1src Forums - Kinoma Player 3 EX

troydl

12-02-2004, 10:23 PM

DivX aint MPEG 4 !!!! DivX just once was a trial of MS to destroy the MPEG 4 standard. But thewy gave up and DivX became just another codec. Real MPEG 4 becomes in the meantime more and more a predecessor of MPEG 2 (which is now used most often (either for SVCDS at the scene or simply at your bought DVD)).
But noone realized the amazing fact bout Kinoma 3 :

--- trumpets ---

Here we are. The Palm is the first PDA out there which is able to play iTunes songs on a PDA !!!! Means now you could play all your AAC and M4A songs you encoded with the industry standard player iTunes. And even better : By usin software like FairPlay you could even play your Apple Music store songs on your Palm. That means, that the iPod and this strange Motorola mobile isnt the only possibility anymore to hear your M4A songs while you are on the road. Thats simply amazing (please, PPC evangelists, stop whining now ;) ).

Another huge advantage is the direct support of M4V (MPEG 4 video). Encoded today my first MPEG 4 video (which is right now simply the best codec for portable devices (forget bout the other non standard codecs)) and the quality is simply amazing (way better then DivX or the old CinePac (which Kinoma 1 + 2 used)). MPEG 4 is the same codec Apple uses for all of the movie trailers on their Quicktime websites.

Wow never saw anyone hate microsoft, love kinoma and try to hide it this way... :D

Actually DivX was originally a hack of the Microsoft ASF MPEG-4 implementation (since ASF was restricted to 352x288 resolution).

MPEG4 is a standard promoted by the Motion Picture Experts Group (MPEG) and microsoft (as well as others) had implemented it and as usual added their own twists on things. There is no one real MPEG4 Codec, only flavors of it as most of the features included in MPEG-4 standard are left to individual developers to implement. This means that there are very few complete implementations of the MPEG-4 standard.

I believe movieplayer that comes standard on the Clie already supports MPEG4 type "movies" and free movie players like FMV (along with some borrowed codecs) can play it too (and for quite some time now).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4

clie_wannabe

12-03-2004, 02:18 PM

hhhmmm... kinda strange that they would have to restrict MPEG4 playback - that is one of the newer functionalities, and one that im sure everyone would love to try out before actually buying the product...

clie_wannabe

12-03-2004, 03:15 PM

if this means it can NATIVELY play DIVX movies without me having to continually re-encoding it then I just might pay for this.

Anyone who has this. Can you do a comparison betwn this and MMPLAYER?? :confused:

anyway, i would love for anyone to do a review on it, ie., compression speeds, compression ratio (size per minute), etc. as opposed to other means of viewing videos on the clie/palm

Zork

12-04-2004, 09:25 AM

troydl, MS never tried to implemtent MPEG 4 standards. The tried to destroy it (read the DivX story on most DivX sites out there). And no, there arent many MPEG 4 standards. There is only one which is testified by the Motion Picture Group. And only Quicktime (since Quicktime 5) and now the Kinoma Player 3 supports that standard completely. 3ivX, DivX and XviD are mainly toys which arent complying to the given MPEG 4 standard. If you like your media to be compatible with MPEG 4 (the succesor of the MPEG 2 standard) you could only use Quicktime and Kinoma. Everything else is just a non industry standard compatible try w/o the smallest use at all. And BTW Indeed MPEG 4 offers the best quality out there. Check the trailers from Apples Quicktime web site. They are simply amazing (anyone remember the last official Star Wars trailer ? There were never a codec which offered that quality before).

Zork

12-04-2004, 09:38 AM

clie_Wannabe, I already tried it out. Video quality is awesome (Cinepak were already fine when you were familiar with the correct settings, but this is something which isnt shown at any other portable device out there - again, sorry, MS evangelists, get a MPEG codec and then you could start whining again). Same is true with AAC for the sound. Simply download the Kinoma producer 3 from www.kinoma.com to try it out (you could use it for 2 days for testing. Only prob I saw is that its limited to 30 seconds clips while in trial mode :( ).
Anyway : Watching tv serials become a reality for the first time on PDAs (forget the lousy former Kinoma and other wannabee player trials on Palm or PPC). Kinoma 3 is the product we all have waiting for to watch the recent Simpsons on our PDA :) . And it could even play all your Apple Music Store and other iTunes songs whily you are on your way. For the first time outside your iPod :) . This update is more then just awesome. For the first time im even thinking bout getting Music from the Apple Music Store (its just the industry leading online music store ;) ), cause now I could play it on my Palm (or any other PDA).
Sorry for all the fanatics of other tools out there, but since Kinoma 3 there is only one movie and song player avail for any PDA (and I werent a Kinoma fan before this one, cause even that Cinepak offered fine quality it had a lot of sync probs). And sorry, PPC folks, but this one is another reason why you took obviously the wrong choice :) . Better luck buying your next PDA.

junglemike

12-04-2004, 10:12 AM

There is only one which is testified by the Motion Picture Group. And only Quicktime (since Quicktime 5) and now the Kinoma Player 3 supports that standard completely. 3ivX, DivX and XviD are mainly toys which arent complying to the given MPEG 4 standard. If you like your media to be compatible with MPEG 4 (the succesor of the MPEG 2 standard) you could only use Quicktime and Kinoma.
completely rediculous. If you are a standard user - you even might not know what Mmpe4 is, but what you DO want - it to see MORE quality and LESS fle size, and this meas NO-NO for Kinoma and quicktime's mpeg-4.
It's even funny to compare Quicktime's mpeg-4 to XVid, which is Open source format and the best till now. To justify my words:, go to this page, It is DOOM9's codec comparison (doom9.org is main video resource)
http://www.doom9.org/codecs-203-1.htm
quicktime isn't even a pretender for qulality video. How does it helps you that it is a standard? Mpeg-1 is also a standard, so what? do we put away all xvid's and divx's and encode everything to Mpeg-1?
If you say that Xvid and Divx are toys - you are completerly unaware of what is going on in video codec developement for at least 5-10 years.
Check the trailers from Apples Quicktime web site. They are simply amazing (anyone remember the last official Star Wars trailer ? There were never a codec which offered that quality before).
Yes, i say that trailer - it is bad, BAD quality compaired to Xvid. I encode my movies with 480x272 resolution and i use even much lower bitrate 150-250kbits/sec and it is waaay much better than this trailers. Give me the soruce for the trailer and i will encode a same size clip with Xvid+mp3 which will look 5 times better , or it will look the same and will have half of the sieze)

I just want to see anyone who manages to convert 2-hour movie on one 128mb card with this lousey quicktime codec (mp4 container, quicktime video, aac audio) with 480 screen. it will look like complete and total crap, unlike Xvid.

And sorry, PPC folks, but this one is another reason why you took obviously the wrong choice . Better luck buying your next PDA.
Wrong again, i just quote myself for what i've said on the Brighthand

PPC is now eating dust!

Well, i hate PPC too, and not just because of reluctant idea of putting windows on handheld computer, i've tried and tested many of them. I would never use a PPC (if plms dies - i will stay with my T3 forever :-)
But, unfortunately PPC's are much more advanced in video area than palms. There is very good program called Betaplayer that is probably not worse than MMplayer (and of course waaay much batter than kinoma)
Did you know that HP 4700 with VGA screen can play movies WITHOUT ANY KIND OF CONVERSION , Including 2-cd encodes with enormous bitrate, like 3500kbps. I mean you just put your one -cd 700mb file or 2-cd and play it.
It also can play many known formats, like native Mpeg2 (dvd) stream.
best today's palms are deadly far from that point. Comparing 4700 with betaplayer to T5 with kinoma - is like comparying space shattle with bicycle.
just my 0.02

nickms

12-04-2004, 11:08 AM

Divx was originally a competeing video disc format for DVD but, it offered consumers much more limited usage rights. It was promoted by Circuit City and many studio bigwigs including George Lucas. The failure of Divx is theorised to be one of the reasons Lucas held back the original Star Wars trilogy for so long. He felt DVD was insufficiently secure. "ASF Divx" was a hack of MS' ASF format developed by two hackers who wanted to improve MS' poor quality format and create one that was more open to users. As a joke they titled their codec "Divx" in mockery of the original video disc format.

Steve Balmer was quoted in an interview as saying that he hoped that in the future no one would be able to use the internet without seeing an advirtisement for Microsoft. The reporter's observation? "Its nice to see Microsoft is still concered with the user's experience."

firedog341

12-04-2004, 10:07 PM

daver

12-04-2004, 10:26 PM

DivX aint MPEG 4 !!!! DivX just once was a trial of MS to destroy the MPEG 4 standard. But thewy gave up and DivX became just another codec. Real MPEG 4 becomes in the meantime more and more a predecessor of MPEG 2 (which is now used most often (either for SVCDS at the scene or simply at your bought DVD)).
But noone realized the amazing fact bout Kinoma 3 :

--- trumpets ---

Here we are. The Palm is the first PDA out there which is able to play iTunes songs on a PDA !!!! Means now you could play all your AAC and M4A songs you encoded with the industry standard player iTunes. And even better : By usin software like FairPlay you could even play your Apple Music store songs on your Palm. That means, that the iPod and this strange Motorola mobile isnt the only possibility anymore to hear your M4A songs while you are on the road. Thats simply amazing (please, PPC evangelists, stop whining now ;) ).

Another huge advantage is the direct support of M4V (MPEG 4 video). Encoded today my first MPEG 4 video (which is right now simply the best codec for portable devices (forget bout the other non standard codecs)) and the quality is simply amazing (way better then DivX or the old CinePac (which Kinoma 1 + 2 used)). MPEG 4 is the same codec Apple uses for all of the movie trailers on their Quicktime websites.
No offense or anything, but aren't you just a little too over-excited about Kinoma Player 3? I admit, MPEG-4 support is pretty cool, but it's nothing to to drag in PPC users for bragging rights. It's just another multimedia player, and i'm sure there are way better ones on their way. Until Kinoma (or any other program) can natively play any MPEG, AVI, WMV, MOV, etc. etc. at full framerate (ie. 30 frames/sec) and high bitrates (somewhere around 1150 to 2000-ish kbps) files, then Palm users can start bragging to PPC owners. But, until then, let's just tell PPC owners that Kinoma will be kicking their @sses soon.

daver

archangel

12-04-2004, 10:31 PM

I paid my $15 for it and I'm happy. It works perfectly with files converted with Sony's IC 1.5 so I don't have to pay for a program to do that. I have also had much better results using the Sony IC files than I have with getting MMPlayer to play back divx files. I tinker and tinker with the settings, but my encodes do not look any better and certainly don't play back smoother than the ones the Sony program converts.

If I still had my Clie this program wouldn't be a big deal since Sony's built in Movie Player does basically the same thing, but since I purchased a Tapwave its nice that I can still use the free Sony IC 1.5 to make my video files with and play them back on my Zodiac. BTW, I think the iTunes compatibility is excellent. I only rip my own CDs to iTunes so the fact it can't play back protected files is not an issue for me.

I think its worth the $15 price if you also have Sony IC 1.5 or 2.0 to pair up with it. It seems a heck of a lot more stable than MMPlayer as well. I haven't been able to crash the program yet.

louiscorpio

12-04-2004, 11:34 PM

Zork

12-05-2004, 10:55 AM

Junglemike, yep, you reencode all your useless XviD and DivX to MPEG 1, 2 or 4 cause you cant watch them otherwise on your MPEG hardware (like for example your DVD player). The problem with all this wannabee codecs which arent used at all is that they arent standardized (beside the lame quality of the wannabee codecs which is proven (check the awards MPEG 4 already got. Where is there something like 3ivX ?)). You cant play DivX, XviD or 3ivX on anything beside your PC or Mac. The playback on Palm or PPC is useless cause with every new codec or codec version things become incompatible again. So thos players for PDAs are completely useless cause they cant bein optimized the way Kinoma is optimized for MPEG 4 playback. DivX, XviD and 3ivX are nice toys. But with Kinoma we have a stable, optimized player which plays back for the first time industry standard movies (and for daver : The codecs you mentioned are all way worse then MPEG 4. So its useless to support WMV or any other antique codec which isnt used any more when you got the newest industry standard codec. So what you meant is nothing else like "Who need Blue Ray support when we got datasette and floppy disk support on all other systems" ;) ).

And one last one : You really quote the posting from the PPC freak ? He even mentioned that he play back DVDs on his PPC unconverted. So where did he insert his DVD at the PPC ;) ? And wheres the point of playin back a format which never were made for portable usage cause with its original bandwidth is way too large for such a purpose. And the quote were even more useless cause he compared with the old Kinoma player !!!!!

So sorry to tell you, but there is nothing comparable with Kinoma Player 3 EX on any other portable platform. The best industry standard video codec out there is supported and you could play back for the first time on any PDA all the iTunes and Apple Music Store songs avail. And yep, Apple Music Store songs could be played indeed too. Simply download the needed tool from http://hymn-project.org/ . And this is not useless reencoding (which would mean loss of quality). Its simply a removal of the consumer hostile DRM part of the Apple Music store songs. So they could be played back on your Palm w/o any problem (another PDA Palm premiere).

archangel

12-05-2004, 01:18 PM

Just to confirm you mean, Kinoma player 3 ex can play files coverted by IC 1.5/2.0??

I don't have 2.0 to test, but the full version works perfectly with files converted with IC 1.5 on a non Sony device.

Its also nice to know I can play itunes store files too if I want. Thanks for posting those links.

Some_guy

12-05-2004, 02:33 PM

I totally disagree with you Zork, MMplayer is faaar way better than Kinoma Player 3EX, MMplayer supports more and better formats than kinoma, Xvid uses high quality video on a very small space, I managed to get a 1h 27min video with super quality on 123megs (almost 1.5 meg per minute) and guess what, it plays even on a Tungsten T1, the same video with similar quality and resolution converted with kinoma producer 3 (using mp4 format) produces a almost 200 mbs video, the quality it´s not that good and it doesn´t even play on my Tungsten T1, it plays on a T3, but skipping many frames.
The only setting I´ve found that works with Kinoma 3 on my Tungsten T1 is encoding with a 160x160 resolution and 48kbps of bitrate, yes it suc*s!!!
That´s just for the video, the audio is what is even worst!!!
You´ve to convert all your mp3´s to AAC, that´s a tedious process and AAC audio is almost the same as mp3´s, MMplayer plays mp3 and ogg (my favorite)
Also, Kinoma player crashes on my Tungsten T when I try to play a file in native format, it rarely works and when it crashes, it resets itself, but errases all my apps.

Zork

12-05-2004, 02:53 PM

Some_guy, I got a 2 hour within 220 MB with Kinoma 3. And I got on my Zire 72 an amazing framerate of 30 fps (!!!). Thats cause Kinoma 3 is perfectly optimized for the Palm, while MMPlayer is just some fun project. And Kinoma 3 indeed also works perfect cause its a commercial product. And come on : Comparing MP3 with AAC isnt even lame. Noone out there claims that MP3 comes even near AAC. And thats even with smaller sample rates. AAC is the commercial standard out there. I still use MP3 for usual songs (RealOne plays them perfectly fine). But fact is, that the only format which you could buy and play on your PDA is AAC. And it could be played only on Palm and only with Kinoma 3. And BTW : AAC is the codec which is used by iTunes Music Store. The one which got almost two third of the complete online music market. And you dont even have to buy an iPod anymore to play your songs on the road. Awesome is too little for this update. Its simply breakthrough in terms of vieo and music playback.

same_guy

12-05-2004, 03:18 PM

Kinoma 3 may be a comercial product, too comercial btw, they just want to satisfy people with new palms and they dont care if their products behave well in old palms (like a Tungsten T1) and they know it, they know that kinoma 3 wont play a 320x320 video on a Tungsten T1, but do they tell us that before we buy their products???
Of course not!!!
While, on the other hand, MMplayer works with every os5 device out, also, it gets udpated more often than kinoma.

tempest929

12-05-2004, 04:05 PM

Until Kinoma (or any other program) can natively play any MPEG, AVI, WMV, MOV, etc. etc. at full framerate (ie. 30 frames/sec) and high bitrates (somewhere around 1150 to 2000-ish kbps) files, then Palm users can start bragging to PPC owners. But, until then, let's just tell PPC owners that Kinoma will be kicking their @sses soon.

daver

Um....except for the .MOV format, Betaplayer for the ppc can already do this...and at VGA resulotion.

And Zork....what's that, nothing compares with kinoma? Your right! No other player that I've used has video quality that bad! Yup, nothing else does compare to that proprietary piece of crap. MM player is still the best video player for palm. And your bragging about iTunes?....thats funny :D

Zork

12-05-2004, 06:04 PM

tempest929, Betaplayer is a piece of fun project. Same as with MMPlayer on the Palm. Its of no real purpose, cause there is noone where you could direct your complains too. And both of thos players arent supporting real wolrd formats (beside MMPlayer with MP3. Every other so called codec is just a toy with no real purpose). And BTW Kinoma supports .mov since years, cause all of the Kinoma used codecs are simply Quicktime codes :) . I used Cinepak since Quicktime 1.0 and MPEG 4 (the real, industry standard complaint one) since Quicktime 4 or 5. So if you talking bout industry standard complaint, best quality and even most stable player out there, there is nothing beside Kinoma Player 3 EX on any PDA.

But if you like to use a non standard, buggy, no support player with absolutely no purpose you are free to use Betaplayer :) . Its fine that PPC users dont have any other choice then continue to use the worst players out there. But if you like to play MPEG 4 movies, which offers simply the best industry standard quality out there for pocket devices you have to use the Kinoma Player 3 EX. And if you like to hear your online bought songs on your PDA ... again, get a Palm and Kinoma Player 3 EX. Thats the simple truth. Theres no point in havin a collection of codecs where the only real competition is in which got less purpose for the movie watching audience out there. What matters is the quality, the support and the fact that it uses the most recent ndustry standard codecs avail. And while there is no MPEG 5, its simply MPEG 4 right now. Perhaps thats why Apple choose to use m4a for iTunes and m4p for their Music Store, which is used by almost every online song buyer out there. And if you would complain bout the fact that DRM is nonsense I would be right with you. Thats why Hymn helps you, so that the iTunes Music Store songs are the one and only online music store songs out there which you could use with your PDA. Sorry, but thats completely impossible with every DRM WMA out there (even if reencoding or CD burning is allowed (which isnt with most DRM WMA offerings out there) cause you have to reencode your songs at least, which means horrible loss of quality (usin 2 destructive codecs for one file)). If you dont like that simple reality, check the complains bout users which fallen to DRM WMA tricks and now lost their money and didnt have the smallest chance at all to use their bought (!!) songs on their PDA. Thos are real problems and not whining bout the fact that the Palm is the only PDA movie player out there thx to Kinoma Player 3 EX. If you would stop bein jeaulious you would realize that this tool is simply a breakthrough for everyone of us and nothing to whine bout. There are still small probs with it (Kinoma Producer 3 and MPEG 2 on Mac is a dont :( ), but I never even dreamed bout getting a real player solution on any PDA (be it Palm or PPC), cause we all know the unsupported, non commercial trials you already mentioned too well.

archangel

12-05-2004, 06:30 PM

You guys bragging about MMPlayer crack me up. That is the buggiest piece of software I have ever used on a PDA. Kinoma 3Ex is not perfect but it is very stable and works with the Sony IC converter so its way ahead of MMPlayer for me. I've tinkered and tinkered with frame rates and bit rates and I can not get the smooth playback I'm getting with Kinoma. For the Palm OS Kinoma 3EX is a very nice option and no one is saying you can't use it along with MMPlayer. I have paid for the full versions of both.

I use iTunes as well so getting to play AAC files is a nice plus. Pocket Tunes has more options though so Kinoma is not a better music player it just has AAC support. MP3 quality doesn't compare at all to AAC. Only Ogg can output at the kind of quality that AAC can in smaller file sizes and Pocket Tunes does support that so I may still use Pocket Tunes for music. It is nice to have options though.

tempest929

12-05-2004, 10:54 PM

Zork,
Have you ever used beta player? You say thats it unsupported, and that there's no one that you can direct your complaints too. Try this...its homepage: http://betaplayer.corecodec.org/

I have a T3 and a VGA pocket pc. I would agree that MM palyer is buggy, and thats why I don't use my palm for video. The alternative would be Kinoma which looks like crap compared to beta player, pocket tv, or even windows media player. You say that iTunes is the most popular online music store....well sure. But honestly, where do you think the majority of music on peoples computers come from? I don't recall anyone ever asking for an iTunes player on a pda prior to this.

I see that you are obviously a palm enthusiest, and that's fine. Just don't make statements that are obviously untrue. ppc video players including beta player are very stable, and quite honestly wipe the floor with any palm video players that I've used. You think that this new Kinoma player is going to make ppc users druel....that its going to make them rethink their purchase? I'd say your dreaming.

troydl

12-05-2004, 11:14 PM

Whew i thought this advertisement for Kinoma would die out in a day or two :D

-------------
Junglemike <<-- you're right, last post on this :rolleyes:

AWS

12-05-2004, 11:41 PM

I have been trying the demo all day and am not too impressed. Hell the demo won't even let you play videos to see if you like it. Not only that, but when registered, it only plays the QT and .mp4. Nothing else. Need the producer like the IC to change formats, but that's another 30 bucks. Audio is seriously questionable. AAC...so what. No mp3, no wma, no wav. It only plays UNPROTECTED AAC, so it isn't a iPod. Gotta jump through hoops...burn to mp3, import to AAC. If you got to do all that, why pay for another player when any player can play the mp3. Maybe my vision will clear up, but right now, I can't see it.

I just wanted to enlighten you...
The whole point about iPod/iTunes and AAC is the well established fact that the AAC format is superior to MP3 for a given bit rate (in other words, a 128kb song in AAC is much better than in MP3). With iTunes you don't have to concern yourself with MP3 at all. You can convert MP3s if you want to convert an older library, but for any new rips, you wouldn't want to bother with MP3, just rib to AAC and enjoy the better quality.

Having explained that, Kinoma 3 EX now allows those of us with libraries of unprotected AAC files to use them on a Palm device. This is a great benefit for me as I never bought into the MP3 craze as the file size vs. quality were not too appealing. When the iPod/iTunes made the AAC format available I spent weeks doing painstaking comparison tests and I was convinced that AAC was finally an ACCEPTABLE choice. I got an iPod and ripped over 200 CDs to AAC and have been quite happy with the result.

The only thing lacking was a means to listen to my AAC files on my Palm whenever I did not want to carry along my whole song library on my iPod. Now I can take a few hours worth of music on my Palm and leave my iPod at home connected to my entertainment system for my wife to enjoy.

AWS

daver

12-06-2004, 12:09 AM

Zork,
I see that you are obviously a palm enthusiest, and that's fine. Just don't make statements that are obviously untrue.
haha, couldn't have said it better myself.

The whole point about iPod/iTunes and AAC is the well established fact that the AAC format is superior to MP3 for a given bit rate (in other words, a 128kb song in AAC is much better than in MP3). With iTunes you don't have to concern yourself with MP3 at all. You can convert MP3s if you want to convert an older library, but for any new rips, you wouldn't want to bother with MP3, just rib to AAC and enjoy the better quality.

I didn't know that, at all. But I'm still going to stick to my CDs. IMO, an iPOD (even the 40 GB one, which i think is the largest capacity right now) still can't hold all of my WAVs; I've got a 200 GB and 80 GB hard drive holding only MP3s. don't want to sound c0cky, but i never settle for anything less than WAV (which at the moment is the best quality file that Winamp version 2.90 can handle without plugins). If anyone knows of any better file format for music that doesn't compress and/or compromise quality for size, please tell me because my collection seems to be growing a little too quickly.

I know, i know, i'm pretty stupid for using only WAVs. What can I do? I love music :D

Spiral

12-06-2004, 04:30 AM

you can use monkey audio or lossless wma (of course I wouldn't be likely to use the latter). Both compress the music, but once decompressed, is identical to the wav in both sound and the data. The size will still be big, but saves a lot of space. Usually I rip my cd's to 192 kbps mp3's, because that's good enough for me, and there's a lot more good mp3 sorting software (tagscanner) and mp3 is the most standard music format.

Btw, what Zork said in November on PDArcade (http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2708&start=130)
Bout Kinoma : the fact is that it plays stuff way faster. And that PPC optimized players doesnt handle stuff well on the Palm isnt much of a surprise at all. So we still got a few hundred vs. 67 frames per second. Thats the simply fact...And usin MPEG 4 with a PDA is a little strange. Its way larger then usin real PDA codecs. Kinoma for example needs for a 2 hour movie appr. 600 MB. Indeed usin 320 * 240. You cant reach that with MPEG 4 w/o a huge lose of quality.
I've heard a few reports of low frame rates from high quality mpeg4 on Kinoma 3 EX myself. Of course MPEG 4 isn't a "real PDA codec" according to Zork because it'll take up too much space and have low quality. Then Kinoma 3 supports MPEG4 and Zork does an about face. MPEG4 is now the best PDA (and video) codec.

AWS

12-06-2004, 06:42 AM

...But I'm still going to stick to my CDs. IMO, an iPOD (even the 40 GB one, which i think is the largest capacity right now) still can't hold all of my WAVs; I've got a 200 GB and 80 GB hard drive holding only MP3s. don't want to sound c0cky, but i never settle for anything less than WAV (which at the moment is the best quality file that Winamp version 2.90 can handle without plugins). If anyone knows of any better file format for music that doesn't compress and/or compromise quality for size, please tell me because my collection seems to be growing a little too quickly.

I know, i know, i'm pretty stupid for using only WAVs. What can I do? I love music :D

My good man... If you read my message closely you will note that I wrote "ACCEPTABLE" in large letters. A standard MP3 is not acceptable. For me, a standard AAC (128bits) is ACCEPTABLE. If you want to save half the space AND have the same quality as WAV, then you should check out Apple's newest lossless compression codec that is part of a recent upgrade to iPods and iTunes. I haven't checked it out myself because I don't want to have such huge files but Apple claims... "Using AAC or MP3, you can store more than 100 songs in the same amount of space as a single CD. Discerning customers and audiophiles want true CD audio, and now iTunes can give you that quality with the new Apple Lossless encoder. You’ll get the full quality of uncompressed CD audio using about half the storage space. You can copy music in this format onto your iPod or iPod mini, to take perfect audio wherever you go." (http://www.apple.com/itunes/import.html). The one problem with this format is that you will probably be restricted to using iTunes on a PC/MAC or an iPod to listen to your music... at least for a while.

Also, you can get a 60GB iPod now.

Gero

12-06-2004, 10:17 AM

Zork.. do you work for Kinoma?.. are you one of their programmers?... You sound a little biased.. particularly in saying the DivX is such a toy project.. If it is such a toy project and such a poor format why are all the big electronic brands producing DVD players that can also play DivX and Xvid??????

Surely brand name companys like Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sony and JVC all producing hardware DVD players that play DivX and Xvid?... Surely this suggests that DivX is a main stream format irrelevcant of whether its a 'standard' format or not..

An example of dvd players that play DivX (and advertise that they do):

Pioneer DV-470S DVD Player
Samsung DVD-HD945 DVD Player
Sony DVP-NS955VS DVD Player
JVC XV-NP10S DVD Player
Sony DVP-NS765 DVD Player
JVC XV-NP10SB DVD Player
Toshiba SD340 DivX Multi-region DVD Player
Philips DVP 762 Multi Region Capable DivX DVD Player

I think you must know very little about video formats to say that DivX and Xvid are such 'toy' projects.

Regards, Gero

daver

12-06-2004, 11:05 AM

If you read my message closely you will note that I wrote "ACCEPTABLE" in large letters. A standard MP3 is not acceptable. For me, a standard AAC (128bits) is ACCEPTABLE. If you want to save half the space AND have the same quality as WAV, then you should check out Apple's newest lossless compression codec that is part of a recent upgrade to iPods and iTunes.
Hmm... is the Apple codec free? as in, i don't have to download all the iTune software for it to work and somehow make it think i have an iPOD?

Also, you can get a 60GB iPod now.
Wish i could afford one. Still way too expensive. I've finished working off the year's tuition, and still owe the university like $5000 for next term. :mad:

AWS

12-06-2004, 11:57 AM

Hmm... is the Apple codec free? as in, i don't have to download all the iTune software for it to work and somehow make it think i have an iPOD?

I don't know if the codec can be extracted and used in another program. I don't think so. I think, in order to use it, you would need to download/install Apple's iTunes (Windows and Mac versions available). Since all your ripped CDs are in WAV format already, I think you can just do a bulk conversion. iTunes will not change your original files, just convert and make a second copy of each. Since iTunes is a free download it wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

I want to also point out that you don't have to have an iPod to use iTunes. iTunes is a standalone PC/MAC music jukebox application. The iPod just allows you to sync your music library to a portable device. I run iTunes on my laptop and use it just like MusicMatch Jukebox or WinAmp.

Fishie_Flop

12-07-2004, 04:06 AM

archangel

12-07-2004, 06:13 AM

Actually its pretty easy to play all your iTunes store downloads on it. You just run one of the many programs available to get rid of the DRM and they play perfectly.

It still has a ways to go as far as playing music goes. They need to give playlist support and background play, but it does work fine with iTunes store downloads once you run a program like iOpener that takes about two minutes and gets rid of the DRM.

Gero

12-07-2004, 06:31 AM

Well I just forked out the £20 for producer and player 3 EX and I'm a little bit dissapointed so far.

1. Music playback
I transfered a load of 128 ACC iTunes songs (unprotected ones) onto my SD card and played them back in Player 3 EX.. the most noticable thing is that the play with skips and jumps especially at the start (on my T3), yet play back perfectly on my iPod mini. Also, as Archangel points out, their is no background play support as yet and no support for play lists.. It seems as if the programme/T3 is struggling to play them.. yet pocket tunes has always played MP3's perfectly.. even with the T3 underclocked down to 100 mhz.

A nice touch is however that the player supports album art during playback

2. Photo viewer
Opens photos nice and quickly and at least as fast as my experience with Acid Image or GRXPro.

You can zoom in and out of the photos with the 5-way nav up and down buttons, but you can only progress from one photo to the next by tapping the small arrows in the top right hand corner of the screen, which is really annoying. I would assume that you should be able to do this with the left and right direction buttons of the 5-way nav pad.

3. Movie playback
Havent had a chance to play with this uyet.. but I will tonight and see how it plays back existing DivX movies i have on my pc etc...

Regards, Gero

Zork

12-07-2004, 04:36 PM

Gero, DivX is just a add on for a few players out there. Check your DVD store for the players supporting DivX and the ones just supporting MPEG. You clearly see that this is just a addon for a real small minority. And the prob with Divx and XviD is that their isnt any standard at all. I once thought bout buyin an DivX player (then when only 2 were totally avail). Lucky me ... I didnt bought it, cause a few months later XviD were done and thos movies were completely incompatible with thos 2 DivX DVD players. And the codecs arent compatible and you dont like to change your software every few months just to play few movies. Its simply pointless to use any of this toy stuff, cause there arent any standards. You could afford such a chaos only on your PC where DLin new codecs every few weeks aint much of a prob. And where the fact that there isnt the smallest standard for the used audio stream (sometimes its AC3, sometimews its MP3, sometimes its AAC ... are thos people doin that movies simply braindead ? We are users and not install monkeys). Its simply a toy w/o any real purpose. Sorry bout that, but DivX, Xvid and 3ivX clearly shows how important standardization is. DivX had its window of opportunity, but with the missing standards its gone forever.

Spiral, this statement were made before Kinoma Producer 3 were released. You are free to test it and realize the difference (cause til then there werent any industry standard MPEG 4 support on any PDA).

daver, Quicktime is free to download ( http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ ) and the MPEG 4 codec is part of it (Apple had to fight a long time to do so ;) ). iTunes is also free to download ( http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/ ) and you dont have to buy the iPod to use it.

Fishie_Flop, please read the full thread. I already posted here the URL for hymn ( http://hymn-project.org/ ). This is right now the only DRM removal tool which is compatible with the recent version of iTunes (right now its fully compatible with 4.6 and should also work with 4.7). Usin this tool you could play each and every iTunes Music Store song on your PDA. And MP3 is used thx to illegal DLs way moreoften then m4a indeed. But you got better quality buy usin m4a instead of mp3. And now with the Kinoma Player 3 EX its for the first time possible that you play it back on your PDA (Palm exclusive - and the PPC freaks already start whining as you could easily read here - "Who needs MPEG 4 ? And iTunes is trash anyway" :)))) . Its fun to read their whining). To be honest : Til now I also used mainly MP3, cause it were pointless to encode music as m4a (beside its way better quality and smaller size !), cause only the iPod were able to play it back on the road. And I dont carry around 2 devices supporting the same functionality. Life isnt a Sierra adventure, where you got limitless pockets ;) . But now that the Kinoma Player 3 EX supports this format its sinmply stuborn to still use MP3 for your PDA. One disadvantage I didnt tested yet is the missing support of playlists (just tested one song to compare it) according to Gero. Thats some major prob and Kinoma will surely patch that prob soon (cause how to use a portable music player w/o playlists ? ).

Zork

12-07-2004, 04:43 PM

daver, the standard for loseless audio compression is FLAC (Free Loseless Audio Codec). You could get the according codec for windows at http://flac.sourceforge.net/ . Theres also a MacOS version at http://www.danrules.com/macflac/ .
You could also try out MPEG 4 with 128 kbit/sec by DLin Quicktime 6.5.2 from http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ . That way you got the best compressed quality avail right now. And the DL is free indeed.

Tempest929, MPEG 4 industry standard playback ? No ? m4a industry standard playback ? No ? But all this industry standard features are avail exclusive on Palm OS devices ? Thx, next one ... Almost forgot : Please read the article here bout the Sony PSP (just the future handheld gaming standard). Its supporting which codec as I already mentioned in this thread ? Yep, MPEG 4. So you REALLY cant play back MPEG 4 on your antique PPC ? Surely some wise decision :) .

Fishie_Flop

12-07-2004, 05:03 PM

Zork my Sigmarion3 plays MPEG4 from within Windows Media Player even.
The Zaurus line of Linux PDA´s have had a mediplayer that plays back MPEG4 files since 2004.

Why must you spred your stupidity over so many messageboards?

Zork

12-07-2004, 05:57 PM

Fishie_Flop, we talkin bout industry standard MPEG 4, stup*d. Not some brainfree toy which isnt compatible to given standards. And Windows Media Player never offered real MPEG 4 compatibility, cause Microsoft (in difference to Apple) were never able to make some deal with the Motion picture group and just included a limited, custom version. Never wondered why you arent able to play back even simply m4a (which is simply a MPEG 4 audio stream - just in case that you arent familiar even with the most basic facts) with the Windows media player ?

For moderation : Could you avoid such postings which are only targeted to destroy a useful and smart thread ? PPC evangelists like him already destroyed threads at other web sites. So its surely some good idea to delete such postings to avoid another web site bein destroyed by such freaks.

daver

12-07-2004, 06:10 PM

For moderation : Could you avoid such postings which are only targeted to destroy a useful and smart thread ? PPC evangelists like him already destroyed threads at other web sites. So its surely some good idea to delete such postings to avoid another web site bein destroyed by such freaks.
Bout time somebody stood up. Let's keep this site alive by not killing off all the threads with PPC people bashing Palms.

Now, a little bit of a side track if you guys don't mind:
Can Kinoma Producer convert Macromedia Flash videos for a TJ37? Because TJ series models don't support Flash files natively.

treffmeister

12-07-2004, 06:48 PM

Guys, for the record, iTunes and the iPod absolutely suck! They have no features, especially not ease of use, (you have to install iTunes to actually put music on the iPod and taking it off is a story involving costly 3rd party programs.) There are so many better alternatives it's not funny anymore! People who say "yeah, I want an iPod" sicken me.

troydl

12-07-2004, 07:05 PM

Bout time somebody stood up. Let's keep this site alive by not killing off all the threads with PPC people bashing Palms.

Now, a little bit of a side track if you guys don't mind:
Can Kinoma Producer convert Macromedia Flash videos for a TJ37? Because TJ series models don't support Flash files natively.

Fishie flop owns a TH55 doesnt he?

I believe he and the others were just trying to clear the "air" of the hype. Kinoma 3 is definitely better than the old product but as to Kinoma's (and related) capability overhyping.... Meanwhile dissing other MPEG4 implementations (and people) just to prop up kinoma doesnt do anyone good.

Most of the features included in MPEG-4 are left to individual developers to implement. This means that there are very few complete implementations of the MPEG-4 standard. Anticipating this, the developers (of the standard) added the concept of "Profiles," allowing various capabilities to be grouped together.

MPEG-4 consists of several standards—termed "Layers"—as follows.

Layer 1 describes synchronization and multiplexing of video and audio.
Layer 2 is a compression codec for video signals.
Layer 3 is a compression codec for perceptual coding of audio signals.
Layer 4 describes procedures for testing compliance.
Layer 5 describes systems for Software simulation.
Layer 6 describes Delivery Multimedia Integration Framework (DMIF).
Layer 10 is an advanced codec for video signals also called H.264.

Analyzing the way ISO defines its standards then DivX and Xvid are MPEG4 too, it just so happens that ISO (or M.P.E.G.) also released a codec that can be downloaded freely or bought on a CD that may be an implementation of one or more profiles.

Ok so back to kinoma 3. So would the features without the hype and the problems that people encounter justify the price or will it depend on how much extra dollars you have (stopgap type for those with money) or should we just wait for the next release (if you dont have the money to throw at it) of whatever software there is that would hopefully be able to play anything we can get our hands on.

daver

12-07-2004, 08:05 PM

Fishie flop owns a TH55 doesnt he?

I believe he and the others were just trying to clear the "air" of the hype. Then why is he talking about a Linux PDA in a Palm forum? Anyway, if he's clearing up the air as you said, then that's fine by me. Just keep the forum clean of PPC, since they have their own forums.

Guys, for the record, iTunes and the iPod absolutely suck! They have no features, especially not ease of use, (you have to install iTunes to actually put music on the iPod and taking it off is a story involving costly 3rd party programs.) There are so many better alternatives it's not funny anymore! People who say "yeah, I want an iPod" sicken me.
What the heck does this have to do with the thread? No one is saying they want an iPOD, we're just talking about the software and certain codecs it uses, etc etc. if you hate iPODs so much, why don't you take it somewhere else, or to Apple? This thread is about Kinoma, so please keep it somewhat related to the thread (i learnt my lesson - still got bite marks on my butt).

Meanwhile dissing other MPEG4 implementations (and people) just to prop up kinoma doesnt do anyone good.Yeah, I think it's time we went back to Kinoma Player/Producer itself, and stopped fighting over which player is better (especially PPC owners; nothing personal, but it is a Palm OS forum after all), without any proof.
For example, anyone who wants to voice out why it's better, it might be handy to have an actual reason why it's better, i.e. specs/features. It's a little tiring having people just posting up empty claims that one player is better than the other, and that all others suck, etc etc.

daver

Zork

12-07-2004, 10:56 PM

troydl, yep, thats the difference. But this codec from the Motion Picture Group is the one which is part of any complete MPEG 4 package. And that one is part so far only of Quicktime (which werent easy for Apple to implement - mainly cause of the licensing fee for MPEG 4. Thats also the reason why there is no full MPEG 4 codec avail for any unmodified Windows out there (indeed beside the one which got Quicktime installed)). And movie made with that codec works so far only with the Kinoma Producer 3. And thats IMHO the large step forward. Full MPEG 4 compatibility. Especially facing the fact, that Sony now includes real MPEG 4 into his PSP too, its clear that MPEG 4 becomes the next industry standard after MPEG 2, which virtually anyone of us uses on his recent devices.

So DivX, XviD, etc. are nice, but they will go the way of BetaMax and Video 2000, cause they arent compatible with the codec released by the Motion Picture Group. And IMHO they destroyed themself by missing the goal of building a standard (I really liked to buy a DivX capable DVD player. But then XviD were released and I knew that this wasnt the end of the line).

So thats the first part of the "hype" of Kinoma Player 3 EX. The other part of the "hype" is right now useful. The iPod costs within Euro 249,- for the Mini and 529,- for the Photo. Thats a lot of money. Thats the first aspect. But almost as important is the fact that we dont got infinite pockets at our jackets ;) . Thats the main reason why I dont got an iPod and most likely never will (a mobile and the Palm is more then enough to carry around). On the other side we cant ignore the simple fact, that Apple got a monopoly on online music stores. They got appr. two third of the online music market store. And buyin music online is the only legal way to get music beside buyin CDs (which are more and more copy protected thx to the braindead music industry). And here comes the kewl fact : You dont have to buy anymore an iPod to hear the music almost any legal online music store customer hear. You simply have to put it onto your Palm and could hear it there too. And this fact cant be hyped enough. It means for the first time, that you could hear iTunes Music Store songs on a portable device w/o buyin an iPod. IMHO thats simply awesome. Not that I want to defend that customer hostile DRM stuff used by Apple at the iTunes Music Store. But with Hymn this problem is solved and you could hear all your songs at their original unreencoded quality. And given the fact that the iTunes Music Store is a monopoly at the online music market this is some real important feature noone other on the market offers. Some small sideeffect of that is also that we arent limited anymore to MP3. MP3 were nice then to encode our Audio CDs, but m4a offers way better quality and uses less space on our SD cards. But indeed not everything is w/o a problem here. Thx to Gero we found out that we cant use playlists with Kinoma Player 3 EX. And to be honest : W/o a playlist support it really limits the use of a audio player. But at least some huge first step were made. And thats what im talkin bout at this thread.

Just one note for treffmeister : iTunes ist the most ease of use audio software out there. I dont know what you talkin bout that its hard to use. And you get iTunes free with your iPod (or free to DL). So where is the prob then to install ? And bout getting music from the iPod to your PC : You are correct bout that. But guess who is the source of this prob ? The same source which caused DRM on songs. The brainfree folks from our beloved music industry. And guess what : You cant do that on any other DRM complaint player. And for the iPod you got at least your mentioned 3rd party tools which allow you to bypass this customer hostile feature. Seems like Apple werent that exact at implementing DRM and other protection schemes at their iTunes package. Cause otherwise we wont have Hymn to remove the DRM section from iTMS songs (indeed w/o reencoding and therefor quality lose) and we wont have tools like the ones described at http://www.engadget.com/entry/7166385640773718/ which puts the songs back from the iPod to any Windows PC or Mac. Forget bout that with any WMA DRM song or any WMA DRM player. That one will be locked from you, the money spenting customer, forever.

Fishie_Flop

12-08-2004, 04:52 AM

Daver, Zork here is trashing everything else and making statements that have no basis in reality, his posts are riddled with misinformation and lies, he claims Kinoma EX3 is the first and only PDA movie player to incorporate MPEG4 while that simply is not true, and I get blasted for setting him straight?

In any case, what good are so called industry standards if no one else is using them?
Zork throws INDUSTRY STANDARD around as if it is some holy grail, yet look online and you will see that no one is using those formats online for free stuff and for DVDs or bought music or music CDs you still have to do conversions yourself so it doesnt matter one bit since the end user still has to convert the files so it plays on a PDA.

OH BTW Zork, the industry standard external storage for PDA´s has shifted from CF to SD never at any point was Memory Stick a standard, isnt that a strike against Sony?
And what makes you think that the PSP will be an industry standard portable videogame console?

Sounds like your talk about STANDARDS is just you wanting monopolies.

So where is your love for Microsoft then.
After all they try to achieve what you support so much.

SuperSaiyan

12-08-2004, 05:39 AM

Actually, PSP will be MP4 compatible.....which, I guess, makes it industry standard.
Anyhow, why is this such a big friggen deal? We're talking PDA's with very, very small screens. If we go to 60" HiDef Plasma flatscreens with 6.1 surround sound....okay.

In the end, don't we just trial the apps we're interested in and get what we want anyway?! I'm not a big VID Freak so I just wanted something that worked pretty well without too much hassle involved in putting some flicks on my T5. MMPlayer didn't really impress me and I'm quite happy with Kinoma Player 3EX and Producer. Others my find they feel the opposite.......GREAT. Some of you are making this into a BFD when it's not.

Everyone caught their breath yet?...........FIRE AWAY LOL ;)

-SS

daver

12-08-2004, 10:53 AM

Daver, Zork here is trashing everything else and making statements that have no basis in reality, his posts are riddled with misinformation and lies, he claims Kinoma EX3 is the first and only PDA movie player to incorporate MPEG4 while that simply is not true, and I get blasted for setting him straight?
I'm not blasting you, I'm just saying we should keep this thread Palm based, and not bring in PPC owners to kill off yet another thread in this forum.

In any case, what good are so called industry standards if no one else is using them?
Zork throws INDUSTRY STANDARD around as if it is some holy grail, yet look online and you will see that no one is using those formats online for free stuff and for DVDs or bought music or music CDs you still have to do conversions yourself so it doesnt matter one bit since the end user still has to convert the files so it plays on a PDA.

That, I'll agree with.

End the end, don't we just trial the apps we're interested in and get what we want anyway?! I'm not a big VID Freak so I just wanted something that worked pretty well without too much hassle involved in putting some flicks on my T5. MMPlayer didn't really impress me and I'm I quite happy with Kinoma Player 3EX and Producer. Others my find they feel the opposite.......GREAT. Some of you are making this into a BFD when it's not.
culdn't have said it better

Fishie_Flop

12-08-2004, 11:14 AM

Well I just did it to set him straight, nothing wrong with prefering Palm(I am platform agnostic), I myself dont have a PPC at the moment although I do use two WinCE machines(a Sigmarion3 that has a widescreen 800by480 res screen and kicks *** for videos and productivity and a MS smartphone)

The Clie TH-55 is my third PalmOS machine I bought this year(TungstenE and Zire 72 were the other ones) and the third Clie I have oned so far.

He starts by advocating Kinoma player 3EX as being the first one to have MPEG4, yet its not true, my Sigmarion had it long ago and the Linux based Zauri have had it for over 4 years.
Its not the first time he used crap like that either, on PDArcade he did the same with older versions of Kinomaplayer and said it proved the superiority of the Palm platform becouse Kinoma got 100fps on some low res ugly movie, he then continued on to blast everyone who disagreed and called PDArcade a site with an anti Palm agenda etcetera.

Zork has a rich history of talking bullshit on a lot of forums.

archangel

12-08-2004, 12:25 PM

Yeah, this thread has gone off in a lot of weird areas. I simply wanted to point out that I was pretty happy with the movie results on Kinoma and found it more stable than MMPlayer. I personally don't know or care if MPEG4 is the best codec. The MST3K DAP uses xvid for their encodes and the quality is amazing. Those encodes are easily converted to MPEG4 so I really don't care what people use.

Are Pocket PCs better at movie playback? Probably, but again I don't care and it doesn't effect whether or not I want to use Kinoma on my Tapwave.

All this one codec is better than another and Palm is better or worse than Pocket PC stuff is a bunch of crap and has nothing to do with anything. Save your personal PDA bashing agendas for one of those lame PPC vs Palm threads that pop up all the time.

This is about the Kinoma Player 3EX for Palm. Opinions on what you like or hate about it should be the purpose of this thread.

So far I am happy with its video playback, but the music playback needs improvement. Playlist and background support is a must. I've already emailed Kinoma about it.

Fishie_Flop

12-08-2004, 05:51 PM

Hey Zork, remember when you said this

Quoting from Zork:Bout Kinoma : the fact is that it plays stuff way faster. And that PPC optimized players doesnt handle stuff well on the Palm isnt much of a surprise at all. So we still got a few hundred vs. 67 frames per second. Thats the simply fact. And 640 * 480 offers better quality then 480 * 320 isnt that huge surprise neither . But the PPC standard resolution is still 320 * 240 and we all know that this means worse quality on almost every PPC out there as on every Palm OS 5 device out there. And usin MPEG 4 with a PDA is a little strange. Its way larger then usin real PDA codecs. Kinoma for example needs for a 2 hour movie appr. 600 MB. Indeed usin 320 * 240. You cant reach that with MPEG 4 w/o a huge lose of quality. Sorry, bout im doin that stuf on a weekly base cause im watchin tv epsiodes on y Palm usin the Kinoma Producer

Again:And usin MPEG 4 with a PDA is a little strange. Its way larger then usin real PDA codecs.

Hmm what changed there Zork?
Why do you suddenly shout about INDUSTRY STANDARDS and how great MPEG4 is when in the past you degraced it as not good for portables and not a real PDA codec?

The full post can be found here btw: http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2708&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=zork&start=120

About two thirds down on this page in the 10 page thread

troydl

12-08-2004, 07:27 PM

'Am getting really curious here, hey Zork-man, you work for kinoma or something?

Fishie_Flop

12-08-2004, 08:37 PM

I doubt it.
If he would work for Kinoma he would have known it would be part of the player they were working on and he wouldnt have made negative comments about it.

jjesusfreak01

12-08-2004, 09:06 PM

TH-55 owners should probably stay out of this thread, its too dangerous. We can already play mov, mpg1, and mpg4(w/ VZ-90 codec) files. We can play mp3, and atrac (w/ magicgate memorystick). Oh, the VZ-90 codecs are optimized to play specifically on my pdas processor. So are the other codecs, for audio and video. Most Palms cant do this, but for TH-55 owners, there is no other solution, period.

On another note, Zork has 290 posts (at the time of my post), and I wonder why he has suddenly turned on us. I wouldnt mind an apology for the stern remarks. Maybe not to me, but to the ones the remarks were directed at. There aint nothin that great about kinoma, and there wont be a good player for all devices, unless the have insane processors, and can handle any wierd codec imaginable. For anything out now, the program will have to be optimized by palm, or sony, or whoever.

Fishie_Flop

12-09-2004, 09:04 AM

Exactly, couldnt agree more.

Mas

12-09-2004, 09:28 AM

Perhaps ill come back to this thread and see the future of it all when Sony offers the NZ90 in english here in the US. The big, bright screen would really be a nice plus over what I have now. With its processor, battery life and and Flash memory options of it, at that point, i'd prob want the best quality video player that I can get.

jjesusfreak01

12-09-2004, 09:51 AM

With the way Zork threw around the optimized term here, he'd probably be willing to admit that he believed mpeg4 wasnt a good pda codec because it wasnt optimized for palm devices, but that has changed, because it now is optimized for pdas. The regular mp4 codec probably would never be able to run on a pda because its way too complex. Just a thought.

Fishie_Flop

12-09-2004, 10:59 AM

In which case the implementation in Kinomaplayer EX3 isnt an INDUSTRY STANDARD so he looses the argument either way.

SuperSaiyan

12-09-2004, 06:55 PM

Aside from the Kinoma/Zork bashing............
I've been using IC1.5 to convert 60min WMV's to .MQV's and they play/look great on my T5 with Player 3EX.
Thought a positive post was overdue :)

archangel

12-09-2004, 08:24 PM

I tested Kinoma Producer 3 compared to Sony IC 1.5. I used xvid encodes that were very high quality. Obviously recompressing this will cause some quality loss, but the Kinoma encodes I did on High Quality were flat terrible. The Sony encodes on High Quality were slighty inferior to the original, but looked much, much better.

While I like Kinoma Player 3 EX for video the Producer app has a long way to go. At the very least a $30 encoder should be able to compare to something Sony gives away with their PDAs.

I'm not sure if this is just an issue with Xvid and I plan on trying some different file types, but my first tests of Kinoma Producer are not very exciting.

Fishie_Flop

12-09-2004, 08:43 PM

No Kinoma bashin here, I have used the program myself and it mostly did what its supposed to do(altough for my movie needs I have my Sigmarion3), I am still eagarly awaiting a reply from Zork though.

daver

12-09-2004, 10:24 PM

I am still eagarly awaiting a reply from Zork though.
Tell me about it. I'll be sitting at my computer just waiting for Zork's reply. :)

Ok, one more try at this:

Will Kinoma Producer convert flash movies into ANYTHING compatible with Kinoma Player 3 or 3 EX, or even Kinoma Player 2? Or (for those who know stuff about IC 1.1/1.5) will Sony's bundled converter work as well?
Thanks

daver

SuperSaiyan

12-09-2004, 10:36 PM

I do know that I have been using IC1.5 to convert video that plays just fine on Player 3 EX.....but again, I'm not a VidWiz that deals with every format out there. I'm just content that I can get everything I want to see on my T5 with what I have. ;)

Zork

12-10-2004, 06:16 PM

Fishie_Flop, you start your stup*d lies here again. You already destroyed a thread at PPCArcade that way, so simple get lost (or kicked by administration, cause this is simply a Palm forum and no PPC forum).

Bout the fact that you are clueless : There never was a full MPEG 4 implementation on any platform, cause MPEG 4 has to be licensed (its licensed from Frauenhofer IIS). Its that easy. Thats the reason why you have to pay to use Kinoma Player EX 3. Only Apple set an contract to offer a full MPEG 4 codec to users via Quicktime for free(recent one is 6.5.2). So please ... if you dont know the most basics bout some stuff, get lost. So yes, Kinoma Player is the first and only MPEG 4 player for PDAs avail out there. And as already stated : MPEG 4 is a industry standard. That means, that you could use it on any MPEG 4 compatible device. Right now MPEG 2 is used most often, but MPEG 4 is for transmitted data already standard (almost all your digital sattelite data are MPEG 4). Its also already stated here that the next handheld standard, the Sony PSP, will use MPEG 4. So like it or not, thats the way things are working. And noone here at this thread is interested anymore in your whining that MPEG 4 isnt avail for PPC. Noone here cares. Thats simply your problem. Youve chosen the wrong PDA ... so live with it. Start whining at PDArcade, which you already destroyed (most of your postings at PDArcade are already deleted or censored ... perhaps theres a chance that it will be not dominated anymore by some brainfree PPC fanatics).

And for your quote from PDArcade forum : there never were a MPEG 4 codec avail for a PDA before Kinoma Player 3 EX. So the MPEG 4 versions are stated were all bout the toy subsets which are avail for PPCs and other portable trash. With the recent implementation of MPEG 4 for the Kinoma Player 3 EX you got real MPEG 4 on your PDA. So sorry, but posting this quote simply shows that you dont even know the most basic facts bout codecs for PDAs.

Enough time wasted with just another PPC evangelist. Check your troll friends again at PDArcade :) .

Zork

12-10-2004, 06:18 PM

daver, read the manual ;) :

--- begin of text ---

You can encode Flash content (.swf files) into the Kinoma format. However, only the video portion of the Flash file is encoded. Neither the audio nor the interactivity is converted.

--- end of text ---

tempest929

12-10-2004, 07:06 PM

Fishie_Flop, you start your stup*d lies here again. You already destroyed a thread at PPCArcade that way, so simple get lost (or kicked by administration, cause this is simply a Palm forum and no PPC forum).

Where are Fishie_Flop's lies here again? It seems to me that me that you've been the only one speading lies in this thread. Didn't you also bring Pocket PC's into this discussion in the first place by saying things like:

(please, PPC evangelists, stop whining now ).

and

Sorry for all the fanatics of other tools out there, but since Kinoma 3 there is only one movie and song player avail for any PDA (and I werent a Kinoma fan before this one, cause even that Cinepak offered fine quality it had a lot of sync probs). And sorry, PPC folks, but this one is another reason why you took obviously the wrong choice . Better luck buying your next PDA.

Some of us here were just trying to correct you're lies, but it appears that anyone who dissagrees with you is a ppc evangelist.

Fishie_Flop

12-10-2004, 07:22 PM

Exactly and just for the record, Zork is the one who had some of his posts deleted at PDArcade, not me.

As I stated before, the TH-55 is the third PalmOS machine I purchased this year and if another one comes along that I fancy at what I feel is the right price I will most likely purchase that as well, just as I do with other devices, if I like it and can afford it and feel its worth my funds I will buy it.

Fact remains for serious movie watching Palms are second rate, so are most PPCs for that matter.
If I want good quality movies I watch em on my Sigmarion and it doesnt matter what format they are in.

That being said and I repeat myself here yet again, for the end user it means diddly squat that MPEG4 is what you call and INDUSTRY STANDARD, we dont watch digital satelite feeds or High Definition broadcast quality video on our PDA´s.
We watch compareatively low res movies on small pocketable devices that lack the procesor power(and not to mention screens and storage requirements) to play those movies so no matter what we will have to convert those movies to maximise their useage for portable devices.
We NEED to convert them anyway so for the end user, for you and me it doesnt matter one iota what gets converted to what as long as the end result is a good looking movie that plays smoothly within the limits of our devices.

Fishie_Flop

12-10-2004, 07:24 PM

Oh BTW SuperSaiyen a few posts above this proves wt I was saying, he doesnt care what doies what and what codecs are used or whatever as long as he can see what he wants he is happy.

Fishie_Flop

12-10-2004, 07:31 PM

As for the PSP, Zork what makes the PSP a STANDARD?

You know that I am a videogame journalist(if you want I can provide a picture of me posing with Ken Kutaragi and a PSP) and from where I am standing I see Nintendo selling 6 million DS portables by the time Sony can manufacture half a million PSPs.
I also see Nintendo´s capabilities to produce two million DS consoles per month while the PSP manufacturing capacities at the moment stand at (Sony´s own estimates) approximatly 3 million for the first year.

So please tell me what makes PSP a STANDARD.

junglemike

12-10-2004, 09:35 PM

Ok, guys, i don't have much time so i won't quote all those meaningless replies that Zork wrote.
I've made a little test - comparison between Kinoma 3Ex quality and Xvid quality.
(for those who prefer Divx5 to Xvid - the is no much diff. anyway)
I suppose you first watch sample files i prepared and then we'll talk about it.

-=Kinoma3EX vx Xvid comparison=-
These files are 30 seconds each, since Kinoma win't let me encode more. I treid to test the "toughness" of the codecs - Xvid mpeg4 with .avi format and Kinoma's mpeg4 (quicktime) in .mp4 format (container, to be correct). by "toughtness" i mean very difficult conditions - which means that i try to put more video into less size - i.e. I used pretty low bitrate - 160kbits/sec. Of course anyone understands that *any* codec can provide superior quality, if you don't limit it's final file size. Even mpeg1 or with huffyuv i can get super quality, but 10minutes of will take 100mb or more. Even if in the pc area - you don't care about it, in the PDA area you really should - since our flash cost money (especially sony sticks :-)). That's why i used generally low bitrate - to see what Kinoma and Xvid can do under such conditions. For example , if you have 128mb card, and you want to put 2-hour movie there - it will require you to use video bitrate of about 120kbits/sec.
Here are the samples, probably i will make some more with even lower bitrate.
I really hope that files will open. Host server doesn't support direct downloading, so by clicking on the files - you will be prompted to click on "click here to save this file...."
If the files doesnt' work - anybody PLEASE tell me where i can put some files for download - they are really small - just about 800kb each.
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Xvid.320.160kbps.avi
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Xvid.480.160kbps.avi
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Kinoma320.160kbps.mp4
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Kinoma480.160kbps.mp4
So what do you say? quicktime completely fails to delive any kind of "quality" in such low bitrates. While Xvid does it's job pretty well. The 320resolution file of course looks better (from point of quality and absence of artifacts) than 480 res file. This is because, in 480 res file more information (pixels) are compressed to the same size.
For those of you who can't playback Xvid .avi files or mp4 files or can't download them i made a screenshot

Xvid:
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Xvid.jpg

Kinoma:
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Kinoma.jpg

Now let's talk a bit.
I consider myself to be of some knowledge about video encoding. I've been making hi-quality DVD rips since Divx 3.11 was the best thing on the scene. And i have certain uderstanding how these things work, and it is NOT like Zork says.
First , as i already repled in another theread, Quicktime mpeg-4 (which used in Kinoma) can't be even considered for hi-quality porposes. It provides much much worse quality/size ratio than other Mpeg-4 codes, such as:
Xvid
Divx4/5
SBC (Divx3 in SBC mode - smart bitrate constrol still 20% of movies on P2P notworks use this codec)
3Vix
FFvFw
nero digital
Rv9 (real video)
Vp6
Wm9 (windows media)
If anybody wants to see well-known codec comparison, visit this page:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/codecs-203-1.htm

Kinoma can't stand even slightest chance against any of these codecs (especially Divx5 and Xvid)
by the way, i noticed somebody mentioned where Divx came from.
Well, there is suge difference between Divx 4/5 and Divx3
Divx 3 (3.11, alpha :-) is hack of original Mp43 (microsoft mpeg 4 version 3 codec) It was not only hacked so it could be used on non-microsoft programs, like VirtualDub, but also was speed-optimized.
Divx4/5 -is completely independent project, all code written from the scratch, but it backwards compatible with Dvix3.11
The Most important thing for a codec to produce more or less hi quality - is at least 2-pass compression , Kinoma doesn't do this - that's why you see huge squares (makroblocks) on the kinoma screeenshot.- With such "brilliand " one-pass solution - it is impossible to redistribute bitrate in a wise way - so the result will look like crap, unless you use huge bitrate, like 800kbits/ sec (and buy a 1gb memory stick :-)

When Zork says that Divx and Xvids are toys and there are no standards -
this is total and complete bull$hit, jst open your eyes,
In what format you can find movies today anywhere (like on p2p networs) ?
- 99% of them made using Divx5/SBC/Xvid and not quicktime's mpeg4
and the rest -1% is also not quicktime - but other formats.
have you EVER seen a good looking (compared to DVD q-ty)full movie on a single cd in quicktime format? - Of course not. This is not possible, Just like it is not possible with Mpeg1.
What format hardware players support?
Divx and Xvid. not quicktime
So if Zork says that quicktime is widely used and Xvid, divx are toys - i can give only one conclusion : Zork is probably living on the Moon and completely unaware of what's going on in the real world.

For a long period we (palm users ) have wonderful, stable players which can playback native Mpeg-4 (advanced profile) like Divx and Xvid -
MMplayer and SmartMovie. I also know that there are some players for Sony - but i don't know them since i'm usng T3.
I've been watching movies on MMplyaer for long time , first on Zire71, and now on T3, and i NEVER had a single problem with ANY file that i prepared since version 0.2.6.

Those of you who have problems with Mmplayer and Smartmovie - this is only becuase of hardware limitations of your devices., If anybody wants to verify this - PM me your mail - and i will send you a small sample video file(with good q-ty) for your device that should play without problems. Here are my general recomenations for video settings for T3 and T5 palms to play back full movies in hi quality without troubles:
video codec: Xvid/Divx5
bitrate.......180......350 (most regular files have ~1000kb bitrate, no way you can play them w/o conversion)
Frame rate: 12...20fps (23/25 - native fps is also possible, but you need pre-rotate file
Audio: mp3 48kbps/44khz/mono or 32/22/m or 24/22/m or 16/11/m

Bottom line
I agree that Using Kinoma is much easier. You don't need to know absolutely anything(bitrate,codec....) you just select your palm model and press GO - that's all
But you know there aro now perfect simeple solutions in the world. This way or another you will have to pay. In the case of Kinoma - you pay with quality, or with huge filesize , if you want normal quality. Least acceptable quality that i got with Kinoma was 560kbit/s bitrate - while i can achieve same q-ty with Xvid with 250kbps,
And it means i need to buy a 512 mb card to watch just one movie.

If you have some basic understanding in video and know how to convert a file -
MMplayer and SmartMovie - is your choise,

junglemike

12-10-2004, 09:41 PM

Also wanted to add something, reguarding the "standarts" you've been talking all along.
As a end user, whch simply want to watch movies on his palm computer, why should he care about some starndards? Companies and sofware developers should care about snadeards, but not end user. End use only wants to watch good video and wants to pay less money for flash cards for tha purpose. That's all.

jjesusfreak01

12-10-2004, 09:49 PM

For reference, A Sony TH-55 plays mpeg1 files, and mqv quicktime files, which are a type of mpeg4. With the VZ-90 codecs, it can play mp4 files, which are obviously another type of mpeg4 file. I believe mp4 files can be higher quality than the mqv files.

junglemike

12-10-2004, 09:54 PM

Ok guys, made another test - used deadly low bitrate - only 80kbps.
This is kind of bitrate you will have to use to store full movie on one 128mb card.
Files:
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Xvid.480.80kbps.avi
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Kinoma.480.80kbps.mp4

Screenshots:

Xvid:
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Xvid.80kbps.jpg

Kinoma:
http://junglemike.nm.ru/Kinoma.80kbps.jpg

Results speek for themselves, no need to comment

archangel

12-10-2004, 09:54 PM

I completely agree with the results you have above. I haven't seen any encodes that are as good as xvid. Certainly nothing I have tried with MPEG 4 can compare.

I like the Kinoma Player because of the ease and stability. I have followed all of the online guides and settings for encoding video on my device and I still have problems with smooth playback and MMPlayer freezing. Maybe I'm just unlucky or still doing something wrong, but MMPlayer and tinkering with encodes for it is too much of a hassle for me. The only suggestions I have gotten is to use Lightspeed, but I don't feel comfortable with overclocking my PDAs. I want something that can give the best playback possible with the hardware I have.

The Kinoma Player combined with the Sony IC is a good enough balance of quality video and stable software to make me happy even if its not the overall best out there. The ease of doing the encodes wins out.

The Kinoma Producer 3 on the other hand puts out very subpar video and if I did not have the Sony IC to do my MPEG 4 encodes with I would not use Kinoma Player. Producer is the real weak link for video with Kinoma.

I'm strongly part of the group that could care less what codec or standard I'm using. I just want it to work correctly on my PDA.

junglemike

12-10-2004, 10:11 PM

2 archangel , 2jjesusfreak01
Well, i know that most of you use Sony palms. I'm not a Sony guy, and i'm totally unfamiliar with it. I even don't know what IC means :-) .So i really don't know about it's players and it's video quality playback.
And , unlke Zork, i don't want to have an opinion in things, that i Don't understand,
But for Palm devices, especially T3 and T5 with fast enough cpu (overlockable to 600mhz, but not really needed) MMplaer works perfectly, I watch movies on my T3 from time to time in good quality (good enough for me, not like crappy trailers from kinoma's site) that take about 160-180mb - it is amount of free space i have on my 256mb card.

archangel,
It's strange you're having problems with MMplayer. From your signature i see that you have Zodiac . It's powerful enought and i'm more than conviced that i can easily play full screen movies. For example, can you try the fist Xvid sample file for 480x320 display. ? I almost sure you won't have any problems with it.

Fishie_Flop

12-10-2004, 10:51 PM

junglemike, IC stands for Image Convertor.
Its Sony´s own movie conversion program which came with the later Clie´s and will be used for the PSP as well.

While in Japan I watched a few Sony movie demo´s on the VZ90 and the quality of them were incredible considering the machine runs on a 123MHz processor.
I suspect that Sony upgraded the dsp but I might be wrong.

I am glad that most here are in agreeance with me rather then with Zork.
And as for his claims that my posts at pdarcade got deleted by mods I would like to mention that anyone can look for themselves and do a search for his nickname.
You will find that he had posts deleted and commented upon by the mods and not the other way around.

This guy gives Palm fans a bad name.

Zork

12-11-2004, 08:57 AM

tempest929, nope, the PPC were brought as a superior movie player into movie threads a loing time ago. With Kinoma 3 EX the Palm is the superior one. and its fun to tell PPC evangelists like Fishie_flop the simple truth that the industry standard is Palm only. And it is the one which stays here for the next few years while toys like XviD or DivX will change it that time often enough to vanish completely.

JungleMike, sorry, bout you didnt know anything at all bout video. And you even demonstrate that by your own posting. There isnt any MPEG 4 video out there beside done by MPEG 4 codec. Its that simply. Everything else just uses MPEG containers which doesnt have anything to do with the codec. Bout your strange test :

Noone, and I mean noone, out there uses 160 kbit for video. With 250 kbit (as suggested by the Kinoma Producer 3) you got way better quality then with any other codec out there, simply cause MPEG 4 is the most recent industry standard codec out there. I dont think that you are really still too st*pid to check bout the movies on www.apple.com/quicktime to see for yourself (w/o posting pictures which only shows that you dont even know how to encode a movie - it were real fun when you played the clueless 160 kbit stuff (dont want to make fun of you, by mentioning your even more clueless 80 kbit trial :) ) not with the Quicktime player which is the only one offers licensed MPEG 4 codecs - better luck, next time, newb).

Bout industry standard : Industry standard means that you could play your movies anywhere, anytime. And not at one of of a few thousand DVD players, cause with the next DivX step everything will become as incompatible as with the change from DivX 3 to 4 (think bout that .... you buyin a DVD player with DivX support and within days its worth nothing simply cause of some nerds didnt knew the understanding of compatibility) or from DivX to XviD. That cant happen with MPEG 4 (and I know what im talkin bout when I use the term MPEG 4, cause you still dont realize the difference between the MPEG 4 container (which doesnt mean nothing and the Frauenhofer IIS licensed mp4 codec !!!! This one and only this one is industry standard, which means "Play anywhere, anytime")). You encode MPEG 4 now and play it on your PC, Mac, Palm or PSP as long as MPEG 4 codecs are avail (means at least for the next decade - according to the lifespan even of a simple codec like MPEG 1 - MPEG 1 movies are still released on the net way more often then any DivX or Xvid toys). And MPEG 4 is also already used for digital TV. There is not DivX or XviD there. Just MPEG 4 containers (you see the difference now ?). And bout the stuff offered on the net : Almost any movie out there is SVCD. Yep, there was a time when almost any movie was released on DivX, but that was before DivX lost even the smallest common base and were diversed in DivX 3, DivX 4/5 and XviD. Users give nothing bout such chaos. Thats why SVCD become standard again, cause you could play that with almost any player, cause its usin the MPEG 2 standard. So much for your problems with the meaning of the term "industry standard". Sorry, but DivX/XviD is almost dead. Its last outpost with some real spread are the release tv series, but even that will change to MPEG 4 (the licensed and therefor industry standard one, not your lousy container) when MPEG 2 will be used less often.

So we Palm users got right now the one and only MPEG 4 codec which already is industry standard. BTW Thats also something which werent complaint by some freaks here, but for some strange reason this isnt a matter of discussion anymore. Seems like a few folks learned there lesson. Time that they start thinking bout their toy codecs and their limited purpose too (and perhaps this time now by not showing themselves as complete newbs by usin bandwidths noone out there uses).

Fishie_Flop, you know Spiral. And you know the fact that you tried to destroy the second Mazera thread too. Spiral saved the second Mazera thread by censoring your first few messages there, cause you tried again to destroy another thread. The same way you tryin here. But here noone needs just another realitycheck-needing PPC freak (beside the few MMPlayer freaks (its nice that they really defend some toy whic crashes every few minutes and isnt optimized for our platform at all, while a commercial, perfectly Palm optimized and well tested product is really some prob for them. Fanatism at its worst) which dont get that MPEG 4 is here to stay, while DivX/XviD is of no purpose anymore. Destroyed by its missing standards). So again, your reality free lies are misplaced here. You were the one which didnt even knew that he cant play back mp4 w/o a licensed codec and msmatched even container with codec. And you lied bout your reputation at PDArcade. So what bout getting lost as suggested ? There are way more of your troll friends over at PPCArcade :) .

archangel

12-11-2004, 09:37 AM

archangel,
It's strange you're having problems with MMplayer. From your signature i see that you have Zodiac . It's powerful enought and i'm more than conviced that i can easily play full screen movies. For example, can you try the fist Xvid sample file for 480x320 display. ? I almost sure you won't have any problems with it.

I tried the avi clips and they do indeed play back fine on MMPlayer on my device and look excellent. Not really sure what I'm doing wrong on my own encodes, but its something I will look into when I get a chance.

Thanks for the help.

daver

12-11-2004, 12:23 PM

Jeezus Zork, you're not the God of MPEG4's, so you can stop all this bullshit about it. I'm starting to get really tired about you guys all saying which codec is better and which convert player program is superior to the others. It's all personal preference. No one program is superior to the next. THEY'RE ALL THE SAME. so get over it. If you like Kinoma Producer, and think that MPEG4 is better than the others, that's great. you can express yourself, and move on. Someone else might say that MMPLayer and AVI's are better than Kinoma Player and their MPEG4's. Who really cares if they are better? It's all personal preference.

I don't think junglemike even cares what programs other people like. he's just trying to show us what different codecs and different bitrates give you upon conversion, and which ones provide better quality using similar bitrates.

there is no such thing as a 'toy codec'. the most common MP3 codec out there is LAME (no really, that's what it's called, in case you never heard of it). you could call that a 'toy codec', or the 'industry standard' if you're crazy enough. a codec's a friggin codec, it doesn't matter what the hell kinda codec it is ('toy' or not) as long as the gets the job done, right?

and as far as junglemike not knowing anything about video codecs, etc., you're wrong Zork. junglemike knows a lot about codecs. I'll admit, I'm a DVD ripper. (but not a seller, there's never money involved; i'm not that crazy). I rip DVDs for my own purposes, as in borrowing my cousin's DVD and making a copy for myself :rolleyes: . My family owns 2 industrial burners with 10 disc load-trays on each. I have more programs on my computer for video codecs, conversions, and viewing than anyone could imagine. Take a look for yourself, there's a screen shot of my program folder's properties at the bottom of hte post. I know a lot about videos, and so far, junglemike's post is right on the money. I'll say that Zork is right in that the bitrates are low, but what am I to say? i'm converting files at rates as high as 100,000kbits before compressing them. in the end, the file turns out the same if i converted it using an MPEG4 codec, or a DivX codec. it's just a movie.

and just for argument sake, all codecs do the same thing. DivX, XVid, MPEGs, AVI's. I don't care what any of those codec creators think, they're all the same. It doesn't matter what codec you use, it turns out the same in the end. you can use what you want to convert your files. i don't care. just don't make it so that you think you're program is the top of the world. I know, we live in a democratic country (or countries). you have the right to express yourself freely on whatever you want. but you guys are taking this way too far. like i said, it's just a movie. no one's giong to die if their codec sucks.

junglemike:
from what i've gathered, you've been using MMPlayer since it came out. I have a TJ37 (200 MHz processor). is that enough to play an AVI file at around 480kbit bitrate and 20-ish framerate? I've been considering buying it because I don't want to go through the hassle of converting the files again with program like Smart Movie or Kinoma Producer. ( I know, i'm contradicting a post i made way earlier in the year, but i need to view video files posted by my profs for lab tutorials. looks like i can't get away from not doing it). I've found a converter that can convert Macromedia Flash files into AVI's, and was wondering my PDA is fast enough to playback smoothly. thanks in advance.

daver

Fishie_Flop

12-11-2004, 01:55 PM

One must wonder what parralel universe Zork hails from.

Zork

12-11-2004, 05:15 PM

Fishie_Flop, congrats. You did it as always. You destroyed just another useful thread. Hopefully nexttime, the admins take actions against you a little earlier.

daver

12-11-2004, 07:09 PM

actually Zork, Fishie_Flop didn't kill this thread. you were a huge factor to the death of it. all you ever cared about is try and get leverage on MPEG4, and even more MPEG4. you shouldn't be talking. I've seen some of your posts from PDArcade. you're no better than anyone else who kills threads.

Fishie_Flop

12-11-2004, 07:54 PM

Fishie_Flop, congrats. You did it as always. You destroyed just another useful thread. Hopefully nexttime, the admins take actions against you a little earlier.

The admins have taken action against me?
Oh wait, seems like they have in the same way it happened on pdarcade: In your imagination.

Gero

12-11-2004, 08:41 PM

Fishie_Flop, you start your stup*d lies here again. You already destroyed a thread at PPCArcade that way, so simple get lost (or kicked by administration, cause this is simply a Palm forum and no PPC forum).

Come on.. can we talk/argue/bonce ideas and experiences in a civilised manner.. There is no need for launguage lkike this and i dont really want to read it when i'm browsing threats. Control your temper Zork!!

Thanks, Gero

Gero

12-11-2004, 09:24 PM

Spiral

12-12-2004, 02:07 AM

toys like XviD or DivX will change it that time often enough to vanish completely.
Divx version 3-5, all of them have been backwards compatible. And after three version changes, most movie rips are still in Xvid or Divx.

Noone, and I mean noone, out there uses 160 kbit for video. With 250 kbit (as suggested by the Kinoma Producer 3) you got way better quality then with any other codec out there, simply cause MPEG 4 is the most recent industry standard codec out there.
Whether it's 10, 20, 40, 2000, Xvid will look better than Kinoma's compression. It's not a matter of using a specific bitrate that will make kinoma look better than Xvid. At greater bitrates the difference will be less noticeable, but if I wanted perfect video without regards for size, I could just use uncompressed or lossless compression.

(dont want to make fun of you, by mentioning your even more clueless 80 kbit trial :) ) not with the Quicktime player which is the only one offers licensed MPEG 4 codecs - better luck, next time, newb).
If this Quicktime version of MPEG4 is such an industry standard, it should look exactly the same in Quicktime player as any MPEG4-supporting video player.

Some "industry standard" junk, inaccuracies, and bad grammar...skip.

Fishie_Flop, you know Spiral. And you know the fact that you tried to destroy the second Mazera thread too. Spiral saved the second Mazera thread by censoring your first few messages there, cause you tried again to destroy another thread.
Really? I did? I seem to remember you flaming everybody who disagreed with you as a "PPC evangelist" and stuff like "stup*d " and destroying your own thread. Also, the first two mazera threads were deleted, so it would have to be at least the third thread. And almost all the posts censored were yours, and I can't think of one of Fishie_Flop's that was unacceptable.

junglemike

12-12-2004, 05:52 AM

Hi everybody.

Look Zork, i really can't understand your behaviours.
The only reason i can see that your'e struggling to the death - Is that you interestred in some way or another in developement and advertisement of this product. Of course me (and i think anybody else) doesnt' have anything against it fact.
But what you do - is actually trying to achieve the completely opposite goal.
Look, we live in a free world. Everybody does what he wants and chooses what he wants. So instead of trying to discussing the new player/converter tha came out - you simply telling everybody that they should "stop using any other player to use and use only Kinoma", that they don't undertand anything about codecs/compression/formats/..
That all other guides and thread shoule be close cos not needed anymore, and so on and so on. -
Look, Zork, people are not morons, and they don't like when you tell them they are.
Even those people that have no experience in video - wouldn't like when somebody told them that "this is program you should use, no other cholse," as a fact.
Look at my posts, I never tried to tell anybody what player/codec to use - i simply tell my personal opinion on the matter, giving the User as many choices as possible. Even in my guide here and in another forum - i didnt' recommend ANY software that is NOT free, except , MMplayer and Smartmovie - simply since there are no free mpeg-4 players for palm (maybe sony does - i don't know).
I really don't understand why are you doing this? What else did you expect , except (mostly) negative reaction? For example i don't care what what video player somebody uses. If he/she lilkes it - than be it. For example Gero bought Kinoma , and he getting accaptable results, why would i try to convince him otherwise?

Now try to think what a new user (a potential buyer of kinoma)thinks when he enters this thread? In all this thread you didnt' provide any solid prooff of any of your statements, you just keeps saying that we know notheing and Divx/Xvid are toys, that will die very very soon. This is why i also don't comment your last post - simply notheing to comment - all is just empty words with no proof, no reason behind them.
Despite you i DID provide you proof, Links and shreenshots. Why do you thing i did it? - not becuse of Kinoma - but because of you . And new users read these thread and see it, they also see that Kinoma+producer cost 50$, while MM cost 15$ for example,

So, Zork for your own benefit - start a new thread and try to discuss the good pints of Kinoma product, Try to help people that have problems, etc. Dont' try to tell them thy are morons. And if you are really have experience in video encoding , as you mean to say - try to find out (freeware , if possible) way to manually encode .mp4 files, since Producer's super speed and lack of such basic thing as 2-pass encoding gives terrible results, Player itlself in not bad. I tried in on my T3 and it dies it's work pretty well, given a correct file settings.
If you do it - i'm convinced that nobody will flame you and argue with you as in this thread ( at least i won't )

SuperSaiyan

12-12-2004, 10:19 AM

Ugh <sigh>
Zork,
I know you're a very passionate Kinoma fan but you're only burning bridges here. Taking your arguement to this extreme only makes you look like you're asking for a flaming. Your opinions are in the minority here, so it might be a good time to deal with it as repeatedly beating, thrashing, slashing, shooting, stabbing, stomping this dead horse yields no results and helps kill the thread. A noble cause man, but put away the defibrillator and call the time of death....please.

Having said that, If you remove Zorks posts and maybe one or two others (mine included) I leave this thread with one impression of Kinoma......IT SUCKS, IT SUCKS, IT SUCKS, OH - and IT ALSO SUCKS! Maybe the thread title should have been changed to reflect this sentiment?

I was hoping that a Kinoma thread of this size would have been of some benefit to those of us that have it and don't think it completely SUCKS......I'm willing to admit, its not the best - to avoid those flaming arrows <ducks> just to be safe :) I'm willing to try other methods of getting video on my T5 as long as the results are amazingly superior, as I've gathered from others here. *thread critique end*

Legit question: As long as Kinoma has been around, why would they avoid 2-pass encoding? - which, I assume, is a good thing.

-SS

add: I tried for hours today to get a video converted using your video walkthrough and everything comes back with "warning: nothing to ol....(goes off the screen here?) bframe decoder lag. What am I doing wrong here?
Be kind....I'm used to the simple stuff when it comes to video :o

add2: Okay, I ripped <shhhhhhh> a dvd to mpeg and downloaded an AC3 decompressor so VirtualDubMod can pull the sound and...... the video/audo sync is WAY off. didn't do any conversion. Just loaded the 5gb file and tried to run it. Where do I go from here?.............hmmmm Kinoma :rolleyes:

mirac976

12-13-2004, 02:33 AM

This is one of the things I enjoy using my Tungsten E for. Till now i have stuck to the standard Kinoma software tools that came packaged with the Tungsten E. I have managed to cram 5 hours of video on a 1G SD card, and am pretty pleased with the performance overall. Using it is simple. I have tried a Teal product, but could not get the same quality (too pixelated) picture. Also, the MMPlayer set up, and the apparent need to overclock scared me off a bit.

Has anybody tried the Kinoma 3X Producer ? Is it worth the investment ? As usual, I am looking for beter quality video and sound with smaller file sizes. My main objective is to watch soccer matches. With my current set-up this is not so great as the relatively low quality of the picture means i lose sight of the ball!!!

Maybe the new Kinoma set up would help here ?

Big thanks to whoever replies.

SuperSaiyan

12-13-2004, 11:37 PM

well, after 6 hours over 2 days of wading thru the audio/video codec swamp and struggling with VirtualDubMod, DVD2AVI, AVISynth, etc., etc., I have a new found respect and appreciation for the simplicity of Kinoma Player/Producer 3EX. I simply could do nothing with .vob's and AC3. Back to bigger files and lesser quality but I wont be shouting obscenities at my screen after today :mad: :rolleyes:

junglemike

12-14-2004, 12:33 AM

SuperSaiyan,
you can use a Most-pupular free programs for DVD-ripping called
GordianKnot, get it here
http://sourceforge.net/projects/gordianknot/
It can handle you .vob and .ac3 files perfectly and produce killing hi-quality files.
For reference, most super-quality DVD rips over P2P networks done with This GordianKnot (or autoGK)
here is the avisynth script i'm using, it has special pre-filtering that encreases compressiblity of given file and also removes any noise. With this pre-filtering i'm able to achieve very hi quality (without artifacts) with Xvid at very low bitrates, like 80-150kbits/sec

LoadPlugin ("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FluxSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin ("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\convolution3d.dll")
LoadPlugin ("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\undot.dll")
# - this sign means that that line will be skiped by processing <comments>
#You need to specify full path of the .dll files - where you put them.
# These are external plug-ins, which do the filtering, you need to download them and install, get them here:
# http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

Avisource("c:\Your file full path.avi")
# If the initial file is .mpeg and not .avi - you need to use DirectShowSource("") instead of Avisource

bilinearresize(480,264)
# This will resize to your desired resolution, make sure you observe aspect ratio
# And make sure that the resolution matches your screen size

selecteven()
# this will reduce frame rate by 2 (12.5fps instead of 25) if you need more, use convertfps() function
ConvertToYUY2()
#filtering
undot()

FluxSmoothT()
#filtering

Convolution3D (0, 3, 4, 3, 4, 2.8, 0)
#this one i use by default, if you source is noisy, or you are compressing to very small size -
#use these values, it can do wonders
#Convolution3D(0, 32, 128, 16, 64, 10, 0)

turnright()
#This will rotate your image, use it if you have 480x320 device.
# That improves speed by 100 % in some cases
#have a nice day.

Spiral

12-14-2004, 02:05 AM

I like to use PocketDivxEncoder.

Zork

12-14-2004, 06:20 AM

JungleMike, thx for your wise statements, but you mischanged the users here. You were the one which proofen absolutely nothing. You used some obscure source (as if it wouldnt matter which codec were used for the source material :) ), never mentioned the quantity of key frames, used bandwidth which are simply a bad joke, showed still frames (as if still frames would prove anything for a motion picture codec) and finally played your MPEG 4 encoded files with unoptimized players. And finally you werent even able to tell MPEG 4 codecs from MPEG 4 containers. Sorry, but this is simply lame. And BTW : This argument is also the proof which you searched for a long time :) .

Spiral, you were the one which completely failed to save the first Mazera thread from some evangelists which destroyed by the simple flame war, by ignoring that Mazera were a RPG. No everyone talks bout Mazera as a RPG and thos fanatics are proven wrong by the whole community, but it were your decision to let them post there flame postings til the thread was gone. Congrats, perfect management with the first Mazera thread ;) . The second one worked better (you obviously learned from your mistake from the first one). But even their a few PPC evengelists still tried to destroy it. This time you reacted sooner and censored their postings. And indeed Fishie_Flop were one of them. It were funny when even another PPC fantic had to calm him down. Strange that you didnt remember that fact, but Im glad that I could help you this problem.

Daver, the codec matters a lot. The codec decides if you could play your movie anywhere (MPEG 1,2 or 4) or only on a limited range of hardware (non MPEG codecs). Simply check P2P sides. Beside the wrong statement that most releases today are done with XviD or DivX (that even were true once, before DivX finally failed to deliver working and compatible standards) 9 out of 10 users DLin the MPEG 1 version. Beside the fact that it offers indeed worse quality then the DivX versions. Cause you could play your MPEG 1 files everywhere everytime. But you cant do that with a non MPEG codec. Thats the huge advantage of industry standard codecs which cant be mentioned too often. There were also some desaster, that the so called experts at this thread misleaded newbies that DivX, XviD or 3ivX is a MPEG 4 codec. Im proud that this mistake is solved now and users stop calling a MPEG 4 container file like DivX, etc. a MPEG 4 file. There is just one MPEG 4 file out there and thats the one which uses usually the extension .mp4. It uses the licensed MPEG 4 video and audio codec (cause thos files are also usin a MPEG 4 AAC encoded audio stream) from the Frauenhofer IIS. Take a look at the first postings in this threads when even Fishie_Flop meant theat DivX, etc. is a MPEG 4 codec. So it is important which codec you use (industry standard or limited one) and it is important that you get the correct informations. And BTW : MPEG 1 Layer 3 (which you called MP3) is industry standard ! But AAC (means a MPEG 4 audio stream) is a more advanced industry standard. Its simply a matter of filesize, quality and support. Right now there is only one AAC player beside iTunes for Mac and Windows - Kinoma Player 3 EX for the Palm exclusive. But it doesnt offer playlist support. So its better to still use the MP3 industry standard for PDA playback til Kinoma Player 3 EX becomes a at least basic equipped audio player. But when such an update is released there is no reason anymore to use MP3, cause AAC offers better quality and smaller file size. So deciding which industry standard to use is always apackage of purpose and support (still usin VCDs for tv shows, cause its small and I could play it everywhere - despite indeed its worse quality).

So much bout almost on topic stuff. Back to thread questions : Ripping DVDs is really simple. First take a tool like DVD Backup. That way you get .vob files with the video stream and .ac3 with the audio stream. Decode the AC3 streams with freetools like AC3Dec to standard AIFF files. And decode the VOB files with tools like MPEG2Decoder to any loseless format Quicktime offers (DV is some good idea. Its not completely loseless (appr. 1:3 compression), but good enough). Finally use any mux tool out there to remux the audio and video stream. Youre done and got some file which you could drag on any MPEG 1 or 2 codec tool. But if you like to produce a MPEG 4 file for your Palm its even more simple. Get the VOB and AC3 files from your DVD usin DVD backup as usual. And then simply open HandBrake. Usin that tool you could simply convert your VOB and AC3 files directly to MPEG 4 files, w/o losing any quality at all. But there are some small probs even with the first PDA MPEG 4 player out there. The good, old heap problem with a few of the first POS 5 PDAs (for exampe the Tungsten T, Tungsten E, Zire 71, etc.). For such devices its better to use 160 * 120, then 320 * 240 (but you still could use 150 % zoom with the Player, which offers fine quality - and you even got a way smaller file then ever ;) ).

Something else I researched bout in the last few days is, how to get useful files out of DivX, etc. toys (sorry, bein not supported on most players is the definition for toy). Cleaner is some awesome tool, which does almost anything for you, but it fails for some strange reason to offer a letterbox option. But there is a real easy way to bypass that prob. Simply drag your DivX or XviD files to Toast and build a disk image. Then get the converted objects from your Roxio Converted Objects folder (which are m1v and m1a for VCD and m2v and m1a for SVCD) and mux them for example with Gumby (one of the best tool avail for the Mac or any other OS). And here you are with your industry standard, letter boxed VCD or SVCD file (which is again a good (indeed not perfect, cause of the former usage of 2 destructive codecs) base to drag onto Cleaner to build a industry standard MPEG 4 file. And all of them could be played now anywhere. Thats really useful, cause most users getting the MPEG 1 versions of recent television eps from the net. And the bots offering DivX versions are often the ones with the free slots. So why wait for all eternities, when you could simply reencode them faster then realtime and play them then on any DVD player, any PC and any POS 5 Palm out there (even PPCs support MPEG. But only the not portable optimized MPEG 1 and 2 codecs - which means you carry around worse quality and larger files. But at least its possible).

So I hope we are back on topic beside all the strange flame wars sourced by whomever (most users here know anyway which users started it).

Zork

12-14-2004, 06:40 AM

BTW JungleMike, perfect idea to use a tool which arent offering industry standard support. Therefor you have to use a destructive codec like DivX before you could encode them to some industry standard format like MPEG 1, 2 or 4. And thats your way of working ?
Sorry to tell, but learn to live with the fact, that DivX isnt that often used anymore. And if you like to ignore it, avoid at any cost any BT offering web site out there, which shows the number of seeders and leechers of the DivX and MPEG 1 version of the same tv shows (appr. 90 % MPEG 1 users (despite its indeed bad quality) for Simpsons S16E05 is just some rumour sourced by me ;) ). Your tool would be interesting if it would support MPEG 4 or any other MPEG codec.

Fishie_Flop

12-14-2004, 11:02 AM

As far as I know I didnt even participate in the Mazera thread so its more lies from LaLaLand from Zork.
Instead of dealing with the fact that it was you who destroyed threads with your idiocy you again attack the person responsible for proving what a lar you are.
The evidence is there to see, everyone can check out the pdarcade forums, do a search for your name and see what really went on.
Your lies wont fly in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

AAC support does exist in the PPC world in the form of the excellent Betaplayer amongst others so thats another lie.

Its all you seem to be able to do, when found out deny or create an even bigger lie, blast those who expose you for the fraud you are and continue to act as if nothing happened.
Your last name wouldnt happen to be Rumsfeld would it?

Spiral

12-14-2004, 04:03 PM

Spiral, you were the one which completely failed to save the first Mazera thread from some evangelists which destroyed by the simple flame war, by ignoring that Mazera were a RPG. No everyone talks bout Mazera as a RPG and thos fanatics are proven wrong by the whole community, but it were your decision to let them post there flame postings til the thread was gone. Congrats, perfect management with the first Mazera thread ;) . The second one worked better (you obviously learned from your mistake from the first one). But even their a few PPC evengelists still tried to destroy it. This time you reacted sooner and censored their postings. And indeed Fishie_Flop were one of them. Strange that you didnt remember that fact, but Im glad that I could help you this problem.
The job of an admin is not to micro-manage the board and clean up everybody's posts. Neither I nor PDArcade takes responsibility for whatever nasty posts you or other users come up with. I don't like to clean up after flamers and "management" is a waste of time I could spend better. Btw, the first Mazera thread was closed before it became a flame war, the first person to take it off-topic was you. And you also started the flames See it here (http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3804&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). The second one was deleted. And Fishie_Flop wasn't one of them, so you didn't help out with the problem. You're leaving out the fact that 90% of the flames originated from you.

The only problem you could help me out with would be yourself.

Zork

12-14-2004, 04:18 PM

Good admins, what bout starting to kick Fishie_Flop ? Or is the usage of terms like "idiocy" "LaLaLaland from one thread user", etc. common language on this website ?

BTW Im sending this mail indeed to the admins directly too. A line must be drawn here against your inability to comply with human guidelines. This should be the last thread destroyed by you.

Just one last correction of your post : there isnt any fully compatible AAC codec out there beside Kinoma, cause its copyrighted by Frauenhofer IIS and freeware/shareware tools cant afford to pay either the licensing fees or bein sued by the copyright owners. You talking bout FAAD which isnt fully compatible with the industry standard. Read the according forums bout FAAD.

Simcityguy5

12-14-2004, 04:28 PM

OMG! Zork, you never give up!!!
You really make me sick, protecting a codec that may be the standard for pc videos, but on a palm you don´t care about a industry standard, you care about quality and size (where, obviously, divx and xvid are the best option).
Say for example, you download a tv episode and it has been encoded with MPEG 4, if what you say it´s truth, you should be able to ply that video on your palm without any kind of conversion process, but ohh wait, you must first use Kinoma Producer!!!
A stupid tool worth $29.99, so where is the industry standard part???
You stated that you could play your MPEG 4 movie anywhere, my palm is somewhere, but I can´t play it directly, I must first buy another program to convert my video, and then results a supa big size movie, congratulations, you just created a movie in a industry standard codec!!!
How great!!!
But oh wait again, why is it so big (in megs) and blurry???
Well, I suppose that´s ok, as long as my movie continues on a industry standard codec...
Well, now that I´ve my video ready to be played on my palm (a Tungsten T1 btw) I load Kinoma player 3 EX (wich is worth $19.99) tap the video name and...
Guess what, my palm resets itself and errases all my data in RAM, good work Kinoma, your webpage states that Kinoma Player 3 EX works on my device, but why it doesn´t and MMplayer does???
Kinoma fan Zork answers:
MMplayer is just a toy
Well, I think they´re both toys, but MMplayer is the best toy out there for now, the same for MPEG 4 and Divx/Xvid
All this just get´s me to a question, Zork, isn´t it the same to use MPEG 4 and Divx/Xvid on a palm, since palm´s are´nt designed to play video since they were born (with exception to the Zire 72 and CLIÉs), this makes me think of another question: Zork, why do you state that MPEG 4 play´s everywhere, if it neds to be converted to be played on a palm???
and another one, Why the fu*k should MPEG 4 be the standard codec for palms, if you can get better quality videos with smaller size than MPEG 4???
I hope you answer (if you dare) with truth, and not just posting the stup*d sh*t you´ve said before.
Cya
Sim-City Guy.

Zork

12-14-2004, 04:35 PM

Spiral, its fine that you searching the faults at others after you failed to rescue the first Mazera thread. The matter simply was that some users didnt liked the facts I posted at earlier PDArcade threads (mostly PPC evangelists) and started a flame war when I mentioned Mazera as Zelda like game (which is completely fine on this site :) ). You havent done anything (!!!!!) to stop them doing so. So sorry, but im not here to be blamed for your mistakes at the first thread. But as I mentioned you learned from your errors then (which are thanks to your link even documented here - I werent the first using terms like "condescending jerk". Surely not part of a flame war ;) ) and handled the next thread way better. That one even worked then (some of the PPC evangelists at that time realized the potential of the game in the meantime and were more interested at posting question then making fools out of them by mentioning that Mazera isnt Zelda like and attacking everyone which didnt shared their point of view) and is still used for Mazera questions.

From my side the prob with the first thread is solved, cause you learned from your mistakes then (and thats IMHO the only important fact). If you like to continue blaming others bout the probs then, be my guest :) .

But back on topic cause this is still a Kinoma Player 3 EX thread :

Seems that the prob with 160 * 120 resolution max not only targets the Tungsten T, but also the Tungsten E and Zire 71 (at least the Zire 71 had more dynamic RAM then the Tungsten T). Beside its amazing feature I see this as some real prob with Kinoma 3. IMHO that prob and the fact that playlists cant be used yet are the ones which should be adressed ASAP (reencoding my CDs usin AAC would save a lot space on my GB SD card for more MPEG 4 movies). Seems like Kinoma Player 3 EX had too much awesome new features, which Kinoma werent able to handle fully at their first version. But for transferring just one CD to Kinoma player the missing playlist wont be that much of a problem and the 150 % zoom of LoRes MPEG 4 movies is at least some bypass til this problem is hopefully solved.

simcityguy6

12-14-2004, 04:39 PM

Ok, so could you answer all my other questions???
Thanks.
Cya
Sim-City Guy

Zork

12-14-2004, 04:48 PM

SimCityGuy, your post containing quotes like "I hope you answer (if you dare) with truth, and not just posting the stup*d sh*t you´ve said before." is forwared to the admins too. As I mentioned : It werent fine by me to take over others language by usin terms like "stup*d" too, but this stops here. I learned my lesson and this thread is too interesting to waste it by just another flame war.

And theres one correction for you too : You dont have to use Kinoma Producer 3. Thats the whole point bout it. You could use every MPEG 4 file out there as long as it complies to the max bandwidth and resolution for your Palm and uses the industry standard MPEG 4 audio and video codecs. Use any MPEG 4 complaint codec you could get out there and encode your Kinoma 3 MPEG 4 movie. I for myself tried Kinoma Producer 3 just a few times and thats it. It isnt the best MPEG 4 tool out there, so why use it at all ? On the mac you cant even build MPEG 4 movies from MPEG 2 movies. As I already described : Usin HandBreak you could even encode directly from your DVDs VOB and AC3 files to MPEG 4. And usin Cleaner or freeware ffmpegx you could use almost any format out there to encode to MPEG 4. Or simpy use the good, old Quicktime Player itself to encode your MPEG 4 movie. There are dozens of ways to encode your MPEG 4 movie thx to the according Quicktime codec.

Kinoma Producer offers just one huge advantage : It shows you the bandwidth limit for your according Palm. If your Palm got low dynamic RAM you have to use smaller bandwidths. Simply install the Kinoma Producer 3 trial to check for he correct bandwidth for your Palm and then use any MPEG 4 tool you like. So the $ 30 Kinoma Producer 3 isnt necesarry at all (beside that I still see it as some fine tool, cause you dont have to waste your time with testing the max bandwidth and resolution for your Palm. But the missing MPEG 2 support for the MacOS made it useless for me). Thats the huge advantage. Supporting industry standard means no need for non standard tools anymore.

Fishie_Flop

12-14-2004, 06:33 PM

Betaplayer plays: AACFull AAC with SBR, PS and other profiles2 AAC0
So what on eart is FAAD?

First page fourth post you entger the thread and while no one has mentioned PPCs you state the following: please, PPC evangelists, stop whining now

A few posts down you again spread some lies and blast PPCs some more, again despite no one else having mentioned PPC at that point.

After that some people state some FACTS with regards to PPC and videoplayer abilities and you totaly flip your lid.

You start lying, insulting people, calling em PPC evangelists etcetera and further obfuscate the points brought foirward, every time someone proves you wrong on something and provides actual proof you make up another bigger lie.

I call you out on what I say is your stupidity and you off course immediatly want the mods to jump in, at that point you have insulted everyone who doesnt agree with you as working with toy codecs, PPC evangelists, people who dont know what they are talking about and losers who are suffering fro buying the wrong platform while no one before you and for several posts after you had even mentioned PPC to begin with.

On page 5 of the thread you really start to lose it.
When I mention the fact that you were against mpeg4 as a PDA movie codec on PDArcade and paste your own words in the thread you have the guts to acuse me of lying and you say this: Fishie_Flop, you start your stup*d lies here again. You already destroyed a thread at PPCArcade that way, so simple get lost (or kicked by administration, cause this is simply a Palm forum and no PPC forum).

Excuse me?
I DONT have a PPC at this point, yet that doesnt faze you and you continue to state that I have chosen the wrong PDA yet YOU were the first one to start talking about PPCs(by spreading lies about it) and you start lying about the threads that YOU killed with YOUR lies at PDArcade.

At that point others are starting to chip in and defend me at your expense, pointing out that YOU are the one who has been spreading lies and not me, Junglemike provides proof to go along with the talk to show that you are talking bollocks and have no clue what you are on about.

Yet you have the gall to say this:JungleMike, sorry, bout you didnt know anything at all bout video.
Junglemike explains people what programs do what, what the best ways to convert are and what the results are, you on the other hand spout a lot of crap do absolutely nothing to back up what you say(kinda hard to back up lies with proof) yet again instead of explaining why he would be wrong and you would be right you downright insult the guy.

Of course in the same thread you decide to insult me again and make up some more lies about a thread at PDArcade, a thread I might add that despite yout claims I had NEVER even participated in.

Spiral sets you straight about what happened at PDArcade so of course you blast away at him as well.
Spread some more lies about what I allegedly did in a thread I WAS NEVER EVEN PART OF.

I call you out on your LIES and that for you is of course reason to request for my banning and subsequently make upo some more lies while you are at it.

Really WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?

Fishie_Flop

12-15-2004, 10:46 AM

Sorry for the bad spelling in my previous post.

daver

12-15-2004, 11:24 AM

Alrite. This thread has gone far enough. I'm getting tired of all of you people now. At first I thought I'd say something, then I ended up getting in the middle of this war going on in here. This thread was originally for people who would like to talk about the new Kinoma Player 3 and 3EX. Then Zork comes in with his information about MPEG4. OK, that's fine because it was quite informative. Little did we know what would happen next. Unfortunately, Zork doesn't know when to simply say, "Hey, this is what I know, so deal. If you want to tell me more, by all means, enlighten me." Instead, Zork continues to defend his POV. Why couldn't you just simply say this is what I know about MPEG4 (and all other codecs you mentioned) and just back down? Instead of that, he butchers all other codecs saying that they're all 'toy[s]' and pretty much not worth anyone's time or money, if it's a factor, to use. Why couldn't Zork just accept the fact that a codec's a codec, and anyone can choose whatever codec they want? There's no rule telling people that they have to use the best codec in the world. Who gives two $h!ts if the codecs Zork talk about are really better than most? It is people like Zork that piss me off. They fight and fight and fight, never give up, and when they get corned, instead of fighting back some more, they run off to the big guys and try and get help (admins anyone?).
I've had enough of this crap. This thread was meant to talk about a media player, not start a civil war (i guess you'd call it that within the forum community). Sure, I got involved, but then i backed down because i realized that it wasn't my fight, and i really don't care about codecs. but now, it's getting really tiring, and i want it shut down.

SuperSaiyan

12-15-2004, 02:37 PM

Thanks junglemike for the suggestions. Some of this stuff is actually starting to make some sense to me now. I may yet successfully convert a dvd to high quality, low file size video on my T5 :)

Question: I was converting AC3 audio to WAV and noticed later that the audio was not the movie dialogue but some narrator talking over everything thoughout the file. where did this come from and how do I get to the real movie audio?

jjesusfreak01

12-15-2004, 04:26 PM

I think the admin stuff was just a threat, because if I was Zork, I wouldnt want them looking at what I wrote. As for codecs, we dont really have that much of a choice in most cases. Some clies are an exception, but generally, there is little choice, and we should be happy with what we can get, until we've got a flac player for music, and wmv for video.

By the way, I love Point of Lights first quote Here (http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3804&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Notice the Point of Light defense of Zork later. We seem to like to think theres still good left in the world, and no one could possibly be so much of a "condescending jerk" (from pda arcade) as Zork seems to be.

Zork

12-16-2004, 06:00 PM

jjesusfreak01, you are wrong. This is not a thread and your posting is forwarded to the admins too. If your target is only to destroy the thread, then try to find some different one where you could attack other users w/o any problems.

BTW wmv as your favorite codec/container ? Thats explains a lot :) . Even DivX is used way more often. And wide spread usage is perhaps important when you usin no industry standard codecs.

Zork

12-16-2004, 06:23 PM

Daver, everyone here defend some codec. Just for your information. Junglemike for example defends DivX beside that its a no standard codec. So this is simply bout the advantages bout each codec. It were just a few users which meant that they have to insult others and im the one which stops this off topic stuff right now before its too late. And in opposite to the now innocent Fishie_Flop I clearly tell that im part of this development, cause I reacted way too late the correct way to the offensive style some users here used. But this is now admin stuff, so the thread shouldnt become even more off topic.

And Fishie_Flop, read your BetaPlayer nfo. You could play partly AAC cause of the freeware implementation of AAC called FAAD. Betaplayer uses the FAAD 2 engine, which is some great project (I checked FAAD already at the early days). This is great, but its just some open source trial. You still have probs with a lot m4a files. Not to mention the prob with m4a tags (which become way better with FAAD 2). And another fact you didnt got : The new Betaplayer were released on December 12th (which included for the first time the FAAD 2 engine). So even the limited m4a support werent avail for PPC before this date (thats even mentioned at the nfo, cause the developer had all reason to be proud bout it, that there is at least minimal support for m4a on PPC now too). On the Palm on the other side you dont have to fight with FAAD 2 problems cause Kinoma was smart enough to license the original MPEG 4 codec from Frauenhofer IIS. So there is no need for opensource development. So much for lies and your other similiar strange attacks.

Fishie_Flop

12-16-2004, 06:24 PM

jjesusfreak01, you are wrong. This is not a thread

I couldve sworn it was

Fishie_Flop

12-16-2004, 06:27 PM

It were just a few users which meant that they have to insult others and im the one which stops this off topic stuff right now before its too late. And in opposite to the now innocent Fishie_Flop I clearly tell that im part of this development, cause I reacted way too late the correct way to the offensive style some users here used.

You reacted too late by starting to insult people and drag in PPC long before anyone else did?
Seems more like people reacted to you and not the other way around.

Zork

12-16-2004, 06:31 PM

Fishie_Flop, indeed I started insulting again. Presumely like I did at PDArcade ;) ? What bout taking for the first time responsibility for your actions ? It isnt that hard as it sounds :) .

And I reacted too late by contacting the admins. Instead I used the same language which will never happen again, cause it supports only flamers like the one I already mentioned. Operators are here for some reason.

Zork

12-16-2004, 06:40 PM

Clie_wannabe, Kinoma had to restrict the MPEG 4 support at their player, cause you arent getting a MPEG 4 license for free ;) . Kinoma had to license it, cause the alternative would have been the way things are solved for now on PPCs where the open source project FAAD 2 is implemented now. some great project which shows whats possible, when you want to avoid licensing fees, but still just a in development open source project with its more or less limited purpose compared with the original. But perhaps it would have been smarter from Kinoma to offer at least time limited MPEG 4 support at their player.

Methnene, Apple uses the different Sorenson codecs (recent one is Sorenson 3) and MPEG 4 for their trailers. Depends on the release.

Troidl, there is a real MPEG 4 codec. Its copyrighted like the popular MPEG 1 Layer 3 codec by Frauenhofer IIS. Thats also the one Apple uses as Quicktime module (decompression for free and compression as part of Quicktime Pro). And Microsoft never had a chance to include MPEG 4 codec, cause they wanted to fight that industry standard with some own stuff (means wmv chaos at there recent versions - and thos arent even supported by DVD players (beside a few models)) and not to pay the licensing fee to Frauenhofer IIS.

daver

12-16-2004, 06:53 PM

Wow. Hasn't anyone noticed that the thread title is Kinoma Player 3 EX? Now we're talking about codecs? Talk about tangents.

Since we're on codecs now.... What would be the best codec to convert a 10 GB video file (it's ~5 hours long). I usually use the Xvid codec to convert files to AVI for my girlfriend, but this time it's not going on to an SD card/ Memory stick. I'm trying to fit it on to a single DVD if possible, but I can't find any codecs that can compress without any (or at least very minimal) loss of quality. Any suggestions?

Zork

12-16-2004, 07:05 PM

Daver, if its not already DV use DV (its part of Quicktime). It compresses appr. 1:3 and doesnt show too many artefacts.
And indeed we talking bout codecs too, cause Kinoma Player 3 EX for the Palm great new feature is exclusive full MPEG 4 audio and video support. And there were some discussion if the til then used DivX codec for MMPlayer still got any purpose now that a recent industry standard codec is avail for the Palm.

BTW Nintendo supports MPEG 4 now too. They offer the PlayYan Adapter for the GBA SP and the Nintendo DS which supports MPEG 1 Layer 3 and MPEG 4 support. So much for the purpose of industry standards. MPEG 4 movies could then be played on your Palm, Sony PSP, Nintendo DS, Nintendo Gameboy Advance, Macs and Windows PCs (both via Quicktime). And perhaps PPCs get sooner or later a full MPEG 4 codec via licensing too. Great news IMHO that MPEG 4 becomes sooner then thought a widespread succesor of MPEG 2. Hopefully this will end all that non standard codec chaos (Divx, Xvid, Sorenson, WMV, rmv, 3ivx, etc. etc. etc. ... no standards for end users to relly on to play everywhere and everytime).

troydl

12-16-2004, 07:30 PM

Zork,

I know and i wrote about already as i had posted on page three of this thread (and to think this is already the 8th page and if anyone has followed what you said closely then they'd know that you are starting to modify what you are saying abot MPEG-4).

And i also know that there is a difference between an MPEG-4 codec implementation and the MPEG-4 standard which was apparently unclear to you until the next time you modify your position on an issue. And BTW this is a "thread", but of course you may not now what a thread is (but you will change your position again after a few posts so thats not a problem).

And if you use your google for even a few minutes you'd know that you dont have to implement all of the reqd "levels" or "profiles for it to be classified as an MPEG-4 type codec and not even your beloved kinoma and its "licensed" codec implements everything (so its just like Xvid and the rest of the compliant MPEG-4 codecs).

And Microsoft did try to implement it , as proprietarily as they could and as miserable at that back then.

Currently MPEG-4 is broken down into 8 Separate parts, some of which are still under development and are not available for purchase from ISO.

ISO/IEC 14496-1 (Systems)
Contains tools such as BiFS, Object Descriptors, FlexMux, MP4 File Format, etc.

ISO/IEC 14496-2 (Visual)
Includes natural and synthetic coding as well as Facial and Body Animation.

ISO/IEC 14496-3 (Audio)
Including Speech coding, General Audio Coding, Structured Audio, Text to Speech interface, Parameteric Audio.

ISO/IEC 14496-4 (Conformance)
Specifies tests to be performed to verify whether bitstreams and decoders meet the requirements of parts 1, 2, 3, and 6.

ISO/IEC 14496-5 (Reference Software)
Unoptimized software implementation of the MPEG-4 specification.

ISO/IEC 14496-6 (Delivery Multimedia Integration Framework
Provides a means for transparent access and delivery of content irrespective of delivery technologies.
ISO/IEC 14496-7 (Optimised software for MPEG-4 tools) -- Under development

ISO/IEC 14496-8 (4 on IP framework) -- Under developement
A framework for transmitting MPEG-4 over IP neworks

The MPEG-4 Visual standard defines (by October 2001) 18 visual object types and 19 visual profiles. Nine visual profiles have been defined in MPEG-4 Visual Version 1 [MPEG4-2]: Simple, Simple Scalable, Core, Main, N-bit, Scaleable Texture, Simple Face Animation, Basic Animated Texture, and Hybrid.

Six additional visual profiles have been defined in MPEG-4 Visual Version 2 [MPEG4-2]: Core Scalable, Advanced Core, Advanced Coding Efficiency, Advanced Real Time Simple, Advanced Scaleable Texture, and Simple FBA.

Moreover 2 additional profiles have been defined in the 1st Extension to the 2nd Edition of the MPEG-4 Visual standard [MPEG01a]: Simple Studio and Core Studio. And 2 profiles in the 2nd Extension to the 2nd Edition of the MPEG-4 Visual standard [MPEG01b]: Advanced Simple and Fine Granularity Scalability.

Zork

12-16-2004, 07:45 PM

troydl, not parts, you talkin bout layers. And every MPEG container got thos layers (be it MPEG 1, 2 or 4). We talkin indeed bout the first three layers (as long as you dont want to build some interactive stuff ;) ). The container aint any prob. That one is used by most out there. But it wont help you, when you arent using the correct audio and video stream codec. And this one is for now the one offered by the Frauenhofer IIS (Institut für integrierte Schaltungen - so much for the germans whining that they arent technoligical leading anymore ;) . They are building the codecs we use in almost every multimedia device on this planet !). When you got a m4a file you usin a codec licensed from them (or possibly the limited open source implementation FAAD). You got a MPEG 4 video file, you are usin there video and there audio codec. Thats the one which is used now as standard when it comes to MPEG 4 video and audio. The other ones you mentioned arent compatible with this codec. They use the same MPEG 4 container, but thats it. And thats IMHO also the source for the probs, that too many users here mismatched DivX or whatever non standard codec with MPEG 4, cause its some common mistake to mismatch the MPEG 4 container and the MPEG 4 codec. But thats the kewl point bout this thread that this mistake is solved. Hopefully there will be no newbie anymore which refer to DivX or XviD as a MPEG 4 codec. They are fine codecs and perhaps they are even more advanced in some ways, but they arent industry standard you could play everywhere everytime.

troydl

12-16-2004, 07:55 PM

Fishie_Flop

12-16-2004, 08:10 PM

In the words of Yoda

愚か彼はある

Gero

12-20-2004, 12:10 PM

Gero

12-20-2004, 12:27 PM

But thats the kewl point bout this thread that this mistake is solved. Hopefully there will be no newbie anymore which refer to DivX or XviD as a MPEG 4 codec. They are fine codecs and perhaps they are even more advanced in some ways, but they arent industry standard you could play everywhere everytime.

But i thought DivX and Xvid were silly toy projects in your opinion?..

Anyway, getting away from Video for a bit.. I love that the new Kinoma Player 3 EX plays back my iPod ACC tracks.. however, I think its important to note that quite a few people are now pointing out that Kinoma Player 3 EX playback off ACC tunes does appear to have issues. On my T3 the tracks skip and jump from time to time and especially during the first 10 seconds of the tunes. I have seen other posts regarding this here and two of my colleagues are also having this problem (one has a T3 as well, the other has a Zire 72)..

So.. it might be a good idea to wait for Kinoma to come up with a fix for this first.

Regards, Gero

junglemike

12-20-2004, 03:29 PM

Zork, you are again missing a point.
You can talk about codecs and standards for hours. Saying that quicktimes' implementation of mpeg-4 codec (not container) is better than other (which is not true of course, example: Xvid/divx5/nero digital/ffvfw....)
Saying that mp4 format (i.e container) is best, which is also not true. Example: mkv/ogm.

but let's forget about it, it doesn't matter. Lat's assume for a second that mp4 container is fine and quicktimes mpeg-4 codec is also fine.
The point is that Kinoma producer give just terrible, horrible quality - completely unaxaptable by any means. it is THAT simple. Have you seen my examples? you can try to encode video to 10-year old mpeg1 and you will see that it is STILL looks better than kinoma producer. I will give you an example: We all know that Xvid for example is (one of ) best codec when it comes to quality/size . I'm doint DVD rips for a long time. And in last years Xvid got so good that even 1cd rips are undistinguishable from source. But , from other point, i can write some application called "X" that will use only single pass, that will use lowest motion search precision, no b-frames, no-chroma optimization//........ and so on and so on. So , despite huge power of Xvid - my files done with "X" application will look like $hit.
This is similair what's going on with kinoma producer, even though i know that Xvid is better than qt's mp4, the difference is not THAT huge, Just think about it - in order to get "accptale quality" - i don't mean good, but acceptable , which means w/o guly squares (macroblocks) i need to pump up Kinoma's bitrate to 600kbit/s !!!! While With Xvid i can do it with 200kbit/s . And this means that i will have to buy huge sd cards . I alredy stated it in my prev. post - i said that player itself is OK, still having some buys and needing optimization, but it generally is OK. Producer is a crap. So i'm asking you for second time: What is you solution (better be freeware, ) for encoding movies for playback on kinoma player?