rant: purchase money for LifeDrive goes to the Axim

[clie_wannabe]

i guess for me that the LD is another half-baked "innovation" from PalmOne (and what is this that their CEO resigns, and that of buying names-or-whatever back?)...

and i was thinking, "wow! they've finally figured it out!!" *not*

is Palm1 really sitting on its laurels just because Sony is gone?
PS: Sony, where are the driver updates for the VZ90 that you promised??

Palm1 - you'd better wake-up because POS is rapidly loosing share to WM...

as for me, the US$ (actually JPYen) that i was planning for the LD is now going to the Dell x50v, which i just ordered last night

sad to say, i was really hoping for some innovation in the Palm world - unfortunately, im beginning to believe that this is wishful thinking

@Clie VZ90 w/ Netfront 3.1

[Joel]

Ok. Enjoy your Axim.

I do hope you saw this review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Axim_X50v/4505-3127_7-31138229.html) .

[Jeff Kirvin]

I always get a chuckle out of folks that decry PalmOne (soon just Palm) for not innovating. The LifeDrive is an innovation. So was the Treo (I'm lumping Handspring and Palm together, same people), and the Palm V and the Pilot 1000.

Sony, by contrast, isn't an innovator. They're an integrator. Big difference. Like many WM licensees, Sony just packed as many features into each device as they could with little or no thought as to how they'd be used.

Innovation is seeing a need or a potential market and creating something that will zero in and fill that niche.

Benefits, not features. Come on, people.

[clie_wannabe]

Joel, I'll check the review out as soon as I can get to page 2 (CNet somehow crashes when I get to the 2nd page)...

Anyways, my decision to get the Axim was based mostly on user reviews (like those by Tanker Bob, for example) rather than industry reviews (which by far rely on pre-production models - remember the LD's "six-second" lag fiasco?)...

As I would have concluded last night - I could get the Axim (plus an extra battery) for less than US$450...

and compared to the LD at the same price, it provides lots more connectivity which I really need, ie., I can use my CF-based LAN card, CF-based dial-up modem, it has WiFi, BT, SD card (including SDIO), CF cards, etc. I would say that I would have sticked to my VZ90 (a birthday gift from my wife last January), or the NX80V - but with Sony's disregard for customer service, I was just left in the rut that I felt so limited...

cheers!!!

[clie_wannabe]

I always get a chuckle out of folks that decry PalmOne (soon just Palm) for not innovating. The LifeDrive is an innovation. So was the Treo (I'm lumping Handspring and Palm together, same people), and the Palm V and the Pilot 1000.

I do say that the Treo, the original Pilot, and the Palm V were innovations... yes, PalmOne were innovators...

but that was then, and this is now...

Sony, by contrast, isn't an innovator. They're an integrator. Big difference. Like many WM licensees, Sony just packed as many features into each device as they could with little or no thought as to how they'd be used.

Innovation is seeing a need or a potential market and creating something that will zero in and fill that niche.

well, you just countered your original statement - "... seeing a need or a potential market... etc." which is exactly what Sony did... through innovation, Sony revolutionized the Palm world with releases such as the NX-series (the first OS5 handheld), with collapsible (spelling?) VG areas; the UX-series which has dual-wireless, the ever-popular TH-series...

unfortunately, as i have said, that was then, and this is now... and sadly, Sony just wen TOO FAR...

Benefits, not features. Come on, people.

Benefits come from Features (ie., necessity is the mother of invention)... We get the benefits of accessibility anywhere for having WiFi (or having a similar functionality), which i would say is a "feature"...

[applejosh]

I have to agree with clie_wannabe on some points. The PPC platform does offer easier connectivity (and usually all integrated) and has for some time. But it was Sony and Handera who pushed the envelope and got the PalmOS to integrate things (not necessarily in the Sony/Handera way, but in general). VG areas (although props would go to Handera, really, for this idea). Music playback. Wifi (through the use of external cards at least - again, props to Handera since I was using wifi on my HE330 before Sony's NX series). You may view Sony as an integrator, but hey, stuff got put on Palm devices en masse in the Sony line first.

NVFS, in concept, was an innovative idea. However, implementation, again IMHO, leaves a little to be desired. The LifeDrive appears to be innovative. I'll reserve final judgement as more people buy and review production quality models.

But my main beef about Palm is not necessarily about the innovative ideas it may or may not have come up with. It's with their support. My T5 is a prime example. The Find bug has been there for how long? It's been known for how long? Where's the patch? The DM introduced with the T3 caused all sorts of headaches. And it took how long for them to release a specification on the new databases so developers could start looking at ways of avoiding the DM?

I don't mean to rain on PalmOne's parade. I do like the PalmOS. I do, for the most part, like PalmOne devices. I think HotSync is vastly superior to ActiveStink. I like all the apps I've amassed over the years for PalmOS. I like the simplicity of the interface. I like the way it used to be an extremely stable platform. But lately I just don't know what PalmOne is thinking. They need to communicate with the developers better. They need to address bugs in current devices before introducing others. Putting out solid, well performing devices with good lines of communication to the developers in the trenches is what made Palm popular. I hope they get back on track. And to add to the conspiracy theory, I hope that PalmOne does buy out PalmSource to merge the companies again. It seems things worked better then. Splitting may have made sense when there were a few hardware providers, but that really isn't the case any more, and I think we'd see a better device if the two hands communicated better. Again, just my random thoughts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and in the end, it really doesn't matter as long as everyone remains civil in the discussions.

[Serotta]

Sony not an innovator? The T-series? The NR (leading to the NX)? The UX? Come on, without Sony Palm would have died out long ago.

[tanker_bob]

Anyways, my decision to get the Axim was based mostly on user reviews (like those by Tanker Bob, for example) rather than industry reviews (which by far rely on pre-production models - remember the LD's "six-second" lag fiasco?)...
Wow, thanks for your confidence!

You will enjoy your X50v. Its overall performance is on par with my T3. Huge programs like TextMaker take a few seconds to load from built-in storage where I keep it, but most apps pop up just as fast as on the T3. Switching between active and background apps (multi-tasking/task switching) happens instantly. With 64 MB of storage/program memory and 91.4 MB of available built-in storage, you'll have no shortage of space. The two card slots can ease any cramping that you may fear. :) Plus, you can use CF-based peripherals as well as SDIO add-ons.

FWIW, I, too, miss Sony's innovation as displayed in the T-series. The LifeDrive STILL only has one card slot, no real file system for program memory, or network connectivity in the OS. You can patch up a squirrel all day long, and it still won't make it a rabbit at the end of the day. Palm OS was a great innovative solution a decade ago...

[Jeff Kirvin]

Listen to Alan Grassia's Tech Talk podcast #10 about the find bug. It only shows up when you search for absurdly short search terms. Alan searched on "ca" and got the bug. Searching on "cat" showed 39 results (which, last I checked, is more than 8). Is something this obscure really where Palm should focus development effort?

[tanker_bob]

Are you serious, Jeff? My T3 can search on "ca" and produce 100+ hits without issue. Known problems should be fixed, period. That's just basic professionalism. PalmOne has known about the bug since the T5 was first released, yet no fix. The data manager patch was the same story for over a year. That doesn't sound like a company that cares a whit for its customers. I can't believe that you condone that kind of behavior.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I condone this behavior because development is a zero-sum game. If PalmOne spends time and money to fix this, they aren't, say, working on the NVFS optimization for the GSM Treo 650. Which do you think is more important. From a PRACTICAL standpoint, the find bug just doesn't matter. You only see it if you're doing something stupid in the first place. Search on a realistic search term, and the bug doesn't exist.

PalmOne should spend their energy fixing real problems, not the fantasies of anal-retentive geeks. Period.

[tanker_bob]

I condone this behavior because development is a zero-sum game. If PalmOne spends time and money to fix this, they aren't, say, working on the NVFS optimization for the GSM Treo 650. Which do you think is more important. From a PRACTICAL standpoint, the find bug just doesn't matter. You only see it if you're doing something stupid in the first place. Search on a realistic search term, and the bug doesn't exist.

PalmOne should spend their energy fixing real problems, not the fantasies of anal-retentive geeks. Period.
What you apparently mean is that the find bug doesn't matter to you. I didn't come here today to get in a liquid waste contest with you, Jeff. If you want to spend $399 for a device with a known defect in a core function that the manufacturer refuses to fix, that's your business. Most would choose not to do so, and the market shift clearly shows that at least in part. Who wants to buy from a company that cannot or will not fix their products' defects? Shouldn't PalmOne have fixed the PIM data manager, NVFS, Find, etc., issues before releasing them in the market to beta testers for $399 - $499 each? No product is perfect, but all these problems are in core functionality.

Let me give you two examples of what you like to consider "anal-retentive geek" uses. In a large database of appointments, one might want to generate a list of all doctor appointments for tax or insurance purposes. Searching on "Dr." over the course of a busy year or two of medical appointments could easily exceed the T5 limit. Also, in a large database of contacts, one might want to search through everyone from all subsidiaries of a particular company. The common part of the company and its subsidiary names might be a two or three character start like "ABC", as in ABC Imports, ABC Cosmetics, ABC Finanicial Services, etc. With a large company contact list, the find could again easily exceed the T5's Find limit.

You may not personally maintain a large appointment or contacts database, but many of us use PDAs exactly because we do. It all started with PIMs, remember? I wonder if anyone checked the LifeDrive for this defect.

Just the idle patter of an anal-retentive geek... :rolleyes:

[Jeff Kirvin]

The LifeDrive has been tested, and does not have the find bug. As for the rest of it, whatever. I don't care anymore. Do as you will.

[applejosh]

Listen to Alan Grassia's Tech Talk podcast #10 about the find bug. It only shows up when you search for absurdly short search terms. Alan searched on "ca" and got the bug. Searching on "cat" showed 39 results (which, last I checked, is more than 8). Is something this obscure really where Palm should focus development effort?

Jeff, what you smokin'?

Obscure? Just because I choose not to search for an exact phrase doesn't mean it's not a bug that should be ignored. What if I wanted a list of relatives and typed in a surname? What if I wanted to find all clients that live in a particular city? It doesn't matter how short/long the search term is, if it produces more than 8 hits, it breaks. That's faulty. I'm less likely to buy a PalmOne device if it takes them over a year to fix their bugs, regardless of how many "innovative" devices they come out with in the mean time. I don't care that the new devices work properly. I want the device I paid good money for to work like it's supposed to. That's one of the reasons why people are leaving. It's not necessarily because of all the inclusive features of the other platform. The screen quality on PalmOne devices has seen better days. (Mad digitizer syndrome? Dead spots? Buzzing?) The find bug. The PIM database change WITHOUT documentation for developers for over a year. A poor implementation of NVFS. These are just some of the reasons why people are switching. Getting included wifi is just a bonus.

I really want to see PalmOne do well. I want to see solid devices again. I like the Palm platform, but I'm not going to just ignore all the issues the devices have and blindly follow the last remaining PalmOS vendor. You can preach all you want about it being the users' fault for installing certain software or for not doing something properly, but the user doesn't care. All s/he knows is that their new tool isn't working right, and boom, another PPC user is born.

[Jeff Kirvin]

As Alan proved, if you search for at least 3 characters, you don't see the bug. How often do you really search on just 2 letters?

But like I said, I no longer give a crap. It ain't my job to defend Palm, and if people want to complain, I'm not going to try to explain it anymore. Bloody pointless business...

[applejosh]

I searched for an 8 letter term and ran into the issue. That's the problem.

[Cyker]

Well, the fix for it can't need that many zots - I mean, they fixed it in the LD, so backporting it should be dead easy!

Espescially if they do it the cheap-*** Sony way (i.e. Just provide a fixed file which sits in RAM and is erased on Hard-reset) instead of releasing a proper ROM update :p :D
(Well, unless NVFS causes problems with that sort of thing (likely), in which case they really would need a ROM update... :eek: )

[applejosh]

I'm hopefully optimistic that there will be a ROM update and that's why it's taking so long, but I'm not holding my breath. (I'll be kind of disappointed if it's just a RAM based patch file.) I'd like to see an improvement in the NVFS for those of us with the first generation of NVFS devices, which I'm guessing is only possible with a ROM upgrade (although I'm not positive). I guess time will tell.

[Cyker]

Well, I guess they *have* been working hard with the LD, so some slack-cutting is in order.

Who knows, maybe you're right and they are taking so long because they're gonna release a big ROM patch for the T|5 that fixes the find bug, the NVFS allocation and all the other problems...

I'd have more faith in them than Sony's support anyway ;)

In a cunning tangential thread hijack, which PalmOS OEM do you guys reckon has the best post-sale support?
I am tempted to use Sony as the Zero-Rock Bottom yardstick, but to be fair they *did* release patches (Albeit half-assed ones instead of proper firmware patches), and their repair team is very good (If expensive...)

[applejosh]

Has or had?

Since there is really only one PalmOS OEM any more, there's not really going to be a good current comparison model. With the exception of the T5 issues, I've never really had to contact support of any PalmOS manufacturer. I've been really lucky. But I'm not really being overwhelmed with the reponses from P1's tech support staff, but I'm guessing it's because the front line tech support people really aren't privy to what the engineers are doing, and if there's an OS bug, they're not going to be able to help except through the recommendation of (commercial) third party software or what the engineers tel them to say in a script.

[xMist]

Since there is really only one PalmOS OEM any more, there's not really going to be a good current comparison model.

Not true...you have Tapwave's Zodiac -> two SD slots, a 2GB in each... ;) :cool:

[Cyker]

We were talking about tech support, not the PDA's :p :D

And since you're right AJ, I'd have to go with 'Had' :D

[applejosh]

Not true...you have Tapwave's Zodiac

http://tapland.com/news_arc/?id=636

On the other hand, they do seem to have an active development plan for the current devices.

[Cyker]

Well they already released the WiFi+256MB driver for the Zodiac - I think it's the only Palm PDA that supports it! :D

Palm were supposed to release a driver for their PDA's but because they are selling a WiFi card they decided not to. It's a pity and also why I say two slots is better than one...