1src Forums - 1SRC Podcast TwentySix

Cyker

06-02-2005, 01:19 AM

I could live with G2, but I'd much rather use G1.

Actually, if I was forced to use G2 I think I'd probably use the soft-keyboard instead.

About the basic efficiency of the two, G1 is a lot faster simply because, as you say, it's better at lower-case, which is what the vast majority of text will be.
Unless you're writing C or Perl or something ;)

Do people really find G1 that hard?
Most of the characters are similar to their real-life counterparts, and seeing as I managed to pick it up after a couple hours use I'm sure that most people could.

I still think Decuma blows G2 out of the water if you want more natural writing. G1OTOH is an (IMHO) perfect trade-off for efficiency.
G2 is sortof stuck in the middle - It's not as easy to learn as Decuma but has Decuma's problems, but doesn't have G1's speed but has it's problems.

I'm normally try to display less zealotry wrt G1, but I recently put it on a friend's T|E because he wanted to try it, and he picked it up very quickly.
He had some confusion with the different chars (As I did when I tried switching to G2), but that was soon gone and I think I've gone and converted another Palm user to G1 ;)

It's the little things like not having to interrupt your train of thought to wait for the damned 2-stroke system to figure out what you want. G1 lets me enter as fast as I want without having to do any major learning like I did with Fitali (Which is possibly the fastest soft-entry method available if you can learn it!)

When this stupid lawsuit gets thrown away again, I really hope at least the option is put back. It's really sad that Sony could add multiple entry systems with apparent ease - and have it user extensible too! - whereas for Palm it's apparently impossibly difficult...

Being a realist however, I doubt it will happen. I feel Palm's direction is taking them away from PalmOS - PalmOS has always been more focused on the little things that make life easier - Sony figured this out, and so did Tapwave to a lessor extent, 'tho nowhere nearly as good as Sony.
Palm don't seem to get it, and are definitely headed in a more PPC direction of Big! Features! And! Numbers!.

PPC's have always been easy to sell because they sound awesome; It's not until you actually use them that you get frustrated at the hoops you have to jump through to do stuff.
Palms have always been a tough sell, but the ease of use is such a big point for me and many others who've experienced the so-called 'zen of palm' that we favour these devices with their relatively slow CPU's and tiny amounts of RAM over the big flashy ones. Palm's best advertising has been word of mouth from satisfied users.

I had a quick glance at the article you wrote JK, and that word Ideology jumped out at me.
I think you might have hit the nail on it's proverbial... See, I remember when Palm (Then a piece of US Robotics) first appeared; Their whole design ethic from hardware to software was based around ideology of simplicity and efficiency, down to the tiniest details.
Palm don't have that anymore, and I think that's why they catch a lot of flak. They keep bolting on ever larger kludges onto what was originally a very lightweight OS, forgetting the details but focussing on the big things. This is a very MS way of thinking, and it isn't going to do them any favours in the long run. We've already seen the effects of such thinking in Windows...

If they want to keep their current core market, as opposed to competing with PPC directly or changing their focus entirely, they need to step back, take a breather and take a wide view.
At this point the realist jumps in to point out that they probably will change their focus, probably try to go more mainstream. This could net them a fortune or bankrupt the company - the mainstream is a fickle market ;)

Cyker

06-02-2005, 02:44 AM

Having now listened to the 'cast...

ROFL! Loved the theme music :D Darth Kirvin! :D Emperor Kirvin? :eek: :p
For a second I thought I told AP to play the wrong MP3 (Uh... not that I have the Imperial March on my TH55... nosirree.... *whistles*)

*ahem!* Anyway!

SkinUI - This is what I love about the Podcasts. I tend to skim over the threads, and somehow managed to totally miss this! :eek:
I'm trying it out on my TH55 and it's seriously cool! :D

More Graffiti (Sorrysorrysorry! :p) - It's funny, when I got my TH55 I did a semi-trial of the input methods. I tried Decuma first, since this was the one I was anticipating the most, but even with teaching I found it too slow for normal use. However, I couldn't up the recognition speed because it often mis-interpreted the characters I wrote :(. Left it after a couple of days I think.
I still use it when I'm writing short sentences, and for other people when they want to play with it, but that's about it.

I went back to G2 - Must admit I was a bit prejudiced, but after a few hours I was thinking "Hey, I could live with this!" - Most of the strokes you could write G1-style and they'll still work (Mainly because a lot of the strokes ARE the same as G1...!), and I figured it was just a matter of learning the changed ones, in the same way I had to learn some of the weirder G1 chars (e.g. K, Y, and Q).
Went along like this for a few days, but I started getting 'niggles'. It's the delay for the two-stroke chars that really cheesed me off in the end. The worst was when I was on the phone and had to take some notes - I grabbed my TH the way I'd always done with my T665 and tried to scrawl down what the guy was telling me on the fly, but my text was getting so mangled because I was writing too fast for the recognition delay that it took me a good few minutes afterwards to figure out and correct what I'd written!
That was when I thought "Sod it" and put G1 back on.

I know it's just a small tiny tiny detail, but I just find the instant feedback and return of G1 sooo much more pleasent to write with...

Papageoff

06-02-2005, 03:28 AM

I remember playing with g1 back when palms were young... and I too, much so for the need of one. I thought it was confusing at first but not rediculously so. I picked up most of it. Heck, I was just amazed I could write anything and have it converted into legible text. When I finnally got a palm o' mine own, it had G2. I picked it up, and wrote. It is very intuitive. I still can't get the stinking colon to work but, who's perfect.:rolleyes: I do wish I could input the letters faster, but, people in the hot place want water too.

I certainly understand people's unwillingness to change. I hate change as much as the next man... but if I can make the switch from tighty whities to boxers... G2 will not kill them. :D G2 aint perfect, and you do have to change the way to write but it's tolerable, and having come from a corporate environment, P1 will never go back. That would be the same as admiting they were wrong about something. As we all learned from the american car industry in the '70's... We (consumers) will like what they sell, because they made it with their own best interests at heart. After all, it must be what we want, othewise they never would have made it, right? :cool:

Anyway, I really like these podcasts Mr. K. You just kept making me check my email! :D Keep up the good work.

timepilot84

06-02-2005, 04:12 AM

I've always had trouble doing the non-alphanumerics with G2. I've been using G1 since the Newton and I just prefer it. I don't see what the big deal is with Palm not making it available to us. They won the damn lawsuit!

I find G1 easier to write with accurately when I'm not looking at the device. I have a tough time doing the 2 stroke characters of G2 accurately while talking to people.

Is there any program that anyone knows about that can change the i, k, t, and x glyphs?

vta

06-02-2005, 09:14 AM

I have to say I miss G1, but am not going to make a fuss. The people who cry foul at the loss of Gq are the some individuals that cry foul of Palms lack of marketing skills and inovation.

G2 'might' arguably not be an inovation on G1, but from a marketing standpoint I view it as close to do or die for Palm if they want to sell more units.

Us geeks who like G1 will find a patch, new users just want G2.

SharkCache sounds interesting, but I do not think it will change my mind on the LifeDrive (I returned mine after 2 weeks). I did not have an issue with lag times switching programs (there was a little sometimes but mostly it was fine). My issues with the unit were really 3 things.

1. I have been using a C and have gotten to like the built in keyboard. This is not a strike against the LD just a preference.

2. Seek times to open Excell files etc were at times frustrating. 10 - 15 seconds is not the end of the world, but when you are used to 'instant' on a palm it just was not for me.

3. I paid $499. I have an iPod and the LD is not an ipod killer (i have no problem with that, i did not expect it to be) BUT I thought I could use say 500mb - a gig of the HD for mp3's and so leave my ipod behind. For $499 I thought this was a fair desire... but mp3 playback on the LD was unbearable for me, hiss levels and constant skipping (or cut out might be a better way to describe). My Palm C does not do this, granted it is mono but fine for podcasts, and my older Tungsten T did not. I think this is unforgivable at this price.

NicePalm - ummm, lets hope not, that sounds like an AWFUL name to try and market a device with. My Pocket PC buddies will have a field day making fun of that one!

Adam

Cyker

06-02-2005, 11:09 AM

I was thinking that NicePalm is the kind of name you'd get for a device in Japan :D

ignavia

06-02-2005, 12:07 PM

I loved G1 and was quite proficient with it. When the announcement came about the switch to G2, I installed Jot on my IIIc, to give me a chance to learn the new style before I was thrown in sink-or-swim with whatever my next device may be. Well, than next device was a Zire 71, and I missed some of the customizations that were available with Jot, so I tranferred the program over. When my TH55 came in, I decided to finally convert to straight G2, without the extra Jot customizations (mainly for the letter T), and I've been happy with the switch.

My main aversion to G2 was for the commands, as was brought up when the change was first proposed. If you need to do a Command-K, it will recognize it as a Command-L. I guess that's been fixed, though, but I never use command strokes anyway, so I don't know what I was worried about.

Are you serious? The cut, copy, paste strokes are G2-only? They've become so ubiquitous in my Palm usage that I could have sworn they were there all along. If for no other reason, that's why I could never go back to G1.

Something else great about G2: crazy symbols. IIRC, there was no way to write a ® in G1. The symbol was there, but you had to type it on a PC and sync it over. With G2, if you don't remember the crazy way to write a symbol, you just shift, write the symbol as you would on paper, and unshift. And 99% of the time, it works perfectly.

Honestly, with G1, I used to use the long-upstroke to bring up Graffiti Help fairly often. Since G2, except during the transition period, I can't recall ever using it.

So yeah, to all you G1 Nazis, just give it a shot. You may even like it.

ignavia

06-02-2005, 12:15 PM

Is there any program that anyone knows about that can change the i, k, t, and x glyphs?

Yes, the full version of Jot will allow you to change I to the single downstroke (L then becomes cap L), change K to a cursive K (the kind that looks like a small cap R), T can become the G1 T (you lose apostrophe this way), or a joined + sign, and I don't think you can do anything about X unless you go with something like TealScript that'll let you fully customize.

Bad thing about Jot is that AFAIK, it still costs $20, even though its functionality has now been reduced to a G2 enhancement, rather than a full-out product. I inquired with CIC about this, though it's been about two years since I did.

EdFrmBrighthand

06-02-2005, 01:07 PM

Sorry guys, turns out NicePalm is palmOne's name for the Mobile Manager category in some countries.

Don't ask me why they don't just call it a mobile manager.

Jeff Kirvin

06-02-2005, 01:50 PM

It's the delay for the two-stroke chars that really cheesed me off in the end. The worst was when I was on the phone and had to take some notes - I grabbed my TH the way I'd always done with my T665 and tried to scrawl down what the guy was telling me on the fly, but my text was getting so mangled because I was writing too fast for the recognition delay that it took me a good few minutes afterwards to figure out and correct what I'd written!

That was when I thought "Sod it" and put G1 back on.

The lag in G2, at least the Garnet 5.4 version of G2, is more perceptual than real. Here's what I wrote on WOYP about that.

As for the "lag" in entering text with Graffiti 2, this is the result of overthinking. Here's what's really going on. In the original Graffiti, every character was done with a single stroke. Over time, other applications came to expect this, and began to interpret keystrokes at "pen up". Programs that used autocomplete as well as Palm OS system shortcuts watched for the end of a stroke before they did their thing.

With the original version of Graffiti 2, multi-stroke characters were drawn twice. If you were writing a T, you got an L first, then the L was deleted and replaced with a T when you did the cross-stroke. The problem with this is that it confused programs that waited for "pen up". Graffiti shortcuts would be misread because if you had a shortcut called "cat" it would get as far as "cal" and give up. This early build of Graffiti 2 felt responsive because it was showing something on screen with each stroke, but it didn't work very well for autocomplete.

The newer version of Graffiti 2, which comes on the T5, TE2 and LifeDrive, defers drawing a character until it's sure it's either a multistroke or it's not. Now if you write "cat," you'll get a C and an A and then nothing until the system is sure if you mean an L or a T. You might be writing "cat" or "calm" and it won't draw the third letter until you make either a crossbar, an M or something else that solves the matter. While this solves the autocomplete problem, it looks like it's lagging unless you know what's going on.

If you keep writing full speed, you'll be fine. The uncertainty in Graffiti 2 sorts itself out as you write and it can keep up with you. If you wait for the lag because you think it's still processing what you're writing, you end up with a situation where you're waiting on the Palm, which is waiting on you, while you're waiting on it, etc. Again, just keep writing and you'll be fine.

I can write full speed in G2 and miss nothing. The key is to not wait for the system to "catch up" to what you're writing.

Jeff Kirvin

06-02-2005, 01:52 PM

Sorry guys, turns out NicePalm is palmOne's name for the Mobile Manager category in some countries.

Don't ask me why they don't just call it a mobile manager.

I thought that was the more likely explanation.

Cyker

06-02-2005, 02:10 PM

My main aversion to G2 was for the commands, as was brought up when the change was first proposed. If you need to do a Command-K, it will recognize it as a Command-L. I guess that's been fixed, though, but I never use command strokes anyway, so I don't know what I was worried about.

<snip>

Are you serious? The cut, copy, paste strokes are G2-only? They've become so ubiquitous in my Palm usage that I could have sworn they were there all along. If for no other reason, that's why I could never go back to G1.

Something else great about G2: crazy symbols. IIRC, there was no way to write a ® in G1. The symbol was there, but you had to type it on a PC and sync it over. With G2, if you don't remember the crazy way to write a symbol, you just shift, write the symbol as you would on paper, and unshift. And 99% of the time, it works perfectly.

Yeah, the Command Slash thing was a pain in the neck too, although I didn't encounter it too much.

What are these cut/copy/paste strokes?
For normal clipboard stuff, I do command slash and tap on the cut/copy/paste icon, but usually I'm using LClipDA for all my copy/pasting so this doesn't really affect me. (I highly recommend LClipDA if you are using a DA Launcher of some sort - It's a fantastic multi-clipboard ;))

G1 isn't much harder on symbols - They are ALL two stroke characters, max.
IIRC, the Registered symbol is \ (Extended Shift) and R.
Most of the more obscure symbols can be drawn using an extended shift and then drawing a rough approximation of what it looks like on paper (Yen is extended shift-Y, Euro is e, copyright is c etc.).

There are a handful that are just bizzare (Like the symbols for % and divide - They must have been thought up by someone on hard drugs... I mean, jeez man! C'mon!!), but on the whole the symbols are pretty intuitive.

To be honest, the difficulty difference between G1 and G2 is not that much - I could use either, but prefer G1.
The difference between them basically boils down to a slight decrease in speed for slightly more intuitiveness (Is that even a word?!).
Horses for courses. I just wish Palm'd give us a choice. I'm holding out with a glimmer of hope (For what is life without hope? :D) for them to give us the choice when this stupid lawsuit goes away (Damn you Xerox! All your fault!! DAMN YOOOU!!!), but Palm's "Our way or the highway" approach to things doesn't really make the odds too good... a pity IMHO.

The consequences however, do make me feel more warm and fuzzy towards hackers (real, not press) and open source in general :D

Edit:
Sorry guys, turns out NicePalm is palmOne's name for the Mobile Manager category in some countries.

Don't ask me why they don't just call it a mobile manager.

I bet it's for the Chinese/Japanese market :p :D
Palm certainly do their homework with regard to different customs and mindsets. I bet it'd sell better over there with a name like that than Mobile Manager :D

The lag in G2, at least the Garnet 5.4 version of G2, is more perceptual than real.

<snip>

I can write full speed in G2 and miss nothing. The key is to not wait for the system to "catch up" to what you're writing.

I think the lag you're talking about is different - The G2 in the TH doesn't have that, it has the older 'early-release/replace' G2.
My problem was that if I wrote at full speed and didn't wait for the recogniser, it would more often than not stick the wrong symbol/character in and I'd have to go back and correct it. This would happen too much for me to ignore when I was scribing at full tilt (Thank smeg for screen protectors! :eek: :D)

I must admit I'm still surprised more people haven't found the same thing, unless everyone scrawls really slowly...
I was thinking maybe I was doing something wrong at one point, but as far as I can tell I'm not...

ignavia

06-02-2005, 02:18 PM

What are these cut/copy/paste strokes?
...
The difference between them basically boils down to a slight decrease in speed for slightly more intuitiveness (Is that even a word?!).
The stroke for cut is just like the proofreader's mark, which is a diagonal line starting at bottom-left going to top-right, with a loop in the middle. Like a cursive E, but drawn at an angle. The one for paste is the same stroke in reverse. Copy is a backwards L, drawn in reverse. Start at bottom left, go right, then up.

And yes, intuitiveness is a word. :)

Cyker

06-02-2005, 02:20 PM

Jeff Kirvin

06-02-2005, 02:25 PM

:eek:

Wow, that's Nifty! Are those documented?!

I love gesture-based commands! :D

(This is why I love Opera also :D)

BTW Jeff, do you take requests for the theme tune? How about the Monty Python tune? :D
(The Imperial March fit worryingly well 'tho :eek: :p :D)

See, this is what I mean. Once you actually learn Graffiti 2, all of it and not just what's on the surface, it's pretty darn cool.

Monty Python... Yeah, that would fit, too.

timepilot84

06-02-2005, 02:28 PM

OK, I finally took a look at the punctuation commands for G2 and they're not that bad. I was just used to G1. In G2 they seem a lot more intuitive than they were in G1. In particular, making a colon or semi-colon isn't nearly so frustrating as G1.

GadgetGuru

06-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Having to write three times, to get a simple period, is crazy. And the third time my 'T' becomes an L with a space, I swore PalmOne/Source to hell for patching the infamous 'G1' hole. They have nothing to gain for leaving that hole open, Xerox not going to sue them since they don't include nor sell G1. Xerox will have to go after end users the way RIAA do...

Many users are frustrated that PalmOne broke the G1 trick, not that it uses G2!!

Making a semicolon in G1 is very easy, dot, then up and downstroke...a no brainer really... but you got to learn that, true...unlike G2, but with G2, it's four pen input, instead of two on G1.

ignavia

06-02-2005, 02:55 PM

One major thing I miss from G1 is the directional commands: A stroke in a direction, then back, e.g. an up-down stroke (or a very, very narrow A) would move the cursor in that direction. I very often used the down-up stroke as a "next field" command in address book. Now I'm stuck tapping on the screen. Alas...

ignavia

06-02-2005, 03:06 PM

A correction about my previous statement about Jot:

According to http://www.shopcic.com/platform/palm/:

CIC has phased out the consumer offering of its Palm OS products... Commencing June 1, 2005, CIC will no longer offer support or upgrades on any Palm OS products.

So it seems that Jot is no longer available for purchase. Does that mean that I can freely distribute my registered copy? How do piracy laws apply to software that's no longer available?

Cyker

06-02-2005, 03:25 PM

See, this is what I mean. Once you actually learn Graffiti 2, all of it and not just what's on the surface, it's pretty darn cool.

Monty Python... Yeah, that would fit, too.

I know, although in my experience it works both ways... I'm worried about what stuff that G2 can't do that G2 can... (And it's likely stuff I won't find out about until I really want to use it, if Murphy has anything to do with it...)

Welp, I have G1 now anyway and am not likely to upgrade anytime soon so I guess I'll just keep on truckin' and hopin' ;)

BTW Jeff, do you still use Fitali? How long did it take you to get really proficient at it?
I'm still trying to get the hang of it. It's almost as irritating as learning to type, but because I don't use it as much as I type, I can't get the muscle memory going so easily... Got any insight on learning it faster...? ;)

GadgetGuru

06-02-2005, 03:38 PM

No. Just because it's not for sale doesn't mean the software is now free. And CIC is still offering it to OEMs, lets just hope that OEM will now get the full-featured one, not the lite version that become G2...

Jeff Kirvin

06-02-2005, 03:46 PM

Learning Fitaly: Start visualizing the patterns words make on the keyboard. Eventually you'll start typing by word rather than by letter.

Cursor movement in Graffiti 2: That's what the d-pad is for. Older G1 devices just had up and down buttons.

Cyker

06-02-2005, 04:08 PM

Fitali: Oooh, good tip! Damn, I hope I don't start dreaming of these combos too... it'd be like Mortal Kombat all over again :p

Cursor: TH55 doesn't have a 5-way pad :( *sniff*

Alan G

06-02-2005, 04:49 PM

I have to weigh in on the G1 vs G2 debate. When I first picked up my T3 (and, yes Jeff, I still love my T3 and it does have all the screws...) I loaded the G1 libraries from my Tungsten T on it. At the same time, I also had the Tungsten E, but I left the G2 libraries on there -- just so I could play with the "inferior" new input method. After a few months, I finally bit the bullet and reverted my T3 to the installed G2 libraries and haven't looked back. What changed? I don't really know for sure. Maybe I just realized that the G1 ride was over. Maybe I just wanted to keep up to date with what palmOne was doing. In the end I have to say that I can work with G2 just as efficiently as I used to be able to with G1. (I still remember all of the letters and numbers, but I'm a bit rusty with the shifted characters now.) I do agree that G2 is easier for people to learn. I just look at the business people in my office who wanted to upgrade their Visor Platinums to Tungsten Es. I didn't see them using G1 on the Visors, but I see some of then now using G2 on the Es. Just an unscientific observation on my part.

As for the USB issue with the LifeDrive, I'll have to make sure that I include that in my report to palmOne. I may not get an answer back, but I know that the info will make its way to the correct people if it hasn't already.

Alan G

strider_mt2k

06-02-2005, 05:56 PM

Jeff you nailed the music I thought you would use!

I cannot dig my heels in on the G1 issue. I like it because I know it, but I'd really like to put off learning G2 until my next handheld
Anyone standing by the G1 thing has misplaced priorities, because as you've said -GONE!

I'm tempted to revert my TH55 back to G2, but I sure would like a Giraffe game to help me along like I had back in the day. ;)
I'll try it Jeff, I'll try it. With any luck I'll add my voice to yours on the topic, who knows?
(If not you'll have a detractor with more ammo! ;) )

ignavia

06-02-2005, 08:35 PM

Jeff, like Cyker, I have a TH55 without a 5-way nav. But I tried what you suggested on my Zire 71, and nav down scrolls down by a page, as I expected. I need a "next field" function in address book. G1's cursor down function did that, and the arrow keys on the keyboard still do. I wish I could make tab behave as a "next field" like I can for the keyboard's tab, but alas...

rcartwr

06-02-2005, 11:32 PM

Jeff,

Great cast. If you are Darth Kirvin, does that make VoR Darth Helment?

GadgetGuru

06-02-2005, 11:38 PM

G1 gone but not dead, you could use them in a Windows Mobile.

What G1 enthisiast are up-in-arms against is not that they used G2, it's that PalmOne breaks the G1 workaround... if they hasn't wouldn't it be the best of both worlds? Newbies would get G2 and older G1 loyalist would be happy too with the workaround...

GadgetGuru

06-02-2005, 11:40 PM

that's Star Wars theme, go easy on those... as you know they are copyrighted... Who knows what those crazy guys at RIAA might think of next? Use free music...

Jeff Kirvin

06-02-2005, 11:55 PM

Great cast. If you are Darth Kirvin, does that make VoR Darth Helment?

Actually, as we mentioned in a recent Maximum Geek podcast, I have a real Sith name.

I am Darth Portly, the Wide.

jonquirk

06-03-2005, 01:24 PM

Hi Jeff

If you carry on trying to convince us of the virtues of G2 it won't be long before you'll be thanking the lawyers for making Palm stop forcing us to use G1. Palm have only got off the hook by modifying Graffiti to make it worse; their alternative would have been to develop something different, which they plainly haven't.

I think some of your arguments about the ease of making punctuation marks are a bit suspect because you seem to be forgetting letter frequency; there's only one period in a sentence but there could be many i's t's and k's. I know which I'd like to draw with one stroke.

I perservered with G2 on my T2 longer than the two weeks you suggest will convince me. I had to wait until someone posted the method for getting G1 working at which point I ran, not walked, to download the solution. I couldn't see the sense in having some letters written with one stroke and others with two just to get single stroke punctuation. It's not about learning the two stroke "t"; that's the easy part. It's getting the damned Palm to recognise it when I do it and I have to say that as my T2 has become increasingly flaky as it ages that I think it would be getting harder, not easier to do.

strider_mt2k

06-03-2005, 03:48 PM

I took G1 off my TH55 and was going to make an honest effort to fly G2.

The more I read however, and the more I think about it, I actually have more than one reason to put G1 back on my TH55 and keep on truckin' with that:

1) The standard: I know it! It works! The G1 stuff rocks on my TH55!

2) I worked around the stuff that SONY put in my way (CO comes to mind), why not continue THIS workaround?

3) If Palm is going out of it's way to block G1 hacks and workarounds then it behooves me (and everyone else) to stick it BACK to them by going out of our way to do what we want on our machines!

I hope to GOD my TH55 holds up a while, because I'm not liking where this new POS POS stuff is going one bit.

I reserve the right to waiver.
EDIT
And apparently to have priorities that could, by some, be labeled as "misplaced". ;)
EDIT EDIT
And to sound like an old codger. "Back in my day..."

Cyker

06-03-2005, 04:54 PM

It's a matter of choice and preference - Neither Graffiti is substantially better than the other; Both have advantages and disadvantages.

However, my ability to make the choice is important to me, and in this case I choose G1 :p
This choice is being eroded so I intend to excercise my ability to choose while I am still able ;)

ignavia

06-03-2005, 05:44 PM

I couldn't see the sense in having some letters written with one stroke and others with two just to get single stroke punctuation.

Well, I can see the sense. Get pen and paper. Write the word "cat." C (one stroke), A (one stroke), T (two strokes). There: Sense.

G1 is a unistroke language, so it wouldn't make sense to have two-stroke characters. G2, on the other hand, is not, so I see no reason to omit two-stroke characters. However, with Jot, you can modify G2 to be completely unistroke except for X. (Which, if you recall, was a two stroke character in the *official* G1 stroke list, though it could also be written as a backwards G1 K.)

My biggest gripe with G2, besides the lack of cursor movement strokes, is the optional two-stroke characters, namely F and 4. F can be written just like G1, or it can be written like a lowercase F. So if you always write it as in G1, like I do, then an F followed by a space gets read as just an F. Same thing goes for 4. I write my 4's like in G1, but my 41's always just end up being 4's that I have to go back and fix.

And since someone mentioned the PocketPC having G1 thing, what's up with that? Is Xerox just afraid to sue Microsoft? I mean, I can't blame them...

Jeff Kirvin

06-03-2005, 06:00 PM

No, Microsoft paid Xerox a license fee just in case. Benefits of deep pockets...

strider_mt2k

06-03-2005, 07:41 PM

Off topic, but Happy Birthday Jeff!

Jeff Kirvin

06-03-2005, 07:56 PM

Thanks. I'm not a year older, I'm a year wider!

jjesusfreak01

06-03-2005, 08:34 PM

I cant believe no one has mentioned that OsWin actually sold a couple of those Cobalt devices, and they are now floating around the Palm community.

tlaswell

06-03-2005, 10:27 PM

I used G1 on an M515 for 3 years. I had G2 down in a week or less but I still have problems with the 2 stroke i's and t's. My i's end up as "l.." and my t's end up as "l. ". :confused: I haven't quite figured out if I am dotting and crossing too fast or my stylus is bouncing. More the latter than the former because it works better if I set the T5 down and press hard. It's about time to replace the screen protector :o and where do I get another original T5 stylus? I like the rubber tip :D

strider_mt2k

06-04-2005, 06:30 PM

After some waivering and playing with G2 I've decided that G2 can bite me.

If I have a choice, and if it's all the same in the end, I'm sticking with what I know.

That being said, if some snotty little device comes along in the future and requires me to learn a different method...the heck with that man, I'm a tinkerer! I'll find a way to do what I want then too.
:)

To each his own. There's a thought.

smoothjordan

06-05-2005, 10:24 AM

Like Jeff, I'm beginning to like g2. I do use the onscreen keyboard or external keyboard for most of my data input, howewver

quasar

06-06-2005, 03:23 PM

I had a thought for the theme music...

I was thinking the inspector gadget theme song, but wherever it satd 'inspector gadget' it saysa 'it's mr. kirvin'

i think it would sound good, and the imperial march just doesn't seem appropriate enough...

just my $0.02

Oh yeah, I just got ofer all of grafitti and moved to messageEase. i love it. fewer mistakes, faster...

And the only reason I want cobalt is because it looks better. than garnet.

Jeff Kirvin

06-06-2005, 04:35 PM

And the only reason I want cobalt is because it looks better. than garnet.
Then install SkinUI and FontSmoother.

Cyker

06-06-2005, 05:11 PM

Damnit I was gonna say that! :D

quasar

06-06-2005, 11:11 PM

I did try skinUI, but it sent my Zodiac into an endless reset loop

Jeff Kirvin

06-06-2005, 11:14 PM

Dmitry's still working with Tapwave on that. It will be signed, or so I hear.

Alan G

06-07-2005, 07:57 AM

Assuming that I can get Skype and Audacity to work well together, I should have an interview with Dmitry in my next Tech Talk podcast. I'll post the link when it goes up.

Alan G

Alan G

06-08-2005, 10:18 PM

Despite technical difficulties, I did post the podcast with the interview in it. Pick it up at:

http://www.grassnet.net/podcast

Alan G

Puppy

07-06-2005, 06:02 PM

Sorry about the late response to this. I just recently started listening to 1src’s Podcasts, and just today listened to number 26.

I had to say something about Graffiti versus JOT/Graffiti 2. I’ve used G1 since 1999 when I got my Vx. It took me maybe an hour or two to become proficient with it. Certainlly less than a day.

Because people claimed the Lifedrive couldn’t use Graffiti, I didn’t try installing. I spent a good solid month using G2…and I abhor it as much now as when I first started using it. It’s incredibly slow and inaccurate. I have to constantly watch the screen to see what it’s doing, which is totally unnatural. I can’t really WRITE with it because so much brain power is tied up with just paying attention to what JOT/G2 is outputting. Plus G2 has nothing to do with how *I* write. G1 is much closer to my natural writing, except that you’re only doing the first part of a character in many cases rather than finishing it. I’ve never written a ‘Y’ how you have to write it in G2 for instance, but G1’s ‘Y’ is identical to how I write them.

The idea that G2’s method of capitalization is somehow better is completely bogus IMO for two reasons. G2’s method requires that you look at the screen, whereas with G1 you continue writing in one spot. It’s completely screwy to have to move your hand around to different areas just to do capitals or lower case. Then too, it’s a completely moot point as you can still capitalize letters on modern units in G1 the same way you do in G2, if for some unknown reason you actually want to.
And punctuation? Sure, you have to do an extra tap for a punctuation shift in Graffiti, but it’s quick and simple (and my commas don’t get mistaken for ‘J’s). G2’s punctuation shift requires a stroke before AND after the character, and many of the G2 punctuation characters are obscenely complex, and have as little (or sometimes less) to do with the real character as the G1 counterpart.

Heck, my *mother* learned Graffiti faster than I did when I set her up with my old Visor (aside from being not knowing how to do a few more obscure characters…took me a while to get her to check the built-in guide). I think a month is more than enough time to try out G2, especially when learning G1 was almost instantaneous.

I was so sick of G2 I was seriously thinking of trashing my Lifedrive for a Windows Mobile unit or low-end Palm just to get Graffiti back. I was to the point that I didn’t care if I’d cause a reset loop, I just installed G1 on my Lifedrive and crossed my fingers during the reset…and it worked! I feel like I have a useable tool back, rather than a clunky, irritating toy.

I’m NEVER buying another PDA unless I’m 100% sure it has or can have Graffiti installed on it.

Regarding the Lifedrive though, geez does it have issues. The static during quiet media playback is a huge problem. Docs to Go 7.006 has frequent syncing problems (it thinks files are open when they’re not). I’ve reverted to Docs to Go 6.008 (which has issues, but at least it syncs reliably), and even had to copy over the PalmSource calculator from my busted Clie. The PalmOne version doesn’t “remember” its previous state when you switch apps! (In addition to wasting screen real-estate between buttons.)