T665 or TG50?

[cademis]

Considering one does not need BT (and a keyboard) I see no obvious reason to update from the T665 to the TG50.
Any objections?

[mashoutposse]

I'd like OS5, the much faster processor, Bluetooth (you don't need it? Well that's you), Macromedia Flash, MPEG player, and voice recorder. All this in addition to the keyboard. I don't agree with you at all.

[quiller]

i'm tempted by the TG50 for OS5, the 200mhz CPU, and BlueTooth (and the added Flash player and other software). However, I use my current palm (615) primarily to look up contacts and as a calendar as well as for news (AvantGo) and reading eBooks and such. Any data entry I do through Outlook, so the keyboard is just an accessory I don't need-- I can write as fast with Grafitti as I can normally, and a keyboard won't help since I am only jotting notes and addresses through the PDA.

For me, the perfect device is what has been begged for on the T-series forum for awhile now: The TG50 specs with Virtual Graffiti instead of a keyboard.

[Bionic Antboy]

I agree with cademis.  I personally have no need for a keyboard, but would love a VG device in the T form factor, just like a lot of people, from the posts I've seen.  I'm hoping that Sony will announce something like this in the near future.  For now, I'm sticking by my trusty T665. 

[Jeffry]

Can you just use the keyboard by using your right finger to enter data while holding the stylus at the same time? Isn't that faster than graffiti?

[quiller]

the more i think about it, the facts seem to make sense. the key to VG in a T-series is battery life: the TG50 is rated at 11 hours, but as stated in another thread here, add another third to the LCD and the battery life could plummit... of course, if Sony could fix that and keep the battery life around 10 hours, i see no reason *not* to make it. afterall, how many people here would buy a T-series with VG?

[sixty-four]

Originally posted by quiller
the more i think about it, the facts seem to make sense. the key to VG in a T-series is battery life: the TG50 is rated at 11 hours, but as stated in another thread here, add another third to the LCD and the battery life could plummit... of course, if Sony could fix that and keep the battery life around 10 hours, i see no reason *not* to make it. afterall, how many people here would buy a T-series with VG?

The TG50 is battery is rated at 5.5 hours of PIM usage with the backlight *off*. I'm guessing that this will translate to maybe 3 hours of usage with the backlight brightness at around half. And that's with "normal" usage - what happens when you throw stuff in like MP3 playback, voice recording/playback, and CPU intensive activities such as video playback? Battery life is definitely the Achille's heel of this seemingly outstanding PDA.

To confirm the 5.5 hours, take a look at the specs again. Sony says if the unit is used for 30 minutes a day, the battery will last for 11 days.

[quiller]

my bad-- truthfully, though, a five hours a day is more than anyone is going to be using it and with the new LCDs the backlight isn't needed as much as with the 615. if you're using, say, an hour a day that will last you about five days, right? charge it at night, like most people do, and you'll never see the difference... and with a T-series connecter you can get a solid 3-in-1 charger for $10 off eBay. though throwing in the VG instead of a thumboard might drop that battery life even more.

[ScottLP]

I'm also sticking with my T665. Like everyone else I would love a keyboardless CLIE with 480 X 320 and virtual graffiti. I could even live with mediocre battery life.

I assume that sony knows that this is wanted, but from what people on these forums say, I wonder if the technology is possible given the battery life limitations.

[Bionic Antboy]

I don't think the battery would be a big issue. I suspect that Sony probably WILL release something like that, but is waiting until they think the time is right. I suspect that it has more to do with marketing than technological limitations. If the NX lost it's clamshell design, the keyboard, camera and hinge, the physical size it would need to be is no bigger than a current T665. Of course, this is for a unit without a CF slot, throw one of those in, and the unit may have to be a LITTLE bigger (either depth or length), but not by much. This is just based on what I've seen of the insides of a few Clies.

Also, when comparing potential features to those of the Garmin iQue 3600, which is about 1/4 inch longer, and a fair bit thicker, but includes fully functional GPS hardware and 32 megs of memory, the T extended device seems very realistic, and could sell for about $400 - $500 US depending on exact features.

If such a device came out (especially with more mem), it would probably become Sony's biggest seller, so they want to establish some niche markets with the NZ and TG first, before rolling out the T-extended machine. They also couldn't charge TOO much for it, because it's manufacturing costs would definitely be lower than the NX (and maybe even the TG50). It would also be properly placed in the market to compete with more mainstream PDA users who are trying to decide between Palm and Pocket PC based devices.

This is just speculation on my part, but having dealt with product management types (and actually drank with them -shudder-), I can totally see a scenario like this.

From comments posted on this board, and other Clie user groups, it appears a lot of people are seriously giving the Garmin a close look when it comes out, considering it's features. I'm willing to bet that Sony will announce something either just before the Garmin's release, or shortly thereafter. If not, the iQue could become a surprise hit in the PDA community, because it would be the most robust Palm OS 5 PDA on the market, with the most onboard memory, and standard SD slot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of what Sony has done for the PDA market, and I want to stick with their procucts, but by the time I plan on upgrading in the summer/fall, I hope Sony has the device that I want, otherwise, I'll be giving the Garmin a closer look and reading the reviews once they are out. I'm seriously torn between going for NX or iQue, and I don't really want a clamshell device OR a GPS device.

Well, I'll just wait and see I guess...

[Importluva]

The ique from what I understand has 16mb of normal ram, and 16mb that is solely dedicated to the GPS maps.

I think that sony will announce a VG TG soon enough. Maybe at that technology show this month?

[Cyberdoc]

Originally posted by ScottLP
I'm also sticking with my T665. Like everyone else I would love a keyboardless CLIE with 480 X 320 and virtual graffiti. I could even live with mediocre battery life.

I assume that sony knows that this is wanted, but from what people on these forums say, I wonder if the technology is possible given the battery life limitations.

Just like you I Own a T665, and I love it! But why the hype over a 480x320 res when it's not much mor over the 320x320?

[Cyberdoc1971]

Originally posted by Cyberdoc


Just like you I Own a T665, and I love it! But why the hype over a 480x320 res when it's not much mor over the 320x320?
Sorry, I'm a returning member, Which I use to be Cyberdoc but forgot my old account info. But regardless, I also like the design of the TG50 mostly of the backlit keyboard, being a writer and all.

[Unregistered]

I also have a very strong feeling that Sony will come out with a TG50 device with VR.

I am a owner of NR70 and I love it but honestly speaking I have almost never touch the built-in keyboard.

Another thing is that I think the clamshell design is not very helpful either as I always turn my NR70 to the tablet mode, and sometimes fed up of doing it and just leave it in the tablet mode.

So a TG50 with VR is certainly most welcome.

[Cyberdoc1971]

The clamshell design actually offers two major benefits. First, it provides some form of screen protection; probably not if the unit is dropped, but from dust. Second, the design gives the unit a shade for the screen in out door conditions so you can see the screen better.

[quiller]

But why the hype over a 480x320 res when it's not much more over the 320x320?
it's not the extra pixels that we want, it's VG.. Virtual Graffiti. In the NZ/NX/NR series, the silkscreen Graffiti area isn't built in but can be hidden on command-- it can be skinned, too! it gives that much more real estate which, on a small screen compared to our normal 1024 or 1600 monitors, helps.

[Streamhawk]

I have been a Palm OS based PDA user, since the Palm Vx came out for the first time, maybe 6 or more years ago. Now I'm the proud owner of a T665C, it works great and when I saw the TG50 for the first time, the first thought that came to my mind was that we're going back.

Graffiti was introduced with the only purpose of taking out the keyboard from the equation. The truth is that most real palm users (and with this I mean, the ones who use it daily, all day for different purposes) know the graffiti like second nature by now. A keyboard is only taking up screen space on a perfectly made PDA. Sure there's a big problem with the battery, but that's what progress is all about, there's no doubt in my mind that Sony will find a solution to this problem, because if it's really a problem it's the only one stopping them from making a VG PDA with a bigger screen and still have the same size that all T-series users have come to love. I respect the users who want a keyboard for better writing, there you have the TG-50, it's your dream come thru. Now please let us graffiti lovers have ours. Thanks.

[yOyOYoo]

A lot of palm users use graffiti and more are beginning to use keyboard, especially new users. I would consider myself an old user but I still love to use the NR70v's keyboard to type in long notes into my journal or writing a short email while i'm connected to the net.

There is a niche for thumb keyboards, as it offers the user to hold the unit in there hand and type, with the stowaway type keyboards you have to find a flat surface to type.

the thumbboard is not a waste of potential screen space. A hard graffiti area is. LOok at the t665, the area where graffiti is locaated is such a waste of space. I do agree that the VG would be excellent, but I can't put down the TG50 because I'll have to admit, the keyboard makes good use of this space below the screen.

This alone is a good reason for T665 users to switch to the TG50.

Graffiti is good for very short one sentence notes, the thumbboard is good for longer notes, short emails, journal entries, contact entries, and the full sized stowaway keyboard is good for typing up reports. Every type of input has its own pros and cons.

What would suit me best would be a T series with virtual graffiti and an optional snap on thumbboard. That would be perfect for me. I do use the thumbboard on my NR often but when it comes to watching widescreen movies, or playing games, I could see how the TG50's thumbboard would take the space of a potentially larger screen.

[quiller]

i agree with both yOyOYoo and StreamHawk. a thumboard seems a waste of space, but only when you aren't using it. for about 60% of my PDA use, I am gathering information-- looking up a contact, reading something, catching up on the news from AvantGo, or some type of media/games. The other 40-35% is spent entering data, normally as simple as adding or changing contact information or adding a todo/meeting. If I have to do any type of extensive typing, it waits until I get to a desktop machine. For this reason, I would highly prefer a T-series with Hi-Res+.

Seemingly, the only thing getting in the way of a T-series with VG is battery life. If the iQue has a way of getting around this, then I'm sure Sony will, too.

[mashoutposse]

The Garmin really hasn't solved the problem -- it's still almost as big as an NX (and thicker than an NR!).

Really, the clamshell CLIEs are an excellent solution to the problem of getting a keyboard and a 320x480 display on one PDA. I can either flip the screen over and have a reasonably sized tablet PDA, or I can open it up and use the keyboard to punch out messageboard posts like this very one :)

[quiller]

if they weren't so darned thick and long, i'd love the NX series... of course, the Garmin is too thick. if they took out the GPS and threw in BlueTooth instead, you'd have the perfect machine that Sony needs to be making. Garmin won't make it because they are an outdoors company, not an electronics company.

[Bionic Antboy]

Originally posted by mashoutposse
The Garmin really hasn't solved the problem -- it's still almost as big as an NX (and thicker than an NR!).

Really, the clamshell CLIEs are an excellent solution to the problem of getting a keyboard and a 320x480 display on one PDA. I can either flip the screen over and have a reasonably sized tablet PDA, or I can open it up and use the keyboard to punch out messageboard posts like this very one :)

Sure, for those that want a keyboard!  :) Obviously, a lot of people want a VG machine in a T form factor.  That's been apparent through many threads on the board.  

After seeing the insides of an NX70, there's no reason why they can't fit the same guts into a device the same size as a T665, and have the same battery performance as an NX70.  If they want to increase battery size, they could probably still do it, or maybe make the case SLIGHTLY larger.  The only reason the Garmin is so big is because of the GPS, and the addtitional battery power it would require.

I really believe the main (if not only) reason Sony is holding out on such a design is for marketing purposes.  They want to maximize sales of other units before releasing what would, IMHO, probably become their best-selling Clie.  I'm sure some of their marketing wonks check out the fan sites, and I'm sure they know the demand is there.

I'm hoping Sony will announce something soon.  :)

[Mastervtec]

Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
I really believe the main (if not only) reason Sony is holding out on such a design is for marketing purposes.  They want to maximize sales of other units before releasing what would, IMHO, probably become their best-selling Clie.  I'm sure some of their marketing wonks check out the fan sites, and I'm sure they know the demand is there.

I'm hoping Sony will announce something soon.  :)

I read this whole thread waiting for someone with common sense!! Finally!! The battery life is not even a hold-up for not coming out with vg and what not, the technology industry can do things we still think are impossible, things far above making a long lasting battery. The battery is not the problem, like bionicantboy said, it is for marketing purposes.

[quiller]

now that i think about it, this makes too much sense. it isn't about making the perfect device-- if they did that, what would they have left to improve on? you're right, antboy, Sony is going to wait right until they have drained the market and then launch the perfect PDA. so, until then, i'll survive very nicely with the TG50 :)

[Bionic Antboy]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's about the "perfect" Clie. I think it has more to do with 2 other factors...a more "popular" Clie and "trickle down" economics :)

See, they introduce the new features (OS, processor etc) in a high end device first, for bragging rights, or maximum impact in the market "mindshare". Then they start coming out with more "niche" oriented devices with the same features. Eventually, they'll release it in a more "mainstream" or "popular" form factor.

This way, they appeal to the "first on the block" crowd, or "keeping up with the Joneses" crowd, get the big splashy press, then eventually roll out the tech in a wide release. This will maximize sales of the earlier versions to a number of people, some of who may in all likelyhood migrate to a more mainstream form factor.

If Sony had released the TG50 first, or a VG OS 5 T series, then sales of the NX and NZ may have been lower, as some of the people in the "me first" crowd would not have particularly wanted or needed the clamshell/2 MPixel camera. This way, they are getting the best of both worlds, or at least more sales overall.

I'm willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that by the time Garmin's iQue hits the street we'll see a Sony VG T form factor (whether it's designated T series or not - it could be S or something new).

The reason I bring up the iQue is that although it is somewhere in the size range of the NX, it doesn't have a clamshell and it does have an SD slot and 32 MB of RAM, both of which would really appeal to a large number of PDA users. It's a device a lot of Clie users have mentioned being interested in. so I'm sure it's something on Sony's radar as well.

Or maybe I'm just over-analyzing too much, and it's a slow day at work :)

[quiller]

antboy, you make a good point: many devoted Clie users have remarked in this forum and others that they would switch to the Garmin if Sony didn't have a similiar model by 2nd quarter. if Sony does have some type of marketing or PR people browsing these forums (which i'm 99.9% they do, as big as they are-- they aren't stupid) or even if some high-up Sony employee just "happened" to stumble across ClieSource... well, they are going to read up on that and know that if they hit the market a couple days or even a week before the iQue, they've beat them.

of course, within a few days i think we're going to hear mumbles of:

NX-form factor, 320x480 screen and skinnable Graffiti on the bottom tablet... even *more* real estate, plus it takes advantage of the 3" or so of 'wasted' space on the bottom slab

[yOyOYoo]

quiller, that would be great, but more real estate? wouldn't that mean we would need another new sony api and thus more programs would need to be reconfigured to support it?

I'm quite happy with 320 x 480, and I can't wait until we see more hi-res+ screens in future models.

btw, when does CeBit start anyways

[quiller]

continue this discussion here (http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6875)

[bluguru]

Wednesday, March 12th in Germany. I don't think we will see anything new from Sony though. According to Brighthand's annual predictions (thanks Ed): companies either announce before the show (and show off during the show) or announce AT the show. Looks like Sony announced before the show (of course one never quite knows with Sony, do they?).