Japanese dictionaries/etc for Palm -- do I really need to get a Pocket PC??

[iebnn]

Hi,

Ive been looking at the Japanese translation applications for Palm. I need some way (be it one application or multiple applications) to easily do Japanese->English and English->Japanese. Dokusha seems to do Japanese->English very well, but its E->J support is terrible (SLOW, inaccurate). There is that other application from Beiks that will do E<->J, but it only uses romaji (no katakana, hiragana, or KANJI). It also just lists a few possible matches for a word and doesn't explain any differences between the japanese matches (it could be a completely different meaning than intended). There seem to be a couple of other apps out there, but they require that CKJOS (sp?) application that doesn't seem to support OS5.

I'm going to Japan in less than 2 months and will be there for nearly 4 months... I'm still a beginner at the language and only know around 70 kanji, not nearly enough to get around in the good electronic translators available from Sony/Seiko/Casio (and I do not like the canon wordtank). I've been looking at Pocket PC solutions, and JWPce looks VERY nice -- on Windows at least. I don't know how fast (or slow) the dictionary look up on a PPC is, as I don't have a PPC to try it on. I'm considering buying a PPC mainly for using JWPce and a few other japanese dictionary type applications. Its English->Japanese support for the Windows version of the app is good, much better than Dokusha's .. and he says that hte PPC version is identical (just a differnet interface), but speed may be an issue.

Basically what I'm wondering is if I'm missing something, or if there's some other ebtter device for doing this or an application I don't know about. Thanks!

[iebnn]

Oh, and... I've considered getting a Libretto or something with a 120mhz CPU or so and using that with JWPce etc.

[voltz]

I have also tried the Palm dictionaries for Jpns/Eng and they all pretty much suck. Sorry, I can't comment on the PPC apps because I've not tried them.

I know you've mentioned your distaste for the Canon Wordtank (and similar dictionaries), but I have to say, one of these types of dictionaries will work better hands down. My Kanji vocab stands about 400 or so...good enough to navigate airports and train stations, but no where near what it takes to survive. But, using a dedicated dictionary product WILL greatly improve your kanji skills. I use the IDF-3000 (the only one truly designed for gaijin...the others are better suited for Japanese people trying to handle English) and can't live without it. Using my Wordtank has improved my Japanese skills, period.

Of course, if you have web access, this is one of the best translation resources I've found:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html

Sorry couldn't answer your question directly, but that's my 2 cents....

[iebnn]

Thanks for you help!! It seems that there are not many people who know a whole lot about all this :) (maybe that is why there has only really been one good electronic dictionary somewhat targeted at english natiev speakers). I only know around 70 kanji right now, which is no where near enough to navigate through the other ones from seiko/etc. I'll take a look at the IDF-3000... But, does it have any english->japanese? Or is it just kanji lookup? Does it fit in your pocket? Unfortunately I probably won't really have web access when I need to translate something (since I don't think I'll have the money to get one of those neat cell phones while I'm there), and I've seen that site before, it is very useful for when I'm at home :)

That Beiks one comes so close... if they'd only add the kanji w/ furigana to it, and explain the differences between the multiple choices when doing e->j it would be perfect. Oh well :(

Again.. thanks for recommending the IDF-3000. I'll look into it.

You might want to look at the JWPce application -- I've found it's incredibly useful even on my PC, and he has also written it for Pocket PC (which is why I'm considering getting a PPC for this).

[iebnn]

Oh, by the way, here is where you can get JWPce:
http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html

Would you mind trying it and telling me how it compares to the wordtank? It has a lot of features (its manual is over a megabyte!), and the Pocket PC version is identical.. He's also got some flashcard application.

And on the topic of kanji... try King Kanji for palm. I've been using it a lot to test my knowledge and to learn new kanji (and get the stroke order right). Very useful. It even supports custom lessons, so I put all the ones in from a book I have.

Thanks!

[voltz]

I should have mentioned about the IDF...if you can't read hiragana/katakana you're still going to have trouble, but if you can, than looking up the readings for kanji you don't know is really fast and simple. And yes, its English to Japanese dictionary is in fact one of the largest in a handheld dictionary...again, because it's designed for gaijin. So it'll do Eng to Jpn, Jpn to Eng (in Japan, you'll use this more), Jpn to Jpn, it also has a handy Kanji dictionary where you look up characters by radical and stroke order (still, a tedious process), and it will store bookmarks to words that you can use to build a vocab test. Size wise the IDF is about the same size as an original Palm PDA--not as small and slick as some of the other models, but it does have a good, easy to use keyboard--it does fit into a pocket. If you buy one, get it in Japan for the best price.

If you want a cell phone, and if you're going to be there for 4 months you may need to...check out what's called a "pre-call" phone. That's a cell phone that you buy prepaid minutes on and punch it into you phone. As a gainjin who is not a resident, you can't even buy a regular cell phone...and renting one will cost you a small fortune. I got one for about $70 US. However, they've recently started to get strict about who buys one of these phones...they used to let anyone buy one, but found that many criminals where buying them for illegal uses. If you have trouble, you may have to ask one of your Japanese friends to buy it for you. I looked at pre-call phones from both DOCOMO and JPhone and decided on the DOCOMO. I have a P651ps and it will do iMode so you can surf the web if you get it with that option enabled. The best thing about the pre-call phone, is that you own it and can take it home with you (of course you can't use it in the US, but you can show it to your friends and really make them green with envy). But you'll have a phone to use whenever you go back to Japan...just go to any DOCOMO store, buy a new card and you're back in business.

BTW: I use a flash card program called Flash! 2.0.8 on my PalmOS device. It's only romaji, but it's great for learning vocab. I've been using it for a few years...so you should check palmgear or the like to see if there's an updated version.

Thanks for the link on the JWPce...I will try that and get back to you with my impressions.

I know what you mean about not many people knowing much about this type of stuff...it's been a long and difficult process for me too.

Good luck in your efforts to learn the language.

[iebnn]

LOTS of thanks for all this help. The IDF looks pretty nice, but it's a hard decision -- I can't get both, and each is around $200-300 it seems (btw I can read/write hiragana and katakana pretty well). The cell phone prepaid option sounds really nice, and I didn't know you could even get imode and stuff on a cheap phone like that! Will it be a problem that I am a minor (16)? I could probably ask my host family parents to get it for me and I will pay them. Does the $70 include any minutes? How much does that cost (around)?

Thanks again!!! You've been very helpful :)

[iebnn]

Also, some of the advantages (?) I have seen in JWPce it seems..... there are many ways to look up kanji, including by radical, table lookup, strokes, hiragana->kanji, and I believe it has the SKIP code and a couple other systems. Also it can be used to read japanese documents on a ppc, and I can select words I don't know and look them up in the dictionary. However, the EDICT is not an english->japanese dictionary, so a few extra results are displayed when searching for something, but it appears to have some very nice filter options and my searches in the dictionary have turned out well (getting the word I wanted). But then again... there is no keyboard with a PPC, and I have to use the onscreen letter recognition or th keyboard (unless I get one of those ancient ones that have the keyboard attached... I'll have to look into that).

[iebnn]

Oh and thanks for the Flash! recommendation.. I'll go find it and load it onto my clie :) sounds good

[voltz]

iebnn -- checked out JWP. Pretty nice software, especially considering the price. My 2 cents is the dedicate dictionary (like the Canon) is faster to use and a little more versitile. If you're deciding between buying a PalmPC (because you want to use JWPce), or a dedicated dictionary, I'd get the dictionary. Of course a PPC can do other things...but so does your Palm.

You'll need to read up on this, but all electronic dictionaries have a "jump" function that really make them very useful. "Jumps" work like hyperlinks on web pages. For instance, if you look up one word, "kazoku" or "family", the dictionary will return definitions and sample sentances. Reading the samples you don't know one of the other words, you can use the "jump" to look up that word. Like a browser, the dictionary has a "back" button to quickly take you back to your original word. This abiltiy to "drill down" through a dictionary is really powerful. Like I said, you'll learn more.

[BIGest]

Check this out!
http://www.geocities.com/andrew_brault/dokusha/

This program just the BEST! ;)

[iebnn]

If you'd read my messages you'd see why it's unusable to me. Its English->Japanese support is simply useless. It takes nearly 20 or 30 seconds, and you have to scroll through over 20 or 30 definitions before you find the word you're looking for (it's not very accurate at searching). Its Japanese->English support is great though, but I also really need E->J (and P OS doesn't really have a good solution for this. Beiks sucks)

[iebnn]

Thanks for looking at jwpce voltz. I may get the wordtank now. HOwever, I've been reading through google groups about it.... Someone said its kanji/japanese dictionary is not large enough. Have you run into this problem (has it not been able to find some words you looked up)?

Also another thing that I do not like about the wordtank is the kanji lookup... seems to be a pain.... the jump feature is nice though, but JWPce also has this (you can select text and go to the definition of it). The main thing I like more about the wordtank is the example sentences... have these been very useful to you? If that's the main thing that would make my decision, do you think that it is a significant enough feature? (I'm unable to try it before I get it so I dont know how useful the sentences are)

Thanks!

[voltz]

I've been hosting Japanese exchange students for several years, and have seen probably 50 different types of e-denchi out there (all students from Japan come with one...it's like a requirement). From my experience, with every one of them, you will enter one word or another and it will come up empty. The next denchi will have the word, the next one won't and visa versa.

For my level of Japanese skill, beginner/intermidiate, my Wordtank is more than enough. If you were a lawyer, or doctor, or AI engineer, maybe a general purpose tool like the Wordtank would be too limited for the specialized vocab you'll need to have. But for everyday use, it's good. My wife, who is completely fluent in Japanese uses it also, and does not find it to be limited. If someone says the Japanese dictionary isn't large enough, then they should get a different type of dictionary. There are so many.

On this particular Wordtank, the Eng/Jpn dictionary is much larger than the Jpn/Eng dictionary. The assumption is that gaijin need to translate more English to Japanese. Other models have larger Jpn/Eng dictionaries. It's a give an take. Ideally, someone would build the end all e-denchi that has it all, and maybe there is one. But most "for Japanese" e-denchi don't come with English menus, and have the tendancy of defining one kanji with another kanji which makes looking up readings very tedious.

I think kanji lookup is a pain no matter what tool you're using. Ever try looking up kanji in a paper dictionary? Whoa.... No matter what, it's tedious.

Example sentances are the best thing, yes. Those are worth it. I've even had times where a sample sentance came up that was exactly what I was wanting to say...so I could just read it out of the dictionary. Keep in mind though, that the Wordtank will have sample sentance with kanji in them. So for a real kanji beginner, you'll have to look up each kanji word to be able know how to read the sentance. At my current level of kanji reading, the Wordtank is challenging but not impossible. I have a friend who bought one but knows no kanji...for him the Wordtank is very difficult to use. But then again, he also does not study kanji so he's not learning as he goes. You'll find that if you learn the 300/400 basic kanji, you can do a lot because you keep seeing the same basic ones over and over again.

Give me a sample word to look up, and I can email you the answer that came out of my Wordtank for an example. I don't know if this site handles japanese characters, so shoot me an email so I can get your address and we can take this offline.

[iebnn]

Hi,

Sorry for asking so many questions about this, I just want to make sure I make the right decision for which device to get as I won't really be able to change my mind after purchasing it (since I'm leaving in a month or so). :)

As for kanji lookup... Windows has actually added a very nice feature to the IME pad, where you can draw the kanji and it will look it up for you. The perfect translation device would be something that runs Win2k or xp and fits in your pocket -- the Sony VAIO U3 specifically, but I don't have $2,000 to spend on this :-) There is some software package for PPC that lets you draw japanese characters and it will recognize them, but I'm not sure if it works with the english ver. of the OS -- I'll have to check into this.

I don't even know 100 kanji yet... Is the only part of the wordtank that is difficult to use (if you don't know much kanji) the example sentences? It is nice to be able to learn them by seeing them in the sample sentences and looking them up with the Jump function, but I worry that I'll have to spend a couple minutes looking up each kanji in the sample sentence when I'm trying to quickly find a japanese word and see how to use it (eg when I'm talking with someone).

Right now the only advantage I see with the wordtank is the sample sentences... they look very helpful though.

Could you look up "to run"?

Thanks!!

btw my email is aehlke@greendragonsoftware.com

[pnorman]

I agree with some of the observations above; ease of use of those native Japanese translators increases exponentially with one's own Kanji base. I "know" ~1500 to various degrees, and am able to make effective use of my Seiko SR900.

But that Gakusha program really got my attention and I loaded it all into my T615; with the main program in main memory and all the rest in the MS. But it didn't seem to work with the MS. RATS!

However, I recently made a problematical decision; to refrain from waiting to see what Sony had on the market by summer before I upgraded. Instead, I ordered a T665 (~$270) and will wait till the following year for a super model. I had been wondering what to do with my 615 when the new one arrives (hopefully next week). So now I know! Hopefully, my soon to be redundant FastCPU will work okay with Gakusha.

Question: If I put the new 665 in the cradle and give it my regular User Name, will it back up all my old files onto the new one? I read about that somewhere and it was supposed to be that simple.

[iebnn]

It should, prnorman (regarding the sync).

Dokusha has terrible E->J support though :( making it not-so-useful to me. I think I'll go with the wordtank idf-3000 ($100 off ebay!)

[pnorman]

Thanks for the prompt response. After I get my forthcoming 665 loaded the way I want it, I'll sync my old 615 to another computer, and then try out that Gakusha. Considering the size, there's no reason why carrying two Clie 6x5 machines would be any problem. And 32MB main memory was always at the top of my wish-list. (I'm working out a nice Division of Labor scheme, this very moment). There're probably others here who really like their T615, but feel foolish upgrading in small increments. Well, here's a good excuse.

I'm really glad I came across this thread before it got buried too deep. I also have a Win CE 3.0 H/HC (HP720) with LOADS of memory (a PC slot and a CF slot). I'll give that other program (JWPce} a look-see.

Paul Norman
pnorman@seanet.com

[iebnn]

You'll like JWPce a LOT more than Dokusha.

[pnorman]

I'll be able to compare the two in a week or so. The machine I had my heart set on a few years ago was the Compaq 3xxx. But it was so hopelessly back-ordered that I finally got the HP720 instead. It's a very nice machine, but NEVER to be compared to a shirt-pocket device.

I've been up all night and I better get some sleep pretty soon. I'll try to install that JWPce later in the day. I'm sure I'll like it, but if Dokusha is anything like it looks to be, I'll be enjoying the hell out of it. As I said, carrying both T615 & T665 would be no big strain. And if I really like that JWPce, my HP720 can be managed too. (Maybe one of those fancy Scott vests will be my next buy).

I finally took a look at that Canon Wordtank http://www.thejapanesepage.com/howtowow/wordtank2.html and it looks just like what the other fellow described it, the one best suitable for a beginner. My own Seiko SR900 is loaded with features and even smaller than my Clie, but it would be too much of a hassle for you at the beginning.

I've had a slide rule in my hand at age 10 [I'm 73 now], and from that time on, I've become addicted to handheld devices that would perform useful (mathematical/logical) functions. You can probably imagine the elephant's graveyard I've filled with such gadgets over the years. But the Clie T615 (soon the T665!) will no doubt be my all-time favorite. I LOVE MY CLIE! The latest and largest models get my eye, but I have the gut feeling that they're getting away from the basic concept of a Palm.

Paul Norman

[iebnn]

JWPce is a lot nicer than Dokusha -- it has a lot more methods of looking up kanji, and uses indexed searches (meaning that especially E->J will be at least 10x faster).

How is your Seiko?

I have no trouble with figuring out how to use electronic devices (hell, I write code for palm os) -- the only thing that would make it overwhelming or something would be if it had all Japanese menus or lots of use of kanji without furigana. Does it have the Jump feature? Example sentences, etc?

You sound very interesting -- my dad is 63 and doesn't experiment at all with the many different features his palm-based cell phone (kyocera) has... he just uses it as a phone, memo pad, date book and address book.

[pnorman]

Sorry for the delay in replying. As for my Seiko, I really like it. I can see where the Word Tank would be, for me as an English speaking learner, easier to use than the Seiko. But (given a minimum level of Kanji already known) playing with a partially familar device is part of the Learning Experience. ~75 Kanji wouldn't be near enough ... unless you REALLY work at it. Then you might become a savant (insert smiley here). It would have nothing to do with your analytical ability; if you write Palm code, you beat me all to hell.

Here a good description of the Seiko SR900 http://www.seanspot.com/jbooks/dict/Seiko-SR900/Seiko-SR900.htm It has that Jump feature among other things. As for furigana, I haven't seen any at all on that device. I think that would require a higher resolution than would be practical in something so small (at present technology?).

Don't diss your dear dad on that account; it's mainly a matter of priorities. Also, I've been going to sea all my life (merchant seaman), and am generally regarded as "NOT fully grown-up". And that cell phone doesn't sound like an inviting platform for "playing around". But Father's Day will be here soon enough; get your dad one of those newer Clies (SJ333?). But don't hand it to him cold; spend a day or so loading it (& MS) with programs he'd be sure to like. AND THEN TRY TO BORROW IT BACK "JUST FOR THE WEEKEND"! (Oops, I just recalled; you're a student on a tight budget, so try e-bay).

Paul Norman
pnorman@seanet.com

[iebnn]

I looked into the seiko but the lack of furigana makes it too difficult for me to use. I just ordered the Wordtank IDF-3000 and will have it in a week -- I'll post back on here after I get it and play around with it some. If I want to do a lot of kanji lookup (with the wordtank being a little slow for that since you have to use radicals), I can always take out my laptop and use JWPce on there with the Microsoft IME pad (so I can draw the kanji).

Heh, I put a bunch of software on his Kyocera palm-cellphone, like mapquest (which he uses on his desktop a lot), but even after telling him how to use it he never does :) (he owns a company that does computer troubleshooting etc for people too).

[iebnn]

By the way, I got it for $100 off ebay.