PM

Jeff, I agree with what you way in the podcast. I've played with the T5 and E2, and the lag is marginal. Also, when people write to the OS and not make workarounds in programs for specific devices, the app will be protable and stable for whatever device used. While I'm not so sure that NVFS is the best thing for the Palm since the Pilot, I do think it's the best thing for Palm's efforts to get the Palm mainstream since the pilot.

Cyker

06-12-2005, 03:46 AM

The phone part remains on...
Wait... so the Treo phone can't even last one night on standby mode?! :eek:

Edit: Woo! I love my TH!! :D After making that post, I just realised I left my TH on overnight (I was listening to TWiT oggs in TCPMP), which had stopped the auto-off! :eek:
The reason I didn't realise at first is that it's still clocking in at 68% battery left!! :D
Kudos to those Sony engineers :D

Fine_lai

06-12-2005, 04:55 AM

Jeff,

I'm with you on the NVFS argument. I currently have two PDAs. A treo 650 and a NX70v.

Thank God palmone decided and realize to design NVFS.

clie_wannabe

06-12-2005, 08:47 AM

A second-or-two here and there is not bad, but if you come from a $199 Tungsten E that launches up in under a second. Would that be a step forward or backward? And you are paying $300 bucks more, you would think that three times the processor speed would speed things up not down...now try to explain that its the hard drive to a non-geek...

Pocket PC 2000 was slow, but each new version Pocket PC 2002, and especially Windows Mobile 2003 increases the speed dramatically. My H3600 is slow but my h1930 with 1/3 the proicessor speed feels snappier. Now that's tangible improvement. PalmOne is moving backwards in the user-experience thing.

and that is why i finally dumped my VZ90, and moved to a Dell Axim x50v...

i would be the first to admit that in the early days of mobile computing, Palm was ahead because of its simplicity, and stability... it just gets the job done.

unfortunately, Windows Mobile (though far from perfect - MUCH MUCH far from perfect) has already catched-up - better stability, better functionality, better expandability/scalability, and moreso, softwares (now comparable to the Palm)...

and what does Palm have? WiFi and BT? this has been a default for most handhelds now... a built-in HDD? c'mmon, the Sharp Zaurus had that much much longer... a HDD that erases itself after a hard reset (ooopppsss... that was PocketPC years ago - until they recently came up with Persistent Storage)... slow boot-ups? those were Windows 95/98 and Windows 2000...

as you've said, PalmOne thinks it has finally figured it out - however, just like the T5 fiasco, PalmOne assumes that it has taken FOUR steps forward, only to be seen as taken FIVE steps backward by everyone else...

clie_wannabe

06-12-2005, 08:52 AM

clie_wannabe

06-12-2005, 08:58 AM

archangel

06-12-2005, 11:15 AM

as you've said, PalmOne thinks it has finally figured it out - however, just like the T5 fiasco, PalmOne assumes that it has taken FOUR steps forward, only to be seen as taken FIVE steps backward by everyone else...

This is unfortunately too true. I'm not a fan of the Pocket PC and don't see myself getting one, but I can admit that there has been major and steady improvement in that line since 2000. Things have almost reversed from the early days when Palms were the easier to use and more affordable handheld.

Stability is pretty much even now unless you have a NVFS Palm that crashes on all the programs "poorly written" ;) and value is way in the Pocket PC camp. Getting Bluetooth and Wi-Fi has been standard for sometime with the mid to high end PPCs and Palm has just recently figured that one out.

It was a sad day when Sony left the market as they were really the only one pushing the PalmOS technology. Now that Tapwave is out as well you can expect nothing from the PalmOS world that will compete with the strengths of the PPC line.

I only wonder what Sony could have done with a Lifedrive type device.

strider_mt2k

06-12-2005, 11:29 AM

Mmm, TH66.

Cyker

06-12-2005, 11:47 AM

strider: We can only dream... ;)

clie wan: I agree about the PPCs; In terms of checkbox features they have been well ahead of Palm for years. The biggest strength Palm has *is* it's simplicity and stability and this has been the right direction as shown by their early success over PPC.
Unfortunately they have lost sight of this in their desire to expand market share (Which they once held almost all of!), and I must say that as Palms have gotten more complex internally (The switch to OS5, NVFS) they have taken a hit to their stability.
I really think they need to re-evaluate their direction - At the moment they are drifting in the PPC direction; Adding features in a way which sacrifices stability and simplicity. If they try and take on PPC's head-on, they will get buried.
I think it was JeffK that said Usability is a hard thing for marketters to sell, and he's right. It was the word of mouth that really let Palm take off, while PPC's were instead plastering adverts everywhere, but this has lessened in recent years, and I'd say word of mouth promotion is only about the same as PPC's these days.

As for the more underlying features like NVFS, I reckon that most mainstream consumers, the ones Palm are currently targetting over people like us, really don't know or care about the differences. They could apply some marketting spin to use it as a selling point, but really it just ends up being another check box on the packaging.

GadgetGuru

06-12-2005, 12:32 PM

I am switching sides... I now have a Lifedrive and upon using it I would say that NVFS is now more mature than it was when T5 and Treo 650 was launched. Sure, there are lag but almost a non-issue since it's just a second-or-two more than before. Sure some gargatuan applications take 10-12 seconds to load, so would those apps on any platform. The Lag on the Lifedrive is probably caused not by NVFS but by the harddrive, so blaming it on NVFS is plain wrong...on a T5 or Treo 650 those same apps will launch faster than on a Lifedrive, so it's not NVFS but the Harddrive.

Some old apps will not run on NVFS - the percentage is very small, most of what I installed on my Lifedrive, just works.

Other stuffs like hard reset cleans hard drive is a Lifedrive issue, it has nothing to do with NVFS.

Many of the misconceptions about NVFS is that they are based on a buggy first implementation (T5), and not having used a device with one. I am among them but having used my Lifedrive, I say except for the long resets, the rest are under the hood, newbies and non-power-users won't even tell the difference. Maybe some PalmOne and Palmsource could do some internal tweaking to lessen the long reset time.

Resets do happen on NVFS and non-NVFS units, but on non-NVFS units it's fast and painless, probably why nobody bothered. But on NVFS, it takes a minute to reboot, so even if the frequency is similar, it feel much more.

Some other problem like not enough RAM to run application is because PalmOne put too little in there...not NVFS issue. So in the end, its up to PalmOne to create fancy algorhithms to fix those...

So is NVFS the best thing since sliced bread...NO. It's a small step forward. Should PalmOne go back to volatile memory? No, but they should increase the cache... PPCs will run slow if the memory is small, Windows XP will run slow if you tried running it on a 128MB RAM machine...in the end, it's a memory size issue...not NVFS.

Surur

06-12-2005, 12:43 PM

You can't draw your conclusion from those numbers. Could be many factors ....... but certainly not the file system change. The broad audience is unaware of such technical issues ........... would, frankly, find this thread a waste of their time. Nice try.

Dennis, you are misunderstanding. I am pointing out recent changes in PalmOne has not increased their market share. Can you deny this?

At the same time recent Palms have acquired a reputation for instability. I lay this at the door of NVFS. Maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe you know of another major recent change to blame for this?

In conclusion, if I was a shareholder of Palm I would want them to concentrate their resources on stuff that would increase market share. NVFS has not done this. It may have had the effect of decreasing Palm's handheld market share, as many people cite the recent bugginess of the new Palm's as the reason for not upgrading.

If the above is correct NVFS has been a step backward for Palm, not in principle, but due to the implementation. Also I think you underestimate the technical abilities of the "broad audience" of PDA owners. They will know at least one geek who may even advise them against upgrading e.g.

It is a good time to get a T5 now? (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27385&sid=265b45e35f450ff4f0c8d1133e5c93ad)

So finally, if not NVFS, what do you blame Palm's shrinking handheld market share on?

Surur

GadgetGuru

06-12-2005, 01:20 PM

I think lack of tangible innovation is what caused the decreasing market share. Sure, NVFS is neat, but few people want it or know it's advantages. Things like wifi and GPS or VGA are tangible, people can see or feel the difference even non-techies.

Lack of new devices. Treo 650 arrived late, Tungsten E2 and T5 feels like incremental upgrades that add too little to justify upgrading nor attact new users.

Price. The Tungsten E is palmOne best selling handheld because it's good value. But on high-end devices, Dell is taking market share because of cutthroat value pricing...something that Dell could do, because even if their PDA division is not making money or only a little, its huge PC division could easily tide it over.

No Cobalt. People want something new, not 0.1 OS upgrades. PPC people seldom upgrade too but when Microsoft pumped out Windows Mobile 2002, 2003, 2003 SE and soon WM5. Each created an upgrade cycle. In that time, PalmOne used OS5 or variant and nothing else...so many people are still using Tungsten T when you probably will be hard put to find someone using an ipaq 3955.

dmitrygr

06-12-2005, 01:35 PM

jeff, you made a mistake talking about hard resets. No problem can be caused by data in internal drive just as data on the card cannot crash palm. it by default does not even read it. some with T5.

Jeff Kirvin

06-12-2005, 01:41 PM

Stability is pretty much even now unless you have a NVFS Palm that crashes on all the programs "poorly written" ;) ...

Why do you people insist on defending buggy programming? Do you honestly think the OS should run whatever hacked together code you throw at it?

I hate to break this to you, but my T5 almost never crashes. Why? Because I'm running software that I know to be well-written and stable. Don't blame the OS, blame the program.

At least in this case. Sometimes you do blame the OS. But not about this.

Jeff Kirvin

06-12-2005, 01:46 PM

jeff, you made a mistake talking about hard resets. No problem can be caused by data in internal drive just as data on the card cannot crash palm. it by default does not even read it. some with T5.

I know you know a helluva lot more about Palm internals than I do, but are you sure about this, Dmitry? The favorites app on the newer devices can list apps and even data files from the card. Wouldn't it have to scan the card to see these on boot and make sure they were there?

Surur

06-12-2005, 01:50 PM

jeff, you made a mistake talking about hard resets. No problem can be caused by data in internal drive just as data on the card cannot crash palm. it by default does not even read it. some with T5.

You have confirmed what I intuitively believed. I did not respond to Jeff's correction as I could not be sure Palm hasn't done something screwy again.

Jeff, BTW, regarding defending buggy software. How do you know what software is buggy? Even software that ships with the life-drive appears to be buggy. It appears to be simply through a process of elimination. The definition of buggy appears to be mainly what crashes your device, not what has been buggy and unstable on all platforms. Ever consider it could be the device which is the problem?

Surur

Jeff Kirvin

06-12-2005, 01:54 PM

Considering that VersaMail and Blazer actually do cause crashes on multiple devices, it's more likely that they're buggy and not the devices themselves. Occam's razor, dude.

FWIW, I use SnapperMail on my T5, and it's rock solid.

dmitrygr

06-12-2005, 02:09 PM

I know you know a helluva lot more about Palm internals than I do, but are you sure about this, Dmitry? The favorites app on the newer devices can list apps and even data files from the card. Wouldn't it have to scan the card to see these on boot and make sure they were there?

yes diplaying is one running is another. they do not run

Jeff Kirvin

06-12-2005, 02:28 PM

Surur

06-12-2005, 02:36 PM

I know they don't run, but sometimes just the presence of a prc file can lead to a hard reset. That's what happened with my version of the FAT32 driver (warning to all the T5 folks, we seem to be the only people that can't use FAT32...).

A PRC on your SD card, internal storage or main memory. I would hope I could put arbitrary files on my SD or internal storage and not worry about it sending my device into an unbreakable reset loop.

Surur

Cyker

06-12-2005, 03:48 PM

I know they don't run, but sometimes just the presence of a prc file can lead to a hard reset. That's what happened with my version of the FAT32 driver (warning to all the T5 folks, we seem to be the only people that can't use FAT32...).

If you mean the presence of the FAT32 driver, then it would have been executed by PalmOS automatically as it's marked as a driver.
No well-written* OS should barf just from 'touching' a file, 'tho exceptions allowed for files with buggy/deliberately fouled icon/resource/metadata (Although TBH a well-written OS would have bounds-checking to protect itself from that kind of thing anyway.)

I must admit I was surprised when you said it [FAT32] didn't work on yours, that's a bummer. :(
I kinda thought it would work better on the T|5 than anything else!! :(
Still, maybe this will encourage someone will write a more legal one... (Tapwave? Mobile-Stream? SoftTick? I can hear you breathing out there!! :p :D)

*<Rant> NB: Well-written includes every OS *except* Windows; It's the only OS I have ever used that can catch viruses and crash just from browsing a directory of files. It's all the stupid Web/ActiveX crap they embed in Explorer... It actually TRIES to execute any web-scripty file in a directory, *on access*!!!

archangel

06-12-2005, 06:24 PM

Why do you people insist on defending buggy programming? Do you honestly think the OS should run whatever hacked together code you throw at it?

I wasn't defending buggy programming and I was kidding thats what this ;) is for. I agree there are several commercial programs out there that are downright awful. However, Palm is partly at fault for not communicating with developers. I don't think its fair to lay all the blame on developers. It can be difficult to write programs that work correctly with all the different variations of the Palm OS. It is not by any means as uniformed as the PPC realm is. As a Tapwave and Clie owner I know how important it is to wait for developers to write a special version of an app for your device. (Thank god Yahm finally got a Tapwave version BTW)

Part of the problem IMO is Palmone sticking with Garnet way too long. Of course Palmsource shares in that blame since they basically killed Cobalt before it ever made it to market with Palm for Linux which isn't fully ready yet either.

I'm looking forward to Palm for Linux finally getting released and many of these technical advances being much easier for Palmone to implement. Of course that will mean OS5 software will again have to be rewritten and early models will have bugs, but it is easier to rationalize with on new OS instead of a .1 change.

A Palm for Linux version of next Lifedrive or Tungsten could be the thing to keep me away from the dark side that is the PPC. My Zod is not going to last forever.

Jeff Kirvin

06-12-2005, 06:45 PM

However, Palm is partly at fault for not communicating with developers. I don't think its fair to lay all the blame on developers.

PalmOne's turn is coming. Check WritingOnYourPalm.net tomorrow and be sure to listen to this Wednesday's 1SRC Podcast.

clie_wannabe

06-12-2005, 06:45 PM

adding some humor into the hot debate we are having:

how 'bout an option to poll of ----> "step backward for Palm?"

;)

PS: a "step backward" is NOT the same as the option "no" <--- for those that are TOO literal about things

clie_wannabe

06-12-2005, 06:46 PM

PalmOne's turn is coming. Check WritingOnYourPalm.net tomorrow and be sure to listen to this Wednesday's 1SRC Podcast.

got it!!!

:)

gregor

06-12-2005, 09:06 PM

Is there a battery life issue when you haven't crashed the device without knowing it?

My old Palm IIIxe (recently retired for a T5) was supposed to be able to keep its memory alive for about 2 **months**, after there was insufficient power to power the screen.(Didn't try it, read it somewhere, corrections welcome). So when you replaced the batteries, you could take up from where you left off.

Do the later palms not do this? How long does it take to lose the memory in a newer device?

I do agree with Jeff that this is a necessary feature for wider adoption-- it follows the principle of least surprise. Which is also why you don't want to wait 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 seconds to enter an appointment or record a voice message. Pretty much instant response isn't important for the time it saves (agreed, no one is that busy), but so that you don't notice that you're using the device. The device shouldn't get in the way. A 2 second break may psychologically feel much longer than it is in the context of the task at hand.

I think that different applications can stand slow response time more than others. If I'm consciously using the device -- looking something up in thinkdb say, I know what I'm doing, everything is very deliberate, and the wait is part of that. Similarly, I don't care if it takes a few seconds for music to start. But if I'm making an appointment, I don't want to be thinking "I'm now using my device" -- I just want to make the appointment, or record the thought, or take a quick note-- cause I'm doing something else at the time.

Now it sounds like the shark cache thing will allow that to happen -- but I think it should have been built in, because most users won't download it, and their experience may suffer.

Cyker

06-13-2005, 02:02 AM

Well, in older palms that used actual standard replaceable power cells, they also had either a low-drain capacitor or, more usually, a lithium coin cell which acted as a backup power supply.

When the first rechargeable Palms came out, that got thrown out because it was assumed the internal (Non-replaceable) battery pack would not be removed and therefore the unit would have power all the time.

ptmin

06-13-2005, 02:45 PM

PalmOne's turn is coming. Check WritingOnYourPalm.net tomorrow and be sure to listen to this Wednesday's 1SRC Podcast.

Hi Jeff
i have been following this thread and read from WOYP.net and this issues about fitally not working on the LD and palm changes of the OS and developers not being informed, well this is a question that bothers me, many of us have install TCPMP Player which i believe was well writthen hence the recommendations from many sites, this software works on many devices ( do not know how much though) and there has been no problems mentioned as i know and it works on the liveDrive as well, so what ever P1 has done to the os the developer of tcpmp was able to write a sofetware which is compatible and stable so fitaly and others could write thier soft without having to reverse engineering the thier soft, can you touch on that on your comments, felt you were a bit disturbed on that on your post on WOYP and this has bothered me as well. please comment on this a bit
PTMIN
thanks

Jeff Kirvin

06-13-2005, 02:53 PM

Hi Jeff
i have been following this thread and read from WOYP.net and this issues about fitally not working on the LD and palm changes of the OS and developers not being informed, well this is a question that bothers me, many of us have install TCPMP Player which i believe was well writthen hence the recommendations from many sites, this software works on many devices ( do not know how much though) and there has been no problems mentioned as i know and it works on the liveDrive as well, so what ever P1 has done to the os the developer of tcpmp was able to write a sofetware which is compatible and stable so fitaly and others could write thier soft without having to reverse engineering the thier soft, can you touch on that on your comments, felt you were a bit disturbed on that on your post on WOYP and this has bothered me as well. please comment on this a bit
PTMIN
thanks

TCPMP doesn't really use Palm OS for very much. Once you run it, it takes over the screen and the processor. Apps like Fitaly have to tie into existing OS structures which are rarely documented.

So in answer to your question, I guess it depends on the kind of app. Media and games are relatively unaffected, but anything that has the look and feel of Palm OS could be tricky.

(This may be why some developers rewrite the entire GUI for their app, ie Mobi-Systems.)

ptmin

06-13-2005, 03:47 PM

Hi Jeff
thanks for bringing the light can't wait for cast 28 on wednesday its been very informative and helpful to understanding the devce i use everyday keep up high on it
Ptmin

Surur

06-14-2005, 06:01 AM

Further confirmation that NVFS is a source of instability

by CESD, the DateBk5 publisher.

Because the PalmOne DataManager patch is so flaky, there is quite a benefit to running deletePIMs.prc. This app automatically deletes the PalmSource Datebook and Memos databases on each soft reset (the time at which the DM patch creates those mirror databases, even though they are not needed). It seems that if the DM patch does not find those databases present, then it won't bother trying to do any mirroring (the activity which causes the instability). So it definitely has some benefit.

Mirroring is the process of copying the content of real ram to non-volatile RAM (or HDD), the basis of NVFS. No NVFS, no mirroring.

And talk about defending buggy code! It looks like P1 gets their code written on the cheap and in a rush, without doing the due diligence to document or even check for error conditions, something which even amateur programmers are very aware of.

The underlying problem here is that the software base behind PalmOne's code is not nearly as robust as PalmSource. You only have to look at the documentation in PalmOne's code to realize what the problem is (namely none - there is virtually no documentnation at all in the code I've seen - I would never hire any programmer who wrote code like that as it becomes impossible to support or thoroughly debug).

Also, they fail to test for error conditions - time and time again, I see their code just ASSUMING that everything is going to work - they look up a database which "ought" to be present, or get a memory handle from a database and assume it is valid, but never check to see whether it really was. And if it wasn't, their code just hangs, or crashes, possibly much later, with a meaningless error message. This is why so many people are experiencing stability issues with these new devices - they need to get someone in charge of their programming team with a strong discipline for writing robust code. In the real world, all kinds of things that "ought" to work, don't, and only code that caters to that is going to survive.

(not to imply my code is perfect in those regards! It very definitely is not. But I do document everything profusely, and have a rule about checking for every possible error condition).
Jeff's own website (http://www.solomedia.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1376&sid=d444030df98be9e159ec878aee6442f6)

So again, Jeff, who's to blame for the instability of recent P1 devices? 3rd party programmers or P1 themselves? Oh yes I forget, you were saying Palm devices were always as unstable as they are now. Or maybe thats just the apologist perspective?

Surur

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 07:47 AM

Mirroring is the process of copying the content of real ram to non-volatile RAM (or HDD), the basis of NVFS. No NVFS, no mirroring.

Ah, Surur. The problem with being a Pocket PC troll is that you don't really know what you're talking about with regards to Palm OS. The mirroring to which CESD refers is the old PIM databases to the new PalmOne PIM databases, Date Book to Calendar, etc. It has nothing to do with NVFS, and in fact first occurred on the Tungsten T3. Nice try, though.

And thanks for reading my site!

And talk about defending buggy code! It looks like P1 gets their code written on the cheap and in a rush, without doing the due diligence to document or even check for error conditions, something which even amateur programmers are very aware of.

Jeff's own website (http://www.solomedia.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1376&sid=d444030df98be9e159ec878aee6442f6)

So again, Jeff, who's to blame for the instability of recent P1 devices? 3rd party programmers or P1 themselves? Oh yes I forget, you were saying Palm devices were always as unstable as they are now. Or maybe thats just the apologist perspective?

Surur, you're on my last nerve. You don't care about Palm OS. You just come over here to stir things up and try to prove how very smart you are for using a Pocket PC. You're not fooling anyone.

As it happens, if you'd actually read my article this week, I will hold PalmOne accountable where due. NVFS isn't one of those times. PalmOne's slipshod coding, lack of documentation and refusal to work with third party developers certainly is. PalmOne must change if they're going to survive against Pocket PC, RIM and Nokia.

Now, if you could (and you can't) explain how this week's column on WOYP, which takes PalmOne out to the woodshed for their horrible developer and user relations, makes me a Palm apologist.

Surur

06-14-2005, 08:35 AM

archangel

06-14-2005, 09:38 AM

Jeff has definitely come through with his promise to show both sides of the issue. I think almost all of us have agreed that things are not perfect on either side and Jeff has definitely covered this in his most recent article. Sure Palmone shares the blame, but it is not fair to lay all the blame on them either. Things probably would run better on Cobalt, but how can you expect Palmone to support Colbalt the way Palm Source has handled it?

Yes, there are issues with the current devices, but overall the technology is moving forward. And whether you like the Lifedrive or not you have to admit that Palmone is listening to consumers and trying to give them the multimedia device they want. I personally think they still need to improve it further, but maybe Palm for Linux will be ready for the next Lifedrive and they can put out a true killer device next time out.

I think its fair to ask more of Palmone, but to say that Palmone is a failure and there is no hope in anything, but the PPC is just stupid. The PPC can be nitpicked apart just as easily as the Palm OS if you wanted to. Just the fact that I still can't close a freaking program easily after all these years is reason enough to avoid the PPC. I want more from Palm, but I am not going to give up on them just because they make mistakes. The T5 and Lifedrive may not be for me but they are hardly failures for Palmone. They are a progressive step in the right direction just like the early OS4 and OS5 devices.

strider_mt2k

06-14-2005, 01:37 PM

Jeff, pity I cant access the original article as its a closed yahoo group, but I wont be surprised if you wrong as usual. Regarding taking Palm to task, I'm sure you will start of strong but then petter out as usual, as you did in this podcast. Prove me wrong.

Surur

Surur, I applaud your willingness to come over here and discuss these issues.
Many folks are happy sending potshots from afar, but getting in there and slugging it out in an open forum is really how ideas are exchanged, and that rocks.

I think what you are seeing is Jeff himself being exposed to different viewpoints and changing his tune because of it.
No foul there. Learning changes many things about how we all think and act.

I will be the first to admit that I had some preconceptions about NVFS that just weren't accurate.
I think Jeff will also admit (and has) that Palm dropped the ball on how it handled marketing these changes to EVERYONE, developers, the community, EVERYONE.

What I take issue with, Surur, is how you phrase your questions and posts to be aggressive and combative.
We'll get some real things (those of us that wish to) accomplished by working together on the important stuff, not bickering over petty, personal, and ultimately counterproductive issues.

Jeff, what I have to agree with Surur and others on is that diggin' in your heels on the software compatability issue is only going to work against you.
Palm royally screwed that up, and it's a fact.

People are simply being loyal to software that works for them.
How it was written means nothing to the end user if it works. It worked before, it doesn't work now, and that is all they know.
Folks are loyal to the applications becuase they work (or worked) for the task they needed to.
Or because they spent their hard earned money on it!

The same people who don't want to learn to maintain the batteries on a traditional handheld or use backups are NOW expected to consult some crazy @ss list or do research to see which app is less likely to crash their new expensive handheld!

It flies in the face of the NVFS logic where people shouldn't have to think about that stuff.

Can this be fixed? Heck yeah, it can be great with some tweaking.

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 02:19 PM

I'm just getting more and more mad over this.

Cyker

06-14-2005, 03:21 PM

Understandable - It's a real pisser you try so hard and the other idiot won't concede even one point ;)

But don't stress! Relax! :D

After all, we're all entitled to our views ;)
If it makes you feel any better, imagine how pissed everyone else is too :D
Or we can sell little action figures of the various forum members and you can blow them up in your back yard! Mmm. Might be on to something there...!

strider_mt2k

06-14-2005, 03:24 PM

BTW to back up what others are saying, I haven't found a working T5 OR LD to handle and try yet.
No LDs, and the T5's are locked down.

It's a bummer because the T5 is a darn nice looking piece in person.

EDIT
Don't be mad Jeff, I think we're on the right track here.

Cyker

06-14-2005, 03:35 PM

Aww man, don't tell me you're going round fondling them too?? :eek: :D

strider_mt2k

06-14-2005, 04:24 PM

Well I can't very well say anything for sure until I've seen this stuff for myself.
I found it odd that Staples didn't have a slot for it, just a small standee on the Palm shelf.

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 05:40 PM

I may record 28 tonight. I gotta get my thoughts together. I'm furious with PalmOne...

strider_mt2k

06-14-2005, 05:59 PM

Voice of Bill Gates:
"Good-Good! Use your hatred! Strike Palm down with it and your journey toward the dark side will be complete!"

Remember the lesson at the tree...

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 06:03 PM

jjesusfreak01

06-14-2005, 06:10 PM

Dude, I'm closer to the dark side than you think. Let's just say if PalmOne doesn't change their spots (and quickly) I'll be taking a good, hard look at the VGA, hard drive based, Windows Mobile 5 Dell Axim due this fall.

Say what you like about Microsoft, but they generally work with their developers.
Or you could just wait for one of those upcoming VGA Cobalt devices...

Who am I kidding, go for the PPC!!

Have you seen Creatives new PVP, the Zen Vision. Its got a VGA screen. A serious contender to the Epson P-2000. Now, if someone will just stick a touchscreen, a fast processor, and Cobalt on one of those things...

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 06:12 PM

Have you seen Creatives new PVP, the Zen Vision. Its got a VGA screen. A serious contender to the Epson P-2000. Now, if someone will just stick a touchscreen, a fast processor, and Cobalt on one of those things...

Saw that. I was just thinking yesterday a Treo and that would rock. Now I'm not sure about the Treo part...

Tibbarerew

06-14-2005, 06:21 PM

Remember the lesson at the tree...

Don't go into creepy caves in scary swamps? Cause I'm pretty sure that was the lesson. That or don't do drugs that make you see Darth Vader.

jjesusfreak01

06-14-2005, 06:31 PM

Don't go into creepy caves in scary swamps? Cause I'm pretty sure that was the lesson. That or don't do drugs that make you see Darth Vader.
How do you only have 1 post?

Jeff Kirvin

06-14-2005, 06:34 PM

I'd say Josh is a man of few words, but anyone who's listened to Maximum Geek would shoot me.

Tibbarerew

06-14-2005, 06:35 PM

jjesusfreak01

06-14-2005, 06:39 PM

I'm pacing myself? No? OK I do a lot of reading but not a lot of posting. I'm a complete forum addict so I have to be careful where I start posting. I do like 1src so you'll probably see me posting here more often.
Maybe I just expect to see more posts beside the name because Jeff talks about you so much.

archangel

06-14-2005, 06:43 PM

Dude, I'm closer to the dark side than you think. Let's just say if PalmOne doesn't change their spots (and quickly) I'll be taking a good, hard look at the VGA, hard drive based, Windows Mobile 5 Dell Axim due this fall.

Say what you like about Microsoft, but they generally work with their developers.

Great, if you are fed up with Palm what hope is there for the rest of us. My big issue with switching is rebuying all my software for the PPC. Granted I still have a few aps from my old Ipaq, but I don't think they even work on the WM5. :)

Of course I'm reading ebooks on my N-Gage now so maybe my days of needing a PDA are ending.

Surur

06-15-2005, 05:04 AM

http://www.styletap.com/

Run Thousands of Applications for the Palm OS® Platform On Your Windows Mobile™ Pocket PC Handheld!
StyleTap™ Platform allows you to run applications (and games!) originally written for Palm OS® handhelds on your Windows Mobile™ Pocket PC handheld. With more than 20,000 applications for the Palm OS® platform available – many of them free – you will be able to do so much more with your Windows Mobile™ Pocket PC handheld.

The surprise it that it actually works quite well. No conduits or hotsync yet, but they are planning to implement some replacement.

Surur

Sjweise

06-15-2005, 05:27 AM

But isn't the big problem with PPC is that the hardware is great but the software and how it uses the hardware bites?

Surur

06-15-2005, 07:08 AM

If you really believe that, thats where styletap comes in. Run your POS software (games and even zlauncher) on a pocketpc. Its a bit pointless now (accept to mitigate the loss of your software investment if you were to convert) but in 6 months, if/when they get hotsync/wireless working, it will be a no-brainer.

Surur

archangel

06-15-2005, 09:52 AM

But isn't the big problem with PPC is that the hardware is great but the software and how it uses the hardware bites?

That is what keeps me away. Everytime I pick up a PPC to try out in a store I shake my head at how bad the interface still is. The Windows start menu style interface sucks on a PDA. I loathed my iPaq 3600. The thing I love about the PalmOS is how much it proves that simple is better. PPC is improving in this area, but overall even WM5 is not where I want it to be. God, just let me close a freaking program without going into a sub menu to do it.

The hardware also has lacked much style over the years. I have owned NX70s and Zodiacs so plain jane PPCs are just not going to cut it. I don't even want another device that is designed to be used in portrait mode most of time.

Surur

06-15-2005, 10:13 AM

There is nothing really much to say for or against that. PPC's have always been aimed largely at the business market. Thats why there's a start menu (increase familiarity, lesser learning curve and reduce support costs) and why they usually look quite pedestrian. Consumer devices (such as the Zodiac's or the Clie's) can get away with outlandish looks, as they wont be seen much in a board room (especially the Zodiac).

Portrait is also more paper notebook like (hence the tablet pc portrait aspect) and easier to hold in one hand and easier to use while standing up.

Surur

Jeff Kirvin

06-15-2005, 10:38 AM

http://www.styletap.com/

The surprise it that it actually works quite well. No conduits or hotsync yet, but they are planning to implement some replacement.

Interesting idea, but until they support conduits, BT and WiFi, it's little more than a toy.

You may not realize this, Surur, but I don't need StyleTap anyway. I've owned seven Pocket PCs and used them exclusively from 2001-2003. I own hundreds of dollars worth of Pocket PC software and I was, for a time, a contributing editor on Pocket PC Thoughts.

If I decide to go back to a Pocket PC, I know exactly what I'm getting into. I know ActiveSync is not to be trusted. I know the UI is more wasteful of screen real estate. I know that both Pocket Informant and Agenda Fusion (I have reg codes for both) are far superior to the built-in PIMs. I already own Pocket Plus, regedit and several Today plugins, all I need to make the device usable.

But I'd rather stick with the Palm. While the innards might be a mess, the interface is much more elegant. I'd like PalmOne to pull their collective head out of their hindquarters and start working with developers instead of against them.