Edlin
03-15-2004, 04:59 PM
Today's TeleRead blog article covers a controversy regarding Michael Hart, Project Gutenberg and the "Project Gutenberg II" site:
<http://www.teleread.org/blog/2004_03_14_archive.html#107933674108576016>
This apparently stemmed from the discussion occuring the last couple days in the Project Gutenberg general public discussion list, gutvol-d, whose archives are open to subscribers. To subscribe to the list and to access the archives, refer to:
http://promo.net/pg/subs.html
I don't know what to make of all of this, but it is very troubling since the use of Michael's trademark, "Project Gutenberg", is being associated, with his approval, with PDF content currently unavailable in a free format, and requiring a paid yearly fee to access. So much for totally free and unencumbered content for the masses.
Hopefully Michael will clear up the misunderstandings regarding his association with the World eBook Library and its use of the moniker "Project Gramophone II" associated with content that must be purchased.
Jon Noring
For months Project Gutenberg volunteers have been polishing their main site, which today is at Gutenberg.net rather than the venerable Promo.net address. Now a flashy site has sprung up separately from Gutenberg.net. Called Project Gutenberg 2, it comes with a stylish layout and "Over 27,000 HTML eBooks to choose from." That's several times the 10,000 or so in the original Project Gutenberg. Mysterious, too, is the emphasis on Adobe format for paid members of Project Gutenberg 2--at complete odds with the strenuously nonproprietary approach of Gutenberg's past. The HTML is free. But you pay for membership to read the more than "60,000 PDF eBooks and eDocuments."
So have the most active of the Project Gutenberg volunteers been quietly slaving away to surprise the world with Project Gutenberg 2 while using Gutenberg.net as a decoy? Not exactly. It's news to them as well, including Charles Franks, head of the well-regarded Distributed Proofreaders, which is the main source of PG texts these days. Over the weekend a Project Gutenberg volunteer list was buzzing with all kinds of questions for PG founder Michael Hart, who personally owns the Project Gutenberg trademark.
Teleread
Even though David Rothman's TeleRead blog is overly dramatic for my tastes, he does make several valid points with regards to this issue. A few of the volunteers on gutvol-d, the main public discussion list for Project Gutenberg, are noticeably concerned. Just follow the discussion there. And I am in private communication with a couple long-time volunteers, and they are *very, very* concerned, troubled, and understandably angry.
With regards to Ghost Cat's comment about criticizing those who have done the work, I can understand that sentiment. But let's look at who has done the work.
Those who have done the real work for PG are the hundreds, if not thousands, of volunteers who over the years slaved away night and day at typing, scanning, proofreading, etc., etc., producing most of the ten thousand etexts now in the PG archive. Sure, Michael Hart was the visionary who got it going, and himself has devoted most of his adult life to it (and many of the earliest texts he typed in directly), but it is the volunteers who made PG what it is today, catalyzed by Michael Hart's enthusiastic idealism of free and unencumbered etexts, FREE of any commercialism. This last point cannot be overemphasized enough. This is the implicit contract Michael made with these many volunteers, including those working today.
Notice that David Rothman's criticisms are leveled at Michael Hart's latest decision to let the "Project Gutenberg" name be used by a commercial concern, and in an unacceptable way which I've described in a recent message. The criticisms are not leveled at the volunteers, nor at Michael Hart, the person. David clearly wants Michael to be given the accolades for his pioneering contributions to the ebook community, but also to live up to his ideals which got him there.
I believe David Rothman's criticisms are valid, and the many PG volunteers have a right to know what's going on with the philosophical direction and underpinnings of Project Gutenberg. Hopefully Michael Hart will clarify this to everyone's satisfaction. To me, World eBook Library should not be allowed to use "Project Gutenberg" in any way, shape or fashion which even *remotely* smacks of any type of promotion of its commercial goals. Below I give what I'd consider "acceptable use" of the Project Gutenberg good name.
If the World eBook Library won't donate to Project Gutenberg free etexts which will add to its archives, unless the PG name is used to promote the site in any substantive fashion, Michael should turn down the offer out of principle. The only wording I *may* find acceptable is something like the following placed somewhere at the bottom of the home page:
"The World eBook Library is proud to donate to Project Gutenberg the etext versions of many of its books."
Anything more than this is unacceptable, imho. The phrase "Project Gutenberg 2" should not be used at all. In fact, that seems to imply that Michael Hart is abandoning the current Project Gutenberg for some sort of commercially-oriented operation.
Jon Noring
Greg Newby wrote:
> Meredydd wrote:
>> Michael Hart wrote:
>>> Project Gutenberg II has created its own eLibrary in
>>> .pdf and .html formats
>> Does this signify abandonment of plain text as a primary format?
> Nothing in PG has changed. We're doing what we've been doing,
> same mission, and the same signature as compared to other eBook
> sources (i.e., copyright research, formatting, plain text).
>
> As you've seen, PG-II is an independent effort. I suspect
> that our feedback will result in some changes there.
>
> N.B., Michael is about to spend a day or so traveling
> from Hawaii back home to Illinois, so will be offline for
> a day or more. But I'm sure we'll hear from him.
Since Michael Hart is the owner of the "Project Gutenberg" trademark (notwithstanding the oddities of projectgutenberg.org -- see note at end), he can certainly do with it as he pleases.
However, to expand upon what Charles commented last night, the spirit of Project Gutenberg is free and unencumbered etexts. The association of "Project Gutenberg 2" with the World eBook Library, selling content (and in PDF!) with no associated free versions of that content (60,000 PDFs versus 27,000 free HTML documents) is, to me, a violation of the strict spirit of what Project Gutenberg is about. Seeing how passionate Michael Hart is about wanting PG to be a bottom-up, grass- roots movement where all texts are to be totally free and unencumbered (I was at the December Internet Archive meeting to hear him speak and to talk with him in private) -- the current use of "Project Gutenberg 2" as promoting a "pay for content" service greatly surprises me, and is of concern.
In addition, the name "Project Gutenberg 2", which we know has to have Michael's blessing to use, strongly implies that this is to be a "successor" to the original "Project Gutenberg" -- sort of like the "PG, the Next Generation". Although I refuse to believe this is Michael's intent, I can see where people will say that Michael Hart has succumbed to the "Dark Side of the Force".
For these reasons I call upon Michael to withdraw permission for the World eBook Library to use the trademark "Project Gutenberg" in any way, shape or fashion. I'm afraid of the fallout to the goals and even very existence of Project Gutenberg, and to the morale of its volunteer force who take free and unencumbered etexts seriously, if this step is not taken immediately.
Jon Noring
<http://www.teleread.org/blog/2004_03_14_archive.html#107933674108576016>
This apparently stemmed from the discussion occuring the last couple days in the Project Gutenberg general public discussion list, gutvol-d, whose archives are open to subscribers. To subscribe to the list and to access the archives, refer to:
http://promo.net/pg/subs.html
I don't know what to make of all of this, but it is very troubling since the use of Michael's trademark, "Project Gutenberg", is being associated, with his approval, with PDF content currently unavailable in a free format, and requiring a paid yearly fee to access. So much for totally free and unencumbered content for the masses.
Hopefully Michael will clear up the misunderstandings regarding his association with the World eBook Library and its use of the moniker "Project Gramophone II" associated with content that must be purchased.
Jon Noring
For months Project Gutenberg volunteers have been polishing their main site, which today is at Gutenberg.net rather than the venerable Promo.net address. Now a flashy site has sprung up separately from Gutenberg.net. Called Project Gutenberg 2, it comes with a stylish layout and "Over 27,000 HTML eBooks to choose from." That's several times the 10,000 or so in the original Project Gutenberg. Mysterious, too, is the emphasis on Adobe format for paid members of Project Gutenberg 2--at complete odds with the strenuously nonproprietary approach of Gutenberg's past. The HTML is free. But you pay for membership to read the more than "60,000 PDF eBooks and eDocuments."
So have the most active of the Project Gutenberg volunteers been quietly slaving away to surprise the world with Project Gutenberg 2 while using Gutenberg.net as a decoy? Not exactly. It's news to them as well, including Charles Franks, head of the well-regarded Distributed Proofreaders, which is the main source of PG texts these days. Over the weekend a Project Gutenberg volunteer list was buzzing with all kinds of questions for PG founder Michael Hart, who personally owns the Project Gutenberg trademark.
Teleread
Even though David Rothman's TeleRead blog is overly dramatic for my tastes, he does make several valid points with regards to this issue. A few of the volunteers on gutvol-d, the main public discussion list for Project Gutenberg, are noticeably concerned. Just follow the discussion there. And I am in private communication with a couple long-time volunteers, and they are *very, very* concerned, troubled, and understandably angry.
With regards to Ghost Cat's comment about criticizing those who have done the work, I can understand that sentiment. But let's look at who has done the work.
Those who have done the real work for PG are the hundreds, if not thousands, of volunteers who over the years slaved away night and day at typing, scanning, proofreading, etc., etc., producing most of the ten thousand etexts now in the PG archive. Sure, Michael Hart was the visionary who got it going, and himself has devoted most of his adult life to it (and many of the earliest texts he typed in directly), but it is the volunteers who made PG what it is today, catalyzed by Michael Hart's enthusiastic idealism of free and unencumbered etexts, FREE of any commercialism. This last point cannot be overemphasized enough. This is the implicit contract Michael made with these many volunteers, including those working today.
Notice that David Rothman's criticisms are leveled at Michael Hart's latest decision to let the "Project Gutenberg" name be used by a commercial concern, and in an unacceptable way which I've described in a recent message. The criticisms are not leveled at the volunteers, nor at Michael Hart, the person. David clearly wants Michael to be given the accolades for his pioneering contributions to the ebook community, but also to live up to his ideals which got him there.
I believe David Rothman's criticisms are valid, and the many PG volunteers have a right to know what's going on with the philosophical direction and underpinnings of Project Gutenberg. Hopefully Michael Hart will clarify this to everyone's satisfaction. To me, World eBook Library should not be allowed to use "Project Gutenberg" in any way, shape or fashion which even *remotely* smacks of any type of promotion of its commercial goals. Below I give what I'd consider "acceptable use" of the Project Gutenberg good name.
If the World eBook Library won't donate to Project Gutenberg free etexts which will add to its archives, unless the PG name is used to promote the site in any substantive fashion, Michael should turn down the offer out of principle. The only wording I *may* find acceptable is something like the following placed somewhere at the bottom of the home page:
"The World eBook Library is proud to donate to Project Gutenberg the etext versions of many of its books."
Anything more than this is unacceptable, imho. The phrase "Project Gutenberg 2" should not be used at all. In fact, that seems to imply that Michael Hart is abandoning the current Project Gutenberg for some sort of commercially-oriented operation.
Jon Noring
Greg Newby wrote:
> Meredydd wrote:
>> Michael Hart wrote:
>>> Project Gutenberg II has created its own eLibrary in
>>> .pdf and .html formats
>> Does this signify abandonment of plain text as a primary format?
> Nothing in PG has changed. We're doing what we've been doing,
> same mission, and the same signature as compared to other eBook
> sources (i.e., copyright research, formatting, plain text).
>
> As you've seen, PG-II is an independent effort. I suspect
> that our feedback will result in some changes there.
>
> N.B., Michael is about to spend a day or so traveling
> from Hawaii back home to Illinois, so will be offline for
> a day or more. But I'm sure we'll hear from him.
Since Michael Hart is the owner of the "Project Gutenberg" trademark (notwithstanding the oddities of projectgutenberg.org -- see note at end), he can certainly do with it as he pleases.
However, to expand upon what Charles commented last night, the spirit of Project Gutenberg is free and unencumbered etexts. The association of "Project Gutenberg 2" with the World eBook Library, selling content (and in PDF!) with no associated free versions of that content (60,000 PDFs versus 27,000 free HTML documents) is, to me, a violation of the strict spirit of what Project Gutenberg is about. Seeing how passionate Michael Hart is about wanting PG to be a bottom-up, grass- roots movement where all texts are to be totally free and unencumbered (I was at the December Internet Archive meeting to hear him speak and to talk with him in private) -- the current use of "Project Gutenberg 2" as promoting a "pay for content" service greatly surprises me, and is of concern.
In addition, the name "Project Gutenberg 2", which we know has to have Michael's blessing to use, strongly implies that this is to be a "successor" to the original "Project Gutenberg" -- sort of like the "PG, the Next Generation". Although I refuse to believe this is Michael's intent, I can see where people will say that Michael Hart has succumbed to the "Dark Side of the Force".
For these reasons I call upon Michael to withdraw permission for the World eBook Library to use the trademark "Project Gutenberg" in any way, shape or fashion. I'm afraid of the fallout to the goals and even very existence of Project Gutenberg, and to the morale of its volunteer force who take free and unencumbered etexts seriously, if this step is not taken immediately.
Jon Noring