1src Forums - Are ARM units really that fast?

LanMan

03-20-2003, 05:29 PM

Are the OS5 ARM units really that much faster that the 66Mhz VZ units? I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade to a VZ now, or wait to upgrade to an OS5 unit a little later. So what do you think? Are ARM's worth the wait?

Tixx

03-20-2003, 05:36 PM

My NX is quite speedy. Maybe you can go to one of the stores and test them yourself.

chazzz

03-20-2003, 05:39 PM

I'd rather wait a bit and upgrade to the newer standard than upgrade now and already be more behind than usual.

rldunn

03-20-2003, 05:55 PM

They really are that fast. It's amazing how fast things run, especially sorts and searches.

Eric S

03-20-2003, 05:59 PM

Tank Pilot is so fast that you stand no chance against the AI tanks. Ruined a fun game for me :)

That's why I look at people funny when they insist that they need a Clie running at 300 or 400 Mhz. I don't wait on my NX-60.

parmesian

03-20-2003, 06:02 PM

my nx (w/arm) is so much faster than my old nr (66Mhz VZ) that it amazed me. for example, mapopolis redraws used to take a while on my nr (mainly because i have 8mb of maps on it) but on my nx it is practically instantaneous. wait a while for the arm.

rldunn

03-20-2003, 07:07 PM

Another example is pics in something like AcidImage. I was frustrated viewing JPGs with my NR and quit putting new ones now, but even 640x480 images load instantly and 3MP ones load in about 5 seconds on the NX.

JackAxe

03-20-2003, 07:16 PM

Tank Pilot was not optimized with Armlets, so it runs faster on a 66 mhz VZ. =P

Hold off for the new PXA255 Clie's. These will be much faster then the current XScales even at the same clock speed. They will also emulate OS4 apps faster then a 66 VZ runs them. The PXA255 was designed to fix current performance limitations with the PXA250. All PPC devices are currently being switched to this CPU.

When apps on the Clie' become more robust like PPC apps, the current OS5 Clie's will hit a performance wall.

You'll also need one of SONY's OS5+ devices if you want to use the MSPro.

The screens are also brighter on the newer devices.

<]=)

jimroad

03-20-2003, 07:26 PM

All my maps and Mapopolis are loaded on MS and it takes 6-7 seconds to display the map @66. Try the same thing @ 200! Yes, it makes a big difference. I'm happy with my 665 and it's speed but I sure as heck wouldn't mind 200.

Eric S

03-20-2003, 07:28 PM

JackAxe, don't know about that. Tank Pilot is running much more than twice as fast as it does on my 33Mhz PDAs. Some apps run faster on the NX even if they aren't ARMlet optimized. Not all do, I'll grant you that.

Narniahopper

03-20-2003, 07:33 PM

Ummm, my NR was fast, but not NZ fast. :)

iebnn

03-20-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Eric S
Tank Pilot is so fast that you stand no chance against the AI tanks. Ruined a fun game for me :)

That's why I look at people funny when they insist that they need a Clie running at 300 or 400 Mhz. I don't wait on my NX-60.

You don't wait in the applications you use.... but a 400mhz cpu in a clie would allow developers to make new applications that need the speed (multimedia, games, etc). That's like saying "I don't need anything more than a pentium 133mhz, wordpad opens fast enough for me."

JackAxe

03-20-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Eric S
JackAxe, don't know about that. Tank Pilot is running much more than twice as fast as it does on my 33Mhz PDAs. Some apps run faster on the NX even if they aren't ARMlet optimized. Not all do, I'll grant you that.

A 66 runs Tank Pilot way faster then a 33. Truly more then twice as fast. Overall the current XScale emulates OS4 apps slower then a 66 Super VZ. When Tank Pilot is updated with Armlets it will definately run faster then a 66, even at hi-rez.

<]=P

jamesj1k

03-20-2003, 08:05 PM

Comparison on 4mb map on mapopolis:

dragonball Z 33Mhz - 9 seconds
Z 66mhz - 4 seconds
ARM 200Mhz - instantenous

James

JackAxe

03-20-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by jamesj1k
Comparison on 4mb map on mapopolis:

dragonball Z 33Mhz - 9 seconds
Z 66mhz - 4 seconds
ARM 200Mhz - instantenous

James

I'm not comparing Mapopolis, nor has it been part of my previous comments. It's an OS5 app, so of course it runs faster on an Arm then any Dragonball. I'm comparing non-optimized apps (Tank Pilot), which run faster on a 66.

<]=/

rxmedicine

03-20-2003, 08:34 PM

my comparison...
lexicomp a drug guide on my:

clie 610 with 33mhz took 37 seconds
clie nx70 with 200 mhz took 2.5 seconds

that's what i call awesome...37 seconds is a long time when waiting for an app to load...especially when you switch out of that program and have to come back....

rldunn

03-20-2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by JackAxe

I'm not comparing Mapopolis, nor has it been part of my previous comments. It's an OS5 app, so of course it runs faster on an Arm then any Dragonball. I'm comparing non-optimized apps (Tank Pilot), which run faster on a 66.

<]=/ I have plenty of non-optimized apps, and I haven't noticed ANY of them that run SLOWER on the NX. Maybe equally as fast for some, but not slower. And to be honest, I can't even think of one that ran equally as fast.

Jeffry

03-20-2003, 10:18 PM

I'll switch once Palm OS5 devices don't go to the 4digit magic number (in canadian $$$).

JwY

03-20-2003, 10:57 PM

i agree to that.

vansouza

03-20-2003, 11:09 PM

Too fast.

stronggeek

03-21-2003, 12:14 AM

My nx is way faster than my nr was. Much faster than I thought it would be!

cbulock

03-21-2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by JackAxe

I'm not comparing Mapopolis, nor has it been part of my previous comments. It's an OS5 app, so of course it runs faster on an Arm then any Dragonball. I'm comparing non-optimized apps (Tank Pilot), which run faster on a 66.

<]=/

I'm almost certain that Mapopolis doesn't use armlets to speed the app up. Actually, I think there are only a couple of apps that use them. Acid Image does, I think Splash Photo does. MT3D does I believe. But thats about it. I might have missed an app or two. (There are some benchmarks that use them, yCPUBench for example).

JackAxe

03-21-2003, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by cbulock

I'm almost certain that Mapopolis doesn't use armlets to speed the app up. Actually, I think there are only a couple of apps that use them. Acid Image does, I think Splash Photo does. MT3D does I believe. But thats about it. I might have missed an app or two. (There are some benchmarks that use them, yCPUBench for example).

I got this from;
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4777

"Check out Kinoma Player, Mapopolis, SplashPhoto for some great examples of apps that take advantage of the ARM while still being able to run on 68K devices."

Just for reference, Mapopolis is also instant on my PPC. But it looks nicer at 320x480.

<]=P

iebnn

03-21-2003, 06:06 AM

MT3D is around 99% ARMlets.

LanMan

03-21-2003, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the great input!! That's why I hang around here. I am on a budget (think new baby), and I was seriously thinking about the T665 @ $230. However, I may be able to hold off for a while to see where the ARM prices fall, and I do mean FALL. I will have trouble pitching $400 at a unit right now, but maybe $200-$300 if it's a real upgrade to my T415. The T415 is really dogging down with some of my apps that do a number of calculations.

So do you think that we will see any Sony OS5 units in the $200-$300 range soon?

Alistar

03-21-2003, 09:13 AM

Seeing as we are talking speed here. I have about 40 apps on my NX and memstick. When I first got my NX it was quite fast, but now everything seems to have slowed down. Especially the scrolling in the built in launcher. It takes about 1.5 secs to scroll from one object to the other and it is choppy when doing so. All my benchmark apps say the same now as when I first got it so any ideas.

vansouza

03-21-2003, 09:56 AM

When I notice a slow down, or just feel like it, I make about three backups and do a Hard Reset and reinstall fresh... I would not have to do this if I would just remember to do a backup BEFORE I do a new install ... I think it's the little bits that remain are the issue... not a scientific observation ...

rldunn

03-21-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by LanMan
So do you think that we will see any Sony OS5 units in the $200-$300 range soon? Well, the TG50 is listed at $400, so I would expect to see some retailers in a month or so start pushing prices down to the mid $300 level, and probably around $300 in 2-3 months. And it appears to be a great PDA!! So you have some hope!!

wellsjs

03-21-2003, 10:01 AM

One thing to keep in mind when talking 66MHz, 200, 300, 400, etc. is that once you get above the motherboard bus speed you get deminishing returns on faster CPUs. The NZ90 "specifications" does not even detail the motherboard, but last I heard, PDA motherboards are in the 100 - 200 MHz bus speed range.

That's why you notice a significant difference between the 66MHz T665C and the NX or NZ, but very little difference between 200 and a 400 MHz CPU.

It's the same game with desktop/laptop systems. They market the CPU speeds to death, while your bus and memory speeds are the "bottlenecks" for processing data. A while back I had my 1.33 GHz CPU fry and replaced it with a 1.7 Ghz one. That's a 28% increase in CPU speed and I saw zero difference in my desktop's performance. My motherboard speed is 200 MHz. The latest MBs are touting 533 MHz buses (drool, drool :D ), but even with those, you will hardly notice the difference between a 2 Gig and a 3 Gig CPU. So why pay the difference. Spend the extra money on a better motherboard and faster memory, not the fastest CPU on the market.

Eric S

03-21-2003, 10:43 AM

JackAxe, I can't find anything that says Mapopolis is ARM-optimized, just OS5 compatible. Besides there are non-ARM benchmarks in which the NX beats 66Mhz VZ PDAs. It doesn't do it in all benchmarks, because some programs run slower. It isn't the case that an ARM runs at the same speed as an XX Mhz VZ PDA. sometimes the XX will be 45, sometimes it will be over 100, depending on the application. In rare cases, it will be well outside this range. There are a few cases of programs running 10 times faster without any use of ARMlets.

In general, the 200Mhz XScale outruns 66Mhz VZ even in a68k code.

rldunn

03-21-2003, 11:10 AM

From the link he gave earlier, the article says:For those developers who wish to take advantage of some of that raw ARM horsepower, it's certainly possible to do so. Check out Kinoma Player, Mapopolis, SplashPhoto for some great examples of apps that take advantage of the ARM while still being able to run on 68K devices.

Andyvan

03-21-2003, 11:47 AM

I ran some benchmarks on a TG50 a few days ago. They're faster than my N610, but not as much as expected. I suspect this is due to emulation.

However, try running the Speed test in LCD Analyzer. The 16 bit test runs in 8 seconds! It's 49 on my 33 MHz N610.

That was *impressive*.

-- Andy

LanMan

03-21-2003, 12:45 PM

Do you OS5 users miss your hacks and DA's? Or are there enough bells & whistles to OS5 that you don't care?

rldunn

03-21-2003, 01:23 PM

All of the DAs I use still work on OS5. I really thought I would miss my hacks, but programmers are clever enough that most have been either updated or replaced by something else.

McPhling is now a stand-alone app. OKey is kind of like a cross between PageDownHack and PowerJog. DateBk5 added capability to remove underlines, and if you want that in other apps as well, there's a trick using Colorize (or similar) that can take the place of NoLinesHack or ClearHack. Mi: D is now a stand-alone app. The NX has the clock always on the status bar, so that eliminated the need for ClockPop, and you can click on the sound icon in the status bar to turn off all sound or change various sound settings, so you don't really need VolumeDA or SilenceHack. The last two wouldn't apply to the TG50, but I'm sure someone will come up with a solution there.

So, all in all, I haven't missed them.

iebnn

03-21-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Alistar
Seeing as we are talking speed here. I have about 40 apps on my NX and memstick. When I first got my NX it was quite fast, but now everything seems to have slowed down. Especially the scrolling in the built in launcher. It takes about 1.5 secs to scroll from one object to the other and it is choppy when doing so. All my benchmark apps say the same now as when I first got it so any ideas.

Running certain hack-like applications or something like tealmaster will slow down your device.

Eric S

03-21-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by LanMan

So do you think that we will see any Sony OS5 units in the $200-$300 range soon?

There's not a TECHNICAL reason you won't see it, as the price of the ARM CPUs isn't much higher, and in some cases, is lower, than the 68K-based Dragonballs, depending on the speed and amount of functionality built into the chip.

However, ARM/PalmOS5 is new enough that most PDA manufacturers are reserving it for their high end as a value-added feature. I expect to see the ARM CPUs in most new announcements by the end of the year, particularly if PalmOS6 hits at about Christmas as predicted.