NX80 and WiFi sniffing

[MowAlon]

Hello everyone... First off, thanks for providing such a great place for infoseekers like myself. I hope to be an official part of the community soon by getting an NX80.

I'm really torn, though. As far as I am concerned, the NX80V is my first choice, regardless of price, out of ANY PDA out there right now because it has everything *I* want - thumbboard being one of the most important features. There is one glaring flaw, though. I will be getting online with a WiFi card eventually to unleash the best thing about having a PDA these days, but without the ability to sniff out public WiFi, the TH55 has what I think would be a very serious advantage. I obviously will be able to connect within my own house and at school, but I think one of the coolest features of WiFi access is that you can just connect to the internet without dealing with any people or wires if you're in a hotspot - and I think the number hotspots will increase dramatically in the coming year or two.

What is your experience with a WiFi capable machine without the ability to sniff? Do you think there is any chance someone will put together a software sniffer for the niche market which is a CompactFlash PalmOS machine? Are the necessary APIs or whatever is needed publically available?

I'm pretty sure I will still get the NX80, but $300 plus more for the WL100/110 is already costing more than the TH55 with Dell's $330 deal that I just passed up - visit www.techbargains.com if you want to keep track of deals like that.

Any comments on this subject are very appreciated,

-Alon

[meir87]

There is no "sniffer" nor will there ever be (limitation of os5.0) however if you put "any" as the ssid you can connect to any unsecured network.

[winexprt]

You can have my excellent condition NX80V/U for $250. ;) I'm movin' to the UX50.

[MowAlon]

OK... two great responses :)

First off - HOLY CRAPOLA! You can just use "any" as the ssid and connect to anythiing unsecured? How is that any different than using a sniffer? I mean, sniffer's don't give you passwords (at least *I* didn't think they did) so being able to connect to "any" network is just as good, right? Hell, if I had the password to a secure WiFi network, I sure as hell would know the ssid... Am I missing something, though? Also, was sniffing added in OS 5.2.1 because we all know some new clies and the Tungsten C can do it.

As for the offer to buy a sweet NX80V for only $250 - you know, if I wasn't going to Circuit City in twenty minutes to pick one up for just a little more, I'd surely take you up on that. Not to worry, though, because you'll get more out of eBay for it. I'm still furious about how CDW dealt with me and their $300 bundle deal.

Thanks for the replies!

-Alon

[mr_gkyc]

Originally posted by MowAlon
OK... two great responses :)

First off - HOLY CRAPOLA! You can just use "any" as the ssid and connect to anythiing unsecured?


Yes you can but there are some real-world considerations which make this an unreliable proposition in some cases. More below.


How is that any different than using a sniffer? I mean, sniffer's don't give you passwords (at least *I* didn't think they did) so being able to connect to "any" network is just as good, right? Hell, if I had the password to a secure WiFi network, I sure as hell would know the ssid... Am I missing something, though?


The value of a sniffer is being able to reliably and consistently connect to one specific WLAN in the presence of many WLAN.

If there was only one WLAN in an area, the "any" option works fine as long as the SSID is broadcasted. (I don't know if any sniffer out there monitors traffic to extract SSIDs...)

However, when there are multiple WLAN, the problem of the "any" option becomes clear. When you connect to a network, you need to choose one specific one among the various networks available. However, since you did not specify the SSID, some other mechanism must pick one. This probably means the network driver itself. The criteria that is being used is not obvious--I'd guess signal strength but there could be others. What this means is that you can reproducibly connect to the same network the next day or even the next hour. Worse, because there is no way to examine the actual SSID of the network you're connected to when you use "any", there is no way to capture this info for use next time.

Having said that, I use the "any" option with my NX70 and WL100 frequently and find the connectivity that it provides useful. It just annoys me that I cannot know more about the specific network I am using.


Also, was sniffing added in OS 5.2.1 because we all know some new clies and the Tungsten C can do it.


More correctly, IIRC, POS 5.2 has a standard network driver which enables a "standardized" sniffer to be written. The network API of POS 5.0 CLIE is proprietary. That means that it is, in principle, possible for Sony to write and release a sniffer for POS 5.0 CLIE.

George

[MowAlon]

Thanks for the technical info. Makes me know not to get my hopes up regarding a sniffer - lord knows Sony won't be bothering with one any time soon.

I'm sure "any" will do just fine for me - there aren't *that* many hotspots these days. I will, however, be able to really put it to the test at the Game Developer's Conference later this month where I'm sure there will be oh so many radio signals bouncing around for me to connect with.

-Alon

[hwolfejr]

mr_gykc- (and others)

When you set the ssid to "any" , am I correct in assuming that the connection mode would be "Ad Hoc"? Also, what channel would be most common to use? Channel 11?

Thanks for the thread
They provide lots of info to soak up!

[hwolfejr]

Sorry..... that's mr_gkyc to be correct....

[meir87]

Actually it is only infrastructure. I don't think this works ad-hoc (nor do you really need it to due to the ratio of ad-hoc to infrastructure networks).

BTW, most ad-hoc networks use ch. 6 or 11

[mr_gkyc]

Originally posted by hwolfejr
mr_gykc- (and others)

When you set the ssid to "any" , am I correct in assuming that the connection mode would be "Ad Hoc"? Also, what channel would be most common to use? Channel 11?

Thanks for the thread
They provide lots of info to soak up!

BTW, I made a typo earlier in my post. I meant to say that "you canNOT reproducibly connect to the same network the next day..." The problem is that the driver is the one that's deciding which network to connect to and you've got no way to affect that when you use "any".

The connection mode specifies if you are connecting to a AP/router (infrastructure) or to another WLAN NIC (ad-hoc). So it should be infrastructure.

(I haven't used ad-hoc at all because I don't have a computer that I want to connect my CLIE to...)

George

[meir87]

Originally posted by mr_gkyc
you canNOT reproducibly connect to the same network the next day

George

Actually you can (sort of). If you install netmon you should see which ssid you are connected to one day and then you can create a profile for that ssid specifically.

[MowAlon]

netmon? can you point me to it?

[meir87]

http://files.mypdacafe.com/members/pratt/CLIENetMon.zip

[MowAlon]

So, let me know if I'm wrong, but using "any" and netmon together is essentially the equivalent of sniffing, isn't it? Man, this just keeps getting better every minute. :)

Thanks, everyone.

[sixseven]

Originally posted by meir87


Actually you can (sort of). If you install netmon you should see which ssid you are connected to one day and then you can create a profile for that ssid specifically.

Thanks or the link! How does one actually use netmon. I've installed the .prc, but I'm not sure how to use it.

[sixseven]

Originally posted by sixseven


Thanks or the link! How does one actually use netmon. I've installed the .prc, but I'm not sure how to use it.

I just did a little searching and found out that it is a Silk Plug-In. I'm all good now... :)

[coolride]

So you're making a switch, huh winexprt? Why the switch? Just wondering because I thought about switching, and would like to know some reasons why you're switching considering you're an experienced NX80 owner. Thanks in advance.

[squeff]

When I use Any and Netmon on my NX73, I get "Any" as the SSID. It doesn't pick up the actual SSID once I'm connected. Hmmmmm...

[michaelp]

In the last month or 2, I've seen ads and or read about some standalone sniffer modules. The sole purpose/market of these devices is to gain the ability to sniff for hotspots if you lack a sniffer. And, to make it more convenient to sniff without pulling out and walking around with your laptop in hand sniffing. I believe they are battery operated and stand-alone devices.

I just did a little searching around and could not find anything immediately on these devices. I personally would detest having to lug around an additional device just to sniff (which makes it great that the TH and UX-50 have the built-in sniffers).

At any rate, just wanted to mention this. Someone else more familiar may be able to provide links and useful comment on these devices.

[meir87]

The main one is from kensington http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/kensington-wifi-finder-review.html

[squeff]

Keep in mind that these sniffer devices, like from Kensington, don't provide you with an SSID. All they do is tell you if there is a WiFi signal (not protected by WEP and a few other forms of security). If you think about it, isn't that what the NX80 can do, anyway?

[meir87]

Yup, but people want it to do this http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/img_wifinder.gif

[mr_gkyc]

Originally posted by meir87


Actually you can (sort of). If you install netmon you should see which ssid you are connected to one day and then you can create a profile for that ssid specifically.

No you can't. The fatal flaw of NetMon is that it doesn't show you the SSID you're actually connected to if you use "any".

(It was probably a minor oversight on the developer's part since he expected the SSID to be static--one specifies it and it does not change in use. Only if he'd stopped to carefully think about the various use-cases would he determine that SSID should be dynamically determined from the actual network.)

George

[meir87]

I just checked and you're right. I hadn't noticed that before :) Maybe you can use netmon to find the gateway address and then specify that in a wifi profile.

[okashin]

I downloaded Netmon with a direct link and installed it on my NX80V.
But I cannot search AP.(I do not understand how to use.)

I watched above screen-shot searching AP by a reply of meir-san,
BUT is it the result that used NetMon?

I just look for software of the above screen-shot.
(I want software for sniffing on NX80V.)
I ask for advice.

### Please allow my poor English.(I am Japanese) ###

[meir87]

Thats actually a screen shot from a palmone device. I just said that that is what people want (will not work on the NXs).

[okashin]

Thank you for quick reply.

I understood a meaning of above screen-shot.

As for Netmon, there is not AP search function?
In development?

[meir87]

No search function because not possible to have one on OS 5.0. Netmon basically just tells you info about who you are connected to.

[anitanium]

i suppose i'm lucky because all day i spend in school where wireless network is endless

[okashin]

Thank you for quick reply.

Is it a problem of a version of the OS?
(Ver.5.0 is NG for WiFi sniffing???) (T T)

uHHH...
OS of UX50 is 5.2, and OS of TH55 is 5.2.1.

I seem to have to give up sniffing on NX80V.

[meir87]

"Is it a problem of a version of the OS?"

Right, sniffing requires a low level of multitasking which OS5.0 is unable to provide. This feature was added in OS5.2 which is why the UX and TH have a sniffer.

[carguy]

WL100/WL110 wireless cards run between $75-$100 in ebay. I lust purchased a WL110 for $75.00.

After reading in this forum that a WL100 has more range, I wish that I had purchased it

Remember, newer is not always better.

[winexprt]

Originally posted by carguy
WL100/WL110 wireless cards run between $75-$100 in ebay. I lust purchased a WL110 for $75.00.

After reading in this forum that a WL100 has more range, I wish that I had purchased it

Remember, newer is not always better.

EXACTLY!! I was a sucker for the 'Newer is better' mentality too until a member here, forgot who-sorry!, posted an excellent detailed review of the capabilities & specs of both.

[anitanium]

i find the wl110's range acceptable
i haven't used the wl100, but for my purposes the wl110 works fine if you have decent to strong signal strength

[carguy]

Thank you for the info.

Much appreciated !