Graphic Card Thread

[zackepceo]

Or, the I don't have any more reasons to say 'Oooh!' now other than the fact that Cinema 4D isn't nearly as hideous as 3DSM. :D

Look at this card JackAxe, it's OpenGL 2.0 and has 640Mb of GDDR3 plus virtual VRAM, and supports up to 9 megapixel displays. http://www.3dlabs.com/products/product.asp?prod=293

And ATI's x850 manages to trounce the 6800, finally.

[SamuraiCatJB]

ATI has always done better in Battlefield than NVIDIA has, so it's no surprise to see the X850 XT PE with a huge advantage there. The rest of the games are basically a wash with the exception of Doom 3 and Half Life 2. Under Doom 3, the X850 XT PE is about 15% slower than the GeForce 6800 Ultra, but the tables are turned as soon as you look at Half Life 2, where the X850 XT PE is almost 17% faster than the GeForce 6800 Ultra. So which card do you pick? Well, both happen to run every single game out on the market just fine at the highest resolutions/detail settings so you can't really go wrong either way. The issue here is predicting whether more developers will use Valve's Source engine or id's Doom 3 engine for future games, and at this point that's a tough prediction to make.

graphics cards are one of those interesting entities... you can argue over strict performance, or strict reliance on standards. The wildcat is a wildcard, it moves up and down on the performance, it used to be king, now it takes turns.

ATI and nVidia still argue over performance from a "purists" standpoint, ATI's floating point compression to 24bit from 32bit achieves a boost of 25% from strictly a throughput issue. So yet only achieves a 15% gain in some markets, but not all. The old HL2 vs. Doom3 can go on forever, as long as the OpenGL to Direct3d can go on. HL2 teams got preproduction and design information so that they could optimize directly for one hardware model, ATI. Is this a good thing? Games designed to run fastest on only one piece of hardware or games designed in a generic way so that hardware has to compete on equal ground? tough call.

I cannot use ATI from a strictly purist view, we are starting to do floating point calculation of mathematical data, not just color, on the graphics card. The human eye may not be able to distinguish between 128bit HDR color and 96bit HDR color, but when calculating energy distribution across a spectrum, fluid dynamics, or other real data, ATI falls by the wayside due to 25% bit loss.

But how many games actually use the graphics card for calculation vs. color maps? not many. There are a few particle engines on GPU which makes special effects localized to the GPU as a whole, and very efficient. so only time will tell which will be better.

[zackepceo]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Samcat. I was wondering why you wanted 96 and 128 bit colour. Right now I'm saving up to buy one of those hardware raytracers. (It's easy for me to write to the software developers to get copies of software due to my developer connections, but giving away hardware is a totally different beast.)

Also, sorry you're feeling ill.

[SamuraiCatJB]

HDR rendering is pretty common now, Lucasfilms EXR file format is also pretty common. the definition is 128bit color and 64bit half-float color. ATI takes the standard definition and trims it on the fly. If this were any other industry and someone decided to "trim" the standard on the fly rather than actually claiming a new standard, they would be called liers and cheats.

But if ATI were to actually try to make a competing standard at 12,24bit floats people would be asking why we need a new standard, they asked the same for 16bit half-floats. but now you are talking 3/8 floats and 3/4 floats? people would shy away. So they claim to support the 16/32 bit float, they simply trim on the fly the calculations because they claim the extra bits are worthless... :)

[JackAxe]

I've been waiting for that monster to be made available for the Mac. 3Dlabls make the only true workstation cards. :)

<]=)

[seraphim_9:11]

On another note, here's something that some might find useful :
www.omegadrivers.net ...This guy seems to be making alternate set of drivers for ATI and NVidia ... ATI is actually happy with this guys efforts and recommends his stuff ...:cool:

Just thought this would be interesting :)

[JackAxe]

That's pretty cool. :)

<]=)

[seraphim_9:11]

I'm wondering if using it would actually let me play games that require more VRAM :confused: ... I have some great ones but cant play them :(

[SamuraiCatJB]

Or, the I don't have any more reasons to say 'Oooh!' now other than the fact that Cinema 4D isn't nearly as hideous as 3DSM. :D

Look at this card JackAxe, it's OpenGL 2.0 and has 640Mb of GDDR3 plus virtual VRAM, and supports up to 9 megapixel displays. http://www.3dlabs.com/products/product.asp?prod=293

And ATI's x850 manages to trounce the 6800, finally.

http://www.3dprofessor.com/index_ektron.asp
as an update the new quadro 4400 512mb card tops in pro-e and maya benches. which is actually better? :) both, in different ways. :)

[JackAxe]

To ramble off subject, but on subject. 10.3.9 will have completely new drivers for Nvidia and ATI that supposedly provide a substantial performance increase. I've heard that Tiger would offer something like this, so these are probably those drivers. I've been reading allot about how with PCs, a window can have complete control of OpenGL and really pump out the performance,where as OSX doesn't like to give up all it's OGL. So games even with properly optimize, non-left behind Window's code which plague virtually all Mac games not only have those factors, but can't grab all the attention of the GPU. I ramble toooooo much sometimes. :o

Any ways, I need Tiger or these new driver anyhoo, since my 6800U's drivers still have not been finalized.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

so you are saying OSX married to the GPU created one spouse who didn't like to give up control, and someone had to go back and teach it to relax....

Gee, that never happens in real life... :)

[JackAxe]

I think that's it. :) I guess core and thes new drivers are kind of like counseling.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

The perfect card: it's own best friend.... ;)
http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=mozclient&u=http%3A//www.hardspell.com/news/showcont.asp%3Fnews_id%3D11588


Because two cores greatly increase with the electric quantity, therefore even if is PCI the Express connection, revealed the card or arranges two 6pin outside to meet the power supply slot, also was needs 4 power sources the 4pin connections.

:eek: four harddrive connectors, or two PCIe additional power connectors.... Dude!!! where's my 1000 watt power supply???!!!??

[JackAxe]

It will never be lonely. Ha a NV45 is considered ancient. :) What kind of world do we live in...

<]=)

[seraphim_9:11]

I tried the Omega drivers ... Uninstalled the ATI drivers and installed the Omega ones - they actually allow you to overclock and have a lot of features that are "if you know them you can tweak them" - so I'll need to tinker with them - havent noticed mych difference - although Max Payne now abruptly quits to the desktop :( ... But the good thing is that the same drivers can be used for different versions of ATI or Nvidia :)

[SamuraiCatJB]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21827

You have to love the folks who drool over any details.... "NVIDIA'S next generation graphic remains a well protected secret. We still managed to get some information about it, despite that."

They managed to get a number, G70 (which was revealed by peeking inside the latest 7x.xx series graphics driver), and G80. Everything else in the article is surmise, and they think they got info? :)

BTW, just to prove that ATI and nVidia corporate officials are nicer than ATI and nVidia fans....

http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMDUz

nVidia attended ATI's birthday celebration at CeBit, and ATI came to nVidia's "party" (party just to party, that sounds like a New Mexico thing). :)

now if we can only get Intel, AMD, and Apple to work out their differences.... :)

[zackepceo]

Apple uses Intel RAID controllers in the XServe, and used to use some AMD logic chips in various stuff..

[SamuraiCatJB]

And the battle of the pro cards!! Three way knockout (4 way if you include your wallet, but that is the first to go down). :)

http://www.3dprofessor.com/review.asp?id=82

[JackAxe]

The ATI's older card is not only expensive, but gets creamed by the 3D labs card for less. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

The ATI's older card is not only expensive, but gets creamed by the 3D labs card for less. :)

<]=)


arrrrr... what's in YOUR wallet? :D

[JackAxe]

Lint....


Oh wait, what's this.... its.... :confused: Oh it's just thumb.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=qfx4400&page=1

No, I am not getting one.... just thought folks would like to see what about $4500 worth of two cards looks like. Note the review, didn't perform any faster for games, but did have noticeable improvements for professional products... thus the reason for the two families of cards. This is the first review that has compared gaming cards to pro cards in pro tests and gaming tests, I am glad to see it. :)

[JackAxe]

TARDS!!! They're comparing a 6800 to a FX4000 chip and saying although they look the same, there are some subtle hardware differences. They are the exact same freaking GPU!!! Well, I guess how something was soldered on the back makes a slight hardware difference. :)

Good article though. Thanks. :D

I hope that Apple offers an AGP card with 2 GPUs and 512+ Megs of RAM for my comp. I'm not into forking out the dogh for a PCI-E Mac, which should be out this summer.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

actually, there are card differences, that is where everyone gets confused. Such as higher speed DVI, DVI Dual link, etc. Most people still think the card does nothing, the GPU does everything. Components do matter, especially in the video output options. But otherwise they are the same GPU.

[JackAxe]

Exactly the same GPU, but I see what you're saying about the board thing. And you have talked about how workstation cards generally get the latest tech first.

I would love a FX4000 in my Mac and for Apple to release one, especially a SLI version. But since I don't do high-end dynamics, nor do I own Maya Unlimited, then it would be an overkill for what I do with Maya Complete. But in a few years, I'll probably need a workstation card.

I like that this article pointed outt that a 6800 is faster thern a X850 in Maya, that's important to me though. Because i'm selfish. :) Now hopefully Tiger and OGL 2.0 on the Mac will help bring our performance up to par with the PC side.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude! Dude!!
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23154

[jjesusfreak01]

Zodiac, Sony with HHE...

Palm OS pdas with graphics cards.

Graphics cards,... Theyre not just for PCs anymore.

[SamuraiCatJB]

An endless growth cycle... and to think my boss in 1995 told me not to specialize in 3D graphics because it was a fad that would end. :) :D

[JackAxe]

Your boss was smoking cra... The irony of it all, now that 3D GPUs are replacing 2D GPUs for everything.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

G70 rumors are starting to surface now that the Sony PS3 specs are final. Plus nVidia did a black-box demo at E3.... 7800GTX. Claiming to have doubled again, as well as jumping to 64bit (each color) wide pipes. 6800 doubled performance and jumped to 32bit wide (each color) at the same time...

Can they do it again? And do you think double precision color is needed? I know the answer, but like to hear others speak. ATI claims 24bit (each color) is all that is needed, ever. :D

[zackepceo]

Now, would you rather have 32-bit single precision or 48-bit double precision?

[SamuraiCatJB]

well, that would be a 1.5 precision... ;) :p

or 1.4999999999998 precision?

[zackepceo]

I meant either have 32-bit double, or have dual precision 24-bit (48-bit)

[SamuraiCatJB]

considering the "extra" things that are done on the GPU, I would rather have true double precision. I can fake a lot of precision through a variety of rendering techniques, but if I am rendering the scene 4 times to give the illusion of double precision using single precision pipelines, then rendering it once at true double precision would be much, much better. Many of us are working REAL hard to stretch the bits to their max, giving us more bits means we have to push the card much less to achieve the same realism.

Realism is where most of the programs are going, if you stack up only a couple of operations, it probably doesn't make a difference. But now you have methods of blending 16 textures on some cards... that multiplies the bit rounding 16 times. The more precision you have the smaller the bits are that are lost and the less effect they have on the overall scene.

[JackAxe]

Ok, on this double precision thing, if I'm getting this right, ATI has 4x24-bit to equal 96, where as NVidia has 4x32-bit to equal 128-bit for their main float?

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Ok, on this double precision thing, if I'm getting this right, ATI has 4x24-bit to equal 96, where as NVidia has 4x32-bit to equal 128-bit for their main float?

<]=)

correct... as of 6800 and x800 series cards for nvidia and ATI. and if I understand the very short and easily misunderstandable news releases, the new nvidia is 4x64 to equal 256-bit for the new 7800 series floating point math capability.

This has one distinct advantage... that is the same precision as your PC 64bit math on the FPU unit of the PC. Though some may be offering 128bit fpu soon. And yes, jack, I am aware that 128bit floating operations are available, but they are not standard all the way through (I don't think), they are simply an option along with 64bit math. That means raytracing and other shading calculations on the CPU and the GPU result in the equal resulting precision. A very good thing for the movie industry (who I suspect is pushing this more than the gaming industry -- the gaming industry will take advantage of it though, it won't be wasted).

You can always truncate your bits to less, but you can never get them back afterwards.

[JackAxe]

What 128-bit, are you afraid I'll go into a ramble about 128-bit SIMD, also known as Altivec. :p

Thanks for clearing some things up. When will the 7800 be available?

Now who would be truncating their bits... Hmmmm. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

official announcement will be in June... they just wanted to bait the market and up their stocks. ;)

[JackAxe]

Ooooooo. 7800, new Athlong 64 and some of these purdy new games. Sounds like a plan. But as mentioned before, if me budget allows. Apple productive accessories get priority.

Question about your Cintiq's, can you use it as a normal tablet to paint on another screen? If yes, is it easy to switch from painting on the Cintiq and your other screen, with maybe a hotkey or something? Paint could be navigation. I'm asking, because I'm deciding if I should buy a 9x12 Intuos 3 to use the 6D paint brush stylus as a replacement for my 12x18. If the Cintiq can work like a normal tablet, then it would be killer upgrade from my 12x18, instead of kind of a downgrade to a 9x12. I must have that variable stylus. *grumbles*

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

I have never had a normal tablet so I don't know for sure. I would expect you can just clone the screen and ignore the light coming from underneath the screen on the Centiq.

BTW, I sincerely doubt you have to give up the Apple to have a 7800. With the 6800 released for the Apple, I highly expect nVidia to do the same for the Apple. So you can have a 7800 card within a short time for the Apple.

I could be wrong, but nVidia doesn't often trying things once... they give them time to test.

[zackepceo]

The Altivec2 in the PowerPC 980s will have double-precision 256-bit float. Fun-fun!

[JackAxe]

I have never had a normal tablet so I don't know for sure. I would expect you can just clone the screen and ignore the light coming from underneath the screen on the Centiq.

BTW, I sincerely doubt you have to give up the Apple to have a 7800. With the 6800 released for the Apple, I highly expect nVidia to do the same for the Apple. So you can have a 7800 card within a short time for the Apple.

I could be wrong, but nVidia doesn't often trying things once... they give them time to test.

I figure the 7800 will be available for the Mac next year, but only in PCI-E. Apple likes to do things like that. :) Tis my life. I hope Apple still supports AGP 8x Pro with the newer NVidia cards, if not I'll have no choice but to go with an ATI in a few years to get more power and vram. *grumbles*

I e-mailed Wacom and they said I could do it through the control pannels, but that doesn't sound to convinient. If anything, maybe I can use Apple Script to setup a hot-key. But unless the money comes in faster, I won't be getting a Cinitiq anytime soon.

<]=)

[JackAxe]

The Altivec2 in the PowerPC 980s will have double-precision 256-bit float. Fun-fun!

That will kick booty for video encoding.

<]=)

[Karim]

At this point, it will probably be smarter to simply buy a PS3/X360 and hack it, lol. When game consoles are more powerful than $2500 computers, PCs are pretty much kicked into the same bucket that consoles kicked arcades into back in 1995. The Bucket of Uselessness.

[SamuraiCatJB]

I figure the 7800 will be available for the Mac next year, but only in PCI-E. Apple likes to do things like that. :) Tis my life. I hope Apple still supports AGP 8x Pro with the newer NVidia cards, if not I'll have no choice but to go with an ATI in a few years to get more power and vram. *grumbles*

I e-mailed Wacom and they said I could do it through the control pannels, but that doesn't sound to convinient. If anything, maybe I can use Apple Script to setup a hot-key. But unless the money comes in faster, I won't be getting a Cinitiq anytime soon.

<]=)

Actually, the nVidia release said PCIe only, which upset a number of people. They may change their plans from this due to market pressure, but somewhere the line has to be drawn. I don't expect like some pessimists that nVidia simply won't release any more AGP compatible cards, I expect something like 7600 and 7200 will be AGP or PCIe.

[SamuraiCatJB]

At this point, it will probably be smarter to simply buy a PS3/X360 and hack it, lol. When game consoles are more powerful than $2500 computers, PCs are pretty much kicked into the same bucket that consoles kicked arcades into back in 1995. The Bucket of Uselessness.


nobody is stopping you, do what ever you want. I would say it is about as smart as taking out a payday advance loan in order to afford it. But hey, prove me wrong. Go for it, let us know how well it works. No cheating though, sell your PC and completely shift over.

[neogin]

how could it be .. u know it from the current xbox .. game console will never be better than pc .. u gotta upgrade more ram .. the graphic card will get old in 6 months .. hdd is not that fast .. and dual core is coming out .. -,-''

as samcat said .. do it and let us know .. how it done ..

[zackepceo]

If anything, the Xbox 360 would make a nice network rendering device or something similar. I can't see it being used for any serious work; the 970 processor in it is crippled. The 3 3.2 ghz processors in that XBox would be, ideally, as fast as regular dual 2ghz 970s.

[JackAxe]

At this point, it will probably be smarter to simply buy a PS3/X360 and hack it, lol. When game consoles are more powerful than $2500 computers, PCs are pretty much kicked into the same bucket that consoles kicked arcades into back in 1995. The Bucket of Uselessness.


Games have always cycled like this, consoles jump ahead visually, then the PCs trump the consoles shortly after. The Geforce 4 was based off the tech found in the Xbox, the 8500, if I recall correctly, was based on tech from the GameCube.

My reasoning for even thinking about another card, is that no matter how fast something is, I always end up needing more. I'll eventually need a new card for Maya, or if one of greater power is available over my 6800U, I would be interested in upgrading to it. And on that note, I can't run Maya or Painter on a PS3. And the processors in the consoles, while more powerful in some areas, are overall weaker in others. A cell processor would never replace a G5, since it is basically a watered down PowerPC, but it would be a good coprocessor.

1995 Arcade, now that's a stretch. :) Afterall, the Xbox360 was being demoed on "G5s." (The XBox360 is still a plastic shell at the moment. ) And to ramble on a bit more, PCs are upgradeable. For example, if I wanted to spend $3K on a PCI-X card, I could do real-time raytracing on scences that would kill a PS3. Or I could spend $6K and get 2 of those cards. And to sum up my rambles, the tech that is being introduced into the new consoles, will be introduce back into the PCs, but in a more powerfull state; This is always the case. It's just that dedictated game machines, are usually better game machines, but not for games that are better played with a mouse and keyboard.

Bleh...

<]=)

[Karim]

The 3 3.2 ghz processors in that XBox would be, ideally, as fast as regular dual 2ghz 970s.

Then as far as speed, it would be a perfectly fine personal computer..

PC will undoubtedly "trump" these systems eventually. But at what cost? That's what I'm getting at here. The cost is becoming a useless waste, it seems. From the perspective of a normal person, it would be a hundred times smarter to buy a $400 non-upgradable computer with the same power as a current $2500 computer (minus some features) and ride it out for four or five years. Companies buy new computers every three.

Also, this is the POWER that is beating PCs now, not the visual quality. That's two different things; all this time, consoles have been coming out with better visual quality on inferior hardware. Now it's a whole other story.

I will, you guys. I'll let you know how it works out. I use my computers to play games, use the internet, convert pirated video, and to use things like Microsoft Office. I can't imagine any normal person needing anything more than the processing power of an X360, at least in this decade.

Also, "u know it from the current xbox".... yes you do. When Xbox was released, you could buy a 2GHz Pentium 4 computer with 512MB of RAM no problem. Xbox contained a PIII Celeron 700MHz with 64MB of RAM. You couldn't have sold a PC with those specs for $300 if you sat twenty ounces of crack on top of it.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Consoles are an economic show piece for economic theory.... A life span of about 18 to 24 months depending on a number of factors, including competition availability and popularity. At the beginning of the market they are sold at cost or at a loss, looking at numbers to push the technology upward, thus relying on the PC market for economic strength to bring down their own manufacturing processes to make the box profitable. By the end of the life cycle of a $400 console, the PC technology equivalent is at the same. Since PCs are generally sold as individual marketable items rather than as single unit costs items, profit is higher. Then it is time to get a new console, one that looks fancy, sells at cost, or below cost and waits on technology of a PC to surpass it.

But without that PC, the console would cost more since profits would often need to be extracted up front. You can buy a cheap $400 PC and get decent performance out of it, by next spring that will be a pretty amazing box. Competition will push the multi-core to extremes, all bets are off with it. Add in a PPU with more advanced GPUs and you still aren't talking much more money for a fairly advanced system, those who want to pay more, can get better quality and better performance for more. A PC is about choice, a console is about mass production. Two completely different economic reasonings.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Here is an interview and the interview asked outright R520 or G70, with prototype early market boards he didn't dodge the question!! hehehe With the specs I have seen, I agree, but we'll all be waiting for the boards to see for ourselves.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50895

The interview is a bit noisy, but worth paying attention if you have the time and can make out the questions. It includes questions about the PPU for physics, next gen shader technologies and bolder environmental effects and the need for scaleable technologies.

[JackAxe]

Another factor about games consoles, is that they make all of their money from the "games." This is also why they can sell the hardware at a loss.

As already mentioned, the XBox360 is only a "shell." All the realtime demos were run on "G5s." With overall more powerfull PowerPCs. And on that note, the PPC that will be in the XBox360 has 3 cores that can only perform "2" instructions per cycle for a total of 6. A 970 can perform 5 instructions per cycle and with 2 procs, that's a total of 10. To top that off, the XBox360 uses a VMX SIMD which is "quite weak" when compared to the SIMD found in the current PowerPCs. This is not a PowerPC I want as my main proc, sinice it would be taking a step back. And I honestly wouldn't even give it as much credit as a DP 2.0 when it comes to overall performanc. But because games can be developed exclusivly for one type of system spec, and a different type of memory found only in game consoles, they can get some really good performance out of them.

Seriously, would you want to sit in your family room running office on a "fuzzy" HD TV with pixels the size of a kiwi? Their's a reason they call it a personal computer.

And another thing, lets see how powerfull these systems truly are after devlopers have had enought time to work them. I've worked in the game industry in the past and Sony tends to BS there overall performance by quite a bit.

<]=)

[Karim]

Seriously, would you want to sit in your family room running office on a "fuzzy" HD TV with pixels the size of a kiwi? Their's a reason they call it a personal computer.

And another thing, lets see how powerfull these systems truly are after devlopers have had enought time to work them. I've worked in the game industry in the past and Sony tends to BS there overall performance by quite a bit.

<]=)

A monitor doesn't have to be a television.

Microsoft is just as full-of-BS as Sony is, lol.

These (probably) $400 devices are much more powerful than any $400 computer could hope to be within the next five to six years. That's all I'm saying. Never said getting one would put you over the most powerful PCs; but you have to admit that the bang you get for your buck is definitely there. Of course, they don't come with a very viable operating system, but I assume the hardware can be hijacked somehow.

The mass-production model that these machines demonstrate is smarter than the "choice model," to me. These two systems would always coexist, so it only makes sense to me that an average-joe-type would invest in a cost-effective solution that works, as opposed to a money-burning system that can do much more than that person will ever even imagine using.

[SamuraiCatJB]

5 to 6 years? yes it is nice, but there is no reason to outright lie. five year old $1000 at the time computer hardware is selling for $50.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Times change, technology advances without the PC market taking most of the dev costs, consoles would cost twice as much. The performance and choice markets drive the cost of consoles down.

The X-box originally sold for $299 and there were complaints that microsoft had so severely sold at a loss that their stocks dropped. They lost nVidia as a partner when the two disagreed at selling at a loss, Microsoft demanded it, nVidia only wanted to sell at cost. Almost everyone agrees the system was underpriced, but that is not uncommon in entering new markets or when wanting to drive out competition.... But lets build one.... Theoretically by above comments, we could not build the equivalent today for under $300 because it was so severely underpriced for its content.... Four years later could we?

Let's build an xbox, 4 year old technology today....
Motherboard CPU, memory combo, 800mhz PIII, $80
Onboard equivalent video, sound
Storage Medium: 2-5x DVD, 10GB hard disk: $5 and $10, respectively
Case and power supply: $11 and $13, respectively

$119, add the fact that you can get free game controllers just for buying hardware from someone, there is your X-box. Seems high? it actually is, the reason is that it is hard to find, supply and demand. One more year and demand will drop off completely and you couldn't trade the same technology, only 5 years old, for the price of a good meal. You can buy 2 year old technology for similar prices.

Let me demonstrate.... These are current prices.
$299 - Athlon 64 4000
$659 - Athlon 64 3800
$486 - Athlon 64 3700
$459 - Athlon 64 3500
$294 - Athlon 64 3400
$283 - Athlon 64 3200
$293 - Athlon 64 3000
$218 - Athlon 64 2800
$162 - Athlon 3200
$175 - Athlon 3000
$150 - Athlon 2800
$142 - Athlon 2600
$134 - Athlon 2400
$136 - Athlon 2200
$172 - Athlon 2100
$135 - Athlon 2000
$179 - Athlon 1900
$172 - Athlon 1800
$178 - Athlon 1700
$185 - Athlon 1500

Notice how we reach a price and then start going back up again? is it because an Athlon 1500 is somehow better than an Athlon 2400? No, it has reached the point where demand still exists to replace spare parts, usually with aging military and business class machines, but occasionally home markets. But the technology is so old that it is low quantity, supply and demand says that the price will go up again, and it does. It is definately not 5 years old yet.... but there is another place you reach, no demand. This is about the 5 year mark. Most machines are either upgraded or the owners have resigned themselves that when it breaks it will be completely replace, why bother replacing 5 year old stuff? technology doubles every 18 months, five years is a very long time in computing terms. Now you can't give the technology away. You see people trading "used" equipment for under $10 on ebay at this point. Simple economics.

Don't fool yourself listening to used car salesmen, now a computer salesmen (not anyone here, just the general market hogwash advertising). The Xbox and PS3 are advanced, 6 months probably, 12 months "maybe", 18 months no way. 5 years advanced? impossible. In 18-24 months, in time for the Xbox 360's death, PCs with equivalent technology will be selling at under $400. This will mark the death of the box, and the birth of the next box. Microsoft must make sure that before this point occurs in the market, they have a new design available. We will hit this mark for previous generations around November, possibly even october. Which is why the Xbox 360 and PS3 announcements are now. It is a wonderful box, but no miracle.

[SamuraiCatJB]

BTW, I could probably get that whole machine for about the cost of the powersupply and case. Our local computer shop in town has a give-away rack. 3 year plus old technology as spare parts. They don't sell it. It costs too much to destroy it (though they do send the oldest untaken pieces to various technology recycling centers annually), and it has no worth to them since they sell new stuff. So, without price shopping on the net, the right shop in town, 4 year old machine for $40 or less.

[JackAxe]

Behold, more graphics power than a XBox for only $36. (http://www.pricewatch.com/prc.aspx?i=37&a=4591) And this card is considered ancient by todays standards. :)

Now to ramble as usual:
Game machines are basically single purpose devices, no software company in their right mind would ever develop a production application for one. Well maybe MS, since they also think that familys will share a single computer and use their existing TVs as the main screen. You know, a "media center." Let dad sit on the couch and browse porn as his children partake in his viewing pleasures. I remember when there was one computer per house hold on average, and it was plugged into the family TV, that was the the seventies and early eighties.

Well, I must go, I need to play Warcraft 3 at 2560x1600 on my 30" HD with my Mac that only has a measly 5Gigs of ram right now, for "FREE" through B-Net. Bleh.

<]=)

[Karim]

In 18-24 months, in time for the Xbox 360's death, PCs with equivalent technology will be selling at under $400.

LOL! I wish I could hold you to that. I'd make myself a bit of money on that bet.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Behold, more graphics power than a XBox for only $36. (http://www.pricewatch.com/prc.aspx?i=37&a=4591) And this card is considered ancient by todays standards. :)

<]=)

that is basically near what I had on-board the one motherboard... game consoles are great, and I may actually buy one this year. Technology is finally getting decent.

I remember when everyone said the same about the SGI graphics in the Nintendo box... in fact I was at SGI in Mountain View for the announcement, demo, and play fest. Though passed on the playfest. Technology advances more rapidly than we all think, because we are stuck in the now... we don't look back often so all we see is now, rarely a comparison to just how far we have come. I've been doing graphics since the Voodoo era so it's a bit personal to me, been through the first 3D graphics processors to the present.

I appologize for it getting to me. Still we are looking at some good stuff. By this time next year we should be hearing quad cores on the horizon. Can't wait until my first dual processor quad-core at work... hehehehehe

Add to that dual core graphics, even dual core graphics in SLI.... Now that nVidia is back on schedule to double every 12 months we are in for some fun for a while!! wooohoooo!!!

[SamuraiCatJB]

LOL! I wish I could hold you to that. I'd make myself a bit of money on that bet.


You'd loose a fortune. They are already dumping 2200 level computers at under $400 to get them off the market. Prices dropping fast on single core 4000 and below because dual core is coming. By next year they will be dumping dual cores for quad cores. PPU cards will be massively improved and graphics will be double both PS3 and Xbox360, without SLI. And rumor has it we may try quad SLI within 18 months. If someone breaks that, graphics are going to jump big!!!

[zackepceo]

I think with this generation of consoles we could see realtime rendering approaching that of cinema studio quality. With the next generation, the physics will be replecated to real life and the interaction with the player will be enhanced. Graphical quality far beyond that found in present-day computer animation is most likely not feasable because of the level of detail required in the models and textures.

[Karim]

You'd loose a fortune. They are already dumping 2200 level computers at under $400 to get them off the market. Prices dropping fast on single core 4000 and below because dual core is coming. By next year they will be dumping dual cores for quad cores. PPU cards will be massively improved and graphics will be double both PS3 and Xbox360, without SLI. And rumor has it we may try quad SLI within 18 months. If someone breaks that, graphics are going to jump big!!!

You're a real dreamer. I'd have to see it to believe it (within your short timeframe).

[neogin]

this guy .. karim .. always against us like crazy .. he doesn't know how to listen people sometime ..

at $400 plus tax .. u can find a dell computer with that spec online .. i always see coupons from dell .. so often .. i don't know why you keep saying .. $2500 worth of computer .. from the xbox and ps3 .. they don't worth for a $2500 computer ..

what samcat and jackaxe said .. i'm totally agree with them .. enough reasons and proof ..

[SamuraiCatJB]

Neogin, it's okay. People are allowed to have their opinion. It is very easy to get excited when you first hear the specs. Three cores, 2 hardware threads per core, 6 hardware threads total. That means 3 hyperthread processors at 3.2ghz, so six 1.6ghz threaded systems, 1 teraflop. Sounds impressive. But it won't be here until November, six months from now. So 18 months from xbox 360 release is two years, 24 months from xbox 360 release is 30 months, almost two computer cycles of 18 months each. We're already pulling the equivalent Intel performance of 4ghz+. So each individual processor is a step down from current performance. That is because consoles have to provide stable reliable capability, they can never be state of the art, they have to be proveable.

In six months the PC architecture will have the same graphics capability, dual core 4ghz, plus the Physics processing chip. For just over $1k. Yes the two specs compare with gain on the console. That is where time comes in. 18months out from this winter we'll probably hit quad core, dual core PPU, dual core GPU, 2 teraflops. But again that will be at the $1k plus mark, previous gen architectures will be pushed down under $400 to make way for the next generation.

It is no different than the sprintime sales going on in town right now for automobiles. They know the 2006 announcements will come this summer. They know they need to move products now, because there will be less profit moving them at fall with the 2006 coming in. Once the 2006 models come in they have to move all the inventory to make room for it, they sell at cost, or if they are lucky just above cost. The same thing happens with PCs, the cycle is just a bit longer.

We are still a month plus out from the next gen CPUs, prices are dropping fast, manufacturers are trying to move inventory before they have to near at cost. It is the salesman's and advertising marketers job to get you so excited you think that this will last forever.

[zackepceo]

Reliable sources tell me that the 990 (Quarter 2 2007) may be made with carbon nanotube transistors or at least with nanotube wires. That would represent an incredible leap in not only computational power, but in the ability for computers to be anywhere. A 10 teraflop core that fits on the head of a needle and dissipates next to no heat (not to mention having extremely low power requirements) would bring the other players in the semiconductor market to their knees.

[SamuraiCatJB]

True, and we have had advancements in holographic memory 1 terabyte in a sugar cube. I was trying to show that even if these do not come about, existing technology trends can continue. New technology like carbon nanotubes and holographic memory, and other things are hard to predict. When they occur there is always an exponential jump in capability.

[Karim]

You keep talking about cutting-edge, state-of-the-art technology when I'm merely talking about value.

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/featured_desktop1?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

There is a Dell system at around $400. (Ignoring the included monitor, lol) Does that look like it's "similar spec" to you? Do you think it will in 6 months? Or 18? I don't think so at all.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Processor/Display
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor (2.80GHz, 533 FSB)


for 400, is not THAT old... that is two years, 24 months... That happens to coincide with my math. So yes, you just proved my point, thank you.

[SamuraiCatJB]

TPC-CP3200
ACI_64-Bit-Custom_OS_PC
Complete sys- AMD Athlon 64 3200 Retail Box W/HeatSink +256MB DDR400 PC3200+K8M800-M2 SATA Raid+Network Lan+Audio+ 2D/3D Gaming Graphics+ATX MidTower+ACI Free Build+Windows XP CD COA+Hi Speed USB 2.0+ACI warr

In 6 months, that will be dual core 2400 for same price, just in time for the Xbox 360, you'll be able to pick up faster graphics and faster processing on the PC, but at a price, as you said. But 18 months after 360 release, that will be dualcore 3400-3800, with a PPU, and similar graphics, faster than the Xbox 360, similar price. And higher end PCs will be much, much faster and capable of much more extensive and impressive game/software.

Because PCs make up the bulk of the R&D for consoles, you cannot have one without the other. Mass production of consoles brings down the cost faster on PCs during the 18month of its expected lifetime per generation. At the same time pushing the R&D onto PC production means consoles can cost less. Banking on that 18month CPU cycle and improvements in production along the way, they can afford to sell at a loss up front, make profits from games, and production units later.

Without the PC market, with consoles taking up the bulk of the R&D for itself, the X-Box 360 would have to market at about $800+. The console market has no intention of killing the PC, which is why at you will see a flood of new technology at the same time as the 360 release. You can pick up the same or faster graphics, a physics processor, and massive dual cores to outdistance the 360. Again, at a price, but that is why the console is cheap. Better performance on the PC, higher price, make up the R&D costs for the cheaper console. Kill the PC, you kill the console since few would pay $800+ for a game-only computer.

[JackAxe]

Why are we even arguing about this, let Karim buy a game machine for his daily "computer" needs. :) I'm sure once he walks into GameCrazy, or another similar store and trys to find Office or a DVD authoring app for his brand new PS3, he'll relize that his only choice is games.

If Dell or other OEM manufactures made money off the software and not the hardware, then you would be able to buy cheaper PCs from the get go. But this is not the case, OEM manufactures make money off the hardware and need to "pay" a licensing fee to software companies like Microsoft.

Like has already been stated; GAME machines make all of their money off GAMES. So they can sell their hardware at a loss. This makes them a better value for games, but that's it!

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Why are we even arguing about this, let Karim buy a game machine for his daily "computer" needs. :) I'm sure once he walks into GameCrazy, or another similar store and trys to find Office or a DVD authoring app for his brand new PS3, he'll relize that his only choice is games.

<]=)

yeah, I was going to let it lie until Karim said that the 360 would last 5-6 years. That kind of poor advice hurts everyone that believes it. I will be quiet too. Pity we can't preserve this thread and laugh at my predictions in 30 months. :) they are probably way too conservative. :) we may be so far beyond that that. It is so difficult predicting the future.

just think... someday we will be like the guys who worked on vaccuum tube computers, people looking back from nanotubes will wonder how we managed. :)

[neogin]

oh .. i got my desktop p4 2.4 ghz like .. 3-4 yrs ago .. i got it about $600 with dell 15 inch LCD too .. with geforce4 at that time .. normal price of this pc + LCD .. it would be 1000 something but .. it wouldn't be $2500 -,-'' and it was kinda .. top at that time ..

in that case .. to get a computer to use in a long run like u said .. u gotta know when to buy .. i bought it when it was kinda peak time of cpu tech ..

i think that the idea of .. the 360 would last 5-6 years .. i don't think so .. the 3.2 ghz is kinda .. too old for now .. it was released a year or 2 yrs already ?? should be ..

[SamuraiCatJB]

in that case .. to get a computer to use in a long run like u said .. u gotta know when to buy .. i bought it when it was kinda peak time of cpu tech ..


That's a fun subject I get asked a LOT. When should someone buy computer equipment. My usual response is "when you need it". Though if you have the time to wait, watch the market and choose, I ask a different question: "top of the line, or end of the line". 754 based AMDs are going dirt cheap because they are ending that line for top of the line chips, and extending them through Sempron line. If you don't mind catching 6 to 12 month old technology, and live without support, you can get decent computer chips mega-dirt-cheap when the line ends and they are dumping the market with remaining stock. They usually are moving R&D overhead on chips to the newer models, so you are closer to the production cost of the chip. There is still markup to cover all the other parts of production and handling, but you have much less markup on end-line production chips.

I have been moving "upward" towards the front of technology at home, but I still deliberately choose some of these lines because I know they are ending and are cheaper. The 939 chips were already out when I got my 754 AMD64, the price had just dropped on the 754 line, not super low, but no longer highest end pricing.

When you buy, and what you buy makes all the difference in pricing.

[JackAxe]

I usually buy at the end of the year, when the cash flow is plenty and I need my tax-write-offs. :) And since I know something new will be out by at least April, I'm not bothered when it happens.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

hey jack.... here's a chuckle... if you thought my laptop was a power hungry black hole for free electrons.... imagine this one: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23413

[JackAxe]

Behold the battery (http://www.physorg.com/news4081.html) that will give it more than 2 minutes of run-time. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

yup, that would bring it back up to at least an hour.... :p :p but it would be an impressive hour!! ;) :p

[JackAxe]

That's not exactly how I would want to spend my last hour of life, before dying of by radiation poisoning. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

That's not exactly how I would want to spend my last hour of life, before dying of by radiation poisoning. :p

<]=)

you'd rather get close to the she hulk to get your radiation? ;) :p

[JackAxe]

Naaaa, a crushed pelvis and radiation poisoning doesn't sound like fun. :)

<]=)

[neogin]

That's a fun subject I get asked a LOT. When should someone buy computer equipment. My usual response is "when you need it". Though if you have the time to wait, watch the market and choose, I ask a different question: "top of the line, or end of the line". 754 based AMDs are going dirt cheap because they are ending that line for top of the line chips, and extending them through Sempron line. If you don't mind catching 6 to 12 month old technology, and live without support, you can get decent computer chips mega-dirt-cheap when the line ends and they are dumping the market with remaining stock. They usually are moving R&D overhead on chips to the newer models, so you are closer to the production cost of the chip. There is still markup to cover all the other parts of production and handling, but you have much less markup on end-line production chips.

I have been moving "upward" towards the front of technology at home, but I still deliberately choose some of these lines because I know they are ending and are cheaper. The 939 chips were already out when I got my 754 AMD64, the price had just dropped on the 754 line, not super low, but no longer highest end pricing.

When you buy, and what you buy makes all the difference in pricing.

yea .. i agree with that too .. buy it when u need it .. but .. in my case .. i didn't need it .. i had already 2 PC that time .. i just wanted to get new one to replace the older ones :D .. but i think if u know when to buy .. it's a good thing tho .. your pc will get old slower ..

[zackepceo]

More delays at IBM as they ramp up their fabs for what could be the largest design run ever in the history of processing. All the new 970s are ready, but Apple isn't on the top of the list this time.

[JackAxe]

Who's getting them first?

Can you believe how much play this "old" Apple-switch-Intel thing got this time? I just want to slap the crap out of some of these peeps for being so freaking ignorant to why it is not a good idea no matter how skewed and "naive" their views are. :rolleyes:

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

hehehe, well, apple stocks went up... so I guess it worked. ;)

I am following the conflicting statements coming out of nVidia.... hehehehe nVidia announced the G70 would be 110nm, ATI smiled expecting to hit 90nm. But now some statements have led people to believe that all nV production will be 90nm, but if it is, how could they release G70 as 110?

I just wish they were bloody out... I want a new motherboard and a G70 powering the graphics. Since I want the motherboard soon, I don't want to wait on the graphics... *sigh* but I guess I will.

[JackAxe]

i hadn't even noticed that it went up, just checked my stock widget. :)

I would of thought GPUs were at 2nm by now, since they advance soooo quickly. So are they at 90nm, or 110nm?

I just want this massive white box to go away in Maya. It appears aroung my Hot Boxes sometimes after 4 hours, other times after an entire days work.
Behold my annoyance;
http://bainne.com/fun/30_inch/whitebox.png

I took this screen shot after installing Tiger, so Maya was the only App I had installed.

Anyways, it's graphic card related, so I figured this was a good thread to post in. It looks like the white is where the mask would be, any thoughts on why this is tormenting me? If it happened when I right-clicked to bring up other Hot Boxes, then there would be hell to pay. But it only happens after a while and only when pressing space, so It's only a slight bother. :)

You should learn how to program for OGL on the Mac and fix it for me. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

OpenGL is crossplatform, that part is easy. User interfaces are platform specific.... Tell you what. You get me the complete source code for Maya and I will find the bug. :p :p

as for the size.... one of the article writers reminded everyone that nVidia went as far as to ship prototype boards to game writers that had half the pipelines disabled so that ATI would not know the true design for the 6800. It worked, the design was leaked (even with NDA's in place), ATI through a party believing they had outdistanced nVidia again, and then when the 6800 was released it was twice as fast. So what the answer is? wait and see. nVidia could have tossed up a red-herring, or accidentally said too much. we don't know.

[JackAxe]

No excuses, send me an e-mail that fixes my white box. :) I don't care if that's not possible. :p

I just hope Nvidia still supports my lil AGP Pro bus. :(

I recall when NVidia intentionally dumbed down the performance of their GF2 cards via drivers to trick ATI. Then released the Detenator drivers, which doubled all of their cards performance, hence destroying ATI's newest offering.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

be careful what you ask for.... :p if you no longer see anything, the white box is fixed... :p

[JackAxe]

Are you implying that ye might be "borrowing" my screen? :eek:

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Are you implying that ye might be "borrowing" my screen? :eek:

<]=)

"borrow"?? I wouldn't dream of THAT.... there'd be a 20" dell left in trade....

[JackAxe]

:mad: Than... what were you thinking?. :p

*sigh* I'm going to have to downgrade to a 9x12 Wacom in order to use the new Paintbrush Stylus. :( Bigger screen, smaller Wacom. Yay. :( Poooooor mee.

<]=)

[JackAxe]

I don't want your Dell. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

I don't want your Dell. :p

<]=)

sure you do... just admit it... your eyes are growing huge and strained in front of that oversized monitor and you want to relax them with a normal sized display.... :p

[JackAxe]

Sure..... In that case... No. :p Besides, I have a my 15" TI-Book and 15" on my PC when the huge gets to me. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

here you go: http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=1605&cid=18&pg=3

dual 512 6800 single board solution. hehehhee

[SamuraiCatJB]

and *drum roll* The 150watt monster.... http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=3&id=1603

is your power supply up to it? ;)

NVIDIA plans on sticking it to ATI with G70 and offering widespread availability of their new GPU very soon. Manufacturers at the show have already indicated that the first shipments of G70 boards will be in their hands by the second week of June.

but if I were you, I wouldn't hold your breath... Now it is the wait to see, if/when ATI responds.

[JackAxe]

Nooo, support AGP, bad video cards makers. :(

Which one is a 150 wat thingy?

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

oooo... it was a sneak peak of the G70, three webpages had them, all three have been pulled..... :) I guess we wait until it is official, but one of the G70 previews (with pictures before it was pulled), came out and said 75 watt from PCIe (which I think is the most it can draw there), and 75watt from the extra PCIe card power adapter.

[JackAxe]

But now AGP. :( All I saw were mobos, I was confused. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

I am still AGP too... but not for long I hope.... I will go PCIe, dual core at same time.... I would like to go G70 at same time, but I don't know how long to wait....

[JackAxe]

For me, wait equals substantially less than $1K for each card. ;) I'll go PCI-E sli when the entire setup is less than just one card.

My G5 will be my main machine for at least 2 more years, I would like it go longer, so a 512 AGP card upgrade would be nice.
<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

no SLI for me... just single PCIe... I don't need to go "overboard" ;)

[JackAxe]

Aye. PCI-e for you, more VRAM for me. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

I am hoping for big upgrade, case, power supply, motherboard, lower latency memory, graphics card.

[zackepceo]

Hehe, Sam, when you're building that monster that would put my 3800+ to shame, you could offload those old crusty bits of your old computer to me.. :D

[SamuraiCatJB]

I have to GET a new computer first.... I need to mail the even older stuff anyhow... :) so much to do, so little time.

[JackAxe]

I would give you my older PC if I got a new one, but it's slower than your current one. And with this rendering thing, I neeeeeeed all the PCs I can get my grimy paws on.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=article&dId=776

(supposedly more G70 pictures) NDA's seem to be covering info, not pictures. So everyone who discusses bits or clock speeds (other than guessing from looking at pictures) is getting pulled. If the first rumors on bits is true, you could get massive help for your renderings.

[JackAxe]

Cool pics. But do you ever get the feeling you'er just looking at the same boards over and over? This could easilly be a 5800. :)

I'm curious about how the quality of the G70s graphic output. If Sony didn't fudge with its footage, then this card will give Nvidia a massive visual gain over ATI. ATI's new chip for the X360, really doesn't look that impressive. The games they demoed on it really don't look much bettter than anything I've already seen and played. My EG magazine only backs this up for me, since all the images of the X360 games they showed were pixelated and didn't look any better then any other 3D game. But this could be just a difference of raw talent in Sony's favor.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Well, someone has started a countdown.... Leadtek and Gainward, 8 days and counting to the greatest graphics experience.
http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/default.asp
http://www.gainward.de/new/main.html

[JackAxe]

Bleh. Why should I care about all that power, when my lil portable can produce graphics as amazing as this. (http://www.fire-emblem.com/) . :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

yeah, but you have to brush it... you give me the 3D vertices and I will draw it in realtime.

[JackAxe]

Each pixel could be animated in an array real time. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

True. In fact the latest generation of graphics card would do that better... one 24bit texture for color, one 128bit or 256bit texture for vertex offset, vertex shader 3.0 to manipulate the vertex texture, and viola! instant animation. But you would need a G70 to do it. :p

[JackAxe]

I'll eventulaly upgrade my video card, but probably not for at least a year. So maybe the G99 will be out? :)

I've been thinking about overclocking my 9500 Pro to a 9700, but this hasn't been a priority, since I play Warcraft on my Macs and most other games on my DS and GameCube now days.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

G80 hopefully. :D

if you overclock, remember to be cool about it. :)

[JackAxe]

You think small, I want a G99. :p

I've been careful, tis why I haven't done it. It's not worth it I guess. I'll just save my pennies for a G101. :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

if you are going to overclock, a $30 cooler and $7 arctic silver is always a good idea.
http://www.arctic-cooling.com/vga2.php?idx=36
http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm

just from the heat savings of the two combined you could overclock to 9700 and stay at the same temp you are at right now.

[JackAxe]

Thanks, I have the artic silver stuff, but not the fan. Just more things for me to do, so that I can ocuppy me brain with things besides boredom.

The sad part, is that a 9700 Pro is only $110 on pricewatch, my 9500 Pro is listed for $106.

Holy pooo, a 6800 Ultra 512 PCI-E is listed for $753!!! :eek:

<]=)

[jjesusfreak01]

Thanks, I have the artic silver stuff, but not the fan. Just more things for me to do, so that I can ocuppy me brain with things besides boredom.

The sad part, is that a 9700 Pro is only $110 on pricewatch, my 9500 Pro is listed for $106.

Holy pooo, a 6800 Ultra 512 PCI-E is listed for $753!!! :eek:

<]=)
You saying "holy pooo" with the Smeagol avatar just looks really funny. Im just imagining Smeago saying "holy pooo"!

[SamuraiCatJB]

Thanks, I have the artic silver stuff, but not the fan. Just more things for me to do, so that I can ocuppy me brain with things besides boredom.

The sad part, is that a 9700 Pro is only $110 on pricewatch, my 9500 Pro is listed for $106.

Holy pooo, a 6800 Ultra 512 PCI-E is listed for $753!!! :eek:

<]=)

Just imagine what the release of the 7800GTX 512 PCI-e will be.... :eek:

[SamuraiCatJB]

You saying "holy pooo" with the Smeagol avatar just looks really funny. Im just imagining Smeago saying "holy pooo"!

stretch the y out and it sounds almost reasonable.... ;)

[JackAxe]

You saying "holy pooo" with the Smeagol avatar just looks really funny. Im just imagining Smeago saying "holy pooo"!

He makes me laugh. The expression on his face kind of fits how I felt after the Intel-Apple thing happened. :)

<]=)

[JackAxe]

Just imagine what the release of the 7800GTX 512 PCI-e will be.... :eek:

I'll take two for $10k Bob. :) Imagine how epesive the QuadroFX 5500 will be..... I think I'll need to take out a second mortgage. =P

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Just imagine how much a QuadroFX 5500 SLI single board would be (dual GPU)... it never ends.... nVidia could pay off the national debt with the sale of one board....

[JackAxe]

Of course their one customer would be our goverment spending more money it doesn't have.

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

yes, but as long as I was the buyer.... :p

[SamuraiCatJB]

New Graphics Cards == New Demos.... A sneek peek of nVidia's latest: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23959

Dawn, Dusk, Nalu.
Luna... hmmmm....

[JackAxe]

Ahhhh, I was hoping ot seee the fat biker boy also. :( Stupid article!!!

Check out this image, it's from the G101 I made up;
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/men/gallery.jsp?floc=g-red11&gname=red&pi=5&grurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchannels.netscape.com%2Fns%2Fmen%2Fphotoguide.jsp&photo=11&xad=true

It's double the power of a G70. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=1&id=1640

Hardware zone has a great review of the 512MB Geforce 6800 Ultra. They also talk about the difficulties with saying this is too much, etc. It is not that 512MB is too much ever, that is not true. It will eventually be needed, but right now it will only run as an equal card to the 256MB of the same series.

I would say it would be equivalent to say buying a hydrogen based fuel cell car with a gasoline engine (the hydrogen hybrids). You use only half the vehicle the gasoline engine, because there are no hydrogen production centers. The hydrogen portion never gets as you wait for hydrogen production centers to arrive. You know it will eventually be nice, because you want to believe that. You might pay twice the cost of a gas/electric hybrid, but you hope someday to use the vehicle fully. But in the end, when the fuel is available, such hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will cost significantly less and no longer be experimental. You could use it every day and for everything but you, but it would cost much less later.

So with the Ultra, you could spend $900 and it will look no different than a 256MB card for 6 months to a year, it will not show you any benefit for that extra money until more games come out. Or you could buy a 256mb card, put the rest in savings (yeah I have the same problem, but still you "could"), and then buy a better card later and get more benefit from the later technology or lower prices on the Ultra 512mb. :)

[Karim]

Why would one buy a 6800 Ultra for longevity with G70 right on its heels?

[JackAxe]

Because we bought them last year, when nothing was on its heels. :p

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Why would one buy a 6800 Ultra for longevity with G70 right on its heels?


because it is new, because it is expensive. :)

The G70 will start at 256Mb also, and 512Mb will come later... :)

I'm holding out for the G70.

but I may have to get the 512Mb 6800 before august if they don't release a 512Mb G70 by then. I have a requirement that needs the memory at work....

[SamuraiCatJB]

7800gtx is available now, launch day and purchase day. Newegg even shows stock for sale. $600 for 50% to 100% speed increase on the average.
http://hothardware.com/viewarticle.cfm?articleid=697&cid=2

[JackAxe]

Oh pleeeeeeaze be released in AGP, or at least offer me an updated 6800U with 512. (I don't want it for games.) :)

<]=)

[Reggie]

7800gtx is available now, launch day and purchase day. Newegg even shows stock for sale. $600 for 50% to 100% speed increase on the average.
http://hothardware.com/viewarticle.cfm?articleid=697&cid=2

Here's a great bundle of the 7800GTX:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=323635

* Bundled with 2 Full Retail Games : Prince of Persia Warrior Within & Splinter Cell Chaos Theory
* Bundled with 3 ULEAD Full Video Editing Software Bundle : Video Studio 8 SE, DVD Factory 3 SE, & Cool 3D
* Bundled with PowerDVD, Muvee autoProducer3, WinFox II, & Cult 3D

[Karim]

Why not wait to see how R520 turns out?

[JackAxe]

Buy why would we only want 24-bits? :)

<]=)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Why not wait to see how R520 turns out?


Like Jack says... not for 24bit per color. 96bit color. Lucas Standard is 128bit color (32bit per component), and even if ATI "ties" nVidia for speed, given that nVidia is a pure 128bit color solution, it's still better. One reason I am getting the 64x2 is so that I can do SMP at home. I am strictly dual processor at work, though we experimented with the hyperthreads, cutting a processor in half does not help. So if I were just playing games I would not get a 64x2, if I were just playing games, I "might" buy ATI. But because I am in the graphics business, ATI is a really bad choice.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Plus nVidia is here, armed with an "underclocked" graphics card (all set to bring out more power against ATI), and ATI has had to delay again. "maybe" august... but definately "eventually", probably. ;)

“In the case of the R520 we have seen some delay. Particularly, we need to deal with a new technology at the high-end. It’s a combination of both architectural and [process] technology bring up. We have this well under control now. As Patrick described, we’ve taken a cautious position to not to consider revenues in our Q4 for our 90nm line,” said David Orton, the CEO of ATI.

“We have prepared to bring a full-range of 90nm GPUs to the market this Fall,” Mr. Orton added.

[SamuraiCatJB]

First you were all like "whoa", and we were like "whoa", and you were like "whoa..."

watercooled 7800gtx whoa..... http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24377

[Karim]

Whoa, lol. It seems a bit counter-intuitive to pay a lot for overclocking (i.e. cooling), though (not that there were any prices shown)?

[SamuraiCatJB]

I think they released the 6800 watercooled at $1200 and it was a $500 card.

Actually it is more important to realize that the 7800GTX overclocked or SLI are both CPU bound. But then if you are buying an overclocked GPU, chances are you have already overclocked the CPU.

[zackepceo]

I think I'll stick with my GeForce 6600 for now.. But the next generation of cards will be niiice. I can't see them doing anything but double precision 32-bit or 48-bit (yeah, my 48-bit dream is still alive...)

[SamuraiCatJB]

that's okay, my 64bit dream is still a dream....