Advancing Gaming on the PalmOS

[Reggie]

How games have, and will, impact future games and hardware in the PalmOS world. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=725)]

[Fishie_Flop]

Gaming will be an integral part in the future of almost all portable computing devices.

[Zork]

Game support on the Palm isa already great as your article proof. Ther is just one problem which makes most of the games on the Palm and any other PDA worthless : The inexistence of a real DPad or analogue stick. All solutions avail for POS 5 devices or PPCs are completely useles. The only exception is the analogue stick for the Zodiac, but even that one is a real pain in the *ss for DPad optimized games (like most emulation tools). So Palm could get millions of customers by implementing as the first PDA producer a fully functional DPad with their PDAs (cant be that hard and/or expensive to exchange that useless trash they use right now with a real DPad). Not the useless junk we get now, but real game PDAs like the one at the GBa for example.

Thats the major problem with gaming on any PDA right now. Read the reviews of Mazera or Madden 2005. The games are great. But you need full and real controls and they arent avail. There were also some interesting article at palm247 bout that problem. Controlling by stylus is nice, but it is no replacement for real game controls. So its bout Palm to solve that last major probs with PDAs.

[CroCo]

I want Star Control on palmOS!

[Cyker]

PalmOS is no good for action games. PPC is a lot better, but frankly none aside from the Zodiac are gonna come close to a PSP, DS or even a GBA.

PDAs are better suited to more 'cerebral' games - e.g. puzzle games, adventure games etc., and funnily enough this is where things like PSP, DS etc. are much weaker :)

Sadly, as the average level of intelligence of the world declines, so does the simplicity of games increase which is partially why almost all games out now are reflex-FPS games and the adventure/puzzle genre has all but died off except in a few small niches...

Compare this with a decade ago... *sigh*

[jwu]

I want Star Control on palmOS!

I love Star Control too!

[Zork]

Cyker, PPC and POS 5 devices are identical for action games (check the dozens of racers and FPS which arent avail for PPCs).

Im also not sure bout the simplicity of games. You are correct when it comes to the fact, that the FPS genre get way too much attention this days. This fact would be frightening enough, but the real thread is that most of them are so called tactical shooters, which are nothing else then military training, means murdering people as detailed as possible.

But on the other side on PDAs the best sold games are still games like Bejeweled which are pure fast thinking. Games like Madden 2005 are avail for PDAs too, but they arent sold that often (cause PDA users dont have all eternities to spend playing complex games like RPG or something like that while they on the road). Some other prob, which again is true for POS 5 and PPC is the fact that all of them dont offer real DPads. And its simply impossible to play action games w/o a real DPad. There is no fun when you lose most lives in Mazera thx to the almost correct controls of your PDA.

[mike p]

hmmm, most of those games are on ppc you kno...

bj2, madden, FIFA, gts racing

[Zork]

mike p, FIFA is a antique version. GTS Racing is a Palm first game. Same is true for Bejeweled and finally Madden 2005 got even the PPC and the Palm version on the same SD card ;) . I could list you dozen of action games which arent avail for PPCs and which are at least as great as their PPC counterparts (not to mention their higher resolution (480*320), cause PPC is still limited to 320 * 240 (beside a few batterylife-eating VGA PPCs)).

But lets avoid that this become another PPC/Palm thread, cause we should talk bout the problems of the PDA gaming market. And PPCs and Palms both got for example useless controls instead of real DPads.

[Antoine]

An imporved control system is another thing that will improve PalmOS gaming, but I think that Tapwave is the only licensee who really wants gaming ergonmics in a handheld. P1 can make it happen on the lower Zire models and create a buzz in the market that way. The question is if they, if any, will do it. The money is there if they can show people Palms are great. Heck, I just made a BB user feel really bad just playing Bejeweled 2 on the Metro. It can happen.

[Zork]

Theres not much to do. They could keep the same layout, but make their buttons and their DPad accurate and useable. Shoulder buttons would be kewl, but I would be satisfied if I press a DPad direction or a action button the same way I do on the GBA. With feedback, fast and accurate. Thats not possible with todays PDA controls. Zodiac is nice and their analogue stick is kewl, but a DPad is still necesarry today.

[gfunkmagic]

So what games do you think that the PalmOS platform has that works very well? Or, what games would you like to see that will push the PalmOS to places never thought possible. The Nintendo DS has thrown down a hammer with its dual screen integration, what other advances can PalmSource and its licensees bring to the table to overturn the playing field. Place your thoughts in the discussion thread.

Sadly, I'ld have to say that if you want a pda for gaming, then you better get at PPC. The Zodiac is nice hardware, but Tapwave is just to small and the paucity of original titles on the Zod is a major weakness. I'm now even doubtful if Tapwave can make a niche in the pda gaming segment with devices like the DS and PSP having more and more pda like functionality... :(

Also, one of the biggest weakness of PalmOS is the dearth of emus, especially snes and playstation. I know LJZ is available on the Zod, but that's just one device. How come you can find these emus for PPC but not palmos? :confused: Unless the emulator choice/availability for PalmOS equals WM, PalmOS will never be the hottest platform for hardcore pda gamers...

[foghead]

The biggest problem with writing games for Palm OS is slow graphics performance. The hardware is plenty fast, but there is no direct access to the hardware. The APIs that are provided for application development aren't suitable for games.

back in the OS4 days all of the games programmed the hardware directly and had really good performance for the hardware they were using. But when OS5 came out, suddenly none of them worked because of the much more complex architecture of the new devices. All of these games had to be rewritten to use the Palm APIs to work on the new OS. In most cases, these rewritten games were faster after the conversion even though they were going through a slower interface because they were running on 150 Mhz ARM devices instead of 33 Mhz 68K devices. But now two years later, PalmSource still hasn't provided a down and dirty game interface to let developers get the max performance.

Pocket PC developers have had an interface like this for years. It is called GAPI (Gamr API). It allows developers to get direct access to the frame buffer and blitter engine. Device manufacturers can also write custom GAPI drivers that are optimized for their specific hardware. This only provides a 2D interface, so the next version of the OS (Windows Mobile 2005) will include a portable version of Direct-3D so that game developers can also get to 3D accelerated hardware.

Until PalmSource comes out with a game developer API it will always be under a severe handicap. This is especially true as more devices have powerful graphics accelerators. I have spoken to a number of people at PalmSource and they acknowledge this, but as of Palm OS 6.21 there is still nothing there for games.

[Fishie_Flop]

Wasnt there supposed to be support for that in PalmOS6?

[gfunkmagic]

The biggest problem with writing games for Palm OS is slow graphics performance. The hardware is plenty fast, but there is no direct access to the hardware. The APIs that are provided for application development aren't suitable for games.


So are you saying the various middleware solutions like Gapidraw
and Fathammer for the Zod are adequate enough? :confused:

http://www.tapland.com/news_arc/?id=535


Pocket PC developers have had an interface like this for years. It is called GAPI (Gamr API). It allows developers to get direct access to the frame buffer and blitter engine. Device manufacturers can also write custom GAPI drivers that are optimized for their specific hardware. This only provides a 2D interface, so the next version of the OS (Windows Mobile 2005) will include a portable version of Direct-3D so that game developers can also get to 3D accelerated hardware.


What about the earlier announcement by Palmsource about OpenGL ES?


PalmSource today announced it has joined the Khronos Group as a contributing member to encourage the development and adoption of OpenGL ES as an important open 2D/3D graphics API standard for mobile multimedia applications. The company also announced to integrate OpenGL ES APIs into future versions of Cobalt to enable broad 3D and multimedia support.


Furthering the momentum of Palm OS in the wireless entertainment market, PalmSource will offer its own software implementation of the OpenGL ES APIs and enable the use of OpenGL ES-compliant hardware, allowing high performance graphics applications to run on a wide variety of Palm Powered devices. This software implementation is designed to provide Palm OS developers with a more cost-efficient development path towards the creation and deployment of sophisticated multimedia applications, while offering an improved multimedia user experience for Open GL ES compliant Palm Powered handhelds and smartphones.

Additionally, PalmSource will introduce a standardized graphics driver model for Palm OS Cobalt optimized for use with OpenGL ES-compliant chipsets. This driver will accelerate both the application level OpenGL ES APIs and most 2D graphics operations, as performed by Palm OS Cobalt's sophisticated system rendering technology. This will enable chipset vendors to concentrate on a single, standardized set of acceleration specifications, and allows Palm OS Cobalt to easily take full advantage of the growing number of graphics chipsets that support the OpenGL ES API.


http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6642

It seems the have a plan for true 3D gaming support for Cobalt, but they just haven't released it yet...maybe all the Palm Linux stuff has delayed things? :confused: ;)

Until PalmSource comes out with a game developer API it will always be under a severe handicap. This is especially true as more devices have powerful graphics accelerators. I have spoken to a number of people at PalmSource and they acknowledge this, but as of Palm OS 6.21 there is still nothing there for games.

Well, maybe a PalmSource will integrate OpenGL into the next ver of Cobalt soon. Hopefully they remember there still is a market for non-smartphone devices and release this quickly...

[Antoine]

Open GL should be expected to be seen in the next release of Cobalt, but I doubt that we would see it before this time next year on any PalmOS devices. What would be kool is if Tapwave would use that Open GL Cobalt and made a really nice platform for gaming.

I do agree though Tapwave needs better and much higher profile games. And that was my point behind Madden. I think that it might be big enough, even though the graphics still need some work, towards convincing other developers that porting current games to the PalmOS is good for the fan base. Hopefully, it happens.

Ems are on end, price of the devices are another. I still think that the Zodiac should been $100 less for each one than it currently is. That would open more eyes and would have stolen even more thunder from the [stinky] PS3 ship.

[Zork]

gfunkmagic, most games are released for PalmOS. PPCs are still a small niche. And bout emulation software : that was (!!!) the weak spot of the Palm in earlier years. Now the Palm get each and every emu (beside the "would be kewl if it would even work" beta PSX emu for the PPC) and from XMas on the Palm even got the first GBA emu avail for PDAs (hopefully Crimson Fire dont mismatch Aprils Fool with XMas :) - and dont tell me bout the nice trial MorphGear). But emus arent a sign for a vivid platform. Usually they justshow that there isnt enough original development for this platform, cause indeed everyone like to play real optimized games for their platform instead of old stuff whch couldnt compare to the real games. Emus are just nice additions to real games. And games are done mostly for Palm OS. Like it or not, but its the market which dictates the support. Even Acedior is now done for the Palm exclusive (by a former PPC only company).

Foghead, it was always harder to develop for the Palm. For the PPC you more or less recompiled your Windows application and thats it (as long as you used the MFC classes supported by Win CE too). But this isnt bout how easy it is for developers. IT is how large the narket is. And the Palm market is way, way larger then the PPC market ever would be. And take a look at the console market. You got to know what you do, when you develop for the PS2. For the XBox on the other side each and every fool could develop its own application (now you know why most XBox games look like done by a six year old ;) ). But all games are done for the PS2 and most XBox games are only ported PS2 and Windows games. Simply cause the XBox got almost no market share globally compared to the PS2. So the market dictates which palaform is supported, not the SDK.

So much for the usual PPC rumours. But this isnt bout the usual "Isnt PPC great ?" whining, cause this is a Palm forum. This thread should be used bout talking bout the real probs PDA gaming got. And Open GL wont change anything (neither would DX support for PPCs). It just means that games get slower, cause of usin this API instead of direct hardware adressing. Usin a API is always the death for optimized games. Look at the horrible Windows ports which are released smetimes for the PS2 and compare them technically to the kewl PS2 exclusive stuff. Open GL just ease things for the developers. But for the gamers it doesnt mean any advantage at all (beside some promises that perhaps a few more slower games wil be ported to the Palm ... yippie ;) ).

[foghead]

So are you saying the various middleware solutions like Gapidraw
and Fathammer for the Zod are adequate enough? :confused:
http://www.tapland.com/news_arc/?id=535
That is for the Zodiac - specifically because Tapwave has exposed the graphics engine. This means high-end game graphics support for a few thousand (ten to twenty?) out the millions of Palm OS devices sold.

Also, just as an aside, GapiDraw for the Zod calls the FatHammer API. This means that you have one abstraction layer calling another abstraction layer. It is still pretty fast, but is less than ideal (far less).

Much as I love my Zodiac, this is meaningless for Palm OS in general.
What about the earlier announcement by Palmsource about OpenGL ES?
Announcements are great - where is it? There isn't even a preliminary version of it available to developers. It is possible that a people at a few of the larger game houses have seen it, but on the day it ships general acceptance for it is at least six months to a year away. And for any kind of decent performance it will require a driver upgrade for each device. Based on history, don't expect support for existing devices.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6642

It seems the have a plan for true 3D gaming support for Cobalt, but they just haven't released it yet...maybe all the Palm Linux stuff has delayed things? :confused: ;)
I would guess that Linux has totally changed the plans since this story talks about a new driver architecture for Cobalt and the reason for the Linux switch is to get Linux drivers and get rid of the Cobalt drivers altogether. All this means today is that once Palm OS for Linux devices come out people can start to develop OpenGL drivers for them and once there is enough momentum games will start to show up. Check back in a couple of years.
Well, maybe a PalmSource will integrate OpenGL into the next ver of Cobalt soon. Hopefully they remember there still is a market for non-smartphone devices and release this quickly...
The next version of Cobalt is more than a year away and based on the noises PalmSource has been making, it is aimed only at cel phones (this is pretty certain).

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see great game support for Palm OS - I write games. I'm just not convinced that PalmSource really gives a damn.

[Fishie_Flop]

But if they dont implement support in their phone solutions they are making a big mistake.
Its another market that is seeing great strides towards games.

[foghead]

Foghead, it was always harder to develop for the Palm. For the PPC you more or less recompiled your Windows application and thats it (as long as you used the MFC classes supported by Win CE too). But this isnt bout how easy it is for developers. IT is how large the narket is. And the Palm market is way, way larger then the PPC market ever would be. And take a look at the console market. You got to know what you do, when you develop for the PS2. For the XBox on the other side each and every fool could develop its own application (now you know why most XBox games look like done by a six year old ;) ). But all games are done for the PS2 and most XBox games are only ported PS2 and Windows games. Simply cause the XBox got almost no market share globally compared to the PS2. So the market dictates which palaform is supported, not the SDK.
Wow - there is so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin. I don't have all day so I guess I will just hit the high points.

Writing PPC games is nothing like "you more or less recompiled your Windows application and thats it." This has never been true. GAPI bears no resemblance to any code that exists on desktop PCs. It is a complete port in all cases. GAPIDraw gives you some similarities, but it is still a rewrite.

The Palm market is not bigger than the PPC market. Ove the last year or so sales on the two platforms are almost identical and any devices more than a year or two old don't interest high-end game developers because they are too slow, and high-end developers are what this discussion is about. And once you see that the two markets are roughly the same size, you need to understand that the ONLY thing professional developers care about is how powerful and easy to develop for the platforms are.

Professional developers (as opposed to hobbyists and enthusiasts) go where they can get the most bang for their buck.
So much for the usual PPC rumours. But this isnt bout the usual "Isnt PPC great ?" whining, cause this is a Palm forum. This thread should be used bout talking bout the real probs PDA gaming got. And Open GL wont change anything (neither would DX support for PPCs). It just means that games get slower, cause of usin this API instead of direct hardware adressing. Usin a API is always the death for optimized games. Look at the horrible Windows ports which are released smetimes for the PS2 and compare them technically to the kewl PS2 exclusive stuff. Open GL just ease things for the developers. But for the gamers it doesnt mean any advantage at all (beside some promises that perhaps a few more slower games wil be ported to the Palm ... yippie ;) ).
I wasn't doing any PPC whining. If I was doing any whining, it was about Palm. Based on my comments earlier in the post, if you believe that the gaming abilities of the PPC world are not important to the Palm world you don't have a clue.

Also, if you believe that using a low level gaming API means slower games than without an API, then you really shouldn't be posting in this thread. Yes programming to an API is (slightly) slower than programming to a specific device, but no developer is going to program custom versions for a dozen (or more) different devices. Instead, they will just ignore special features and program to the common capabilities of all the devices The end result will be much, much slower than an API game. If this doesn't make sense, explain to me why virtually all desktop games are written to either DirectX or OpenGL. Game developers go where they can get the best cost/performace. I guarantee that games as shipped are faster when written using game APIs than they would be without them in the real world where you buy and play them.

The "slow" game API on the Pocket PC is why I can download ports of Doom, Quake, Quake 2 (really needs the 3d API). Warlords, etc. Until Palm releases something equivalent, we won't see this caliber of games on standard Palm OS devices. I can play Doom and Quake on a Zodiac, but guess what? The Zod has an industry standard, high performance game API available so that developers can access its accelerated graphics - get the point?

[foghead]

But if they dont implement support in their phone solutions they are making a big mistake.
Its another market that is seeing great strides towards games.
Agreed, but will it help my T3?

[Fishie_Flop]

Your T3, definitly not.
To work on new portable hardware now and discard gaming is extremely stupid though.

I am a videogamereporter and recently I visited ceatec Japan and unless they implement some of the things I have seen there(and some of which are already implemented in mainstream Japanese handsets) Palm1/Source will be in a world of hurt both for PDA´s as well as convergent devices.

[EntropyQ3]

PowerVR makes the PowerMBX cores available to lisencees to embed in their own CPUs/SoCs. These, particularly the higher end one, offer really quite good features and performance. http://www.powervr.com/Products/Graphics/MBX/Index.asp
They have been liscensed by Intel, Samsung, TI and others and at least the lower end models have been incorporated into commercially available parts.
They collaborate with Khronos to ensure good OpenGLES support.

The processors are here, the API is here, it would seem a no-brainer for PalmOne to incorporate this into their Zire and Tungsten product lines. It is a niche where the comparatively large (and clunky) screens of PDAs and PalmOne smartphones suddenly become a decided advantage.

PalmOne seem too tied up in its own identity crisis to aggressively pursue market possibilities that are wide open in front of them, if they aren't already their corporate roadmaps. It's a pity. Nintendo DS/Sony PSP challenging hardware with a good API plus full PDA functionality and media support - PalmOne could have shipped it now if they had been on the ball.

[Fishie_Flop]

Exactly, instead we see it corporated in the Dell x50v and Japanese cellphones and soon it will be an integral part of PPCs.
Its not that it will be used only for games either, imagine 3D visulisations of your data in high res smootly integrated with your regular PIM and files.
Its a big step forward in useability.
I think its what Palm needs right now.

[Antoine]

From the bulk of comments here, is all that is being said is that PalmSource needs to take advantage of the widely used gaming APIs in order to get a larger piece of the gaming market. That sounds simple enough, but I am sure that Tapwave can attest that integrating an API into an OS is quite a feat. I wonder if PalmSource and Tapwave have already been down this road and are working on making OpenGL and other APIs easily accessable by major and minor game developers.

In the meantime, wouldnt it just be nice to see a PalmOS device running Need for Speed HSII or some other popular game that is less than 2 years old on other platforms. I would think so, heck, I wager that if that could happen that the PalmOS will be looked at more seriously by the gaming community. But that is just a thought.

[Zork]

FogHead, at first try to read stuff before you quote it ;) :

--- begin of text ---

Writing PPC games is nothing like "you more or less recompiled your Windows application and thats it." This has never been true.

--- end of text ---

Which part of "application" exactly you mismatched with "games" ? And for applications this was always true, cause we did already development for both platforms (Win 2K and Win CE).

--- begin of text ---

The Palm market is not bigger than the PPC market. Ove the last year or so sales on the two platforms are almost identical and any devices more than a year or two old don't interest high-end game developers because they are too slow, and high-end developers are what this discussion is about. And once you see that the two markets are roughly the same size, you need to understand that the ONLY thing professional developers care about is how powerful and easy to develop for the platforms are.

--- end of text ---

The Palm market is a few times larger. This is true for the recent months (even the famous IDC study has proven that) and the recent months arent the ones which are exclusively interesting for game developers. There are still more games released for PalmOS 4.x then for Pocket PCs. Not to mention Palm OS 5.x . Look at Crimson Fire. they stopped PPC game development. Look at Acedior. Palm exclusive. Look at PDAMill. The release now almost a dozen games as ports for the Palm (so they arent PPC focused anymore). Not to mention that all Astraware games are either Palm firsties or Palm exclusive. So much for the reality at the PDA gaming market.

--- begin of text ---

Also, if you believe that using a low level gaming API means slower games than without an API, then you really shouldn't be posting in this thread.

--- end of text ---

Thsi is so amazingly wrong, that its hard to believe that you are really developing for any platform. Period. And if you really comply bout my statement im goin to forward it to any console forum I like ;) (Hey guys, forget bout ignoring middleware. Its way faster to use another ressource intensive development layer instead of doin your own engine which is optimized for your purpose ! And BTW Usin optimzed assembler codes for ressource intensive functions is trash too. VB rulez.).

--- begin of text ---

The "slow" game API on the Pocket PC is why I can download ports of Doom, Quake, Quake 2 (really needs the 3d API). Warlords, etc. Until Palm releases something equivalent, we won't see this caliber of games on standard Palm OS devices.

--- end of text ---

Not a single game you mentioned here is younger then 5 years. Sorry, but this list is the most horrible example to show how bad the state of PPC game development is. Thats his prob. All this old stuff isnt interesting anymore. If you got the premiere gaming platform (at least for PDA standards indeed ;) . Compared to real gaming handhelds like the GBA, both the Palm and the PPC got almost zero market share) you got new games like Daedalus 3D (another Palm exclusive one) or Galactic Realms (another Palm exclusive one). Optimized from the beginning for your own platform. Not ported from a antique game from a different platform. And things are getting even more horrible when complete useless ports are done like Age Of Empires and Sim City 2000. Both this games are made for a reason for SVGA minimum (Sim City 2k were even one of the first games which run only in 640 * 480 appr. a decade ago. There as a reason to no bein compatible to the then standard 320 * 240 VGA resolution). And cause of some port fanatics didnt understood the meaning of a game you got not only stone age games, but also games which arent playable at 320 * 240.

Its strange that PPC evangelists cant stop such a thread. This is about Palm gaming. Either get it or change to a PPC only forum. This isnt cause you arent smart or something (many statements you are made here are really interesting). But here we talk bout Palm problems and all you post here is stuff bout a complete different platform.

Last one : Cause many users here made the mistake that ports are fun or some addition to their games collection : Ports means the end of any living platform. Take a look at the XBox. At least 90 % badly ported Windows and PS2 games. There isnt the smallest reason to buy a XBox cause you could play the real games way sooner and with better quality then on a XBox. Or take a look at the Mac. At earlier years there were less games released. But it offered game cornerstones like Myst, Myth or Marathon. Now almost every popular Windows game is ported for the Mac too. But this killed Mac game development completely. So why usin a Mac for gaming now anymore ? All the games you could play there are avail for Windows appr. half a year before and even work way better beside the slower hardware Windows PC uses, cause all the games code is optimized for the Windows architecture. So sorry, but each Daedalus 3D release is way more value for each and every gamer out there (and also for the the platform itself) as some unoptimized port of a stone age first person shooter. Just my 2 cents bout the porting hysteria here ;) .

[Fishie_Flop]

Zork, check out Flux challenge.

Nuff said.

[foghead]

Try to use the quote feature of the board - it helps readability... ;)
Which part of "application" exactly you mismatched with "games" ? And for applications this was always true, cause we did already development for both platforms (Win 2K and Win CE).
The thread is about games not generic apps and that is how I replied to your statement - sorry.

Of course if the app is much more complex than Hello World yu still have to port it since Wince is much more restricted and just doesn't have a lot of functions and is even missing complete interfaces present in desktop Windows. I have converted half-a-dozen real world apps to Wince and every one of them required at least a ten percent code change to get around platform differences.

This would mean that you are still wrong.

Strike 1
The Palm market is a few times larger. This is true for the recent months (even the famous IDC study has proven that) and the recent months arent the ones which are exclusively interesting for game developers. There are still more games released for PalmOS 4.x then for Pocket PCs. Not to mention Palm OS 5.x . Look at Crimson Fire. they stopped PPC game development. Look at Acedior. Palm exclusive. Look at PDAMill. The release now almost a dozen games as ports for the Palm (so they arent PPC focused anymore). Not to mention that all Astraware games are either Palm firsties or Palm exclusive. So much for the reality at the PDA gaming market.
According to the latest figures for the last few months, both IDC and Gartner have put the two markets within a few percentage points - this is since Sony quit.

For large new games of the type we are talking about (not candy-a** puzzle games that can run on a Gameboy), initial development generally aims at currently shipping devices as a minimum. That way when the project is done in six to twelve months, the people that actually spend money on games (people that buy PDAs at least once a year) will have the hardware that can run the game. As far as companies porting PPC games to Palm OS. Of cource once the work is done they will port to the other platform. And by then the hardware will be fast enough to compensate for the lack of software power we have been talking about - thanks for making my point. As far as Astraware, see my comment above about Gameboy games. Don't get me wrong, I am hooked on Bejewelled (haven't tried v2 yet). Oh yeah - Bejewlled 2 came out at the same time for both Palm And PPC. Maybe they figured it out too.

Strike 2
Thsi is so amazingly wrong, that its hard to believe that you are really developing for any platform. Period. And if you really comply bout my statement im goin to forward it to any console forum I like ;) (Hey guys, forget bout ignoring middleware. Its way faster to use another ressource intensive development layer instead of doin your own engine which is optimized for your purpose ! And BTW Usin optimzed assembler codes for ressource intensive functions is trash too. VB rulez.).
Step up chldren, this is a perfect example of taking a statement out of context - very useful if you want to get a job at the National Enquirer.

As I said in the full statement, writing directly to hardware is faster. Writing to an API is faster than writing a generic game that can run on all variants of a platform by not using any advanced features.

This obviously has nothing to do with console development (as you know) since a console platform is homogenous - every PS2 is the same as every other PS2. Unfortunately this isn't true for Palm OS devices. There are different devices with different processors from different manufactureres with different capabilities. There are different sound chips that are more or less powerful and have different APIs. Worst of all there are different graphics controllers woth different capabilities. Some graphics controllers use system memory, some have dedicated memory-mapped RAM and some have memory that isn't even memory-mapped at all - it isn't visible to apps. Some have blitters, some don't. Expect to see some with 3-D acce;erators real soon now (might have happened already and I just didn't notice).

This has nothing to do with console development and is why game APIs were created in the first place.

Strike 3 - You're out. But just for fun let's keep going.
Not a single game you mentioned here is younger then 5 years. Sorry, but this list is the most horrible example to show how bad the state of PPC game development is. Thats his prob. All this old stuff isnt interesting anymore. If you got the premiere gaming platform (at least for PDA standards indeed ;) . Compared to real gaming handhelds like the GBA, both the Palm and the PPC got almost zero market share) you got new games like Daedalus 3D (another Palm exclusive one) or Galactic Realms (another Palm exclusive one). Optimized from the beginning for your own platform. Not ported from a antique game from a different platform. And things are getting even more horrible when complete useless ports are done like Age Of Empires and Sim City 2000. Both this games are made for a reason for SVGA minimum (Sim City 2k were even one of the first games which run only in 640 * 480 appr. a decade ago. There as a reason to no bein compatible to the then standard 320 * 240 VGA resolution). And cause of some port fanatics didnt understood the meaning of a game you got not only stone age games, but also games which arent playable at 320 * 240.
The reason that games being ported are five years old (or older) is because porting is a reasonable way to get a program going on a platform for a minimal investment. The premise, story, logic and actual code already exist. I guess somebody could try to port Doom 3 to a PDA, but since it barely runs on most PCs, it might be a little optimistic to put it on a PDA (come back in five to ten years). Smart developers look at games that were written for PC hardware that was roughly as powerful as the PDAs that they are targeting today. Guess when 200 - 400 Mhz processors and VGA graphics were standard for games? If you guess five to ten years ago, then you will understand the reason for older games being ported.

But I agree with your assessment of how ports are actually accomplished. The first time that I played Age of Empires on a PPC, I was amazed that it worked, and how well it ran. After about ten minutes, I became appalled at the actual gameplay. The operation was a success but the patient died. They needed to spend much more time reworking the UI for pen control rather than just assuming that the pen is the same as a mouse. They also need to redo the graphics to look better on the smaller display. I have good eyesight but I couldn't see a lot of details that I needed to play the game because they were trying to fit everything from the 640x480 screen onto a 320x240 display. This is an indictment of the implementation not the methodolgy of the port itself.
Its strange that PPC evangelists cant stop such a thread. This is about Palm gaming. Either get it or change to a PPC only forum. This isnt cause you arent smart or something (many statements you are made here are really interesting). But here we talk bout Palm problems and all you post here is stuff bout a complete different platform.
The use of the PPC is to illustrate how it can work for developers if even minimal support is provided - and that is about all that GAPI is. At the lowest level MS has provided a method for manufacturers to provide access to video memory and very basic hardware acceleration without going through the GDI bottleneck. This is what PalmSource needs to provide.
Last one : Cause many users here made the mistake that ports are fun or some addition to their games collection : Ports means the end of any living platform. Take a look at the XBox. At least 90 % badly ported Windows and PS2 games. There isnt the smallest reason to buy a XBox cause you could play the real games way sooner and with better quality then on a XBox. Or take a look at the Mac. At earlier years there were less games released. But it offered game cornerstones like Myst, Myth or Marathon. Now almost every popular Windows game is ported for the Mac too. But this killed Mac game development completely. So why usin a Mac for gaming now anymore ? All the games you could play there are avail for Windows appr. half a year before and even work way better beside the slower hardware Windows PC uses, cause all the games code is optimized for the Windows architecture. So sorry, but each Daedalus 3D release is way more value for each and every gamer out there (and also for the the platform itself) as some unoptimized port of a stone age first person shooter. Just my 2 cents bout the porting hysteria here ;) .
I can't argue with this. The examples that I used were ports because the names of PPC specific games wouldn't mean anything to most people on this board. They were just examples of games that would be very difficult or impossible to port to Palm OS (except the Zodiac) because of the graphics bottleneck that is at the root of this discussion.

I would rather have good new platform games than ports. But I would rather have ports than no decent games at all. ;)

[Spiral]

I'll point out two statements.
Look at PDAMill. The release now almost a dozen games as ports for the Palm (so they arent PPC focused anymore).

Cause many users here made the mistake that ports are fun or some addition to their games collection : Ports means the end of any living platform. Take a look at the XBox. At least 90 % badly ported Windows and PS2 games.
PDAMill ports their games to Palm = End of every living platform?
You don't even make sense when you're comparing your own statements against each other. Oh btw, I included the second part about XBox games being ported from Windows and PS2 because it shows you didn't just mean games that are 5+ years old.

[Zork]

Fishie_Flop, read PDAMills announcements. Flux Challenge will be released for the Palm early 2005.

Foghead

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I have converted half-a-dozen real world apps to Wince and every one of them required at least a ten percent code change to get around platform differences.

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And this differs from "more or less recompiled your Windows application" exactly where ? And if you got more then ten percent, start to check your MSDN for the WinCE complaint MFC classes. Isnt it much easier then ;) ?

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According to the latest figures for the last few months, both IDC and Gartner have put the two markets within a few percentage points - this is since Sony quit.

For large new games of the type we are talking about (not candy-a** puzzle games that can run on a Gameboy), initial development generally aims at currently shipping devices as a minimum. That way when the project is done in six to twelve months, the people that actually spend money on games (people that buy PDAs at least once a year) will have the hardware that can run the game. As far as companies porting PPC games to Palm OS. Of cource once the work is done they will port to the other platform. And by then the hardware will be fast enough to compensate for the lack of software power we have been talking about - thanks for making my point. As far as Astraware, see my comment above about Gameboy games. Don't get me wrong, I am hooked on Bejewelled (haven't tried v2 yet). Oh yeah - Bejewlled 2 came out at the same time for both Palm And PPC. Maybe they figured it out too.

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IDC and Gartner both showed that Palms are as always the most selling platform. And PalmOS 4.x is still supported even by the most recent games (check Mazera, etc.). And we arent talking bout puzzle games only. Most action games are still avail for Palm OS 4.x too. Most times only supporting LoRes, but they are there. Cause they exists in millions and developers arent here for a few freaks only (that was the death of PC gaming BTW - developing just for a few early adaptors, while the mass of the PC market werent able to play their games. That was one of the main reasons why PCs arent used for gaming anymore, compared with consoles. The PC is already at almost 10 percent of the complete gaming market (as suggested by IDC)).
So like it or not, Palms are the number one when it comes to gaming support. I proven you that PDA developers stopped PPC support and former PPC only developers started to support the Palm OS more and more. To quote Clinton : "Its the economy, ......" (didnt censored the quote w/o a reason, cause its fine that this thread kept a more or less civilized way). There are millions of POS 4.x and 5.x devices out there vs. a few hundred thousand PPC PDAs. So guess which platform will be supported by economically thinking developers (and all of them have to think that way if they want maximize their profit) ?

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This obviously has nothing to do with console development (as you know) since a console platform is homogenous - every PS2 is the same as every other PS2. Unfortunately this isn't true for Palm OS devices. There are different devices with different processors from different manufactureres with different capabilities. There are different sound chips that are more or less powerful and have different APIs. Worst of all there are different graphics controllers woth different capabilities. Some graphics controllers use system memory, some have dedicated memory-mapped RAM and some have memory that isn't even memory-mapped at all - it isn't visible to apps. Some have blitters, some don't. Expect to see some with 3-D acce;erators real soon now (might have happened already and I just didn't notice).

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Again, Foghead, you really ever created a PDA game or at least used it ? If so, you should know that there are usually appr. 4-6 different versions of each game avail for the Palm. You got the meaning of hardware based optimizition ? With middleware this would mean that you got one unecesarry large and slower application. Thats fine for developers, but for users it means disadvantage after disadvantage. And developers arent the ones which buyin games. We, the users , are the one which buy them. And the smaller and faster the better for us.

To use your baseball synonymous : 3 misses is usually the end for one striker. But lets play it just for fun :) :

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The reason that games being ported are five years old (or older) is because porting is a reasonable way to get a program going on a platform for a minimal investment. The premise, story, logic and actual code already exist. I guess somebody could try to port Doom 3 to a PDA, but since it barely runs on most PCs, it might be a little optimistic to put it on a PDA (come back in five to ten years). Smart developers look at games that were written for PC hardware that was roughly as powerful as the PDAs that they are targeting today. Guess when 200 - 400 Mhz processors and VGA graphics were standard for games? If you guess five to ten years ago, then you will understand the reason for older games being ported.

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So tis playin old, ported games instead of new, optimized games. Its nice to play old games every now and then. I start Out Run for the C64 with PalmFrodo every now and then too. But thats not the gaming purpose of my Palm. Thats just some time filler between real games. So where exactly is the advantage of play mainly old stuff ? For retro fans its surely fine, but the retro wave isnt that huge anymore. Most gamers want new, unknown games (or at least succesors of known ones ;) ). So forget Doom and get Daedalus 3D (or at least check it. Its really awesome to play a FPS with todays resolution (means no 320 * 240 antique one) on your Palm).

Bout Age Of Empires : It isnt the GUI. It is the fact that thos games were released for 640 * 480 minimum for a reason. So its simply useless to crunch them on a 320 * 240 screen. You cant display all necesarry details usin VGA resolution (and details are gone usin downsampling for smaller resolutions). Thats why playin Sim City on your Palm means fun (cause Sim City never were made for anyting larger then 320 *320) and playin Sim City 2K on a 320 * 240 screen is just a waste of time (Sim City 2K used 640 * 480 for the reason, that the old VGA resolution werent able to display the needed GUI and the necesarry details at the city). Thats one of the disadvantage of simply porting games. A fine example how ports should be done is by redeveloping them completely. Look at FIFA for the PPC. There is no version with top down graphx as for the PPC. But thats fine, cause you cant use 320 * 240 for detailed 3D graphx. It would be even a fine game (I played it a lot) if the controls would have been way better (but thats the main prob of every PDA game as I stated at the start of that thread - before a few PPC fans meant they have to turn it into a PPC vs. Palm thread again).

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The use of the PPC is to illustrate how it can work for developers if even minimal support is provided - and that is about all that GAPI is. At the lowest level MS has provided a method for manufacturers to provide access to video memory and very basic hardware acceleration without going through the GDI bottleneck. This is what PalmSource needs to provide.

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You stated it correctly this time. It would be fine for developers. But we arent developers. We want developers which are familiar with the platform for which they are developing. Check the PS2 games form Japan like the ones from Capcom for example. Devil May Cry 3 looks like hell. Simply cause there is almost no middleware in use and the developers know how to handle both vector units the optimized way. And check bout the US and european developers on the other side. Complaining all the times bout the fact that the SDK libs are a bad joke for the PS2 (and they are - noone will doubt that, compared with the oens for the other consoles). What bout start to become familiar with the given hardware instead of whining around ? If you want do it, someone else will get the profit for developing for the most widespreaded platform. Its that easy.

Bout your last statement that the ports arent possible for a technical reason : Go check for example Daedalus 3D instead of your old Doom ports.

BTW Its nice that this thread stays still at a more or less civilized manner. So lets keep it that way. And to suggest it again : PPCs are nice. But this should be a Palm gaming thread.

Spiral, it simply shows, that even formerly PPC only developers start to shift thier atention to Palm too, while former Palm and PPC developers start to stop supporting the PPC. But you are correct that if it stays only that way (means just porting PPC games to the Palm) it wouldnt be much of an advantage for Palm users indeed. But take a look at the Fade Team. Acedior Palm exclusive. Noone would have even dreamed bout such a scenario when their first game was released. As mentioned above : Economy rulez ;) .

BTW Found that today (its interesting how the outside world thinks bout PDAs when it comes to quality) :

--- begin of text www.pcmagazine.com ---

Ten to Avoid—The Worst Products of the Year 12.03.04 Jim Louderback
Total posts: 30


By Jim Louderback

...

PDA: iPAQ used to stand for quality. Then HP bought Compaq, and you
can't bet on an iPAQ anymore. Witness the fundamentally flawed iPAQ
rz1715. HP's low-end PDA was designed to compete with low-cost
products from Dell and Palm, but it lacks any of their redeeming
qualities. The glacially slow processor and anemic memory make using
it torture, but at least the pain is short lived—because the battery
wears out hours before the ones on comparable units do. It's a pity
this iPAQ's so bad, but don't saddle yourself or your friends, with
this boat anchor. There are better products available for less. Our
PDA Product Guide has details.

--- end of text www.pcmagazine.com ---

Aint this interesting ? Most interesting is the part with the short battery life (werent there some whining bout the bad Palm products, while I stated correctly, that battery life for the Palm isnt as good as formerly (especially with the Zire 72), but compared to most PPCs it offers way better battery life). While at PPC forum everyone whine bout the bad quality of Palm products, reality shows that iPaqs are the losers of the year in the real world. And they are also economically :

--- begin of text www.pcmagazine.com ---

TOP SELLERS:
1. palmOne Treo 650
2. Palm Tungsten E
3. Hewlett Packard iPAQ H6315
more >

--- begin of text www.pcmagazine.com ---

Thats the recent sales statistics for the PDA shop. Palm needs another wave of innovations. Thats true. SVGA resolution still is just some minor part of the PPC market supported by almost no software, but it is avail. Time for Palm to keep up with that fact (and they surely will do so, cause we all remember when Palm offered just 160 * 160 devices and now every Palm PDA offers way better resolution then standard PPCs).

Posted that only for recent information, not to support the tendency that some users here like to switch that into a PPC vs. Palm thread again, while the real problems still stay there for every PDA gamer.

[foghead]

Once more a clueless post by a wanabee.

Yes I have written or helped write over a dozen PDA games - how about you?

Before that I spent over a decade writing VGA and motherboaed BIOSs, Windows display drivers and other optimized assembly langauage projects. I have less experience writing C, probably only a half-a-million lines or so of original code.

Based on this and your answers, I really do know what I am talking about - unlike you. And since you can only help someone that wants to learn, and only have a discussion with someone capable of conversation, I am doing something that I have never done before. You are the first person that I have ever put on a ignore list. This basically means that you are the first person that I have ever met online on any of the dozen or so boards where I post that has absolutely nothing to teach me or to contribute to a conversation that I am involved in.

Quite an honor for one so young. Of course based on your posts, I am sure that your Mommy and Daddy will take away your Internet access once they see your next English composition grade anyway, so no loss. :p

[Fishie_Flop]

Hahahaha

Oh boy.

[ackmondual]

man, i love reading these Zork vs. arguments. So much flair

I'd have to say that while there are alot of Palm exclusive titles, there's also plenty of PPC exclusive titles as well. PDAmil still has quite a few PPC exclusives. Arvale being the main one. At least half of their offerings are PPC only.

I wanted to check out www.ClickGamer.com for some good game sales but only 3 of the 33 titles were on sale. On top of that, they sell nearly x2 as many PPC games than Palm.

And can u ppl plz try to include links or sources for marketshare and stuff? I've known that Palm no longer has a huge lead over PPC anymore, but it'd be nice to see such facts as tangible evidence