1src Forums - I have a 512 Memory Stick Pro

n2ifp

03-18-2003, 07:48 PM

I suppose there is a reason why Sony says it needs a driver. I do not understand why the driver hasn't been released yet. Is it a typical scenario where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing?

jedix

03-18-2003, 07:52 PM

I hope the driver comes out soon, b/c I want to go buy a 512!

YTTAN

03-18-2003, 09:17 PM

Me too. If without the driver, i do not need so much space for my 20 programs and 500+ photos(splashphoto- about 50kb per image).

My major memory usage are MP3s and videos.

What about vioce recording? Is it working with 512Mb ms Pro?

reggae

03-18-2003, 09:31 PM

Wow... I feel bad that you spent so much money and it's not working. I have to say though this is typical of our eagerness for more space.

On this forum, I've seen where people are willing to beta drivers for a CF from an unknown with no disclosure on the development methods. Hack? Crack? Or API?

Also, we were told from the beginning that our clies would need a driver for MS Pro. I think the new sticks even have/use a different bus... you know? ...more contacts/leads. If this is the case, it would explain why you're having problems with streaming vs. access.

Move with caution everyone. These are hard times for industry and everyone is looking to get our money wether they've earned it or not. ...even SONY.

Denny

03-18-2003, 11:26 PM

Is it possible that the problem iw with the Magic Gate technology interfering with unprotected MP3s? Does your 512 MS say Magic Gate? Is it white or blue?

Denny

03-18-2003, 11:28 PM

Another thought hits me. Could the difficulty be with files that require faster throughtput? This might explain why movies and MP3s don't play but pictures and programs do.

YTTAN

03-18-2003, 11:33 PM

Just for your info, Ms pro is faster than normal MS. I don't think that is the reason.

BClie2k

03-19-2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by YTTAN
Just for your info, Ms pro is faster than normal MS. I don't think that is the reason.

Yitan, why don't you ask someone to give you a MS Pro so you can test it and tell us what happened in your Clie?

Al

Unregistered

03-19-2003, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Denny
Is it possible that the problem iw with the Magic Gate technology interfering with unprotected MP3s? Does your 512 MS say Magic Gate? Is it white or blue?

All MS Pros are MagicGate, however the compatibility note on Sony's site does say that the MagicGate functions do not work on the Clies. This plus the lack of the software update might be contributing to the problem.

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 01:14 AM

BClie2k, why don't you give me a MS Pro so i can test it and tell other what happened in my Clie?

giorgos_gs

03-19-2003, 01:19 AM

Magic Gate technology don't let movies or mp3 work if they are unprotected.

Please tell us if its MSPro is faster and how much faster is it?

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 01:32 AM

I saw at other forum that Sony say software patch for NX70 will be out at the end of this month to solve the movies and mp3 problem.

Pls see below as stated in Sony catalog from IT Show 2003 Singapore:

MSPro transfer speed - 160Mbps or 20 MB/sec (Theoretical Maximum)

MS transfer speed - 19.6Mbps or 2.45MB/sec (MAX)

patrickl

03-19-2003, 03:28 AM

Could someone try VFSMark (http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=34400) on a MS Pro? I wonder what kind of speed improvements it will give.

BClie2k

03-19-2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by YTTAN
BClie2k, why don't you give me a MS Pro so i can test it and tell other what happened in my Clie?

Which one do you want to test the 256TB or 512TB?

Al

n2ifp

03-19-2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by giorgos_gs
Magic Gate technology don't let movies or mp3 work if they are unprotected.

Please tell us if its MSPro is faster and how much faster is it?

Okay, then explain why they work for me? I have a 128mb MG stick and the unprotected mp3's work just fine. Magic Gate was for ATRAC3 format only. Otherwise the MG worked exactly like the others.

Reading Sony's site doesn't promise faster speeds, unless the device has native MS Pro support and needs the driver. Everyone is jumping the gun here.

Unregistered

03-19-2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by n2ifp

Okay, then explain why they work for me? I have a 128mb MG stick and the unprotected mp3's work just fine. Magic Gate was for ATRAC3 format only. Otherwise the MG worked exactly like the others.

Reading Sony's site doesn't promise faster speeds, unless the device has native MS Pro support and needs the driver. Everyone is jumping the gun here.

What are you guys talking about.. Magic gate sticks have always let you play unprotected MP3´s aswell??

The only difference is that with the purple sticks you can not play protected ATRAC3 files.

So what am I missing???

n2ifp

03-19-2003, 07:39 AM

Nothing really

AndySocial

03-19-2003, 08:36 AM

Where exactly do you find the MS Pro sticks on Sonystyle? Under the "Magic Stick Media" option all I found were MS, MG-MS, and MS-Select.

markandjenn

03-19-2003, 09:15 AM

Here is the link:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start;sid=pv7GaT-o-pfGaAHQIcjMYnCnevb6KCbgox8=?Dept=acc&CatalogCategoryID=XFsKC0%2eNCNMAAAD0sBpglwJJ

Unregistered

03-19-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by markandjenn
Here is the link:

SonyStyle (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start;sid=pv7GaT-o-pfGaAHQIcjMYnCnevb6KCbgox8=?Dept=acc&CatalogCategoryID=XFsKC0%2eNCNMAAAD0sBpglwJJ)

Cool, thanks. The Memory Stick link under PDA Accessories doesn't redirect to the same inventory listing, for whatever magical reason.

khyasad

03-19-2003, 11:07 AM

I was going to post this on the other (UK) thread, but I'll post it here ...

Firstly, you do NOT get 256mb, but 237mb ! 19mb used up for what, you may ask ? Have no idea but I will inspect the disk closely a little later on ...

What works and what doesn't ...

Works
--------

* Installing apps and running them (installed FlashEnable, VeriChat, LightNZip, PocketLink v2.55, Online) all working correctly

* Viewing jpgs stored by Splashphoto (*very* quick response in thumbnail mode)

* AcidImage can view images, albeit a little slower than Splashphoto but faster than normal MS.

* Viewing iSilo docs (docs are 68mb, 9mb, 10mb 7mb). The 68mb docs was displayed *fantastically* fast.

* Using Clie Camera to take pictures

* Voice Recorder works taking voice memos (recorded for 15mins)

What DOESN'T work
-------------------------

* Listening to MP3s

* Viewing MQV files created by ImageConverter

* When using the camera (Movie Recorder), it comes back with a Multimedia error and a soft reset is required

Running the VFSMark test require me to empty the card and start again so will do that in a mo ...

Will post in a few mins ...

khyasad

03-19-2003, 11:30 AM

Here are the VFSMark results :

VFSMark Results

File Create: 114%
File Delete: 109%
File Write: 20%
File Read: 175%
File Seek: 200%
DB Export: 102%
DB Import: 315%
Record Access: 344%
Resource Access: 314%

VFSMark: 188

On a normal blue 128mb MS, the results are :

VFSMark Results

File Create: 110%
File Delete: 60%
File Write: 27%
File Read: 125%
File Seek: 163%
DB Export: 80%
DB Import: 215%
Record Access: 253%
Resource Access: 223%

VFSMark: 139

Please remember everyone all this testing has been done with no drivers installed (hell, they haven't been released yet). Once they become available, I will do this all again and repost the results.

cbulock

03-19-2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by khyasad
Firstly, you do NOT get 256mb, but 237mb ! 19mb used up for what, you may ask ? Have no idea but I will inspect the disk closely a little later on ...

Thats normal of any type of storage medium. I would be worried about that missing space.

MikeLang

03-19-2003, 11:38 AM

You said you saw 237 MB free. I assume this is a big partition, right? Not that the one that you have to flip a switch to select each 128 MB individually?
Thanks.
-Mike-

khyasad

03-19-2003, 11:44 AM

That's correct ... This is the 256mb MS Pro and *NOT* the MS Select where you have to flip a switch ...

khyasad

03-19-2003, 12:21 PM

Testing continues ...

DocumentsToGo doesn't recognise the card ...

Incidently, I'm syncing with the speaker cradle as well as my brando mini-sync cable and the speaker cradle is much faster ... Going to have to look at the specs to see if it's USB2 ...

I've formatted the MS Pro with the NX70 and it was able to get back one mb making it a total of 238mb ...

On the packing at the back it says only 220mb is usable ... I mean, what a thing to say ! You buy a 256mb MS and you are told only 220 is the likely amount you can use ...

reggae

03-19-2003, 12:32 PM

in khyasads results, i don't see where the transfer speeds made ANY difference. the differences i DO see seem to be speed increases from using larger storage mediums in general... in this case shorter paths between logic gates, etc. if this driver doesn't activate some hidden or unused bus within our clies, i don't imagine we're gonna see much more improvement.

where am i going with this? if there's no extra bandwidth in our clies to utilize the extra bandwidth in those new memsticks, we will be better off with a CF driver than with an MS Pro driver.

khyasad

03-19-2003, 02:19 PM

Here is another test ...

I have a 128mb memory stivck named 128NX70-1. On there I have my main apps that I need constantly (not core apps -- they live in internal RAM and flash memory).

I made a backup from the memory stick to my PC using MS Import, a total of 112mbs.

I then replaced 128NX70-1 with the 256MB (I named it 256NX70-1).

I then copied the files from the PC to 256NX70-1 and it is *slow* ... Not very slow but slower than the blue 128NX70-1 ...

Hmmm ... more test results coming up ....

deadlyfoez

03-19-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by khyasad
Testing continues ...

On the packing at the back it says only 220mb is usable ... I mean, what a thing to say ! You buy a 256mb MS and you are told only 220 is the likely amount you can use ...

I'm not no computer genius, but lets say you have a 1 gb hardrive on your computer, generally only about 975 mb are usable due to needing the space to write out the FAT, wouldn't it be basically the same with the MS's??

n2ifp

03-19-2003, 06:31 PM

Basically as 1mb = 1,000,000 bytes

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

n2ifp

03-19-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by reggae
in khyasads results, i don't see where the transfer speeds made ANY difference. the differences i DO see seem to be speed increases from using larger storage mediums in general... in this case shorter paths between logic gates, etc. if this driver doesn't activate some hidden or unused bus within our clies, i don't imagine we're gonna see much more improvement.

where am i going with this? if there's no extra bandwidth in our clies to utilize the extra bandwidth in those new memsticks, we will be better off with a CF driver than with an MS Pro driver.

Somewhere on Sony's web site, it agrees with you! Only devices with native MS Pro support will achieve the faster speeds. Additionally. Sony says any device that needs to use the software driver will not see any increase in speed. At least we won't lose anything by going to the bigger stick.

pghart

03-19-2003, 07:11 PM

Basically all of the space wasted on a drive is based on the block size of the drive.

MS is a drive that uses FAT which uses 16K blocks. So if you have a 4K file, it will take 16K to store it. If you have a 17K File it will take 32K.

Hope that helps

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 07:16 PM

Hi deadlyfoez, below message is from the link http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html given by n2ifp.

" Then data storage for gigabytes, and even terabytes, became practical, and the storage devices were not constructed on binary trees, which meant that, for many practical purposes, binary arithmetic was less convenient than decimal arithmetic. The result is that today "everybody" does not "know" what a megabyte is. When discussing computer memory, most manufacturers use megabyte to mean 220 = 1 048 576 bytes, but the manufacturers of computer storage devices usually use the term to mean 1 000 000 bytes."

"And if two definitions of the megabyte are not enough, a third megabyte of 1 024 000 bytes is the megabyte used to format the familiar 90 mm (3 1/2 inch), "1.44 MB" diskette."

I got the calculation as shown below:

since 1 megabyte = 1 048576 bytes
use 1000000/1048576= 0.953
Use 1 gb x 0.953/1024000000=975.8 MB!!--> is this the same with your case?

kkerruish

03-19-2003, 07:50 PM

All -

When any storage medium is advertised, as explained above, they use different methods to determine what a megabyte is, or even a gigabyte.

However, what you're seeing is the space taken by the file system itself...most storage mediums advertise their 'raw' capacities...and then the actual amount of useable storage space is determined by the file system used.

This is the same on floppies, hard drives, CF cards, Memory Sticks, SD cards, etc, etc, etc...

Take a look at a freshly formatted 128mb memory stick, you'll see the loss incurred there.

Ken

kkerruish

03-19-2003, 08:00 PM

Quick question -

Do you have any other memory stick devices - like a sony digital camera?

I'd be really interested in knowing if the larger Memstick pros work in the older cameras, they just don't have the faster access times...

Any info would be helpful!

Thanks!

Ken

deadlyfoez

03-19-2003, 08:10 PM

I have a sony cybershot. I just got it six months ago and it had just come out. Sony have said that there is only one camera (unsure whether it was a camera or a video cam) that will support the new MS pros.

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 08:14 PM

Sound logical... or maybe other reason..

reggae

03-19-2003, 09:01 PM

thanks for the post larry. saved me from looking it up.

so because of the bus speed for MS and bus speed for CF is set (hardwired) on our NX's and NZ's we'll never realize the potential of MSPro. which means ALL of the people preaching for weeks that MSPro was gonna be superior to a CF driver are in for a HUGE disappointment. think how long it takes to copy 128MB of memstick now and how long it'll take once we toss in a 1GB stick... then add file fragmentation (no defragging) and you have an inferior product for more money.

i think i'm gonna have to change my sig and copy from someone else...

give me cf drivers or gimme back my jornada!!!!!

kkerruish

03-19-2003, 10:11 PM

Reggae -

Even with the lower speed, the ability to simply access 1gb on a memory stick will be worth the cost for me...

I can defrag it using Windows...but to carry several states of maps, 600-700mb worth of MP3s and still be able to take pictures, or transfer files to/from the office...without adding to the size or weight of the NZ...that's worth some cash...:)

NakMan

03-19-2003, 10:18 PM

kkerruish,

I agree. My CF slot is always occupied with my WiFi card so a CF memory driver does nothing for me.

NakMan

TLRX4

03-19-2003, 10:25 PM

Are Pro sticks ever going to be compatable with a peg-t665c?
If not why?

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 10:46 PM

kkerruish, NakMan

I agree about 1Gb mspro but cf slot driver we still need it as not all people really need the wifi. We might need bluetooth as well as for other purpose too. For example, recently Sony had announce that they will come out one CF adapter for MS DUO too.

Further more people will tend to be more desirous or eager to have more memory space. 2GB(MS pro+ CF flash) is better than 1GB.

YTTAN

03-19-2003, 10:54 PM

deadlyfoez,

I have a Sony 5MB pixel Digital camera too since last May(model F707). Sony have said only F717 Digital camera that will support the new MS pros. I was also a victim too for this MS Pro.

cbulock

03-20-2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by pghart
Basically all of the space wasted on a drive is based on the block size of the drive.

MS is a drive that uses FAT which uses 16K blocks. So if you have a 4K file, it will take 16K to store it. If you have a 17K File it will take 32K.

Hope that helps

Though it true that space is lost due to this, this is different from what is being refered to.

But YTTAN got it completely right. It all has to do with different definitions of data sizes.

What you are refering to is called cluster slack, and this will give you even more wasted space on top of the space that is already lost to being with. There is no way to report the amount of space lost from cluster slack on an empty disk (or card) because it is dependent on the sizes of files on the card. If you have 100 files that are 1K in size and the cluster size is 16K, then you will have 150K of lost space. But if you have a single 120MB file, the most space you could lose would be 16K and only if the end of the file doesn't fill the last cluster. As you can see, there must be files on the card first to see how much space is lost from this.

somas1

03-20-2003, 01:25 AM

One gig mem stick pro is under $500 already?

http://www.pagecomputers.com/cgi-bin/page/B0951165.html

Unregistered

03-20-2003, 01:37 AM

would never ever again do busness with that company, page computer

ordered a hd from them for a great price website said it was in stock wehen i called to get tracking told it was on backorder and they had already charged my creditcard, refused to refund two months later they emailed me and said that if i wanted the drive it would be 50bucks more expensive, they finally returned my money

jedix

03-20-2003, 05:22 AM

I ordered the 512 mb ms pro from page computer last night. They said they had it in stock. Then they e-mailed me that they actually didn't have any and cancelled my order. I think I'll take my business somewhere else.

khyasad

03-20-2003, 06:55 AM

As mentioned on a Sony website (of which the URL escapes me at this time), the DSC-F77 & DSC-FX77 work fine with MS Pro ... I have the latter and took some pictures ... Moved the MS Pro over to the NX70 and viewied the jpgs no problem using AcidImage ...

reggae

03-20-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by kkerruish
Reggae -

Even with the lower speed, the ability to simply access 1gb on a memory stick will be worth the cost for me...

I can defrag it using Windows...but to carry several states of maps, 600-700mb worth of MP3s and still be able to take pictures, or transfer files to/from the office...without adding to the size or weight of the NZ...that's worth some cash...:)

IMHO:

1) I would never pay more for an inferior medium
2) my microdrive isn't going to add any size (and would use less compared to my wifi card)
3) you have an NZ, i have an NX which means if i want bt capability where's that gonna go? how useful is my 1gb stick when i'm using bt?
4) if i'm watchin movies on an airplane what do i need my wifi slot for?
5) memstick does not (and will not ever) have the universal ability that my microdrive does. when clie's are dead and gone, you have an $800 memstick that's how useful to you? i can use my cf in my jornada, in any (not just sonys) laptop, hopefully in my clie, in many cameras, etc. etc.