1src Forums - Setting the record straight...

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jbarr

02-24-2003, 11:24 PM

I received a number of emails from several ClieSource members informing me of a "rip-off" skin that was being sold on PalmGear. The program in question is called "ZeoPad Launcher Deluxe 1.0".

After a lengthy discussion with the author, we determined that the whole issue was a HUGE misunderstanding. I will not go into details about it because it is not important other than to say the author and I, as well as most of you on this forum, have learned a lot with this great new program in WonderSilk.

So, for the record, I do not consider "ZeoPad Launcher Deluxe 1.0" to be a "rip-off" and I have requested that PalmGear not block the sale of the skin. In fact, it is a very nicely refined skin, and if nothing else, helps promote WonderSilk in general.

I, myself, am planning on marketing some skins, so I don't want to draw any bad blood from the very people who have helped me learn this product.

So please keep an eye on PalmGear and www.WonderSilkSkins.com, and , I encourage everyone who creates skins to do so with your utmost creativity.

T800

02-25-2003, 04:12 AM

Jim,
Thanks for clearing that up. I respect your opinion and in fact all that you've done on this forum for all of our benefits.
I'm still a little dazed though, maybe you could clear something up for me?
When does using somebody elses freeware app with a collection of somebody elses freeware images together become a shareware app? Is it based on knowledge? Amount of effort put in by the "developer"? If so, then aren't all the very time consuming VG, SB, and wallpaper skin authors also intitled to charge for their work? They can even claim that they had to purchase Paint Shop Pro for example and need to cover their overheads.
I don't want to flame you, or misrepresent you, so please don't take me the wrong way. I'm just interested in the argument FOR making it Shareware?

Kind regards
T800

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 07:22 AM

It is because selling the silks made by the app aren't a part of the app itself. For instance if you made a beautiful painting using a freeware fractal program, the image isn't a part of the program: it's yours.

T800

02-25-2003, 09:26 AM

To quote myself in the above post.....

"If so, then aren't all the very time consuming VG, SB, and wallpaper skin authors also intitled to charge for their work? "

Regards
T800

karasu

02-25-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by T800
To quote myself in the above post.....

"If so, then aren't all the very time consuming VG, SB, and wallpaper skin authors also intitled to charge for their work? "

Regards
T800

Only if they charged for it. It comes down to how the product is brought to market. If I GIVE you something now, it doesn't stop me from CHARGING someone else down the road. Kind of like the artist that paints for fun, gives some to friends then finds out there is a demand for his work and starts charging for future pieces. To go back later and ask for monies for the pieces already given is silly.

To paraphrase Bill Gates: " Open source is an excellent development model, but a lousy business model"

T800

02-25-2003, 10:42 AM

Oh!
So now it's clear to me at least.

Filez - a powerful program for the NX - is FREE
Colorize - change the look af ALL your apps - is FREE
ClieSource - a wealth of information and resources for all of us - is FREE
WonderSilk - is FREE
WonderMaker - is FREE

ZeoPad - a skin - however is 9.99.

Is that it, am i on target?

I guess it comes down to personal preference. If I were Sony though, I would have the personal preference to want at least 9.98 dollars for the unlawful use of their Clie trade mark and logo.

Zero respect guys.

T800

jbarr

02-25-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by T800
When does using somebody elses freeware app with a collection of somebody elses freeware images together become a shareware app?I think this is a good starting point for a discussion. There are two real issues here:

1. Can someone take freeware components and assemble them together to create a non-freeware app?

and

2. Does taking an original design and altering it slightly constitute a new original design?

Speaking to point 1, I believe that yes, it can. Consider writing a Windows app using GCC. Unfortunatly, I am not familiar with the specific licensing terms of GCC, but I believe that programs created with it can be sold as long as credit is given to GCC for development. I don't believe that Chime intended skins to be restricted as being free. I believe that Chime's license is specifically concerned with the re-distribution of the WonderSilk Plug-in and the Kinu-Maru app. Specific to this topic, the author of ZeoPad did state in his literature that his program is a skin written to work with WonderSilk. To that I take no issue.

That said, speaking to point 2, I believe that altering an original design does NOT constitute a new original design. An altered design can improve on the design, and that result could deserve compensation, but to claim that the derivative design as original is a false claim. The two skins in question are very similar and at the same time, they are different. I have no problem with someone improving a design and selling the improved design, but credit should begive to the original designer if the new work is a derivative.

It is evident that my design of the "WSilkTaPad" skin which later was renamed to "WS-TaPad-02", was the inspiration for the ZeoPad skin, and as I understand it, the ZeoPad skin was created "from scratch" in that it was not created directly from my WSilkTaPad.wsb file, but from stock graphics and graphics derived from the image I posted. A better way to phrase it might be that it is a "clone" created independently.

Further, the graphics used, with the exception of three, were unaltered stock graphics from Koby's collection. I do not know what his licensing policy is. The other three graphics were stock graphics from Koby's collection that I altered to better fit my intended design. Could the end-result (freeware components assembled into a "new" product) be sellable? I believe so. The end product is an original work in that it presents form and function in an original way.

Could it be implied that by me posting my design to the public and not specifying any licensing restrictions, I gave up my right to claim "originality"? I don't know.

Is it based on knowledge? Amount of effort put in by the "developer"?Knowledge is very valuable. If it is an original compilation, then yes, but if it is derivative and claimed as original, then no.

If so, then aren't all the very time consuming VG, SB, and wallpaper skin authors also intitled to charge for their work?Absolutely! If they create original designs then they have every right to charge for those original designs. The reality is that most do not charge.

They can even claim that they had to purchase Paint Shop Pro for example and need to cover their overheads.Their reasoning for charging doesn't matter as long as the work that they produce is original.

I don't want to flame you, or misrepresent you, so please don't take me the wrong way. I'm just interested in the argument FOR making it Shareware?

Simply put, I created the original design in WSilkTaPad (which later became "WS-TaPad-02") and publically posted it. The Zeopad author apparantly used the image of that posting (and as I understand it, not the .wsb file) as a model for his design. Am I disappointed that the author used my original design as a model without any credit to me? Yes. But I cannot fault him because if I do than my own design must, in fact, be called into question because it contains components that I altered to suit my needs for the design for which I never credited Koby.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

jbarr

02-25-2003, 11:12 AM

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 11:18 AM

My biggest issue here is that the Zeo skin uses graphics from other sources, and contains no original artwork that I can see. Making a profit from someone else's property. If the whole skin was brand new, and wasn't just stock images, I would understand selling it.

*Jive Turkey*

02-25-2003, 11:27 AM

I'm glad that everything is straightened out. I was a little worred last night. Whew! What a relief. I look forward to seeing what you come up with and market on PalmGear. As always let me know if there is anything I can do to help you!

Donkeystyle

02-25-2003, 11:28 AM

In another post, goldentiger blatently called your tapad a rippoff of his zeowhatever. There is no 'misunderstanding.' zeocrap is a con job and was tried to be passed off as the original when in fact it is a 'clone.'

T800

02-25-2003, 11:31 AM

Thanks for you reply Jim.

I don't think I stand alone on this topic, judging by the number of negative posts in the news item on the front page. I suppose my main problem is a social one, not a legal one. Everyone followed the progression of the Wondersilk thread with fascination as the community pulled together and contributed towards getting it working - for the community. You especially helped us all Jim. Then some days later someone is charging 9.99 for something?!?!? Did Cameron do this after he had explained to us all how to make VG skins? Then did he charge an upgrade fee when he figured out how to do 16bit VG skins?

My personal feeling is like this (to draw a parallel):

We're all in a bar chatting and exchanging ideas for how we can improve our society/club. Some excellent resources are offered for free from various individuals and the the others offer to help. Just as we get towards the end of the, one guy stands up and says "Well we're nearly there chaps - but from now on my portion will cost you each 9.99."

I wouldn't, and indeed I don't accept that as legitimate.

Sorry is the day when every VG, SB or Background skin on CLieSource is offered at a price.

A question:
Based on Zeopad, just what would I have to change to enable ME to sell this skin for 9.99, but donate all the proceeds to a childrens charity (or similar good cause)? A few button bitmaps? Just the name?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree Jim, but, as in "real world" society, I leave the discussion with a bitter taste in my mouth, and a deep sorrow for the greed of man.

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 11:34 AM

T800, just make it a different color. All of those graphics are stock and don't belong to the auto of ZeoSkin anyways. I'd change the color of the background of the graffiti area, and change the buttons. Maybe switch the brightness button with something. I'd pay $10 for that!

That was what shocked me.. when he announced that Jim was ripping the Zeo skin off. That's quite a bit of nerve.

oneeyesquare

02-25-2003, 11:43 AM

I don't believe for one minute that he reassembled the skin from a screen shot of Jbarr's Tappad02. C'mon!!!! How gullible do you think we are? Drop and drag, add an icon or two, put it up for sale on Palmgear (misrepresnting what it is...)
I'd consider paying for original artwork, if it wow'ed my socks off. The Wondermaker app is easy to learn. The learning curve on Paint Shop Pro 8 hurts... Still I'm on my 4th personalized and functional skin...
I'm gonna call mine ZetaLauncher 1.2322...:p

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 11:46 AM

I imagine he hasn't been responding because he's been working on this. At least it looks to be an original. http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=6A664349-9CB7-46DC-AE3D933C38F38495&prodID=47733

big_raji

02-25-2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by OcellNuri
I imagine he hasn't been responding because he's been working on this. At least it looks to be an original. http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=6A664349-9CB7-46DC-AE3D933C38F38495&prodID=47733

Ugh. That skin is horrible.

It looks like something someone would make as an example/tutorial for making a better skin that you can actually put some effort into.

That skin is the equivalent of a stick-figure drawing.

If I knew nothing else about the developer, that skin alone would make me lose respect for him.

jfaulken

02-25-2003, 12:27 PM

I think the best option for all the detractors (and I'm one as well, it just *feels* like plaigarism) is to outdo him. Since this is a free market economy, if you feel like the problem is his quality, make something better and post it for free on palmgear. If you feel the problem is price, duplicate his work precisely and post THAT for free on palmgear. If you're just jealous then get off your buns and make another skin that you feel IS worth $10 and call it good.

:)

- John

*Jive Turkey*

02-25-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by jfaulken
I think the best option for all the detractors (and I'm one as well, it just *feels* like plaigarism) is to outdo him. Since this is a free market economy, if you feel like the problem is his quality, make something better and post it for free on palmgear. If you feel the problem is price, duplicate his work precisely and post THAT for free on palmgear. If you're just jealous then get off your buns and make another skin that you feel IS worth $10 and call it good.

:)

- John

Well Put!

rldunn

02-25-2003, 01:55 PM

jbarr gave further explanation here.

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4903&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 02:52 PM

rldunn

02-25-2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
Reverse engineering is illegal. Isn't that what you did from jbarr's work?

cbulock

02-25-2003, 03:01 PM

Oh, come on GT, after all these lies, you still expect us to believe you created that skin. Come on, we know jbarr made it. All you have to do is look at the other two Zeo skins to see that they don't even come close to the Deluxe skin.

jbarr

02-25-2003, 03:04 PM

OK Steve, I'm curious. Please explain how you created ZeoPad without "reverse-engineering" the WSilkTaPad skin? You stated yourself that you could not access to the .zip file that contained the .wsb file so you had to "figure it out" yourself and create it from scratch. How is this not reverse-engineering?

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 03:18 PM

If Chevy made a car that is exactly like the Mustang, everything identical 'cept the bow tie on the front... Even if they didn't use Ford parts to make the car, they would still be in SERIOUS LEGAL TROUBLE. You havn't done much different Steve, even if you did just look at his skin and make it "from scratch". But you see, it wasn't from scratch, because Wondermaker came with all of those nice icons and graphics you used. You didn't produce those graphics. You used 'Ford parts'.

eyesee

02-25-2003, 03:30 PM

Remember, everyone has the opportunity to "Review" this product on the PalmGear site.

http://www.palmgear.com/software/reviewnew.cfm?sid=265EE46D-4583-4279-9C24CF9BC97F283D&prodID=47694

Any attempts at justification here amounts to not much more than bickering, and obviously doesn't seem to be changing any hearts... but if you state your opinions on the product where it is being sold, I'm sure it would have a much farther-reaching effect.

People are smart... people will notice.

big_raji

02-25-2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by jbarr
OK Steve, I'm curious. Please explain how you created ZeoPad without "reverse-engineering" the WSilkTaPad skin? You stated yourself that you could not access to the .zip file that contained the .wsb file so you had to "figure it out" yourself and create it from scratch. How is this not reverse-engineering?

Thank God, Jim.

I was getting annoyed at how tolerant you were being to Steve in previous threads.

Not that I like seeing fights (although I do), I much prefer to see someone take pride in his work, and when plagiarism is involved, that pride should involve some dispute of sorts.

stronggeek

02-25-2003, 03:41 PM

In all honesty, when I saw the skin for sale, I mistakenly thought that Jbarr was selling a skin that he had already introduced to the clie community for free and then upon further scrutinizing and and recent posts I realized it was indeed a "copycat". I was actually beginning to wonder if I was expected to pay for a skin that was previously a gift to the clie society. Now I believe I understand. But one question remains unanswered for me. I believe jbarr posted with the skin first. Heck, he introduced this great find (wondersilk) and always gave massive props to the original programer(author). But who came up with this skin version first?

Stronggeek

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by jbarr
OK Steve, I'm curious. Please explain how you created ZeoPad without "reverse-engineering" the WSilkTaPad skin? You stated yourself that you could not access to the .zip file that contained the .wsb file so you had to "figure it out" yourself and create it from scratch. How is this not reverse-engineering?

I meant as in reverse engineering a .wsb file to make your own would be. If I had the wsb file of yours inhand and used it to make my own it wouldn't be right to do. Seeing something and making something like it from scratch isn't. For isntance, seeing a hamburger iwth lettuce, cheese, and tomato on it and making your own to sell isn't illegal. Analyzing it for all ingredients, exact weight of each ingredient, spices, etc. in mg to then resell would be. That's how I understand it from what I've read.

iebnn

02-25-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by T800
Oh!
So now it's clear to me at least.

Filez - a powerful program for the NX - is FREE
Colorize - change the look af ALL your apps - is FREE
ClieSource - a wealth of information and resources for all of us - is FREE
WonderSilk - is FREE
WonderMaker - is FREE

ZeoPad - a skin - however is 9.99.

Is that it, am i on target?

I guess it comes down to personal preference. If I were Sony though, I would have the personal preference to want at least 9.98 dollars for the unlawful use of their Clie trade mark and logo.

Zero respect guys.

T800

Wow, $10? That's really too much for a skin IMHO....

BUT... I'm not saying that your comparison makes sense, and that all skins should be free (this should be up to the creator of the skin). Just because some authors of other applications/web sites made their services free doesn't mean that all other developers have to/should make theirs free as well.

big_raji

02-25-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by eyesee
Remember, everyone has the opportunity to "Review" this product on the PalmGear site.

http://www.palmgear.com/software/reviewnew.cfm?sid=265EE46D-4583-4279-9C24CF9BC97F283D&prodID=47694

Any attempts at justification here amounts to not much more than bickering, and obviously doesn't seem to be changing any hearts... but if you state your opinions on the product where it is being sold, I'm sure it would have a much farther-reaching effect.

People are smart... people will notice.

I don't think Palmgear will post reviews like "This guy is a thief!" or "This skin is FREE on Cliesource!"

Keep it real, and honest. Let's not launch a smear campaign on Palmgear. It's not gonna happen.

cbulock

02-25-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by eyesee
Remember, everyone has the opportunity to "Review" this product on the PalmGear site.

http://www.palmgear.com/software/reviewnew.cfm?sid=265EE46D-4583-4279-9C24CF9BC97F283D&prodID=47694

Any attempts at justification here amounts to not much more than bickering, and obviously doesn't seem to be changing any hearts... but if you state your opinions on the product where it is being sold, I'm sure it would have a much farther-reaching effect.

People are smart... people will notice.

PalmGear censors the reviews. They won't put up really bad ones. They might not even put up any negitive ones at all.

iebnn

02-25-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger

 

Reverse engineering is illegal. Violators will be prosecuted by most... copying and giving for free is illegal, just like warez is. Do you want to support warez?

Okay.... so you define looking at your work and making something that resembles your work to be reverse engineering.... and you say it's illegal.... yet you made a skin that you are SELLING based on an image of a free skin (as opposed to making a free skin based on a commercial skin even!), and that is fine?

iebnn

02-25-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by oneeyesquare
I don't believe for one minute that he reassembled the skin from a screen shot of Jbarr's Tappad02. C'mon!!!! How gullible do you think we are? Drop and drag, add an icon or two, put it up for sale on Palmgear (misrepresnting what it is...)
I'd consider paying for original artwork, if it wow'ed my socks off. The Wondermaker app is easy to learn. The learning curve on Paint Shop Pro 8 hurts... Still I'm on my 4th personalized and functional skin...
I'm gonna call mine ZetaLauncher 1.2322...:p

Nice! PSP8! /me goes to jasc.com and downloads

thanks :D

big_raji

02-25-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by cbulock

PalmGear censors the reviews. They won't put up really bad ones. They might not even put up any negitive ones at all.

There's already a negative one up there. It's not blatantly negative, like a smear campaign type of comment. It's real... and honest.

rldunn

02-25-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger

I meant as in reverse engineering a .wsb file to make your own would be. If I had the wsb file of yours inhand and used it to make my own it wouldn't be right to do. Seeing something and making something like it from scratch isn't. For isntance, seeing a hamburger iwth lettuce, cheese, and tomato on it and making your own to sell isn't illegal. Analyzing it for all ingredients, exact weight of each ingredient, spices, etc. in mg to then resell would be. That's how I understand it from what I've read. "Something like it". Your skin is 99% identical to jbarr's. I'm glad you chose a narrow definition of reverse engineering to suit your needs. :rolleyes:

jbarr

02-25-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
I meant as in reverse engineering a .wsb file to make your own would be. If I had the wsb file of yours inhand and used it to make my own it wouldn't be right to do. Seeing something and making something like it from scratch isn't. For isntance, seeing a hamburger iwth lettuce, cheese, and tomato on it and making your own to sell isn't illegal. Analyzing it for all ingredients, exact weight of each ingredient, spices, etc. in mg to then resell would be. That's how I understand it from what I've read. Just so we're all on the same page here, you are saying that if I had your ZeoPad.wsb file in hand and I used it to make my own skin and sell it, that wouldn't be right to do, but if took the image of your ZeoPad Skin from your PalmGear listing and created an identical skin save several button changes from scratch, then I have created an original work, for which you deserve no credit, and I can profit off of it?

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 04:25 PM

A smear campaign is just not right. That's like smearing all Bejewelled clones, or Tealdoc for being "nearly identical" to Wordsmith. Similar software emerges from time to time... that's no reason to hate it. No one is forcing you to buy my software. If you don't like the idea of it, don't buy it :). I don't want anyone to be dissatisfied.

eyesee

02-25-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by big_raji

I don't think Palmgear will post reviews like "This guy is a thief!" or "This skin is FREE on Cliesource!"

Keep it real, and honest. Let's not launch a smear campaign on Palmgear. It's not gonna happen.

Excuse me, your inference is misguided.  Please don't assume that I am rallying people to begin a "smear campaign" on PalmGear.  It is quite obvious that I in no way insinuated such.  Rather, I believe it would be of benefit to review the product in question with legitimate and provable facts which may be of interest to a potential buyer.  I would not want to blindly purchase any product without knowing certain important facts (customer support, legality, etc.), and I don't believe the average consumer would either.

Donkeystyle

02-25-2003, 04:36 PM

it was pretty funny when goldentiger was "a beta tester" for zeopad, not the creator. Now he is admitting he created it. He didnt reverse engineer jbarrs..... any other lies?

aoijun

02-25-2003, 04:36 PM

I believe that jbarr (providing that he has proof he created the skin 1st) is granted copywrite of the skin under intelectual property. If a court would prove that this zeowhatchamacallit skin is more than 30% original, then tiger holds a copywrite of his own. IMO this skin is sufficiently below 30% so i say if jbarr wants it off he has all right. also IMO if the wondersilk creator said nothing about skins produced with his app, then it's legal to sell the skins.

jbarr

02-25-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
A smear campaign is just not right. That's like smearing all Bejewelled clones, or Tealdoc for being "nearly identical" to Wordsmith. Similar software emerges from time to time... that's no reason to hate it. No one is forcing you to buy my software. If you don't like the idea of it, don't buy it :). I don't want anyone to be dissatisfied. The difference is that the clone authors acknowledge where they got the inspiration for their clones. You have blatently refused to admit that you got the design concept and layout from my WSilkTaPad skin. You continue to claim that your design is original when, in fact, it is nothing more than a derivative of WSilkTaPad. You are the one profiting from my work. Yes, you may have had to re-create everything from "scratch" but you still used my design as the model.

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 04:43 PM

iebnn

02-25-2003, 04:50 PM

Heh, the graphics weren't inspired from jbarr's work? Are you sure?

mdharris

02-25-2003, 04:52 PM

Welcome to the free market..... The funny thing is none of this stuff is copyrighted as of yet so skinning can be recreated numerous times. Nothing can stop someone from copying a skin and seeling it for $5.00 less then what the original maker charges. Skinning is like making wallpaper for a computer and IMHO should not be something you charge for but done for fun or in some cases advertisement.

rldunn

02-25-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by mdharris
Welcome to the free market..... The funny thing is none of this stuff is copyrighted as of yet so skinning can be recreated numerous times. Actually, that's not true. You don't have to apply for a copyright; it's not like a patent. You make a work of art in whatever form, you own the copyright.

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 05:04 PM

As long as someone is using the graphics that are included with WonderMaker, the skins are nobody's to sell. This is like me charging money for clip art from MS Word.

aoijun

02-25-2003, 05:13 PM

I had an internet programming teacher who said that any intellectual property published on the net has what she refered to a "poor mans copyright" She said that if you create something be it graphic, html code, or other intelectual property, others are not allowed to take it and use it for profit without your permision. She also went on to say the cheapest way to prove you created it first is to seal it in an envelope, mail it to yourself and never open it. the post mark is a valid way to prove when you made it.

jfaulken

02-25-2003, 05:31 PM

I think GoldenTiger missed my point... I actually don't understand what he thought I was getting at. All I was suggesting was that anyone who wanted to could make a better skin and put ZeoThingy out of business. Since what's been done is technically within the letter of the law, fight it by doing something better rather than by tearing down what's been done. You'll improve the scene for everyone else (now there's a better choice available that's not a pathetic rip-off) and you've also (hopefully) made it more difficult for the thief to make any money.

- John

Donkeystyle

02-25-2003, 07:01 PM

GoldenTiger's last post was edited out... earlier he was offering to give Jbarr credit. Has he withdrawn the offer?

2nd zeopad is not within the letter of the law. It used the clie trademark AND jbarr's intellectual property.

iebnn

02-25-2003, 07:19 PM

AND the graphics from the freeware wondermaker

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 07:48 PM

The graphics were distributed as freeware (I modified them a bit to give them a bevelled edge) and came without anything saying they could not be used. Therefore, to the full extent of my knowledge, they are open source.

OcellNuri

02-25-2003, 08:16 PM

Looking at my launcher on my Clie here, those icons that came with WonderMaker were actually developed by Sony. I am certain that they would claim property of the images. I bet I could get in some trouble with Microsoft if I start putting the Xbox logo on Tshirts and selling them. Even if I did bevel the edges a bit...

ayasin

02-25-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by OcellNuri
Looking at my launcher on my Clie here, those icons that came with WonderMaker were actually developed by Sony. I am certain that they would claim property of the images. I bet I could get in some trouble with Microsoft if I start putting the Xbox logo on Tshirts and selling them. Even if I did bevel the edges a bit...

Only because the xbox logo is a trademark and if they don't enforce their trademark (either by consenting to your using it or sending you a cease and desist letter) I'm pretty sure they lose it.

PS I'm not a lawyer, just my understanding

NR70V-o-holic

02-25-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by OcellNuri
I imagine he hasn't been responding because he's been working on this. At least it looks to be an original. http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=6A664349-9CB7-46DC-AE3D933C38F38495&prodID=47733

This is a good example of the very, very poor quality of the
developers ability to design. Without looking at jbarrs Design,
he would never been able to develop the Zeopad Deluxe.

Steve or GT you are absolutely incapable and in your allover
behavior dishonourable!

Noh

jbarr

02-25-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
The graphics were distributed as freeware (I modified them a bit to give them a bevelled edge) and came without anything saying they could not be used. Therefore, to the full extent of my knowledge, they are open source. First of all, ot all the all the graphics were freeware as such. As I have stated several times, three of the common graphic elements were not part of Koby's distribution as they appear in both skins. The Clie logo as it is included in both skins was created by me. I modified one of Kobe's images to create the one tha is in both skins. The up/down arrows were also modified by me from Koby's originals.

But let's not stop there. What about the entire layout with the exception of the two buttons you added. The placement of every element is exactly as I designed them. Steve, just stop the lies.

GoldenTiger

02-25-2003, 10:26 PM

I am not lying. The base buttons I used and changed a little were included with the wondersilk download which is freeware. If you download wondersilk today, they're still in there...

oneeyesquare

02-25-2003, 11:06 PM

GT,
Are you in any way related to Bill Clinton????

Cuz it was sex and you stole Jbarr's design (among other things...)!

Edit to add: While reading thru the "read-me's" that came with "Wondermaker", they recommended if you plan to distribute a skin and don't want it messed with to load it onto your Clie with Kinu-maru, and then extract the .prc with Cliefiles (or comparable) and distribute the .prc. Moral of this story is, if you have a really nice skin you'd like to share but don't want cloned, .prc distribute it...

*YellowRose*

02-26-2003, 07:20 AM

*YellowRose*

02-26-2003, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
A smear campaign is just not right.Riiiiiiiight.  Plagarism is not right either, bucko.  You think you can rip off/hurt people and get paid for it in the Clie community?  Did you have a PDA during the great Agendus (Action Names Datebook) scandal?   You need to learn what happened, if you weren't.  Talk about ticking people off....and you're heading the same direction.

n2ifp

02-26-2003, 07:28 AM

I have a headache...

jbarr

02-26-2003, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
I am not lying. The base buttons I used and changed a little were included with the wondersilk download which is freeware. If you download wondersilk today, they're still in there... OK, I'll play along. Please tell us all what the filename for the Clie Graffiti graphic is and what the filenames for the hard up/down buttons are. These graphic elements, as they appear in both skins, appear unaltered nowhere in any distribution. Please specify.

OcellNuri

02-26-2003, 11:16 AM

Yea Steve... please share these file names. I want to include the Clie Graffiti graphic in my own skin, but I can't find the graphic file in Wondermaker. Could you point me to it? I mean... it IS included right?

GoldenTiger

02-26-2003, 12:37 PM

It is linked to from the english download page/instructions that the author released under the "graffiti pack" link. The Sony Clie(tm) logo can be gotten from Sony's developer pages.

cbulock

02-26-2003, 12:50 PM

Are you talking about the GraffitiAreaSet file? If so, I don't see the background you are talking about.

aoijun

02-26-2003, 12:52 PM

One of my biggest problems with this is his description makes it sound like it is a program that you are buying. If i didnt know that wonderskin is a skin making program that is running this skin, I would think that i'd be paying for a program in the same sense as buying wonderskin itself. His description is very vague on what this "product" (i use this term loosely) really is and IMO is extremely misleading.

jbarr

02-26-2003, 01:02 PM

To speak to the original issue. after a lengthy discussion with Steve Smith (GoldenTiger) and the folks at PalmGear, Steve has agreed to include the following text in his documentation and in the PalmGear listing of the "ZeoPad Deluxe" skin:

"This skin design was inspired by the WSilkTaPad/WS-TaPad-02 skin designed by Jim Barr found at the WonderSilkSkins Web Site."

In return, I have granted permission to PalmGear to re-list the skin for sale. I find this to be a reasonable solution because my intention all along was never to receive any compensation or profit from this issue, but only to be credited with being the original skin designer. Steve and I have both agreed to this, and the skin as once again listed for sale at PalmGear.

This issue has prompted heated discussion on many fronts, and I feel that in the end, while it has been frustrating and discouraging, it has been very enlighteneing and educational. I thank you all for your input and support, and I thank Steve for being agreeable to giving me due credit.

Again, thanks for listening!

-Jim Barr
jim@barr.net
www.WonderSilkSkins.com

Blazefire

02-26-2003, 01:17 PM

Now that the situation has been defused, we can now focus on bothering developers and Sony for CF drivers again! Yay!

iebnn

02-27-2003, 04:59 PM

Bothering developers isn't going to get you anything :( Be polite, and don't flood :)

iebnn

02-27-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by GoldenTiger
The graphics were distributed as freeware (I modified them a bit to give them a bevelled edge) and came without anything saying they could not be used. Therefore, to the full extent of my knowledge, they are open source.

You can't take open source stuff and sell something that used parts of something open source.... But I get what you meant.