1src Forums - The perfect Sony Clie... where is it???

riversen

03-13-2003, 11:24 PM

I am new here, but I know that the perfect Sony Clie is not yet out there. Why is that? I don't know about everyone else, but I cannot use the ridiculously small keyboards. I purchased the compact keyboard and that is great. Also, I want the big screen and the speed without the accessories standard. You know Samsung and Garmen are coming out with the PDA's that may put the challenge to Sony. Here is my perfect PDA:

1. 320x480 resolution screen (in my T665 size)

2. 200 MHz (or better) ARM processor

3. 32 or more Megabytes of RAM (and more ROM, so it won't steal from the RAM like Sony does now). I am going to buy the upgrade for my T665.

4. Longer battery life like the SJ33 and switchable like the NX series.

5. NO (I repeat myself... NO) keyboard... make it an option.

6. OPTIONAL camera and Blue-tooth (only when I need it... like the MS Blue-tooth card available in Japan right now!)

7. And, of course, new Super Memory Stick compatible!

Anyone else have some thoughts that might encourage Sony to such a device?

Mastervtec

03-13-2003, 11:42 PM

memory stick pro compatible you mean right?

Aces

03-14-2003, 12:26 AM

I don't think we want a one size fits all PDA.  We as people are very diverse. Consider these different viewpoints on PDA's:

1.) Some people swear that Thumbboards are better than Graftti. Others feel the oposite (like me).

2.) Some people want everything in one device, such as camera and cellphone.  others see a value in separate battery sources for separate devices, so, for example, if you run your batteries down by using the cellphone too much, you still won't risk loosing memory in your PDA.

3.) Some will sacrifice color and even size & weight inorder to get longer battery life.  Others want the smallest, lightest device they can get.

4.) Some want a top of the line PDA.  Others want theirs to be so cheap that it's not the end of the world if they drop or loose it.

5.) If there were a perfect PDA for all, then there would not be enough cash going the PDA manufacture to keep them in business.  I just bought my 3rd PDA this month (my 1st Clie).  The only reason I replaced what I had was to get better features.  In 3 years now, I've never dropped or lost a PDA.  So without users upgrading periodically, how could Sony's PDA division stay profitable?

nsumner

03-14-2003, 08:06 AM

There truly is no perfect PDA. However what seems clear to me is Sony has a partial miss with the TG50.

Why? Because the currecnt line of T-series users don't like it and don't want it. Sure it will attract new customers and therefore I commend them on making it. Indeed many people may like it and therefore they did a great job.

However it clearly should not be the next in the T series line. It should not replace the T665C (which really ticks me off because Staples here in Canada has already sold out and I was going to upgrade my T615C but I guess now I will have to wait).

Bottom line compared to th T665C. Larger, Keyboard instead of grafitti. That makes a real big difference. It should be a new series simply the TG series not part of the T series!

My personal desire.

T series case.
320*480 screen (obviously with virtual grafitti).
Nice bright screen.
As good battery life as they can reasonably put in. I don't believe it could match the SJ33 because it will be smaller.
16 or 32MB or memory. (If it is 16 I want 16 not 11).
Memory Stick Pro support
Palm OS5.
Therefore a processor that packs the punch needed for OS5.

As far as bluetooth support, right now I don't care but I suspect sony is right to build it in. Probably much cheaper then making a seperate card avaliable. It doesn't hurt me to have it there. My only request would be if it has a significant drain on battery life the option to disable it (just like automatic recieving with beaming). If it has no significant drain on the batter then simply put who cares.

riversen

03-14-2003, 09:47 AM

"memory stick pro compatible you mean right?"

You are right... sorry about that.

I guess I am just trying to see if there is an interest in a Clie like the T665 or SJ33 with the CPU processing power, RAM, and bigger screen. Those are more important to me than a camera or keyboard. I really dislike the keyboard because my fingers are just too fat.

I know there are many people who like many different types of PDA's, but it appears to me that the basic style has been around for some time. I would like to see a basic PDA style with a little more power... that's all.

sperrier

03-14-2003, 12:41 PM

You hit it exactly nsumner, that is exactly what I want in a PDA! I just wish Sony would make it. I agree, the TG50 is NOT a repplacement for the T665, no matter what they might think.

riversen

03-14-2003, 02:16 PM

So, Steve,

Do you think that Sony will listen? I hope so. When it become available via other manufacturers, then I believe they will. I know that Samsung has a phone like this (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5108) and GarmIn is coming out with one (http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/). Maybe after they loose customers for these guys, they will backtrack quickly.

sperrier

03-14-2003, 02:38 PM

I hope they will. They have so many excellent devices, I just don't see how they could miss this for this long. Ever since the NR's came out the rumors have flew that their would be a T series with VG, etc, etc. I just hope they get one soon!

Mastervtec

03-14-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by riversen

I guess I am just trying to see if there is an interest in a Clie like the T665 or SJ33 with the CPU processing power, RAM, and bigger screen. Those are more important to me than a camera or keyboard. I really dislike the keyboard because my fingers are just too fat.

Absoolutely agreed, I would love the t665 with 480x320, vg, 200 mhz, 32mb ram!!!! That would be great!!!

quiller

03-15-2003, 12:35 AM

you don't really think Sony is accidentily missing the mark, do you? i am 100% sure that Sony is just dancing around the market throwing out the niche devices. sure, the TG50 isn't the greatest, but many people are going to buy it (including myself) for OS5/200mhz and BlueTooth. once that market dries up, they'll either release another speciality T-series or jump on it and give us our dream machine.

i stick with my theory that Sony has some of the best R&D people out there. they always come out with the right technology at the right time, and they always grab the attention-- no matter the device-- with their signature stylish looks and *something* unique in the market. right now, that something is the best resolution in any handheld. they're going to stick with Hi-Res+ as a high-end only feature, but they will release a T-series with it soon... mark my words: second quarter, 2003.

riversen

03-15-2003, 10:47 PM

I think that you really are on to something. They are setting us up to buy the TG and then get the next one after we see what is next Because there are others out there to really compete, I hope they hurry. I like Sony, but if the right now is there now... then I may give my wife my old T665. Oh, well.

sperrier

03-17-2003, 11:02 AM

I agree that they are waiting. But, they are walking a fine line between people anticipating what they have been waiting for and people being tired of waiting and going somewhere else for something that may not be exactly what they want, but closer.

riversen

03-17-2003, 12:44 PM

That is exactly where I am at. I am ready to buy the Samsung or the Garmin if they wait too much longer. I will upgrade to another vendor, even though I want to be a loyal Sony person. A T665 with all power is where I am at. Keep it basic. If Palm had the 320X480 screen, 32 Meg of Ram, and replacable battery, then I would go back to Palm. I don't understand why they do not see this? I cannot understand why they would increase the power by so much and not increase the RAM to allow applications to take advantage of this. With the power, we also need the battery. A very powerful battery or switchable would have been easy.

DazalC

03-18-2003, 09:53 AM

I think the best one would be:

fast procesor (like 66MHz or more)
a bigger screen, like nx60, with vg.
mp3 player.
32MB or ram
and a nice weight and size.
and that would be enought:P

Bryan Smith

03-18-2003, 10:05 AM

Well I palyed with the TG 50 on Sunday-of course the NZ 80 is a lot more feature rich (I know cause I own one) but the thing I do not get is the decesion sony came to in replacing Graffiti with a keyboard-it is OS 5 and so could they not have had it pop up.
The keyboard is not good!
The NZ 90 keyboard is better but still needs improvement but both are used for input-come on sony wake up.

riversen

03-18-2003, 11:34 AM

I really cannot use these keyboards because I have really fat fingers. I would be open to a usable keyboard but that would too much such a small device. That is why I bought the compact keyboard that I can pull out and unfold. I use that one all the time. Now, getting rid of the Grafitti area is not so bad if you have Jot 2.01. This uses all of the screen and the Grafitti is no longer needed (it also happens to be what Palm will use in OS5.2). Is the TG OS 5.2? I wonder if it will have this application... it should. I guess, I could even handle the smaller 320x320 screen is it had all of the other power things. I am a little flexible, but I want that power, the RAM, and the battery power. An MP3 would be very nice, too, of course.

riversen

03-18-2003, 12:20 PM

I hear you. I like it, but it needs a bigger screen and switchable battery. If they use Jot 2.01, then I think the smaller screen can work because the writing area is all over the PDA. I know the new PDA's are going to carry Jot 2.01 instead of Grafitti now, so I want to know if the TG has this. Do you know? Did the store display carry it or have it installed?

sstrasser86

03-18-2003, 02:51 PM

I know like most people i agree sony is getting there, but they are making it difficult

yOyOYoo

03-18-2003, 03:39 PM

sony will get there eventually after like 2-3 more releases.

It is strange how they operate. Its like they only produce a very limited amount of devices, then completely discontinue them after they are sold out. Look at the n710, and then n760, and then t615, t665 and Nr70v, and sj10. I mean sony doesn't really back up their products. They just keep releasing newer and newer ones and forgetting the rest. Its kind of sad.

Palm on the other hand still backs up most of its products. Its like the other way around for Palm. They make too many units and can't seem to sell out of them. They are still sticking to their trusty, m500, m515, m130, m125, m105. Compared to the way sony releases models, it seems like they have been out forever.

Its so easy for sony to make the infamous Tseries with virtual graffiti. It really sucks that they are holding it back.

just give me a T series with virtual graffit, make it the thickness of an NR70 and the height of the TG series and i'll be set. Maybe that's why they don't release it yet... they don't want people to be "settled" into one unit. THey keep holding features back, and we keep upgrading when a newer one comes out.

quiller

03-18-2003, 04:07 PM

yOyOYoo-- i think you're exactly right: they don't want us to be "happy" with a model, otherwise there is no reason for us to spend more money. the good thing about Sony is that they're PDAs are very reliable. there are still people using the N- and S-series, some two years old, without any problems. And they are definitely at the top of PDA innovation, Palm or PPC.

I am waiting for that VG T-series, as well. Of course, they could always give us the NR+ series: NR-series clamshell body with OS5 and a 200mhz processor, I'd buy it in a flash.

Eric S

03-18-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by riversen
Now, getting rid of the Grafitti area is not so bad if you have Jot 2.01. This uses all of the screen and the Grafitti is no longer needed (it also happens to be what Palm will use in OS5.2). Is the TG OS 5.2?

Two quick notes:

Common misconception: The standard Graffiti 2 is NOT Jot. It is based on Jot, but does not implement all of Jot's features, with the mentioned feature being one of the missing ones. PalmSource does say that OEMs can add that feature to the PDA (which is probably what is happening in the case of the TG50 and the i500).

Second, Graffiti 2 is being added to the PalmOS 4 line as of version 4.1.2, so PalmOS5.2 is not a requirement for Graffiti 2.

Eric S

03-18-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by quiller

I am waiting for that VG T-series, as well. Of course, they could always give us the NR+ series: NR-series clamshell body with OS5 and a 200mhz processor, I'd buy it in a flash.

The CF hump of the NX line is that much of a turnoff to you? I've got an NX-60, and the hump doesn't bother me at all. My NX-60 fits into a case designed for the NR-70 quite easily, and when I put the NX-60 in my hand, there's only one part of it that is in contact with my hand, so I don't even notice it's there, except when I lay it flat on a desk, and then the slight slope gives the keyboard a more natural feel.

Or is there something else about the NX line you don't like? (honestly curious).

riversen

03-18-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Eric S

Two quick notes:

Common misconception: The standard Graffiti 2 is NOT Jot. It is based on Jot, but does not implement all of Jot's features, with the mentioned feature being one of the missing ones. PalmSource does say that OEMs can add that feature to the PDA (which is probably what is happening in the case of the TG50 and the i500).

Second, Graffiti 2 is being added to the PalmOS 4 line as of version 4.1.2, so PalmOS5.2 is not a requirement for Graffiti 2.

Eric,

Thank you for the info. I did not know that. Can I still upgrade to Jot 2.01 with OS 5.2 or OS 4.1.2? I really like this and have since gotten rid of my TealScript... bummer cause I paid over $17 for it. I also bought FastCPU only to realize that it is so unstable to use as it runs right now. It does look great, but it is not very stable.

DazalC

03-18-2003, 09:15 PM

anyway, is good that sony keeps releasing new models.
u may not be happy with a clie, but that way, u try new things, and the technology keeps growing......

quiller

03-18-2003, 09:49 PM

@Eric S
the CF hump doesn't bother me too much, but i would rather see built-in BlueTooth than buy an additional WiFi card. otherwise, i am waiting to see the difference between then TG50 and NX60's keyboard... if i like the NX better, i will probably try to find a refurbished model somewhere or browse around the classifieds here... i refuse to purchase off of eBay.

Eric S

03-19-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by riversen

Eric,

Thank you for the info. I did not know that. Can I still upgrade to Jot 2.01 with OS 5.2 or OS 4.1.2? I really like this and have since gotten rid of my TealScript... bummer cause I paid over $17 for it. I also bought FastCPU only to realize that it is so unstable to use as it runs right now. It does look great, but it is not very stable.

Yes, PalmSource made it very clear that Jot would remain a seperate product that could still be purchased for those that wanted the features that Jot offered that Graffiti 2 didn't. They also made it sound like the hardware developers could license more of the features of Jot, they just aren't standard.

I'm having fun with TealScript now that they've got a beta out that is both PalmOS5 compatible and allows full-screen writing (only on PalmOS5 so far), though it needs a quick and easy way to turn the full-screen writing on and off, so as long as it's compatible with whatever I have, I'm not worried about the Graffiti 2 issue.

Eric S

03-19-2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by quiller
@Eric S
the CF hump doesn't bother me too much, but i would rather see built-in BlueTooth than buy an additional WiFi card. otherwise, i am waiting to see the difference between then TG50 and NX60's keyboard... if i like the NX better, i will probably try to find a refurbished model somewhere or browse around the classifieds here... i refuse to purchase off of eBay.

I can see that, you just didn't mention BlueTooth in the original post, which is what threw me. I'm reaching the point that I don't mind the clamshell formfactor as much, though I'd still prefer the NX-60 in a T or SJ formfactor. The Garmin iQue 3600 has got me tempted, but I suspect that the software support won't be nearly as complete as the Sony software support is. The Garmin also has the official Streaming Sound API instead of Sony's custom API, which is a plus, and I suspect that it will have a louder speaker. On the downside, I also suspect that the jogwheel will be like the HandEra 330 had, instead of the Sony, which is a true wheel. Time and money will tell whether or not I jump ship.

Eric S

03-19-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by DazalC
anyway, is good that sony keeps releasing new models.
u may not be happy with a clie, but that way, u try new things, and the technology keeps growing......

(don't take this too sarcasticly, it's really not meant that way)

Yeah, if the keep releasing new models at this rate, sooner or later they'll get one out that I really like :)

The NX-60 was close enough that I bought one (was feeling left out since I didn't have color and the HandEra 330 isn't that great for games). Might not have if I had known that they did their own streaming sound API rather than using the official one. Hopefully now that PalmSource has the bugs out of their API Sony will do with sound what they're doing with graphics, and include both APIs. Then again, if they're not going to document their API, I don't see much point in including it.

riversen

03-19-2003, 02:25 PM

I hear that about the Garmin. We will see. If it does have the support needed to implement and be compatible with existing and newly developed software, then I may jump ship. It is what I am looking for... with the exception of the antena... I live with it, especially since it has GPS. I have always wanted that. My hope is that they have the battery power to support it fully.

riversen

03-19-2003, 02:32 PM

Eric,

Do you think that Jot for OS5.2 or OS4.1.2 will be cheaper than the current price of $39? I cannot see paying that much for a few extra features. I did pay that much for it for my T665, though. I am asking because I will probably give my older PDA to my wife with the Jot already on it and don't want to pay that much to upgrade it for my new T996 (or whatever they call the new T665 with an ARM processor) or Garmin. I have not read much yet, so I thought that I would ask the more knowledgable one here.

DonPaqui

03-19-2003, 04:03 PM

Hi, I still don't own a PDA... that's why I'm reading all these comments to help me make a better decision.

I have a question.... if you can expand your memory easily with a memory stick why would you want a pda with 32 mb instead of 16mb? My point is, if you want to carry large files (music or photos) there is no difference if you have 16 or 32 mb.

riversen

03-19-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by DonPaqui
Hi, I still don't own a PDA... that's why I'm reading all these comments to help me make a better decision.

I have a question.... if you can expand your memory easily with a memory stick why would you want a pda with 32 mb instead of 16mb? My point is, if you want to carry large files (music or photos) there is no difference if you have 16 or 32 mb.

Those are good questions that everyone needs to ask. We need more RAM because the Palm OS applications can run only on the RAM (you can use some of your Flashable ROM if you use an application like JackFlash and/or JackSprat). This means that you can only use those applications that are on your PDA in the RAM.

If you put them on your MS (memory stick), then they may not run automatically all the time (you would have to put your stick in if you use autorun, which does NOT run all applications). I have a lot of applications that I need to access all the time (DateBK5, WorkdMate, Documents to Go, MealTip, MobiPocket, BibleReader, etc.). These applications do allow me to store the databases on my memory stick with considerable hassle (at least, this is true for me).

The problem with the memory stick is that you still have to have enough RAM to load the application onto your PDA because it does NOT run off the memory stick. This means that you always have to have a free block of RAM for them (assuming you can get them to work... lol). Some applications that are well worth buying and using have not provided support for auto loading onto your RAM from the company. (If I just don't know how to use this functionality, then someone please help me understand this so I can fully use the tool).

I have enough applications that I carry around that use up almost all of my 15 Meg's of space. Now that I have been using JackFlash and JackSprat, I have gained an additional 2 Meg's of usable ROM. I do run my music on my Memory Stick only, but there are so many applications (thousands and thousands) that I don't yet know about.

I would say that with the development of the high resolution graphics and faster processors for the PDA's, we need more RAM to enjoy the applications that run on such machines... look at the Pocket PC's that have 32 to 48 to 64 Meg's of RAM (maybe only 45 or so usable, but still pretty big).

Did I mention that games run really well on my T665, too. They do take up a lot of space. I am not one to wait to open an application to get to the game that I then have to transfer to access. My PDA is convenient and needs to be accessible quickly.

Anyone have some thoughts on this?

Eric S

03-19-2003, 06:42 PM

I'd like to think that they'd drop the price out of sheer practicality, but you never know. FYI, I haven't read anything about the Garmin being 5.2... Hmmm.... just checked the site, and they say PalmOS 5. That could be taken either way, and most upcoming ARM PalmOS PDAs that have been announced are 5.2. Then again, the Samsung i500 had been announced as using 5.2, but is due out after the estimated PalmOS 6.0 release.

riversen

03-19-2003, 06:53 PM

Palm OS 6???? What have you heard about this? Where did you read it? Any cool links to it???

Thanks!

quiller

03-19-2003, 10:14 PM

in response to the built-in RAM question: PocketPC's might have 64mb of space, but remember that the average Palm app is under 150k (excluding games), whereas you probably couldn't find a PPC app worth it's weight in cheese under 200k.

also, speaking of a T-series with an ARM processor, the TG50 fills that role. however, if you're looking for a device similiar to the T665 with OS5, it's going to have a 320x480 screen and run OS5.

also of note: OS4.x cannot run anything higher than 16mb. I also seem to remember reading OS5.0 (possibly 5.2) has this same limitation. the Garmin has 16mb internal memory and 16mb available for GPS maps. not 32mb total RAM.

cchan

03-19-2003, 10:23 PM

It ain't out there, because if it were sold, everyone would buy it and no one would buy anything new.

Unregistered

03-20-2003, 09:21 AM

Yes I agree wholeheartedly. That would be the perfect PDA. I have a T615C. I will wait. Thin would also be a prerequisite.

riversen

03-20-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by quiller
in response to the built-in RAM question: PocketPC's might have 64mb of space, but remember that the average Palm app is under 150k (excluding games), whereas you probably couldn't find a PPC app worth it's weight in cheese under 200k.

also, speaking of a T-series with an ARM processor, the TG50 fills that role. however, if you're looking for a device similar to the T665 with OS5, it's going to have a 320x480 screen and run OS5.

also of note: OS4.x cannot run anything higher than 16mb. I also seem to remember reading OS5.0 (possibly 5.2) has this same limitation. the Garmin has 16mb internal memory and 16mb available for GPS maps. not 32mb total RAM.

Quiller,

I respectfully disagree with you whole-heartedly. There is a website that upgrades some of the Palms (and Clie's) to 32 Meg's... using their proprietary software. It is possible and I know that Palm could do it in 4.1 and 5.0.

Also, if you take advantage of the ROM, you can get up to 22 Meg's (if you have T675) or 17 Meg's (for my T665). I know this is not necessarily upgrading the RAM, but it helps.

Garmin's PDA does have fully functional 32 Megs of RAM and 32 Meg's of ROM. If JackFlash and JackSprat is able to work on this, then that could be up to almost 60 Meg's of space... assuming you want to take off the GPS software (of course, I wouldn't because I think it would be cool). Samsung is able to do this right now with their phone running OS5. They have 32 Meg's of usable RAM. I don't believe the limitation is necessarily there.

Also, most of my regular applications are at 300k to 400k in size. I use DateBK5 (300 to 500K), Documents to Go Premier 5.0 (totally over 2 Megs with Word, Sheets, etc. to Go), and many others. Also, my databases have applications that are each at least 300K.

Of course, I also believe that Palm wants to compete with the Pocket PC and will drive to make it more robust and desirable.

Now if all you want is an electronic address and calender, then 16 Megs will be more than you can ever use. I find that my PDA is my replacement for a huge laptop.

These are just my few thoughts on the issue.