6-second wait: Fact or fallacy?

[GadgetGuru]

David Pogue's NYT review of the Lifedrive has caused a stir with his infamous 'six-second' wait for application on harddisk to load observation. It may have even deterred a few Lifedrive purchases....

Early adopters, can you approximate application loading times on your Lifedrive. Big and small applications and/or games that has never been run in a while and is being loaded from the harddrive to the cache and run?

Even on previous devices, Applications and multi-megabyte games (PDAMill games, eSoft games, etc). will take a second or two to load from SD before running... so if the six-second wait is only for the biggest of apps, then this might be a non-issue...

[Picard123]

But David Pogue said that the 6 second wait occurred in the Calendar application. He waited 6 seconds *every* time he changed views in the calendar. Calendar is NOT a huge application.

After a while, the cache realizes the user is running calendar again and again and again.........and ONLY then does it become instant since Calendar is stored in the cache.

So, it doesn't matter if programs are large and small. What really matters is if the cache recognizes a program as being run often in order to cache it. Otherwise you *will* wait 6 seconds each and every time when running things from the HD.

[Ezikial Anta]

Thats funny, some early adopters have said yes, there is wait, but no times even close to 6 seconds (1 - 2 seconds lag)

[Gekko]

My THEORY is that the reason you see a WIDE VARIANCE of "Lag" amongst different users is because each user has a DIFFERENT AMOUNT OF DATA ON THE LD!

The "LAG" is PROPORTIONAL to the AMOUNT OF DATA on the LD.

There more data in an App or DB, the less room in the cache/heap and the longer the HD must spin finding it - which slows down the entire device's response time.

Again - this is just a theory.

[iboar]

Since very few people will actually use a watch to time things, they usually just guesstimate, I don't think you can take their estimates for granted. What seems like 2 seconds to one person may seem like 5 seconds to another. Until we see true tests results using a stopwatch, we won't know for sure.

[pdagal]

I just tested this on my review unit with a stopwatch: launch Calendar (1st time since last soft reset so it's definitely not cached): 2 seconds. Switch calendar views: too fast to time- instant.

The calendar is loaded my all my appointments synced from Outlook. I have 1.5 gigs total data on the LifeDrive and 20 megs on the 64 meg program area, so not exactly a clean and tidy unit ;).

[choongyouqi]

so David Pogue in on the dark side!

[pdagal]

Or he's an impatient fella ;)

[clie_wannabe]

ill just to have my brother back in the states check it out - then let me on it...

as a theory, i would assume that as more data gets stored in the HD, or if you are starting up when the HD is in a powered-down state (as in the HD's platters just begins to spin); then you'd definitely experience a lag...

however, this annoyance is small compared to the HD being erased during a "hard reset"...

*weep* *weep*

and i thought Palm1 finally figured everything out (see a previous thread)...

[Ezikial Anta]

Its not likely that we would have a hard reset, and most people can just save the really important stuff on a flash card in case of a hard reset... I mean, you can fit a good amount of data on a 512MB SD, and even fit some of your Media that youll undoubtly have on the LDs HDD...

I dont see it as being catastrophic... Its no different than my Zodiac hard reseting... Everything gets wiped off that too. Now, we just have more space to erase.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Again, hard resets are very, very rare, or at least they should be. If you get into a situation where a soft reset doesn't work, a hard reset isn't your only other option. The next step is a "firm" or "safe mode" reset. Push the reset pin while holding UP on the Dpad until you see the Prefs screen come up. This loads the OS without any other add ons, and gives you the ability to delete the offending application or hack. Then do a regular soft reset and you're back in business.

[Sharkk717]

Now that i have it, I can tell you for sure! NO 6 SECOND DELAY! It can be 1-2 at some times, but it's not that bad unless it's a big app. Calculator loads just as fast as normal, as do most programs.

regards, sharky

[Cyker]

That's what I figured... 3-4 seconds seems a bit much, and 6 sounded ludicrous!

So... you bought one then 'eh?
LudusTech must be doing good business :D

[Jeff Kirvin]

I have fondled a LD now. Got about 45 minutes with one at the Wichita CompUSA before Josh's wife whined us out of there. I'll have my full report up shortly.

But for now, Sharky's right. The "lag" is a myth. Hardly noticeable at all on retail units. The bad reviews came from reviewers using buggy pre-release code.

[r0k]

I just had a chance to go watch David Pogue's nifty LifeDrive review video. Very informative, except for one fatal flaw. In the video, David states the LifeDrive is ok if you don't mind the six second glitches, then proceeds to demonstrate by showing a white screen while he is launching PHOTOS!

PHOTOS?!?!?!

duh!

Dammit david. My T3 has a longer than six second glitch when I view photos!

Why?

Because it is searching the 1 gigabyte of pictures I constantly update and making thumbnails of them!!!

How do I know? because the next time I insert my sd card into my pc, i see a thumbnail file that was created during my most recent six second glitch.

Dammit again david. In the very video you complained about numerous six second glitches, you went into calendar (instantaneously) and switched screens within calendar with each new screen appearing INSTANTANEOUSLY.

In fact, the only white screen six second glitch in your entire video occurred while your lifedrive had gone off to make thumbnails.

This disinformation has kept the palm users' community buzzing much longer than it deserves!

[foghead]

I just loaded Media (the photo viewer) and it took all of two seconds - outrageous. :rolleyes:

[r0k]

i think my media load time is a bit long because i keep about 500+ pictures on an sd card. i imagine that after i do a few camera dumps from 512 meg and 1 gig sd cards to a lifedrive, the time to refresh the thumbnails will be long. if no new pictures are loaded, the launch time for photos (on t3 at least) is much faster.

[GadgetGuru]

david pogue video:
http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?srcht=s&srchst=m&vendor=&query=%22pogue%22&submit.x=48&submit.y=17

[timepilot84]

Just to prove a point, I recreated David Pogue's journey through the LD.

First, I did a reset, to make sure nothing was cached. Second, fired up home, fired up calendar, switched to week view (zero delay), detoured and had to fire up home again (cause I don't have a link to it directly with my setup), fired up contacts, went back home. Total time from start to finish (including an extra stop back at home): 13 seconds

The version that Pogue had to do his review on was a pre-production model, plain and simple. He even acknowledges this in the article.

[Adrenochrome]

Then Shame on P1 for giving the NY Times a pre-production model. How many sales did that review cost them?

[timepilot84]

Then Shame on P1 for giving the NY Times a pre-production model. How many sales did that review cost them?

My thoughts exactly.

[Jeff Kirvin]

My thoughts exactly.
On the other hand, what would it have cost them if the mighty NYT had NO mention of the LD the day it released? He did have some positive things to say about it, too. This obsession with immediate information is a catch 22 and everyone loses.

(Jeff is still working on his Life Drive Fondle Report, but he also just got done driving 550 miles from Wichita, Kansas to Denver, Colorado.)

[Moose Man]

I reviewed temporarily a TH55 last year and the Life Drive is definitely quicker although not as fast as my T5. The reset to launch test will slow the unit down.

One thing I've noticed is that I loaded Crash Pro and when launching it it stated that the current version was not compatible with the version of the Palm OS.

The only "forced" reset so far has been when I launched Media for the first time with some photo's on the SD card from the T5. Then amazingly after the reset, which was automatic, a screen came up stating the Fatal Exception was caused by Media at address XXXX.....so the LD has some sort of resest logging similar to the Treo 650's.

This is a real plus and I think most applications not force a hard reset as a result.

[pdagal]

Also notice that if the LD crashes resulting in a soft reset, it does a chkdsk and leaves a log file of the results which you can read using Docs To Go.

[Surur]

Also notice that if the LD crashes resulting in a soft reset, it does a chkdsk and leaves a log file of the results which you can read using Docs To Go.

So in less than 2-3 days of owning your LifeDrive, both of you have experienced crashes resulting in an automatic soft reset? This does not sound like the most stable Palm ever.

Palm still has a reputation for stability e.g.

ritchiecook
Pocket PC Neophyte
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 1

Posted: Tue 24 May, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: Palm OS
You may say a lot of negative things about PALM OS, however I never reset my Palm. You have to reset a Pocket PC every 2 to 3 hours of use and battery life SUCKS! I am now on my 4th Pocket PC and Third Palm. PALM OS may not be perfect, either is windowsMobile.
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=345970

but its clearly undeserved.

Surur

[Bibles on my T3]

Surur,

Crashes on any new IT device are hardly a 'platform exclusive' issue......they happen on MS stuff & other OS's too....that's IT for you.


1src people & visitors, please be aware that 'Surur' is making similar unconstructive 'sniping' posts over at PalmInfoCenter Forums re the LD. He made it plain in one of his posts that this is effectively 'sport' to him, seeking to annoy enthusiasts of the Palm OS and in the belief that this will give himself enjoyement and satisfaction as what he has convinced himself is the demise of PalmOne/Palm OS taking place.

Surur, do you think you might find your outlook on life might just improve if you 'changed tack' so to speak ?

Have you read The Gospel(s) Surur - as one suggestion...? (I write that as one myself who's far from perfect however & thus is grateful indeed for the Good News of The Gospel !)

I guess what I'm saying though - don't let Surur wind you up, that's what his PIC posts suggest is his primary purpose.....

[pdagal]

Well, since I review devices like the LifeDrive for a living, I try to push them to extremes. If I can't crash a device, nobody can! That includes, Palm, WM and even Linux/QTopia.

So in less than 2-3 days of owning your LifeDrive, both of you have experienced crashes resulting in an automatic soft reset? This does not sound like the most stable Palm ever.

Surur

[Surur]

You guys are being way to casual about these crashes. Over on PIC some-one just posted that his T5 crashes 6-9 times per day.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=151868&highlight=&sid=d0a19bcd41f75c5a4f6d5ab42fd48ced#151868

Since the LifeDrive is just a T5 + HDD, I would not be surprised to see it exhibit the same behavior.

I thought Palm was all about stability?

Surur

[jean-roch]

there was a lot of applications which were not compatible for the new system of memory too, I had the same problem with the T3, and every time there's a new model it takes time to have new releases :)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that this guy on PIC will have the same problems with the LifeDrive. Why? Because he's running buggy applications.

I have a T5. I'm typing this on a T5. And my T5 doesn't crash. Or I should say every crash I get I can trace back to an application problem. I've had a lot of crashes this week because I'm beta testing SkinUI. But when I'm running stable apps, my T5 is stable.

The newer revs of Garnet are much, much stricter about poorly written apps than previous versions. They're less forgiving of seat-of-your-pants programming. Programmers that follow the rules will have no problems, nor will users of apps that follow the rules.

Someone should tell that guy about the compatability list over on PalmFocus. I'll be dollars to donuts he's running an app that does something Garnet doesn't allow anymore.

[Surur]

As an OS advance it should become more resilient, not more brittle.

I had a T5, and it crashed at least once a day during a hotsync. It could be quickly fixed by doing a soft reset and syncing again, but I'm not willing to put up with something that crashes that much.

As far as I know, it wasn't related to third party software, and I always do a clean install of my PDAs (after learning the hard way years ago).
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b1090b88e87e8b796bb0d4ef8df6e44f

Its always convenient to make excuses and blame 3rd party software, but tell that to all these people. ( Whats wrong with the T5? (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b1090b88e87e8b796bb0d4ef8df6e44f) ) Apparently the T5 has a memory leak which has still not been fixed yet.

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

As an OS advance it should become more resilient, not more brittle.


http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b1090b88e87e8b796bb0d4ef8df6e44f

Its always convenient to make excuses and blame 3rd party software, but tell that to all these people. ( Whats wrong with the T5? (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b1090b88e87e8b796bb0d4ef8df6e44f) ) Apparently the T5 has a memory leak which has still not been fixed yet.
No leak that I've seen, but again, I don't run crappy apps, of if I do, I know what I'm doing.

But the point about OSs becoming more tolerant over time is BS and you darn well know it, Surur. Windows XP disallowed a LOT of stuff Windows 2000 allowed (ask anyone who owned a scanner prior to XP's release if they still use it) and Windows NT disallowed a lot of things that worked in Windows 3.1. You're just blowing smoke here.

Plus, explain to me how you can run any application that ran on my Jornada 540 on any current Pocket PC.

Nice try, though.

[Jeff Kirvin]

And by the way, the crash after HotSync is always attributable to third party software on the T5. I've ferreted out a few of the offenders myself. ClipPro is probably the most common cause of this problem.

[jjesusfreak01]

And by the way, the crash after HotSync is always attributable to third party software on the T5. I've ferreted out a few of the offenders myself. ClipPro is probably the most common cause of this problem.
Dont hotsync! LOL

Yes, of course Jeff, it does always help to know what you are doing when you mess up your PDA. The nice thing about mine is that it is both not computer reliant, and almost everything important is stored on the card, so I never have a problem, even if I have to do a hard reset. I could also mention that I keep two backups. I have a TealBackup backup, and MSBackup directory where all of my files are stored. I can do a general system restore from MSBackup (its alot more reliable), and then pull any other altered (updated) files off of the TB directory.

I also keep reg codes in text files on my card. You just have to tell yourself that a hard reset is no big deal. The only time I was really scared was when ZLauncher erased my zlauncher programs directory, where I had recently moved my apps. I didnt erase the file tree on my card though, so I was able to look up all of the missing files and put them back. Needless to say my programs stay in their file system now, and not in the programs directory.

[applejosh]

But the point about OSs becoming more tolerant over time is BS and you darn well know it, Surur. Windows XP disallowed a LOT of stuff Windows 2000 allowed (ask anyone who owned a scanner prior to XP's release if they still use it) and Windows NT disallowed a lot of things that worked in Windows 3.1. You're just blowing smoke here. And even more recently, XP vs. XP w/ Service Pack 2. Properly written apps did not have nearly the problems as poorly written apps.

[tritan]

so David Pogue in on the dark side!


I 2nd this , so is it time for some emails to float over to David to express our thank you for a screwed up and unfair review. So whos with me!! :cool:


So where is the LifeDrive Avatar??? :D

[prayer4eev]

Jeff Kirvin
talk to many developers of PalmOS applications - and u will hear that there ARE bugs with new nvfs. and it has nothing to do with 3rd party software.
Igor Nesterov (author of YAHM) talked about bugs in nvfs, and he is Profi. so i belive him.

so your opinion has nothing to do with reality.

and about win 3.1. and XP comparison (i loved 3.1) - i can say only one thing - LMAO.

[Adrenochrome]

You guys are being way to casual about these crashes. Over on PIC some-one just posted that his T5 crashes 6-9 times per day.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=151868&highlight=&sid=d0a19bcd41f75c5a4f6d5ab42fd48ced#151868

Since the LifeDrive is just a T5 + HDD, I would not be surprised to see it exhibit the same behavior.

I thought Palm was all about stability?

Surur
Surur, I've noticed your comments on PalmInfoCenter, and that (by no coincidence) PIC's forum is a more combative place. I've enjoyed 1Src for a long time as a place where people discuss rather than argue. Obviously, you're as welcome here as anyone, but please don't troll.

[Tam Hanna]

Different hard drives IMHO.
5gig vs 4gig one...

[David Pogue]

Just to clarify a few things about my review, guys. First, the 6-second delay is no myth, at least on the unit PalmOne sent me to review. Please watch my online video to see it in action!

(I did NOT say that I had a preproduction unit in the column, btw; if I did have one, PalmOne certainly never indicated as much. And I DID confirm that it had the final shipping firmware.)

Now then: As I wrote in the review, you do NOT see the lag if you're switching between a few small apps; it keeps everything in RAM. You guys keep saying how you fired up the calendar and had no lag--great! Neither do I (except after a hard reset).

But open a big Word document (which will flush most other stuff out of RAM), scroll a couple times, edit. Now try going back to the Home screen, say, or switch calendar views--I get the lag.

I am also able to trigger it with other "large" moves like visiting a couple of graphics-laden Web pages in Blazer; when I go back to other corners of the software, I hit the 6-second spinup.

You'll also see it with just about EVERYTHING when you first turn on the unit after a reset or power down.

PalmOne confirmed the syndrome with me on the phone, and even provided the explanation I paraphrased in the column.

That said, I suppose it's conceivable that there's something "special" about my unit, but I can only write about what I see.

Hope this helps!

--David Pogue

[Bibles on my T3]

David Pogue, Thanks for copying your repsonse here as well as on the Brighthand forums. All I can say is that your report is at variance with many more positive user reports I've seen posted - in particular saying switching off and soft resets do not result in producing the lag type problem. Is it not the case that using a laptop PC with some larger docs & heavy web pages would cause similar lag issues - we are talking hard drive abilities here.... I suppose - and corrrect me if I'm wrong anyone- what you're saying is that if you fill that 32MB RAM cache with any large application or pile of data it will push out that useful buffer that cut's out the lag for all stuff that's been 'cached' until they're recached from more use. One thing though, just how big are these large documents you loaded up, it sounds like they must be pretty huge to flush that cache out.... :)

[Phallacy]

See David's interaction on the pdaBuzz.com review that completely busts the myth he's created of the LD 6 sec delay.

Basically it seems that David is using the PD in a non-realworld way that exposes a weakness of caching (which would mostly be true on ANY computing platform with caching). He's also caught out in another major misstatement as well.

www.pdabuzz.com

[timepilot84]

He's also caught out in another major misstatement as well.

(I did NOT say that I had a preproduction unit in the column, btw; if I did have one, PalmOne certainly never indicated as much. And I DID confirm that it had the final shipping firmware.)

From the NY Times article by David Pogue "(a problem PalmOne says it has fixed since sending out review units)"

I don't know if this guest really was David Pogue, no way of knowing without him being registered.

PS Just to test the scenario put forth in his post here, I made a doc file out of the entire text of Moby Dick changed the font of the entire doc (nearly doubling it's size to about 3 megs) and saved it, opened it on the LD, edited it, switched to TPCMP, watched an episode of Initial D, then was able to open the calendar and switch views with no more than the initial 2 second delay that I'd always encounter. How large are these doc files that he's opening?

[Bibles on my T3]

Thanks chaps, that article certainly makes a lot more sense than Mr Pogues 'journalistic angle' on the issue. :)

[TruthorFallacy]

That was the REAL David Pogue! I emailed him about the criticism that his review was generating and pointed him to this forum for review. The following is my email to him and hie response: Hi David, As a potential PalmOne LifeDrive customer, I read and viewed your video review of the LifeDrive with great interest, since I think you are a great tech news and review correspondent who tries to inject some humor in potentially dry and boring subject matter. I especially like watching you on the CBS Sunday Morning show. However, in comparing your review with about 10 other reviews of this device, one MAJOR discrepency has come up. This discrepancy has to do with the "six second lag" of the LifeDrive. The following is a quote from your review of the LifeDrive: "The most serious cause for pause, though, is the LifeDrive's unfortunate case of narcolepsy. To save power, the hard drive stops spinning between uses. That's fine. What's not so fine, however, is that it takes six seconds to spin up again and feed its data into the palmtop's memory so you can use it. As a result, your work is frequently interrupted by maddening, six-second visits to the dead zone. Everything is frozen on the screen, no button works and your workflow comes to a crashing halt. There's no progress bar or "wait" cursor, either - only a little light at the top of the case tells you: "Please hold; your work is very important to us." These lapses are particularly frequent just after you've turned on the LifeDrive for the very first time. Open the calendar: six seconds. Switch to Week view: six seconds. Open the address book: six seconds. Back to the Home screen: six seconds." This comment has created quite a stir in the Palm community. All the other reviews I have read talked about a typical 1-2 second delay in switching between applications. I have even demoed a production unit at a CompUSA myself and experienced a typical 1-2 second delay. A consistent 6 second delay in a PDA would be unacceptable to most people including me. I am afraid that your review has scared away potential LifeDrive customers and has tarnished PalmOne's reputation in releasing a flagship product with a serious flaw. I am wondering if you were given either a pre-production unit or a defective unit for your review? If either is the case, I would hope you consider obtaining a shipping unit and run through your speed tests again? I feel that a lot of people act (or not act) on your reviews and I would hate to see a company and product discredited because you were given a faulty product to review. The following are some shortcuts related to this issue for further clarification. Thanks for your time, Lance Article on PDABuzz.com: http://tinyurl.com/ad98g Tech Forum Threads: http://tinyurl.com/9mzu9 http://tinyurl.com/8atgp David Pogues response: The 6-second delay is no myth. Please watch my online video to see it in action! As I wrote in the review, you won't see it if you're switching between 3 small apps; it keeps everything in RAM. It is therefore NOT, as you wrote, "consistent." It is, as I wrote, occasional. But open a big Word document (which will flush most other stuff out of RAM), scroll a couple times, edit. Now try going back to the Home screen, say, or switch calendar views--you'll see the lag. I am also able to trigger it with other "large" moves like visiting a couple of graphics-laden Web pages in Blazer; when I go back to other corners of the software, I hit the 6-second spinup. You'll also see it with just about EVERYTHING when you first turn on the unit after a reset or power down. PalmOne confirmed it with me on the phone, and explained it as I did in the column. We even confirmed that I have the shipping firmware version. That said, I suppose it's conceivable that there's something "special" about my unit, but I doubt it. Hope this helps, and please feel free to pass my note along to whatever boards! David Pogue Technology columnist, The New York Times http://www.davidpogue.com http://www.missingmanuals.com ================================== Latest books: "iPhoto 5: The Missing Manual" "iMovie HD & iDVD: The Missing Manual" "Mac OS X: The Missing Manual" "Windows XP Pro: The Missing Manual," 2nd Ed. "Windows XP Home Edition: The Missing Manual," 2nd Ed.

[rodan]

From the video, I gather the complaint was that the Lifedrive occasionaly turns off its harddrive and this causes a wait while the drive spins up to speed.

How much idle time does the Lifedrive wait before spinning down the drive (user selectable?) Does it take 6s to spin back up?

This should be noticed with any app that needs the hard drive when it is in a spun down, power saving state; not just photos or large calander dbs, anything that runs the drive.

Thanks.

[Gekko]

The bigger the DB or file, the longer the lag.

PIM *APPS* reside in ROM. But their DBs reside on the HD - and have to be flushed into the RAM Cache/Heap (if not already there).

If you have 20 contacts there should be little/no lag loading Contacts. If you have 2,000 it will be a different story.

As I've said from the beginning - user experience on the LD will be relative to data size.

I have a LOT of PIM data, so the T5/LD is not right for me. I'll stick with my T3 with *REAL* 64MB accessible/storage fast RAM.

[lifedriver]

I was pretty sure it was the real David Pogue, no one else would be that defensive.

He's not only been here, he's been all over the net totally misrepresenting what he said in his article. When PDABuzz ran an article challenging Pogue's "review", Pogue even posted there and totally misrepresented what his article really said.

In each place, Pogue claimed that his review says the problem only happens after loading ram intensive things.

Problem for pogue is, his review doesn't say that at all.

Here's his review,
http://tech2.nytimes.com/2005/05/19/technology/circuits/19pogue.html?8dpc

And here's the PDAbuzz article that pretty much kills all of his points. (also read the discussion after the article between Pogue and the article writer)
http://www.pdabuzz.com/Home/tabid/54/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/536/ItsaHardLifeDriveLifeDriveReviewDayTwo.aspx

He's given the LifeDrive a very bad rap, and now he's claiming he didn't. My respect for him has dropped a lot.

[Shrink]

He's given the LifeDrive a very bad rap, and now he's claiming he didn't. My respect for him has dropped a lot.
I agree with your assessment, lifedriver. I also am disappointed in Pogue. I never expected him to prostitute himself the way he seems to have. I used to believe him...?
alan

[Gekko]

Perhaps Pogue put a lot of PIM data on the device causing longer delays?

I don't think he has any axe to grind.

[Shrink]

Perhaps Pogue put a lot of PIM data on the device causing longer delays?

I don't think he has any axe to grind.
Maybe, but it sounds as if he tripped over his ego.
alan

[soccrnj80]

I played with a lifedrive at the palmone store in newark airport, there is no 6 second delay. Maybe a second at most, I found it opened applications faster than my t5 did. The early reviews did alot of harm to the lifedrive, I was under the impression that it took 6 seconds, reminded me of my ipaq days, never want to go back to that. The 6 second is a fallacy, I think like Jeff Kirvin explained they had early review units. The lifedrive I used was fast, and that was my quirk with the t5 the lag in open times, I found the lifedrive faster.

[You Dummy]

I played with a lifedrive at the palmone store in newark airport, there is no 6 second delay. Maybe a second at most, I found it opened applications faster than my t5 did. The early reviews did alot of harm to the lifedrive, I was under the impression that it took 6 seconds, reminded me of my ipaq days, never want to go back to that. The 6 second is a fallacy, I think like Jeff Kirvin explained they had early review units. The lifedrive I used was fast, and that was my quirk with the t5 the lag in open times, I found the lifedrive faster.

maybe the mopore data the more lag - you friggin dummy?

[pdagal]

I timed two different LifeDrives (review unit and the one I bought) and both had only a 2 sec. lag. One unit had lots of data on it. Test detailers are in an earlier post I made and in my review: http://www.mobiletechreview.com/palmone-LifeDrive.htm .

[soccrnj80]

yes it seems that there were two life drives the early review ones, and the ones for retail. There is a clear indicator that the ones in stores are faster. Don't call me a dummy, I am a long palm os user and know my sh@t. The t5 that was there as well took longer to open apps compared to the lifedrive. I think it's a brilliant pda, dont know if I need it, but I know I want it.

[SoS]

maybe the mopore data the more lag - you friggin dummy?

"How long is the delay when launching apps? We soft reset our unit to make sure no applications where cached in RAM, the launched a few test apps, including that old standby, Calendar. It took 2 seconds according to our stopwatch to launch Calendar. There was NO delay when switching between calendar views. The LifeDrive was set up as a "real world" unit, with 1.5 gigs of data on the LifeDrive partition, 20 megs of apps and data on program memory, 350 contacts, several hundred calendar items, 60 Memos and 15 Tasks." from PDAGals review

Any further questions troll?

[AdamaDBrown]

To clarify this point for the umpteenth time: The review units sent out by PalmOne were not preproduction models. They were full retail boxed units ready for sale, identical to the ones that you would find in a store.

As for professional reviews being at a varience with the reports from users in the field, I trust the professional opinions. The reason that there ARE professional reviewers is because user reviews are inherently unreliable. Most people who care enough to go out and play with an LD have strong preconceived notions, and are therefore looking for a reason to either love it or hate it, and this leads to details being glossed over. Playing with an LD in a store for 20 minutes isn't the same thing as a week of testing and use. And someone who's just bought one and loves it probably isn't inclined to talk about its warts. The entire point of an objective review is to break down, test, and provide hard information on the machine in question.

[Kitten]

I disagree about trusting reviewers. I trust a user review far more than a 'professional' review. In my opinion, someone who spent their own money on a device, and uses it constantly is more likely to find problems. Someone who has a review unit for a week isn't going to use it in a real world fashion. I read Sammy's review at Palm Addict and PDAGals's review. I trust them more than David Pogue any day.

[SoS]

To clarify this point for the umpteenth time: The review units sent out by PalmOne were not preproduction models. They were full retail boxed units ready for sale, identical to the ones that you would find in a store.

As for professional reviews being at a varience with the reports from users in the field, I trust the professional opinions. The reason that there ARE professional reviewers is because user reviews are inherently unreliable. Most people who care enough to go out and play with an LD have strong preconceived notions, and are therefore looking for a reason to either love it or hate it, and this leads to details being glossed over. Playing with an LD in a store for 20 minutes isn't the same thing as a week of testing and use. And someone who's just bought one and loves it probably isn't inclined to talk about its warts. The entire point of an objective review is to break down, test, and provide hard information on the machine in question.


Presumably, 'professional' reviewers arent so dogmatic that they gloss over variances between reports of other 'professional' reviewers and there clearly are some significant differences. Also, your statement that no 'preproduction' units were supplied to reviewers is inconsistent with the documented fact that at least one review unit had a 5Gb seagate HD - if that's not preproduction, I dont know what is! Anyway, many seem to be happy with their purchased machines, and the lag and battery life don't appear to be as bad as early reviews indicated.

Each to his own and vive la difference....

[timepilot84]

The reason that there ARE professional reviewers is because user reviews are inherently unreliable.

I think you don't have a good understanding of the American system. The reason there are professional reviewers, is because Editors believe that professional reviewers increase the value of the organ to the readers, and thus increase the value of the organ to the advertisers. No more, no less. They probably feel that having a reviewer like David Pogue appeases readers of a certain demographic that is desirable for certain high-paying advertisers.

Please don't attribute any magical ability for objectivity on these shills. They are paid entertainers, no more, no less. This isn't news. A review is someones subjective opinion on a product, show, etc. There is no such thing as an obejctive review.

[Jeff Kirvin]

re: objectivity...

http://www.solomedia.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1328

[GadgetGuru]

One of the reason people believe that there are preproduction units is that the software versions are not the same on all review units.

The 5GB drive included in the preproduction unit is not a review unit but a unit submitted for approval to the FCC.

If Mr. Pogue has just written that it takes six-seconds to open certain big applications, then it would not be such a big issue. But his "These lapses are particularly frequent just after you've turned on the LifeDrive for the very first time. Open the calendar: six seconds. Switch to Week view: six seconds. Open the address book: six seconds. Back to the Home screen: six seconds." Seems to indicate that the six-seconds wait is consistent on opening all apps for the first time...something that nobody else can reproduce. There is a lag but not six seconds...

As for being biased...I believe everyone are biased and on a Palmboard like this one, it is fair to believe that majority are biased toward this platform.

As to full review not the same as an in-store trial...that really depends. A 10-minute hands-on by a proficient Palm user will probably test a unit more than a one-day use by a less techy reviewer.

[Jeff Kirvin]

As to full review not the same as an in-store trial...that really depends. A 10-minute hands-on by a proficient Palm user will probably test a unit more than a one-day use by a less techy reviewer.
Amen. I had an hour (I thought 45 minutes, but Josh says it was a full hour) with the LifeDrive, and I came away from that knowing everything I need to know apart from battery life. But my T5 is my 19th PDA and I know what to look for.

[Ezikial Anta]

Jeeze, Jeff...
19? : ) I thought i was doing good with my 9th...

[Sharkk717]

does anyone know david pogue's email address? i thought i'd send him an email with a few questions...

thanks! regards, sharky

[Kitten]

Here's his address from his site: david@pogueman.com

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeeze, Jeff...
19? : ) I thought i was doing good with my 9th...
Well, I am the 1SRC podcaster... I have a rep to uphold.

BTW, if anyone doubts you can take in a lot of info in a short time, read Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking (http://tinyurl.com/ckn2v) by Malcolm Gladwell. I do a lot of "thin slicing" and the more you know about something, sometimes the less you need to see before you can make a valid judgement.

[AdamaDBrown]

Kitten, I should hope that Lisa Gade, Editor-In-Chief of MobileTechReview.com, isn't going to be too miffed at you for calling her unprofessional.

SoS, I defy you to show a review unit that has a 5 GB Seagate hard drive. The only photos or evidence of any kind I've seen regarding a Lifedrive with a 5 GB HD were FCC photos of a *real* preproduction unit taken months ago. Preproduction models don't come in a retail box, which is what reviewers were given.

This is what I'm talking about about user reviews being unreliable--everyone has their own definition of average use, and everybody has their own definition of acceptable. The point of a review is to say that this is the way it is, this is what I think, form your own opinion. If you took the Lifedrive straight out of the hands of some happy new buyer, and subjected it to the same battery tests that reviewers gave it, you'd get virtually the same results. Same with the lag. But since new users aren't objectively measuring the battery life and the lag, the way a reviewer would, they never realize that it's exactly the same. The user's personal bias either minimizes or exaggerates the issue depending on what they want.

No, timepilot, I don't have a good understanding of the American system. After all, I was only born here, and have lived my entire life here. And, if you'd like to launch any more personal attacks, I happen to be one of those "shills." To correct you, media outlets carry technology reviews because they want to attract readers. This doesn't change the reality of professional reviewers versus amateurs.

What I said about user reviews stands. If you don't believe me, take a look at user opinions on a site like CNET. Virtually all the reviews consist of either "It rocks" or "It sucks".

Yes, a review is an opinion, but there is such a thing as an unbiased opinion. An unbiased opinion is one not clouded by new gadget lust, a negative first experience, fanboyism, or unrealistic expectations. Looking around here, I'm not sure how many people actually qualify on those criteria.

There's a huge amount of carping around here about the "misinformation" in reviews of the Lifedrive. But most of the misinformation I've seen is being spread by users. Review units were pre-production--false. Review units used 5 GB hard drives--false. Practically the only piece of inaccurate information that did come from a review is the six-second lag, which is more like 2-3 seconds in actual use.

Jeff, a 10-minute store visit told you everything you need to know about the Lifedrive? Don't I recall you saying at one point that the casing was plastic? Congratulations on hitting 19 PDAs, though. You inspired me to count, and I realized that the LifeDrive makes 25 for me. I think--I may have forgotten a few.

[Kitten]

I must have stated my reference to 'professional' reviews incorrectly. I thought I had mentioned paying for a device versus using a review unit. But that must have been a mistake.

Also, Jeff clearly mentioned he used the LifeDrive for 45 to 60 minutes not 10 minutes.

[AdamaDBrown]

re: objectivity...

http://www.solomedia.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1328

You're attempting to spin your own lack of perspective. There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about technology. I love new toys and new technologies too. But that's not being a fanboy. What you've taken to doing, Jeff, is completely ignoring all balance and moderation in your evangelism of all things Palm as being better than sliced bread. You refuse to acknowledge any area where the Palm platform might be less than ideal or perfect.

You've argued that WiFi isn't neccessary, ever, because PalmOne didn't include it. You've argued that PalmOS is far superior for development, though every developer I know says the opposite. You've pretended that the T5 doesn't have bugs, and that the Treo 650 doesn't need more memory. That isn't enthusiasm, it's a religion.

[timepilot84]

No, timepilot, I don't have a good understanding of the American system. After all, I was only born here, and have lived my entire life here. And, if you'd like to launch any more personal attacks, I happen to be one of those "shills." To correct you, media outlets carry technology reviews because they want to attract readers. This doesn't change the reality of professional reviewers versus amateurs.

Enough with the drama. Nothing you've said refutes any of my assertions, in fact you've aped me with minor semantic changes to appear authoritative.

You write stories, this increases the value of your organ to advertisers. If I'm wrong, try starting a newspaper with no advertising. Please relax. There's nothing wrong with being a paid entertainer. Perhaps shill was a bit harsh.

Please don't insult the intelligence of the people on this forum by lecturing to us that the reason there are professional reviewers in the world is because of the unreliability of amateur reviewers. It's just not true, and you know it. That's a tertiary reason for pro reviewers if it makes the list at all.

[timepilot84]

Practically the only piece of inaccurate information that did come from a review is the six-second lag, which is more like 2-3 seconds in actual use.

And that one little piece of inaccurate information made it into the title of Pogue's article, and was the crux of his reasons not to buy the LD in his conclusions.

This is exactly why this thread exists.

[Jeff Kirvin]

You're attempting to spin your own lack of perspective. There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about technology. I love new toys and new technologies too. But that's not being a fanboy. What you've taken to doing, Jeff, is completely ignoring all balance and moderation in your evangelism of all things Palm as being better than sliced bread. You refuse to acknowledge any area where the Palm platform might be less than ideal or perfect.

Please. I've stated publically that the PDA as we know it is dying, that the "slate handheld" format will be dominated by Longhorn in three years, relegating both Palm OS and Windows Mobile to phones and media players. I'd hardly call that a lack of acknowledgement of the limitations of the Palm platform.

Adama, you screwed up. You published findings that don't match what real users are experiencing with real world usage. Then you made matters worse by not admitting that you were wrong, and now you're blaming your own readers? You're defending yourself by claiming that you as a professional reviewer are de facto more reliable than those that actually own the units.

Insulting the integrity of your readers is no way to build a readership, man.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff, a 10-minute store visit told you everything you need to know about the Lifedrive? Don't I recall you saying at one point that the casing was plastic? Congratulations on hitting 19 PDAs, though. You inspired me to count, and I realized that the LifeDrive makes 25 for me. I think--I may have forgotten a few.
I said it felt like plastic. I wasn't sure. Now I know from "LifeDrive Autopsy" photographs that it's plastic with a thin outer layer of aluminum.

And it was an hour of intense scrutiny, and I went out of my way to let people know that my observations were not a full review.

And most importantly, when I'm wrong, and it happens, I can admit it and back down.

[lkj]

I stoped using the Zlauncher and the whole experience with LD has been changed. No more 6sec wait (except for large database reference materials). Freq apps like calender, address book load in less than a second. Others load in less then 2 sec.

May be there is some redundancy between the built-in launcher and the Zlauncher.

[Shrink]

I stoped using the Zlauncher and the whole experience with LD has been changed. No more 6sec wait (except for large database reference materials). Freq apps like calender, address book load in less than a second. Others load in less then 2 sec.

May be there is some redundancy between the built-in launcher and the Zlauncher.
Have you written to the developers of ZLauncher?
It might be valuable.
alan

[lkj]

Yes, I'll do just that....hope they would have a solution soon.

[Shrink]

Yes, I'll do just that....hope they would have a solution soon.
Great. Let us know if you get a reply!
alan

[Fern]

I tried a display LD at a local store at the weekend. Obviously the only software on this machine is the preloaded software. I found it had a very frustratingly long lag before it opened a program. I didn't time it but I'm sure it was at least 6 secs if not longer. This time lag is certainly enough to stop me considering purchasing one though I like the key board on my TC and I'm not really likely to be in the market for a new PDA until there is a machine with comparable specs including a key board.
I also found it took a lot longer than my TC to load a web page when surfing.

[pdagal]

Fern, did you try soft reseting it? Shoppers do all kinds of crazy things to demo units.

[GadgetGuru]

Now that I got a Lifedrive, I think this six-second wait is a BIG fallacy!!! Sure, there's a second-wait or two, but easy to adjust to, and many times you wouldn't even notice it (that's for loading uncache programs).

There are programs that will load in six-ten-twelve seconds or more BUT those programs will run in five-eight-ten seconds when ran off a card with previous Palm devices. So the difference is really one or two second NOT SIX!

Sure, if those programs are loaded in internal RAM on previous devices, they will launch in less time, but typically, these are bloated applications that will eat your internal RAM big time, so unless you got a T3, T5, or Z2, chances are these apps are residing on your SD card.

[timepilot84]

It continues to amuse me that all of these "professional reviewers" on the web insist that there's horrendous lag on the LD, whilst everyone who's bought one and uses it every day sees none of this. Thank God we have freedom of the press, because in a fascist government, these lies wouldn't have been printed :)

[Antoine]

The reason you are seeing that people are saying that there is that much of a lag is in part because on many reviewer's units that have tons of multi-megapixel pictures, accessing Media does make for a long delay. Also, first impressions seem to count more journalistically than does saying "at first there was a lag but not much to be concerned about thereafter." Of course, that is an issue of playing with teh device as a daily device and not just review device. Just getting a reviewers look at a device will merit less real world value to the reviewer. One thing to take note in any review is to make sure that if you are going to base your opinion on a reviewer's opinion, that you are at least sure of the complete context of their statements. For example, when I reviewed the HP rx3715 last year, I knew that PPC people would slam that review. So I made sure to review that device in the context of one who uses palmos on a regular basis and a first forrary into PPC in a few years. Thankfully, it was accepted by our fanboy sections (at least in part); but still that reveals why just relying on anything more than the opinoin of your own experience when it comes to tech is not a solid principle.

[Cyker]

The current data says:

1) The LifeDrive *does* have large lag spikes (Anything from 4-12 (!!) seconds)
1a) These large lag spikes almost *never* happen except in exceptional circumstances.
2) Average lag is between 0-2 seconds, with a bias closer towards the 0.

Conclusions:
1) The average lag is about the same as any NVFS Palm. If you can live with a T|5, you can live with this.
2) Hard disks have crap access times, but when buffered and pre-fetched properly you won't notice.
3) People love to argue.
4) I want some ice cream.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I agree with Cyker!

[lkj]

Got a reply back from Zlauncher tech support.
They said they will have a release fix for LD very soon. (days - weeks)

[Jeff Kirvin]

Doesn't the new 5.30 beta have better LD support?

[prayer4eev]

Cyker
i dont have any lags on t5 ^^

[lkj]

This is their reply from yesterday around 5pm. Wonder if the beta version on their web page is the one. I'm not so adventurous to try out beta version of any software that play with files transfer and memory.

<<Thank you for your letter!
We have fixed those problems on LifeDrive. And this upgrade beta
version will be available within days. Please refer to our website
for more details about this beta version.
If you have any suggestions or questions, please let us know.
Best regards,
Ken
Customer Service
Guangzhou Zhangzhe Technology CO, LTD >>>

[Paratus]

Z Launcher! Man I love those guys. Can't wait to upgrade from 4.01.

[p_boucher]

I have some consistent lags (not always, but too often) with the Favorites application, but haven't figured it out yet. I'm gonna try ZL5.30 for sure...

[p_boucher]

I have some consistent lags (not always, but too often) with the Favorites application, but haven't figured it out yet. I'm gonna try ZL5.30 for sure...

Not anymore! I uninstalled ZLauncher and everything is nice and smooth now :-) I'll wait for 5.30 to come out.