New SonyOS instead of PalmOS?

[Bobbert]

As we all know, Sony recently announced they were reconsidering the handheld marked, and were not going to be selling the Clie line in the US this year.

What many of us have been wondering is what they are considering as options. One possibility that I had raised earlier in a separate thread included the potential to use the PSP as a platform to run PDA applications.

But maybe Sony is aiming much higher than that...
In the latest PC Magazine, John Dvorak says that there is a new "Cell microprocessor" from IBM, Sony and Toshiba which will be used in Playstation3. And he says that it is creating buzz bigger than anything we've heard since PowerPC. He says it has the potential of being a revolutionary chip that could even become a new desktop platform.

But the most interesting comment is that the EE Times said "IBM will develop the Cell-based workstations while the Sony group develops the operating environment." In Dvorak's words... "This is a subtle way of saying that Sony will roll out an OS. Will it go up against Apple, Windows, and Linux? Now that would be interesting."

When one interprets this comment in the light of Sony's interest in desktop computing, desktop gaming, handheld computing, handheld gaming one has to think that they have at least considered the possibility of creating an OS that will work seamlessly to meet all those needs. Sony is committed to the handheld computing concept, but obviously is pulling back from PalmOS. It would make a lot of sense if they plan to create their own "SonyOS empire." Sony has certainly not been shy about proprietary software or hardware.

I would guess that the economics would work because they would have a large market for the OS all by themselves on Sony devices. But if the processor is as exciting as Dvorak indicates, it might have unlimited potential to make inroads in the desktop market also. Plus, with Sony developing it from the ground up to integrate gaming and desktop and handhelds, we might find that it creates a whole new sort of paradigm and ease of use for PDAs and smartphones. I think that fits in nicely with the tone of Sony's verbal announcement about reconsidering the handheld market. They basically told us they are committed to it, but are reconsidering how they approach it. This would be a logical new approach. We'll see pretty soon!....

[hamsammich]

Very interesting, indeed.

[sigelang]

It is called dominating your own "Living" room.

Their only option is to use an "Open Sourced" OS so they can make Millions
of $$$ without paying u$oft and PALM.

It is called "Grees".

[caipro]

a viable? "new" OS isnt such a bad idea.. i would welcome it.. there has to be someone who would be willing to shake Microsoft out of their apathy and force Apple to be a little less stuck up.

[TheRealZero]

But what about compatability with the thousands of programs available for palm?

[palmpirate]

Actually, IF SONY would need their ´own´OS, they would simply buy PALM (hey, they already have 10% of the shares anyway, right ?)

But I´m sure it has something to do with the PSP and or the PS3 - all about strategies and politics. It could be so simple: Use PALM OS in the PSP and your next gen of smartphones!

[caipro]

i think they would be stupid to throw a proprietry OS in with palm and MS, the sensible idea would be to make the OS side and retro compatible with the lovely Sony embellishments we all love..an OS that could run anything! what a dream!!.. and the key to world domination hehe!..
i know.. i know.. we are talking about Sony not a PDA utopia, but i can dream eh?

[strider_mt2k]

What about Symbian OS?

Brighthand has an article about a couple of new smartphones that Nokia is releasing.
Of course Nokia developed some overlay to the OS, but I'm reading more about it lately.

They seem to be trying to offer the same functionality.

[caipro]

Symbian.... hmmm.. you do have a point there...tho i dont really have much experience with it..

[arbar131]

symbian OS doesn't hold a candle to pocketpc or palm, its not that great- im saying this with experience

[Otakud]

I personally don't buy this whole thing about Sony making a desktop OS or anything close to it. I could see them trying out a handheld OS, but like all else that is Sony proprietary, I don't think it would go over well with consumers. Why is it that I gave up the mini disc platform and opted for an iPod? Because netMD is just a big hassle with the ATRAC3 standard. The same goes for pricey Memory Sticks and Sony-branded accessories. In the end, I think it would be a bad business move for Sony to attempt to overthrow either Palm or Microsoft - not that Sony has a good track record for making sound business decisions...

I also don't buy the "buzz" over the cell processor. So what? There was all this hype over Playstation 2's "emotion engine," and what did it have to show for it but the imfamous "jagged edges" in the early stages of production. Also, IBM is not only working with Sony, but also Microsoft on the Xbox Next AND Nintendo's next generation video gaming hardware. However, Sony is the only one that'll be using the "Cell-processor." I don't see a reason why Sony's Cell processor would be leaps and bouds ahead of XBox Next or Nintendo's "Revolution" when IBM is working on all three systems at the same time. And do you really think Sony and IBM's new chip could replace Intel or AMD? Probably not. Even if sony managed to implement the chip in a desktop market, if all I could load on the computer was a Sony OS, I wouldn't even think about buying it. Sony is too focused on their Sony-only mentality to be successful in all these different markets. Just watch their new HDD-based MP3 players be crushed by the iPod, for example.

I love Sony and all, but I think they've got it all wrong. They don't take over the world by forcing stupid, pricey proprietary standards on consumers - and Sony certainly isn't in the position to force anything on the consumers. Unlike in Microsoft's situation, there's a lot more variety out there where Sony's target markets are concerned.

[hamsammich]

Although I'm completely satisfied with the Palm OS, it would be neat to see another competitor in the market.

[tpipher]

Well I must admit this is very interesting Hypothosis. However even if Sony came out with an OS better than anything we have seen before, could run all the Apps out there that XP does I am not sure how much better off we would be, I mean come on one of the biggest problems with Sony is there crappy customer service and proprietary standards. This sounds like Microsoft all over again! (maybe even worse) atleast MS does SOMETIMES play nice with others. Sony does not!

[Otakud]

As always with Sony, there's always the issue of price. If Sony somehow managed to pull off a super micro processor by the time they released the PS3 sometime in 2006-2007, how in the world are they going to make it affordable. Look at what today's top of the line Intel chips cost. For the chip alone, that's a good $300. I think Sony's logic would be to a make a video game system/home entertainment system/desktop PC. But the question is, who the hell is going to pay the $$$ for that thing? Certainly not me.

[palmem]

Oh no...

If we look at a lot of the other sony programs (sonic stage) I don't think that we will want to see a whole OS like that...

That and we'd have the worst support ever...

-Palmem

[sigelang]

Don't forget that at one point in time they dominate the Consumer TV market.
(Or they still do?)

[Otakud]

That doesn't mean they're in any position to take over the desktop computer market. Home entertainment system domination is a lot more likely with the new Blue-Ray DVD technology that's supposed to come with the PS3. I just don't think Sony has enough market penetration to capture a large percentage of home computer users.

[ballistic]

Sony is embracing Linux. They use it in the PS2. They are using it in the HDD AV NAVI System (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6146656870.html). What do you thing the PSP will run?

They can tailor Linux to lock down the OS with a ROM for DRM/Antipiracy. They do not have to pay licensing fees.

Sony doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

Palm OS didn't suit Sony's needs. Sony originally envisioned delivering multimedia rich content (music, movies, games) on the Clie line, but ran into problems. Sony had to customized Palm OS with custom API's for sound, color/hi-res diplays, etc in order to deliver a multimedia experience.

This had two consequences. First, developers had to customize apps to be compatible with the Clie line and Sony being Sony was very restrictive with giving out their proprietary API's.

The second consequence was that while Sony provided multimedia capabilities, DRM became an issue because Palm OS eventually caught up. In the beginning, Clies could only play Sony's proprietary ATRAC3 music format using Soundstage to convert MP3's and other music to play on the Clie. Eventually, other apps became available allowing other content without DRM to be played on the Clie. Sony could not control the OS and thus could not control the content. Sony does not want to make a portable device that can circumvent DRM as Sony is a huge music and movie label and member of the RIAA and MPA/MPAA. They want to protect their content with DRM by controlling the hardware and OS.

Linux does for Sony what Palm OS couldn't and fits better with Sony's vision of an 'interconnected world' and 'infotainment' by delivering games, music and movies to Sony devices.

[sdsdsd]

Linux does for Sony what Palm OS couldn't and fits better with Sony's vision of an 'interconnected world' and 'infotainment' by delivering games, music and movies to Sony devices.

Everything you said makes a great deal of sense to me, from both the business and technical ends. What I don't get, though, is why Sony simply could not have put the Clie line on "autopilot," without updates, for the rest of the year, instead of issuing a clumsy "We're not there or there anymore, but we're still here" statement.

If the idea was to move to Linux-based PDAs (or whatever they'd prefer to call them), and if you're not losing money on the existing line, why not just keep it going until the Linux line was ready?

If the idea is to cast a vote of "no-confidence" in Palm, introducing Linux-based devices and discontinuing PalmOS-based devices would have done the same thing without the confusion that's arisen.

Sony just doesn't strike me as that awkward when it comes to marketing. Very strange.

[Bobbert]

First, thanks to Ballistic for great info. Makes a lot of sense.

As far as Sony not continuing in the US it's probably just a cost/benefit analysis. They didn't see a lot of revenue, and they expect to get great benefit from using those people from the Clie group on other future products.

Plus they had too many irons in the fire and needed ways to cut their costs. Can't remember where I read that, but there's something else either acquired or ventured into that meant dollars were scarce.

I like to think Sony is going to use their version of linux on the PSP. That would be a really exciting development for the handheld world, but might be a blow to Tapwave's Zodiac.

Hopefully, if Sony does go Linux, they will want 3rd party apps to be written and will keep it the system fairly open.

[ballistic]

First, thanks to Ballistic for great info. Makes a lot of sense.

As far as Sony not continuing in the US it's probably just a cost/benefit analysis. They didn't see a lot of revenue, and they expect to get great benefit from using those people from the Clie group on other future products.

Plus they had too many irons in the fire and needed ways to cut their costs. Can't remember where I read that, but there's something else either acquired or ventured into that meant dollars were scarce.

I like to think Sony is going to use their version of linux on the PSP. That would be a really exciting development for the handheld world, but might be a blow to Tapwave's Zodiac.

Hopefully, if Sony does go Linux, they will want 3rd party apps to be written and will keep it the system fairly open.

Sony is trying to grow their intellectual property assets by merging with Bertelsmann (http://www.bertelsmann.com/index.cfm?oldBrowser=0) (Television and radio; book publishers; magazines and newspapers; music labels; print and media services; book and music clubs) and is in serious negotiations to buy MGM (4000 movie titles including the James Bond series, etc to add to their existing library). If these deals go through (and Sony needs the ca$h), Sony will become an even more powerful media giant, controlling over 40% of the movies that come out of Hollywood in addition to Sony Music, Bertelsmann's assets (Sony just came out with an electronic book reader and an Adobe pdf document reader for their HDD AVI NAV System, coincidence?) and the largest gaming market share with the Playstation and soon-to-be PSP.

Sony is realizing through the stiff competition in consumer electronics (from the likes of Samsung and LG) that intellectual property (aka content-music, games, movies, etc) is more profitable. Content is Sony's biggest asset that they can leverage in the marketplace against their competition. All the pieces of the puzzle would fall into place for Sony to deliver games, music, movies, books, magazines, etc through download services (Sony Connect) or on media (UMD, MS, DVD, CD, etc) all with DRM like it or not. Sony is not alone in embracing DRM. The iTunes music store has been an overwhelming success and has pretty much guaranteed that an iTunes/Sony Connect download service model is the future of online content delivery.

As far as the PSP possibly hurting the Tapwave Zodiac, I would have to disagree, but with caveats. The Zodiac has the potential to do all of the things that Sony may want to do with the PSP; gaming, movies, music, etc. Tapwave has to increase the amount of game developer support for the Zodiac, as well as other software developers. The Zodiac could easily follow the content delivery model with an online music store and even movies/videos. I think there is a veritable gold mine for TV episodes (like Southpark, etc) using SD card on a device such as the Zodiac, as long as pricing is done right. 20-30 minutes is just the right length of time (battery life, eye fatigue on a small screen, etc). This would be much more convenient than downloading/ripping/converting.

The Zodiac doesn't have the gaming capabilities that the PSP promises, but it is a much more versatile device. It could easily handle navigation with a GPS/Mapping bundle, music (with a microdrive that Scott R @ www.tapland.com is arguing for) and handheld computing much better than the PSP, IMHO.

As far as running other apps on the PSP and other Sony devices using Linux, I think Sony will make that almost impossible with firmware.

[ballistic]

Everything you said makes a great deal of sense to me, from both the business and technical ends. What I don't get, though, is why Sony simply could not have put the Clie line on "autopilot," without updates, for the rest of the year, instead of issuing a clumsy "We're not there or there anymore, but we're still here" statement.

If the idea was to move to Linux-based PDAs (or whatever they'd prefer to call them), and if you're not losing money on the existing line, why not just keep it going until the Linux line was ready?

If the idea is to cast a vote of "no-confidence" in Palm, introducing Linux-based devices and discontinuing PalmOS-based devices would have done the same thing without the confusion that's arisen.

Sony just doesn't strike me as that awkward when it comes to marketing. Very strange.


sdsdsd and Bobbert, thanks for the comments. Please bear with me while I carry this one step further and tie it all together.

sdsdsd, check this (http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58558&page=2&pp=15)thread and read my comments. Add it to this thread and discussion and here's the summary:

If Sony can control a large percentage of the content market share in addition to being a consumer electronics giant, they will have control of what consumers want (popular movies, music, games, books, magazines, etc) and how it is delivered. What are TV's used for? Watching DVDs, HDTV/TV playing your game console, etc; it's a content delivery device. What is the PSP going to be used for? Not just games but other content.

With the sale of a Clie, Sony was only getting a one time revenue for the most part (maybe a few accesssories and Memory Sticks). It's the content that is the most profitable, especially through constant sales like games. The PS2 could be sold at a loss when it first came out because they make the most$$ on game sales and licensing fees to developers.

Sony was a Palm OS licensee with the Clie line, and it did not give them the opportunity to make repeat sales on content for the reasons I stated in the other thread. When Sony can control a majority of content and hardware, they can dictate standards and formats with more market leverage and force others to license these standards and formats from them. If you (or any consumer) want to buy Sony's music, games, movies, books, etc, then you'lll have to play by their rules. If you're another hardware manufacturer and you want to tap into Sony's content market share, then you'll have to become a licensee.

This all ties in to the 'digital hub' concept Sony is moving towards with the PSX and PS3. The PSP will be the portable spoke in the digital hub. The HDD AVI NAVI is the development platform for the in-car spoke. The LIBRIe (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1553397,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532) (which also uses (http://www.sony.net/Products/Linux/notice.html) Linux!) is the development platform for digital ink/electronic books. The U50/70 is the development platform (now of choice) for handheld computing. Don't be suprised when they drop MS Windows XP and use their 'own' OS (Linux that has been heavily modified).

Note the common thread with all of these new platforms (Linux)??? The 'Big Picture'? Why the Clie was/is doomed?

[sdsdsd]

Interesting, ballistic. I do agree that there's far more profit in the "software" (movies, music, etc.) than there is in the hardware. I can understand Sony's efforts to bulk up in that area. But....

<<ballistic: When Sony can control a majority of content and hardware, they can dictate standards and formats with more market leverage and force others to license these standards and formats from them. If you (or any consumer) want to buy Sony's music, games, movies, books, etc, then you'lll have to play by their rules. If you're another hardware manufacturer and you want to tap into Sony's content market share, then you'll have to become a licensee.<<

I can see where Sony would try this, too, but I cannot see them winning with this formula. Too many companies (including Sony) have gone there and withered or failed outright:

Sony failed with Beta. Regardless of how good a format it was technically, or how stupid Sony might have been for not marketing it well or licensing it fairly, it was an attempt to dictate format that failed badly. Sony eventually started building VHS machines and releasing VHS videos rather than miss the much larger market that VHS had become.

Most of Sony's other attempts at format control sank quickly, too. What percentage of Sony's Memory Sticks are MagicGate DRM-protected sticks? How well does Sony do in the solid-state-MP3 player marketplace with as difficult as they have made it to transfer MP3s to the device? MiniDisk never did well. Sony's last successful format was Compact Disc, and I think that's partly because they collaborated with Philips, which restrained Sony from doing what they could to lock the format.

Sony also would do well to review Apple's example. Apple has, for all intents and purposes, locked down the hardware and software. And they own all of 2-10% of the market, depending on how you count it. That's not success. Even Apple could not ignore the Windows market, and has created Windows versions of QuickTime, FileMaker, and iTunes.

Do you think Sony honestly believes they can ignore more open formats like QuickTime, Real, MP3 just because they own the software and have keyed it to only Sony hardware? Will they ignore a wider market for their product in different formats just because they want the whole package? I don't see them surviving in the current market that way, and I suspect they will not conquer Microsoft that way, either.

[Bobbert]

sdsdsd,
While your points are exactly what I want to hear as a consumer, ballistic's expectations for Sony seem pretty reasonable.

I think if I were in Sony's position, I'd "go for the gold" and try to gain a significant piece of the content market. While that is being achieved, if they can make some pretty good proprietary DRM supporting devices (which they have every right to believe they can do), it only stands to reason that they hope to corner a significant market share of both content and delivery platforms. Even if they give up some market share, they will be shooting for profit margins.

True, they've had some formats that haven't succeeded in taking over the market, and even flopped, but I bet their profit margins on Memory Sticks are pretty good compared to some of the competing formats. And in the beginning, it wasn't clear that Betamax wouldn't win out.

My hope is that future Sony devices are open enough that even when they control their content, the devices also attract mainstream developers.

And as things progress, I'm sure we'll get more revelations about Sony's plan that will make it clearer what they are aiming for. One thing's for sure, it's going to be very interesting. And if Sony pays attention to what consumers want, it could lead to some really exciting PDA-like products as well!

[ballistic]

I can see where Sony would try this, too, but I cannot see them winning with this formula. Too many companies (including Sony) have gone there and withered or failed outright

sdsdsd,

You make some very valid points and I agree with the examples you stated. As Bobbert points out though, Sony's grab at controlling a sizeable slice of the the music and movie industries, as well as their dominance of gaming and entry into print media through Bertelsmann will only embolden Sony. Add this to 'past practices' that you cite (Memory Stick, Beta, etc, but those 'failed' when Sony didn't control as much content) and other proprietary tendencies that Sony is notorious for, and IMHO it is very likely to happen. While I don't necessarily agree with it, and whether or not it will succeed remains to be seen, I think this is Sony's game plan. If Sony does continue to innovate technologies like blue ray DVD, these Sony formats will catch on.

Media convergence and the digital hub are the future IMHO. Content is a large part of the equation along with information and communications. Sony will leverage their content market dominance into their consumer electronics like never before. What other consumer electronics/hardware manufacturers have even a fraction of the content assets that Sony does? No one else comes close.