PalmOne announces Tungsten T5

[Joel]

New 160MB flash drive lets you carry more and do more. Docs, songs, photos. The works. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=530)]

[Joel]

Same specs as a week ago here (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=515) :D

[Salient]

This is disheartening. The T5 should be labeled as the Tungsten T|E2. This model is worth only $299, or $249 if palmOne wants to be even remotely competitive when Dell gets their new X50's out. I had been holding off all summer waiting for P1's new fall lineup, but it looks like there is no lineup, just a slap in the face from palmOne.

I, for one, shall not be buying this model, unless it drops in price by $150-$200. This model is really only a glorified T|E. A step sidewards, if not backwards. Also, shall we expect all the quality control problems the T|E has suffers from? E.g. hissing screen, poor buttons, scratch-prone case?

Will the real T5 please stand up?

[brian2]

Finally, nightmare turns into true.
Anyway, they cut $50 for T3.

[brian2]

T5= T3 +160mb SD card

Not bad, comparing with the orignal T3, but now T3 is only $349 and $50 can buy 512mb ~1gb SD card now.

[antonio55]

I was really looking forward to the T5, but since I use my T3 mainly for business, the lack of a voice recorder (shame on you Palmone) is the deal breaker for me.

Lack of Wifi is no big deal since I picked up the SD Wifi card and it works great (but sucks juice quick)...

I still can't understand what posessed palmone to remove the voice recorder...makes absolutely no sense to me....

[DonPaqui]

This would be a downgrade from my TH-55... With Sony out and Palm not innovating..... Is it time to turn to the dark side???

[ss1543]

No wifi, they didnt even put in the new os. Been with Palm since the begining but it's time to make the big switch. I'm off to visit with Bill and his buddies.

[antonio55]

oh...and 1 more thing I just noticed...

The official photo of the T5 on Palmone's website is the one everyone thought was a fake because the time at the top left was a different time than the clock on the toolbar.

I can't believe Palmone is using this pic on their site...what a joke

[Antoine]

It is only a pic from a sim. Car companies do it too with the interiors in print ads too because the lighting is not very well. It happens. If you complain loud enough, and send in a better pic, I am sure they will change it.

[Spiral]

Out of all the current line of the Palms, I dislike the Tungsten E design the most, I really wonder why they had to resuse it fo the T5.

The flash drive mountable as a removeable drive is a good idea though.

[wshwe]

Oh how have the mighty (Palmone) fallen! Dell will have a field day vith their new Axims X50s.

[Joel]

It is only a pic from a sim. Car companies do it too with the interiors in print ads too because the lighting is not very well. It happens. If you complain loud enough, and send in a better pic, I am sure they will change it.
I see these as the only way an artist can put a signature for a work. I think they're approved by PalmOne.

[winexprt]

I am completely underwhelmed by the T|5. My TH55 has it beat by a mile. Oh well...I'm of to the year 2005 to see what Palm has in store to recover from this TOTAL DUD. ;)

[gryphoraver]

Hey, I´ll Stay with my glorious Clié UX50

No WiFi, No Palm O.S. 6.0, No universal connector....

What a shame!

I really miss Sony :(

[mnapier]

I find the report on the new Tungsten T5 to be both unfortunate and least shocking.
I have been a user since 1998 when I had a Palm Professoinal and at the same time a Philips Nino (4 MB). I found that the features offered out of the box for the Palm was not as simple as the Windows CE. Over the years I have seen Palm make strides to improve both the out of the box experience for its users while offering its dedicated users (both professional and personal) new features to keep them happy.
Although, I am reading this is a device that is more designed for its business class, I am finding it hard to believe the lack of recorder, internal wifi, and up to date processor, missing; very unfortunate.
Sometimes I wonder if PalmOne would be better suited hiring some of us to help them create their next device. A few things I want to point out in regards to the T5.
No internal wifi, even as far back as 2002, Toshiba (Pocket PC) had internal wifi, which means PalmOne is at least 2 years behind their competition.
No microphone / voice recorder, as a user of the the microphone from time to time I am curious what a corporate type or other professional will think when they read the specs.
OS Upgrade support, no current indications have been included with the press release it appears. If they were working on the device during OS 6's release, then admit their will be upgrade support.
Finally, the name. Tungsten is a type of metal, as was the eluding to in regards to the durability of the product line, if this is the case then why make the shell plastic & secondly offering a list of improvements over the previous TT models.

Just some rants and observations

[Shogmaster]

My next PDA purchase is defintely the Dell Axim X-50. This latest baby step BS from Palm is the last straw.

TT5 - HVGA, no OS6, No Wifi, $400.
X50 - VGA, 3D hardware accellerated GPU, Wifi + BT, Dual slots (SD/CF), I'll gladly pay $600.

When will you wake up Palm? I never thought my NX70 would be my last Palm OS device. You have driven away yet another long time Palm user. Good job.

[clie_wannabe]

same sentiments here... when the TH55 came out here in japan, i was trying to hold out long enough... feverlously waiting for the next offering, and to be honest, had my sights at the Fujitsu LOOX... but no - held out a little longer... waiting for what PalmOne would offer (i was really expecting WiFi), and of course there is this small part in me that my NX80V (still the most all-around Palm to-date...) was just a little bit year older...

but what did PalmOne do?

sucks!!! bummer!!! i guess i would be requesting my friend to get the TH55E (from france)...

PalmOne - learn to have some innovation... just because Sony is out (but not out here in Japan), it doesnt mean for you to rest on your laurels...

what am i feeling right now?

UTTER DISAPPOINTMENT

ps:how is the battery life compared to the T3??? (does anyone know???)

[winexprt]

I'm still trying to convince myself this is all some massive April Fools gag - 6 months late.

Again...how palmOne could release a supposed 'High-End' PDA geared toward businessmen who travel, without built-in WiFi or voice recorder is totally and utterly BEYOND ME.

[clie_wannabe]

I'm still trying to convince myself this is all some massive April Fools gag - 6 months late.

Again...how palmOne could release a supposed 'High-End' PDA geared toward businessmen who travel, without built-in WiFi or voice recorder is totally and utterly BEYOND ME.

let me know of how you are doing - i think i would like to do the same...

:(

[gavinfabl]

I like the new T5, its a clever bit of marketing for people who had the TE or older machines.

Its no good for T3 users. Unless you hate the slider and battery.

Its too pricey and compare it to a HP4700 or Dell X30 and I am interested in the other side. Just waiting for news on the Dell X50.

[jjesusfreak01]

Did you notive the lack of software customization?, realplayer still doesnt run fullscreen. Also, does anyone know why the browser is titled blazer. I thought it was based on Netfront and Web Pro.

[winexprt]

ps:how is the battery life compared to the T3??? (does anyone know???)

It's supposedly much better. But that's really not saying much. Could it possibly get any worse than the T3?

From Palminfocenter:

The T5 has a 1300 mAH Li-Ion rechargeable battery, an upgrade from the previous T3 capacity. The processor also features new power management features. The Flash RAM also allows fro a greater keep alive time, as the handheld does not have to supply power to the RAM in order to preserve the memory content.

http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7193


http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palmOne_TungstenT5_1_L.jpg
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palmOne_TungstenT5_2_L.jpg

[iso]

I am also very disappionted with this release. What a dull day this has become...
I see everyone complaining about the plastic shell; where does this information come from? Have I missed it....? The T3 has a metal construction, and replacing it with a plastic one at the same entry price would be even more of a marketing failure one should think.

Christian

[Spiral]

Wow, I can't believe they cut a cradle and voice recorder just to make up for the cost of the flash rom. Tha's even more disappointing, not that i was planning on getting it. But this is amazingly poor offerings from PalmOne. At least they did put the media application from Zire 72 on, but that's just a small software upgrade.

I'm not surprised by the lack of inclusion of Cobalt though.

[winexprt]

Also, does anyone know why the browser is titled blazer. I thought it was based on Netfront and Web Pro.

So did I. The browser on this T5 is indeed Blazer. :( No NetFront...at least not yet. Hopefully we'll see a NF based browser in palmOne's first Cobalt based PDA. If they're still in the PDA business by then, after this disaster of a release. Palm has dissapointed us in pretty much every aspect of this new Tungsten...why would thier choice of browser be any different?

Communications
• VersaMail® Email Client
• SMS Messaging
• Blazer® Web Browser
• Phone Dialer
• Bluetooth® Manager

http://palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t5/inthebox.epl

[winexprt]

I am also very disappionted with this release. What a dull day this has become...
I see everyone complaining about the plastic shell; where does this information come from? Have I missed it....? The T3 has a metal construction, and replacing it with a plastic one at the same entry price would be even more of a marketing failure one should think.

Christian

It's true. It really is as bad as everyone's saying. The T5 is indeed equipped with a Plastic Body. :(

The Tungsten T5 gunmetal colored outside body is plastic and has dimensions of 4.76 x 3.08 x .61 inches (120 x 78 x 15.5 mm) and weighs 5.1 ounces (145 grams).

http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7193


I'll be shocked if this is anything but a complete flop for Palm.

[jorang]

Hello folks

The TH55 lacks bluetooth, and it "lacks" RAM.
How is this going to beat the T3/T5? Just the Wifi and the battery life? Bluetooth is essential in my opinion. Only substitute for bluetooth would be buying a device with integrated phone abilities - ie Palm Treo 650/Ace. The Wifi is not essential to me ( a bit subjective of cause... :))

But I must say that I'll stick to my T3. The T5 was a bit of a disappointment to me too. And a plastic cover - not particulary suited for those of us using the pants pockets...

[Joel]

It's true. It really is as bad as everyone's saying. The T5 is indeed equipped with a Plastic Body. :( ...
I'll be shocked if this is anything but a complete flop for Palm.

PalmOne could offer the T5 to the higher education sector... an education promo similar to the one for the Zires.

Perhaps PalmOne could even have the T5 bundled with an iBook!

[clie_wannabe]

Hello folks

The TH55 lacks bluetooth, and it "lacks" RAM.
How is this going to beat the T3/T5? Just the Wifi and the battery life? Bluetooth is essential in my opinion. Only substitute for bluetooth would be buying a device with integrated phone abilities - ie Palm Treo 650/Ace. The Wifi is not essential to me ( a bit subjective of cause... :))

But I must say that I'll stick to my T3. The T5 was a bit of a disappointment to me too. And a plastic cover - not particulary suited for those of us using the pants pockets...

the European version of the TH55 is equipped with BOTH WiFi and BT

[clie_wannabe]

It's supposedly much better. But that's really not saying much. Could it possibly get any worse than the T3?


well, it is a possibility - we could never be sure... though the capacity has increased, so did the CPU...

[Joel]

... The TH55 lacks bluetooth, and it "lacks" RAM.
How is this going to beat the T3/T5? Just the Wifi and the battery life? Bluetooth is essential in my opinion...

It's the TH55/E, the one with Bluetooth. As for RAM, I have 20MB free now. I have a 512MS where most of my apps launch from. :)

[jorang]

the European version of the TH55 is equipped with BOTH WiFi and BT

Thanks for letting me know. Suppose it supports the same BT enabled cellphones as the T3 than?

[Joel]

Thanks for letting me know. Suppose it supports the same BT enabled cellphones as the T3 than?
Yes, the TH55/E supports BT-enabled phones (I have a SE T610). Check out this thread (http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67278). :cool:

[Gero]

I find the report on the new Tungsten T5 to be both unfortunate and least shocking.
I have been a user since 1998 when I had a Palm Professoinal and at the same time a Philips Nino (4 MB). I found that the features offered out of the box for the Palm was not as simple as the Windows CE. Over the years I have seen Palm make strides to improve both the out of the box experience for its users while offering its dedicated users (both professional and personal) new features to keep them happy.
Although, I am reading this is a device that is more designed for its business class, I am finding it hard to believe the lack of recorder, internal wifi, and up to date processor, missing; very unfortunate.
Sometimes I wonder if PalmOne would be better suited hiring some of us to help them create their next device. A few things I want to point out in regards to the T5.
No internal wifi, even as far back as 2002, Toshiba (Pocket PC) had internal wifi, which means PalmOne is at least 2 years behind their competition.
No microphone / voice recorder, as a user of the the microphone from time to time I am curious what a corporate type or other professional will think when they read the specs.
OS Upgrade support, no current indications have been included with the press release it appears. If they were working on the device during OS 6's release, then admit their will be upgrade support.
Finally, the name. Tungsten is a type of metal, as was the eluding to in regards to the durability of the product line, if this is the case then why make the shell plastic & secondly offering a list of improvements over the previous TT models.

Just some rants and observations


Doesnt the Palm TC have wifi?.. isjnt that at least 2 years old?.. I guess its not a case of Palm being behind techno wise.. but more a case that they dont think WiFi is important..

It could also however be a case of the fact that the T5 is Os Garnet and not sopposed to be OS Cobalt.

Didnt palmOne say back when they started talking about OS 6 that OS 6 would be termed Cobalt and used in highend devices whereas OS5.4/Garnet would still exist as a lower end line.

So I guess this will not be upgradable from Garnet to Cobalt (otherwise whats the point of having two different lines) and the fact that it is Garnet explains why it has no Wifi. Wifi would be found on Cobalt, not Garnet.

What palmOne have got wrong is the price as a Garnet device should be cheaper.. unless of course this indicates that Cobalt will be $600.

I guess now Palm have no competion, they are getting greedy price wise.

[Gero]

I'm still trying to convince myself this is all some massive April Fools gag - 6 months late.

Again...how palmOne could release a supposed 'High-End' PDA geared toward businessmen who travel, without built-in WiFi or voice recorder is totally and utterly BEYOND ME.

High end?... isnt OS 5.4 what palmOne refer to as 'Garnet' their lower end OS?..

[Gero]

palmOne should have marketed this device as 'the new Palm OS Garnet - comparable to the current Tungsten T3, the the T5 is the first Model utilising the Garnet OS and will cost effective hand held computing needs' They then should have cut the price considerably and drawn market attention to Cobalt as their high-end OS handhelds soon to be released.

I mean, isnt this what they told us Garnet was going to be?..

I guess palmOne are getting greedy.. As they have no other palm producers to base their prices against they are charging what they want rather than what they can get hoping to sell to all those who have a problem with ppc.

[Jukov]

MY upgreade is around the corner. Years ago I've had a Handspring's Visor Delux,trying to upgrade I've sold it for !!15$!!.
It was then, when I decided not to stick to any model for over a year.So my up grade is goin' to be the Axim x-50v. This is truely a shame as for a good solid 6 years I've been a fearce Palm promoter around my friends and collegs.
I'm going to miss the Palm OS ease of use,zLauncher and Darrin's beautifull zlauncher themes, and above all the trusty Palm users' community you guys ARE the best !(I suspect I'll be seeing you on the dark side real soon, though).
:( :( :(

One (last?) question - doyou guys know a good warm Dell community to receive a disapointed Palm refugee?

[Jingo]

Oh dear, is this the beginning of the end of PalmOS PDAs? Now with the innovative Clie range gone and Palm releasing stuff like this I'm seriously tempted to jump to PocketPC - something I never wanted to do.
Sticking with my TH55 for now.

[pmconmy]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here so won't go into details, but does anyone know if the wi-fi card is definitely compatible with this machine? The palm 1 website still had it listed as working with the z72 and t3 only. Mind you the z72 looks better value for money than this....

[bisenn]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here so won't go into details, but does anyone know if the wi-fi card is definitely compatible with this machine? The palm 1 website still had it listed as working with the z72 and t3 only. Mind you the z72 looks better value for money than this....
pmconmy,
I just purchased the T5 as of 12:05 EST(USA), in the more details section at palmone store, you will find a comment that the wi-fi card is compatible with this unit. As far as I am concerned, this unit meets and exceeds all my requirements for a handheld device. In response to all the rant about the plastic case material, check the T/C, T/E all the ZZire line. This is not a new thing, my T/C gets considerable abuse and hazardous environments, still looks new. Hope you find what you are looking for.

[gavinfabl]

Yukov - try www.aximsite.com for starters. I been looking thru the forums to get info on X50 as well

[AndyJapan]

This would be a downgrade from my TH-55... With Sony out and Palm not innovating..... Is it time to turn to the dark side???

The dark side? I guess that you mean PocketPC. Well, I never owned and used a PocketPC (for more than 10 minutes), but the specs of the new HPs don`t sound bad. It`s not really `the dark side` which let`s me stay with my Clie NX60, but the money that I invested in PalmOS software. Don`t want to start from scratch... What about the other `dark side`, a.k.a. Sharp Zaurus? Not really dark, but the same problem with regards to software...

[hamsammich]

Wow.

bisenn, how in the heck did you order one? PalmOne's site doesn't even have links to buy it?

[pmconmy]

pmconmy,
I just purchased the T5 as of 12:05 EST(USA), in the more details section at palmone store, you will find a comment that the wi-fi card is compatible with this unit. As far as I am concerned, this unit meets and exceeds all my requirements for a handheld device. In response to all the rant about the plastic case material, check the T/C, T/E all the ZZire line. This is not a new thing, my T/C gets considerable abuse and hazardous environments, still looks new. Hope you find what you are looking for.

I'm still struggling to find this info, but it could be incompetence on my part! I'm just not very excited by this device and normally I'm chomping at the bit to get the newest machine. An updated tungsten c, now that I'd like to see.

[hamsammich]

Nevermind. They buried the "buy now" link pretty deep. It's not on the T|5 main page.

[Lance]

This is directed to all the people considering a Pocket PC...

When and if you go with the Pocket PC, I would appreciate feedback on the user interface. Everytime I have tried to go to a Pocket PC device, I struggle with the user interface. It is more cumbersome to get to the data I need. I am sure there must be hacks or something to improve the experience, but I have been unable to be content with the Pocket PC experience after using a Palm device for so long. When I need to access data, I need it quickly and easily. With my T3, I can navigate with one-hand and get to my data effortlessly. It just never seemed that easy on a Pocket PC.

Thanks,
Lance

[Lance]

Nevermind. They buried the "buy now" link pretty deep. It's not on the T|5 main page.I guess they really did not think someone would actually buy one! :D

Take care,
Lance

[The Palmster]

Well, I don't know. I think this reminds me of the older V/Vx series and the Palm M515 series. I like it. Problem is there is no cradle available at this time! I hate it when Palm releases handhelds without accessories!!!!!

[kp*]

I'm so confused about this leak/hoax/obviously-not-a-hoax thing, but oh well.

Now that it's here I agree with those who are saying it's a major downgrade from the TH55. No Wi-Fi, no voice recorder, and no camera. All it does have over the TH is the faster processor and more memory. But having two things in greater quantity doesn't make up for the total lack of three major features. I do hate the TH's processor, but it eventually processes. However, you can wait all day long for the T5 to connect to your Wi-Fi network or take a voice recording and it never will. :(

And I'm so sick of new handhelds that don't have OS6. Wasn't it supposed to be done and available for purchase on new models this past March? I can understand that delays happen, but every time a new model comes out and again is using OS5/Garnet it worries me.

[a_nonamiss]

Frankly, I am kinda tired of reading people bashing P1 for this unit. Sure, it's not revolutionary, but it's an improvement, especially on battery life. I don't really think the T3 needed a whole lot of improvement, and I don't think this was intended to "unseat" the T3. I'm in the (seeming) minority of people who don't need WiFi, don't want WiFi and frankly could care less if P1 ever makes a WiFi radio on their devices. I get along just fine with Bluetooth and my Motorola v710. I can browse the Internet, get my email, and do everything I want Internet-wise.

So I'm willing to admit that Dell devices still may have higher tech specs, but honestly, until they can run PalmOS, I'm not the slightest bit interested. PPC sucks. It's not stable, it's a resource hog. It has more moving parts, and having supported both PPC and POS, can say without hesitation that POS is still far superior.

In conclusion to my long rant that nobody will read, I'm not going to say "Way to go PalmOne!" but on the other hand, I don't think this is a miserable failure. I think that everyone's expectations were simply too high, and mostly unreasonable. If P1 had come out with a device with WiFi, people would complain about battery life. If it had a voice recorder, people would complain that it turned the device on in their pockets. I feel bad because I think that Palm couldn't have satisfied people after having such a long break since their last release. And to those of you still reading, no I don't work for Palm. :)

[kalel_rojin]

The buy it now link can be found here: http://store.palmone.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1865331

[Antoine]

This is directed to all the people considering a Pocket PC...

When and if you go with the Pocket PC, I would appreciate feedback on the user interface. Everytime I have tried to go to a Pocket PC device, I struggle with the user interface. It is more cumbersome to get to the data I need. I am sure there must be hacks or something to improve the experience, but I have been unable to be content with the Pocket PC experience after using a Palm device for so long. When I need to access data, I need it quickly and easily. With my T3, I can navigate with one-hand and get to my data effortlessly. It just never seemed that easy on a Pocket PC.

Thanks,
Lance
Lance, I have an rx3715 and find that it is a capable device, though I really do appreciate the PalmOS moreso because I do have it. You will want to get some plugins for your today screen, pocketgear.com is a good place to start. The PalmOS has a much better interface than the PPC in my opinion, for accessing applications quickly.

To those that are considering the PPC platform: I do hope you are making that decesion because you have a genuine need for a new device, not just because you want to get a new device. If you upgrade to the PPC out of upgrade-itis, you may find that you have wasted money. I have in the rx3715 a much better handheld than with my Zire71 in terms of dual wireless, universal remote control and 1.3MPx camera. It is better in battery life too. That does not belie the software. The user interface is just not the same. I cannot say how much having my desktop in a less than 4in box is just killing me. Heck, using the PPC made me realize how badily my desktop interface is designed. WinMobile needs help in that area. If you ask, you will find a ton of people using ZL/LX like replacements designed to minimize the complexity of the GUI. Also, be warned that you will have to purchase a bit more software to get done what you need to get done. For example, DTG comes with the T5, to get that same quality on the PPC you need PlanMaker and TextMaker. That will cost you, it is not bundled with any PPC (MS aint having that). You will find that software is of better quality, but more expensive. You will also find that the device will be more expensive unless you go with Dell. MOst of you clamor on style, I dont know that you will like the Dells. The HPs start at $500 for a dual wireless model.

Ok, sorry for the morning spew. But I wanted to clear that up for some. As for the T5, it is a good model. Maybe more expensive than we wuold want, but it is a good model. I am guessing tht P1 left out the voice recorder due to market research. Maybe their target audience did not use it as often. Maybe. Also, this was not designed for T3 owners. It was designed for those who had Visors Deluxes and m505s and now want to upgrade. For them, this will be a good upgrade and they will get similar functionality.

[Perk]

It's obvious that high end users (this web site group) are underwhelmed with this new offering from Palm and Sony's retreat from most of the world (save Japan). The question is what to do about it.

In my case I have a two year old NX70 with just about every purchased and registered piece of major software every released for Palm, which I have been using since the Palm Professional. This doesn't include probably 100 e-books for the palm reader, many I haven't even read yet.

The problem today is I need both wifi and blue tooth. I have wifi with my NX and Sony CF card, however no real solution for blue tooth. I want more memory, I'm tired of playing the launch it off the card game, especially when many apps don't work well that way even using zLauncher or power run.

Of course then I turn on my NX with the new zlauncher beta all my programs configured just as I want them (from years of playing with the settings), and I can't imagine leaving the Palm OS.

But finally one day I bought a PC and got rid of my Apple after years of fighting the Microsoft revolution. Who knows what to do. :confused: :mad:

I'm off to say a prayer for my NX to hang in there a little while longer.

[PixelPusher]

does anyone know why the browser is titled blazer. I thought it was based on Netfront and Web Pro.

Blazer is the browser developed by Handspring, PalmOne got it when they acquired them. I think I prefer the Netfront one though.

-Eric

[DeanDC10]

It seems like the T|3 just became a better deal since it dropped to $349 and IMHO is better than the T|5.

The internal flash memory is a cool idea but I have a 1GB SD card in my T3 I got for $68 it kind of blows the 160mb on the T|5 out of the water.

The only advantage I see in the T|5 is a larger battery, that's it. Everything else they did is actually a downgrade. i.e. Plastic body, no cradle, no Universal Connector, no Voice recorder, T|E body, etc, etc...

This sure seems like a marketing department driven device. They will actually sell a lot more T|3's in the future because of this T|5 (T|E2).

[gavinfabl]

I have sold my T3 to one of my friends. I have just bought the HP4700 for £430.

The T5 will cost £330 + £80 for the wifi card. Cost £410. So for an extra £20 I have got a massively more powerful machine. Loads of extra hardware accessories etc..

I love my T3, my palm os etc.. its so sad now that its gone. Now to learn how to use Windows Mobile SE.

[frodolives]

dumb question...

I have a T3, and have no plans to upgrade, but my wife is having ever increasing problems with her T1, and this unit addresses almost all of her issues -- she loves my hi-res+, she doesn't use the voice recorder or have an interest in wi-fi, and she hates the slider...

One feature that she does use constantly is the vibrating alarm...no mention of that anywhere, and I don't think the TE has one (it has been stated before, but this unit is a TE2!!!!). Anyway, does anyone know if the T5 has this feature?

[palmhiker]

It's really amazing that palmOne seems to always screw up their releases in at least one or more ways.

T-E - poor battery life
T-C - intentionally neutered the audio and no built-in mic
T-3 - poor battery life, no wi-fi built-in
Z71 - would have been great with more RAM
Z72 - peeling rubber paint, fru-fru look
T-5 - where to start? At least $100 overpriced, no Wi-Fi, plastic case, no voice recorder, no PUC and no frigging OS6??!!

This has to be the most anti-climactic release of a new Palm powered device ever.

[Jukov]

Yukov - try www.aximsite.com for starters. I been looking thru the forums to get info on X50 as well
Thanks Gavinfabl, I'll look into it.!

[Lance]

Lance, I have an rx3715 and find that it is a capable device, though I really do appreciate the PalmOS moreso because I do have it. You will want to get some plugins for your today screen, pocketgear.com is a good place to start. The PalmOS has a much better interface than the PPC in my opinion, for accessing applications quickly.

To those that are considering the PPC platform: I do hope you are making that decesion because you have a genuine need for a new device, not just because you want to get a new device. If you upgrade to the PPC out of upgrade-itis, you may find that you have wasted money. I have in the rx3715 a much better handheld than with my Zire71 in terms of dual wireless, universal remote control and 1.3MPx camera. It is better in battery life too. That does not belie the software. The user interface is just not the same. I cannot say how much having my desktop in a less than 4in box is just killing me. Heck, using the PPC made me realize how badily my desktop interface is designed. WinMobile needs help in that area. If you ask, you will find a ton of people using ZL/LX like replacements designed to minimize the complexity of the GUI. Also, be warned that you will have to purchase a bit more software to get done what you need to get done. For example, DTG comes with the T5, to get that same quality on the PPC you need PlanMaker and TextMaker. That will cost you, it is not bundled with any PPC (MS aint having that). You will find that software is of better quality, but more expensive. You will also find that the device will be more expensive unless you go with Dell. MOst of you clamor on style, I dont know that you will like the Dells. The HPs start at $500 for a dual wireless model.

Ok, sorry for the morning spew. But I wanted to clear that up for some. As for the T5, it is a good model. Maybe more expensive than we wuold want, but it is a good model. I am guessing tht P1 left out the voice recorder due to market research. Maybe their target audience did not use it as often. Maybe. Also, this was not designed for T3 owners. It was designed for those who had Visors Deluxes and m505s and now want to upgrade. For them, this will be a good upgrade and they will get similar functionality.
Thanks, d-roC. You confirmed my experiences with Pocket PC devices. While the T5 has absolutely no "Wow!" factor, I still plan on making the upgrade. The new features that interest me are as follows: Improved Battery Life: The T3 just does not last long enough. Add the WiFi card, and you are hurting for sure. Memory: It will be nice to keep all necessary information on the device itself while leaving my 1 GB SD Card to the non-essentials (i.e. music movies). In addition, you will not have to worry about backup software and/or HotSync'ing the device if you run out of power. No slider: I like the compact size of the T3, but I find myself using the larger screen more and more so the slider is getting a little annoying. Software: I am interested in Documents To Go 7.0, the bundled Media software, VersaMail 2.7.1, and the new Blazer Web Browser. I realize I am taking a risk with some of the software, but I am hoping for improvements across all the applications.Here are my comments on some of the other items: Rear Mounted Speaker: The front of the device is more practical for the speaker, period. No Voice Recorder: I really do not use it, so I will not miss it. No Built-in WiFi: I think the high-end device for PalmOne should have add this built-in, but I can understand not including it. No Cobalt: Not really a problem because I am really not ready to go through the upgrade process on all the software I own. No Vibrating Alarm: While this does not appear to be mentioned anywhere, I do not suspect it has one. I thought this was important, but I find myself turning off the alarms or using the audible alarm on my T3. Thus, it is not an important feature for me. Anyway, each one will have to consider their situation and make the decision for themselves. Obviously, the T5 is not for everyone, but it makes sense for me. Sure, it was not what any of us expected, but it has some practical features.

Take care,
Lance

[Lance]

It's obvious that high end users (this web site group) are underwhelmed with this new offering from Palm and Sony's retreat from most of the world (save Japan). The question is what to do about it.

In my case I have a two year old NX70 with just about every purchased and registered piece of major software every released for Palm, which I have been using since the Palm Professional. This doesn't include probably 100 e-books for the palm reader, many I haven't even read yet.

The problem today is I need both wifi and blue tooth. I have wifi with my NX and Sony CF card, however no real solution for blue tooth. I want more memory, I'm tired of playing the launch it off the card game, especially when many apps don't work well that way even using zLauncher or power run.

Of course then I turn on my NX with the new zlauncher beta all my programs configured just as I want them (from years of playing with the settings), and I can't imagine leaving the Palm OS.

But finally one day I bought a PC and got rid of my Apple after years of fighting the Microsoft revolution. Who knows what to do. :confused: :mad:

I'm off to say a prayer for my NX to hang in there a little while longer.
I would suggest that you consider why you are wanting another device. If what you have does what you need it to do, do no worry about upgrading. You can upgrade at any time, so do not let anyone on this board or anyone else for that matter make you believe you have to upgrade. The longer you wait, the less money you have to spend. Plus, you will get something better the longer you wait. Just because you want something does not mean you need it.

Let's face it, there are only two things that matter in this world (1) our relationship with God, and (2) our relationship with each other. If what you have and what you are doing does not contribute to these two things, I would be more worried about that than I would be if your handheld has WiFi built-in or not.

Just something to think about...

Take care,
Lance

[Gero]

Frankly, I am kinda tired of reading people bashing P1 for this unit. Sure, it's not revolutionary, but it's an improvement, especially on battery life. I don't really think the T3 needed a whole lot of improvement, and I don't think this was intended to "unseat" the T3. I'm in the (seeming) minority of people who don't need WiFi, don't want WiFi and frankly could care less if P1 ever makes a WiFi radio on their devices. I get along just fine with Bluetooth and my Motorola v710. I can browse the Internet, get my email, and do everything I want Internet-wise.

So I'm willing to admit that Dell devices still may have higher tech specs, but honestly, until they can run PalmOS, I'm not the slightest bit interested. PPC sucks. It's not stable, it's a resource hog. It has more moving parts, and having supported both PPC and POS, can say without hesitation that POS is still far superior.

In conclusion to my long rant that nobody will read, I'm not going to say "Way to go PalmOne!" but on the other hand, I don't think this is a miserable failure. I think that everyone's expectations were simply too high, and mostly unreasonable. If P1 had come out with a device with WiFi, people would complain about battery life. If it had a voice recorder, people would complain that it turned the device on in their pockets. I feel bad because I think that Palm couldn't have satisfied people after having such a long break since their last release. And to those of you still reading, no I don't work for Palm. :)


There are others of us that like this device a_nonamiss!. I think it blows my crappy T3 out the water.. in terms of battery life, slightly faster and power efficient processor, less general use of power, no more 'oh i cant watch a movie as mm player is on my other SD card' etc etc...

Also, like you, i happily check my email via bluetooth and mobile using GPRS.. (despite having a wifi network at work) dont even have to take my phone out the bag.. as long as my bag is within 10m.. I'm happy to wait for Wifi in OS6.. even then, cant ever see bothering with internet on a riddiculously small screen (cant even handle old laptops with only 800 x 600 resolution let alone 480 x 320).

Its a question of what you want and this device is likely to keep enough people happy for it to be a sucess and for those that want more.. well whats 6 months until a cobalt device is out?

[Gero]

Very deep lance! and a bloody good point! I recon some people in this forum more fantasise about wifi and thats worrying :(

[pmconmy]

I wonder how different the forums would be right now if p1 had announced the t5 and a wi-fi enabled t5+? This machine is not terrrible and not everyone wants wi-fi as has been pointed out (although I think the majority do). I am purplexed by the obsession with os6, not with the obsession with wi-fi. I don't mind them using an os which is proven and stable, particularly given the PIM enhancements.

I would like to ask all those people with t3's why they don't want to upgrade? The t3 battery is terrible. I just can't see why I would want to swap my th55 for this.

[Reggie]

Some comments:
- If you don't like the T5, then you are actually not have been included in palmOne's T5 target market. I agree with Lance. You don't have to upgrade now.
- As for OS6, why do you need it now? Aside from the better looking interface, you can only run the old 0S5.x apps. You have to wait for it a while as developers convert their apps to fully use the OS6 functionality. Just look at the new Treo 650. When it comes out, it will definitely sell, yes, even if it's only running Garnet.
- If you really need WiFi now, just get the the WiFi SD card.
- As with Mac users who are solid to Apple, a lot of us are solid to the PalmOS. Let's be patient and give palmOne time. The OS6 devices will come.

[CliePet]

Short Comments:
A disappointing model, especially after a year of Cobalt hype...

They fixed (/worked around) two of the common complaints of the T3 - battery life and only 1 SD slot
Taking away the microphone, and placing the speaker on the back were bad choices for other reasons. The list of other disappointment goes on.

BTW: For the same price, the TapWave Z2 has 128MB (real RAM), 2 SD slots, stereo speakers, and a graphics accelerator too... (targetted at gamers not business users)

Maybe something with Cobalt in 2005 or 2006.... a bad overall direction.

-----------
Does anyone know how much RAM is in this thing ??

They mention 256MB flash memory (Flash ROM), which I assume includes the 55MB of "Program Memory" (storage heap) as well as the 160MB Flash drive.

They can't build the whole thing with only Flash ROM, they need some RAM (for the system, dynamic system heap etc)
Flash ROM will make some applications run slower (ie. data stored in Flash ROM, not battery backed up RAM like in most models)

[GadgetGuru]

It's just that Palm users just ceded technical superiority to Pocket PC users...and long time Palm fans really hates PalmOne for this. If PalmOne had another high-end PDA (not smartphone), the same way HP has its 4705 or Dell its X50, then this middle-end PDA would have been nice. But as the flagship of PalmOne or PalmSource, this one just pales in comparison to it's competition. Maybe not real;ly matter in real life...but to the true Palm fans in everyone of us, it's disheartening...

[ptmin]

T6, cobalt, faster proccessor,wifi, clamshell, this is what many of us must have the patience to expect next year probably as PS completes work on cobalt which will include wifi certainly according to the recent announcements and the screenshots.
Let us leave T5 for those who really needed un upgrade for thier old devices and THE TEMPTATION TO SWITCH TO THE DARK SIDE IS BECOMING STRONGER oh that patience must have its way till T6 .
I could see that many of us are using T3,so 2 years plus will be be T6. Jukov i like reading your posts be a little patience and we shall all be satisfied eventually.
ptmin

[palmhiker]

Some comments:
- If you don't like the T5, then you are actually not have been included in palmOne's T5 target market. I agree with Lance. You don't have to upgrade now..

But who exactly is this pda intended for? It is priced on the high end of things, but lacks several features that power or corporate users would find appealing. If it were $299 and aimed at TE upgraders, then I could understand it.

- As for OS6, why do you need it now? Aside from the better looking interface, you can only run the old 0S5.x apps. You have to wait for it a while as developers convert their apps to fully use the OS6 functionality. Just look at the new Treo 650. When it comes out, it will definitely sell, yes, even if it's only running Garnet.

Agree with you on this point, but if a new version of WM had been out for nearly a year and vendors were still releasing units using the old version, we would be giving M$ fits.


- If you really need WiFi now, just get the the WiFi SD card.
- As with Mac users who are solid to Apple, a lot of us are solid to the PalmOS. Let's be patient and give palmOne time. The OS6 devices will come.

The wf-fi card is IMO a very poor substitute for built-in. I want to have wireless available to me whenever I need it, without worrying about carrying around yet another thing in my pocket. Not to mention that adding the card takes this to a ridiculous $529. It is hard to make an argument that this device, plus that card are worth anything close to that amount of money.

I have never been a fan of Apple's, but I have to say that at least they provide some level of innovation with each product they release.

I understand what you are saying, and there will likely be some decent upgrades from palmOne around the corner. However, the lack of an innovative release for so long will send many longtime Palm OS users to at least take a look at the "dark side." Many of them will not come back.

[pruss]

I thought flash was slow to write. (E.g., the last flash-based device I used, a Sharp Wizard, you had to write to flash in 64K blocks.) Is there some special kind of flash memory that can be written as fast as RAM, so they can use it for main memory?

[macattack]

I am so glad I didn't wait around for the next "big thing" from PalmOne.

Not long ago, a friend of mine offered me more money for my NX80V than I originally paid for it. It's hard to pass that kind of offer up, so I went for it. When I looked around, I didn't see ANYTHING out there in the Palm universe that was nearly as innovative as that machine (I had too many quality concerns about the UX series). Even though I have been a consisten flamer of the Dark Side's offerings in these very forums, I was once again sucked into that void. You know what? It ain't that bad. As a matter of fact, it's pretty darn good.

I got an iPAQ h4355 with WiFi, Bluetooth, a built-in keyboard, and 64 MB of RAM for $400. For that same $400, I could have waited another two months, without a handheld, and then bought the pathetic T5. No keyboard (the iPAQ's is VERY nice), no WiFi.

My past experiences with Windows Mobile (PocketPC, or whatever they were calling it at the time) was pretty bad. But they've come a long way in terms of system stabilty and ease of use.

I really think that the T5 may be the last gasp for Palm-powered devices in the high-end space. They may still rule the low end consumer market, but by the time anyone comes out with a competitive Cobalt handheld, I think that the majority of business users will have tried a Windows Mobile machine. They will discover that they're really not bad. Unfortunately, they're also going to discover that even though there are still some minor annoyances with Windows Mobile (like its very inefficient use of memory), they will get a lot more handheld for their money than the woeful T5 can begin to offer.

What a shame!

[slinger]

I thought flash was slow to write. (E.g., the last flash-based device I used, a Sharp Wizard, you had to write to flash in 64K blocks.) Is there some special kind of flash memory that can be written as fast as RAM, so they can use it for main memory?

This is the one thing that tends to worry me about this machine. I've seen no technical data as yet that describes the flash ram used and how its speed compares to regular old SDRAM. I'm not too worried about it however, as the SDRAM used in previous PalmOne models was hardly state-of-the-art either, and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they were able to make a newer, flash-enabled RAM run at least 100 Mhz like the old SDRAM.

-Robert

[iboar]

This is directed to all the people considering a Pocket PC...

When and if you go with the Pocket PC, I would appreciate feedback on the user interface. Everytime I have tried to go to a Pocket PC device, I struggle with the user interface. It is more cumbersome to get to the data I need. I am sure there must be hacks or something to improve the experience, but I have been unable to be content with the Pocket PC experience after using a Palm device for so long. When I need to access data, I need it quickly and easily. With my T3, I can navigate with one-hand and get to my data effortlessly. It just never seemed that easy on a Pocket PC.

Thanks,
Lance

Lance,

In February I switched to PPC (iPAQ h2215) after having owned the following over the past six years: Palm IIIx, m505, Clie NX60, Clie SL10, Palm TT2, and TT3. Palm OS is still easier to navigate. However, it is a much less robust OS with less features for complicated applications like GPS mapping, etc.

The PPC (WM2003) is not as easy to navigate, but it isn't difficult either. If you own a Windows computer, then you know what a true file system is like and you should be able to easily find your data and applications on a PPC. I personally prefer the PPC file system and the ease of transferring data between my desktop and PPC. I was sick of almost every file having to be converted for the Palm OS to a .PDB or .PRC. And I was sick of all Palm files in RAM being located in one folder (so to speak). If you have a lot of files then you have to scroll through a lot of files to find what you are looking for. And with the Palm, it isn't always easy to interpret which file is data, which is application, which is a support file. With the PPC, like with Windows, icons make it easy to see data files--easier than Palm in my opinion.

Everyone,

My personal bent on the T5 is that it is a good (though too pricey) upgrade from pre-T3 Palms and Clies. I had a T3 and I don't think the T5 is worth upgrading to from a T3 unless you simply must have the non-slider form factor. I'm happy Palm FINALLY created a 320x480 non-slider form factor, but the T5 seems to be too little, too late, and too expensive. Compare my iPAQ 2215 that was released approximately a year ago. It has dual CF and SD/SDIO card support, 400mhz ARM processor, BT, voice recorder, so forth and so on which makes it very comparable feature-wise to the just released Palm T5. To me that suggests that Palm is about one year behind their competition in design features--and that is sad. :(

[gusanitoverde]

NO VOICE RECORDER! I can't believe it!

[Reggie]

I would agree that the T5 should have been a E2. I think palmOne decided on the "T" to stress that this is THE Garnet model that differentiates it with the others. palmOne releases this model to show off what the standard Garnet device comes built in. Note how palmOne made it more usable out of the box by placing Docs to Go and VersaMail in the ROM. Connection is native via USB, and a new file manager somes integrated. Probably these are not "innovation" for some but hey, these are some quite notable enhancements.

For those who are thinking of switching to PPC, by all means, switch, and check out all it's features (read d-roc's reply as well on this thread). What makes me stick to the PalmOS is the new reports regarding OS 6.1. I just know it will be a hit.

[slinger]

What makes me stick to the PalmOS is the new reports regarding OS 6.1. I just know it will be a hit.

PalmOS 6.1 cobalt will definitely be a hit, if it ever makes it to market in something other than a smartphone. From an internal standpoint, OS 6.1 is a far more efficient and multimedia-savvy OS than WM2003SE, and with the 6.1 release PalmSource has remedied two of the most major omissions of the 6.0 release: the lack of VGA support, and the lack of screen-rotation support.

Unfortunately, it looks like we won't see any devices with 6.1 for another six to nine months, and that's just a ballpark figure. Obviously PalmSource recognized that the Cobalt OS was facing a major defeat by WM2003SE in terms of VGA and rotation support, so they hurriedly added it in to the 6.1 release. Unfortunately PalmOne is the only major licensee releasing any PalmOS based devices at the moment, and they are apparently in no great hurry to support their namesake's new pride-and-joy OS.

-Robert

[Lance]

Lance,

In February I switched to PPC (iPAQ h2215) after having owned the following over the past six years: Palm IIIx, m505, Clie NX60, Clie SL10, Palm TT2, and TT3. Palm OS is still easier to navigate. However, it is a much less robust OS with less features for complicated applications like GPS mapping, etc.

The PPC (WM2003) is not as easy to navigate, but it isn't difficult either. If you own a Windows computer, then you know what a true file system is like and you should be able to easily find your data and applications on a PPC. I personally prefer the PPC file system and the ease of transferring data between my desktop and PPC. I was sick of almost every file having to be converted for the Palm OS to a .PDB or .PRC. And I was sick of all Palm files in RAM being located in one folder (so to speak). If you have a lot of files then you have to scroll through a lot of files to find what you are looking for. And with the Palm, it isn't always easy to interpret which file is data, which is application, which is a support file. With the PPC, like with Windows, icons make it easy to see data files--easier than Palm in my opinion.iboar,

I appreciate the response. Eventually, I will probably try the Dell Axim v50v when it becomes available. For me, I really like all the features of the new devices, but I still wish they could add the functionality while keeping the simplicity of the first Palm devices. For a handheld device, I do not want a PC in pocketable form. I want the simplicity of paper/pencil with the power of the PC. When a company can produce something that intuitive yet that powerful, we can go about living our lives without the nuisance of technology. I guy can dream. Right? ;)

Thanks,
Lance

[sth]

I'm pretty disappointed. What now? I don't want a PPC but hardware-wise the Axim X50 seems to be exactly what I'm looking for... :(

[CliePet]

> I thought flash was slow to write.
It is, significantly slower than RAM to write, fast to read.
Also every time you write to it, it degrades a little (typically flash ROMs are speced at 100,000 or 1 million erase/write cycles)

----
There are two issues.
First is how fast can they write to the storage heap (Program Memory) ?
This is similar to how 'JackFlash' operates, but I assume it will be better integrated.
In a regular PDA (eg: the T3), it flips a few bits to turn off the write protection, then copies to fast RAM, then turns on protection again - pretty fast. Also makes it possible to move around big blocks of memory easily to defragment on the fly.

Secondly, how much true RAM is there ?
There needs to be *some* RAM, for the system, and the dynamic heap (typically 10MB or so on palmOne devices).
The contents of this RAM must be backed up (either by battery or by copying to Flash ROM every time you turn it off) - otherwise it would be like a 'soft reset' every time you turn on the PDA.

Keeping the RAM powered all the time contributes to battery drain (the 64MB inside the T3 or the 128MB inside the Tapwave Z2 are power hungry)

There are some technical questions that need answering...

[Pablake]

It will be interesting to see how quickly Palm can come up with a Cobalt device with wifi built-in... surely the next step? The T5 has the air of a stop-gap product, something to plug the gap leading up to Christmas... And if Palm is getting ready to launch Cobalt devices wouldn't it be logical to launch them not under the Tungsten umbrella but as a whole new range? It is just a shame that that isn't happening this year...

For what it is worth I moved from a PocketPC (an Ipaq 3970) to a Sony UX50 earlier this year and find the UI just so much better. No regrets from me...- with my Ipaq I always seemed to spend half my time trying to remember how to do things, or giving up altogether and using my PC instead... And I now have wifi, bluetooth *and* a decent keyboard in a single device...something that no PocketPC could offer. With Sony out of the game I do wonder, however, what the upgrade path for me will be 18 months down the road and whether I'll be moving back to PocketPC...

[slinger]

> I thought flash was slow to write.
It is, significantly slower than RAM to write, fast to read.
Also every time you write to it, it degrades a little (typically flash ROMs are speced at 100,000 or 1 million erase/write cycles)

----
There are two issues.
First is how fast can they write to the storage heap (Program Memory) ?
Secondly, how much true RAM is there ?
There are some technical questions that need answering...

I can't believe that this type of flash memory is what they're using. What you're describing is flash ROM, not flash RAM. Flash ROM is characterized by the degradation of the ability to hold data after thousands of writes, and by the fact that although data can be read from flash ROM in a totally random manner, it cannot be written to in this way. Flash rom must be written serially on a per-sector basis, much the way a hard drive is written.

If PalmOne used flash ROM as the basis for the memory system, we'd be looking at a device that performed at something equivalent to 1 percent of the speed of the T3, plus it would become increasingly unstable as the flash ROM system began to decay in certain sectors.

Flash RAM does not have the same operating characteristics as flash ROM and behaves in basically every way just like regular RAM except it does not require any periodic refresh, therefore using less power and being impervious to data loss as a result of power loss. The real question in my mind is do they have flash RAM that can run at the same speed as SDRAM? I'd hate to see that PalmOne had introduced a new device with the much more efficient PXA270 processor only to hamstring it with slow RAM...

I guess we'll see soon enough.

-Robert Hildinger

------------------------------------------

EDIT:

Okay I just did a little research on flash RAM and realized that there is no real difference between flash ROM and flash RAM, so everything I said above about flash RAM characteristics is apparently wrong. Sorry about the misinformation and I will consider myself appropriately flogged for it!

[PixelPusher]

As I understand it the system will reserve space in the 256mb for a compressed backup copy of the ram. (Not sure when the backup is updated). There is 64MB of traditional SDRAM memory in the unit and 256MB of Flash ROM. 160MB of the Flash memory will be available for use as storage. It's a pretty good idea actually.

-Eric

(I have been trying to find the original article about the compressed image and have been unsuccesful. Can anyone confirm if I am correct on this or not? The article also talk about it taking 2 resets to restore the memory on the T5. I could be totally off base about this, but this is what I remember reading.)

[phxchristian]

This would be a downgrade from my TH-55... With Sony out and Palm not innovating..... Is it time to turn to the dark side???

Now is not the time to turn to the darkside... (Heavy Breathing)
I would wait until your current device gives out at least... We don't need the current thing to be happy... If we make this decision, maybe Palm will start to make their OS upgradeable for like 50 bucks rather than coming out with a new device that is lackluster in performance and every other department. I for one, am perfectly happy with my NX70V with OS 5 and MCA clie pet help... and my WL100 gets me online reliably every time... It's our consumerist society that makes Palm make dumb decisions like the TE/2 (T5)...

[mnapier]

Lance, the moderator, & others,
I have come to the conclusion that the primary reason why alot of us have replied (minus those who have not upgraded in a couple of years) to this news is because we have become addicted to new tech.

I find myself from time to time reviewing the trades in multiple media forms (magazines, web, television, etc.). One thing is clear, I know there are days that I wake up and think about the next big offering in regards to PalmOS devices. But the simple fact is this, manufacturers of the OS and handheld, make their choices in order to innovate, maintain market share, and in some cases gain market share. Although, it is regretable for those who wished for new features, such as built in wifi or better browser, or even a new OS we will just have wait or go out and buy either the competition / "older" PalmOS device (Tungsten TE or T3) .

I find myself time and time again, seeing posts of the ills of PalmOne or PalmOS itself and can honestly say, the grass isn't any greener on the otherside. Many of you are thinking of upgrading your devices to a PocketPC OS, don't. I say this as much as I would tell anyone who wishes to move Europe, outlets. Ever gone on vacation and the first thing you have to think of is, where am I going plug my stuff in and what "additional" hardware do I need to adapt.
Same is true with PocketPC, this may appear to be a better option because of constantly released devices and apperance of better Windows support, but face facts, unless you are using this as PIM (Person Information Manager) you will only end up regretting all the money you spent on software & hardware.
Although, I am one who addicted to new toys, I can honestly say I am only here to bely the lack of features, but will never switch over to PocketPC, simply because I have invested too many years and too much money in software hardware to jump ship. Some clarification is needed.

Wifi - although a great item to have not required if you have a laptop
Vibrating alarm - a decent feature but it appears with the of the smart phones (Treo, etc.) this feature serves no purpose, I know myself I use it only as an additinal item.
Upgraded OS - I agree with Lance on this one, since their currently isn't enough applications out there that have indicated they wish to offer support.
Shell - would have been nice to keep with the "Tungsten" feel but again, not necessary unless you like the idea of a metal handheld. Note, I have dropped my T3 a couple of times and have to admit its hard to tell if I would still have one without the metal casing.
Mic / Recorder - myself, I dont' use this button (unless you count as a "back" button for application navigation.
Cradle / Universal connector - not a terrible thing since I don't have many m500 or greater hardware that required this connector. Cradle would have been nice but "a flashlight can sometimes work as well as a lamp..", so not a big loss.

Lance, thank you for your poignant observations, and I do agree with alot of the audience as well. Just bear in mind this is not reality even if it appears from time to time that the manufactures are not living in one either. Life is short, so pick your Palm or if you feel the need PocketPC wisely.

[phxchristian]

iboar,

I appreciate the response. Eventually, I will probably try the Dell Axim v50v when it becomes available. For me, I really like all the features of the new devices, but I still wish they could add the functionality while keeping the simplicity of the first Palm devices. For a handheld device, I do not want a PC in pocketable form. I want the simplicity of paper/pencil with the power of the PC. When a company can produce something that intuitive yet that powerful, we can go about living our lives without the nuisance of technology. I guy can dream. Right? ;)

Thanks,
Lance

HMM, hard to think of something rather than buying a tablet PC, Vaio U70 or U50 (BenQ OGO) I think that's the name...

[thebiggun]

Do you think that this could be this years T2? Remember when it was released it was really just a fill in until the T3 was ready? Could we see a T6 in the near future with all of our hopes and dreams fulfilled (ie, WiFi, recorder, Cobalt 6.1, etc). From what I read on Brighthand, the T5 was to far into it's existing design to retrofit Cobalt into it so they had to stick with Garnet. Could something better be on the horizon? Palm has done it before (I bought a T2 and then bought a T3 when released) and they could do it again!

[hherbzilla]

I would like to ask all those people with t3's why they don't want to upgrade? The t3 battery is terrible. It depends on usage. My T3's battery life is perfectly fine with me. Most of the day it's in the cradle next to my computer. When I have appointments or am running errands, I take it with me and use it for grocery lists, checking phone #s, taking notes, checking my calendar, playing games, etc. However, even with more extended use, I've haven't yet had to worry about running out of juice.

My T3 purchase is relatively recent, and was an upgrade from an NX70V. I'm very happy with it: I like the slider, the smaller size, the extra memory, the overall design. I'm glad I purchased the T3 and didn't wait for the T5! http://www.1src.com/forums/images/smilie/images/smilies/smile.gif

I know most of us are gadget freaks and look forward to exciting new products, but I really don't understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it's not what we expected/hoped for. I certainly don't have any thoughts of moving away from the PalmOS platform. I truly don't see any compelling reasons, especially in light of my huge software investment.

Anywho, there will be other days and other announcements. People shouldn't expend too much energy venting over the T5. Just my .02. http://www.1src.com/forums/images/smilie/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sid]

Just add me to the ranks of the disappointed and underwhelmed. :mad:

[TomP]

I'm intrigued as to how much additional battery life this device is actually going to have. Obviously it has a larger battery (not exactly sure how much as I've seen both 1100mAH and 1300mAH reported).

The other thing that people keep refereing to is that because it has flash RAM the regular RAM won't need to "kept alive". There are two things about this:
Firstly if it has say 64Mb of conventional RAM which is backed up into flash when the device is powered off then I reckon they'll probably keep the conventional RAM powered up all the time, copying 64Mb of RAM everytime you switch on is pretty time consuming (for an instant-on PDA).
Secondly: Regardless of the first flash RAM actually requires more power to write to it (and slightly more to read from) that conventional RAM.

I'm not saying there won't be a battery life improvement because I think (I hope...) there will - just don't lknow how much it will be.

T.

[IndyDave]

Could a TC replacement be the PDA we're all waiting for?

new connector/usb drive connector
replaceable battery ala Treo 650
possibly a metal case? (definitely needs more sophisticated casing)

don't know about screen...
would 320x480 be possible w/o losing the keyboard?

Am I deluding myself to allay my disappointment and fear of the dark side?

[adamsmark]

Plain and simple, I need more.

By the way, is it true that it does not use a universal connector? What would I do with all my accessories I bought for the T3?

[minhtruc]

Interesting! Amazon today increases the T3's price from $335.99 to $349.99.
Perhaps they expect strong sale on the T3s because of the T5 crap.

PalmOne, the reason why you decided to use E's casing for the T5 is totally beyond me.

[Sid]

<snip>
I would like to ask all those people with t3's why they don't want to upgrade? The t3 battery is terrible. I just can't see why I would want to swap my th55 for this.
- I've had my T3 for only 8 months, I'm too frugal to upgrade already, but aside from that:
-416 MHZ versus a 400 MHZ processor, no reason there.
-Plastic body versus metal, no reason there.
-No voice recorder, no reason there.
-No Slider, I like the slider, so again, no reason.
-No Universal Connector.
-Speaker on the back versus front speaker.
-No WiFi, well I already don't have WiFi now.
-No Cobalt, again, I already don't have Cobalt.
-Only 1 expansion slot, That's how many I have now.
-Bluetooth, have it already.

-More RAM, well this is a nice feature, but I have SD cards and still have 32 MB unused RAM onboard.
-Better battery, this is good news, but this alone is not enough enticement to upgrade.

[LeeD]

This would be a downgrade from my TH-55... With Sony out and Palm not innovating..... Is it time to turn to the dark side???

Very very true... No Sony anymore to do the real inovation and technology creation..

What happened to the day when Palm used to BE the inovator. Used to BE the leader in technology in PDAs.

Now they're just a follower... The T5 is still nice though, nice improvements, but over priced for it's capability.

[pmconmy]

- I've had my T3 for only 8 months, I'm too frugal to upgrade already, but aside from that:
-416 MHZ versus a 400 MHZ processor, no reason there.
-Plastic body versus metal, no reason there.
-No voice recorder, no reason there.
-No Slider, I like the slider, so again, no reason.
-No Universal Connector.
-Speaker on the back versus front speaker.
-No WiFi, well I already don't have WiFi now.
-No Cobalt, again, I already don't have Cobalt.
-Only 1 expansion slot, That's how many I have now.
-Bluetooth, have it already.

-More RAM, well this is a nice feature, but I have SD cards and still have 32 MB unused RAM onboard.
-Better battery, this is good news, but this alone is not enough enticement to upgrade.


Interesting. I didn't like the slider when I had a t3 (I sold it) and I never use a voice recorder so these things don't bother me. The battery life with bluetooth on did annoy me. I use wifi all the time and prefer built in but the t5 RAM/card combo is an ok compromise (for a midrange machine note!). Wonder if the treo 650 will use the wi-fi card?

[PixelPusher]

I think much of the power savings will be from the newer processor. Intel has made a lot of strides in reducing the power consumption of the xScale chips.

-Eric

[Jukov]

T6, cobalt, faster proccessor,wifi, clamshell, this is what many of us must have the patience to expect next year probably as PS completes work on cobalt which will include wifi certainly according to the recent announcements and the screenshots.
Let us leave T5 for those who really needed un upgrade for thier old devices and THE TEMPTATION TO SWITCH TO THE DARK SIDE IS BECOMING STRONGER oh that patience must have its way till T6 .
I could see that many of us are using T3,so 2 years plus will be be T6. Jukov i like reading your posts be a little patience and we shall all be satisfied eventually.
ptmin

1. Thank you for a compliment:)
2. My reason not to wait is this: I own a year old T3 which I paid 480$ for.( I'm not in US so taxes, etc). Now the price on this model drops by 50-60 $ (new) minus solid 50$ for second hand, minus 20-30$ for the "but there are so many better units" buyer factor. It's 350$. Should I wait longer all the "minuses" are growing : the price for new T3 will drop more, say 70$-80$, my T3 getting older ( scratches, battery life, etc) = 100$, more devices coming out ( like Axim or even T5) so buyer factor = 50$-70$. That's 220-240$ - this is half price(!). All this if I would be able to find a buyer in a year time from now.
On the tech side- what I need from my pda is:
WiFi - as we are getting wired by intel (we as a city) with free internet access, so it is a must for me
Fast proccessor - (500+ MHz ) for web browsing
Bluetooth
Dual SD slot - not a must but Ihate forgetting my SDs all the time.
VGA- just because I like it, can you blame me for that ;) ?

I must say I love Palm OS, I would love to see it even on my PC. As a 24/7 PDA user I need the simplicity of using, but simplicity isn't everything - do you see yourself buying a Vx after all the featuers of the modern PDA you've got used to?

[PixelPusher]

Could a TC replacement be the PDA we're all waiting for?

new connector/usb drive connector
replaceable battery ala Treo 650
possibly a metal case? (definitely needs more sophisticated casing)

don't know about screen...
would 320x480 be possible w/o losing the keyboard?

Am I deluding myself to allay my disappointment and fear of the dark side?

I have the TC currently and I hate the keyboard! I find that using it is way slower than the popup keyboard or grafitti. Maybe it would have a little more utility if it were backlit, but the way it is now, I just don't like it.

The metal case isn't that big of a deal to me. It sure didn't protect the TC screen when I dropped it.

I agree on the Universal Connector, I wish they had kept it. I have 2 cradles, the travel charger and the portable keyboard.

-Eric
Palm user since the Palm1000.

[winexprt]

High end?... isnt OS 5.4 what palmOne refer to as 'Garnet' their lower end OS?..

A 400+ dollar gadget 'lower end'? Hardly. What's 'High End' to you then...6, 700 dollars!? ;) Sorry, but for most people who aren't techno gadget freaks like a lot of us here, 400 dollars for a PDA is a HECK of a lot of money, regardless of whether or not palm considers it high end. :)

[Vidge]

I have been using a PPC (hp4155) side-by-side with my T3 since late June. What I've tried to do is replicate the usage between the two units. It hasn't been easy, especially with 8+ years and 10 PalmOS PDAs behind me but I've given it a go. I find the user interface of the PPC to be cumbersome. And I was quite surprised to discover that one-handed operations, such as dialing phone numbers from my address book, are next to impossible. My PPC requires quite a bit more stylus entry than I have become accustomed to. But the major reason I cannot use my PPC as my primary unit is the reliability of alarms. No matter what I try, I can't get the alarms to play loud enough nor reliably enough to be heard. I can hear my T3 alarms in another room - I can't even hear my 4155 alarms with the device in my purse.

I was hoping against hope that the TE2 (I will not call it a T5) would NOT be as rumored: no Wifi, new connector. Unlike the T2, which was a significant upgrade over the TT, the T5 is not an upgrade to the T3, even as a stopgap. The only advantage - a larger battery - is far outweighted by the real disadvantage of the lack of a UC, rendering all my accessories, most notably my Enfora Wifi Portfolio, useless. I understand that I am not a part of the target market for this device. But Palm expects me to wait for a unit that is an upgrade? How long am I supposed to wait? It's already been a year.

I know the standalone PDA market is dying. And that a lot of the manufacturers are pulling out. But there are too many people on both sides that pretty much want the same thing: a small, user-friendly device with decent battery life, Wifi & BT, and user replaceable batteries. HP didn't deliver and now Palm hasn't. If this is what's to come, perhaps we all better find another product to replace our PDAs.

[Jukov]

Just a thouht- maybe I'll upgrade to TH-55. What do you think, TH users? T3 vs TH-55...

[PixelPusher]

Just a thouht- maybe I'll upgrade to TH-55. What do you think, TH users? T3 vs TH-55...

From what I understand, that prices on the TH-55 have started to go up! So you better act quickly.

My only concerns about the TH-55 is that it is a bit of a dead end device and the processor is only 123mhz. (I guess it has some sort of display accelerator that makes up for the slow processor in many ways.)

-Eric

[IndyDave]

I know the standalone PDA market is dying. And that a lot of the manufacturers are pulling out. But there are too many people on both sides that pretty much want the same thing: a small, user-friendly device with decent battery life, Wifi & BT, and user replaceable batteries. HP didn't deliver and now Palm hasn't. If this is what's to come, perhaps we all better find another product to replace our PDAs.

Although I find the rz lineup to be cheap looking and feeling, there is some hope HP hasn't completely wiped out. Check out the rumored hz photos from PDAlive. Not too shabby and more realistic expenditure of HW funds, SW be damned.

http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=7205

[mikegehl]

WiFi - as we are getting wired by intel (we as a city) with free internet access, so it is a must for me

Heaven's getting WIFI??? Amazing! :D

[CliePet]

slinger wrote:
> ...
> Okay I just did a little research on flash RAM and realized that there is no real difference between flash ROM and flash RAM, so everything I said above about flash RAM characteristics is apparently wrong....

Actually you do have a point, but your terminology is a little off (not related to ROM)

There are two kinds of RAM, SDRAM (Synchronous DYNAMIC RAM) and SRAM (Static RAM).
Most devices use SDRAM because it is cheaper (fewer logic gates per bit of storage), but requires the refresh cycle and eats more power.
Not sure what the power miser TH55/VZ90 CLIEs use.
------
PixelPusher wrote:
> As I understand it the system will reserve space in the 256mb for a compressed backup copy of the ram.

That's my guess too (considering the problems with writing to flash on the fly)
More like the way the UX50 does it's power down mode, but hopefully faster. Not sure if they need to do compression or not.

If you look at the storage specs, it is pretty obvious.
If they did it any other way, they wouldn't have *only* 55MB of Program Memory, they could go all the way up 224MB...

---
(SPECULATION)
The 64MB of RAM would be used just like the T3 (~55 MB Program memory, rest system memory)

They bumped the flash ROM to 256MB (the T3 has only 32MB)
System ROM - 32MB
Flash drive - 160MB
Backup space - 64MB (for all of RAM)
[notice total is exactly 256MB]

Program Memory remains in RAM for a number of reasons, speed, backward compatibility, and minimal system changes.
The RAM will consume power when the PDA is on.
When turned off it can copy the changed data to flash (smarter than the UX50 I hope), and turn off power to the RAM chip.
When turned on, it powers up the RAM chip, and restores the contents from the flash ROM backup

[winexprt]

...
Let us leave T5 for those who really needed un upgrade for thier old devices ...

ABSOLUTELY! You hit the nail right on the head. I think this is the only segment of the market who will really benefit from, and really enjoy buying & using this new T5. Let's be honest...if you're coming from a very old or just older PalmOS PDA, this thing will be an amazing machine for you!

If, like most of us here you have a excellent PDA already (TH55 in my case), getting the T5 would be an excercise in lateral mobility. Sorta pointless.

[IndyDave]

The metal case isn't that big of a deal to me. It sure didn't protect the TC screen when I dropped it.

-Eric
Palm user since the Palm1000.

I have seen and played with the TC, and I thought the case was plastic. In any case, I think the CASE not breaking/cracking would be the main purpose of a metal casing. On the other hand, a metal protective case from Innopocket/Proporta or PDAir might have saved the screen.

I dropped my 515 in aluminum hard case from the top of the steps in front of my house and watched as it bounced no less than three times, on its edges, before landing facedown and skittering across the sidewalk into the street gutter. After a few nauseated minutes, I had the guts to open the case and it was fine.

[Jukov]

Heaven's getting WIFI??? Amazing! :D

:D :D :D LOL big time
Finally the Big Boss got up-to-date with modern technology. Now all your prayers are getting transfered to Him by our new WiFi network :D :D :D
But He owns a T3 so our prayers for better Palm haven't reached Him, sorry guys!

[clicclic]

Someone may have already mentioned this, but this device screams "we don't have the people-power or the leadership to keep up with Dell/PPC!"

That would be their "honest" PR-spin confession after a few cocktails at the Los Gatos Country Club. From what I can tell, the truth is they have poured ALL their talent and man-hours into smartphone work. They know the PDA is going to morph into the smartphone and they're putting all their work into the latter.

This device seems like a major series of compromises to save time and try to profit off the super LOW LOW cost of Flash memory. Go to ecost (http://www.ecost.com) and you'll see what i mean. Palm's trying to keep their T3 price point and not spend a cent on new technology.

[NJL!2016]

I'm somewhat dissapointed in palmOne. Yeah, the flash drive is cool, but it's kind of a "vanilla" PDA (You know, nothing special)

[winexprt]

Just a thouht- maybe I'll upgrade to TH-55. What do you think, TH users? T3 vs TH-55...

OH MY GOD! Not even a contest! You be wondering why you never got the TH 7 months ago! :D

It's SUCH a superior little machine. Battery life never ceases to impress me. Built-in WiFi, GORGEOUS high-res+ screen, beautiful form factor, impeccable construction...all in a thin, slim form factor. What more can I say!? ;) :D

You couldn't PAY me enough to give up my Clie TH55 for a T3, T5 or T-anything from palm! LOL :p

[NJL!2016]

I think that palmOne spent too much time on the memory structure and flash drive functionality that they forgot to include WiFi. I agree, this device should have cost $100 less and been called the Tungsten E|2.

[jackj]

I waited in greatest anticipation that the rumors will be incorrect, but that was not meant to be. Why will palmone do this to us? It is a great disappointment to say the least. I will continue to save my money for the next Tungesten 6. If palmone will get my money, they need to include these, in addition to what they currently have on T-5.
1. wifi
2. microphone
3. camera
4. cobalt 6.1
Sony Corp implemented all of the above except putting cobalt in TH-55, (now going to one year) with the best price point, why can't palmone at least this match it. Are we on "Diet Program", where you pay more to get less. Palmsource should hurry up and get some other manufacturers to excite us with innovation and competitive pricing. Samsung Corp can you help, do pda not just pda phones. We need competition to bring palmone back to its creative position. It is wrong for palmone to believe that they will neglect their root (pda) and focus only on pda phone and still remain successful. Afterall, pda phones are getting better only because of the innovations in pda. PALMONE, please wake and listen to your greatest assets, palm royal customers. Do not drive us to the arm of pocket pc, because microsoft will gladly have us.

[pmconmy]

Just a thouht- maybe I'll upgrade to TH-55. What do you think, TH users? T3 vs TH-55...

Since I'm in Europe and we got the dual wifi/bluetooth model I'd say no contest, depends whether you use bluetooth or wifi more in the US*. The th55 is noticeably slower on some games like Chainz than the t3 but most of the time you won't know the difference. And the battery life is just amazing.

*not sure which continent heaven is on
:p

[nx70]

Its true- they did not listen to their customers.
Where is my Wi-Fi?? Where my BlueTooth?
How about the new Cobalt OS?
Where is my Universal Connector gone?
I dont know how the battery life is going, but I hope for Palm that this unit is at least lasting for 4hours continued using with full backlight. I as well expect this machine to enable switching off the backlight.
Palm you should now learn from Asus and other in the PPC area or you will loose many of your customers.
You heard of VGA-Screen? Heard of more than 15hours work power in a colour PDA? Yeah this is what we are expecting to be developed.
I am glad you bring the new T5 so prices for older units will drop.
Shame on your developers- where is the invention? Improvement?
Shame on you.. :mad:

[minimalposter]

I know there are alot of users in the same boat as I am. I have a T1 which has been great but is getting a little worn out. So now what? Do I move up to the T3 (which just went UP in price on Amazon) or the T5. Honestly I want to wait until for the next device but I am not sure I can wait that long and I have no faith that the next device will be that much better.

[DeanDC10]

I know there are alot of users in the same boat as I am. I have a T1 which has been great but is getting a little worn out. So now what? Do I move up to the T3 (which just went UP in price on Amazon) or the T5. Honestly I want to wait until for the next device but I am not sure I can wait that long and I have no faith that the next device will be that much better.


Without question I would say the T3, especially if you have extra things that connect to the UC (Keyboard, Battery, Modem, chargers, cradle).

I don't know what Amazon changed threr price to, but I'm sure you can find good deals on the T3 until they figure out that the T3 is actually better than the T5 and then raise the price back up again. Get a T3 soon.........

[Hawkeye]

<peering at a Axim X30> not worth the GUI.

By the way, what the H.ell is going on with Palmone, they abandoning their faithful Windows98 Users? look here http://www.palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t5/specs.epl
I dont know about all of you but i dont have the money to get any new PC. I personally dont want to waste my money on any wireless. But an upgraded E if its under $275 would be great. But why would they kill all us 98 users, 98 is still ok, sure my PC is too slow to run anything newer. BUT DONT ABANDON US ENTIRLY, AND MAKE A DECENT T|E2 While your at it

Sorry 1src's network must be being stressed to its limits and so is my machine just trying to hold this connection

[Reggie]

I've st up a new T5 poll at the main page. Please vote if you have time.

[DeanDC10]

I've st up a new T5 poll at the main page. Please vote if you have time.

You got a link? which main page?

[Yorker]

Ok - so the t5 is a dud. When do we get to see the rumour mill proper on the t6? I dunno, the posts are all so negative but really, what is there to get excited about? A built in sd card.

[wellsjs]

I'm still trying to convince myself this is all some massive April Fools gag - 6 months late.

Again...how palmOne could release a supposed 'High-End' PDA geared toward businessmen who travel, without built-in WiFi or voice recorder is totally and utterly BEYOND ME.AGREE! There are some things that change everyday, like the comic strip on "My Yahoo" page, and like winexprt's avatar! :p

Then there are things that don't change when they should . . . like Tungstens! :(

[SoS]

fwiw some ongoing thoughts from a T1 owner...

I am, without doubt, resoundingly disappointed (but not too surprised) by this T5 thing. If I had a T3, it wouldnt even register on my event horizon but I dont so what now...
Well, I could buy a T3...not such a bad move..or a TH55 (if I can find one). On the other hand, why not buy a T5 (or should I say TE2)? The processor is actually much better than the clock speed would indicate, the battery is much bigger and the cpu/ram are less power hungry, so longevity will probably be pretty impressive (my ailing T gives me about 3 hours with light use now). Im tired of the limitations of 800K of dynamic heap, 144MHz cpu, 16M RAM etc..never really liked or use the slider and was happy with the m515 ff. Sure, built in wifi would be great, sure a bigger cpu would be fine and I cant wait for OS6 but have so much money invested in OS5 software (I know, its backwardly compatible supposedly...we'll see) I think I can wait a while longer for that. No voice rec.. well its also a weird omission but I only used it a handful of times so I probably wont miss it....speaker on the back....aaaarrrggghhh, someone should die for that, but I can probably live with it...No UC - big problem here, what do I do with all the other gear I have..this may be a step too far for this intermediate 'upgrade' model....but hey, it has a 'rechargeable battery'...says so on the box....wooooooooohhhhh...are they serious??? Next theyll be telling us you can turn it on and, wait for it... off as well! P1, take a sip from the clue-straw.....

Well, you know, I may buy one of these suckers....or maybe Ill wait for the next or even try an HP....
All I can say is, for someone who has been really looking forward to a hardware upgrade for a year or more, P1 have NOT made it a no-brainer. Its a compromise, however you look at it and that, for me, says it all!! :( :( :( :(

[jhintonh]

Good Evening-

Boo!! Hiss!! REALLY makes me miss Sony in this game. This is a slow-pitch-softball in the major Leagues to me.

I will stick to my TH55 until I see something significantly better that does not forsake the territory already blazed.

-Jhintonh

[mknavydoc]

This unit is a piece of junk with a cheap plastic feel. Anyone know where I can get Palm Emulator for Pocket PC. I am getting a Dell Axim x50 because it sound 50x better

[ballistic]

A couple of points....

As a former Clie NX70V owner and a current Zodiac 2 owner, if you're looking for innovation on the Palm OS platform, look no further than the Zodiac. The Zodiac 2 at $399 with dual SD slots (and a heck of a lot more) has always been a lot of PDA for the money, now the release of the T5 drives this point home. When the Wifi SDIO card for the Zodiac is released (soon) the Zodiac will offer users the flexibility of using Wifi and memory card at the same time, the T5 won't. If multimedia, gaming, content, and wireless are the next "big things" for handhelds, PDAs and smartphones (and there's a significant amount of market research tracking these trends that indicate they are), then the Zodiac has the T5 beat hands down, as well as most current PDAs.

While I understand the criticism of the lack of built-in Wifi on the T5, this constant upgrade mentality and people's stated "need" to have OS6 is quite puzzling to me. For those of you stating that you're thinking of going over to PPC because Palm isn't competing directly in terms of hardware and features with PPC, you should read The Zen of Palm (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm/ZenTOC.html) (paying particular attention to "A Balance of Features", "Nirvana - The Sweet Spot" and "Solutions - not Features") and then take an honest, hard look at what your actual handheld needs are and which platform best fits your PDA philosophy.

Brian

[kosh]

A great TE update, but not a great T3 update or TH55E alternative
T5 is clearly aimed as TJ37 or Z72 alternative, and could be a great PDA id its price would be slighty higer than TJ37 or Z72.But without WiFi or Voice Recorder or CF slot (or double SD) or ....
A great "medium-class" PDA with a incredible high-class price!

[BalBurgh]

Has anyone else commented on the lack of a camera, or am I wrong about that? One MORE reason to take a pass.

[winexprt]

Has anyone else commented on the lack of a camera, or am I wrong about that? One MORE reason to take a pass.

Why. None of the other Tungstens had a camera. Why would they start with this one?

BTW, the new Treo 650 supposedly has a halfway decent camera.

[NJL!2016]

Has anyone else commented on the lack of a camera, or am I wrong about that? One MORE reason to take a pass.

The Tungsten line was designed for buisness users, and in some companies cameras are not allowed

[pruss]

The Tungsten line was designed for buisness users, and in some companies cameras are not allowed

On the other hand, cameras can be useful, e.g., for making a quick copy of an announcement one wants to make note of.

[IsLNdbOi]

Unless they release something with OS6 that matches the T5 and adds wifi. PalmInfocenter and Brighthand have threads with lots of people who don't like this unit:

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?threadid=110965

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7193

[cktlcmd]

As all of you here, I too am disappointed by the Tungsten T5. They should change the name to Tungsten E2, as most of its specs came from it anyway. They should just have upgraded their Tungsten C line instead. That might have come out better too.

[NJL!2016]

I think that the best and most innovative thing from palmOne is the Zire series and the Treo 600. The Zire series finally made PDAs appealing to average consumers, and the Treo 600 is the epitomy of smartphones

[Joel]

t..., you should read The Zen of Palm (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm/ZenTOC.html) (paying particular attention to "A Balance of Features", "Nirvana - The Sweet Spot" and "Solutions - not Features") and then take an honest, hard look at what your actual handheld needs are and which platform best fits your PDA philosophy.

Brian

Good points, Brian. I'm now actually thinking that the T5 is the new Pilot. Remember how simple yet effective and useful the Pilot was? I've realized the T5 is like that.

The T5 reminds me of AppShelf. I wrote earlier: AppShelf is enough for me already, even before this update. I believe I'm using all of its features and it fits my needs. I'd rather have a simple, full-featured launcher rather than a bloated launcher with features I won't use.

What if I change it to this:
The T5 is enough for me already. I believe I'm using all of its features and it fits my needs. I'd rather have a simple, full-featured PDA rather than a bloated one with features I won't use.

PalmOne seems to be moving back to the basics and I'm ready to try and see what the T5 has to offer.

:D:D:D

[ballistic]

Good points, Brian. I'm now actually thinking that the T5 is the new Pilot. Remember how simple yet effective and useful the Pilot was? I've realized the T5 is like that.

The T5 reminds me of AppShelf. I wrote earlier: AppShelf is enough for me already, even before this update. I believe I'm using all of its features and it fits my needs. I'd rather have a simple, full-featured launcher rather than a bloated launcher with features I won't use.

What if I change it to this:
The T5 is enough for me already. I believe I'm using all of its features and it fits my needs. I'd rather have a simple, full-featured PDA rather than a bloated one with features I won't use.

PalmOne seems to be moving back to the basics and I'm ready to try and see what the T5 has to offer.

:D:D:D

Thanks Joel, and yes I do remember the orginal Pilot (my first PDA). I'm glad to see someone who's in touch with their inner-PDA self :).

IMO the T5, while lacking Wifi, is true to the whole "Zen of Palm" philosophy that makes Palm OS what it is. By the sounds of it, Cobalt will also be Zen-like in its elegance and simplicity, while stretching the sweet spot (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm/Enlightenment.html#971683). Sometimes less can be more.

Brian

[winexprt]

I think that the best and most innovative thing from palmOne is the Zire series and the Treo 600. The Zire series finally made PDAs appealing to average consumers, and the Treo 600 is the epitomy of smartphones

You really can't find a better, more well designed smartphone than the Treo 650.

Bravo to palmOne for that.

[Gekko]

Thanks Joel, and yes I do remember the orginal Pilot (my first PDA). I'm glad to see someone who's in touch with their inner-PDA self :).

IMO the T5, while lacking Wifi, is true to the whole "Zen of Palm" philosophy that makes Palm OS what it is. Sometimes less can be more.
Brian

No problem with "less is more" but DON'T CHARGE ME MORE FOR LESS!!!

[Gekko]

You really can't find a better, more well designed smartphone than the Treo 650.

Bravo to palmOne for that.

Unlike many here I owned a Treo 600 - for a whole week. It was so bad I had to send it back. It was a marginal PDA and a VERY POOR phone. It looks good on paper, but it's not all it's cracked up to be - at least not yet. My guess with the 650 is the are going to pull a T5 on us. Drop in a new screen, tweak the OS and battery, and add some memory. Not good enough - and the competition will be coming fast and fierce over the next 6-12 months.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3000_7-5134514.html

[archangel]

This is the best Palm can do with their new handheld? With Sony gone from the US market I guess PDA innovation is dead. Looks like Palm is going to focus on the smartphones and leave the PDA market behind.

No voice recording and no Wi-Fi and the horrible TE design, but with the same high price of the T3. The flash drive is interesting, but nothing new. Guess my NX80 will have to last until 2005. I'm actually starting to consider a Pocket PC. There is really no alternative left.

Simple might have been better in the past, but they have the TE for that, the high end units have to stay up with the Pocket PC for those of us that are power users. This new release is not going to win over many consumers when compared side by side with the new PPCs.

[gfunkmagic]

So did I. The browser on this T5 is indeed Blazer. :( No NetFront...at least not yet. Hopefully we'll see a NF based browser in palmOne's first Cobalt based PDA. If they're still in the PDA business by then, after this disaster of a release. Palm has dissapointed us in pretty much every aspect of this new Tungsten...why would thier choice of browser be any different?




Just a quick correction here. Blazer ver 3.0 which is also found on the Treo600 is based on the Netfront Core!!! Thus Blazer that PalmOne is including on the T5 and Treo 650/Ace is basically Netfront!! If you don't beleive me, take any Treo 600 and open and look at the ram via FileZ and you'll see that one of the largest files in Rom is the "NetfrontLib". It makes sense that PalmOne is trying to standardize all its bundled apps post HS merger with Blazer 3 (Netfront), Versmail etc...

I also agree that the T5 specs suck (no wifi, Cobalt, voice recorder and crappy TE plastic casing), but the Blazer Browser is acutally not that bad! ;)

[stronggeek]

I'm almost as dissapointed as the day Sony dropped out of the handheld show.

The T5 doesn't move me at all.

And I was afraid this would happen which is why I've limited my purchase of software for the palm os lately.

A few nice features, but not enough for me.

Even my investment in palm apps won't keep me in the palm camp for long.

Though my current palm still does the trick, I'll be keeping an eye out for the new machines in the other camp now.

I like HP's 4705 and may get it as a backup soon, but I'm tempted to wait a little longer and see what elses comes out.

It took me a while to post this as I really wanted to like it and so thought about this all day, but I must echoe the sentiments of others and ask the question: "What were they thinkin?"

And to you guys that like it, want it, need it, than cool, I'm glad somebody's happy with it.

[gfunkmagic]

Some comments:
- If you don't like the T5, then you are actually not have been included in palmOne's T5 target market. I agree with Lance. You don't have to upgrade now.

Well, then who are they targeting then with the ridiculous $400 price tag? I mean, only the uber high end geek crowd buys pdas that expensive. If you're willing to buy a $400 pda and you use PalmOS, you either have or are in the market for existing devices like the T3, UX series and highed PPC's like the new Dell X50's, hx3000, and etc. Who in their right mind would choose the crappy T5 when in comparison to these other devices? B/c it has a 160 file store? :rolleyes: I'ld rather just buy a $20 usb drive thanks...

- As for OS6, why do you need it now? Aside from the better looking interface, you can only run the old 0S5.x apps. You have to wait for it a while as developers convert their apps to fully use the OS6 functionality. Just look at the new Treo 650. When it comes out, it will definitely sell, yes, even if it's only running Garnet.


MULTITASKING, MULTITASKING, MULTITASKING. Yeah, I know it's more like "multi-threading", but it's better than nothing. For example, I hate that I can't download my email and browse the web at the same time on my Treo (save for few apps like chatter).

Also, the reason no one is complaining about no Cobalt on the Treo is b/c no one was expecting it! Everyone knows it takes long as hell to get anything approved by the wireless carrieres certifiation processes, so users have given P1 a bit of slack. No such excuses exist for the crappy T5! :mad:

- If you really need WiFi now, just get the the WiFi SD card.


So pay $400 bucks for the crappy T5 and another ~$130 bucks for the SD wifi card?! :eek: That is an obcene amount of money to spend on a feature that should already be integrated into the T5. Why should I pay that when I can get an older device like the TJ37 w/wifi integrated for like $250 or brand new PPCs like the X30 for $250 bucks!! The fact that P1 has absolutley no products in this price range with wifi support is pathetic...

- As with Mac users who are solid to Apple, a lot of us are solid to the PalmOS. Let's be patient and give palmOne time. The OS6 devices will come.

Well, if you're to beleive the press reports, the one of the main reasons why PalmOne said they used Garnet in the T5 is so that it would be mac-compatible!! IF you wait to P1 to release a Cobalt device, then it probably won't be mac-compatible! :mad: Anyway, hopefully P1 will bundle Missing Sync with every future Cobalt device...if they ever show up...

Anyway Reggie, sorry if my above rant came across a bit to asceribic. This is a great site and I wanted to vent a bit. Hope you can excuse my angry solioquoy...

[gfunkmagic]

Wonder if the treo 650 will use the wi-fi card?

Probably not. There are tow going rumors regarding this.

1) That the SDIO port on the 650 will still be to weak to power the card

2) That the SDIO port on the 650 will be able to power the card, but only when the wireless is turned off

However, PalmOne would still have to release the drivers to make it work if the latter it true, and that it unlikey imo...

[adamsmark]

No problem with "less is more" but DON'T CHARGE ME MORE FOR LESS!!!

Exactly.

Also, we've come to a point in PDA's where adding tons of features doesn't really degrade the performance of your handheld. I might not use a voice recorder often, but I expect it. Just once, I'd like to see Palm build a unit that does it all. You expect it for $400.

P.S. You know, I'm thinking that I wouldn't mind buying a new PDA every two years, if they were priced about $300. I don't know why, but $400 pushes the envelope a bit. You'll have to give me something really awesome for that kind of money.

P.S.S. Though a Palm user since 1999 (seems a long time ago by PDA standards), I'm really thinking of switching to Dell or HP.

[mikegehl]

You know what's almost funny? Up until a few days ago, the T3 was listed at $399. Didn't you all find that way overpriced, too? Where was all your complaining??? Saving it all for the T5, I guess!

[gfunkmagic]

A couple of points....

As a former Clie NX70V owner and a current Zodiac 2 owner, if you're looking for innovation on the Palm OS platform, look no further than the Zodiac


Ah yes the Zodiac... The question now is, can Tapwave deliver us all from the hell that is the T5 crappiness? Can little Tapwave save us? Can the SAVE US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At this point, I have lost all faith in the idiots that design pdas over at PalmOne. Hopefully the pda engineers will stay away from the Treo engineers and not screw up that line as well! In the mean time, Tapwave may be the only salvation for PalmOS users looking earnestly towards the darkside. In comparison to the T5, the Z2 is much more superior imo. Also, one C-guys finally releases their SD wifi card, there will be even more reasons to go for a zod...

[Joel]

You know what's almost funny? Up until a few days ago, the T3 was listed at $399. Didn't you all find that way overpriced, too? Where was all your complaining??? Saving it all for the T5, I guess!

Mike, brings back memories of the good ol' days when the same ranting (price sucks, features suck, everything sucks) happens everytime there's a new Clie, huh? :D

[winexprt]

Unlike many here I owned a Treo 600 - for a whole week. It was so bad I had to send it back. It was a marginal PDA and a VERY POOR phone. It looks good on paper, but it's not all it's cracked up to be - at least not yet. My guess with the 650 is the are going to pull a T5 on us. Drop in a new screen, tweak the OS and battery, and add some memory. Not good enough - and the competition will be coming fast and fierce over the next 6-12 months.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3000_7-5134514.html

Fair enough. Even Mercedes-Benz dealers sometimes get returns. :p ;)

But I noticed you didn't mention one you did like. ;)

So what smartphone currently available do you think is better then?

[winexprt]

Just a quick correction here. Blazer ver 3.0 which is also found on the Treo600 is based on the Netfront Core!!! Thus Blazer that PalmOne is including on the T5 and Treo 650/Ace is basically Netfront!! If you don't beleive me, take any Treo 600 and open and look at the ram via FileZ and you'll see that one of the largest files in Rom is the "NetfrontLib". It makes sense that PalmOne is trying to standardize all its bundled apps post HS merger with Blazer 3 (Netfront), Versmail etc...

I also agree that the T5 specs suck (no wifi, Cobalt, voice recorder and crappy TE plastic casing), but the Blazer Browser is acutally not that bad! ;)

All I know is I have had the most recent incarnation of Blazer (obviously not from the T5...i think it may have been from the 600) on my TH55 to do testing and if this same browser that's on the T5 all I can say is I feel for whomever has to rely on that as thier primary browser. It sucks. The version of NetFront Sony bestowed on me & my TH55 did laps around Blazer. Not even a contest. I dunno what Palm did to it...but it SURE ain't the same NetFront that's on my Clie. :)

[gfunkmagic]

All I know is I have had the most recent incarnation of Blazer (obviously not from the T5...i think it may have been from the 600) on my TH55 to do testing and if this same browser that's on the T5 all I can say is I feel for whomever has to rely on that as thier primary browser. It sucks. The version of NetFront Sony bestowed on me & my TH55 did laps around Blazer. Not even a contest. I dunno what Palm did to it...but it SURE ain't the same NetFront that's on my Clie. :)

Well, the version of Blazer on the T5 is 4.0. Ver 3.0 on the Treo600 was a bit lacking, but it definitely was based on Access's Netfront Core:

Blazer 3.0 based on NetFront (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/248-1.htm)

ACCESS' NetFront Browser Powers Newly Released Handspring Treo 600 (http://www.access-us-inc.com/news_releases/10212003.html)

Furthermore, it was previously annouced that PalmSource's Web Browser for Cobalt 6.1 would be based on Netfront as well:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/PalmSource_Web_Browser_3_0_Announced

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7165

I haven't seen any direct link stating Blazer 4.0 is also based on Netfront, but I doubt that it is otherwise...

[winexprt]

All that is great. But again, the performance of the 'Blazer' labeled browser, and my NetFront v3.1 are VERY different...and not tilted in Blazers favor. That's my point.

"Based on" NetFront, and actually NetFront are two VERY different things...as evidenced by the side by side performance tests I did on both my old UX50 and my current TH55.

[seascape]

I like the T5 specs. The T5 is close to the handheld I would have built for myself. I've had a Palm since the Pilot 5000, and I use a handheld daily at work and elsewhere. I preordered a T5, although I choked at the price, especially given my nearly annual investment in new Palms, and the threat of having to purchase new peripherals. I hope it does not have "surprises", like the SD card and digitizer problem. Normally I prefer to buy after a device has been on the market for a while, but I need to replace my T2.

Pilot 5000/PalmPilot Pro/Palm 3x/TRGPro/HandEra 330/Clie NR70V/T2

[pavneet]

This was mentioned earlier in this thread. Most of the people here are touted as being extreme power users. So why isn't there more consideration being played to the Sharp Zaurus. After all isn't that a valid alternative to going with PPC?

I, for one, will have to start looking at that as an option. Anyone know of forums/resources to help in that regard?

I am very sad to say that I too am being forced into a position where I feel that I have to anticipate which platform my data will end up on. For most of us, more than the platform it is the sanctity of our data and our ability to interact with it in an easy, ergonomic way that defines our experience with our PDA. This is why there is hesitation expressed about PPC: the possible loss of data, and the cumbersome way that one has to interact with it.

With warm regards.

[ptmin]

As all of you here, I too am disappointed by the Tungsten T5. They should change the name to Tungsten E2, as most of its specs came from it anyway. They should just have upgraded their Tungsten C line instead. That might have come out better too.

I agree
P1 Could have taken (and still can) the TC strip off the keyboard, arrange the lower parts a little nicer as T3 without the slider dont care about it i like it anyway, Wifi inside already, Faster processors are AVAILABLE , Cobalt or O6 almost finishedby PS,
naming it something else if not T6
P1 HAS ALLREADY ALL THAT IS NEEDED TO BIULD A REAL HIGH END DEVICE FOR SPRING 2005
all that is need is a qualified engineer to do something better than TE2/T5
I think the name T5 has been seriously been mis-used.

[Adrenochrome]

Save us Tapwave! Just take your Zod1, strip off the gaming features and pop Wifi into a more clean-lined machine, and you'll have a hit. The market is wide open for you!

[Adrenochrome]

I agree
P1 Could take the TC strip off the keyboard, arrange the lower parts a little nicer as T3 without the slider dont care about it , Wifi inside already, Faster processor AVAILABLE , Cobalt or O6 almost finished,
naming it something else if not T6
P1 HAS ALLREADY ALL THAT IS NEED TO BIULD A REAL HIGH END DEVICE FOR SPRING 2005
all that is need is a qualified engineer to do something better the TE2/T5
the name T5 has been seriously been mis-used.
Or even design a TC with a slider and keep the keyboard. There's enough room for a full keyboard and a Hires+ screen with a slider - and that would be a real reason to have a slider. Whatever, just somebody make the PDA we've all been yelling for for six months!

[Sid]

I've set up a new T5 poll at the main page. Please vote if you have time.

Where is the poll?
Thanks.

Edit:
I found it. :o

[PixelPusher]

Or even design a TC with a slider and keep the keyboard. There's enough room for a full keyboard and a Hires+ screen with a slider - and that would be a real reason to have a slider. Whatever, just somebody make the PDA we've all been yelling for for six months!

I love the way the Zaurus handles the keyboard. It slides under the screen rather than over it.

-Eric

[adamsmark]

You know what's almost funny? Up until a few days ago, the T3 was listed at $399. Didn't you all find that way overpriced, too? Where was all your complaining??? Saving it all for the T5, I guess!

The T3 was, and still is, overpriced. I'd say that unit is worth about $300, not $350. For 400 bucks I expect a Cadillac, not a Camry.

[Barabass]

Hello,

I'm just wondering - they say on web-site that
1) it can be preordered (for shipping on 3rd of Nov ?)
2) 7-14 days for shipping
3) IN STOCK (2-3 days)

HOW SOON CAN I HAVE IT ?
Did any of you guys received any confirmation from (pre)-oredering regarding status of this T5 (aka TE2 aka T3E :))

[Gekko]

Fair enough. Even Mercedes-Benz dealers sometimes get returns. :p ;)

But I noticed you didn't mention one you did like. ;)

So what smartphone currently available do you think is better then?

Mercedes quality is a big myth. Mercedes are JUNK. I only buy LEXUS. The facts don't lie:

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860&CatID=1

The Treo 600 is the only one I owned or really played with. I thought Samsung had a good Smartphone concept but not sure what ever happened to it.

[Wollombi]

I wonder how different the forums would be right now if p1 had announced the t5 and a wi-fi enabled t5+? This machine is not terrrible and not everyone wants wi-fi as has been pointed out (although I think the majority do). I am purplexed by the obsession with os6, not with the obsession with wi-fi. I don't mind them using an os which is proven and stable, particularly given the PIM enhancements.

I would like to ask all those people with t3's why they don't want to upgrade? The t3 battery is terrible. I just can't see why I would want to swap my th55 for this.

I actually WANT to upgrade, but NOT to this so-called T5 (really an E2, worth $250.00 tops). I'm tired of the slider on the T3. I don't hate it by any means, I just don't like the way it feels in my hand fully extended, and I don't like sliding it out any time I want to see the full screen. A slider just doesn't make sense on a 320x480 screen.

As far as battery life, I charge my T3 most every night anyway. I also find I don't need all 400MHz most of the time, so I run it at 233-ish, and my battery lasts much longer, and the screen hum is gone/greatly diminished. This meets my needs, and I do use the voice recorder from time to time. A couple of the biggest problems for me though are the anemic T|E speaker and a lack of vibrating alarms. I generally carry my PDA in my pants pocket, where the vibrating alarm notifies me that an appointment is due, or in my coat pocket, where a loud speaker is necessary for me to hear it from across the room.

Boy, do I ever miss Handera these days. :(

[hussain]

I wonder if I'd be able to use other wifi cards other than the P1's Wifi.

[Gekko]

>"I actually WANT to upgrade"

Me too. I couldn't wait to shiit-can my T3 and get rid of that damned slider and finally get built-in WIFI. I would have paid $500+ for an aluminum, WIFI, OS6/Cobalt PDA!

[Yorker]

>"I actually WANT to upgrade"

Me too. I couldn't wait to shiit-can my T3 and get rid of that damned slider and finally get built-in WIFI. I would have paid $500+ for an aluminum, WIFI, OS6/Cobalt PDA!

Sigh, me too. I'd even put money aside in anticipation. I do like my th55 but sony's lack of support and the lack of affordable/decent accessories is a problem. Looks like its a problem I'll be keeping for a while.

[winexprt]

This thing looks exaclty like a TE, but longer for one reason: the TE sold phenomenally well. Shoot, I even talked my aunt into buying one for my uncle (big executive) last xmas to replace his dying Vx.

So...if a lot of you guys all run out and buy this T5 in droves, you can betcha bottom dollar if this dud is sucessful...the T6 will look EXACTLY like this one. Something to think about. :D

[Spiral]

This thing looks exaclty like a TE, but longer for one reason: the TE sold phenomenally well.
but the T|E cost 200 dollars or less. This is going to cost double the price. The Zire sold extremely well too. But PalmOne would be nuts to try to release a high-end handheld in that form factor.

[winexprt]

...But PalmOne would be nuts to try to release a high-end handheld in that form factor.

Hey! Stranger things have happened! (like palmOne releasing a supposedly top o' the line PDA geared toward business people without built-in WiFi or voice recorder) :p ;)

[Enceladus]

The T5 looks like the non-slider hires+ form factor that would of sold me on the T3 when it first came out. For me the TH beat them to it in a much better form with nicer features. For the money, I'd never with the plastic body or a silver paint finish that would scratch easier.

[Gekko]

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but some may not know this. There's lots of info on the T5 available on the FCC site - including the User Manual:

enter 'O3W' for the grantee code, then choose the 10-4-04 submission.

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

[hamsammich]

Interesting.

[Wollombi]

So...if a lot of you guys all run out and buy this T5 in droves, you can betcha bottom dollar if this dud is sucessful...the T6 will look EXACTLY like this one.

Don't get me wrong, I *like* the E form factor, with the exception being that it needs the speaker in front. The form factor is not the issue for me. The things I take issue with are:

- Lack of voice recorder
- Lack of WiFi
- Insanely high price for the feature set
- Plastic instead of metal casing

While plastic in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, it does need to be high quality and durable, without being prone to scratchs and fingerprints a la the T|E. Shoot, the lack of a second card slot and UC don't concern me too much, even thought I would lose the PowerToGo and Ultra Thin Keyboard in the deal. I just assume that there would either be a replacement, or an adapter to allow me to use them (3rd party of course, since p1 would never allow you to upgrade without having to buy all new peripherals, conveniently available through their store).

Because of the aforementioned issues, I'm disheartened and disillusioned by pa1mOne.

[winexprt]

While plastic in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, it does need to be high quality and durable, without being prone to scratchs and fingerprints a la the T|E.

EXACTLY like the EXCELLENT casing on my TH55. Which is both scratch & fingerprint resistant. :) :D

[DeanDC10]

If you look at the pictures from the above link, or go directly to it here:

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=475651&native_or_pdf=pdf

You can see how scratched up the T5 can get. Not cool....

[Jukov]

note the furious Tungsten|X mark on the back ;)

[DeanDC10]

note the furious Tungsten|X mark on the back ;)

That's covering the "E"

Too funny......

[RobertS]

There is one element of the ongoing debate about the T5 that I really cannot figure out, and that is the charge that the device is over-priced. Look at it this way.

As compared to the T3, the T5 has
1) a slightly faster processor
2) three times the on-board memory
3) larger battery
4) a new way of storing and sorting files
5) The same wireless capabilities and screen
5) THE SAME PRICE.

The only significant T3 element that is missing from the T5 is a voice recorder (I am not counting the slider). Seems to me that that is more than fair.

However, it seems that many of us are not happy with that, and have been calling for it to be priced at $250.

Let's compare it then to the E, retailing at $200. The T5 has
1) A three times faster processor
2) 10 times the internal memory (!)
3) A hires+ screen
4) Bluetooth
5) more included software (not a disc full of demos as you get from HP with a new iPaq).

So that should be just a $50 dollar increase? Absurd.

I think that people are comparing this device to what they dreamed it would be and are therefore judging it a failure. There are certainly disappointments for power users when compared to the fantasies that were dreamed up (damn TungstenInfo and the horse he rode in on) but not nearly of a depth and severity that some enthusiasts are discussing…and certainly not in the realm of price. The non-PDA press has actually received the device quite well, better than they did the recent iPaqs, and are predicting it will be a hot seller for Christmas.

BTW – To compare directly the only new iPaq that signifigantly undersells the T5 is the woeful rx1710 (slower processor, far less memory, no wireless at all). The 3700 is the only model at a comparative price ($350) and has WiFi, but has less memory and a slower processor. All the other models are more expensive, including the 4700 which is more that $250 more expensive. As for Dells, the X30 is cheaper true but they are not and won’t be for a long time, if ever, a market force in PDAs and the devices have good specs but not much else (they look like garage door openers on steroids, for one thing). The X50 is still just rumors…much as the T5 was a month ago. Hopefully if it fails to live up to the fantasies being spun about it now, PDA buffs will scream just as loudly.

[depret]

Excellent analysis and a very reasonable arguement. Thanks!

[Gekko]

RobertS - You present nothing but weak straw man fallacies. You can pooh-pooh our criticisms all you want, but at the end of the day, the market will kill this pig because it in no way measures up to the competition. Wake up.

[Wollombi]

RobertS, you make some good points about what is included with the T5 that I hadn't thought of yet. Bearing that in mind, I have to concede that maybe $250.00 is a little low.

Having said that, however, I still don't find $400.00 to be a reasonable price for this unit. Stripping the voice recorder (a major feature for some), and the charging LED, possibly removing vibrating alarms, using the E's anemic speaker and placing it on the back of the unit, and casing it in plastic all serve to cripple and/or reduce the value of this device. In light of what is missing from the T3 to the T5, the T5's added or new features don't add up to the same value as the T3. I still would not pay more than $300.00 for this. For what it costs p1 for the processor (likely same price as the T3 proc), flash memory (which is cheap these days), and software (which was ALSO included with the T3), it doesn't add up to a $400 price tag.

I can appreciate the T5 for what it is and even like, but the truth is it is still only a T|E upgrade, not a true T-series, and doesn't warrant a T-series price tag.

At $300.00 and including at the very least vibrating alarms I would have considered this as I really would like to do away with the slider. Problem is I NEED both loud and vibrating alarms, and I do use the voice recorder (though I likely could adjust to not having it).

You can pooh-pooh our criticisms all you want, but at the end of the day, the market will kill this pig because it in no way measures up to the competition.
True, it doesn't measure up to the competition, but I'm not sure p1 sees the PPC world as competition. If this is the case it will hurt them in the long run, sadly. As far as the market killing this device, it may, or it may not. The old Beta vs. VHS argument can be made here. Beta was in every way superior, but VHS was still chosen by the masses.

People who aren't PDA freaks (like us) will only see a machine that can do more than previous Palms (flash drive) and reason that the model number is higher than the last T-series, so the price tag won't give them as much pause as those who understand what is there and what is lacking. Besides that T3 is now $50.00 less than the T5.

To be honest, the major gripe I have with the T5 itself is it's price tag. If it were a less expensive device, I wouldn't hate it so much. True, I wanted WiFi in the next Tungsten, but I can wait until Spring (no matter how disappointing that may be). If this were a reasonably priced PDA, I'd have few problems recommending it based on what is currently known. It doesn't appear to meet my needs, though, and I can't see paying $400.00 for it. My needs may change (or the specs may actually end up meeting them - we'll see with tomorrow's reviews), but my sense of value likely won't.

[Gekko]

Price is merely what the buyer is willing to pay and the seller willing to accept.

[IsLNdbOi]

If they made the T5 look like the Z72 (also with 320 x 480 res.), but without the flashy blue peeling paint it would have been a very nice PDA.

[PixelPusher]

Did anyone notice that the T5 tested by the FCC had a metal case not plastic? At least it looked like metal to me.

-Eric

[Gekko]

SKT174 made a great post at another site:

'Upgrades', T3 to T5:
Insignificant processor increase
Insignificant memory increase (arguable)
Improved battery life
Cosmetic GUI changes
Non-slider design (positive for some)

Downgrades, T3 to T5:
Loss of ALL UC accessories
Loss of high-quality stylus
Loss of voice recorder
Loss of LED charge indicator light
Loss of front-mounted speaker
Loss of quality case material
Loss of organic button layout, rounded d-pad
Loss of slider (increase in pocketed size, elimination of quick power-on method)
Loss of voice recorder hard-button (commonly programmed to launch "applications" a.k.a. the launcher, similar to Sony back button functionality)
Loss of Included Cradle

[DeanDC10]

Did anyone notice that the T5 tested by the FCC had a metal case not plastic? At least it looked like metal to me.

-Eric

That's plastic, you can see how it scratches and wears on all the corners. It looks like the paint is coming off.

[jppeltier]

Well, at least, palmOne didn't bother (yet) to update their Comparison Table ...

http://store.palmone.com/gridFamily/index.jsp

JPP.

[PatrickS]

Robert, you didn't take into account that a cradle is not included with the T5 ($30 retail). In addition, the cost of technology continually declines. The T3 is a year old. The price of screens, memory, etc. have all gone down significantly since the T3 was designed and produced. So, if you take this into account, you're getting really close to the $299 figure that many people are suggesting.

However, these arguments talk about the cost of a feature to Palm, not price. As Gekko correctly points out, price is merely what the buyer is willing to pay and the seller willing to accept. The T5 will not be worth $399 if people don't choose to buy it at that price, no matter what justification you can come up with.

[bryus]

Well put RobertS!!!

[RobertS]

Assorted responses:

Wollombi - I agree that in many ways the T5 would have been better received as the E2. It is certainly being primed by Palm (and seen as such in early reviews) as the natural choice when the vast legion of happy entry-level E users (who are there despite the constand grousing about the E in these forums...it is the best selling Palm ever, after all) decide to upgrade.

However, I disagree with you about it standing up to the competition. It is becoming clear that PPC and Palm devices are headed in totally different directions. As some have said in this forum, PalmOne is returning to the so called "Zen of Palm" - simplicity, application-focused, designed as a platform for third party developers and productivity enhancements. PPC, on the other hand, is moving more in the direction that their name would suggest - a true Pocket PC. With PPC, the Operating System is the thing and add on applications are mainly that, add ons. The hx4700 (in my opinion the only one of the new iPaqs which is successful) is basically a miniature laptop/internet device running Windows Mobile rather than Xp or WinCE and will I think it eventually drive the new (and truly insanely priced) OQOs and Flipstarts off the market.

Palm devices and PPC devices have reached a point whre they are really not in direct market competition any longer, something that Microsoft has acknowledged by finally bringing Palm into their Email strategy. It is about time we realized it too.

PixelPusher and DeanDC10 - A good point about the casing but one of the reviews posted on the main site (I think from Bargain PDA) noted that the case is of much higher quality than the E....a very good sign.

Patrick - You're right I forgot about the cradle. THAT is an oversite but is the way maore and more PDAs are going. The lack of one lowers the value.

As for the market deciding...yes it will, and I think from past expeience the market will be willing to pay 400 for the T5, even if those who are more "knowledgable" are not. Especially since they won't be able to find many cheaper alternatives on the high street.

Gekko - As usual, I can't see anything in your posts worthy of responding directly to.

RobertS

[Wollombi]

The directions that PPC and Palm are going in may be diverging a bit, but are not completely different. p1 regional director Stuart Maughan even acknowledged the vision of the Palm as a "laptop replacement" in a recent interview. The needs of both PPC and Palm users will always be similar if not the same: Mobile contacts, calendar, notes, email, voice memos, and the ability to work on documents (Word, Excel, etc.) while away from the desktop (among other things not as necessary). This is precisely what many use laptops for today, and many have ditched the notebook in favor of the PDA. WiFi is becoming increasingly more important, especially to business travellers who often stay in hotels that offer WiFi connectivity. This is why T5 is such a disappointment, IMO.

Palm does need to keep up on the hardware end. HP and Dell definitely view p1 et all as competitors. I don't want PalmOS to become PPC by any means, but the functionality/ability needs to be there. I generally think Palm's implementations are much more usable and useful, but the hardware needs to keep up with both the market demands and the OS. As an example, imagine (you'll have to) Cobalt 6.1 on the TH-55/E vs. the T5. One has hardware that would fully exploit the usefulness and advantagtes of the OS, while the other would only serve to cripple the OS if 6.1 were installed on it. It's an admittedly simplified example, but gets my point across nicely. Which would you buy?

PPC, while a "mini-PC", will always be thethered to the desktop in MS's strategy, because if they gave you a fully functional Word or Excel on the PPC, they couldn't sell Office anymore, which makes them much more money. As far as MS implementing Palm in their email strategy, well, they implemented Java in their web strategy as well, but we all remember the true motivations and the ultimate results. I'm not sold on a Palm/MS marriage just yet, even in this limited iteration. I admit the functionality is useful, which is probably why Palm et all even agreed to it in the first place.

[palmato]

Yesterday in the interview to Ed Colligan on PalmAddict, there was a statement which I believe has been quite overlooked. Here I quote:

EC: The Treo Family will have Exchange functionality by the end of the year.

So Palm1 licenses Exchange technology from MS, likely not for peanuts, and where does it end? Not on the Tungsten. Maybe it will be compatible, maybe you'll have no problem putting it on a Tungsten, whatever. But I find it interesting that a major feature intended for businesses only, lands directly on the Treo.
IMHO this is the WAN business strategy of Palm1: use the smartphone (convergent device) to provide businesses the functions they need first. Then maybe, perhaps, whoknowswhen, trickle down the technology to pure PDA's that are wifi enabled.
BTW it's not so silly as it seems. After all wifi is by far not as ubiquitous as GSM (CDMA, EDGE, whatever). Just try to check your email while in a cab: wifi won't bring you far.

I also think that Palm1 is indeed competing with PPC manufacturers but simply cannot outspend them. The return to the zen of Palm simply means that resources will be invested on Treo development and PDA's will not be as innovative and daring as the Tungsten T's, I mean the real Tungsten T's, were.

[Cliefanatic]

This whole PPC seeing Palm as a competitor and Palm not seeing PPC as a competitor reminds me of the Kmart/Wal-mart battle. Wal-mart saw K-mart as a competitor and K-mart didn't see Wal-mart as a competitor or at least ignored them until it was too late. Look for K-mart to go under all together. Hopefully, Palm does not follow.

[Gekko]

Serious Tungsten T5 Glitch

http://www.pocketfactory.com/archives/2004/10/serious_tungste.php

[Jukov]

Sorry for repost...
After reading an interview with P1's president I realized. T5 is not just a 'strange' device, underequipped and overpriced. It is a symptom of a much bigger problem. It's a symptom of a bad marketing decisions, poor market leadership, and a very developed shortsightedness. Doesn' t he really understand why TC has a moderate sales, why TE has sold so well?... I have two explaination to this:
- P1 is on its way out of the market. They don't have the resourses to compete w/ other pda manufacturers. They wanted to enter the smartphone market, but it's already occupied by the Symbian. Their attempt to conquer this market has failed. That is why there is no licensee for Cobalt, that is why Sony has pulled out / as they don't see a competible OS from PS/, why we get this TE+T3 mule, and statements like the ones in the interview
- P1 has lost a touch w/ the customer. It seems we need everything to be instant these days. We need instant communication, instant information, instant leisure, work, culture, sex. Ever since the times when Motorola had revolutionazed the telecommunication w/ the cellphone, we need everything to be at the reach of our hand. The customers wants it all, never satisfied, never looks back,does not have sentiments and doesn't forgive for mistakes . He likes it fast, extremely hi-tech and cheap. Seems like the days of the Palm's philosophy has long gone. The game now is not 'simplify' , but 'featurize and simplify'. We see it at every corner: Nokia, Dell, HP; what the heck: packman vs. Doom 3,you name it.
I'm guessing we'll see a pocket computer that does it all, just like we see a 'telegraph' in every pocket, but I think P1 will not.

[Sleuth255]

Yesterday in the interview to Ed Colligan on PalmAddict, there was a statement which I believe has been quite overlooked. Here I quote:

EC: The Treo Family will have Exchange functionality by the end of the year.

So Palm1 licenses Exchange technology from MS, likely not for peanuts, and where does it end? Not on the Tungsten. Maybe it will be compatible, maybe you'll have no problem putting it on a Tungsten, whatever. But I find it interesting that a major feature intended for businesses only, lands directly on the Treo.
IMHO this is the WAN business strategy of Palm1: use the smartphone (convergent device) to provide businesses the functions they need first. Then maybe, perhaps, whoknowswhen, trickle down the technology to pure PDA's that are wifi enabled.
BTW it's not so silly as it seems. After all wifi is by far not as ubiquitous as GSM (CDMA, EDGE, whatever). Just try to check your email while in a cab: wifi won't bring you far.

I also think that Palm1 is indeed competing with PPC manufacturers but simply cannot outspend them. The return to the zen of Palm simply means that resources will be invested on Treo development and PDA's will not be as innovative and daring as the Tungsten T's, I mean the real Tungsten T's, were.


Bingo. The truth of this. Sigh.

[PatrickS]

The number of times I'm saying "ouch" in connection with the T5 just keeps growing:




No voice recorder
No charging LED
No vibrating alarm
No trickle charge from the sync cable
No compatibility with my UC accessories
No included cradle
No WiFi
No Cobalt
No replaceable battery
No compatibility with Graffiti 1
Need to carry the custom T5 cable with you to take advantage of Drive Mode (not a generic USB cable like for T|E and Z72)
Internal "SD-Card" memory, not just regular Palm memory, is wiped out by a hard reset!!
Calendar app apparently has a major bug: http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24509
The flip cover still scratches the paint, just like it did for the T|E
$400

[MrNako]

The number of times I'm saying "ouch" in connection with the T5 just keeps growing:



Internal "SD-Card" memory, not just regular Palm memory, is wiped out by a hard reset!!


So this means that if I have a backup of the regular memory it will be erased by a hard reset!!?? :eek:

[PatrickS]

So this means that if I have a backup of the regular memory it will be erased by a hard reset!!?? :eek:If you have a true, external SD card installed, the files on it are safe (at least I hope they are), but all of the user accessible memory that comes with the device, all 215 MB of it, is gone, I'm told.

[MrNako]

If you have a true, external SD card installed, the files on it are safe (at least I hope they are), but all of the user accessible memory that comes with the device, all 215 MB of it, is gone, I'm told.

That's what I meant.... that sucks.

[Justinn]

this was not designed for T3 owners. It was designed for those who had Visors Deluxes and m505s and now want to upgrade. For them, this will be a good upgrade and they will get similar functionality.
That is the point, I think: the T5 has little to offer T3 owners (or TE owners), but anyone who has not yet acquired a T of some sort (especially those who were put off by the slider) will, I think, be seriously tempted by the T5

[Gekko]

New X50 pic with VGA

http://www.monkeyfiles.net/iuploader/dellx50prepro.jpg

[PixelPusher]

Gekko,

Is the X50 still going to be released on the 12th?

-Eric