Tungsten E2 Review

[Joel]

MobileTechReview takes a look at the palmOne Tungsten E2. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=980)]

[Antoine]

Got another review here: http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2484

[SonyStyle]

tungsten e2 out today? wendesday?>

[SonyStyle]

i wish they made a new design for the E series, it looks ugly

[iboar]

I thought it was odd that P1 lowered the price of the Zire31 but didn't lower the price of the original TE. Especially since the rumors were pointing to a TE2 to be released. Now that the TE2 has been released, I wonder if P1 will continue to produce the original TE and have it take the place of the Zire31, thus discontinuing the Zire 31? Afterall, a 160x160 screen is very archaic. I hope P1 eventually lowers the original TE price to around $150--what the Zire31 was.

[JustTesting]

iBoar, why would you care if P1 lowered their price to $150 for the E? You can get it new at many places for cheaper than that currently and it will be heading down to the $100 mark soon I would imagine with this E2 release.

[Antoine]

I thought it was odd that P1 lowered the price of the Zire31 but didn't lower the price of the original TE. Especially since the rumors were pointing to a TE2 to be released. Now that the TE2 has been released, I wonder if P1 will continue to produce the original TE and have it take the place of the Zire31, thus discontinuing the Zire 31? Afterall, a 160x160 screen is very archaic. I hope P1 eventually lowers the original TE price to around $150--what the Zire31 was.

The original TE has been discontinued. There is no need to lower it if it isnt being marketed any more. There also seems to be a shuffling of the Zire line. I am guessing that it will be more differentiated from the Tungsten line in terms of price and features. For that reason you will probably see the next highest Zire no more than $300 but keeping the suggested price of the lowest Tungsten (the E2), around $250.

[iboar]

Early this morning P1 was still listing the TE on their website for $199. Now they've removed it. My point earlier was that it would seem a smart business decision on P1's part to discontinue the Zire 31, and sell the TE for the same SRP as the Zire 31 was, $149. But that's a moot point now since they have already discontinued the best selling Palm PDA!

BTW: I think the TE2 isn't worth any more than $199.

As for me, I don't really care how much they sell for as I have no desire to buy any more Palms, unless they come out with a state of the art design running Cobalt. And even then I wouldn't buy the first generation Cobalt Palm.

[JulianL]

Yeah!!!! I think PalmOne have finally got it.

I'm not particularly interested in the E2, I have a Clie TH55 myself, but I am greatly encouraged by this new product. Maybe finally they are realising that battery life does matter. The pcmag.com claims 7 hours 58 minutes from a charge, and that's with the supposedly very bright screen set on full brightness. If this ripples through to their next high end 320x480 models then maybe my next PDA won't be a PocketPC device.

- Julian

[Laci_Elements]

Im not quite sure how to form this question so please be understanding . From what Ive read about the T5 there is something in that version of the OS that has made many apps unusable ... I know that one of my apps CanDo took out their beam feature because of issues with the T5 OS does the E2 run this same OS with the same issues? I would love to upgrade but I dont want to loose the use of some of my apps in the process.

Thanks :)

[Jeff Kirvin]

As for me, I don't really care how much they sell for as I have no desire to buy any more Palms, unless they come out with a state of the art design running Cobalt. And even then I wouldn't buy the first generation Cobalt Palm.
Why exactly do you want to run Cobalt? I'm honestly curious.

[Mr PDA]

Fine - the new is out now. But for PalmOne 249 US$ are like 249 € (should only be around 200 €)

[jjesusfreak01]

Im not quite sure how to form this question so please be understanding . From what Ive read about the T5 there is something in that version of the OS that has made many apps unusable ... I know that one of my apps CanDo took out their beam feature because of issues with the T5 OS does the E2 run this same OS with the same issues? I would love to upgrade but I dont want to loose the use of some of my apps in the process.

Thanks :)Its the new NVFS file system. Thats a little redundant, because NVFS stands for non-volatile file system, but thats besides the point. It changed the way that the handheld had to access data, therefore making some programs work badly, but because this is the third pda to use this, most of the bugs in the hardware should be worked out, and most software companies have released fixes to support the new filesystem.

Jeff, why dont you just say, "Click here to see an anti-Cobalt rant"?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff, why dont you just say, "Click here to see an anti-Cobalt rant"?
Because I'm curious. Before I tell him why he in fact probably doesn't want Cobalt, I want to know what he thinks it will do for him that Garnet can't. Specifically, I'm looking for an answer better than, "It's newer, so it must be better."

(Technically, Garnet 5.4.7 in the E2 is newer than Cobalt 6.1; the systems are developed in parallel now.)

[tomklaus]

Still waiting for the LifeDrive...

[jjesusfreak01]

Because I'm curious. Before I tell him why he in fact probably doesn't want Cobalt, I want to know what he thinks it will do for him that Garnet can't.Youre right Jeff. If they say, "I want a simple inteface, with no memory problems, and no fun hacks" then Cobalt is probably right for them. Its the perfect smartphone os, but IMAO, not good for stand alone PDAs.

[Antoine]

Im not quite sure how to form this question so please be understanding . From what Ive read about the T5 there is something in that version of the OS that has made many apps unusable ... I know that one of my apps CanDo took out their beam feature because of issues with the T5 OS does the E2 run this same OS with the same issues? I would love to upgrade but I dont want to loose the use of some of my apps in the process.

Thanks :)

I will be testing throughout the next few days but the early indications are that the same issues are not there. If there is anyting in particular you want me to test on the E2, just shoot me a link to the program and I will have a go of it.

NOTE: the OS is 5.4 just as the T5, so if it hasnt been updated to work for the T5 in that respect, I would wager less that it would work 100%.

[Antoine]

Yeah!!!! I think PalmOne have finally got it.

I'm not particularly interested in the E2, I have a Clie TH55 myself, but I am greatly encouraged by this new product. Maybe finally they are realising that battery life does matter. The pcmag.com claims 7 hours 58 minutes from a charge, and that's with the supposedly very bright screen set on full brightness. If this ripples through to their next high end 320x480 models then maybe my next PDA won't be a PocketPC device.

- Julian
Actually the my T5 gets a touch better battery life (dimmer screen though). These are the best models not named TH55 in terms of battery life right now. On the WinMobile side, the rx3715 is a beast with battery life as well. VGA models are not as good until you get the larger batteries.

[iboar]

Why exactly do you want to run Cobalt? I'm honestly curious.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know if I will like Cobalt or not. I do know that I'm not happy with Garnet, hence the reason I switched from Palms to PPC. Garnet does not have the horsepower to run applications like GPS navigation the way WM2003 and greater do. I also dislike the inability to multitask. What I do like about Garnet is its simplicity. But simplicity does NOT get the job done. Cobalt is the last chance I'm willing to give to P1 to get an acceptable PalmSource-based OS on a PDA.

I personally wish P1 would consider using WM2003SE and greater on some of their future models. All this hub-bub about being true or loyal to a perticular OS is pure Bull droppings in my opinion. I will happily use whatever works best for me.

[jjesusfreak01]

All this hub-bub about being true or loyal to a perticular OS is pure Bull droppings in my opinion.I guess it would be pig droppings in that case.

I do not think they should put WM2003SE on any handhelds. That would force them to be liscensees for two os', and that can be expensive. Also, If Palm would get their act together, a few fixes (integrating Cobalt tech into OS5) would bring them to the level of WM. VGA, memory management, and the new graphics environment would be about enough.

[Jeff Kirvin]

To be perfectly honest, I don't know if I will like Cobalt or not. I do know that I'm not happy with Garnet, hence the reason I switched from Palms to PPC. Garnet does not have the horsepower to run applications like GPS navigation the way WM2003 and greater do. I also dislike the inability to multitask. What I do like about Garnet is its simplicity. But simplicity does NOT get the job done. Cobalt is the last chance I'm willing to give to P1 to get an acceptable PalmSource-based OS on a PDA.

So you wanna explain the Garmin iQue? It runs Garnet and does GPS just fine. So do just about any Garnet-based PDAs with Bluetooth. Garnet has plenty of horsepower, though you do need the hardware to back it up.

Garnet also multitasks quite well. I have no problems checking email in the background while reading an ebook and listening to MP3s.

I personally wish P1 would consider using WM2003SE and greater on some of their future models. All this hub-bub about being true or loyal to a perticular OS is pure Bull droppings in my opinion. I will happily use whatever works best for me.

Actually, I think you'll get your wish. I expect to see a Windows Mobile Treo sometime this year. PalmOne has no reason to use Palm OS exclusively.

[iboar]

So you wanna explain the Garmin iQue? It runs Garnet and does GPS just fine. So do just about any Garnet-based PDAs with Bluetooth. Garnet has plenty of horsepower, though you do need the hardware to back it up.

I don't mean to offend here or be offensive in any way. However, you obviously haven't compared side-by-side applications like Mapopolis Navigator that runs on both platforms. If you had, you would see that the PPC version has many more bells and whistles than does the Palm version. If you ask Mapopolis why, they will quickly tell you that WM2003 allows more bells and whistles to be added than does the Palm OS. Anyone who has run GPS Navigation software on both platforms and who is honest in their assessment will tell you the Palm versions do not come close to the PPC versions. Also, the PPC versions use true file management rather than the antiquated crap PalmSource calls file management. This makes database manipulation and storage much easier with PPC applications than with the Palm applications.

BTW: You may be able to listen to MP3s while running GPS navigation software on a Palm. However, try running GPS navigation software and an application like Excel or Word at the same time! WM2003 will run all three and even more at the same time.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Then Mapopolis isn't working very hard on their Palm OS version. I used Pocket PCs for three years straight before returning to Palm OS, and I did use GPS with it. The problems you state aren't with Garnet, they're with the application.

My card and internal storage area are formatted FAT, just like a Pocket PC. When I plug it into my USB cable, it maps as an external drive just a Pocket PC. What's different there?

Why do you need to run GPS while using Word?

[jjesusfreak01]

Then Mapopolis isn't working very hard on their Palm OS version. I used Pocket PCs for three years straight before returning to Palm OS, and I did use GPS with it. The problems you state aren't with Garnet, they're with the application.

My card and internal storage area are formatted FAT, just like a Pocket PC. When I plug it into my USB cable, it maps as an external drive just a Pocket PC. What's different there?

Why do you need to run GPS while using Word?
The only types of multitasking that I would consider useful would be running a web browser and word at the same time.

[Laci_Elements]

I will be testing throughout the next few days but the early indications are that the same issues are not there. If there is anyting in particular you want me to test on the E2, just shoot me a link to the program and I will have a go of it.

NOTE: the OS is 5.4 just as the T5, so if it hasnt been updated to work for the T5 in that respect, I would wager less that it would work 100%.

That is so nice of you! I will put that together and send it to you :)

I also want to say a late happy birthday to you and I hope your lady returns home safely to :)

[Edlin]

Garnet also multitasks quite well. I have no problems checking email in the background while reading an ebook and listening to MP3s.
It would be nice if the apps 'out the box' did this though re checking mail. OR more than one email program anyway.

Task switching is just not good enough for me. Hacks to do something that imo any modern OS should be able to do. Having to reset the pda because it was pushed too hard with mutlitasking. Will OS 6 be better ? I`ld like to try it on a device to find out instead of going by a few knocking it off because it will run things a bit different.

The only feature that really allows for multitasking is listening to mp3s though a few apps wont let you do even that (ie camera, hotsync).

I would like to be able to use web browser and be reading. In fact I like a web broswer while doing just about everything else.

I`ld like to be writing on the lower half of the screen and reviewing from the web or mail on the top. ie tiled windows.

I`ld like to be able to look up an address while in the middle of doing something else without having to rely on DAs or lose my place.

We might even see some better apps for mutlitasking purposes come out then. Desgined & planned to take advantage of a multi tasking OS .... like the difference in app quailty & abillty when the move from win311 to win95 happened.

And whats so bad about OS 6?
Like OS 5 when it came out, it really requires waiting for the 2nd generation or later units to be hitting the 'people' to see how effective the 'no hacks' will be. Remeber in theory there isnt any hacks allowed in OS 5 but that didnt last long in practise.

And with the wonders of supply & demand, the lisencees that the most restrictive on what you can and cant do wont sell as many as the ones that do. As yet, its unknown how many if any manufacturers will even take these security lockdowns & use them. I`m not going to write off an improved OS for possible fears that it might be harder to run a hack.
And I havent heard any other reasons to avoid it.. besides the impact on my wallet ;)

[Jeff Kirvin]

The only types of multitasking that I would consider useful would be running a web browser and word at the same time.
Which with properly coded apps looks like multitasking even in Garnet. If both programs save state, what's the big deal? I supposed the browser could keep downloading in the background, that might be handy, but I think there's a lot of talk around here about something that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but people insist on calling a moose...

[jjesusfreak01]

Which with properly coded apps looks like multitasking even in Garnet. If both programs save state, what's the big deal? I supposed the browser could keep downloading in the background, that might be handy, but I think there's a lot of talk around here about something that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but people insist on calling a moose...
Exactly what I was thinking. Just save the state, and its practically multitasking, since the program only takes like .5 seconds to startup again.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I would like to be able to use web browser and be reading. In fact I like a web broswer while doing just about everything else.

But again, if both applications properly support saving state, in accordance with official PalmSource programmer guidelines, how could you tell if they weren't multitasking? Neither of these applications needs to do anything on its own when you're not interacting with it.

I`ld like to be writing on the lower half of the screen and reviewing from the web or mail on the top. ie tiled windows.

Ah, well, good luck on a handheld device. Even Windows Mobile can't do this without third-party help, and for good reason. It's a usability nightmare and rarely worth the trouble.

It sounds, in all seriousness, like you'd be best off passing on Garnet, Cobalt and Windows Mobile and going straight to a UPC like the Vaio U series or OQO running a full copy of Windows XP. Maybe PDAs just aren't your bag. That's okay.

[Lance]

I will be testing throughout the next few days but the early indications are that the same issues are not there. If there is anyting in particular you want me to test on the E2, just shoot me a link to the program and I will have a go of it.

NOTE: the OS is 5.4 just as the T5, so if it hasnt been updated to work for the T5 in that respect, I would wager less that it would work 100%.There are a number of applications that have problems running on the T5 and the Treo 650. I would probably stick with the Treo 650 list since the E2 is internally closer to the specifications for the Treo 650. Look for the "red light" applications.

Treo 650 Software List (http://www.palmfocus.com/treo650software.asp)

Thanks,
Lance

[Antoine]

There are a number of applications that have problems running on the T5 and the Treo 650. I would probably stick with the Treo 650 list since the E2 is internally closer to the specifications for the Treo 650. Look for the "red light" applications.

Treo 650 Software List (http://www.palmfocus.com/treo650software.asp)

Thanks,
Lance

Thats true, but the E2 works as the patched Sprint Treos so I am guessing that there will be fewer issues. If anything comes up, I will let folks know, I have nothing but time (till my ladi gets back that is ;))

[Edlin]

But again, if both applications properly support saving state, in accordance with official PalmSource programmer guidelines, how could you tell if they weren't multitasking? Neither of these applications needs to do anything on its own when you're not interacting with it.
You dont see the difference between having applications nativily support background mutlitasking and some applications that save state correctly?

I thought you had quite a good grasp on it to go by your articles. And the limits of cooperative multitasking & using a single memory space. (http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column040315.htm & http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column040329.htm)

The simpliest way to tell that that program werent multitasking would be nothings happened since I last looked at the program. IE the spell check on my word doc has stopped while I check my email. Autoscroll has stopped. The video is at the same place as when I left it. Having the browser stop downloading a massive page until i get back to it. Back to my mail program.. oh dear it saved the state just before my 2 MB email downloaded, start it again then as its timed out from the server. Move a couple of hundard MB from one folder to another on MS.. wait till its finnished so it can save state instaed of being able to jot a few notes down during the process.


Ah, well, good luck on a handheld device. Even Windows Mobile can't do this without third-party help, and for good reason. It's a usability nightmare and rarely worth the trouble.
Even windows mobile cant do it? Gosh better give up all wishlists unless windows mobile can do it. Well at least the nitendo DS can <grin>.
As hand held specs get better and better, and more of laptop replacement I think you`ll be suprised what will be possible in two years, let alone ten.
Also some people have put win98 on thier ppcs, as the specs for thier device normally exceeds the min that win98 requires. Not having really looked at it besides some proof of concept stuff a while ago, I imagine that they were able to tile windows...

It sounds, in all seriousness, like you'd be best off passing on Garnet, Cobalt and Windows Mobile and going straight to a UPC like the Vaio U series or OQO running a full copy of Windows XP. Maybe PDAs just aren't your bag. That's okay.
Roflmao. Thanks for okaying my personal choices. </scarasm>
Disagreeing with you about the worth of different palm OS`s doesnt mean I shouldnt use a palm.
Expecting and wanting more from technogly I use doesnt mean I dont like what I have. Otherwise I would of kept my palm pilot & not risked that new fangled Palm OS on those shiny machines.
You might just have to accept that some people have perfecty valid reasons for wanting OS6 to hit the shelves. Honestly the agruements against is sooo much win311 ->win95 crud repeated. Have you choice, explain a few reasons why, but dont badger everyone who thinks outside the square.
Maybe other people's opinons just aren't your bag.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Disagreeing with you about the worth of different palm OS`s doesnt mean I shouldnt use a palm.
Expecting and wanting more from technogly I use doesnt mean I dont like what I have. Otherwise I would of kept my palm pilot & not risked that new fangled Palm OS on those shiny machines.
You might just have to accept that some people have perfecty valid reasons for wanting OS6 to hit the shelves. Honestly the agruements against is sooo much win311 ->win95 crud repeated. Have you choice, explain a few reasons why, but dont badger everyone who thinks outside the square.
Maybe other people's opinons just aren't your bag.

FWIW, I do understand and agree with you about the multitasking stuff you mentioned. Just keep in mind that for those things to work in Cobalt, all the applications have to be rewritten to be Cobalt-native and support multitasking, and that means they won't work on Garnet, which means developers have to maintain two separate code bases. This is why a lot of developers (Tealpoint being the most vocal) are wary of Cobalt.

I also know from experience that the multitasking scenarios you described will grind most Windows Mobile devices to not a screeching halt, but darn close to it. You definitely feel it in WM when you've got heavy background work. And WM is grossly inefficient by leaving stuff running in the background that doesn't need to be there.

I'm not saying we shouldn't want more than we have and to encourage companies to innovate. But you're not going to see a PalmOne device running Cobalt. Period. Just ain't gonna happen. They've invested too much money in evolving Garnet to many of the same tasks to spend anything on Cobalt. Where Cobalt will be most popular is among companies that have no installed base to worry about and have never made a Palm OS device before. These will be mostly cell phone makers. So I'm really not saying Cobalt sucks. I'm just trying to make sure people aren't waiting for Godot.

Lastly, I know I can come across as a pompous *** at times and if that's the impression you're getting, I apologize. I'm not trying to invalidate your preferences in any way. I'm sure you have very valid reasons for wanting to see Cobalt in a device. I'm just afraid you won't see the device you're looking for running Cobalt. You're more likely to see an advanced PDA running Palm OS for Linux, but that won't be until 3Q 06 at the earliest.

[fssia]

I thought it was odd that P1 lowered the price of the Zire31 but didn't lower the price of the original TE. Especially since the rumors were pointing to a TE2 to be released. Now that the TE2 has been released, I wonder if P1 will continue to produce the original TE and have it take the place of the Zire31, thus discontinuing the Zire 31? Afterall, a 160x160 screen is very archaic. I hope P1 eventually lowers the original TE price to around $150--what the Zire31 was.On Palm247, Richard reported a price drop on the Tungsten E over at eXpansys to £117.95 and they still have over 1900 units in stock!!! You can check out eXpansys USA and see if there is also a price drop. ;)

[GaryLim]

Can you try if BackupMan or Backupbuddyvfs works on the E2

[madmaxmedia]

Lastly, I know I can come across as a pompous *** at times and if that's the impression you're getting, I apologize.

LOL! Not many have this much self-awareness-
(not saying you come across like a pompous ***, just making a general comment) ;)

[Edlin]

I know I can come across as a pompous *** at times and if that's the impression you're getting, I apologize
Apology accepted and one in return offered :) I can be a grumpy curmudgeon ;)

I also know from experience that the multitasking scenarios you described will grind most Windows Mobile devices
I know this, but you asked for examples of why anyone would want multitasking or tell the difference between task swapping and mutlitasking. Many of my examples wouldnt stress the device that much.
Hopefully OS 6 should be more efficient than WM. Specs of machines are always increasing too.

I'm just afraid you won't see the device you're looking for running Cobalt. I`ll never see the device I want. Each time it gets close I move the goal posts.

all the applications have to be rewritten to be Cobalt-native and support multitasking Similar scenerios constantly occur in the IT world. At some point the there is a line of dimmishing pay off for backward compatabilty, and at some point an OS or program has to reach an End of Life.
I don't think that OS 5.x has reached that point yet, but it will.
Comes back to a demand argument. Devoplers will change if their bottom line depends on supplying programs for new OSs rather than old.
I do feel empathy for the smaller operations, or single people teams who dont have the resources to rapidily change over or feel they cant support two OS`s, but as a consumer I will buy/use what I desire.
But you're not going to see a PalmOne device running Cobalt. Period. Just ain't gonna happen.
I don't think palmone knows what it will be doing in a years time, let alone anyone else. Your opinon is that it won't happen. Even if somehow you had been talking to the R&D dept. head, the OS development team, the CEO and the cleaning staff, it's still your guess that there won't be a P1 device running Cobalt. As for what will happen in two years time? Three years time? Though I think there's a strong likelihood of OS 7 being released on mass than OS 6.
Palmone might not be the ones to make an OS6 handheld and release it. Maybe someone else will.

So I'm really not saying Cobalt sucks. I'm just trying to make sure people aren't waiting for Godot.
Well it seems you are often saying there is no point to having cobalt, or thats its redundant, or that no one should want it, or that it will worse than OS5, or that there will no apps for it. And that people who are wanting it are wrong. You may not of used the actual word 'sucks' but it seems to be the impression you're giving.

And if Palm1 sees almost no one asking about or looking for OS6 do you think they are more or less likley to make a device with it? If Palm1 sees lots of people asking or looking for OS 6 do you think they are more or less likley to make such a device.

As for waiting, I wouldn't suggest anyone really wait for OS6 - gawd people have been waiting years. Looking forward to a true multi-tasking palm OS is something I do.

anyhow /rant :)