1src Forums - Call to developers - Sound API for Clie NX/NZ/TG released

ilkera

03-22-2004, 01:04 PM

Now that Sound API for Clie NX/NZ/TG (aka MCA- Modern-Clie-Audio) is released (by CliePet)
We should begin informing developers of sound applications.

We should urge them to update their applications so that they will support all OS 5 Clie models.

Here are the links related with the project:
Website:
http://www.aibohack.com/clie/modclieaud.htm
Discussion thread: (for Developers)
http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45899

Other discussion threads:
http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45133

Let's make a list of developers to inform.....

mcowger

03-22-2004, 01:06 PM

NormSoft, for Pocket Tunes!

ilkera

03-22-2004, 01:17 PM

I think we should also have a news thread about this.

jpolz

03-22-2004, 01:54 PM

I've notified Kalemsoft, the makers of NesEm, Gizmo, and DreamEngine.

mcowger

03-22-2004, 02:10 PM

I'm also gonna talk to the MMPlayer guys.

Tixx

03-22-2004, 02:12 PM

Cool:)

madmaxmedia

03-22-2004, 02:25 PM

I posted on the MMPlayer forums, please reply on the thread asking for support-

http://www.mmplayer.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=955

MMPlayer is really starting to come along, I would love to see playback on the NX screen, I wonder what best resolution will be achievable...

ilkera

03-22-2004, 03:11 PM

please also inform us on this thread if any of these applications get updated with MCA api.

magnus

03-22-2004, 04:31 PM

So now that the Api's are released, would it be possible to have streaming audio from the net?

what are some of the other possibliities?

meir87

03-22-2004, 04:40 PM

Streaming audio would require some type of netfront plugin to be created so I doubt it.

mcowger

03-22-2004, 05:03 PM

Actually, we probably could, because PocketTunes can do this on the TH55 because it uses the PalmOS sound APIs.

meir87

03-22-2004, 05:17 PM

I don't think it streams then. It actually downloads it and plays it.

cbulock

03-22-2004, 05:21 PM

Actually, Pocket Tunes can play Shoutcast streams. It would be pretty cool if we cool get that on the NX. :)

CliePet

03-22-2004, 05:32 PM

re: streaming audio

Streaming audio data to the playback hardware was always possible with the Palm OS 5.1 and later (eg: UX and TH). With MCA it is now possible with the Palm OS 5.0 NX/NZ/TG devices.

It is up to the program to decide how it will get the data (eg: over WiFi). A program (eg: Pocket Tunes) should be able to get the data from the WiFi connection and stream it to the MCA XSndStream API just like it does to the existing SndStream API.

I'm not sure how NetFront does streaming audio.

meir87

03-22-2004, 05:36 PM

One of the few times I am happy to have been wrong :D

volcanopele

03-22-2004, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by mcowger
NormSoft, for Pocket Tunes! I posted on their Yahoo Groups mailing list regarding the API release

madmaxmedia

03-22-2004, 07:39 PM

Good news from the MMPlayer dev:

Yes, I've gotten a few pointers to that site now. It looks like a bolt-on operation, I'll try it out pretty soon.

If I see anything new, I'll make sure to post here.

fjl307

03-22-2004, 09:17 PM

This is awesome! I can't wait to play AAC and Ogg files on my CLIE. It's the people in the forum that make the difference. :)

anitanium

03-22-2004, 10:18 PM

and then watch as leecher suddenly start posting request for the new software and spam the boards, never to return until another "cool" update

Forest_Noggle

03-22-2004, 11:48 PM

Don't forget Wave Edit Pro!

ragermac

03-23-2004, 09:08 AM

I just hope to one day have a mp3 player that plays ogg as well and has cool skins and visualizations.

I hope, I hope.

Spyroledragon

03-23-2004, 10:45 AM

i informed the developpers of "snails", the best palmos game in my opinion.

They told me it was awesome, and they are already working on it...

tovarish

03-23-2004, 11:11 AM

finally i can say that my NX is can do everything that other pdas can do, it was really a sore point with me the absence of a sound api.

tovarish

hwolfejr

03-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Here's the response from Wave Edit Pro:

Looks very interesting! Unforunately (from the help file):

* The 2nd parameter must be 'sndOutput'. 'sndInput' is not supported.

Which means you wouldn't be able to record in the program. Do you think NX/NR users would still be interested?

Support
NewBornGear

Let's let them hear from us.
Also, Cliepet, can you do anything about the record input?

Great work!!!!!!!

zackepceo

03-23-2004, 12:44 PM

WOW what big news

kaysclie

03-23-2004, 01:10 PM

I don't know if this is a realistic or related question, but is it possible that with this new work by Cliepet, that we that subscribe to audible.com would be able to download those files with this?

cbulock

03-23-2004, 01:32 PM

It's possible, but Audible would have to add this into there Palm player.

spidey

03-23-2004, 02:55 PM

FYI Concerning Audible:
http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45500

madmaxmedia

03-23-2004, 03:04 PM

Well, if they utilize CLIEPet's API, then the sound quality should definitely improve!

ilkera

03-23-2004, 04:37 PM

CliePet,

what do you say about the Sound API input ?
Can you do something about recording ?
You had once created an application which records sound on Clie NX. Is it possible to add input support to your API ?

kaysclie

03-23-2004, 05:42 PM

Spidey,
Thanks for the info about audible.com

CliePet

03-23-2004, 06:34 PM

> what do you say about the Sound API input ?

Anything is possible in software. There are far more sound output apps that could benefit from the M-C-A API. That is the current focus.

BTW: There is already a CPX helper class for voice recording. It works, with some caveats, for the NX/NZ devices, but only records 4 bit ADPCM samples. It is not ideal, but apparently not too many are clamoring for it.
http://www.aibohack.com/clie/cpx.htm

nowis

03-23-2004, 08:43 PM

This is amazing, i have been using my NX70 and hoping for lotz of things to happen... The first was the CF slot and then the programs which actually supports it...

now with finger crossed i will be able to use third party sound production software MP3... Games which actually stream sound!!

HOORAH!!

hwolfejr

03-24-2004, 12:21 AM

Here is Aeroplayer replyHerman,

Thanks for the tip. We're already aware of the modclieaud project and
are considering how to best implement it.

--

Best regards,
Aerodrome Support

http://www.aerodrome.us

Aerodrome Web Support wrote:

> 03/22/2004
> Name: Herman Wolfe
> Email Address: hwolfejr@bellsouth.net
> Product: AeroPlayer
> Device Type: Other
> Version: 2.11.1
> Language: English
> Format: Both

hwolfejr

03-24-2004, 11:32 AM

Here's the reply from Pocket Tunes:

Thanks for the feedback. We're looking into this API and will try to support it as soon as we can.

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with!

Take care,
Tim

For customer support, please include the entire text of this email when replying so we can help you more quickly.

NormSoft, Inc.
www.normsoft.com

galaxygrrl

03-24-2004, 02:50 PM

Hi all!

My name is Beth and I'm a marketing manager at Audible.

First, thanks for everyone who is using Audible! :D

I just wanted to pop in and say we are now supporting all OS4 andOS5 CLIEs.

We know about the passable sound quaility on the O4 CLIEs. The issue with the sound quality has to do with the processor of those CLIEs and the support that Sony offered us. We did the best we can do with what we had to work with from Sony Corporate.

Cheers,

Beth

jpolz

03-24-2004, 03:13 PM

Tixx

03-24-2004, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by galaxygrrl
Hi all!

My name is Beth and I'm a marketing manager at Audible.

First, thanks for everyone who is using Audible! :D

I just wanted to pop in and say we are now supporting all OS4 andOS5 CLIEs.

We know about the passable sound quaility on the O4 CLIEs. The issue with the sound quality has to do with the processor of those CLIEs and the support that Sony offered us. We did the best we can do with what we had to work with from Sony Corporate.

Cheers,

Beth

So right now, this will in fact work on a Clie NX70?

Your website states:

" Sony Clie
Listen to Audible on any audio capable Sony CLIÉ® handheld running Palm OS 5.2 including the UX-40/50 series and audio enabled TJ35 series CLIÉs. Store hours and hours of Audible content on internal memory (on the UX only) or Memory Sticks so you can take your programs with you and enjoy them wherever you are. All supported CLIÉ handhelds can play Audible formats 2 and 3 and hold up to 64 hours of programming using a 256MB Memory Stick."

No mention of the NX70 running os 5.0.

Tixx

03-24-2004, 03:36 PM

Sorry, minimum $180 a year or $119 for just the player software. I'm passing, but for people interested I guess you could answer that previous question.

meir87

03-24-2004, 04:31 PM

So has any developer made use of the API yet??? They don't have an excuse anymore.

anitanium

03-24-2004, 06:22 PM

i think it takes a while to implement the new code

ilkera

03-24-2004, 06:33 PM

yeah, where are they now ?
I am not a developer but I had written some small apps in the past. As far as I understand from the help document on CliePet's site making use of the API is not very difficult.
Just a small change in the source...

Where are all sound app developers now ?

ilkera

03-24-2004, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by anitanium
i think it takes a while to implement the new code

It shouldn't take so much time.
I believe, if I had the source code of any of those apps, I could update them in 1-2 hours, although I don't know any palm programming.
adding that, they could do it in a few minutes as they are the owner of the original code.

SHaubner

03-24-2004, 07:54 PM

Would the knowledge contained in this code allow a developer to create an application that would allow *non*-Sony Sound API Clies (UX-50, TH-55, etc) to play polyphonic sounds and alarms?

This would be great to fix the other side of the equation!

rcxAsh

03-24-2004, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by ilkera

It shouldn't take so much time.
I believe, if I had the source code of any of those apps, I could update them in 1-2 hours, although I don't know any palm programming.
adding that, they could do it in a few minutes as they are the owner of the original code.
Yah, I agree with you. However, it may be taking longer because the developers may be analyzing the full possibilities that could occur for them using unofficial APIs. I'm not sure what would entail (as I know nothing about the laws regarding reverse engineering), but I'm guessing that one thing could be that the developers need to test their newly compiled software, or, they want to redesign certain portions of the code to allow the same binary to run on either API set.

But at anyrate, thanks and great job CliePet! Once again, some great work! I really can't wait till your API gets implemented in mainstream applications!

madmaxmedia

03-25-2004, 01:00 AM

Well, they still have to make sure that there are no crashes or bugs after implementing, etc...

I wasn't expecting anything so fast, but the apps will come!

ilkera

03-25-2004, 10:34 AM

From: Tim Norman <tim@pocket-tunes.com> <Adresi kaydet>
Subject: RE: Sound API for Clie models

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's harder than that; there's quite a bit involved to make the changes to
our core source code, and there's a lot of testing we will have to do, and
we'll have to purchase some more devices (we don't have any of those Sony
models). So it's going to be at least a month or two before we get it
going.

Let me know if there's anything else I can help with!

Take care,
Tim

For customer support, please include the entire text of this email when
replying so we can help you more quickly.

NormSoft, Inc.
www.normsoft.com

Well, here is what I received from Pocket Tunes developer.
I told them that they do not need to buy any new devices to test, as there would be many willing Clie owners for beta testing.

But I guess they are not as interested as we are, on this.
1 or 2 months ? phew , that's a long time.
I may be prefering AeroPlayer or MMPlayer then...

CliePet

03-25-2004, 11:14 AM

SHaubner wrote:
> Would the knowledge contained in this code allow a developer to create an application that would allow *non*-Sony Sound API Clies (UX-50, TH-55, etc) to play polyphonic sounds and alarms?

Not really.
It is possible for someone to write their own sound synthesizer (in software). They could have done that before with the official 'SndStream' API for the UX and TH (and Tungsten and other PalmOS devices)

The common audio playback is either very lame beeps or sampled audio.

------
re: It's Thursday, where are the Apps ?

Product development doesn't happen overnight.
It's up to the individual companies to decide if/when it is important to them. Also the SDK has only been out for a few days now.
(FWIW: I have received ZERO questions or comments so far from developers since the SDK release, so either they are all working on it quietly, or haven't touched it yet -- probably the latter ;-)

Keep the pressure on the companies in question. They can't blame the technology anymore ;->

anitanium

03-25-2004, 11:14 AM

i wanna test! i wanna test!
damnit, i'll PAY them to test!!

hwolfejr

03-25-2004, 11:20 AM

I'll keep e-mailing each week.
We need to get more forum involvement for an outcry!

Thanks again CliePet!!!!!!!

We want our music... we want our music... we want our music!!!

ilkera

03-25-2004, 12:22 PM

well, the pocket tunes development says they'll be late.
what about others ?
mmplayer ?
aeroplayer ?
audible ?
shoutcast ?
others ???

hwolfejr

03-25-2004, 12:34 PM

I've heard from aeroplayer, mmplayer and pocket tunes
Also Wave Edit Pro

See posts to this thread.

Audible seems to be a book club?

djpm05

03-25-2004, 09:51 PM

wow:O I hadn't been on these forums for a while because of car issues (aka i got my car and have working on modding it..haha) So I come back to see what's going on to find that the same guy who made my clie a webcam, and who made my clie use CF had made a sound API :O

you have my respect even more so than you did. which was a LOT before:)

Regards,
David King

Tixx

03-26-2004, 12:32 PM

Bump.

Ford78Tank

03-26-2004, 01:55 PM

I'm not sure how NetFront does streaming audio.

It doesn't.

zackepceo

03-26-2004, 03:41 PM

You could write a small netfront MIME plugin to tell it to download the streaming files to a temporary file on the MS card and tell the audio program to play that streaming file.

McMagnus

03-26-2004, 04:46 PM

Don't expect rock solid non-crashable playing, but you might wanna try:

http://mmplayer.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=955&start=13

madmaxmedia

03-26-2004, 06:58 PM

Wow, that was fast! My feedback so far on my NX80 (will also post on MMPlayer board)-

1. MP3's play fine, will play throught headphones later to compare audio quality with Sony player.
2. Low bitrate Doom 3 trailer played fine.
3. High bitrate ZZTop video plays, but choppy. This seems likely to be more than the NX80 can handle, at 200 Mhz. Haven't overclocked it or anything like that.

(files stored on CompactFlash card, will try MS later)

Anyone else?

glassman

03-26-2004, 07:23 PM

No go on my NX70V. Anyone else have luck with NX70V?

The program wouldn't run at all from MS. A few pulldowns were available when I moved to internal mem.

Blazefire

03-26-2004, 07:39 PM

Unfortunately, there's only 2 of the 4 necessary files required in that zip. Read the manual and you'll see. I had to find the other two files elsewhere.

Haven't tried video yet, but there were quite a few audio bugs in the player. Too numerous really to list, but since this is a beta I'll leave the complaints for later.

mcowger

03-26-2004, 09:26 PM

The Doom 3 trailer worked fine for me on my NX60....

djpm05

03-27-2004, 01:16 AM

I just tried mp3's on my NX70, and for some reason when playing a file after about 51 seconds the volume goes way down, i stopped the file, and played it again and moved the track bar and it was alright, but about a minute later, there goes the volume, and it changes the visualization as well to almost no sound..haha what a weird problem:-P it's even a linear fade down, so it seem intentional. I also have the locking problem after the song plays. Also when you progress to the next song, the visualization from the previous song stays there. then next song you have both of the lines. the volume of course, and panning doesn't work. also playing sabotage.avi doesn't work, i get a fatal exception. but mp3's work with the expection of those few bugs, and that is awesome:-D the doom 3 trailer does work, but if you go to full screen mode, and then back try to click out, it will freeze, it seems to be ok if you wait a while before you click. the brightness and contrast both work you just can't hold it for too long or it will give you a "bitrate too high" message. That's what i've figured out so far:) hope that helps some

McMagnus

03-27-2004, 01:58 AM

Yes, the volume decrease is intentional, a.k.a. a trialware nag.

BTW, if you have some kind of internet connection you can try to stream audio/video. Just select URL in the top-right corner of the file selection dialog and type the URL. But for streaming, you probably need to increase the buffers in the settings dialog, also note the prebuffer settings.

Sensei

03-27-2004, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by McMagnus
Yes, the volume decrease is intentional, a.k.a. a trialware nag.

BTW, if you have some kind of internet connection you can try to stream audio/video. Just select URL in the top-right corner of the file selection dialog and type the URL. But for streaming, you probably need to increase the buffers in the settings dialog, also note the prebuffer settings.

I can't seem to find a link to stream any audio/video. I tried using the url tp download the T3 trailer off mmplayer's website, I think it attempted to save it on the onboard memory. The wifi indicator flased constantly for a few minutes before it stopped. Then it crashed. The T3 trailer works fine when I save it to MS and play it from there.
Mp3 plays fine here, except that intentional volume decrease. Just wish I can control the volume.
Thanks

RivyBeAsT

03-27-2004, 11:31 AM

Volume control would be really nice.. I made the mistake of playing a tune with my earbuds on. I thought my brain was going to melt.

Other than that, it played mp3's and the low bitrate demo videos fine. The visualization needs some work though.. lots of artifacts.

djpm05

03-27-2004, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by McMagnus
Yes, the volume decrease is intentional, a.k.a. a trialware nag.

BTW, if you have some kind of internet connection you can try to stream audio/video. Just select URL in the top-right corner of the file selection dialog and type the URL. But for streaming, you probably need to increase the buffers in the settings dialog, also note the prebuffer settings.

Haha i'm really glad that is the problem, I was going to ask how that would happen.. also, when streaming, what would you put as the location? lets say i want to stream the deephouse128k stream from www.di.fm how would i go about that? would i put the ip it gives me in winamp? or the .pls file? or what?

thank you for all the help:)

-David

McMagnus

03-27-2004, 02:54 PM

It doesn't support Shoutcast (or any other "real" streaming format) yet, but you can stream mp3 (or avi) by simply entering the URL to the file.

ilkera

03-27-2004, 03:26 PM

this is great news. when will we have a possible bugfree version ?

djpm05

03-27-2004, 08:15 PM

I do a lot of sound work, mainly in sound forge 7, is there any way i could help?:)

also just a side note, i can stream music to the clie, and other the the buffering, it works perfectly:-P I am curious, where does the file save? to a memory card or to the memory on the clie itself?

-David

McMagnus

03-28-2004, 01:46 AM

It saves in the packet buffers for now (size can be set in the settings dialog). I plan to add an option to save to memory card later.

katana

03-28-2004, 05:01 AM

Lot's of "di di di di di" bg noice for me
my NX70V's problem ??
the volume control don't work at all
and ALWAYS halt when finish playing a song

maybe I hard reset and try later

trayip

03-28-2004, 07:49 PM

bump....what about the other developers (AEROPLAYER!!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!)

hwolfejr

03-29-2004, 01:46 PM

ITS NICE TO HEAR OTHER MUSIC FROM SOFTWARE BESIDES AUDIOPLAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good work MMPlayer !!!! can't wait!!!
Look's like you'll be the first out of the gate!

Herman

meir87

03-29-2004, 03:50 PM

Mapopolis has released a beta with the new api. I started a thread about it here: http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=542149#post542149

hwolfejr

03-29-2004, 05:08 PM

Microbe with NX/NR support coming soon!!!!!

This from Olivier, under development now

anitanium

03-29-2004, 05:51 PM

WOW
MMplayer actually plays..
thats amazing!
i get a weird "vibration" noises in the background though
hope they fix it

Unregistered

03-29-2004, 06:42 PM

Hi,

This is Olivier - the developer of Microbe.

As you know, a big part of Microbe was written using HB++. Not that I don't know C, but I don't want to spend hours programming UI and logic stuff. The big, big drawback of HB++ is that static libs can't be used, but it is a common situation with most of the non-C (and even non-Code Warrior) development tools.

I am currently trying to turn the MCA into a shared lib. It does not work (yet)... If developers who have more experience than me on this kind of stuff could check what I have done, it would increase the chances to have a version working correctly soon... I know at least eight people who would be interested in a shared library supporting both the OS5 streaming sound/Clié. You know, there are a lot of developers who are not at all into audio and low-level stuff, but who need audio support for games, dictionaries, educational software etc... Most of these people have no other alternatives to high-level language, so a shared lib would do definately the trick...

Olivier.

Egalus

03-30-2004, 02:22 AM

Just a question from someone who never progammed for palmos, what is hb++? ;)

Unregistered

03-30-2004, 03:46 AM

Hi,

HB++ is a programming language for PalmOS at first glance very similar to VB (eeeeewwwwww) but with a real compiler. For a music application logic and interface, it does not make a lot of differences with C in terms of speed except that it is 10 times faster and easier to develop ; and a bliss to debug... The only drawback is that its linker does not read the format of some static libs (a few C compilers sometimes don't), even if you can call API functions or functions in Shared Libs.

Olivier.

CliePet

03-30-2004, 12:36 PM

http://www.aibohack.com/clie/modclieaud.htm

Well MCA version 1 is now over 1 week old, and not too many developers have adapted their apps (kudos to MMPlayer)

In an attempt to make it easier for developers: MCA version 1 is now obsolete.

MCA version 2 is coming soon. It will provide a system trap interface to greatly reduce the amount of work necessary for developers [and ideally in some cases require no additional work]

If you have a SndStream app that you know uses an ARM callback, please send me an email (cliepet@aibohack.com). 68K callbacks will take a little longer.

ilkera

03-30-2004, 12:58 PM

This is great news again from you CliePet.

Btw, some developers and their beta testers report that they hear "click" sounds in the background when they are streaming sound. Do you know the cause of this problem ?

CliePet

03-30-2004, 04:05 PM

ARM callbacks are working rather well, including Olivier's Microbe
[no source changes required]

Every so often it starts playing with clicks, other times it is fine.

> some developers and their beta testers report that they hear "click" sounds in the background when they are streaming sound....

It happens on my NZ90 every few times. There are several things I want to try (rearranging the buffering callbacks). It is on my list to look at after I get the 68K callback version working (most SndStream apps I've downloaded use the 68K callback version)

Unregistered

03-30-2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by CliePet
http://www.aibohack.com/clie/modclieaud.htm

Well MCA version 1 is now over 1 week old, and not too many developers have adapted their apps (kudos to MMPlayer)

In an attempt to make it easier for developers: MCA version 1 is now obsolete.

MCA version 2 is coming soon. It will provide a system trap interface to greatly reduce the amount of work necessary for developers [and ideally in some cases require no additional work]

If you have a SndStream app that you know uses an ARM callback, please send me an email (cliepet@aibohack.com). 68K callbacks will take a little longer.
Cliepet,
This sounds good and does look like something that would help wider adoption of the APIs.
Thanks a great deal for your continued effort in helping the Clie community with the MCA.
BTW, Mapopolis already put out a Beta of their Navigator 1.34 based on MCA 1. Do you think it would be a big change for them to move from MCA 1 to MCA 2.

GrantMaster

03-31-2004, 04:42 AM

cool!

ilkera

04-01-2004, 10:03 AM

Any word from developers ?
I know that developer of Pocket Tunes will be working on it in April. But he's not very interested in it. He says "some time in April"

CliePet

04-01-2004, 12:44 PM

> Any word from developers ?

This is becoming a moot point.

With MCA2 (alpha coming this weekend) you can install it yourself, and many released apps will 'just work'

So far the following apps work for me:
+ Microbe
+ Snails
+ AeroPlayer (including background, with caveats)
+ PocketTunes (including background, with caveats)
(Mapopolis is using a different technique so they don't apply)

The music player apps sometimes crash when going from one track to another. That's a problem in the way I am tricking the 68K callback buffers. I will hopefully get these fixed before the alpha.
Programs with ARM callbacks appear to work flawlessly except for the infrequent click problems.

mcowger

04-01-2004, 01:43 PM

CliePet,

That sounds awesome - good work. You think MMPlayer will work?

--Matt

jpolz

04-01-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by CliePet
> Any word from developers ?

This is becoming a moot point.

With MCA2 (alpha coming this weekend) you can install it yourself, and many released apps will 'just work'

So far the following apps work for me:
+ Microbe
+ Snails
+ AeroPlayer (including background, with caveats)
+ PocketTunes (including background, with caveats)
(Mapopolis is using a different technique so they don't apply)

The music player apps sometimes crash when going from one track to another. That's a problem in the way I am tricking the 68K callback buffers. I will hopefully get these fixed before the alpha.
Programs with ARM callbacks appear to work flawlessly except for the infrequent click problems.

This sounds awesome, my only question is how much processing overhead is associated with this kind of intermediate step?

mcowger

04-01-2004, 03:08 PM

Given that its a callback intercept, he's probably just* modifying the jump tables somewhere and running it through his API - which we have seen doesn't take much power. My guess is the effect will be negligible.

*I say just not because i think its easy, but because jump table mods dont take processing power

CliePet

04-01-2004, 05:09 PM

> You think MMPlayer will work?

The latest official release of MMPlayer (not the special MCA V1 beta version) appears to detect the NX/NZ/TG devices and uses the 4 bit ADPCM interface [ie. it is too smart for its own good ;-]

This was a similar problem with AeroPlayer (but I can hack around that). These apps detect the older NX/NZ/TG devices as special cases.

Now with MCA2, apps must first test for the SoundManager (using the official FtrGet) and if present use it [ie. *before* any special case NX/NZ/TG cases]

----
> my only question is how much processing overhead is associated with this kind of intermediate step?

As pointed out it is mostly a mapping layer for APIs.
The time intensive portion (formatting the data to store in the buffer) is the same.

The throughput should be on par with the official Palm OS 5.2+ implementation (eg: in the UX/TH or T3 ignoring CPU differences)
There are other limitations (eg: only 16 bit audio, no input, only one sound output program working at a time)

ilkera

04-01-2004, 05:10 PM

This is the greatest REAL good news I received today.
Awesome !!!
I hope tomorrow everyone receives better and better news.

Unregistered

04-01-2004, 05:27 PM

cliepet, have you tested it with astraware games that support music?

volcanopele

04-01-2004, 05:29 PM

NPEO

04-01-2004, 06:40 PM

When will Microbe be available for us NX users? And the other programs that work with the new API, is there any news on their release for those of us who have put off buying a new clie because we've been waiting for this day.

CliePet

04-01-2004, 08:12 PM

> When will Microbe [or other programs mentioned] be available for us NX users?

Let me try to explain this again->
You no longer have to beg developers to create a 'special' version/update (although it is an option if the developer wants to)

With MCA2 you can use the *current* version of many sound programs. You can download them now (most have free trial periods).

For example Microbe is available from Handango. The other programs mentioned are available from other sites.
[please do not ask where to find specific programs in this thread]

----
What you can do today:
Download the current versions of the sound programs you've always wanted to use (trial version, don't buy them yet). Install them on your PDA in preparation. For fun, run them on your NX/NZ/TG PDA and see how the act without MCA 2.

Some will say they are not compatible with your handheld (eg: AeroPlayer), some will give you a "(Sys 0505)" error (eg: PocketTunes or Microbe) and others will work quietly (eg: Snails)

----
Some time tomorrow I'll release the pre-Alpha version of MCA2.
If you are the adventurous type, you can install MCA2, then run the programs that didn't work before (and see if/how they work for you)

====
> ...have you tested it with astraware games that support music?

I tried Bejeweled, but it only uses simple sound.
If you have suggestions of other sound apps that you know rely on the streaming sound API please send me an email.
Ie. they must act differently on the old NX/NZ/TG and have more/better sound on a UX/TH or later PalmOne device

jpolz

04-01-2004, 08:50 PM

CliePet,

Do you view the MCA 2 application as a temporary work-around until more programmers adopt the MCA and actually code it into their apps? From what I'm reading it seems as though version 2 seems to have some drawback opposed to programs that are coded specifically for MCA? Or am totally off base?

Blazefire

04-01-2004, 09:01 PM

Just like to reiterate:

YOU ROCK CLIEPET!

Just out of curiosity, any other future plans for the Clie? Maybe CF BT drivers?

In any case, we all owe you big time.

darrengower

04-01-2004, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by CliePet
>
<snip>
With MCA2 you can use the *current* version of many sound programs. You can download them now (most have free trial periods).

Some will say they are not compatible with your handheld (eg: AeroPlayer), some will give you a "(Sys 0505)" error (eg: PocketTunes or Microbe) and others will work quietly (eg: Snails)
<snip>

Hi CliePet,

So you're patching the calls that return info on the availability of the Palm standard sound API, then redirecting any calls to that API. Sounds like a perfect solution (except where developers test for the type of machine they are running on as opposed to the API availability, but if that's done at all, it's a fault in the specific application IMO - but that's a different discussion....).

I'm curious whether there is any advantage to a developer to be able to call directly to your APIs instead of relying on system patches to do it for them? What level of degradation is there (if any) in that redirection? Just a lookup table of some sort that points one way or the other (and therefore there is no inherent degradation in the calls), or is it something more that will possibly affect time-critical applications?

Unregistered

04-01-2004, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by CliePet
> Any word from developers ?

This is becoming a moot point.

With MCA2 (alpha coming this weekend) you can install it yourself, and many released apps will 'just work'

So far the following apps work for me:
+ Microbe
+ Snails
+ AeroPlayer (including background, with caveats)
+ PocketTunes (including background, with caveats)
(Mapopolis is using a different technique so they don't apply)

The music player apps sometimes crash when going from one track to another. That's a problem in the way I am tricking the 68K callback buffers. I will hopefully get these fixed before the alpha.
Programs with ARM callbacks appear to work flawlessly except for the infrequent click problems.
Cliepet,
This is such a wonderful news! I had wondered after your MCA 1 release, what it would take to do a compat layer so that apps could be used as is. But it is a great accomplishment to have the MCA 2 within such a short time to do just that! Thanks again so much for your great effort and contribution to the Clie community!

CliePet

04-02-2004, 11:02 AM

> Do you view the MCA 2 application as a temporary work-around...

I see it the other way around. MCA1 was the first version. I don't plan on improving the MCA1 version. MCA1 is now obsolete.
I suspect almost everyone will use the MCA2 version, and their code remains clean as they just use the official SndStream APIs.

FWIW: MCA2 was what I wanted to do all along (MCA1 was a stop-gap because I didn't know how easy it was to trap PACE emulator calls)

> From what I'm reading it seems as though version 2 seems to have some drawback opposed to programs that are coded specifically for MCA? Or am totally off base?

No functional drawbacks (MCA1 and MCA2 provide essentially the same features).
Going direct to the Sony API does have a few advantages if you want complete control over the buffering, but that wouldn't be in portable code.

MCA1 has compile and linkage and development tool drawbacks (everyone uses different tools) and it requires static linking.

MCA2 has a minor packaging drawbacks for the final product (a separate PRC). It is relatively small (well under 8K for final version)

----
> any other future plans for the Clie? Maybe CF BT drivers?

Still have other minor things to play with, but this is probably going to be the last big clie thing for a while.
No interest in BT drivers from me (for a number of reasons)

----
> Sounds like a perfect solution

I agree (the MCA2 approach was what I wanted to do all along)

> (except where developers test for the type of machine they are running on as opposed to the API availability,

FWIW:To my surprise many programs don't even bother with any checking (the "Sys 505" errors)
I put in a special case to make the current/old AeroPlayer version work.
The MMPlayer player beta does it right. It has MCA version 1 built in, but if you install MCA2 on the machine, it will use it instead.

> I'm curious whether there is any advantage to a developer to be able to call directly to your APIs instead of relying on system patches to do it for them? What level of degradation is there (if any) in that redirection?

For most things it is done as efficiently as possible (similar to how it is done in a Palm OS 5.2 device, just with different buffering logic)
The only ugliness is for 68K callbacks (ie. if you want efficiency you should redo your data handler in ARM code anyway)

FWIW: A lot of my additions are just like the rest of the system emulator traps. They also go directly to the (undocumented) system APIs, with many thanks to Igor of YAHM fame. The official alternatives for writing ARM code just would not do (ie. having to go through the emulator most of the time)

===============

UPDATE: MCA version 2 (pre-alpha) is available for adventurous people to try.

Please look for details in this thread:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47127