Posts requesting Clie Organizer and new Netfront

[rldunn]

I can certainly understand the sentiment of existing Clie owners wanting the new version of Clie Organizer and an updated version of Netfront. However, this site could get in trouble with requests like that. When the same thing happened with Decuma on the NX70 or NX80 (whichever one it came on first), both Decuma and Sony asked Cliesource to stop these kind of posts, and I'd rather not get in that situation again. So, from here on, all posts requesting these or posting them will be deleted and the poster will be warned or banned following the site rules for that (see Reggie's sticky note at the top of each forum). Thanks!!

[Griff]

Thank you for posting this.  I had half a mind to report some of the posts but didn't want to bother you guys.  It seems to me that trading new software from a new device is the same as trading warez which we all know CS will not tolerate.

[mdlsimpson]

Excellent! Thanks RLDunn :)

[anand78]

I am in no way advocating piracy, however Cliesource is also not deleting members chat. If you are so concerned with people trading wares here I guess you can update your VBulletin Software to get the mods approval before posting a link( Like you do with images now). But I guess just to please Sony you can't make Cliesource a Bulletin board with stifled voices. And if you are so much concerened I guess you should get rid of the whole Compact Flash Forum because " It violates the Licence agreement of Sony".
I guess going by that then we will have to leave Cliesource for some other greener pastures.

!!!!!!!TATA did I hear brighthand or palminfocenter or other bulletin boards!!!!!!!

[Blazefire]

I'm not trying to split hairs or trying stir anything up, and I understand why Netfront can't be posted because its not made by Sony, but hasn't past experience shown that Sony hasn't really made any effort in stopping the posting of its own software? Such as the updated audioplayer/movieplayer/camera apps, and adding programs from other models to models that don't contain certain Sony programs (ie. Clie RMC, ClieMemo and the updated VG programs for the NR70 the came with the NX70)?

[lostether]

Originally posted by rldunn
I can certainly understand the sentiment of existing Clie owners wanting the new version of Clie Organizer and an updated version of Netfront. However, this site could get in trouble with requests like that. When the same thing happened with Decuma on the NX70 or NX80 (whichever one it came on first), both Decuma and Sony asked Cliesource to stop these kind of posts, and I'd rather not get in that situation again. So, from here on, all posts requesting these or posting them will be deleted and the poster will be warned or banned following the site rules for that (see Reggie's sticky note at the top of each forum). Thanks!!

I think we need to consider this a little more carefully. Decuma is a commercial application, not developed by Sony specifically for its handhelds. However, and I can use the example of the CF driver hacks, and using the NX73/80 CF drivers on previous Clies, that trying to use a Sony app that will not be available for sale on another model has been common practice since the NR series was released, and probably even before that. Note recently the work on getting the T3 PIM apps to run on Sony Clies, as well as the work on WebPro.

If there is to be a MAJOR change in Cliesources outlook on this then it should be announced and posted so as to dispel any misunderstanding among the members.

[c0mm0n]

Funny how some ppl are censored for asking something whereas th users record movies, enjoy it and share the trick on the same place...actually no piece of nf 3.1 or clie organiser has been released here, which isn't the case of movie recorder...

[lostether]

One other thing, careless threats like these don't exactly warm the hearts of many Cliesource members:

"So, from here on, all posts requesting these or posting them will be deleted and the poster will be warned or banned following the site rules for that (see Reggie's sticky note at the top of each forum). Thanks!!"

These are not people that would pirate software or steal a clie from CircuitCity. If you want to ban someone for posting something you feel is illegal, fine, but if you want to start banning people for asking a question, you might as well just say that anyone who is more than a casual user, anyone who wants to tweak and hack and get the most out of their precious devices might as well just leave.

[peakpro]

Originally posted by lostether
One other thing, careless threats like these don't exactly warm the hearts of many Cliesource members:

"So, from here on, all posts requesting these or posting them will be deleted and the poster will be warned or banned following the site rules for that (see Reggie's sticky note at the top of each forum). Thanks!!"

These are not people that would pirate software or steal a clie from CircuitCity. If you want to ban someone for posting something you feel is illegal, fine, but if you want to start banning people for asking a question, you might as well just say that anyone who is more than a casual user, anyone who wants to tweak and hack and get the most out of their precious devices might as well just leave.

I am not sure why you think you can speak fo rmany cliesource users. But I for one am very happy with the stance clie source is taking on this issue.

[Obi-VVan]

Decuma is a commercial software, the TH55's PIM not.

[krypticide]

Yeah, same here. Though I can imagine being on the side of people asking for software, it still shouldn't be done.

[crazy_smeggie]

Where I don't approve of the distribution of any app on ClieSource (except for that Webpro post from which we all benefited) and agree with the Mods on that topic, this is a forum where non-offensive dialog should not be censored. A little thing I like to call, "Freedom of Speech."

Inevitably, this organizer will fall upon the masses whether or not Sony, ClieSource or anyone else for that matter wants to stifle this reality. In fact, as we have read, it has already happened and where I'm sure it won't be widespread here on Cliesource, those files will be generally available to anyone by tomorrow or the next day...that's just the way it is.

So please folks, let's honor Reggie's request. Don't request the files here nor should you discuss their distribution here. I do however think it is ok to talk about the files' features and functionality, if you should desire to.

Hopefully, the threat of banning posts and people will also go away at the same time.

Yer pal,


SMEGGIE :D

[jherubin]

Originally posted by Obi-VVan
Decuma is a commercial software, the TH55's PIM not.

However, since Sony developed the software they create the license and decide how to use the software. We don't.

No matter how draconian we may think this sounds...if Sony says you can't distribute the software (no matter what the software "costs") you can't do it.

Even freeware software can't be distributed without the consent of the developers. As I always say....read the EULA.

[rlc7254]

Originally posted by Obi-VVan
Decuma is a commercial software, the TH55's PIM not.

Actually, it is commercial software, in that the only way you can get it is to buy a TH55. It is on the CD that comes with the Clie, which is copyrighted by Sony. Just because you can't buy a stand alone version doesn't mean that it's free.

 :D

[thinking]

Is this an example of the types of posts that will be disallowed?:

"Netfront 3.1 work on UX-50

I've got both UX-50 and TH-55. I tried to copy the Netfront 3.1 from TH-55 to UX-50 and it works! The browsing speed is improved and there are more configurable options."

Just want to be clear.

[krypticide]

I think the moderators mean that they don't want to see posts like, "Can somone send me [insert program here]?". I'm sure they don't mean you can't talk about these programs and using them by itself. They just don't want the legal issues that arise when a company sees Cliesource as a medium of copyrighted material exchange.

[rldunn]

OK, I'm really tired, but let me try to address the points that have been raised so far. If I miss anything, feel free to ask, and I'll try to answer it tomorrow.

To me, the situation here is exactly like the one with Decuma when it first came out. Now, Decuma is commercial, but at the time, it only came on the Clie and wasn't available for sale anywhere. In fact, there was no word that it would ever be available for sale. Because of this, people thought they could just give it away. And when that happened, Reggie received letters from both Decuma and Sony asking him to stop those posts. I would just like to avoid a repeat situation here.

I don't want to be heavy-handed or to censor speech or any of that other stuff. I just want to protect Cliesource so that it's able to stay around and provide a forum for all the great information that comes out of here. So, in that mindset, the only posts related to this issue that would cause problems are:

- Posts asking for Netfront or Clie Organizer
- Posts with attached Netfront or Clie Organizer files or links to those files.

If there are any posts like those, they will be dealt with according to the rules laid out by the site (which are not new, nor have they changed), which is what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned warnings and bannings. Please look at the rules in Reggie's sticky post at the top of each forum if you're not familiar with them. Notice they don't say that someone will be banned the first time they ever mention Netfront or anything like that.

I understand that there will never be a consensus on this issue - there hasn't been since the N710 came out with cool new drawing software. However, after these explanations, I hope that you can understand and respect the decision and hopefully think that it's pretty reasonable and necessary policy.

[SamuraiCatJB]

I stand behind Reggie on this one. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to request and post software that has not specifically been allowed to be distributed. As a developer of software I can tell you all the reasons for this, but I will spare you the soapbox.

Sony can offer this software as "value added" to hardware in which case you can only get the software with a sony product or sony upgrade (from a prior model), thus "encouraging" a market shift to newer sony models. wether or not anyone agrees with this practice, it is their right to do. My software at work is offered free, but only with contracts for hardware/upgrades/customization efforts, that is my company's right as well.

if you disagree with this practice you do have the freedom to speak out against it. You do not have the freedom/right to violate it.

[lostether]

Originally posted by peakpro


I am not sure why you think you can speak fo rmany cliesource users. But I for one am very happy with the stance clie source is taking on this issue.

I'm happy for you.

[OcellNuri]

Originally posted by thinking
Is this an example of the types of posts that will be disallowed?:

"Netfront 3.1 work on UX-50

I've got both UX-50 and TH-55. I tried to copy the Netfront 3.1 from TH-55 to UX-50 and it works! The browsing speed is improved and there are more configurable options."

Just want to be clear.


If you own both units, and experiment with switching the software around, I don't see why you can't post your experiences here. Many members here own more than one unit, and the information would be greatly benefitial.

However, I think the line is crossed when someone goes "Hey! That's great! Can you send me a copy of NF3.1 so I can load it?"

[BClie2k]

My Clie came with NetFront 3.0 and when I paid for it I knew I was getting the hardware and the software. Therefore, I paid for the software too. I don't think anybody sees it as it came for free, right? Now, my NX70 works great and I love it. However, NetFront 3.0 has a lot of issues, which you could learn by doing a search at ClieSource and typing NetFront. I really feel like I bought a beta version of NetFront and that I deserve to get at least an update that solve those issues. I'm not asking for new features on NetFront. I just want a browser that doesn’t fail on my favorite websites and that doesn't display "Page too large" every time I want to open ClieSource or Amazon. I believe most Palm developers would agree with me in not charging for a .1 or .2 release. NetFront went from 3.0 to 3.1 and it seems that it is only addressing issues that should have never been there in the first place.

In other words, I really feel frustrated that in order to have a working browser I have to buy another PDA when the one I currently have is perfectly fine. In the mean time, I have to contain myself everytime I read how good the updated NetFront 3.1 is and how bad 3.0 is.

What can we do about it? If asking for an update (NetFront 3.1) at ClieSource is piracy then we should all e-mail or call Sony and ask them to release or send us an update for their partially working browser (NetFront 3.0).

After all we did pay for NetFront 3.0, why is SONY leaving us in the dark and making us look like pirates?

Al

[clieclie]

that is my point exactly. we are not trying to pirate a brand new software. we PAID FOR a previous version of netfront that had obvious problems. all of us have experienced those problems and wished that sony would update them. to most of us, or at least to me, requesting netfront 3.1 seems like a reasonable request for those of us who already PAID FOR a 3.0 version. i don't believe 3.1 is that much different of a software for anyone to call it "pirating". i'm believing it to be an updated version of the software which has already been PURCHASED (PAID FOR) by many clie owners. sony took the 3.0 version and updated to a 3.1 version. it feels more like a patch job than a brand new software. i doubt that they developed a brand new web browser, different than netfront 3.0 and called it netfront 3.1. no, they most likely tweaked it to address issues that they probably heard from faithful clie enthusiasts in a forum such as cliesource or many other clie-user forums like it. that's not pirating a software. far from it. and what better place to receive those updates or patches, if not from a forum such as this.

[peakpro]

Originally posted by lostether


I'm happy for you.

That's much appreciated.

[jacksonian]

I'm always amazed that people feel entitled to not only a free forum, but they would like to have it exactly as they wish. If you don't like the way this forum is run, then why don't you get your wallet out and quit your job and spend your money and time running your own Clie forum website? And why don't you handle the calls from Sony or whatever company's lawyers about piracy, etc...? And put your livelihood in danger over a bunch of cheap people that don't want to buy the latest handheld with the latest software, but want to share it instead?

I am appreciative that this forum is here. And if they decide to make a rule that I can't post on Thursdays because my eyes are blue, then so be it. If I don't like it, then I can either go to another forum or start my own. But I have no place telling them how to run their forum.

[krypticide]

While I sympathize with BClie2k and clieclie, bear in mind that indeed it is up to Sony to give releases and respond to user concerns. While in a way it is their problem if people end up pirating their software because they don't provide an update that fixes problems, you are still breaking the law...

[SamuraiCatJB]

I have heard all the excuses.... from "no software should cost $3000" and therefore piracy is justified.... As I said, you are free to complain, you are still not being 'forced' to be pirates... You are free to email sony and complain about their practices. Threaten to switch to PPC or to Palm and give them up completely, or what ever you want OTHER than piracy. No one is forced into piracy, if you choose it, you risk all the appropriate action from CS and others (including the manufacturer if they choose to) if you announce it and encourage it.

So complain all you want, talk all your friends into complaining, get a mass of clie users to complain. that is your right, but no more.

[anand78]

What about Compactflash reverse engineering, why are you guys raising such a brouhaha about this matter then . I was reading in sony developer forum and all I heard was a amousement from the MOD. If swapping netfront is piracy , excuse me but Compact flash files have multimedia libraries that have been pulled from UX series. And not only are these available for download but we have links in cliesource for that too.

[winexprt]

Originally posted by anand78
What about Compactflash reverse engineering, why are you guys raising such a brouhaha about this matter then . I was reading in sony developer forum and all I heard was a amousement from the MOD. If swapping netfront is piracy , excuse me but Compact flash files have multimedia libraries that have been pulled from UX series. And not only are these available for download but we have links in cliesource for that too.

I concur.

Hacking into your Clie to enable greater functionality than Sony originally designed/wanted is more than tacitly approved of by this site...it's promoted! IE: CF forum

It is achieved by one member of this site by using apps from the UX-series CLIE's.

It is BEYOND me that THAT is condoned by the owners/mods of this site, but everything else regarding enhancing or updating your Clie with apps from other models is now prohibited under threat of deletion and/or banning.

The hypocrisy is getting knee-deep.

[crazy_smeggie]

After reading the Mooseman's review (http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42535) of the TH, I have absolutely no desire to put crappy software on my UX. If it isn't AT LEAST as good as Agendus, I wouldn't waste my time. Therefore, to me, this thread is meaningless, tired and finished. (Yea! :))

SMEGGIE :D


(who loves ya?)

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
After reading the Mooseman's review (http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42535) of the TH, I have absolutely no desire to put crappy software on my UX. If it isn't AT LEAST as good as Agendus, I wouldn't waste my time. Therefore, to me, this thread is meaningless, tired and finished. (Yea! :))

SMEGGIE :D


(who loves ya?)

Who loves ya? Steve loves ya! Steve loves his new TH-55 too. Infact it's right next to that Deep Shaft Stout beer.:D

[crazy_smeggie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FIA WRC


Who loves ya? Steve loves ya! Steve loves his new TH-55 too. Infact it's right next to that Deep Shaft Stout beer.:D [/QUOTE

Deep Shaft Stout?? Now yer talkin'!! :)

You DO know that Sierra Nevada's Bigfoot is out, don't you? She's a potent one this year...has more punch than Old Stock, methinks.

so I bought a case...

SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FIA WRC


Who loves ya? Steve loves ya! Steve loves his new TH-55 too. Infact it's right next to that Deep Shaft Stout beer.:D [/QUOTE

Deep Shaft Stout?? Now yer talkin'!! :)

You DO know that Sierra Nevada's Bigfoot is out, don't you? She's a potent one this year...has more punch than Old Stock, methinks.

so I bought a case...

SMEGGIE :D

One name for ya buddy, MAREDSOUS. I'm hooked on it. Haven't found a finer ale. Where did ya get that Sierra Nevada? Post a pic! I'll need to take it into show the clerk at were I go.

[Wytnucls]

Belgian brew rules!

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by FIA WRC


One name for ya buddy, MAREDSOUS. I'm hooked on it. Haven't found a finer ale. Where did ya get that Sierra Nevada? Post a pic! I'll need to take it into show the clerk at were I go.

Here...use my Sierra Nevada Bigfoot Agendus Today View pic!!

http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/data/506/6907SierraNevadaBigfoot2.jpg

SMEGGIE :D

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by Wytnucls
Belgian brew rules!

I'll tell you, it's neck and neck with my passion for Barleywine. I am a big fan of Chimay and Piratt. Love Piratt. Imagine that.


SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

That Agendus background brought tears to my eyes.:) I think I'll make one for MAREDSOUS. You should make one with a color background too. Maybe a red would look nice. Smeggie, did you ever see the Christmas pack Chimay sold over the holidays? It came with a glass made for a king and three of there small ales. The blue, tan, and white lable ones.

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by FIA WRC
That Agendus background brought tears to my eyes.:) I think I'll make one for MAREDSOUS. You should make one with a color background too. Maybe a red would look nice. Smeggie, did you ever see the Christmas pack Chimay sold over the holidays? It came with a glass made for a king and three of there small ales. The blue, tan, and white lable ones.

Get all of the Sierra Nevada Agendus backgrounds in my Gallery here at CS. (Pale Ale, Summerfest, Bigfoot, Porter, Wheat, Celebration, Stout)

SMEGGIE'S Sierra Nevada Agendus Backgrounds (http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&si=&page=2&sort=1&perpage=12&password=&ppuser=6907&stype=0)

I have had all of the Chimays and I have to say, the Blue is my fav!! Ya just gotta like monk-made ales!!

:)

SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie


Get all of the Sierra Nevada Agendus backgrounds in my Gallery here at CS. (Pale Ale, Summerfest, Bigfoot, Porter, Celebration, Stout)

I have had all of the Chimays and I have to say, the Blue is my fav!! Ya just gotta like monk-made ales!!

:)

SMEGGIE :D

I haven't seen a Agendus section at this site. There's one at palmonecity.

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by FIA WRC


I haven't seen a Agendus section at this site. There's one at palmonecity.

Look back at my previous post. :D


SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

Sorry about that. I missed the link. Can others add to this section? What program do you use for the screen capture?

[crazy_smeggie]

NP..I snuck it in there after the fact...

I don't know if you can add to MY section but you can certainly up some of your own to your Gallery. :)

SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
NP..I snuck it in there after the fact...

I don't know if you can add to MY section but you can certainly up some of your own to your Gallery. :)

SMEGGIE :D

I'll start work on one. I'm still working on that ZLauncher beer skin. It's been way harder than I thought it would be.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Originally posted by winexprt


I concur.

Hacking into your Clie to enable greater functionality than Sony originally designed/wanted is more than tacitly approved of by this site...it's promoted! IE: CF forum

It is achieved by one member of this site by using apps from the UX-series CLIE's.

It is BEYOND me that THAT is condoned by the owners/mods of this site, but everything else regarding enhancing or updating your Clie with apps from other models is now prohibited under threat of deletion and/or banning.

The hypocrisy is getting knee-deep.

I will try to explain this... please let me know if I use too many long words.... first off reverse engineering is marginally acceptable as long as it is for learning only. This can't exactly be hidden. However, distribution of the exact code from the reverse engineering is quite illegal as that would be part of a copyright or patent.

for instance, I can take apart microsoft word and learn how its document processing reading/writing is done and the full format of the their word document and make an import/export or compatible reader. PROVIDING that I purchased it in the first place. However simply taking microsoft code decompiling it to assembly and distributing that assembly is most illegal.

copying software from one handheld to another of software you have not purchased... again illegal. clear?

now if you want to argue this with someone, argue it with your local district attorney to argue up to the patent and copyright office, because it does not even involve the people at CS, they are bound to discourage illegal activities, but Reggie did not make the law, they are bound to it just as you and I are.

[winexprt]

Originally posted by SamuraiCatJB


I will try to explain this... please let me know if I use too many long words.... first off reverse engineering is marginally acceptable as long as it is for learning only. This can't exactly be hidden. However, distribution of the exact code from the reverse engineering is quite illegal as that would be part of a copyright or patent.

for instance, I can take apart microsoft word and learn how its document processing reading/writing is done and the full format of the their word document and make an import/export or compatible reader. PROVIDING that I purchased it in the first place. However simply taking microsoft code decompiling it to assembly and distributing that assembly is most illegal.

copying software from one handheld to another of software you have not purchased... again illegal. clear?

now if you want to argue this with someone, argue it with your local district attorney to argue up to the patent and copyright office, because it does not even involve the people at CS, they are bound to discourage illegal activities, but Reggie did not make the law, they are bound to it just as you and I are.


Wow...it must have taken you many years to learn how to be that condescending.

Congratulations...you perfected it.

[jacksonian]

I didn't find it condescending, it needed to be said.

[BClie2k]

Circuit City + TJ37 + Filez + MS + NF = :D

Al

[winexprt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SamuraiCatJB
[B]

I will try to explain this... please let me know if I use too many long words.... first off reverse engineering is marginally acceptable as long as it is for learning only. This can't exactly be hidden. However, distribution of the exact code from the reverse engineering is quite illegal as that would be part of a copyright or patent.

for instance, I can take apart microsoft word and learn how its document processing reading/writing is done and the full format of the their word document and make an import/export or compatible reader. PROVIDING that I purchased it in the first place. However simply taking microsoft code decompiling it to assembly and distributing that assembly is most illegal.

copying software from one handheld to another of software you have not purchased... again illegal. clear?

Not clear. Having an entire forum devoted to CF, where a well known member has a link to his site that has UX50 apps available for download (and to copy over to your Clie) is legal?

now if you want to argue this with someone, argue it with your local district attorney to argue up to the patent and copyright office, because it does not even involve the people at CS, they are bound to discourage illegal activities, but Reggie did not make the law, they are bound to it just as you and I are.


Again, not bound too tightly then if they allow links to UX50 apps that you can download and copy over to your Clie.

[SamuraiCatJB]

well... I find it rediculous that people blame Reggie for following patent and copyright laws just because THEY want to break them. If you have a PROBLEM with the law, don't complain at Reggie complain at your government representative, your attorney general, your district attorney or anyone that could actually DO something! is that so hard to comprehend? obviously it is, because people are still complaining to the wrong people!

Reggie can have this board lost, and all of his computer equipment compounded by the federal government as part of the investigation, on top of a 10,000.00 fine, if he allows you folks to engage in illegal copyright/patent efforts here or encourage it. And you complain at him for not letting you....

[SamuraiCatJB]

I don't visit the UX/CF areas... however, if you believe they are violating the copyright law, your choice is to ask Reggie to remove them. That is your only choice. Not to extend the activities further. So, would you like me to review the CF areas for possible patent or copyright violation as a professional software developer for possible removal?

[winexprt]

Originally posted by SamuraiCatJB
I don't visit the UX/CF areas... however, if you believe they are violating the copyright law, your choice is to ask Reggie to remove them. That is your only choice. Not to extend the activities further. So, would you like me to review the CF areas for possible patent or copyright violation as a professional software developer for possible removal?

Well, I do visit the CF forum and have for quite a while. That is why I brought this up. There were posts (still are) upon posts upon posts referring to a member whose site contains UX50 apps for download and copying over to your Clie. My only problem with that is why is allowing THAT ok and not someone who would potentially want some TH55 app? Hypothetically of course.

Unless you are a lawyer who specializes in patent law, or a lawyer who specializes in copyright law why don't we leave that potential analysis to an expert?

[SamuraiCatJB]

the lawyer will act on a professional opinion, mine or someone elses. In the case of palm software, probably not mine. However, as a professional member of software developement organization, I am bound to review if requested and turn in violations for legal action. i doubt Reggie knows this, though he does know I am a professional software developer.

Which brings us back to square one. That little phrase on the bottom right of every post. IF you believe something to violate the rules of the board you have the right to report it. You do not have the right to extend the violation further.

Per legal precident in the Huffman compression of GIF and PK products over a 8 year process, it was given out free, however it was patented. When the owning company decided to charge they did, and the courts inforced it. Even offering something for free does not necessarily mean they cannot charge for it later. Past does NOT effect future precedent in patent and copyright law.

so again. Your choice is to turn in those violations you believe are there, not add to them. If the the CS code is reverse engineered I would probably refer the case on to someone else closer to the products in question as it would take me too long to review the sources being unfamiliar.

IF you buy the new PDA and want to transfer the software to YOUR older PDA, this is a grey area not covered by current digital copyright laws (yet) and still under review by congress and the copyright legal folks. I will not raise a red flag there. If you ask someone who purchased a new PDA to copy the software for you to upgrade your old PDA because you do not want to make a new purchase. I must raise a red flag. That does fall enough into my area of expertise for me to make a call. Now, what you do off CS is none of my concern, but if you do it in front of me on CS, it is my concern, and I have no choice in the matter either.

[crazy_smeggie]

So I'll assume that y'all don't want to just drop all of this negativity and talk about beer? :D

SMEGGIE :D

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by BClie2k
Circuit City + TJ37 + Filez + MS + NF = :D

Al

Circuit City + TJ37 + Filez + MS + NF = :D = Bravo!!


SMEGGIE :D

[winexprt]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
So I'll assume that y'all don't want to just drop all of this negativity and talk about beer? :D

SMEGGIE :D

Alrighty then! Enough of all the legalese...leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Shakespeare was right!

Mmmm BEER!

Hey Smeggie. Have you heard of this bar d.b.a.'s (http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp) here in NYC? Awesome selection of Belgian's!

[crazy_smeggie]

No, I haven't...

But I would be willing to fly out there just to try it!! I'll let you know when I'll be out there again!!


SMEGGIE :D

(Now that's more like it!!)

[BClie2k]

You guys are making me feel like drinking beer and I don't have any. I'll be back in a sec. I'm going to buy beer. :D :D

Al

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by winexprt


Alrighty then! Enough of all the legalese...leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Shakespeare was right!

Mmmm BEER!

Hey Smeggie. Have you heard of this bar d.b.a.'s (http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp) here in NYC? Awesome selection of Belgian's!

Don't forget, Coors Light will leave a bad taste in your mouth as well.

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by winexprt


Alrighty then! Enough of all the legalese...leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Shakespeare was right!

Mmmm BEER!

Hey Smeggie. Have you heard of this bar d.b.a.'s (http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp) here in NYC? Awesome selection of Belgian's!

Jesus Jumpin' Jizwads!!

They have some good stuff on the menu there!! I'd go for the Old Foghorn alone!!

I have selected tonight as the night where I will dare to cross the line beyond three Sierra Nevada Bigfoot in one sitting. My personal record is six (without getting arrested), but that was a long time and several levels of responsibility ago. :)

SMEGGIE :D

[lostether]

Thank goodness this thread has turned in a direction I find fundamentally important to most Clie users and accused software pirates everywhere - BEER!. I think SamuraiCatJB better buy the next round if we are expected to sit through another one of his diatribes :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by lostether
Thank goodness this thread has turned in a direction I find fundamentally important to most Clie users and accused software pirates everywhere - BEER!. I think SamuraiCatJB better buy the next round if we are expected to sit through another one of his diatribes :D

Speaking of piracy, I saw Pirates Of The Caribbean on dvd yesterday. Now they knew how to party back then. To bad the beer wasn't 37 degrees back then. Not to mention from all the pirate stories they seem to prefer rum. I wonder if it was 151 Rum:D .

[winexprt]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
No, I haven't...

But I would be willing to fly out there just to try it!! I'll let you know when I'll be out there again!!


SMEGGIE :D

(Now that's more like it!!)


Oh MAN! If you worship all sorts of fine spirits (like I do), you will LOVE this place!

And the girls on weekends are really nice to boot! ;)

[SamuraiCatJB]

Originally posted by lostether
Thank goodness this thread has turned in a direction I find fundamentally important to most Clie users and accused software pirates everywhere - BEER!. I think SamuraiCatJB better buy the next round if we are expected to sit through another one of his diatribes :D

I will buy the next round of beer under one condition... everyone can keep from laughing at me drinking a soda pop. :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by winexprt



Oh MAN! If you worship all sorts of fine spirits (like I do), you will LOVE this place!

And the girls on weekends are really nice to boot! ;)

Ahh, Two pairs of beer and two pairs of....

[crazy_smeggie]

WHO WANTS TO SEE SOME SCREENSHOTS OF HOTMAIL AND EXCHANGE SERVER VIA NF3.1???

Comin' right up. Of course, these are just artist renderings of what it would look like on a UX-50. :)


SMEGGIE :D

[winexprt]

haa. let 'em FLY on over!!!!!!!

[winexprt]

Originally posted by SamuraiCatJB


I will buy the next round of beer under one condition... everyone can keep from laughing at me drinking a soda pop. :D

Won't laugh...I'll put somethin' special in that soda for ya! :p

[crazy_smeggie]

Now remember:

This is what it might look like if it ran on the UX-50, which of course, we all know it doesn't. :)

SMEGGIE :D

http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/data/500/6907Hotmail.jpg
http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/data/500/6907Exchange.jpg

[winexprt]

Oh cool smeg...was just gonna tell ya to add the 'N' at the end of the IMG tag to stack 'em vertically.

They look reeeel purty!! ;)

[crazy_smeggie]

Yeah, thanks.

Maybe someday, someday this will be a reality for all of us instead of just a fuzzy, dream sequence artist rendering... :(


SMEGGIE :D :D

[winexprt]

SOMEDAY...OVER THE RAINBOW....!

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by winexprt



Oh MAN! If you worship all sorts of fine spirits (like I do), you will LOVE this place!

And the girls on weekends are really nice to boot! ;)

Worship? Worship? Warship?

crazy_smeggie
Flight Deck Coordinator
Attack Squadron 65 - Fighting Tigers (A6-E)
U.S.S. Coral Sea CV-43

See ya there, bro!!

SMEGGIE :D

[winexprt]

Intruders rule!! The EA6's are PARTICULARY bad-azz!!!!!

Can't hit whatcha can't see! ;)

LOL Nobody else has any idea of what we are talking about probably!!

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by winexprt
Intruders rule!! The EA6's are PARTICULARY bad-azz!!!!!

Can't hit whatcha can't see! ;)

LOL Nobody else has any idea of what we are talking about probably!!

Yeah, whenever there is a major power outage somewhere, I wonder...

:P

SMEGGIE :D

[winexprt]

..and I wonder who's fast-roping in on Pave-Lows!! ;)

or pave-hawks.

[krypticide]

I do! But mostly cuz I was really interested in military craft back in my childhood days.

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by winexprt
Intruders rule!! The EA6's are PARTICULARY bad-azz!!!!!

Can't hit whatcha can't see! ;)

LOL Nobody else has any idea of what we are talking about probably!!

You two aren't the only ones who know of this.

[crazy_smeggie]

Originally posted by FIA WRC


You two aren't the only ones who know of this.

That's a fact...jack. :)

SMEGGIE :D

[anand78]

Please read this before downloading.

IMPORTANT - READ BEFORE DOWNLOADING ANY PROGRAM OR ACCOMPANYING DOCUMENTATION ONLINE

DOWNLOADING ANY PROGRAM OR ACCOMPANYING DOCUMENTATION INDICATES YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MAY NOT DOWNLOAD ANY PROGRAM OR ACCOMPANYING ONLINE DOCUMENTATION.

SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT

Sony Electronics Inc. ("Sony") furnishes the program and accompanying online documentation and, with its licensors, licenses their use to you, all as provided in this Agreement.

LICENSE

Under this Agreement, Sony and it licensors grant you a limited license to use the program and accompanying online documentation for use only with the Sony products and not for resale.

YOU AGREE NOT TO MODIFY OR DISASSEMBLE THE PROGRAM OR THE ACCOMPANYING ONLINE DOCUMENTATION, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR IN THIS AGREEMENT OR UPON SONY'S PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL. IN ADDITION, YOU AGREE NOT TO TRANSFER, LICENSE OR DISCLOSE THE PROGRAM, THE ACCOMPANYING ONLINE DOCUMENTATION OR ANY PROGRAM YOU DEVELOP FROM THEM, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, TO ANY THIRD PARTY EXCEPT UPON SONY'S PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL. FINALLY, YOU AGREE NOT TO USE THE PROGRAM OR MATERIAL AND THE ACCOMPANYING DOCUMENTATION, IN WHOLE OR IN PART FOR ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN AS OUTLINED IN THAT DOCUMENTATION.

This license is effective until terminated. You may terminate it at any time by giving Sony written notice to that effect. Sony may terminate it if you fail to comply with this Agreement by giving you like notice. Upon termination, you will destroy the program and accompanying online documentation and all copies you have made of them. In addition, upon termination you will have no recourse against Sony or its licensors for your inability to use the program or the accompanying documentation.

READ THIS AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.

[anand78]

SamuraiCatJB there is nothing called it is OK to reverse engineer.

[crazy_smeggie]

Sorry man.

He's had four sodas and can't respond to this, so we're gonna drop him off at his room so he can sleep it off.

Thanks for dropping it like everyone else has. :)


SMEGGIE :D

[FIA WRC]

Originally posted by crazy_smeggie
Sorry man.

He's had four sodas and can't respond to this, so we're gonna drop him off at his room so he can sleep it off.

Thanks for dropping it like everyone else has. :)


SMEGGIE :D

LMAO and spilled my beer.

[SamuraiCatJB]

Originally posted by anand78
SamuraiCatJB there is nothing called it is OK to reverse engineer.

check the court cases of Cerulean studios over IM clients....

ooops dropped something... can't continue. :)

*hic* now pass me another soda.... my limit is six though.... *hic*

[philipx]

Originally posted by anand78
SamuraiCatJB there is nothing called it is OK to reverse engineer.

There is actually, it's the fair use doctrine, part of the Copyright Act and of the (infamous) DMCA.
At least two federal appeals courts have held that under certain circumstances it is "fair use" for software companies to reverse engineer a program in order to examine and copy its ideas and any unprotected expression. (see Sega vs Accolade).

[crazy_smeggie]

GO PHILLIP! --_--_-- GO PHILLIP! --_--_-- GO PHILLIP!

:)


SMEGGIE :D

[SamuraiCatJB]

The key is in software patents.... harder to get, more expensive to get.... but they are not covered under a fair-use doctrine. There is a market-use doctrine, but that is a horse of another color.

Anyhow, those areas covered under a patent, you can copy, but even the copy you still have to pay for. The rules on patents are much more difficult. I've got a bookcase full of copyrights, but I have no patents... yet. That will change soon. The patent is the only protection against reverse engineering.

[foghead]

You also need to know how 'legal' reverse engineering works.

I have only been involved in one product that was reversed engineered. The way that it was done was to have one software team that was experienced in the field observe inputs and outputs from the source product. Additionally, using the legalyy obtained documentation, additional programs were written to further excercise all publicly published features of the source product.

From this a specication of the source product was written.

This specification was rewritten in different langauge by a second group of tech writers that had never seen the source product.

From that document a new team of engineers created the new product that cloned the functionality of the original product. This group of people had never seen or used the original product and none of them had ever worked in this particular market segment before. Any questions or clarifications were communicated back to the original investigation team by similar means.

The two engineering groups didn't even know where each other were geographically.

This is extreme, but is what is required to legally reverse engineer a product. Having the same people examine the source and also create the clone will probably not stand up in court. The will also lose if they decompile code, or otherwise violate the license agreement.

I prefer soda pop also, but I buy beer and wine based on cool names and labels. I always get complimented on my choices. :p

BTW - this project stood up to years of legal chalenges from a very large company that makes Clies.

[enderenya]

Originally posted by SamuraiCatJB
...Sony can offer this software as "value added" to hardware in which case you can only get the software with a sony product or sony upgrade (from a prior model), thus "encouraging" a market shift to newer sony models. wether or not anyone agrees with this practice, it is their right to do. My software at work is offered free, but only with contracts for hardware/upgrades/customization efforts, that is my company's right as well. ... (italics added)

Unfortunately, this argument doesn't apply very well for someone who has purchased the TH55 and soon finds that Movie Recorder would have worked fine on it, but wasn't included. Of course, I'm sure the quick response to this will be that the TH55 has a lower retail price than previous models that had Movie Recorder built-in.

I do find it interesting that Clié Organizer and Netfront are the ones being specifically mentioned when the posts I've seen edited/deleted lately were for Movie Recorder....

I do however completely agree with rldunn and Reggie, that ClieSource should be protected, and that we should be able to understand any limitations on posts about it. So....  couldn't we keep these requests in private messages? Or is that also monitored?

[tprime76]

What a sense of entitlement!! Geez, just because it is listed as only an incremental upgrade you have decided that you DESERVE the new version? That really isn't up to you to decide. Flawed or unflawed, when you purchased your CLIE with Netfront 3.0 on it, you purchased your clie with THAT version. If Sony had desired, they would have put a download on their web site with the new version like they have done with the update to Netfront 3 in the past. They didn't. If you download and install these newer versions of the built in applications, be aware that you are doing it illegally in violation of the EULA. That is copyright infringement. I really don't care one way or the other if you decide to do it, but quit trying to fool yourselves (and others) into thinking that it is rightous.

Morality aside, this is a FREE site that Reggie has decided to run. He can do damn well what he pleases with it. If he decided to make these forums pink and silver, it is his decision. And, if he decides to stay on the safe side of that very very grey line, SO BE IT. Hell, I really wouldn't want to have to worry about prosecution and fines for my HOBBY. Honestly, there are many other ways on the Internet to get the software you desire (and most are pretty easy to find) Do a little digging, you might find what you are looking for.

Quit whining and move on.

[enderenya]

Originally posted by tprime76
I really don't care one way or the other if you decide to do it, but quit trying to fool yourselves (and others) into thinking that it is rightous. If you don't really care one way or another if they use it, then why do you care if they (whoever you're trying to flame here) think they are righteous? It sounds like you do care.

Quit whining and move on. Who's whining?

[tprime76]

I am just talking about people who try and fool themselves into thinking that what they are doing is perfectly legal. By the writ of the law, it is not. At least acknowledge to yourself that it is illegal. It's like a bank theif saying that the bank didn't need that much money anyway, so it really didn't hurt. I don't care whether or not you do it, just don't tell me that it is legal because you THINK it should be.

You might not be whining, but a lot of people who bought a CLIE with NF3.0 are whining that they are ENTITLED to the new version. The truth is, they are not.

[jjesusfreak01]

I see no reason, besides cause Sony says no, that Netfront 3.1 should not be allowed to be distributed among Clies. We now know that the next version of the Palm OS will include a Netfront browser whose features trump the current version. Because it will be released with the os, there is very little chance it will be sold separately, and due to the fact that 3.1 only works on Sony PDAs, that have an earlier version, they will not be losing business to anything. Oh, and since the TH-55 is not being sold anymore, they cant say they are losing money because people dont want to upgrade their system for better software.

[cbuckholtz]

I'm totally against software piracy, but since Sony has given up the ghost on the Palm OS, has a crappy support structure (i.e. can' download drivers, install disks, etc. from their website) & released various apps that work on multiple platforms but are only distributed on ONE device to garner extra $$$ by getting people to buy numerous devices (i.e. movie recorder for UX50 that works on TH55) that Sony has now dropped support for I DON'T SEE ANY REASON FOR CENSORING DISCUSSIONS OR APPS DOWNLOADS FOR EXISTING SONY prc's OR INSTALLATION FILES FOR ALL EXISTING SONY PALM OS PLATFORMS.

SONY'S THE ONE THAT CAME UP WITH A GREAT PRODUCT AND DITCHED US.... If they were releasing new updates/CLIE models I would definitely say "NO" to distribution of cross platform apps/instructions, but since they bailed what can they expect!!!!!

I'm PISSED that Sony bailed from the market and left us with choice of such wonderful offerings as the T5!!!!!

Since that's the best that we're gonna get in the USA we need to reverse engineer VZ90 apps and anything else that's gonna keep our TH55's (The ULTIMATE PDA) running for the next 5+ years!!!!

[driftology]

i have a tj37, if my preinstalled copy of netfront says 3.1 does that mean i have the new version?

[jjesusfreak01]

I believe the TH55 has the latest version. It is 3.1, revision 2.0.22. You can find the revision number in the About screen.