My Launcher/OS

[zhamilton1]

Many of you have asked me what's happening with my launcher...

Well, I am still working on it. The reason I did not want to talk about it before was because I had not started programming it yet. But now... I have finished more than 7 of its API components.

Some details...

I have a totally new interface which looks realy cool. There is no white backround, I have totally played with the colors to give it a blue shade style (of course, the colors can be changed).

It looks alot like PocketPC. But dont let that fool you. I have studied PocketPC 2002 and found alot of flaws and you will not see them here.

Remember, I am not trying to make a launcher but rather an operating system. Windows to Dos style. Palm is now DOS and I found that using libaries I could create a multi-tasking enviroment with windows.

I do not want to say to much about it because I dont want to spoil it but so far progress is moving and the end of the API is close.

Once the API is finished (I hope by the end of the month) I start writing the UI which is what you see as in the toolbars the windows and the menus. The API provides the enviroment to implement windows such as the backround stuff (not what you see). This includes my multi-tasking component, my drawing component (automaticly deals with resolutions, depths and other annoying display problems) and other components that fill in PalmOS gaps like my Forms and Controls component.

Many of you are thinking it will probably be hard to use. Well I have poured in months of design (trust me, it was hard) in thinking how to design the windows and it looks absolutely wonderful.

I am not going to post screen-shots or beta's or half-code or any other half-done work. I will release the final version and updates after that but nothing before. I prefer to give no product at all then an unstable, hard to use product. It's just not worth it.

I use feature memory. It allows screens to be faster than any other launcher at opening and closing itself. Feature memory is storage memory. There is NO problem of storage overwrite. There is only a problem of defragmentation which I have a component which fixes that. (:

Bomb me away, but common, do you think I would realy keep the project this long if I was not working on it? Be serious!

Once the basic OS is finished I will be rewriting all the basic applications of Palm including address book, todo, date book and calculator to support the window asspect. It will be compatible with the existing DB's.

Now about launcher compotition:
I am not trying to compete with launchers but rather with PalmOS itself. I want to show what the platform is able to do and you will see what I mean.

Oh and the product is OS 3.1 and above compatible (I use the feature memory which requires OS 3.1)

That's all for now...

[Ambassador]

When your product is complete, will it overwrite the existing Palm OS? Or will you be able to choose between your OS and the Palm OS? Can you load it on a Ram card and run it? Keep on it Zakai, I'm sure there those in Palm land that are very interested in what you're doing.

[zhamilton1]

1. First of all it does not overwrite the OS(although you can move it to the rom). It is basicly a prc which fills all palm holes and uses shared libaries as programs (that is untill I can launch sub tasks (:).

2. It will be totally compatible with existing palmOS databases. The laucher is designed to quickly switch between itself and the existing PalmOS. For this reason, I use feature memory. Users can jump from the built in note editor in the OS to PalmOS Datebook and jump back to the note editor in the OS without having to relaunch the note editor. The OS is on as long as the device is on. Note: The OS initializies once in the first run after a soft-reset.

3. Resolutions and Depths in the OS are totally transparent. A program designed for 160x160 will work in the OS even on a 320x320 but just take less of the workspace.

4. Sony users get more workspace since I will support HiRes+

5. I have just finished the draw component and soon the basic display component (without resolution/depth changes that i'll implement at the end). I am working now on the form and control component which are the largest in size.

6. For users who are worrying about feature memory. I am going to test it totally by monitoring each chunk. The OS can be shut-down so for users who want to finish using the OS without restarting the device can just make it shutdown and it will unregister all memory chunks. This can be usefull for users who want to use a power application which needs the extra space.

7. I can tell you all that I have a huge path for the OS which will include many features that you wont able to live without... Just be patient because once it's released, you will NOT be disapointed.

8. It is not an emulator, it is programmed in C++ and cannot run PocketPC applications.

I will update in this thread more of what's happening,
Until then be patient (:

[Ambassador]

How much memory will your prc file take up? So far it sounds good Z! Like I said, keep at it!! Inquiring minds want to see! :)

[Tixx]

So this is still on and happening:) I remeber when it was first put here. Awww.... Can't wait to finally see it.

[zhamilton1]

I am still here to bring up hopes and deliver nothing... (;

No, seriously I am working on it.
I dont know about the prc size and but I am thinking realy hard on reducing it's size by thinking of new techniques. The API would probably take most of the space. But then again, it is an OS and not a launcher. Let's see ZLauncher integrate an API and you'll see thier prc jump to at least 500k (I am talking without the aditional db's). The API is the base of Screens. Just like in the Palm API you call functions in components. Each application released will have an API. This will allow programmer to develop plug-ins than rather rewriting the same app to add a feature.

The hardest part of developing the OS is not the coding, which I normally finish a component in a few hours but rather the design. I have spent nearly a year on design. I had to design it from the ground up and still have it kicking. Therefore dont expect it to come on a silver platter in a few weeks. In the beggining I did not know how chalenging it was, so my estimates were totally off.

However after 11 different written versions, it likes like this is the final version. I have done about 5 different interfaces to get the right one.

After the API is the actual UI code as in display a window here add a control there. I dont have PalmOS controls to easily draw and use events. I had to write my own edition. Why? Because PalmOS's API has many problems if you want to design multi-windows and multi-tasking. I found it to frustrating to have to hack into the existing API. Therefore I decided it would be faster and more efficent to build my own system.

If you have any questions, just post away...

[zhamilton1]

I have been finding a solution to the fragmented database problem and found a solution which does not even require feature memory (that means it is compatible on ALL versions untill I need another NEEDED function). I use the data manager call DmNewHandle. It creates a handle in storage memory and I can easily attach it to a database to store it. No need to copy it to the data storage just attach it.

Instead of having to lock and unlock each handle, I have made a function which unlocks the handle and returns the pointer and adds a message to lock the handle. This way when the system gets focus it locks all previously locked handles. Messages use dynamic memory since alot of reading/writing is done and speed is needed. But the size of a message is very small so expecting not more than 10 messages at once, it should take up less than a kb.

I am also redesigning the UI (AGAIN!!!). I cannot copy the pocket pc interface and call it my own. That's is just plain stealing. I am working on a new interface design. When I mean interface I mean the toolbars. Before there were two, I am trying to merge it into one. Well see where that goes.

But the development is going in the right way. If a memory leak does happen, even though the memory is lost the space is not fragmented since its a handle. The space get's freed on soft-reset (unless connected to a database).

I'll post some more info when it evolves...

[DazalC]

if u r not lying, ur porgram looks really promising!!!!
i have some questions.
can it run on a N760 clie?
when do u think is going to be ready?

i also have a sugestion
something that I think that will look extremly cool, will be a toolbar, at the bottom of the "desktop", that looks like the MacOSX(like http://www.be.wakwak.com/~ishiwata/ipmsg/screenshot.jpg)
where u put the mouse on the icon and it makes the icon bigger wich a kinda 3d look....
well I wish u keep doing this, that looks pretty cool!!!! (and i hope u make it free :D
Bye!
Daniel

[zhamilton1]

It looks like it will work on all devices. This is because it uses the API functions and follows PalmOS rules. With that, it will only be tested on devices above 3.0. I have lowered the version number since feature memory is not used anymore (:

About the release date, I have absolutely no idea... I do not intend to release a half made version, I intend to release a full power OS because that is what it is. Not some slowly updating process. Once it does work, I will release it to certain users for other device testing like different sony devices. However there shouldn't be any problems I hope.

About the development proccess...
Its going ok, I am going slow but I am reviewing my ideas and finalizing them. The memory component is a different implementation which uses data storage handles which lasts untill the launcher is reset, not the device. This gives it extra stability even when outside the launcher/OS. My latest thing was designing the toolbar. The basic UI will just be that basic. No advanced graphics just plain rectangles, lines and some bitmaps. I probably will include a few skins with the OS as well.

Price:
On one hand I need the OS to have a large comunity to succeed. The success of my launcher is on the number of developers for it. Freeware would do the trick, but just like everyone, we want some pay for hard work (and it is hard (: ), therefore I have settled with a starting price of between 10$ to 20$. This price will put me where I want to be, which is in the competitive market. Who is that? I dont know, probably launchers. (:

About your toolbar idea:
Exellent idea, but on the palm just having icons waiting to be clicked on is a waste of space. My toolbar takes only 15 pixels height. However I am thinking I could make it as a popup. This is you click on a button to display the icon toolbar and as you move your pen over each icon it grows and shows the name. Then just let go on the icon to open it or move the pen somewhere else to cancel. What do you think?

Note on resolutions:
The OS is like windows in the resolution arena. The higher the resolution, the smaller the pixels. This allows programs for smaller resolutions to work fine with no compatibility slow-downs what so ever.

[zhamilton1]

Screens is still moving and ideas are shaping into results.

1. OBS is my latest thing which I am working on to solve the file organization problems. What it does is using objects it allows each object to point to some kind of data: file, record or even virtual data. Objects can be moved around freely since objects are searched by meta data. I give more info on it as it evolves.

2. The memory management design is done which is great since it uses handles in storage heap which avoids fragmantation.

3. Bluetooth will be implemented after Screens is released. However the structure for it will be in place.

4. Infrared will also be structured but implemented as a last feature before the first release.

5. I am doing my libary research now. I use libaries to plug in to the launcher as applications. If that does not work, I might be sending a launch codes. This could make it easy for existing applications to work for the launcher and PalmOS with no problems. I am evaluating this. I can say that globals would NOT be available (too long to load). The API will be in a libary to minimize code size.

6. The toolbars design is finished and looks quite good. I use gradients to liven it up. I will release a bitmap soon...

7. Screens will work on any device above 3.0, however some features will not be available such as the audio play (since the driver requires 3.3 and above). Features that are not available do not apear. This allows me to implement as many features as I want without it showing to users that have no use for it.

Any ideas are welcome...
I'll post more soon...

[tsuribito]

Will it be standalone some time?
If you call it an OS but it still uses Palm OS then i would call it a Desktop Enviroment with some Apis but not an Operating System.

What license will it be? GPL or similiar? Or will it be closed source ?

I think that are enough questions :)

[zhamilton1]

I see your point... (;

Windows 3.11 runs on DOS and BOTH are Operating Systems.
Screens opens up a way for new application framework while still providing full compatibility to PalmOS applications.

If I would make it use launch codes, it would be easier for programmers to add support.

Why program for the OS?
Well that depends on how many people have it. If it does well stand-alone then programmers will consider it otherwise it will fail misrebely.

The PS offers programmers an easier programming enviroment as in a multi-tasking interface with multi-windows.

I have worked hard to make it easy to use but in the end only users will decide if it will be successful or not. I am hoping users will use it as thier today/launcher application and then slowly move over to being only in the OS. More like Windows from Dos move.

So yes, it will be standalone untill programs are developed for it.

About the licence:
I am moving between 10$ and 20$ untill it becomes more known. Once enough programs are made for it and once I implement my bluetooth networking feature, I'll shift it up to 30$. There will be a 30 day licence.

It will be closed source, however I will provide a API and examples for programmers.

[DazalC]

oo, another cool thing will be easy accesibility to the memory stcik.....
no aplications, or programs, just easy to enter using ur OS....
Bye!!

Daniel

[tsuribito]

Oh the free in GPL is not as i free beer but as in free speech :)
I suggest you make it open source because it can become very popular among programmers then.
You can still sell it when it is open source.

[zhamilton1]

What do you mean?
I give out the code so people can use but I still sell my OS? Someone can just take the code, change some words and release it under him, what's the point in that?

I am working on a new system OBS (Object Based System) to bridge between Ram and Card access. I'll release more info on it as it evolves.

I have decided to use Launch Codes instead of libaries since:
1. No need to open/close applications
2. It allows existing applications to provide double compatibility.
3. No precious dynamic memory used.

The only libary the OS uses is the OS itself. I do this to make the API global and therefore reduce size of applications.

It's moving forward...

Thanks for the questions, it sparks new ideas or answers to old ones. (:

[Unregistered]

Read it for yourself :)
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

[zhamilton1]

I'll think about the GPL thing...

If I do release it as GPL it still would not be free.

I suppose I'll have to write easy to read code with comments. DAMN! (:

Also no hidden hacks could be put... just joking (:

[iebnn]

I think you'll find it a lot harder to get a lot of support for if you charge around $30 for it. People aren't going to watn to pay $30 just so that they can use a few new applications (in the beginning), even if the environment is completely different. I do think it could take off if it were free or open source, or a lot cheaper than $30 with a non-greedy demo/trial (or perhaps a free crippled version of it), but I'm not so sure how would it will do at $30. Don't get too greedy or this will never take off and youll end up getting less.

[Ambassador]

I don't know about this Z. Your work may soon be for nothing if ZLauncher continues to evolve like it has been. It has very well proven itself. And it will be hard to conform others to something that is proven itself to be a "killer" app/launcher. The longer you wait the sooner yours will be shelved, see LauncherX. Unless you have something so innovative that Palm byes it out from you. Hurry up man, lets get something done!

[iebnn]

ZLauncher is entirely different.

[Ambassador]

Let's see it!

[zhamilton1]

I like all of you, I am very aware of ZLaunchers moves. It is the leading launcher of this time. But I am not trying to go against ZLauncher. In fact ZLauncher could be part of the OS. I am even thinking of contacting ZZTechs about this option once it's released. ZLauncher is a launcher not an OS. It does not have multi-tasking or multi-windowing capabilities. It does not allow to play wav files on OS3.3 and up.

So far the only thing which could fool my plans is probably OS6. And as PalmSource goes that could take some time. I am working on a release date but I dont want to push myself. If I released a "beta version" which was buggy or did not include all the features promised (i.e LauncherX) it's publicity shot would die quickly even if I brought 10 versions after it. I want the first version to include everything I promised and versions after that to evolve. There is no point for you users to move to a half OS and it's no point for programmers either. I want it to be stable not full of bugs.

Design is near it's end. The API design is realy two steps away and the UI is also generaly designed (not specific forms but the general idea). I am working on the OBS (Object Based System) but this feature I am thinking of not including in the first version or I might release the main parts of it in the first version.

About the price:
I was never going to release it at 30$. I am planning to release it between 10$ and 20$. Once the program evolves and it has programs designed for it then I'll boost the price up to 20$-30$.

I know you all want to see if I can deliver, so If I release it, it WILL deliver. If it wont deliver, I wont release it. (:

[Massman82]

Z,
Has there been an update? Any more screenshots?

[iebnn]

"more" screenshots?

[Massman82]

any screenshots?

[iebnn]

:) You made me think there were some available for a second there

[iebnn]

btw your yahoo group doesn't exist anymore

[Massman82]

Yeah, I'm going to take that out of my signature....

Someone did not like Launcher X, as you may know I owned the Launcher X group. That group got deleted, all of the owners' usernames got deleted as well, unfortunately. I do not know how to get my username back. Yahoo does not respond to emails...This is why the group is removed.

[zhamilton1]

There are designs but I would prefer to release actual screen-shots when I get it running...

Finished the OBS (Object Based System) design. It allows to organize files from the ram and card easily. It is sort of a shortcuts system. You create containers to hold objects. Objects can point to file in Ram, External card or virtual data. You can create copies of objects without duplicating the object's contents. That means you can have the same object in 10 places. Objects can change contents without changing them selves, this means you can move a file from ram to the card without no need to know this is even happening since the object that point to the file stays intact. Note that this only happens if using the OBS API and not the standard Palm API. There are no hacks involved.
If you have any questions about OBS, feel free to ask...

My drawing to the display has also been changed.
Each showed form (not hidden forms) has a off-screen window which holds the form's contents.
Before hand I would draw all forms on a off-screen window and then transfer the off-screen window's contents to the display to stop flickering. However this took a long time on a 160x160 display. The effect on a 320x480 display would create a huge lag in display draw.
What I do now is if a CERTAIN form changes, I copy the form's contents on to a temporary off-screen window and clear out all areas which are blocked by other forms. Then I draw that off-screen window straight to the display. This results in fast drawing with no flickering at all. This means that the active window actually draws the fastest since no areas are cut off.

I know am killing your anticipation but PLEASE be patient with me. I am not going to give up now, so dont plan just yet on your "I told you so..." (;

[Massman82]

Take your time but keep us updated.

[sinon]

Some quick questions:
If an app is integrated in your "OS", then:
1) How much dynamic memory can be used by the app?
2) How much stack can be used by the app?
3) How is the speed of the app running under your "OS"?
4) Can the app be launched by AppLaunch() or other similar ways by other apps?
5) Can the app handle the screen mode freely?
6) Too much need to be considered...

[zhamilton1]

First of all thanks for the questions! (:

1. Screens does not use dynamic memory instead it uses storage memory. This allows it to use much more of it without straining the system plus it gives applications to able to use dynamic memory. There is probably an overall performance degrade in write speed but since the system is hardly ever changed, this was considered.

2. Global variables does not exist in the OS, nor can applications have it. It is recommended to use features instead. The reason for this is because applications are only "live" when something is running on them. This means you could have 5 applications on display but realy only one application is running at a time. This is how I implemented my multi-tasking without no hacking around the system.

3. Speed tests have not been done however I have optimized the design to make it as fast as possible. While the app has control there are no slow-downs. The only possible slow-down is if applications add messages but they are only executed a bit later because of a lot of messages in the message list. This also depends on how much an app takes on a single message. By the OS a message should not take longer than 1 second to allow constant user intervention, however if doing a long-operation which requires speed and therefore no multi-tasking, a message can take longer before returning to the OS.

4. I would like to explain how the OS intergrates with apps written for it. The OS has a message list. The message list holds messages and the OS goes through them running each one after the other and sleeps while there are no messages. Each message either calls a function in the OS or a function in an app. The launch code of the OS is sent to the app by SysAppLaunch. Notice that the application can be an existing PalmOS application. If the application does not know about the OS it should exit with not problems but if it does know, it executes the data of the message which could be the user clicked on a button or a timer message and then should return to the OS. Think of it like the PalmOS find function. It executes some code returns to the system to let another app execute code. So from the app point of view, no multi-tasking is needed to be taken into account but it allows the OS to run other applications one after another. Since this method is used, closing the OS is fast since no libaries and no loading/unloading is needed. This makes the OS very mobile and great for the PalmOS since it loads in a need basis and does not let things load in memory for a chance that it might be used.

5. The OS does not limit the user directly however does prefer it not to affect other forms since this causes inconsistancy. Hacking is allowed as long as PalmOS allows. Remember that the OS adds a lot of functionality but does not take freedom by doing it. (:

I hope this answers your questions, if not just tell me. (;

[CopyCat]

Sounds like a good plan.

How about CompactFlash Support? You are going to replace all the programs that the Clie launcher have....AudioPlayer?

Sorry if these were answered I skimmed through rather quickly

[zhamilton1]

1. I will support VFS which means that includes SD, CF and MS cards. Even though I do not have a palm with a card slot, I will be doing a lot of emulator testing and will give it to palm card slot enabled buddies to test.

2. I am going to release the OS with all the basic applications beefed up using the OS features (windowing, multi-tasking...)
However some apps I cannot duplicate at the moment, AudioPlayer is one of them. The OS can organize the files very well but direct player support will not be for Sony OS5 devices that is untill Sony releases thier API, however it will support the Audio API for previous OS4 devices and TungstenT devices.
When I get to that stage, you know I will be asking for what you want in a player... (:

Passover is comming... This means I am at home and actually coding (I can only code at home).

One of the problems in other OS's including palm is the lack of support for plug-ins. The OS gives great support for plug-ins without the need of the developer of the program to know that plug-ins are affecting its program. No need for TSR or programs loaded at startup just to change a running program. Each form holds a list of registered plug-ins. When the user closes a form, the developer should save the form and restore it the next time used. This means that form's should only be created once and saved/restored after that. Then the plug-ins are included without constant need of connecting plug-ins to applications. I hope this will create more connected applications then many small utilities. (:

[zhamilton1]

Here I am after the holiday to give you the update... (:

First of all, the OS is realy shaping and I am thrilled on how its becoming more perfect by the day... (:

When I first thought of the OS, it was nothing of what it has become and I am very happy with the results...

I have been coding and its looking good. (:

One of my latest thoughts which will ship the OS is keeping the application load/unload feature. There is none!!! (:
Instead you run an application and it takes NO extra memory apart from the forms it runs which reside in storage memory anyway. (:

This means you could run 30 applications and not have a slow-down as long as they are not all active. (:

[Ambassador]

Sounds promising Zakai. Keep up the good work! Shalom brother!

Eric

[zhamilton1]

You might think that I am just talking but let me explain how I do it:

In other operating systems, when you run a program it loads itself into memory, loads the forms into memory and goes through an event loop. This means even when you are not doing anything it is still using a lot of resources including the CPU. This means for example that if you have 50 folders open in windows explorer, your system will start becoming VERY slow.

My OS does differently. when you run a program it loads the forms into storage memory (not dynamic memory) and then closes the program. You click on button, it runs the program again, this time with the event only (not initialize), deals with the event and closes the program again. This means that the program is only open when running. This is done using SysAppLaunch function in PalmOS. This means that if you have 30 programs forms running and you use a form, there is NO slow-down at all. When is there is slow-down? When moving windows and when changing focus. But since that hardly ever happens and the slow-down is minimal it is an effective process. What's the down-side? For applications that are run most of the time like Games there might be a problem which I am working on a solution for that, but meanwhile buisness applications work with no speed problems (by theory) (:

[Massman82]

Does your launcher run on your handheld yet? If so, show us some screenshots!! (Please?)

[DazalC]

PLEASE !

[nevarDeath]

He hasn't even finished the API, how is it going to run with a user interface when the API isn't even done??

Good to hear some news from you zakai!

[zhamilton1]

I have finished 1/4 of the API components:
The drawing component.

I have the memory component, messages component and the forms component. Each one is harder the the other therefore I am going from easy to hard.

I finished coding the first component in 1 day and it is working. It allows me to draw on the display without need to know of support of color or display dimensions. At the moment I am doing what I can to have it working and rather depend on plug-ins to add support for other resolutions. This minimizes the application size which takes off bagage that other users dont want/need.

Know that once the API is done, the hard work is done but the try untill looks nice work has not been done. I am talking about the UI. How the forms look, what controls they include, the code for the controls and other UI stuff.

But once the API is done, I can start showing you real screen-shots... YUMMY! (:

I just hope no wonderful new world shaking ideas come to me that require me to rewrite the whole damn thing... (:

[Tixx]

:)

[kdn102]

So does this mean you can't have a true 'background' process run by the user?

Originally posted by zhamilton1
...My OS does differently. when you run a program it loads the forms into storage memory (not dynamic memory) and then closes the program. You click on button, it runs the program again, this time with the event only (not initialize)...

[DazalC]

I think the answer is no.
but anyway, i think its much better....
its kind of faster if u want to work with for example 3 programs and u r switching from one to another....
Bye!

[iebnn]

An option for developers should be added so that they can run things in the background (if this isn't too much of a difficulty). This would be great to have.

Also.. I'm curious about how exactly this is going to work. Some applications do things in PilotMain that should only be done when the app is first started. Are you sure all (or most) apps will be compatible with this method?

[benixau]

This looks promising - very promising. good luck. From a developer in a C based language (objective-c, you know - the one that isnt yet fully documented)

[zhamilton1]

First of all, it's C++ (:

Let me explain the multi-tasking a bit more...

Current multi-tasking systems have a buffer of cpu commands and run one after each other quickly. Each program adds its share it to the buffer and the CPU eats up the commands one by one. There is no such thing as true multi-tasking unless you have two cpu's and more...

I have taken it to a more higher level. Instead of running a tiny bit of this code and a tiny bit of that code, I run code chunks. This means I also have a "buffer" where I throw not code but entry points. It goes through the list constantly running and removing entry points. Each entry point is of course a PilotMain function. Therefore I use a LocalID of the application database and some information sent to the PilotMain.

Since I use PilotMain through palm's AppCmd's therefore I use a custom AppCmd. I send this to an application and if it reconizes the command then it runs what it has to run, however if it did not recognize the command then instead of running the application through the OS, I run it through PalmOS which means my OS shuts-down and switches to the PalmOS application.

This makes it easy for existing applications to support the OS without forcing all applications to do so.

This is also cleaner since the CPU does not have a load. It's either working or not.

Background tasks are also available. You can put a message (entry point) to be activated at a certain amount of ticks/time.

Each time it runs an entry point it waits for it to finish BEFORE running the next entry point.

I hope this is not too complicated. If any of you have any questions PLEASE dont hesitate to ask. (:

[Alistar]

I am very intrigued by all this. You are certainly taking an interesting approach.

[kdn102]

Actually, I wouldn't mind you getting a bit more technical.  It's been quite a while since my OS class in college, but I did ace it!  The reason I asked about CPU sharing was that in an earlier post you mentioned that it only runs a process when you click on it (see quote).

Maybe I better read through this thread one more time ;)

Originally posted by zhamilton1
...My OS does differently. when you run a program it loads the forms into storage memory (not dynamic memory) and then closes the program. You click on button, it runs the program again, this time with the event only (not initialize), deals with the event and closes the program again. This means that the program is only open when running. This is done using SysAppLaunch function in PalmOS. This means that if you have 30 programs forms running and you use a form, there is NO slow-down at all....

[iebnn]

Ah, I was under the impression that your application would for example allow apps to run in lores mode in a hires device, taking up only part of the screen (without having to exit your launcher). Will you save all of the states of everything so that when you exit the palm app, everything is as it was when you launched it?

[zhamilton1]

First of all, I am happy that you are all interested... (:

The OS only runs the application (through SysAppLaunch) when either the user clicks on something or a timed/idle message is sent. This means that if you dont use it or the application is idle no CPU bandwidth is spent at all!

Each form does not have a bitmap in the backround which means every form displayed takes about less than a 1K. (:

My OS is always-on. This means that if you exit the OS and return to it, it is EXACTLY where it left off. If you soft-reset the device while not in the OS, it will return EXACTLY where it left off. If you soft-reset the device when in the OS, when relaunching it, it will ask if you want to restart the OS. This is for problems. However you can click on No and continue EXACTLY where you left off.

This is done by using storage memory where all chunks are connected to a database. Open databases are stored in dynamic memory but the way the API works is it always checks if it is open and if not it opens it. This allows programmers to not need to know if the db is open or not.

Forms are loaded from a chunk. It includes the form info and all controls and thier states. When you close a form, it saves the chunk to somewhere (where the developer wants to store the form). This means that the form is kept exactly as it was before. Check a checkbox and close the form, when you reopen it, it will be with the checkbox set.

Plug-ins are also stored in the forms. This means any applications connected to a form are also restored when the form is reopened.

If you want to understand the multi-tasking think of the Find in PalmOS. Each time results are displayed, it recalls an application for more results.

The reason I took this approach becauses it was the easiest and most powerfull way I could think of to allow existing programs to be compatible while native programs to take full capability of the OS. This means that one application would work with or without the OS.

Any more questions? (:

[DazalC]

how would u actually install the os...????

[zhamilton1]

The OS consists of a few prc files. just hot-sync them and run the main one. It will start the installation where you choose a few questions. It then builds the main db which includes the OBS (Object Based System). It loads and runs. Note that this is only on the first run. Every time the PalmOS device soft-resets, the OS reinitializes itself to continue just where it left off. However going into or exiting the OS while the device is on is fast. This because there are minimal parts to unload/load. Note that NO dynamic memory is used while the OS is not the active application (from the PalmOS point of view). (:

Uninstall is also easy. Just choose Uninstall when the OS is running... and delete the main prc file. That's all... (:

[iebnn]

Sounds good.

Just make sure you make it as easy as possible for developers to port their existing applications to your OS. Will entire apps need to be recoded to use new APIs, or will your SDK headers be able to possibly replace functions from the Palm header files so that minimal recoding is required (other than including the new launch code handling) for most applications? If it is too difficult to port an application to your OS, I fear that your OS will either not have many applications and not have much developer support, or have new (and inferior) clones of existing apps built by other developers for your OS (especially when it may cost $20-30). I don't see people paying $20-30 for a launcher for applications that do not support your OS. I think they'd only pay that much if either the apps they use or better alternatives are compatible with your OS and are able to make use of the advantages of your OS. Perhaps providing (certain?) developers with free copies of it along with a well-documented SDK will encourage development. Without developer support, you're going to run into a lot of trouble I think.

I'd hate to see a great idea/project like this fail because of poor marketing/support.

[zhamilton1]

If I would of released the OS long ago it would of failed totally. Why? First of all it did not have enough features to even make developers look at it. Second of all, it WAS more of a launcher than an OS. Third, I had not totally formed my ideas.

That is the main reason why I am taking so long. The first dive is the main one. If I fail on the first version, I might never able to recover the OS.

Therefore it is better for me to take as long as I need for the first version. If you look at windowsTM, applications of Windows 2.0 work on WindowsXP. This is because the base is the same even though recoded, the structures are the same.

Therefore I need to make the structuring of my first version the best I can do.

My success IS based on developers. If developers adopt the system so will users. Users need power and will take it if the developers show them to my OS.

I am working very hard lately on how to make it easy to port existing applications. The problem is that PalmOS and my OS are very different. PalmOS works on giving the programmer entire control. PalmOS only gets control when the programmer closes his application. My OS works by giving the programmer's application seconds of control periodicly. Plus how am I going to allow windows of 160x160 size to the OS's design. I would not want applications to be inconsistent. The OS at the moment is designed to allow existing applications to run but include native OS code to ALSO work on my OS. This means that a native application would ALSO work on the current PalmOS structure.

If anyone has any ideas, they would be realy helpfull... (:

The price of the OS is between 10$ and 20$. It will only grow when I can REALY call it a mature OS. I am thinking on how to make it worth while for developers. Any Ideas?

[cbulock]

This sounds very exciting. Maybe I missed where you mentioned this, and was just wanting to have something cleared up. You say you can do windows of 160x160, does this mean you will be able to view multiple apps on the screen at one time? Like four apps on a 320x320 screen?

[zhamilton1]

The OS does not hold 4 apps 1 each corner. Its more like a portable windows DESIGNED for mobile devices (not like Pocket PC...) you have movable forms. So if a form took 320x320, it would take the whole display space on a 320x320 device. As on a 160x160 device it would be sized to be smaller. Therefore the maximum start size for a form is 160x160 - System bar size). The form can be sized to full-screen but the form controls must be able to be in a 160x160 enviroment.

So effectively you could have 4 apps tiled on screen. (:

Note that controls are not just positioned at a point and fixed sized, but rather they have a start and end point. The start point being from a corner (left top, left bottom and so on) and the end point also being from a corner (bottom right, ...) This allows controls to be automaticly sized without any extra coding from the programmer. This is great for lists, edit boxes and tables.
You can also choose between point from current form or from display. This would allow to implement a app where the picture fills the display but only shows the area where the app form is located. (:

Each form has a minimum size which is by default the current form size.

The OS supports overlaying (where one form is on top of another) and I found a unique way to do it. (:

I draw a the form's control/controls on a off-screen window. Then I cut out all the parts which are not on display (which are hidden by other forms on top) and then paste the off-screen window to the display. This avoids flickering and is faster then drawing ALL the windows to an offscreen window and then copying to the display (which is the way I first did it). (:

I am telling all my secrets... FOR ALL YOUR EYES ONLY! (:

[zhamilton1]

I have seen some OS6 pictures on PalmInfoCenter.
Even though they might be not the real screen-shots they might be very close.

First of all, OS6 will be having multi-tasking. We will just have to see how they implement it.

How does OS6 affect my OS. Hardly at all. Face-lift I am giving any way. Redesigned basic applications I have also including.

The only difference apart from supporting underlying features such as enhanced wireless and security is the multi-tasking.

At the moment, The OS DOES HAVE MODAL PROGRESS FORMS.

This means if I am launching a program. It copies it from the card to the main memory. This is a single function and therefore stops Screens from moving forward. Therefore a progress form is used.

This is where OS6 would come in. Instead of having to have a modal progress, this progress could be made modeless by doing the copying in the background. I am working on doing that with OS 3 and up using background tasks but I dont think I will get much out of it.

If I do however figure out the background tasking on preOS6 devices, then OS6 wont be such a big improvement on the OS.

News about the development:
Ran into huge design problems with my OBS system. Working on it full time. The actual GUI has not changed much but has got some few nice GUI add-ons like trails for menu's that allows to see where the menu was displayed from, animations using invert and so on...

I have a "local" friend who is helping me on the project (We might become partners but that's just a wish... (: )
He will make sure I dont make any big changes.

I MUST release my OS BEFORE OS6. Why? Because I must close the inches between the PalmOS and my OS even though my OS works on PalmOS.

I have got rid of scroll bars. Call it good, call it bad but It allows easy of use without taking up space. Using the pen, you can scroll, select and even drag and drop.

I am sure some users will prefer the basic GUI of PalmOS. However I expect to get the power users to my system. I HOPE ! (:

[iebnn]

No scroll bars? Oh you mean just in your operating system?

Hmm...... Wow, I just saw the OS6 stuff. Reading it now. Looks impressive.

If you want to encourage developers:
Give them free copies
Make sample applications
Make a guide on converting their existing applications to your OS (AND provide a template project that works with your event system etc). Have code snippets etc that will help with converting. Try to make this as easy as possible, since most wont do it if it takes too much time.

[napm]

Hi there. For those of you who don't yet know me, I'm working with Zakai on the OS. In recent days we've been working especially hard on the OBS, and have made signifigant progress. I am monitoring Zakai's work and a decision has been made to stick with the current interface design, and not to rethink appearance at a later date. Instead of thinking up new ideas, we will be pressing ahead with fleshing out our (primarily Zakai's) ideas, with a goal of as early a release date as possible.

We have given no dates for a simple reason: we don't yet know the exact time. Zakai has made the decision, and I back him up on this, not to give a target release date until the code is actually completed, and we are well into the testing phase. You may rest assured that we are making daily progress, and are moving forward at a surprising rate.

My job in this project is not actual programming. I will be responsible for tech support, as well as helping Zakai flesh out his ideas and help him to overcome difficulties as we move along. In the development phase I'm acting as more of a consultant, so all programming questions should be addressed to Zakai.

Zakai will probably be posting tomorow with an update on the problems found and solved in the much fabled OBS.

[zhamilton1]

Meet my friend "napm" (User name) he helps me not in the programming as he told you but rather in management and he is doing a good job in that. (:
I met him where I do my public service instead of the army... whoo... (:

I found a limit in my current OBS implementation. I found an alternative but boy is it complicated. The limit is the record limit in a database. That means I could only have a maximum of 64000 objects (excluding forms, controls and other items).

Q: Would it ever get that high? Does anyone have more than 64000 files? Would they never need that amount? This is talking about all "common" cards in thier possetion...

The OBS keeps locally information of "common" cards and keeps temp info on non "common" cards. Common cards are cards you useally keep which is basicly a timer. If not used for a long time, the data is deleted. If used once the timer is reset. (:

My new design does not edit memory in place but rather in dynamic memory. You modify it as much as you want and then write it back. This allows it to be compatible with cards. It also allows encryption and compression capabilites (not in the first version!!!). However I will not implement this if the object limit is reached.

Why dont I span onto multiple databases, because I want the OS to be as clean as possible, At the moment I have cut it down to 2 files the main prc and the main db, nothing else...

The programmers is the key to the OS success, therefore we (me and napm) are thinking on different ways to make it attractive. Thanks 'iebnn' for the ideas. (:

I have got rid of the draw component and merged it into the form component. This is because its useless to have draw functions seperate since forms dont have off-screen windows. Therefore when a draw needs to be done, a message is sent to the application to draw the custom controls. Normal controls are drawn by the system.

I have solved my on-screen graffiti issue. My new way is to only supply the feature when needed for example editing fields. Therefore when you click on a field, it grows and uses the large font (easier for selection). When this happens, any drags are converted to graffiti marks unless all the strokes are in the field itself which then it converts it to selections. if you click outside the field, it grows back to its original size and on-screen graffiti is disabled. What do you think?

The first version will not support backgrounds on forms, but will support a background on the "home" form (desktop in pc-terms).

Screens uses the standard 22x22 icons but does not use the small icons. They are too small to identify and therefore waste space.

There are now 3 main components for me to write:
Chunk Manager - Deals with allocation/free of memory chunks
Form Manager - Deals with all form related functionality including controls.
Message Manager - Deals with multi-tasking and calling functions from outside of the OS (instead of libaries).

I'll be going now.... Keep updated...

[iebnn]

I personally would not like growing and shrinking fields when I'm using an application. Also,, what are you going to do if another control is almost immediately below the field? Programmers aren't going to want to have to code things to move controls around when fields are selected, and it might look funny to have overlapping controls. People already select text within fields of a normal size, and I haven't heard any complains about it, so what is the problem?

Make sure you add a color themes option, people really like to be able to customize things. Have lots of customization options. (think of zlauncher)

What about the hires icons? Please support these.

Have you thought about making a large database and using the file streaming functions etc to code your own database functions that work with over 64k records? Not sure if it would work, but maybe.

And I don't think that users would mind having a few databases created by your OS (seeing as they're not PDBs that they have to install themselves, but are created by your OS in the background. It only affects them if they look at a list of databases on the device, since it would just list a couple extra for your application). You could even make them hidden, so the standard delete etc dialogs dont show the extra databases (but better file managers still will). Just make sure you don't sacrifice usability/speed/etc just so that you can have your OS contained in 2 pdb/prcs, because it's not worth it.

As for graffiti -- what about the shortcut graffiti stroke? People don't do that in fields.

[zhamilton1]

It's really a pop-up, the form does not actually shrink or grow. The idea is that it only grows a bit, you can still click on the control above and below.

I will make the pop up an option. Nearly everything is customizable in the OS. I am personally counting on it to be. If there is a flag, I'll supply some GUI to change it. I don't want any secret options however easter eggs are a favorite... (:

The OS allows to customize colors, save them and beam them to other users easily.

HiRes (known as High Density) Icons are included but only on HiRes devices. There is no point on low-res devices to have HUGE icons. Do you agree?

I'll be working on the chunk system for the next couple of days, and I'll post here when it's finalized. Speed and Space are my requirements for the manager.

I am also working on my menu system. The / stroke might be implemented in a different way on-screen although on the silk graffiti the command stroke will still work.

Thanks iebnn for your input, its been very helpful (:

[iebnn]

Please don't have the popup be on by default then. I really don't think its such a good idea. People are already able to select text alright with the regular font size.

Have some good builtin color themes, since some people aren't as creative with colors or don't feel like taking the time to find a nice combination etc.

I agree on the point of the icons. However, it may be nice to include it as an option?? If the person categorizes their apps a lot, then large icons may be okay.

Is your OS going to support full themes? I think this would be a very nice thing to have, even though it does not add functionality etc. One of the reasons I use zlauncher at the moment is because it supports the background image and has a bunch of nice graphical themes. Being able to skin the entire OS would be really cool. You could do it similarly to zlauncher and have the (large) theme databases be optional, and default to a standard type of theme that is built into the OS for those who want to save space.

I'm sorry but I'm not clear one something -- will a user be able to have multiple windows open at the same time? This could potentially be very useful, for things such as a type of desk accessory (having a calculator open while typing a word document). How about somehow being able to open multiple instances of the same application? This could be useful with browsers, irc clients for multiple servers, etc etc. Also, how are you going to show which form is active? Dim the colors for non-active ones, change the title bar color?? Have an option for either? ;)

As for beaming... are you making it seamless so that a user can use bluetooth, wifi, irda, etc for the same thing depending on which he has available or which he chooses to use? Perhaps check if another bt device is in range, and if not check for irda, etc and if multiple devices are in range, let the user select which to send it to?

How will sending messages to other applications be handled? Just by using some launch code, the same way we've been doing it?

Will app icons be automatically organized or will we be able to choose how they are organized (their order, position on screen)? Are they categorized? Do you use some kind of cascading menu similar to windows?

Will you have support for forms of non-standard dimensions? Will the user be able to resize certain forms that developers add resize support to (for example, in a jpeg viewing application)? This would be useful if you have support for viewing multiple forms at the same time.

How about WAV (or some other kind of format) sounds (or midi to save space) for different events?

What will your OS do with the virtual graffiti? Maybe change it to suit your OS better? Have it so that developers can interface with it (like for an email app that can display notification of new mail in your graffiti area, or possibly the status bar)? You could make the standard one a lot nicer.

Once you get to the stage of developing a music player, I have a lot of ideas for you ;)

[zhamilton1]

First of all, I am very happy to know that you are active in the project. (:

I have had a meeting with napm (wont desclose his name for privacy issues) and we have solved and answered most most of your questions so here I go...

1. Youre right about the popup issue. Users do not like things jumping up all the time. I will not even include the feature in the first version.

2. I am planning to include alot of color themes. Users just like me love customizing and that is the feeling I want to give.

3. I will include the HiRes icons option for low-res devices however the default will be disabled.

4. One of the problems with theming an OS is that things are not fixed like ZLauncher. However things that are fixed like controls looks and the system bar look will be themeable. I will try to make it as easy as possible to add new themes and might even include a few.

5. Yes, Think of the OS just like MS Windows desktop system. You can have multiple windows switch between them in a tap and move them around and size them. Full powered but designed for a small device. (:
Forms have bold title text when active and normal title text when non-active and have color changes.
Multiple instances of forms is also supported.

6. Apart form IRDA support the first version will not include bluetooth, WIFI support yet. However I DO plan to make a big shake with the wireless world by adding peer to peer networking.

7. Applications not only can send messages to each other (using the multi-tasking system) but can plug-in to forms and add functionality easily.

8. As to the way icons are I cant answer that since I have not designed the launcher part just yet, but I will release details when that part is reached. (:

9. Yes, programmers can set forms to be transparent which does slow things down (since the background forms have to be redrawn). If a programmer includes a size control on a form, the size feature is done automaticly.

10. music will not be supported in the first version but rather as a very close update after the first version. The idea is to release the OS with what is neccessary.

11. The first version does not modify the virtual graffiti however will use the extra space for a higher resolution...

I have to go, so I'll visit tommorow... (;

[cbulock]

I love the idea of having resizable windows and such, but how this this work with current applications? Will they have fixed sizes (like 160x160, 240x240, 320x320)?

[zhamilton1]

The OS does not support existing PalmOS applications without modification however it does close the OS to run them as normal therefore not becoming a barrier between new products and old ones.

The way I have designed the size feature depends on how the developer draw his form. Each control can be positioned from one corner and end at another (no size to a control just a start and end point). Each position can be calculated from a certain corner.
Therefore when you size the form the positions of the controls are recalculated.

I have to go now, I hope this answers your question... (:

[iebnn]

Ah I forgot, you're doing away with the virtual graffiti area for applications that run within your OS? What about the FITALY people, or the QWERTY people?

Is your avatar a screenshot of your OS?!!! If so, those are ugly colors ;-/ :P. The scrollbar looks like it takes up a bit too much space though (too wide). And the border on the left and top is larger than the border on the right and bottom.

Thanks for answering my questions and concerns :)
Definitely try to add WAV/etc support to your OS for at least things like events as soon as possible after the first release. Maybe a custom alarm system that supports multiple WAV alarms?

As for the task bar you have.. please let developers interface with it! (something like a systray??)

I'm just so excited about coding for a multi tasking-esque OS, I've got so many ideas.

And I can't wait until I get my damn X-forge SDK for the helix ;/
How about support for rotating the screen? The helix can be used with a rotated screen, and would work nice with your OS.

[iebnn]

Oh and...

please send an SDK and possibly a beta version of your OS to developers as soon as possible. It does not matter if everything is implemented in the OS (obviously it is not ready yet though), just enough so that apps can run and do everything possible. You can send it before finishing the OS interface, themes, colors, etc though. This is critical, since no one will be too excited about downloading it the day it comes out when there is no software for it yet. Give developers a couple months (hopefully), and tell them an approximate time it will be released so they know when they should have their product ready by. Have an NDA so that they cant go around telling people about the approximate date (since it is only a guess) etc.

[napm]

Iebnn: Because of the low resolution required for an avatar, it's hard to tell that those aren't scrollbars, but 'option boxes' (not their real name). When tapped, they pop-up a helpful display for that particular editbox. For example: a 'Date' editbox would pop-up a calender, and a 'Number' editbox would pop-up a numberpad which would include low-level calculation abilities.
Neat, huh?
Just thought I should clear that up.

[napm]

I've finally succeeded in convincing Zakai: Let's give 'em a peek!

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-5-11.gif

Please keep in mind that this is VERY preliminary, and that we would appreciate your input.

[zhamilton1]

Remember to do Save as... and not Open. (:

Please tell us your thoughts...

Answers for iebnn:
Users can use either 320x320 or 320x480 therefore leaving the virtual graffiti or using its space to expand the workspace of the OS.

The wav/midi support will be very close after the first version however beeps are included. (:

And yes, the system bar interface is changable. For example: when a new file is recieved another icon is displayed in the bar. Tap it to view all new recieved files which you can choose to accept or decline multiple files. (:

Gimme, Gimme ideas... PLEASE!!! Yummy!

I dont know about the rotating bit but I will include it if there is need for it (using 480x320 instead of 320x480).

That's all for now... (:

[iebnn]

Wow, a screenshot. I'll comment on that later.

As for virtual graffiti: if you're leaving it in there, please consider making your own. You could do a lot more with it and make it a lot better, since there are probably either a lot of redundancies or some useless things on it. There is a lot of wasted space too. Maybe get rid of it and have it not come up, but have your own little kind of keyboard built into the OS, and have it possible for develoeprs to add keyboards to it (or other input methods). Have it floating so you can move it to wherever on the screen you want, and maybe make it out of vector graphics somehow so you can resize it? Maybe not the last thing though.

Developers will be able to do stuff with the bar at the bottom right?? Please make this flexible!

Please tell me you'll make the buttons in that window skinnable. The buttons, title bar, etc. And maybe even support different color themes for each skin. I think skinners could have a lot of fun with this. It's a lot more interesting than skinning something small and single-shaped like zlauncher.

Maybe have a border (optional? depending on theme?) for text fields? single pixel

I don't like the color choices at all, but that's probably just a test anyway ;/

have it so that you can tap on the speaker icon, and keep holding down and drag up or down to change the volume. or if you let go without moving more than a few pixels, then leave the volume meter open and let them change it (in real time as they move it) without it disappearing until they tap elsewhere. also have a mute option in it

tappingon the battery should also bring up more information. maybe have it so that you hold down to get the info, and it goes away when you stop holding down. or have this optional

maybe an optional analog clock for hires devices? this would give more space on the bar, and looks cool

make the size of the star thing variable depending on the theme

how are you going to fit 10 open window titles into the bar?

icons on the "desktop"?

underlined letters in command buttons so that people can use their keyboard to navigate around. have good keyboard support! see if you can support alt f4 etc

the button for Index is larger than the text field (height)

the border on the left and top is still larger than the border on the right and bottom

have a set of standardized bitmaps for the buttons so if you change themes, it changes them in every app (except for their customized bitmapped buttons of course).

please show me more things in the os in screenshots.

also I'm not sure I like the menu bar button in the top left of each window..... maybe there is a better place?

What about minimize buttons in the title? And a roll-up button so only the title shows (and minimize the width of the window once it is rolled up so only the buttons and title show, and not blank space)?

[iebnn]

napm: very neat.

also, maybe let users put the bar on the top as well. and add bars like in linux.. where you could place little applications made just for the bars, and move them around and choose where to put them on which bars (straight from linux, at least in kde, I havent used linux a whole lot but I liked that a lot.). "Gadget" type things.

[iebnn]

oh and regarding the space issues of extra toolbar type things, maybe have them optionally hide behind windows?

[napm]

Wow! Page six (assuming you're viewing 15 posts per page like me)! Where has the time gone?

This is exactly why I posted the screenshots: user input. Your sugestions all warant discussion, and when Zakai and I meet tomorow we'll discuss all of them.

Iebnn: how do I pronounce your nick? :)

PS: On the 'control bar' on the bottom of the screen, only the active window's title will be visible. We're kicking around the idea of having a menu which displays a list of the open forms appear when you click on the text are on the 'control bar' (where it says 'Controls' at the bottom of the screen.

More screenshots coming in the next few days! Keep in mind that all of these screenshots are preliminary and still subject to change.

[zhamilton1]

Iebnn you amaze me... I never expected so much input... Keep it going... and we might release a real cool OS. (:

Me and napm will talk tomorrow about each feature. I don't know about the gadgets thing and we might exclude that from the first version but that might be the way to go.

Remember that we want to make the first release simple, I have designed the OS to be easily pluggable without the need of developers to open their arms for plug-ins. So even if I designed the system one way, users can easily move things around and design it another way. This is because all forms are cached (they can be removed by the program or when removing the program) and therefore programmers can easily change existing form designs without the applications need to know about it.

Keyboard layouts are included in the first version as a popup. On-screen graffiti is also in the version which takes away the need for virtual graffiti area.

I hope many small utilities will actually be plug-ins to larger ones sort of feeding on the larger creators of the OS.

The system bar can be placed at the top/bottom by simple drag of the system bar.

One of the problem with skinning is that it does not work well on non-fixed objects like buttons and other controls that can be sized. Any ideas?

Developers can add new states on the bottom bar. The default are (left->right):
1. Network Strength
Specifies how strong the connection is depending on the device. Phone/Wifi/Bluetooth will be supported but not in the first version so this will not appear.
2. Sound
Displays the volume level. When tapped on, it displays the audio player which of course has a volume and mute control. (:
3. Battery
Displays the battery level (including charge).
Tap to view battery info and disable battery sucking features like Beaming, Animations and when implemented Phone,Wifi and Bluetooth.
4. Time
Will be available in 24/12 hours and in digital or analog form.

As napm as said the name in the system bar next to the star is the name of the current application. Click to view a list of applications and easily switch between them.

The star icon is used for favorites. Click on the star to display a popup of favorites and easily launch them.

There are icons on the Home (Desktop). The default icons I have not decided yet but you know I will tell you soon... (:

I will add alot of keyboard support. Since I hate using the pen to do everything.

About the minimize, napm and me will discuss that tomorrow.

Do you have a better place for the menu button?

Nice idea of the rollup but too many icons will make the title impossible to use. Any ideas? Sweet spot?

Wow, that's alot to handle... I made it! (:

[napm]

Wow! Starting a post with 'Wow!' seems to have become obligatory! Wow!

I just though I should mention that Even though version 1.00 will be quite limited in extra features, we'll be releasing updates VERY soon after, and frequently. Quick release is a priority, but we will then immediately be tweaking, altering and of course adding features to the OS according to comments and suggestions from users, and especially from developers. Features will be added by the bucketful, and will be added VERY frequently (perhaps even as many as one a week at first, though this will of course depend on coding difficulties).

Hopefully another screenshot tomorrow!

[zhamilton1]

What colors were you thinking of including instead of my colors?

[iebnn]

Originally posted by napm
Wow! Page six (assuming you're viewing 15 posts per page like me)! Where has the time gone?

This is exactly why I posted the screenshots: user input. Your sugestions all warant discussion, and when Zakai and I meet tomorow we'll discuss all of them.

Iebnn: how do I pronounce your nick? :)

PS: On the 'control bar' on the bottom of the screen, only the active window's title will be visible. We're kicking around the idea of having a menu which displays a list of the open forms appear when you click on the text are on the 'control bar' (where it says 'Controls' at the bottom of the screen.

More screenshots coming in the next few days! Keep in mind that all of these screenshots are preliminary and still subject to change.

I would see this as wasted space. What is the point of having the title down there when you already have it on the top of the window? Put something more useful in that area.

You don't pronounce my nickname, you spell it out :)

I'm going to be very busy, developing a big game for the helix and writing lots of software for your OS when it is ready..

[iebnn]

Originally posted by zhamilton1
Iebnn you amaze me... I never expected so much input... Keep it going... and we might release a real cool OS. (:

Me and napm will talk tomorrow about each feature. I don't know about the gadgets thing and we might exclude that from the first version but that might be the way to go.

Remember that we want to make the first release simple, I have designed the OS to be easily pluggable without the need of developers to open their arms for plug-ins. So even if I designed the system one way, users can easily move things around and design it another way. This is because all forms are cached (they can be removed by the program or when removing the program) and therefore programmers can easily change existing form designs without the applications need to know about it.

Keyboard layouts are included in the first version as a popup. On-screen graffiti is also in the version which takes away the need for virtual graffiti area.

I hope many small utilities will actually be plug-ins to larger ones sort of feeding on the larger creators of the OS.

The system bar can be placed at the top/bottom by simple drag of the system bar.

One of the problem with skinning is that it does not work well on non-fixed objects like buttons and other controls that can be sized. Any ideas?

Developers can add new states on the bottom bar. The default are (left->right):
1. Network Strength
Specifies how strong the connection is depending on the device. Phone/Wifi/Bluetooth will be supported but not in the first version so this will not appear.
2. Sound
Displays the volume level. When tapped on, it displays the audio player which of course has a volume and mute control. (:
3. Battery
Displays the battery level (including charge).
Tap to view battery info and disable battery sucking features like Beaming, Animations and when implemented Phone,Wifi and Bluetooth.
4. Time
Will be available in 24/12 hours and in digital or analog form.

As napm as said the name in the system bar next to the star is the name of the current application. Click to view a list of applications and easily switch between them.

The star icon is used for favorites. Click on the star to display a popup of favorites and easily launch them.

There are icons on the Home (Desktop). The default icons I have not decided yet but you know I will tell you soon... (:

I will add alot of keyboard support. Since I hate using the pen to do everything.

About the minimize, napm and me will discuss that tomorrow.

Do you have a better place for the menu button?

Nice idea of the rollup but too many icons will make the title impossible to use. Any ideas? Sweet spot?

Wow, that's alot to handle... I made it! (:

Thanks, I want to help make this the best possible :)

Can developers add keyboard layouts/new input methods? This way companies such as the one that makes FITALY can add it to your OS. And say if someone came up with a new type of graffiti entry, they could make a new input method plugin for your OS.

Windows supports skinning, and has controls that are not fixed size (buttons etc.). How about reading skinning guides for Windows, or downloading a skin and using an application to view all the bitmaps in the skin to see how it is done in windows?

If tapping the volume will bring up the music player, then I would suggest you have it so that if the user drags on the volume indicator, it will only change the volume and will not launch anything. It would be tedious to have to tap it, then tap a whole different area, then drag, then tap something again to close the music player when you just wanted to change the volume quickly. Think of something similar to the windows volume control in the systray, but not with such a large delay when you click and hold on it.

Can you let developers have a small space on the bar to do what ever they want with? Rather than just be able to display a bitmap or something. Have it as like a gadget control, so developers can have more control over their status indicator. For example, a mail icon that would do different things depending on if you held down the stylus on it, or just tapped, or something like that. Also, maybe make them color? Maybe a simple 2 color thing, it could look nicer (maybe just for hires devices? I think the bar needs to be larger on a hires device since everything is a fourth as big on the physical screen.)

re: time: nice

I hope you will do more with the "star" menu than just have a list of favorite apps. Where will you have the options and control panel type thing? Changing the background etc?

about the menu icon: it seems like wasted space to have it on every window. I'm trying to think of a better place, but I do think that having it on every window is just wasting title bar space (you could put another button on the right side if you removed the menu button on the left maybe, like the minimize button). There is no need for a maximize/restore button, the resize one is good enough probably.

As for the roll up button, maybe have it as a double tap on the title? I know double taps arent used much in Palm OS, but I think it could fit here. Maybe have the title bar buttons optional? You can turn on/turn off the minimize one, and have the roll up be either a double tap, or a button on the title bar, or possibly both or neither?

[iebnn]

Originally posted by napm
Wow! Starting a post with 'Wow!' seems to have become obligatory! Wow!

I just though I should mention that Even though version 1.00 will be quite limited in extra features, we'll be releasing updates VERY soon after, and frequently. Quick release is a priority, but we will then immediately be tweaking, altering and of course adding features to the OS according to comments and suggestions from users, and especially from developers. Features will be added by the bucketful, and will be added VERY frequently (perhaps even as many as one a week at first, though this will of course depend on coding difficulties).

Hopefully another screenshot tomorrow!

I would suggest sending a working copy (not necessarily finished though) to developers some time for comments and suggestions, and a well documented SDK before you actually release. I said it earlier, if you release it to prospective customers at the same time as you release it to developers, neither side is going to be as interested as opposed to if you released it to developers earlier so that they had a chance to develop new software for it or get their apps working with it by the time the OS is released. Then others will see all the advantages to using some of the software they already use (which would then be compatible with your OS hopefully) with your OS over using it normally (and theyd see other new software that works a lot nicer with your OS).

[iebnn]

Originally posted by zhamilton1
What colors were you thinking of including instead of my colors?

I'm sorry, I was a too negative in that comment.

The blues are nice, with a little tweaking. It is the cyan-ish lighter blue that I dont think blends well. And the two colored bar below the tabs doesnt looks so great. Either make the tabs a blueish color I think, or dont extend the gray out to the sides of the tab's bottom. I think the star graphic should be made a little nicer as well. Maybe if you get skin support in v1 or if you add it later, someone would like to develop a nice base skin for your OS (there are many talented skinners, and I would think that some would like to try making a nice one for a new OS like this). But have the OS also work without any "skin", and just use flat colors (instead of bitmaps).

[zhamilton1]

I am working a the interface changes.

I'll be posting a draw-shot (not real screen-shot) of the new design.

So far,
I can say that I got rid of the double line on the tab and that
I got rid of the cyan and instead its purple, told by my girlfriend that it looks better (:

I got rid of the star and instead of the star and name, there are the 4 silk buttons usefull for users who are going to not use virtual graffiti or for TungstenT users that have the slider closed.
However much more things can be done like dragging the find window will zoom the selected area.

Where the state icons are they are now in color depending on thier state: green - good, yellow - ok and red - bad.

The time has also been color enhanced.

I have thinking on have a top bar as well which by the way both are toggable and can be switched between top/bottom.

See you next week...

[X Destruction]

There's a DA audio adjust function built into the os5 clies, ctrl+a, maybe you could use that for volume control?

[napm]

Zakai and I have been sick of just refering to the project as 'the OS' and 'the launcher', so I've made the decision to give a 'code name' for the project :D. Zakai concurs.
Drum roll...
The worlds first multitasking operating system for Palm powered devices is hereby named: S.OS :p
We'll release a final name for S.OS about a month before release.

On to old business:

X Destruction: I'm afraid we didn't quite understand your post... could you be a little more explanatory?

iebnn: Your ideas on the interface are excellent. We are currently redesigning the UI and screenshots will be posted sometime next week, probably by Tuesday, maybe earlier.

New business:

Zakai (zhamilton1) doesn't post on Saturdays. This is due to the Jewish Sabbath. From friday at noon Israel time (New York time + 7:00 hours, or GMT+2:00) is the absolute latest he can post on a weekend. New posts come on the following Sunday. I, on the other hand, am as secular as can be, so you can expect posts from me on 7 days a week, 365 days a year, usually. The only exception to this policy is Leap Years, which annoy us all.

[napm]

X Destruction:
are you saying that if a person hits 'ctrl+A' on this device an audio popup appears? if so, we don't need to use that. S.OS (the new name for our system) is an operating system, not a launcher, so we will be using our own hotkeys. Also, not all devices have this hotkey installed by default in the Palm OS. On the other hand, shortcuts (like 'ctrl+A') will be fully configurable. in other words, you could set 'ctrl+A' to open the Audio form, but that wouldn't necessarily be the default.

Thanks for your input!

[iebnn]

As for keyboard shortcuts..

it would be nice if you supported many of the oens that are standard in some desktop operating systems. Everyone is familiar with Alt F4, Alt+Tab (this would be great to have.. make sure you bring up the little modal dialog with icons for each app open, and let the person scroll through them by still holding down alt and pressing tab multiple times), etc. Oh, and something similar to both the WindowsKey+M (minimizes all windows) and WindowsKey+D (toggles the desktop.. if you press it once, everything is minimized. if you press it another time, the apps that werent minimized are restored, so it's like a toggle). Let us change these too please :) And how about letting developers add plugins so that the user can define a new keyboard shortcut that will be assigned to the plugin (for example, a developer of a mail app could let users hit, say, Ctrl+M and their app would check for new mail, regardless of what app you're currently in). This could be something for a later release.

Being able to increase or decrease the volume through hotkeys would be nice.

Please support Tab like windows supports Tab. Don't make us hit ctrl (or is it Fn?) + Tab to insert a tab into a multiline field. If it's a single line field, the user probably doesnt need to insert a tab, and the tab button will go to the next field. If they do want to insert a tab into a single line field, I cant remember what it would be, something like shift tab or ctrl tab. Windows handles this nicely.

[napm]

Hotkeys (keyboard shortcuts) will be fully configurable (by open applications and by users). Defaults will be similar to Windows (alt+F4, alt+tab, etc.)
I, using Windows ME, was unable to get ctrl+tab and shift+tab to insert a tab into a single line editbox. Shift+tab does a backwards tab switch between controls, and ctrl+tab seems to provide the same function as plain tab alone. 'Tab' sounds funny if you say it too many times.

We're currently working on making the interface (be it hotkeys, the GUI, or where you tap to maximize, minimize, etc.) more intuitive, meaning easy to learn.

Screenshots will be posted on Sunday or Monday.

[iebnn]

Great

[zhamilton1]

On thursday night, I was working hard to define my new idea for the GUI. You will probably be getting some "draw-shots" tonight.

I have fixed a few things:
1. The menu icon has been removed from the title of each form and been moved to replace the star icon. When tapped it will show the menu of the active form, like the start menu but more application specific items.

2. Tap and hold to display a list of active applications including hidden applications. Tap to activate an application. If the application has multiple forms click on the arrow next to the application item and tap the desired form (only on-screen forms are shown)

3. The state bar has been improved giving up to 8 state icons on a 160x160 resolution. When you tap on a state it shows a popup describing the state in a few words. Either tap on Details or tap and hold on the state icon to quickly get to the state details (in one tap (: )

4. The time is at the right bottom. Tap to view the next appointment and the current date. Just like the state area, either tap on Details or tap and hold on the time to view the date book of the current day.

5. The theme has been changed and will probably be changed a few times. Suggestions for colors are always welcome (:

6. The palmtop (desktop) shows two icons: My Palm and Trash. My Palm shows the items of the palm such as the cards, settings and programs. Trash is just like the windows recycle bin.

7. To access silk buttons home, find and favorites (menu has a button always shown in the bottom left) tap on the menu icon and the state area will be changed to a toolbar of main actions such as home, find and favourites. Both the active and passive state icons are developer customizable.

Enjoy!

[napm]

Screenshot time again!

Here's S.OS in it's latest reincarnation... as a carnation!
http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/petal.gif
http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/sl-5-16.gif


The first image has icons, two open forms and the new UI. Note the thicker border on the active window, the RED low battery, the GREEN sound indicator (meaning sound is on), the YELLOW reception indicator, meaning that reception is medium (cell-phone reception, etc.), and the GREEN infra-red, bluetooth & WiFi icon (the left-most state icon), indicating that IRDA/bluetooth/WiFi is receiving or has received items.

The 'Received' window indicates how many items have been received over IRDA/bluetooth/WiFi.


ALL OF THESE SCREENSHOTS ARE PRELIMINARY, AND THE FINISHED PRODUCT MAY BE DIFFERENT.



Tell us what we did wrong. It's the only way we'll learn.

Blame Zakai.

[napm]

This beauty here is the desktop, no windows open, a few state icons in the control bar (at the bottom of the screen), the icons (22x22 pixels each), and a kickass background, taken from thematrix.com.

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/sl-5-17-matrix.gif

ALL OF THESE SCREENSHOTS ARE PRELIMINARY, AND THE FINISHED PRODUCT MAY BE DIFFERENT.



Tell us what we did wrong. It's the only way we'll learn.

[iebnn]

so cool looking now :) here are my latest complaints ;P

I'm not sure I like the new menu button thing. When I want to launch an app, it's going to get very tiring to have to tap, hold and wait for the menu to come up. I like to be able to just tap quickly and have something I want to happen happen. That area is also an important UI area, and having just a button for the app menu seems odd. Also, what about menus that have mutliple categories with subitems etc? Does your OS support that?

I just got a good idea for window minimizing. How about being able to tap on the title bar, and drag it down to the task bar at the bottom, and let go and it will save the coordinates of the window for BEFORE you began moving it. Then it will minimize the window. This can be fast to do, and lets you get rid of a minimize button from the window. But of course make this an option, and also make the minimize button an option (but I think the drag-to-minimize method should be a default). I think I've read something about OSX working similarly to this? Im not sure, I havent really used it.

Move the blue title area up one pixel, and expand it left and right by one pixel.

Get a computer artist person to find a good default color theme :) I think it needs some work. Ask someone maybe from here who has done a lot of themes possibly. I think theyll do it for free.

Consider making a rounded rectangle around the tabs.. err, make the bottom half of the gray rectangle the same as the top half. This might look nice. Keep the line beneath them.

The X button needs some work, it looks a little cartoony. ;/

Consider getting rid of one pixel of border (the gray pixel)? It seems like a lot of border area. Once adding bitmap theme support, let the skinner choose things such as border size.

Can I move the icons on the desktop just like in windows? Also, make the click area be a rectangle even if the icon has transparent areas (unlike how it is in mac os, or at least older version of mac os. this was very annoying). Oh yes, and support transparent areas in the icons. and make them part of the theme eventually :) or make it so you can also change them to a new bitmap. make a certain shade of pink or something be the transparent color. also optionally have the BG color for the label text be transparent

maybe move the status indicators one pixel closer to each other? also they seem to not be touching the top, but touching the bottom.

the j in the tabs looks like an i

let us change fonts for different UI elements like in windows

this would be huge, but how about looking into support for truetype or other types of windows/mac os fonts? This is something PPC has but not Palm, and is a very large thing. Probably not for v1 though.

the 10 box in the received dialog is too tall. Why the blue line? shouldnt close be on the left? hmm, not sure

write guides for UI element size, position, etc for the SDK documentation. try to stay similar to palm zen

well im out of ideas right now
more screenshots please!

[zhamilton1]

You may have not understood the menu icon...

When you tap on it, it shows the current form's menu.
When you tap & HOLD then it shows a list of applications running (to switch between applications).

The menu system allows to have one level deep of menu's just like PalmOS however allows to have more items in the root level since the menu is displayed verticaly and not horizontaly like PalmOS.

The categories support multi-levels, I will supply screen shots on that when I get round to designing it.

I like the idea of form minimizing (:
However the user can also click & hold to hide the form.

The title is a control and therefore movable by the developer. Therefore the control is 2 pixels away from each corner just like other controls.

The rest of the pixel changes will be implemented. (:

I will get rid of the extra gray border. Active windows have a double blue border and a bold title.

Icons have transparent areas using white (this is what most icons use).

The colors are totally customizable.

I dont know about the fonts idea... I'll check it out... (:

At the moment Close is always on the right...

The blue line is a link to some help info about the word "recieved".

Yep, The Zen Of Screens will be released and be prepared for some mind-bogeling guidelines when I release it with the SDK. The SDK will be free... (:

I realy feel that interface wise we are improving, I know we will get it right in the end... (:

Oh I just forgot... Yes the icons will be draggable even from transparent areas.

I am working on the animations layer design which allows dragging icons, windows or any other moving animations quickly and I am trying to shorten the memory usage.

I will fix up the pixel things and post a draw-shot probably wednesday or thursday (:

By the way, Thanks so much iebnn for the input, it realy is helping the OS moving forward (:

[iebnn]

I've got loads of emails to answer so I dont have the time for a full reply, but here's a bit of it

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I think that having to tap and hold to see the list of open apps is even worse than having to tap and hold to see apps to launch. People are going to be switching between apps either about the same or more than they will use the apps menu. It all depends on the situation, what app they're using, etc. But if you want to say switch among 3 apps as you do work, it's going to be slow/annoying to have to tap and hold first. It seems that each should have their own screen space. I'm thinking about this one. Notice in windows and mac os though, it is very quick to change an app (either click on the taskbar app icon/title in windows, or click the finder icon, and drag down to the app you want to switch to).

Clicking and holding to hide a form might not be a good idea. They could be trying to move the form a little bit, but then all of a sudden it minimizes, maybe that isn't a problem though.. but.. it just seems like a lot of "tapping and holding" to do simple things. Holding down on a title bar in order to minimize it seems somewhat counterintuitive.

Are you sure the title should be a control? It might be better to have it automatically drawn when the developer sets a title property for the window/form. This way you're not going to have apps with slightly differently positioned title bars. What is the advantage to having it as a control? The existing palm os doesnt do that, windows doesnt do that, I'm guessing mac os/linux don't either.

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh or too critical, I'm just brainstorming. Trying to find any problems in any aspect so that it might be improved.

Rather than doubling the border for active windows, maybe just change the color of one line of pixels in the border or something? It seems odd to resize windows when a user taps on one.

White shouldn't be a transparent color, since it is used a lot in icons. I believe palm os actually uses a certain index in the palette. Either do that or have it an obscure color. Making white transparent doesnt really make sense I think

I meant the graphic for the close button, not its position, sorry :P

Please release the SDK and an early copy of your OS (development version?) to developers as early as you can before releasing the OS. Developers shouldnt care about whether or not the OS is entirely finished, so long as we are able to begin porting apps/writing new apps for your OS before it is launched.

Is it possible to hires devices to use larger icons? Those icons would be kinda small on a hires screen. And hires icons look a lot nicer :)

Have an option to either show a black/inverted border as you drag a window/icon/etc, or to keep showing the form moving as you drag. It might be a bit choppy on older devices.

well it looks like I typed a full reply

you're welcome, I'm just telling you what I think would be the perfect PDA OS for myself :) I plan on using it when it's complete, so I like to help make it better :)

[zhamilton1]

It does kill most of my interface ideas, but your points are right!
If it aint broke dont fix it.

I will implement the title as part of the form and not as a control. Consistency is more important then flexibility. (:

I will redesign the interface over the weekend and give you a new screenshot sunday/monday... I hope... (:

ALL your points are correct, and I will try to solve.

I am having problems with the OBS since I made it complicated programming and user ease of use. I will post the new design when it's ready.

I realy feel that each design is better than the previous which means that we (me and napm) are getting closer to the end. However where the end is, is another matter... (:

Keep up with the brain-storming. You are changing nearly everything, however so far you have changed them for the best. Keep it on!

P.S. I am glad to know that you want to use the OS

[]{night[]wl]

I for one will LOVE to try it out and if it works good will definitly be a perminant part of my Clie

[iebnn]

Great..

I feel like I've been a bit nitpicky or demanding of changes from your ideas, but I'm glad it's been helpful.

[zhamilton1]

Here it is:

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/Sl-5-24.bmp

Enjoy! (:

Remember to do save as...

It shows the browser (launcher) display. The browser is one of the main components of the OS since it shows objects and applications that view the object. This makes a consistent system and therefore easy to use. You can always open a view in a new form.

I'll write more about this later...

[napm]

100 posts. Should I be excited?


We're working hard... give us feedback on the screenshot Zakai posted.

[IB Michael]

This looks exciting Z. I can't imagine the moutain of head aches involved, but I'm very much looking forward to your OS's release. I don't see a price tag of $30.00 being so unbearable if the holes in the Palm OS can be filled, as you say. Looking forward, Mike.

[napm]

Excellent.
We're now waiting for feedback on the screenshots posted. We would appreciate any input you could give us.

New screenshots (expansions of the same design last posted) should arrive tomorow.

[Alistar]

All the developments are quite interesting and the points that are made have been quite valid.
However I have just one question

What does the program size look to be, it may have been mentioned, but I have been following this since page 2 and I haven't seen it.

[IB Michael]

Hi Z. The link in your post #167 seems to be dead. Any suggestions? I'd really like to see it. Thanks, Mike.

[cbulock]

Originally posted by IB Michael
Hi Z. The link in your post #167 seems to be dead. Any suggestions? I'd really like to see it. Thanks, Mike.

You have to either copy and paste the address into your address bar, or right-click the link and do a Save As.

Geocities along with many other free hosts don't allow direct links to images. :(

[napm]

Although the the final program size is as of yet unknown, it'll probably be less the 500k, most likely MUCH less (of course including bitmaps etc.)

[Alistar]

Sounds good.
I eagerly await more developments.

[napm]

Development has all but paused as we await commants on our interface design. Anything?

[Alistar]

The layout looks good. It doesn't appear to be too cluttered and except for you colour choices I only have one other comment.
The icon bar on the main form looks fairly large, could the icons be made a little smaller and the bar shrunk a bit. Unfortunately that would mean that the arrows would have to be a little smaller as well which I don't believe would be as practical.
What excatly do the arrows do? Could they be implemented somewhere else or are they necessary to have there in order to be conveniently functional.

[zhamilton1]

Yes, I will shrink the bar. The up/down buttons are scroll buttons. To make it easy for the user to scroll, just drag the pen on the view to scroll. Drag to the left to scroll to the left, drag to the top to scroll to the top and so on...

napm wanted scroll buttons for users who would not know about this way of scrolling. I will try a view layouts for the scroll buttons for example having them one button next to each other instead of one on top of the other. (:

If you dont like the colors... Any suggestions?

I'm glad you like the layout... me and Napm have worked long to squeeze much functionality in without being too complicated or cluttered. (:

The OBS is improving on its design...
I have cleaned out the way developers will connect to collections of objects and it looks good.
I have also added great support for meta data both by developers and users. Developers can use meta data to describe what the object is and users can use meta data to add hints to thier work to remember them.

I am working on improving the way I draw forms to the display. Asking the application to redraw itself anytime anything happens is horrible and I am trying to find a way to create storage based off-screen windows... Does anyone know how to do that???

I will be posting next week the changes in the design plus you will get to see a few sketch designs of the built-in applications in the OS.

[Alistar]

Colours are just subjective, so I won't get much into that, I just like a more earthy colour scheme, light yellow, beige and orange, with a few dark contrasts around the edges.

Otherwise, yea I really like the new layout, I find it a big improvement over what your earlier screen shots suggested.

About off screen storage, sorry I don't know much about programming, but heres an idea. Could you do something like layers, where the background say will stay contant and you only need to redraw active components. Redraw only those parts that change. Say have buttons and interactive components as top layer, where items will change the most, have a middle layer for views that will change, but are not directly interactive, rather change based on something else and have a bottom layer that will almost never change.
I don't how feasible this is, or if it could be easily integrated into what you already have.

[musk]

Wow, what an ambitious project!

The 5/24 screenshot is a great improvement. I like the colors as they are, with the possible exception of the Green menu button in lower left (make it dark blue to even out the bottom bar). That said, I think the blue/purple form background should be optional, as part of a skin perhaps. As nice as the colorful approach can be, I prefer generic gray-and-white or blue-and-white themes for day-to-day business.

I first agreed with the talk of making the icon bar on the main form smaller, but then I realized that is a 160x160 image. I'm thinking the current buttons would be just barely big enough to tap on a hires device. Please make sure they remain useable. One of the problems with the Clie hires (if you could really call it a problem) is that I'm often forced to chose between "too small" and "normal size".

Wow again. Keep up the good work!

[IB Michael]

Hey Cameron.... Thanks for the advice. I'm so green..... I shouldn't even be reading this advanced stuff but it IS darned interesting. Good day.

[zhamilton1]

First of all, I am happy that many of you are interested in this project... I hope I make a mark... (:

I have finally given up on the background... It's WHITE! (:

The menu icon is now blue as requested and looks better and clearer...

About the High-Resolution, I have not decided yet... I will have to see how I will deal with it when I get there... On one hand I wanted to use the resolution like windows does, but that would be useless with a pen, therefore I am thinking of going inbetween... I dont know, any ideas?

Alistar thanks for the layer Idea... I have been thinking about it all weekend and this is my result: Enjoy! (:
Beforehand I would redraw on-display parts each time. This means calling the application to redraw itself if any change occurs (this is how windows does it). The problem with this was that calling the application alot would slow it down. On the same side, I had a problem with off-screen windows since you cannot allocate more than 4 8bit windows. To fix this I embraced your layer idea.
Each form can have a set of layers. Layer 0 is the active layer where controls can be put to get pen/key input. Lower layers (+1) do not accept pen input. Layers can be attached to the form or to the display. If attached to the display, its controls are positioned by the display so the form can be moved around while the controls do not... (:
Each layer is made up of 80x80 bitmaps. When you need to edit a layer, a certain area is locked, copied to dynamic memory where it can be edited and drawn to the display and then copied back to storage. When drawing through the Layer API this is done automaticly. Just draw to the layer and the API will deal with the locking of areas.
Animations do not rewrite the layer back to storage memory since there is no need to...

I'll post some new screenshots tommorow... (:

Keep up with the ideas...

[iebnn]

Sorry I had forgotten about this thread for a bit, I'll post a long reply sometime soon :)

[napm]

beautiful.
Sorry for the screenshot delay... coming soon.

[iebnn]

btw I love that new .bmp screenshot that was posted. the new border is much nicer. I really like it. I have more comments and criticism etc. but that'll be later sorry :)

[zhamilton1]

Here they are... THE Screenshots (: Enjoy!

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-1a.bmp
http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-1b.bmp

Remember to do save as... (:

One shows the contacts (people) view and the other shows the view in a small window while "jack nobody" info at the front.

I have made the white background as promised. I have also made the buttons more edgy and the control bar as well, since in my opinion looks much better especially on the control bar.

A little tech info:
I have finally fixed all the storage problems with a preference system which is a bit like the registry but each application has its own workspace. This means that each application can store a tree of information instead of single preferences. This also allows a more sorted out preference database since structures are easier to deal with.

iebnn, we were a little worried... but I am glad you are back and cant wait for you to say that everything is wrong... (;

The scroll buttons are grayed out if out of use.

With my new layer system, users will able to have virtually endless size of forms (realy up to UInt32 * UInt32) this will help for future palm's since little window code will need to be changed to deal with the higher resolutions.

P.S. Jack nobody does not exist... I just could not think of enemy to release his information although this was a second try... I nearly released my information as part of the Screenshot... Thank napm for saving me... (:

[iebnn]

It's great!

just a couple quick comments
maybe decrease the button border down a pixel for the thick border on the right and bottom? they look a little big, like they're too tall if thought of from the 3d perspective the border is supposed to give. The button in the inactive form in the background looks odd for some reason. I'm not sure I like having the up/down arrows standard on every screen, it's a really slow/inaccurate way of scrolling that I'll never use when there's another better alternative (such as dragging the pen on the form). I know that not all users will think/know of this, but please try to think of something better than those up/down arrows. I'm not sure. I think I like having a solid line separating the window area from the bar area at the bottom :) also, the menu icon looks like it's chopped off at the bottom. Try making it look sharper without the blury "glowing" border. Just looked at the 2nd bitmap - having that type of 4 way arrow seems very easy to miss and hit the wrong arrow. This is also a lot of screen space. The status indicators dont look like theyre vertically centered. Is it possible to either maximize windows somehow or have windows without the border on the left, right, and bottom? If an app is running "full screen", there shouldn't be the borders other than for the title. It looks like it's a dialog. What is the two windows icon on the bottom right? If that's for apps, try switching its position with the menu icon. I thing a button for launching apps deserves that important area of the screen.

Just random thoughts, trying to think of anything I can :) I'll have more later

[Alistar]

I agree with iebnn, I don't really like the scroll arrow system either. I would probably never use it. I never use the scroll arrows now, I either drag the actual scroll bar to its location or us the jog dial.
I like the white background now, everything doesn't look so blue anymore.
Removing the border for full screen apps is fairly important I think, even on hires displays those few pixels are noticable size differences.
I am not so sure I agree with you contacts display. I pretty much use mine for quick reference, look at the name then the number displayed beside it, I don't often actually open the contact unless I need a full mailing address or something. The built-in datebook and third party replacements allow for this quick reference without having to acutally open the contact. Will there be a similar view with yours.
I like the 3D looking buttons. (You will be able to change the colors right?)
That two windows icon on the bottome right looks like it will be for switching between active apps, if so, I like the placement.

[zhamilton1]

Hi everyone,

First of all thanks for the great comments... It realy moves this project forward since it gives me input if I am doing the right thing... (:

I will think of an alternative scroll system... I did not like the scroll buttons either but thought that maybe users would not know how to scroll.

I will remove the border on full-screen windows, by just expanding thier border outside the workspace. This would still allow to have the borders but just would not be visible to the user. Only the form's contents would be visible (including the title of course).

I liked the 3D buttons so does Alistar... I will make it optional but I think it gives it a nicer look. And yes, the buttons are color customizable just as the rest of the OS.

The browser you see is in icon view. Users will able to replace the basic icon with a special icon (maybe a 22x22 face or a 44x44 face on hi-res). There are other views such as list and detail. The default for the people application is detail view where the name and number is displayed. The columns are customizable and sizeable. In list view, you can have a few columns of names. All depending on user's prefs.

By default when you click on a contact, it opens up in the existing browser view however if you make it open in a new form (by tap and hold and Open in new view) it will allow you to keep it untill you dont need it otherwise you can click on back to return to the detail view. This fits in to the OBS system where everything is made of views. You can make it by default open in a new view in the menu.

I will try an alternative menu icon... (:

I prefered the app icon next to the time, sort of mac style. I think it should stay there like Alistar likes... it sounds more familier.

The status icons are centered... but there is a line around it to ephasize its position just like the menu icon. Each icon is 14x14 size.

The people application will be heavily intergrated like the rest of the built-in applications in the OS... HOWEVER any 3rd party application can replace it with its own. This gives users a usable system without killing room for improvement.

I'll check in later and see your comments... I will work on the changes tonight if possible... (:

Thanks iebnn and alistar alot! (:

[napm]

The scroll arrows are now eliminated.
The original plan was to have a pen-drag system AND an arrow system for the less experienced users.
This has been an issue of some internal dispute. I am now convinced, however, that a pen drag virtual desktop type arrangement will not only work, but will be so incredible, that it will be praised as a deity by rednecks the world over.

Moving right along...

Other responses will arrive tomorow, when I'm not so tired :)

later, all.

[iebnn]

just a quick comment: have a "tip" balloon maybe the first time someone uses the OS or something like that that tells them that they can scroll by dragging on the form. put scrollbars in the OS though for apps that for example have a text field taking up the entire screen, or something similar where there is no or very little non-used screen space

[iebnn]

also, by just expanding the window some, well, if the developer put a control at 0,0 would it overlap the border? if it does, this is standard to palm os and should be kept this way. And also, if it does, that means that it's going to make it that much more annoying to port existing apps to your OS, since all controls are going to have to be moved over some (since developers are used to placing a control right at the 0 x position on full screen forms).

Yes I like the 3d buttons as well, but I believe that the 3d border part is too large on the right and bottom. Try decreasing it by a pixel.

[iebnn]

Oh, how about support for making the screen size larger than the hardware, and being able to somehow scroll the viewable area? Maybe keep the bar at the bottom visible at all times though? Have you used mIRC before? Maybe have a setting that if you move a window half off screen, you can somehow scroll the viewable area to the right. mIRC works like this with its child windows

[zhamilton1]

iebnn, great stuf! Here is my reply.. (:

I will be having a Tutorial when the user first runs Screens and will be able to be run in the future. Infact when the OS is installed it has to create the OBS and prefs and cache the file system. This all takes a long time. To shorten this time, the tutorial is run while the creation of the prefs is taking place (thanks to my messages system (: ). IF the user skips the tutorial he will just have to wait for the OS to finish the prefs.

Scroll bars will be included but will be discouraged since they are a waste of space even in full-screen.
Even though the form has 0,0 to some size... when placing controls they are placed in the form area which means you cannot place a control in the title. This also means that the area starts from 0,0 and therefore will not have the problem you mentioned.

About the buttons... The extra pixel gives it a shadow effect. It will be optional. I tend to like shadows... (:

Nice idea about the workspace area. I will make it that you can have a huge workspace that is customizable by the user. This will also allow multiple users in the OS since each user can have one or more workspaces and switch between them instantly.
To scroll, users drag the app icon (the window on window icon) to the workspace where 4 big see through arrows are displayed. Just drag the app menu on one of the arrows to scroll in that direction. This would very easy to use and instant. I think this would be better than any small scroll bar idea. What do you think? (:

Keep on with the ideas and comments... it moves this project along and gives me a reason to make it go forward... (:

[Alistar]

The virtual desktop is intriguing, I could see myself using it.
And with your layer system I think it would be easy to have the taskbar follow the viewable area.
Do your windows have full screen buttons like windows does? To automatically take up the size of the screen.

[zhamilton1]

Yes, but not as a button... (:
Just tap on the title without drag to maximize/restore a form. This is instead of having an extra button. The idea was to have minimize on one side, close on the other and maximize in the middle (the whole title area) so pen mistakes would not close the form when you wanted to minimize or minimize the form when you wanted to maximize.

[Alistar]

Sounds good.

[napm]

About the app icon dragging feature mentioned by Zakai, it's similar to the 'autoscroll' system in Internet Explorer, except on two axis. It's very user friendly and intuitive.

[iebnn]

After thinking about it some more, and reading alistar's description of it as a "virtual desktop", I've come to the conclusion that having something similar to linux's virtual desktops instead of the scrolling system would be better. Instead of having a giant workspace, have multiple workspaces. Or have both -- workspaces larger than the screen, and you can switch between them (2 or 4 or something, or a customizable amount).

And about the button borders: sorry, it looked like a 2 pixel thick 3d border at first :) I like it, but what about a 3d button that is being viewed directly from above, with an equal 3d border with different colors depending on the side?

I'm not sure about the idea of having the border not be inside the area of the window that the developer has control over. Palm OS and Windows I know both have the border be part of the form where the developer can place controls. I think it avoids confusion or mistakes with the size of non-full screen windows. Maybe it would be best to stay with what developers are used to with regards to this aspect.

[zhamilton1]

As I wrote before, I will allow users to both scroll and switch between workspaces... (:

I dont exactly understand what you mean by the button borders... please explain to me what you mean... (:

What about full-screen forms that dont have borders? If I do as you say, then on full-screen forms it will display the controls to indent which will waste space.

I am working on the preference system... so far so good... (:

I am also thinking about the module design system where applications are made up of little modules. This would decrease the amount of rewritten code. I'll write more about this when the idea gets more concrete. (:

Also a biggie question:
What is better? Users buying the OS, or the OS being freeware however developers pay me a licence fee when they release an application that costs money let's say 50c per user that buys thier application I get. This would make the OS reach a wider community plus developers gain from this since thier application will apeal to a wider audience. What do you think? (:

[Alistar]

Well, I don't know how much developer support you would see if they are required to pay a license fee to support the OS. Plus that would only appeal to the those that were developing only for your OS.
I would recommending not chargining the developers as it could hinder application development. Also since your OS will allow traditional palm program to work there would be even less motivation to try and optimize it for your OS when they could simply make it for one platform (palm) and still have it run.
I believe charging a flat rate to the consumer would be better.
Also, I believe you are a little optimistic about how quickly your new OS will catch on. Admittedly it does sound impressive, but most people will wait for the power users to try it out and sing its praises before they invest in it. Also I would recommend to try and have a couple of third party apps lined up with developers that will release at the roughly the same time. Even little apps as long as they take advantage of the new system. That way people can see how optimized apps and normal apps will run as well as encouraging future development rather than hoping it catches on.

[cbulock]

I agree that the licensing system would be a bad idea. At first this OS is going to have a chicken and egg problem. Few people will want to buy it and first because there will be few apps to take advantage, and few developers will want to take time to support it since few users will benefit. I think if licensing was a requirement, most developers will competly ignore optimizing apps for the OS since they can make regular Palm apps with no fees. Then, even if it is free to download, no one will want it since there will be no apps for it.

I think whats going to have to happen is there will need to be a killer app made that will really show off what this OS can do, then the users will come. After that, it will be easy to convince developers and users both that this OS is worthwhile.

[napm]

On licensing, agreed.
Only 46% of software in the USA is warez, anyway, so assuming popularity, profits will be good enough. This hasn't been decided yet, but I know which way I'm leaning.

About the chicken and the egg thing, we will be releasing the os with some standard apps, but like any revolutionary app (as we like to think of ourselves), it will take time to take off. Our first goal will be to get power users to use the OS (as Alistar said), touting it's usefulness in reviews, etc.

Again, thanks for all the help!

[iebnn]

After thinking about it some more, and reading alistar's description of it as a "virtual desktop", I've come to the conclusion that having something similar to linux's virtual desktops instead of the scrolling system would be better. Instead of having a giant workspace, have multiple workspaces. Or have both -- workspaces larger than the screen, and you can switch between them (2 or 4 or something, or a customizable amount).

And about the button borders: sorry, it looked like a 2 pixel thick 3d border at first :) I like it, but what about a 3d button that is being viewed directly from above, with an equal 3d border with different colors depending on the side?

I'm not sure about the idea of having the border not be inside the area of the window that the developer has control over. Palm OS and Windows I know both have the border be part of the form where the developer can place controls. I think it avoids confusion or mistakes with the size of non-full screen windows. Maybe it would be best to stay with what developers are used to with regards to this aspect.

[zhamilton1]

Iebnn, you have posted the same post twice... Any reason? (:

[iebnn]

sorry ive been having problems with my internet and thought that the first time I posted it it didn't send (apparently it did), and I tried resending it a couple days later. I thought I already posted something about it but I guess that never sent? huh, I have no idea. I can't remember what I said in that message ;/

[zhamilton1]

Thinking hard about form management I came up this morning with the following idea: Joined forms
Remember BEOS with its short titles which were great for tiling. Well I thought to take this futher. If you drag a form onto a another title, it will join that form. What do I mean?
It will add a tab like title to the existing form. The active form always has its title tab on the left. The close will be moved to the left and will only close the active form. However the minimize will move over to the far right of the form and will minimize the joined group of forms instead of just the active form. Visually I will make that understandable. To split a form just activate it (make it the active form tab) click and hold and drag it to a new location. Joined sets of forms share the same size and position. This I think will reduce desktop clutter alot. What do you think? (:
Users could use this and open for example: a few documents at once. (:

I am realy improving the OBS basing it alot on the shadows implementation of OS/2. I will release more information about this when it is more stable in its design.

[iebnn]

Interesting idea. I'll think about it. :)

[zhamilton1]

Does the OS realy need minimize AND close? My OS does not have any app running issues... it can run more than 50 apps at a time (as long as they are not active) without any lags.
No other OS can do that because of thier implementation. Is there a need for a minimize?

I like the PocketPC 2002 idea where close actually minimizes but the only problem with that was that the OS would slow down with every app loaded. My OS does not have that issue, is there still a need for a close then?

Napm told me that users would hate to know that close actually minimizes but is it that bad? Wouldn't it be easier for the user to understand. You could make it that the list is limited to 5 closed apps which means that if you closed a 6th then the first closed app is removed from the list... What do you all think?

[iebnn]

I really don't think users would like it if you went with the PPC way even if your OS doesn't slow down with each new app open.

1. They complained loads about it in PPC, many people are going to be ignorant and assume that it is a problem with your OS. Although they may be dumb, they're (some of) the ones paying you for your work
2. People like to have control over what happens. I dont think people are going to like knowing that the OS "secretly" minimizes apps when you click on a Close button. And doing things like closing an app every time the user minimizes a 6th app only makes this situation worse. I really don't think people would like the OS doing that behind their backs.
3. It lets you unclutter the alt-tab dialog and the currently open apps menu. Yes only allowing 5 minimized apps would do this, but that's messy/annoying.

[Alistar]

I agree with iebnn. I don't think mimicing the PPC system is the way to go. I have heard several complaints from people when they thought they had closed the app when in fact it really only minimized.
I would like to the minimize and close button kept altogether. Especially since you can resize the windows of the active form. It can look cluttered when you can see a bunch of different forms in the background. Minimizing them can reduce 'desktop' clutter. And I would like a close button. With the standard palm os the apps close when you go back to the launcher. If there is no close button how would the apps close when you no longer want them up?

[zhamilton1]

Youre all three right (napm told me also not to do it (: ). I just had a problem before with 2 buttons - minimize and close.

Here is my latest tapping features as follows:
I have reshaped the grouped forms idea.
When you drag a form title next to another form title it will merge the to keeping the size of the form which the form was dropped on - the target form.
If you drag an inactive title it moves the group of forms not just the active form. If you drag an active form in a group it drags only the active form.

If you tap on an inactive title, it activates the title.

If you tap an active title, it rolls it up. What do I mean?
It hides all the form's contents leaving just the title. Usefull to quickly see a form underneath without the need of minimizing and then reshowing the form. Just tap on the title again to roll the form back down (expect an animation for this (: )

If you tap on the size control it maximizes the form. Click again to restore. Drag to resize the form. If the form is full-screen you can resize it from its full-screen position.

To minimize, close, maximize or size you can also use the menu by clicking on the left of an active title (a menu icon). A popup is displayed with the form and group actions.

What do you think?

[Alistar]

Can you make the roll-up feature a double-tap.
I can see accidently tapping it and having it roll up on me.
With a double-tap you would eliminate those accidental taps.

The menu idea on the form title sound good, but for some reason I seem to have reservations as I read over it. I would need to see a screenshot of how it looks and fits into everything else.

[zhamilton1]

Yes, I could do that... (:
But dont people hate double-clicking?

I'll post a screenshot next week to show all the changes, so you can tell me what I did right and what I did wrong... (:

[iebnn]

You shouldn't have to tap twice to do something in Palm OS that could just take one tap, such as minimizing, closing, etc. These are definitely operations that people are going to be using often and will want to have done quickly. I don't think a menu is good for these operations.

Don't let us move forms when they're maximized, unless we resize them or restore them.

[Alistar]

I don't want to have to double click to minimize. I want to have to double click to roll the window into the title. I believe that is how I read your feature. Like how mac windows can roll into their title.
So, yes I do want one click minimize, but I see the roll-up feature as something different than minimize. Or make the roll-up feature another button. As I said I can see myself accidently tapping the title and having it roll-up on me when I don't want it to.
Of course I might have misinterpreted your idea.

[zhamilton1]

I will try my best to implement most of the operations (close,minimize,maximize,rollup...) a single click away. The problem is screen estate. If I add 3-4 buttons on each title its going to shorten the title name. I dont think 'Con' will be understandable as 'Contacts'. I could make the icons disapear if the title is not active or the user is moving the title, but it would still take alot of room for the active title.

Another idea would be to make the icons transparent to the title text. This means you could still tap on the left to minimize and the right to close without losing valuable space. I could make it that the icons would be thinner but the icons would be understandable but to tap on them would require to tap on the text. I think this would be a good idea since you get what you want on screen and functionality, but the question is would users understand this? (:

Also what do you think about the grouping of forms into tabs design? (:

[Alistar]

Well, how about making the form actions customizable.
The user could choose how to implement the various actions. They choose to use icons for close or minimize, and single or double tap to roll up the form. Have a global forms property that controls this. I don't think it should be to hard to set it up that way.

I am interested in the next set of screenshots. Once I can see how these title functions will be implemented I can more intelligently comment on them. So don't necessarily take my current comments about it to heart.

[zhamilton1]

It's not a question if there is an option to change something... the question is always what should be the default? (:

I will be working on the Screenshots tonight through the weekend.

One of the changes untill now are that forms have shadows giving it the feel that it is above. However shadows are only available on OS 3.5 (I need to read the pixels (: )

I need to finish designing the grouping of forms... So far it looks good but is missing a close/minimize set of buttons. I'll see what I come up with... (:

The GUI has evolved alot thanks to you users... (: And hopefully you will get the dream GUI youv'e been waiting for... (I know I am waiting...) (:

About the grouping of forms:
One of the uses for a developer is that he can implement tab look for let's say properties/settings but users can disconnect forms to deal with two sets of options at once. It gives the possibility for power without taking up space to exploit it. (:

[musk]

Just thought I'd add my latest $0.02. I tend to agree with the double-tap for screen roll-up. The main reason is to minimize the number of buttons required on the title bar. It's a balancing act--how many buttons on the title is too cluttered vs. menus and other slower means to do it. Also, if the buttons get too small (as they well could on a hires display), they could get easier to "miss". I'd really be frustrated if I accidently hit close instead of maximize with any regularity. The same goes for the roll-up, if it were single-tap.

I think 3 buttons is probably optimal for the efficient use of title bar space. If I were to vote presently on my prefered 3 buttons, I would vote for 1. Menu (on the left side), 2. Minimize (on the right), and 3. Maximize (on the right). Although just about every GUI has a close button nowadays, I still think Win 3.x, MWM, etc. had the functionality right when only 3 buttons were available.

I'm not opposed to your idea of making icons (I took that to mean title buttons) transparent, but it doesn't sound like a good default to me. You said it yourself--"would users understand this?" As others have pointed out, screenshots will help clarify this stuff, as it's sometimes difficult to "see" otherwise.

[zhamilton1]

Here is the new hard work design I worked on the weekend...

www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-15a.bmp
www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-15b.bmp

Remember to do save as... because of yahoo servers (:

The first one is a form where it shows my new control set (although some are not there) you can see how the borders smooth out with adding a bit of gray (I think this is called antialiasing... (: )

I followed your idea musk but decided that a menu is not needed since all functionality is built into the title and a menu would not be practicle like others have said... (:

The second bitmap is where I took the existing full-screen and cut of the borders, added the new title (with my joined forms idea) showed the new button style which I realy like even if you will all probably think it sucks! (:

I could of added colors to the title buttons but found it would not work well with any colors apart from white. Plain sometimes is good and I think here is a good case of it. However if you do have a color suggestion I will try it out... (:

Enjoy... and PLEASE comment!

[cbulock]

I'm really liking how this looks now. Seems like a lot of function without too much clutter. Can't wait to see what this will look like in hi-res. As for details that could be improved, not sure, I'll leave that to iebnn and Alistar, they seem to know what they are talking about. :)

[iebnn]

I hope that the button sizes are going to be increased on hires displays.. right?

[zhamilton1]

Everything will be relative... It will be bigger in pixels (:

I am working hard on an easy solution (if any) for resolution problems... I will release the info when its born... (:

iebnn what do you think about the rest of it? (:

At the moment, you dont have to deal with any changes for high-res apart from bitmaps. This is because each control set has a full resolutions which makes it the OS's need for change instead of the developers.

What do you think about the antialiasing? I thought it would be nicer than palmOS's controls.

The list control does not have a scroll bar... instead it works like nokia menu's. You click on an item to scroll it to the center, however if the list supports single tap then users scroll by dragging the pen on the list up/down/left/right to scroll. The arrows on the right show if there is anything to scroll.
When you scroll, a percentage shows how much you are scrolling and how many items there are. By making the list in focus, graffiti does auto-select and new line does a tap.

I am working on a new input called KeyWrite where you use the hard keys to type on screen. When you start KeyWrite a circle is displayed on screen showing a different letter in each direction. Use the center dial (or address/todo for left/right) to go to that letter. Enter or datebook/memo chooses the letter. To start KeyWrite press up/down together. What do you think?
I will release some screenshots with this input method nearby... (:

[iebnn]

Alright, some quick comments:

I think the new button border is better (in that it's 3d from top-down instead of slightly to the side), but the border seems too big now and appears sorta blury. Change the colors some, maybe remove a line of border, dunno, work with it some.

It seems that the form tabs in each window are going to get very clutted with smaller windows and on lores devices.

that's all for now

[iebnn]

Scrolling by dragging can work really well, but when you have a huge document or something and you want to be able to quickly jump to different portions of it (near the top, near the bottom, etc) then dragging is going to take forever. I use the click-middle-mouse-button-and-drag on my PC with IE a lot, but if it's a really big page, I'll use the scrollbar because it's a whole lot faster.

[zhamilton1]

First of all thanks for the comments, I wait for them each time... (:

The idea was for them to be blurry. it is done by the gray border. I think it makes it look better than just lines. Don't you? Remember that it can be optional, but the question of course is include by default?

The tabs are designed to remove clutter. Most forms will be on thier own however users can group forms to remove the clutter, not to add clutter. If there are too many tabs then a drop down is displayed on the right.

You are right about the scrolling however the drag is meant for quick scroll and not for big jumps. Lists which have alot of information use a percentage button. When you press the percentage, it displays a scrollbar where you can drag. Big jumps are more rare than dragging up/down therefore it can be a click away instead of always there and also percentages give a better feel where you are in the document then scroll bars... (:

[Alistar]

Excellent. It looks really nice.

I agree with iebnn, the buttons looks blurry and I find it kind of hard on the eyes. I think it has to do with the grey colour. You can still get the 3D look but I would suggest trying a slightly darker colour. I ran an example here:
http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=591&papass=&sort=1&thecat=
I think you could darken the other borders as well.

The percentage scroll idea sounds great, I don't see a problem with use for that.

The buttons on the title bar look good, I think that is probably the best implementation.

I like the tab idea to be able to group similar forms, like in your one screenshot where you attach the actual contact to the contact list. That will be very useful for quick reference multi-tasking. Although I would suggest that you limit the number of tabs. On such small screens the tabs become useless if you can only see the minimize, etc. icons and one letter of the form.

[zhamilton1]

I'll work on the blurry part... (;

The active tab is never shortened... If a title has to be shortened because the form size is too small, then it is removed and a drop down on the right is shown instead. This requires an extra tap but allows to still see grouped forms. However I do expect the form grouping to be mostly used on higher resolutions or full-screen forms. If the active tab is longer than the form then it is shortened.

I will post a screenshot next week (I am working on this harder... (: )

I have been going over the underlying components (form, messages and prefs) with my father each night and results look good. So far we finished the prefs implementation and messages design, so I'll start coding that next week... FINALY!!!

The prefs allows applications to store prefs globally (per application) and locally (per instance) easily in a tree design.
I am trying to make it as easiest as possible.

The messages gives the multi-tasking aspect to the OS.

Ive yet to do the form design, but once all components have been coded you will finally be able to see REAL screenshots... (:
However I am expecting bugs, so dont kill me to quickly... (:

Thanks for the comments... MORE MORE!!! (:

[Alistar]

Your tab implementation sounds great. I was going to suggest something like that, but I didn't know how easy it would be to do so I figured I would wait and see. And it is good to hear that the active title will not be shortened (stupid windows taskbar).

[hansschmucker]

Here's a little idea on the skin:
http://hansschmucker.free.fr/clie/HamiltonOS_skin8b.gif

It's simple, it's unpolished, it was created using only functions of PSP which are available in Paintbrush as well, It has a really strange dithered gradient (Actually, it isn't. I just made a row with every 2nd pixel darked, then every 4th .. and the same for the other side), It's 100% Handcroftet and what might become important: It's 8bit natively.
It's just a puny little attempt at doing this but if there's anything you would consider usefull: Take it!

[hansschmucker]

OK, so here's that same shot again in HR+ , the way I would love to see it (not so much the design, but how a 160x160 was resized to fit a different resolution):
http://hansschmucker.free.fr/clie/HamiltonOS_skin8b_HRplus.gif

That's about the only thing I'm really missing on PalmOS: A descent form resize method, which allows for real use of a higher resolution instead of just scaling each element x2. Just look at Windows or KDE (I don't know how much is X' work and how much is KDE. No matter)!

The image was scaled x2 but with a HR border. The checkboxes look a little lost but that's the way Windows would probably do it to stretch it to meet the bitmaps height. The buttons have been resized to match the new window width and the list has been resized to fill up all empty space left.

[zhamilton1]

I dont know what to say... Oh my god! (:

I realy like alot of it... and it will probably give me a new base for thinking of new ideas... I have been searching for new interfaces all over the net (of all OS's) to find new ideas and your's might be the one to allow me to base a few ideas on... (:

I love the dithered gradient however you can see that its dithered which might make it feel a little old.
8bit displays are hardly around now (apart from the IIIc) therefore there is no point sticking with a 8bit pixels. That is why I did the standard gradient. Note that the gradient is API based and not a bitmap (although it can be (: ).

I like the style though and the green and the way you implemented it might let me go of my blue days. It looks like a force to recon with! (:

I'm guesing that on the control bar with the title as a tooltip (which by the way can be normal text since only one tooltip is displayed at any time (: ) is where you can switch between apps. I never thought of just using small icons however could users identify them. One of the reasons I dont display small icons in the OS is they are just to small to identify. Any thoughts?

I do resize the workspace like you say but each control which uses bitmaps has a different bitmap for each resolution.
This allows users to choose between a hi-res interface (palm OS) or huge workspace interface (window's style) (:

About the small icons, I could make users who can't identify icons have to use tooltips by tap and hold. This would be good for HiRes+ displays which could use the extra space to show apps.
If there were more apps then the control bar could handle then users can use the app icon.

Also the state icons could be connected like in the PalmOS 6 screenshot. This way when the user would click on any state icon a form with all state icons info each having its own section would be displayed. This would remove the need to have the icons wide enough, however app icons would need to all be 14x14

Give me a few days to come up with my radicly new screenshot... (:
Thanks hansschmucker! (:

[hansschmucker]

Glad you like it

About 16bit: I was thinking about speed, not compatibility. I've seen some terribly slow 16bit apps and I would hate to see HamiltonOS suffer from this disease as well. Just out of curiosity: Does PalmOS use a 555 RGB, 565 RGB or a 5551 RGBA?

About GradientAPI: Glad to hear it as Gradients can really improve the overall appearence of a OS and if it's fast can even act as great looking shadows.

About the tooltip/tiny icons: I just hate to waste valuable screen real-estate. And if you can really handle that many apps at once, then we need a way to show a lot of them at once. Tiny icons just look like the way to go especially on 160x160 devices. Of course we need some nice looking app icons to make this work! But generally, an icon shadow/outer bevel can dramatically improve quality and visibility of an icon, with the tooltip giving valuable information if you're uncertain. It works on Windows as well: Just press alt-tab and you'll seee what I mean.

About form resize: Great! But I would recommend building your own image resize API as many bitmaps for many resolutions mean a lot of space wasted! It would be great if people could just include one hires bitmap and you're API would build lowres bitmaps while loading.

About connected state icons. I haven't seen any PalmOS6 screenshots yet but generally it's a good idea to use a stylus-over function, determining if the user was still over the icon when he released the stylus (Just closing the info pop-up form) or moved up to the popup form to adjust some settings. I'll try to build a picture, so you can see what I mean.

Anyway, keep up the great work!!!

Hans

[hansschmucker]

And a small sugestion for input: Since it's possible to move the graffiti area anywhere you want to (As Graf anywhere proved to us) It would be nice if it would only pop up after you clicked on a form input element. Just like a large tooltip.

[zhamilton1]

I see your point about the 16bit/8bit, I'll be testing speeds so that this wont be a problem. I am still designing the form manager. Once this has been designed (with my father) then I will able to answer the 16/8 bit part since it depends if I am doing bitmap copying which bit counts or if I am doing dynamic redraw which then it does not matter. I'll let you know (:

I dont know what the RGB numbers mean, so I can't answer that... (:

Let me spice up your design over this comming weekend and I'll see what I get... (:

About the icons/tooltips part, you are absolutely right, I'll see what I can do... (:

The problem with sizing mechanizim's is that quality is lost on low-res devices worse than a bitmap designed for it. I don't know yet what I will do about that.

I dont understand the stylus over function so a screenshot would realy help.

About the input methods, that is exactly what happens. If you drag from the system bar to the top of the display, it will show the last input method. The input methods are popup's which means just click outside of it to close it. Very easy to use and I think reduces clutter.

I am getting to the look of windows start menu but different since there is no need for a menu icon... just tap on the active app icon in the control bar to display its menu. Tap an inactive app icon to activate that application/form.

The control menu could show things like Sleep, recent activated applications, favourites, find and other common things. (: I just hope microsoft does not sue me... (: Is the start menu copyrighted (not in design but in functionality) (:

If the app icon list gets to full just drag to scroll. The active app is always in the middle (scrolls to the center). This reduces even the need for drag to scroll. (:

Tap and hold an icon to see a tooltip. Let go, to activate the app or drag up to cancel.

When you activate an app, its tooltip is automaticly shown for 3 seconds (dont worry, you can change it (: )

Grouped forms have a single entry in the control bar which reduces even more icon clutter.

Going even futher... when the tooltip is shown, it is shown with the app's full icon (22x22). Then there would be no problem at all.

When you drag after tap & hold, the app icon list does not scroll but shows the tooltip for the icon under the pen, usefull for searching an app... just drag and notice the big app icon you need. I call that great interfacing... (:

Not to forget that this OS is still on a Palm and therefore most used functions are contacts, appointments and notes, therefore I will give them a single click need. I know I would like to jot something quick but not want to have to start pressing hardware buttons or doing more than a few clicks to do basic things. Its a PIM OS not a desktop OS. (:

I'll speek more of my ideas when my screenshot next week will come out... untill then, bring your extra ideas on... (: The quicker the better, dont hold back. There is no such thing as a bad idea, just not a usefull one (:

Thanks hansschmucker, stay active! (;

[Alistar]

Wow
Way to hijack the project there Hans

I mean that in a positive way, so don't think I am being bitter or anything.

Anyway for ideas, I thought that that toolbar on the bottom would be used to show open apps like Hans there has shown in his test screenshot. Especially on hi-res screen where there should be quite a bit of space there.

I have some ideas, I just don't have the time to explain them at the moment. I'll come back a bit later.

[Alistar]

Well here's a few suggestions/questions.

My browser has an open in new windows and an open in new tab window. So for example in Address book you can click and hold, in which a pop-up window will come up and offer and offer to open the contact already grouped to the current form. Where just tapping it once would open it normally.

Can you build in a character map that is available to all apps that have input. I find it hard to remember all the grafitti shortcuts for special characters.

[hansschmucker]

Don't worry Alistar... if I thought your post to be offensive I wouldn't have survived out here that long. And you wouldn't have to worry about me anyway, since I couldn't replace you even if I wanted to... you just know so much more about this project then I do... I just happened to see the screenshots and thought "Hey, that looks promising!"

About your last comment: It's suprisingly close to what I was trying to say above... only that I was talking about the icons in the taskbar! And I've finally done that screenshot. The audio prefs window doesn't look very good, but I hope you'll get my point... I just couldn't be bothered to create a new font and new sliders.

http://hansschmucker.free.fr/clie/_HamiltonOS_Audiotooltip.gif

[mattyj2002]

Where can i download this Launcher?

It looks sooooooooo cool! I gotta try it out!

[hansschmucker]

To make a long story short:
a) It's not really a launcher as it has it's own application format
b) It's still in development, no download yet

[hansschmucker]

Oh and Zakai:
The 555/565/5551 was refering to the bits per color: Usually we refer to colors as 24bit 888RGB (Red:0-255,Green:0-255,Blue:0-255) or 32bit 8888RGBA (Red:0-255,Green:0-255,Blue:0-255,Alpha:0-255)

But with 16bit you can't do that you either end up with a 1bit alpha channel or a more precise green channel

[Alistar]

Wow, I really like your latest screenshots Hans.
I really like those tooltip dialogs.

[zhamilton1]

I was working nearly all night on modifying your design... (:

So far, I made some icons in the task bar, showing which form/form group is active. Tap on the active icon to show the menu for the form. (:

This leaves the OS menu as a start menu like menu. I am working on it and so far it looks large (like WinXP) but is totally different.

At the bottom is a find box. just start writing the object name/tags and after a second (yeah, customizable) it will automaticly search for results and display it in the OS menu itself which by the way is a popup.

Note: Popup's are not displayed in the task bar.

I removed the sound icon, I figured that users are not changing sound all the time (and if they are, then launch the volume control app and keep it running (: ) so therefore it can be moved to the OS menu.

At the moment only battery and network (if available) are in the state bar. (:

I made the task, state and time bars look like tabs, and it looks cool (:

I have realy liked the dithering and patern and somewhat starting to prefer it to a gradient, more cleaner... (:

I like the tooltip idea, since most users will be checking the battery state, not checking what battery type and extra info, however they can... (:

I'll do the same tooltip for the time. I realy like the drag idea... keep those ideas comming hansschmucker (:

Alistar, I will create your char map app and nice idea for the browser... idea accepted... (:

I am very tempted to make form backgrounds the green that hansschmucker has submited... save me from green (:

Expect a few redesigned screenshots next week... (:

Why am so happy (: all the time, because this OS might not be out yet but its getting more promising thanks to all you users... If the OS does come out (of course it will (: ) then it will be all your own gain... (:

[Alistar]

I think you could keep the volume control on the taskbar by default. I have an NX and I would remove it as I my device already has a volume control on the statusbar, but I know there would be several people who would like to have it there to quickly launch it.

[zhamilton1]

It is still a tap away, the volume is in the actual OS menu. State bar icons should be icons that change (battery, bandwidth and so on) and not passive icons.

When you tap on the OS icon, one of the parts on the OS menu is a volume percentage. Why a percentage? It takes less space, is more clear than a slider and yes most of the time users will be checking thier volume and not changing it. If they want to do multiple volume changes they should launch the volume control. This removes clutter but gives power to the user. (:

[hansschmucker]

Okay, now a little suggestion which would definately usefull, but on the other hand increase the learning curve:

How about making a scroll knob? I've seen that on a few Win applications and while it takes some getting used to, it's small and still quite precise.

It workes like this. You have a button, you click on it and then drag the stylus around it. Like a small clock. 1 means top the document, 6 means center and 11 end.

I've mad some little example gfx, but the color choice isn't exactly right and it's just a tiny bit too small. you can barely see the difference, but I'm too lazy to redo it now... and it's just an idea anyhow not a final design

http://hansschmucker.free.fr/clie/HamiltonOS_scrollknob.gif

[zhamilton1]

The OS is to give power to the users who want it, however learning curve is important but since most humans have used a stereo device before they have turned a volume control. Which makes it sound ok... I'll make it big enough to tap but instead of having a visual change I could have the percentage next to it. This would be visually OK and users could tell where they are without having to lift the pen.

If however space is no problem (which it might not be a problem (: ) then I will put a slider (and percentage indicator).

I will post my screenshot on sunday/monday... so stay tuned for a buffed up theme but then again you might say NO! OLD IS BETTER! (:

The name of the OS I will release finally in the OS menu screenshot (: Hope you like it (:

[iebnn]

I've got loads to write but it's getting late here and almost dinner time ;( I would be posting here a lot more often if I were still in America and not Japan, since I'm also writing a (too) detailed journal of what goes on here and that takes up most of the time that I'm using my laptop here :/ Just don't think I've given up on this, I've got lots of ideas/input :) Soon... soon..

[iebnn]

Originally posted by Alistar
I think you could keep the volume control on the taskbar by default. I have an NX and I would remove it as I my device already has a volume control on the statusbar, but I know there would be several people who would like to have it there to quickly launch it.

I think that status bar is going away :)


Also, I have a concern. Since you're using all standard Palm APIs with one-prc-for-all-devices, isn't screen blitting going to be terribly slow? What will game developers do? How about detecting the device/os version during install, and installing a blitting function selected out of a bunch of pre coded ones, coded in ASM or ARM or something? Sorry my english is failing me, too much Japanese on my mind.

[zhamilton1]

First of all grab these... (:

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-22.bmp
http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-6-22a.bmp

I have redesigned alot of it and new ideas have sprung up in the last few days... (:

Yes, the status bar is going away, instead the normal icons are state icons. for example if you have a download happening the icon itself will show how far has passed with a thin line. Other apps such as playing apps can use the icons to show play/stop modes.

The all in one prc is to provide compatibility. I have decided that functionality is more important than speed. why? Because plug-ins can always make certain functions faster by coding them directly to the CPU or whatever. This allows game developers to not worry at all. Thier game will run on any device... maybe slowly but then the compatibility idea is out of the window.

I have decided that the minimum PalmOS required is OS 3.5
Why? Because there are so many functions I need which I cant code directly (or dont want to). If any of you want you can later write a plug-in to support existing PalmOS's by going straight to hardware.

This method allows a one box fits all but room for advancements. This eases developers who do not need to know which device they are developing for and for users who dont need to worry about frustrating requirements. (:

It would take me along time to explain the screenshot so if there is anything you dont understand ask away... (:

P.S. The name of the OS is... "Screens"

[Alistar]

First
I would put the memory indicator in the same area as the battery.
The battery has in its own section on the task bar and I think the memory should go beside it.

I like the new green theme. I am not much of a green guy but I like it better than the old theme.

It looks like you did away with the shadow on the buttons?

[zhamilton1]

Yep, The shadows did not work well and the green patern works much better at making the buttons stick out... (:

Not everyone deals with memory all the time. If they are, they launch the app and it stays in the task bar untill not needed. However batery is in every palm and is contantly changing. People do not manipulate files so much that they need to know how many kb's are flying however people do need to know what level thier battery is.

Appliations does not neccesary mean that they have to be normal forms. They can be popup's. This way when you click on the app icon in the task bar a popup shows. Forms can also be sticky which means that by default they are popup's but users can keep them alive even when they loose focus. (:

[hansschmucker]

I love the new design =)

But I've been thinking about an entirely different problem: Standard PalmOS apps.

Their are two ways I could think of to handle those
a)Capture Palm Form API commands and translate those. This would be great, however only about 30% of all Palm apps use ONLY those to handle the interface... so it would be complicated and probably buggy. A bit like Windowblinds for W32
b)Suspend Screens to storage and relaunch on app exit. Much more stable, but not nearly as nice.

A second problem would be handling files. Explorer-style:
I think the best idea would be to sort all files into groups. Those groups coud for example a common creator id. Imagine an explorer-like folder view. You see the display names of launchable programs (Plus an 'orphan' folder for files which doesn't seem to belong to any program), with a little plus next to every program. You tap on the name: It launches the application. You tap on the plus and all files associated with this program show up. A long tap on a file/group brings up a menue to rename/delete/move to card...

Which brings up the next topic: Will there be an 'official' structure for launching apps off exttention cards. The Palm way of copying it over and deleting it afterwards clearly isn't too good. But code is usually small. What makes applications big are resources. So will there be official apis to load resources from card?

Keep up the good work
Hans

P.S. will there be a 'complex settings editor', much like regedit? There are lots of settings which probably won't matter to 80% of all users, but might be important for the rest. (How big is the title bar? Should the taskbar dissapear automaticall? Should it be on top maybe? ........)

[Alistar]

Well the way I understand how it works.
For switching apps, the OS here closes the app while keeping the form details up, then when you switch back to it` it 'relaunches' it and starts active processing again.

The file manager you suggest sounds a lot like MSGate, from what I remember MSGate used to organize files by creator id and associated app. Just a comment on some possible origins.

As for launching apps off the expansion card I think that the copying and deleting is probably the easiest. I can't really think of another way for it work, other than a r/w PiDirect or something.

[hansschmucker]

I never used MSGate, so I honestly don't know it just seamed like a reasonable way to sort files on PalmOS

About launch from card: How about creating a tiny buffer and only copying over (at runtime) what's requested. That's the way it works on most systems

[zhamilton1]

Screens deals with PalmOS apps by closing Screens and launching the PalmOS app. WHen the user taps the app icon, Screens is relaunched. The way Screens is designed allows users to quickly switch between Screens and a PalmOS app without any wait time. (:

The OBS includes what you've said but gives more...
Not only are the collections a way to organize objects but a way to get to the same object from a few collections. For example: the data file object is available also in the card collection and also in the application collection. To browse the application collection, just click and hold an app and choose Browse. This allows data to be organized much easier since data can be accessed from anywhere.

PalmOS apps will be copied into ram however ScreensOS native apps are handled differently. Only the code part is copied to ram while the resources stay in the card. Also if the handheld is low on ram, the code is deleted from ram even if the app is running. When the app is used again (tap on a button etc...) the code is copied back to ram. This results in an effecient method where resources are copied on a need basis and users and developers do not have to worry about fetching/removing records/resources.
There will be an API to deal with this easily.

There is the Prefs editor. All applications including Screens store thier settings in a tree style list. This will make it easy for developers to store settings while advanced users can tweak the system. However most prefs will have some sort of interface to deal with it.

The titlebar is 16 pixels height... (:
I dont think the taskbar should disapear automaticly, however there will be an option that only the S icon will be displayed and when tapped it will show the Screens menu and Screens taskbar as a popup. (:

Keep comming with the questions and most important new ideas... hansschmucker thanks for the radical design... you are moving this OS is the right direction (:

iebnn, I miss your long lists of ideas... bring them back soon (:

And alistar, thanks for the ideas here and then (:

[Alistar]

I try to help when I can.

But as neither a developer nor an active graphic designer I am merely here for personal interface ideas.

[zhamilton1]

That's also what I need... Personal interface ideas... Lots of them... (:

Do you like the Screens central (the menu)?

I need those thoughts to be able to confirm and move on or fix things that need fixing... (:

I am still working on my drawing techniques just last night I found out that it takes around 4 seconds to draw 160x160 pixel by pixel. I have got to speed this up or find another way... (:

[Alistar]

I really like the the way Screens is looking.

Here's a screen shot I modified to show the battery and memory together. I figure I'd just throw it in so people can see what it looks like.

http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=601

[zhamilton1]

I still stand on my point that the memory should not be in the state area. (:

Any operations that change memory for example moving/copying/deleting objects/data show info on how much is left, so there is no problem there... (:

[iebnn]

quick idea: screens might not be the best name. if someone tries searching for that on google, they're going to get a lot of irrelevant stuff, even if including things like "palm" and "launcher"

and about games: the standard apis are WAY too slow for just about any type of game aside from very simple ones. I'll have a huge list soon.... soon....

[zhamilton1]

Do you know of any custom drawing functions I could use.
Basicly I need two main functions GetPixel and SetPixel which accept either a RGB/IndexedColorType. This would supply most of the functionality that Screens needs.

For google purposes they called Search for ScreensOS (together).
Also I found out that ScreensOS is not registered... (:

I will be working on ways to improve the current speed of the PalmOS functions (by effecient code) but untill that any other way would be nice.

At the moment its either allocating a bitmap for each form (PalmOS does that) or rendering forms which is slower but saves space. Which to go for? The difference is that the higher the resolution the slower the drawing gets unless I use bitmaps which take alot of space.

I will be doing some testing tonight... Please help me on this issue which at the moment is THE PROBLEM!

Question: Do you like the new interface and even though it might not be the best would it be ok for the OS, or wait for a new design or changes? I NEED the approval if you users like it. Speak now or forever hold your tongue! (:

[iebnn]

Then always refer to it as ScreensOS and not Screens. And never Screens OS.

Take a look at the Razor! library and talk with the guy who created it. He has lots of fast drawing routines etc. Basically you're going to need to detect what device it is and when you install, install the blitter that belongs to that device (dont check every time you blit obviously). Search google for razor palm sourceforge and you'll find it :)

The interface is getting a lot better, but I still say that you should get an artist to come up with the colors/graphics/etc. instead of relying on yourself and us (programmers etc).

I'm not sure. I'd have to see numbers regarding the form drawing, so if it's not too much work I'd recommend you try both ways. Or talk to someone who's more experienced with that.

I've still got loads of comments but no time ;/ bye

[Alistar]

Ok, ok, you win, no memory by the battery :D

Well, the layout for ScreensOS is nice so I don't think I wouldn't really change anything there.
For icons and graphics I just assumed you would get better ones once you were getting ready to release and that these ones were just there as basically placeholders for the time being.

Do you plan to eventually make it hi-res?

[zhamilton1]

At the moment I will use the basic PalmOS functions. I can always increase its speed with plug-ins but the development should not depend on an external amount of code. I have looked at Razor and it's a gaming enviroment, I have read a bit about it but still stand on the idea that Screens should be fast without any accellerators. I will be doing a bit more research tonight, so I'll let you know what I got. (:

I dont know of any artists but if any of you are take the screenshots and show me what youv'e got and I might include on of your designs as the default theme.

Apart from bitmaps is the design and position of controls OK? Theming can always be done at a later stage.

[iebnn]

Razor is a gaming environment, but you can use it for basically anything (commercial products) without paying any royalties or anything, just giving the creator a free copy. It has a lot of good, fast code for drawing to the screen under different devices and color depths. Yes Screens might be fast enough for normal apps, but no game developer is going to want to develop for Screens if they're limited to Palm OS drawing routines (which are way too slow to be used for games).

Maybe ask in the wallpaper/skinning board for people to help with the default theme.

[zhamilton1]

Thanks for the post idea... DONE! (:

You are correct and giving the designers of razor a free copy is not my problem... I will check out more about the razor API... (:

At the moment I have solved everything in the drawing parts apart from transparency issues... (: But I will find a solution soon... (:

[hansschmucker]

Just do it the DS way: Allow applications to specify an area the Screens will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, redraw. This way programmers can get the coordinates for this area from screener, but then use direct screen access (or at least direct buffer access, don't forget to return the screen buffer adress in memory along with the fields coordinates) to draw the games, making them much faster

[hansschmucker]

BTW.... in order to not slow down such apps I would recommend a yes/no type overlay. In other words: If the app is active, then no other will be able to put something in front of the noredarw area. This way you don't have to process the buffer content again

[zhamilton1]

Games could detect if they are the current form. If they are they could take control over it. If not, then the game would pause which you would want if you need to quickly jump to contacts or something like that. (:

[hansschmucker]

Exactly =) , I hope sombody will put this to good use (It's not only great for games, also simple programming languages like basic would benefit A LOT). There's one thing I've forgotten though: You have to add an event to your list, so it knows it's supposed to pause on the next frame update, so it can save its share of the screenbuffer before the new app pops up. (Making a restore much easier!)

[zhamilton1]

All forms get a deactivated and activated messages, so a game would probably use the deactivate message which is sent before the actual form is activated.

I think this is realy needed for games especially for small bursts of fun... No one wants to have to close a game because its hogging thier resources to check up a contact!!! (:

I am working on the transparency issue... any ideas?

[hansschmucker]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by transparency issue, but generally, the only way to do it is doing a real addition/division, that is unless you use additive/substractive blending in which case you can use binary operations which really speed up the whole process

BTW... I posted a new skin in your skin post

[zhamilton1]

They moved the thread back to here...

Put your posts here from now on... no point having two points... (:

I think I will give up on transparency and shodows for the first version... it's too complicated and gives little use. I will give custom drawing to apps so they can do that themselves. I just dont think its a need for the first version.

I am getting very anxious to release the first version. I feel that alot more people will help me if I release some kind of release.

I think if the functionality is there other users will help me tackle other problems or write plug-ins to tackle them for me... (:

[iebnn]

don't skimp out on too much expecting others to write plugins though, since until it's part of the standard OS, developers aren't going to want to use functions that require a user to download a bunch of different plugins to use. Just a thought. Maybe ask plugin developers later on if you can incorporate their plugin into the OS so that users dont have to download anything more

get theme support done soon after v1!

[zhamilton1]

Main plugins who provide source-code will be included in the OS. I dont want to include plug-ins who have secret intensions (:

[napm]

Theme support will be a major priority after v1.0.

For those of you who don't remember me, I work here in Israel with Zakai on ScreensOS.

I'm back after 3 weeks off.

[Instigator]

when do you plan to release a demo
?

[napm]

There will be a developers edition first, which will be extremely limited. Then there'll be the full release which will have a purchase edition and a 30 day trial edition.

This will happen almost definitely by the end of the year, hopefully sooner. Anyone who's ever engineered a project this complex on such a limited budget knows that these things are hard to assign a timeline to. It's even harder to stick to a timeline, so we're not even going to set one.

We're going to release a good product, not a quick product.

[hansschmucker]

Ahem, will the limited developer edition (I'll call it ScreensSimulator) be available to interested users as well? Or those who want to create custom skins?

[napm]

Cuastom skins yes, interested users no.

Also, people who helped in the developement phase (this one) will get it (iebnn, alistar, hansschmucker, and more).

[iebnn]

An idea - AcidImage uses some sort of encryption in their app's code or something, and the latest cracked version is pretty old. I've heard it's incredibly difficult to patch. You might want to look into doing something like this. Also, if you can't implement such an extreme anti-piracy, thing, sorry my english is, er, failing me .. I've been speaking way too much Japanese and hearing way too much bad English.. if you can't implement something like that, then with each update, change something in the way you check for serials etc. and make sure that the pilotwarez crack doesn't work with the new version. They'll publish a crack probably within a week, but maybe some people will see the new update and try to get the crack and when they see that one doesn't exist they'll just buy the app. Also maybe talk to ardiri, he knows loads about this. I don't know a whole lot, if you disassemble one of my apps (nx movie aide) and read through it you'll see why.

Great to hear about the development edition. Try to get a WELL-DOCUMENTED (very important!) SDK out with this at the same time! I've already said stuff about this before though.

Best of luck with the development!

Btw, this is just my opinion, but I really would not like such extreme dithering (3 colors for a gradient) if able to have more colors than that on the unit. For old devices, well, just the 3c, never mind, you shouldn't make special arrangements for that device since it's dead now.

[zhamilton1]

First of all iebnn you are right about the dithering... (:

Second of all, I seem to go through a phase where it takes me two weeks to realize flaws in a design. This is because I get hyped up easily and it takes me time to see design problems.

The current design misses a few things and has a few design flaws as follows:
1. Tabs will fail because there is not enough screen estate. so what if it takes one tap, switching between two tabs is not a reason to use tabs for titles.
2. No way of launching applications... I missed that part of the design, which is very important.
3. Clutter is got to be fixed. If users have to minimize or even rollup forms all the time, this OS is doomed from the beggining.
4. Flaw in the task bar... what if more than 6 forms are available? I need to find a solution for that.
5. The green theme is TOO GREEN. I was told that by a number of people and they are right. A more balanced set of colors is needed.
6. Forget about corners... it is going to take to long to implement transparency and basicly its a waste of time for the user and the CPU.
7. I am thinking of using zooming... what do I mean? That is background forms shrink while active forms grow. With 160x160 this would not work well but with 320x320 forms could be shrinked by converting a form to a 160x160 dimension set.
8. The CPU is slow let's face it... Tapping loads of buttons very fast can slow the system down to near halt and users loose track of what they are doing because of the slow-down.
To fix this, buttons have a delay when tapped of a second. Its not that bad as you think since to cancel the button, just tap on the button again. This allows dragging to be used for other purposes and also how many of you tap and drag to cancel the button. A progress gradient could be showed on the button to show that the button is going to run. In the end this would boost performance and able to get users to run faster.
The time of the delay is changable.

This is all the flaws I have thought of untill now... (:

I know what you are thinking... here Zakai comes to reinvent the whole OS again... but no... If you compare all the versions, the latest one has always been easier to use and better.

There is NO POINT me releasing an OS which is not usable for standard users. This OS has to become main-stream for it to succeed. However once I release it, I am stuck with compatibility issues. This is the number one reason I am not releasing it before it is solid. You might play with the OS for a few weeks but then you will just delete the OS and return to PalmOS because the OS is just not practical. I dont want that to happen.

Please be patient and help along the way if you can... good things come to those who wait. If you dont like this thread, dont read it but if you do want to furfill my vision then thanks! And remember that you gain if the OS comes out great! (:

napm will probably be calling me after he sees this and say "STOP CHANGING IT!!!" (:

[iebnn]

I've got loads of comments now but it's getting late here ;-/

Expect lots of input from me by this friday or so.

I like a lot of your new changes, but have a lot of problems with some things too (as always) :) Keep up the good work!!

[napm]

ScreensOS now has an IRC channel where you can chat with the development team, or just lounge about in your underwear.

#ScreensOS on EFnet.

If you're not familiar with IRC, go to mirc.com and download the client.

I'll be on 24/7 while Zakai will be on rarely at best.
I hope to see you there!

[napm]

Also, I'm considering ops for alistar, iebnn and hans. msg if u want it.

[Alistar]

First of all, I feel the tabs are a great idea. I had mentioned earlier that it should be limited because of screen space, but I thing quick tapping between tabs is a good design. I can think of where I would want Splash Money app and the calculator up and switch between them with a single tap. Anyway I would try and consider keeping the tabs in some way, even limiting it to 3 tabs only or 1 tab that shows the title and the other 2 shrink to just a small but tappable square so that 2 or 3 programs can easily be linked.

I agree about the corners they look nice but are fairly superficial.

I don't think zooming is a good idea. I know several apps don't like switching resolutions and won't like doing it often. And I know several that certainly won't like being forced into a high resolution or into a lower resolution.

And I don't like the idea of a button pause. I agree with your logic on it, but I know I would be frustrated at the pause. I don't use the wondersilk app because the buttons have a slight delay even despite its full functions otherwise.

As for the task bar you should do something like zlauncher quicklaunch or McPhling. The taskbar could show 1 or 2 or maybe none at all, but have a button that pops up a list of active applications.

The green theme is just subjective. I don't mind it, but I would certainly put in my own style.

[iebnn]

I don't think zooming is a good idea. I know several apps don't like switching resolutions and won't like doing it often. And I know several that certainly won't like being forced into a high resolution or into a lower resolution

Those apps aren't coded for ScreensOS. They'll be run in full screen. Apps recoded to work with ScreensOS will (should) work fine with switching resolutions.

I don't think resolution switching should be automatic, or at least not by default.

Task bar - some ideas. Maybe only show something like 8 apps that are open that have been used the most (switched to the most), and have some button to the right of them that will pop up a list of the other apps open. Also, let us expand the task bar like in windows to show multiple rows. I could definitely see using it this way on a hires device (hires+ especially). Also have it optionally show text labels for the apps open, or text labels + icon on the left (like in windows). Also, like in windows xp, maybe group the same apps into one icon that you tap once on, then it shows a list of the instances of that app open, and you choose the one to open. I don't like this in windows, but that's because I have a really big resolution on my screen compared to palms and I have my task bar expanded to multiple rows. On a palm though this could be really nice to have. Also let the user tap the app group and tap something else to ungroup the group. You shouldnt have to worry too much about app clutter in the task bar though, since users will be able to have multiple desktops with different taskbars.

Try contacting a couple of the zlauncher skinners and ask them to help out. Tell them they'll get early versions of the OS etc.

I've still got more stuff coming...

[napm]

so far the respons to the irc channel has been phenomenal, so we'll be moving a fair amount of discussion to there.


---------


ScreensOS now has an IRC channel where you can chat with the development team, or just lounge about in your underwear.

#ScreensOS on EFnet.

If you're not familiar with IRC, go to mirc.com and download the client.

I'll be on 24/7 while Zakai will be on rarely at best.
I hope to see you there!

[Alistar]

Originally posted by iebnn


Those apps aren't coded for ScreensOS. They'll be run in full screen. Apps recoded to work with ScreensOS will (should) work fine with switching resolutions.

I don't think resolution switching should be automatic, or at least not by default.

Task bar - some ideas. Maybe only show something like 8 apps that are open that have been used the most (switched to the most), and have some button to the right of them that will pop up a list of the other apps open. Also, let us expand the task bar like in windows to show multiple rows. I could definitely see using it this way on a hires device (hires+ especially). Also have it optionally show text labels for the apps open, or text labels + icon on the left (like in windows). Also, like in windows xp, maybe group the same apps into one icon that you tap once on, then it shows a list of the instances of that app open, and you choose the one to open. I don't like this in windows, but that's because I have a really big resolution on my screen compared to palms and I have my task bar expanded to multiple rows. On a palm though this could be really nice to have. Also let the user tap the app group and tap something else to ungroup the group. You shouldnt have to worry too much about app clutter in the task bar though, since users will be able to have multiple desktops with different taskbars.

Try contacting a couple of the zlauncher skinners and ask them to help out. Tell them they'll get early versions of the OS etc.

I've still got more stuff coming...

Yea, I keep forgetting that only apps coded for the OS will take advantage of its features.

[zhamilton1]

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-7-4.bmp

Check it out! (Remember to do save as...)

It has a blue/gray them based a bit on Office XP's menu system (:

Tap the ScreensOS icon to get quickly to applications.
Tap the time to get to things like appointments (in screen shot), todos, notes and others pda related info.
Tap the battery to show state info such as battery info, backlight level, memory and card info.
Depending on the resolution more icons are displayed on the right. Those are the last activated apps. Tap the first icon (the active icon) to show the menu for the app.
The right button (window on window icon) shows a list of applications running.

The appointments view is very empty, I just did not spend enough time on design of it. (:

I feel that gradients might be nice but they are not a neccesity for things to work and the GUI can look cleaner without gradients and of course you get the GUI being more responsive (:

The left, right arrows in the PDA view switch between views. If you tap on the icon, the main view shows all available views as icons.

Enjoy and comment away... (:

[iebnn]

Hehe, *very* windows like in coloring... I really like it though. I like the new office xp menu coloring :)

Tapping the time to access notes or "other pda related" stuff doesn't seem intuitive to me.

Definitely make sure you let the user (or application) "roll up" the bar at the bottom (similar to old mac os), since a lot of applications that will be ported to this probably used that screen space at the bottom in their original versions (and getting rid of that space would require design reworks in many applications, just extra work for the developer)

Arrows to switch views doesn't seem good. I like having the toggle buttons in a row of the different views, it's much faster and more precise. People are used to it in Palm OS and seem to like it.

Consider getting rid of a common style for icons, such as the blue circle that palm now uses (or the TT style one that you seem to be using sorta). Windows, Mac, and Linux app icons are what ever, and it looks fine. It's also easier on the developer. It's going to be annoying if icons have to be redesigned to go with the screensos icon look.

[iebnn]

Maybe post chat logs of interesting things? I'm unable to go in there often at all, and would like to be able to comment on current ideas :)

[cbulock]

Originally posted by iebnn
Maybe post chat logs of interesting things? I'm unable to go in there often at all, and would like to be able to comment on current ideas :)

I like that idea. I checked out the IRC chatroom, but was dead when I was there. I haven't provided much input, but I have enjoyed following the progress of this OS.

[napm]

Chatlogs will be available eventually.

They will be served via an fserve in the channel.

CbuLock and DimensionX, you need to msg me when you're in the room to get my attention. I'm at my computer monitoring irc for many hours a day, but I'm often monitoring other channels as well.

[napm]

Remember, #ScreensOS on EFnet, or for the least lag time, connect directly to:
/server irc.inter.net.il
/join #ScreensOS

[zhamilton1]

iebnn, I do not expect all apps to port over, in fact most apps like games do not need multi-tasking in the background. (:

Why don't you think tapping on the time is intuitive?

Arrows are for quick forward/back in the views, however tap the icon to view all views at once and tap one to launch the PDA view.
It will give users a central place for thier information.

New apps do not have to change thier style. Just like microsoft has thier style and PalmOS has thiers, this is mine (:

iebnn, I would realy like to chat with you... I am on the chat room nearly every night (in israel) from 12:00am to 6:00am (GMT+2)

[zhamilton1]

Here is my latest try at hitting the theme softspot... (:

http://www.geocities.com/zhamilton1/SL-7-6.bmp

Remember to do save as... (:

It has a more 3D style which feels very comfortable... (;

iebnn, I have listened more carefully and have removed the blue seroundings from all icons apart from the recent apps list icon (on the right).

I have decided to forget about joining/detaching forms at the moment. Might implement it in a later version... (;

I am cutting of corners of the design to able to start programming soon... and I mean real soon... (:

I am going to be at the Mirc ScreensOS group all night (up untill the morning), please come by and talk with me about your ideas, suggestions, questions... (:

[iebnn]

hey,

quick comment - I really like the old bottom bar (without the 3d) more than the new one. Now it kinda looks like another window, I don't know, I liked the old one since if it's not 3d it kinda blends into the edges, hard to explain.

the battery looks a little funny, maybe because it's right up against the border

[iebnn]

Also, I can think of some full-screen apps that people would use yet still like to be able to access the bottom bar etc. (by having it wrapped up and being a little rectangle on the bottom left or something, like in mac os). For example, image applications, or even some games such as solitaire.

Make sure you design/code your OS in a way that you can easily (as possible) add true multitasking support later on when os6 is released. If OS6 offers a better multitasking experience than screensos, then people aren't going to use screensos anymore. Also some people will make their decision just by hearing that os6 supports true multitasking, while screensos is sort of a pseudo-multitasking system.

[zhamilton1]

First of all, I am just exploring my GUI ideas... (:
I'll be posting different ideas... in the end I am sure we will get to a good design... however new designs does not mean that they will be in the OS (:

OS6 does support multi-tasking but not multi-forming (:
Plus OS6 only will work on realy new devices, while ScreensOS works on any device above 3.0.
ScreensOS is OS6 ready in the multi-tasking department... (:

Yes I am working on having the toolbar shrink/expand on demand... (:

[hansschmucker]

BTW, here's an example pic of what you can do with gimp.org (created in < 5 min ):
http://hansschmucker.free.fr/Gimp.png

[napm]

The chat channel has been a HUGE hit, with more getting done there in a few days than in here in over a month.

As a result, a decision has been made to move most of the developement activity there, although status reports will be regularly posted here.

In addition, support services (end user tech suport and developer support) will be available there, as well as random chat, mostly on the subject of ScreensOS.

Remember, #ScreensOS on EFnet, or, for the least lag time, connect directly to:
/server irc.inter.net.il
/join #ScreensOS

[iebnn]

Could you maybe set up a bot that logs and automatically uploads the logs to a web site (or host a web site on the same machine as the bot and just host the log file)? I have little time on the internet each day, and in a couple weeks it'll be rare when I'm able to go online.

Gimp is nice but if you already have Photoshop there's not much point using it.

[zhamilton1]

I dont have photoshop and I found gimp to complex (not consistent (: ) so I'll be sticking with mspaint which does the job.

Napm and me are talking lately about app management...

how many apps would a user run and which need instant one tap access and which will settle for a double tap.

This is a hard issue because on one hand users would like to switch between apps quickly and see thier states (i.e. Infra red monitor) but on the other hand it takes space and I dont want the task bar filled with icons.

So I am working on alternate ways like a side bar where app icons are there and you can switch between them one tap away but still only about 8 apps can be displayed.

The only thing left is the GUI design which is what is mostly important since it wraps around all the components and shows it to the user.

I told napm that untill now, users could run one app at a time and still required multiple taps to get to them so if I gave them quick access between 3 apps and two taps away for the rest that would be OK, but napm told me that once the users find out that they can run all the native apps on the device with no slow-down they will use the multi-tasking feature much more.

Tell me what you think?

The chat is great for detailed talk but that is still rare because of timing, so if you dont catch me in the chat room, add a post here and once I read it, I will check out the chat room to see if you are there. If you are, we can talk more details about your questions, comments.

[iebnn]

Allow multiple customizable bars, like in windows. Let the user have it how they like.

Have something that you tap, hold down, a window of a bunch of icons appears, and you drag the pen over to the app you want to switch to and lift it up and it opens that app. An idea.

Remember app groups.

Try to put the screen switching on the toolbar maybe? Like in linux.

[Alistar]

See, I told you customization was best. Its not cheating to allow the user to setup their own taskbar.

[zhamilton1]

Customization will be possible via colors and themes however the default look is what is important since many users will not change settings at all.

Meet in me in the chat room tonight (GMT+2)
I would like to talk about iebnn's idea (:
It sounds great!

I'll work on a screenshot to see how i understood it.

[iebnn]

The default look can be simplish. Assume the person who uses the default is not a power user. Like in Windows, the start bar by default is only one line of icons tall, and is always there, while this amount of space is usually not enough for all the apps open. Are you going to let people increase the size of the bar so it can have multiple rows of app icons?

[the_iceman]

Originally posted by zhamilton1
Customization will be possible via colors and themes however the default look is what is important since many users will not change settings at all.


On that comment .... I'd disagree whole-heartedly. Users like customization and change. I remember back in the 1980s ... how a piece of software was the 'rage' called AfterDark. A simple Screen-saver program which gave dozens of different screen-savers to the user. This product sold tons of copies because people wanted their screen-saver different than other 'standard' ones.

One reason some replacement launchers are so successful is because of the amount of customization available to them. Even in the PC world.... I know of people who like their task bars on the bottom ... some on the right or top and even left. while 90% of the people out there leave their task bars in windows at the bottom, at least Windows gives abilities of moving the taskbars to one of 4 locations.

People love launcher replacements such as ZLauncher due to it being highly customizable in it's appearance. Different themes .... different setups. The more customization one can do to an environment the more people are apt to give it a whirl.

just my $0.02

[zhamilton1]

It just so happens that:

1. Many users (simple users) never even know that options exist...

2. Most window users I know keep the default look and feel

3. People like to know that they can change it even if they won't, which means that even if I supply the option to change themes, many users wont.

You migh disagree with me... you might know a different group of users, so there realy isn't any point arguing on this point (:

I will be supplying a large amount of customization however I feel that the default look is what the OS will be showed as in ads and publicity. This look must be unique... I dont want users thinking that this is a windows/mac copy because it is NOT!

That is why I am trying different looks...

Many of you seem to be fixed on the green theme... however I for one am realy not happy with that theme. On one hand I want the OS to be the way you all want it, however if I dont like it, I feel that it would be realy hard programming for an OS I dont like and presenting it will be hard and painfull if I dont feel its greatness.
You could say, that I could use a different theme, however as my point above, presenting it in its default theme would be realy hard if I did not like it.

I will be in the chat room in a few hours... so you can all talk to me more directly.

As much as I like customization I feel that how you present the product to the user is as equally important. If a program looks terrible but has the 'feature' to look nice... well I for one would never even reach that stage.

[zhamilton1]

iebnn, I forgot to answer your question:
I dont know... should I allow sizing the bar? It could take up a lot of space and unlike windows when you have a 1024x768 workspace, a 160x100 workspace does not seem that good.

Since some users like the time on the left and some like it on the right, users can just drag the time to the left/right to suit thier preference. This is hidden customization that seems obvious

I found a few design flaws in the plug-in system. I'll let you know when I fix it (probably tommorow)

napm is telling me to start programming... however I dont feel that I have a close dead-line and I am afraid to make one for one simple reason... I am afraid to make a bad product... however you could say that in the speed I am going, there will never be a project at all. However I feel good things take time and an OS is not a simple task since Its not just giving a user a product that will work, it is giving a product that will be the base for other products. Every flaw in the OS becomes a flaw in the program that was based on it. Microsoft nor Apple created thier OS in a year and certainly had more than 1 person programming it... When I feel secure (which is hard since I am VERY picky) I will program it, however many of you are losing patience... and turning this project into vaporware... and I dont know what to do about it.

I am sure that if you stick along, this OS will be released and you will enjoy it (I hope).

To show some sign of work, I will program all parts but the GUI. This means that you wont be seing real screenshots however the base will be made which is some progress. This might even end the GUI part as well since once I can test usability on the device instead of thinking how it might work which might make my decisions more stable.

The components which will be done soon:
1. ALD - Application Load Database
This is the Screens center for preferences
2. Messages
This is the multi-tasking component for ScreensOS

I expect to start programming this sunday...

[iebnn]

Definitely allow the bar to be resized. Not many of your users are going to be using 160x160 screens. A lot of them will be power users on 320x320 or 320x480 screens where it wouldn't be as much of a problem. Also, let users have EVERYTHING be in a mode where the OS thinks it's a lores device, just with more pixels (so the task bar takes up half the space it does on a lores device in a hires device, get what I mean?)

Have you gotten input from skinners?

[zhamilton1]

The pixel thing was the idea from the beggining.

Not much input from skinners... I am actually hanging of the cliff on that section... if any of you can create some screenshots of a GUI which has all the features we need please do so.

I see your point in the title sizing... I'll think of how to implement it.

[iebnn]

Title sizing? You're talking about the bar at the bottom right?

[zhamilton1]

Yes I meant the app bar. What I am thinking of doing is that if you drag any icon apart from the active icon on the task bar up, the task bar grows up, drag down to move the task bar down. It sounds simple.

Ive solved the plug-ins problem (it does take me time to find an easy solution). The problem was that if plug-ins registered for a certain function they would have no control to cancel the original function since they would not know when they were called.
I solved this by having two lists (using the ALD = App Load Db) where all plug-ins in the 'before' list are called before the original which can choose to enable/disable the original while in the 'after' list, plug-ins are run only if the original was run.
This allows plug-ins to easily know when to do thier work.

Programming is planned to start on sunday. Untill then I will be fine-tuning the design so it will be ready.

Many of you have not understood how native applications are launched in ScreensOS... well here's how its done:
The message component starts when ScreensOS is started (via the launcher icon) going through a list of messages, running one at a time while the messages it runs can add new messages at the end. If no messages are available then it goes into doze mode, however if there are no active messages (messages that should run now) but there are timer messages (messages that should run in a certain amount of time) then Screens goes into doze mode for the lowest timer. However if the user wakes the device (tap on screen, press the buttons as so forth) then Screens returns to the message loop, reading and removing entries again and again.

What is a message?
Instead of using libaries which requires to have to link to the libary (which is very akward and is not compatible with existing prc's) Screens uses the SysAppLaunch function to run any native application as a sub task. The only parameter which is sent to the application is the ScreensOS launch code. If the application is "native" then the application handles the call by asking the message component for details. The application deals with the message and exists immediately. This is very quick and is like the "find" command in PalmOS. This means that every time you tap a button, the application is launched for less than half a second. Many of these sub calls one after each other allows the multi-tasking effect.

The advantage of this is when the application is not active, it's not in use. Only one application is ever running at once and only when its "running". Running is when it is actually doing something. This improves speed since cycles are not spent by each application waiting for events but rather the system sends the applications thier messages for them. This also allows to have theoreticly 100 apps "open" since only one is every running at a time which also makes sure that the application you are working on will work at 100% speed. Only "background" messages can hinder speed however this only happens when doing live queries or any other "running for more than a second" message.

If any of you dont understand... ask away.