Cnet picks a winner between PalmOS and PPC

[lostether]

An interesting article from Cnet, and one which i agree with of course ;)

Read the article here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3127_7-5120845.html

[Homie_S]

Interesting. I guess they were right on the multimedia call, but when they say how the Zire can't support multimedia due to it's grayscale screen, that has nothing to do with the PalmOS. They should've taken the high-end sony's (that are MADE for multimedia) and compared them. Heck, the clies have freakin cameras.

[LupeValenz]

Go Palm OS! :D, though they should have put up a sony NZ model for the competion instead of the T3 and we would have won in the data input function with the Graffiti AND Decuma input. Oh well, as long as Palm put a beat down on PPC I'm all happy :D.

[BMEngineer]

Go PalmOS!!!

[foghead]

Terrible, incredibly biased comparison.

I use Palm OS and was still offended by this.

He did things like used bundled software for the Palm OS units, but didn't consider bundled software for PPC.

He also blew the amount of software by a huge factor. Handango lists over 13,000 titles for PocketPC.

There are a number of other problems with his article that make me pretty much discount the whole thing.

I would love to seee a really unbiased comparison between the two platforms - unfortuantely this isn't it.

[archangel]

Biased? The right platform won in every area.

[lostether]

I agree the T3 is not the most capable PalmOS device, but it was still apparently enough to come out on top :D

[RD100]

One comparison they didn't do between PPC and Palm OS is compare the quality of the games available for each platform. All CNet focused on was the quantity available.

I have recently played a few 3-Dimensional games on my PPC like Virtual Pool Mobile and gfDoom, and they look and play nearly as good as their PC equivalents.

If you've every played Virtual Pool 3 (by Celeris) on your PC you would know how amazingly realistic this Billards game is. The game is almost life-like !!! And Celeris recently wrote a version for PPC called Virtual Pool Mobile. I downloaded the beta version of VP Mobile, and I am completely blown away by how realistic this game looks and plays on my PPC.

And gfDoom is a version of the ID Software game Doom ported for PPC. It looks and plays nearly as good as the PC version of Doom.

Most of the games I've seen written for Palm OS are typically are not as graphics intensive as those for PPC, and they typically look like those written for very early models of PCs and Atari / Nintendo game systems (mostly 2-Dimensional type games like Mario Brothers and the like).

[Unregistered]

actually, you only need to look at who wrote this article "By Rick Broida". you know who he is right? original writer for palm os magazine (tap and it's children), author of serveral "how to" palm os books.

[Spiral]

I agree, Broida has too much biased to write a good article.

I think one of the major problems is that Palm models all have different bundled software/specs. PPC OS doesn't need much bundled ware (a lot of Palm bundled ware is to try to match up to PPC), and has more uniform hardware.

Palm won in desktop synchronization primarily because it has Mac support, but Sony's don't have mac support. If you compare one element of each brand of Palm, you aren't comparing Palm to PPC anymore. You're comparing strengths of Super-Palm to PPC.

But OS6 and windows mobile 2004 are coming out soon, so the article is already being dated.

[foghead]

Originally posted by archangel
Biased? The right platform won in every area.
I think that some of his conclusions were right for the wrong reasons. The rest are just wrong.

1 - Ease of use - probably true, but his methodology is questionable. He didn't perform any real usability tests. Also, anybody that uses words like 'unintuitive' pretty much demonstrate a bias to start with. What he really means is 'I have been doing it this way for a long time and so this is the easier way to do it for me. He didn't talk about using expansion memory on Palm OS (the article wasn't long enough to dive into this quagmire). As somebody with very extensive experience on both platforms, I have always said that out of the box, Palm OS is much easier to do simple tasks and PPC is much easier to do complex tasks. This is what I don't like about this kind of superficial sloppiness. Personally, I don't much like either patform out of the box, but this is what the review was looking at.

2. Probably right since PPC gives three different input methods, one like G1, one like G2 and one that recognizes real handwriting (more or less). However PPC doesn't give a full screen option like G2 does for the two Grafitti like methods.

3. He is wrong. Easy victory for PPC. All three apps are much more powerful in PPC than in Palm OS. Even with the improved apps in the TT3, the PPC versions kick serious *ss. The allow multiple categories, no limit on categories, and All Outlook fields. Even PalmSource acknowledges how important this is since Cobalt is designed to be miuch more Outlook friendly.

4. He is wrong. This is a draw. This one is tough. PPC doesn't come with any Mac compatibility, but Palm OS doesn't come with Outlook compatibility. Most of the high-end devices come with a bundled Outlook conduit, but this is not consistent or on every device. As far as ease of use, The Palm HotSync system is generally easier to get set up for a single device, but if you have multiple devices from multiple brands this can turn into a nightmare. If you don't believe this, try using a TT3 and then install the software for an NX-80. The NX uses an older version of the desktop that overlays just enough files that niether will synch. Of course, if you do it in reverse and install the NX first, everything is fine. This is not apparent though. On the PPC side, once it is configured properly, just drop a new device into the cradle, plug it in and you are done. You don't even need to install new drivers for new devices. I also like having changes synch automatically.

5. This one kind of bothered me since since most Palm OS devices don't come with Versamail. This is billed as a Palm OS vs PPC comparison. How many Clies come with VersMail? So much for the platform comparisons.

6. Clear winner is PPC. His TT3 came with a good software bundle for Office compatibility, but not all Palm OS devices do. This is a device feature not an OS feature. On the PPC side, Pocket Word is equivalent to Windows WordPad and Pocket Excel isn't bad unless you need graphing and macros. They aren't great, they aren't bad, but they are in every single PPC. If you want to use third-party software for Office Compatibility, both platforms have VERY good add-ins that are really worth an entirely different comparison review.

7. He is right. With the built-in Media Player 8 compatible player, Windows CE is tough to beat. Palm OS doesn't (currently) have a media player buit into the OS so the choice is easy. If this was a Clie only test, I prefer the movie and audio player from Sony for my use, but it is proprietary and I don't use WM files.

8. He is right, Palm OS has more title, but only by about a 3 to 2 ratio. The number of PPC titles has mushroomed in the last couple of years since MS released free development tools. At least PalmSource appears to have learned this lesson with the Cobalt developer tools. In both cases, the vast majority of the titles are crap, but you should be able to find what you need for either device.


On the whole, this is as bad as any review I have ever seen. Even when he is correct about things, it is more luck than real knowledge. Not to mention that when Cobalt units start hitting the shelves, it all becomes moot.

[archangel]

He was right in every single area if its a high end Palm vs a high end PPC. Again if you are going to do Zire 21 vs Ipaq then the PPC will win in more areas. However, this is also a victory for the Palm OS. Instead of every device being a carbon copy of every other one, the Palm OS gives us a multitude of options.

I could easily say my NX80 wins round 2 because I have a thumboard most PPCs don't have one. Not to mention Decuma.

I find that the address book and calendar are easier to use on the Palm OS, but if you want to give this one to the PPC I guess.

Palm wins round 4 without question. I have never dealt with the nightmares I had trying to Activesync with my Ipaq on the Palm OS. Activesync sucks. No way that round is a draw. Even the Clie can work on a Mac with the right software.

Again, with round 5 its pretty much Palm brand vs PPC. If you want to say PPC beats Clie in this round fine. I can easily add versamail to my device if I want to though.

Any Palm bundled with Docs to Go easily beats the PPC in round 6. The built in apps like Pocket Word and Excel on the PPC pale in comparison. The thing is its easy to add Docs to Go or Quick Office to any Palm OS handheld. With the PPC you are stuck with the built in crap. Palm wins.

Round 7 is the PPCs really only major advantage and its shrinking.

Round 8 is still an advantage for Palm. When I owned a PPC I could never find half of the programs I had used on my Clie. Its better now but there is still a big gap in that area.

Palm wins the battle easily and with its great variety of handhelds you can buy exactly as simple or as fancy of a device as you want. PPC is just the same old, same old year in and year out.

[foghead]

archangel -

I am all for brand loyalty, but you missed the point completely. The comparison states that it is a comparison of Windows Mobile 2003 vs Palm OS 5.2.1. Once you atart adding in software that is not part of the core OS, you need to do it uniformly.

This PPC comes with VersaMail. Fine - the unit pictured is an iPAQ 4150 that comes with VPN, IP Phone, and a much better email client. They are part of the product not the platform.

By the same token, Docs-To-Go is pretty good, but it isn't part of the platform. There are actually much better Office programs for PPC, like TextMaker, SpreadCE, PocketSlides, but they aren't part of the platform either and have no business in this discussion.

This is one of the most glaring flaws with this article. They compare the TT3 bundle against the PPC platfarm and ignore the bundle that comes with the unit they are using for the comparison.

I'm not trying to turn this into a platform war, just trying to show why this comparison sucks.

I would actually be interested in a reasonably clean comparison between these two devices as shipped. I think that outside of the bias of the reviewer (we all have 'em), it would come out pretty even.

BTW - I have been using both Palm OS and Windows CE since version 1.0 and through the years I have always had more problems with HotSynch than ActiveSynch, but your mileage may vary.


Now I am off to see if I can find a TH55 . :)

[Unregistered]

i think the point is not necc if he is right or wrong -- but that rick broida is a well known early palm os user and writer and author of several how to palm os books, including how to use a clie. although he does write for handheld computing, he has yet to write a single how to ppc book, and is probably not the most objective person to write a comparison article. while he may in fact be correct, he doesn't come across as objective from his history.

[Unregistered]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072230746/102-4841608-3151362?v=glance

and here's what i mean. you expect him to write an objective comparison review?

[Unregistered]

http://topics.practical.org/browse/Rick_Broida


check out all the palm os books that rick brioda has written......

[Unregistered]

if rick broida didn't recommend palm os, how would he sell his books??

[lostether]

Honestly if an "unbiased" person did this type of review it probably wouldn't be worth reading as they wouldn't know enough about PDA's in the first place. Sure there are lots of people, even here on Cliesource, that claim to use both and claim to be able to look at it objectively, but deep down everyone has pretty much made up their mind about which platform they believe to be superior. That said, any comparison that chooses the "lesser" platform as superior is obviously flawed. This is in no way a claim that this particular comparison is completely fair and unbiased - I just think the right platform won, and probably in more areas than the comparison suggests ;)

[UFG]

Well all in all it just comes down to personal preference, I think. I know a lot of people who are confused by Palm OS, as well as a lot of people who are confused by PocketPC. And, of course, there are also those people who are confused by anything with a power button.

[archangel]

Palm has been giving away Docs to Go with their high end handhelds for quite awhile. Its even built into the Rom of the T3. I don't know how it can be dismissed. If your PDA comes with free software it has to count towards the whole.

We can go back and forth, but I felt the article was fairly accurate. Palm OS devices vary too much to be exact on a purely OS 5.2 vs PPC comparison.

It would be more accurate to do it by devices, but probably not of much interest to users of other devices.

[Unregistered]

if you think about it, docs to go didnt ship with the nx73 or later clies. those came with picsel viewer, which doesnt allow editing the docs. Thus, all palms dont come with dtg.

Either way, pocket word and pocket excel are part of Windows, picsel viewer and dtg are 3th party apps and dont count. I completely agree with foghead.

[archangel]

I will admit thats the problem with the article. Is it T3 vs PPC or Zire vs PPC or NX80V vs PPC or what? Palm devices vary too much to do a general comparison.

If its T3 vs PPC then the article is pretty accurate though. IF DTG is in the Rom of the device it most certainly counts. The T3 even has a built in Today screen. Just because the Clie doesn't it can't be dismissed.

Using that logic we can only compare the lowest end Palm to the PPC and the Zire will lose.

[yr3698]

If ppcs had better screen resolution, i would take them more seriously. The e805 is nice, but i dont have that kind of money.
Regarding the article, i dont think any article can give a good enough comparision as everyone is biased.
Besides, whats the use of such a comparision. Customers only get an OS that is customized and surrounded by bundled software. It would be better to view each device individually and list its strenghts and weaknesses.

[guinness]

My take on the article:

Rd. 1 - personal preference - PPC looks and acts like Windows, if you want you can add icon launchers to the today screen. Both do the same basic tasks though.

Rd. 2 - PPC - I have 5 input choices installed on my Axim X5: Block Recongnizer, Decuma, the standard KB, Letter Recongnizer, and Transcriber. I've been using Decuma more and more, but I'm faster with the Letter Recongnizer. Some of the iPaqs have thumboards too, but I don't like those.

Rd. 3 - inc. I think they're both weak, I ended up installing a 3rd party PIM (Pocket Informant).

Rd. 4 - inc. (would give the edge to POS, but they're beginning to fragment with some of the newer devices). ActiveSync is fine, as long you use Outlook.

Rd.5 - POS, but I hate reading e-mail on a tiny screen though too, the lower res and weak features of pOutlook hurt it.

Rd. 6 - inc, more choices for POS, some are better out of the box, but if you're will to shell out some $$$ on the PPC side, it doesn't get much better than Textmaker (and their Excel replacement).

Rd. 7 - PPC for now, I'm interested in POS 6.0 in this regard, both can play music.

Rd. 8 - POS, but how many of those apps are clones of clones?

Winner - flip a coin, I'm waiting on OS 6, WM 2004, or newer Symbian devices before I upgrade again.

[abid786]

Originally posted by LupeValenz
Go Palm OS! :D, though they should have put up a sony NZ model for the competion instead of the T3 and we would have won in the data input function with the Graffiti AND Decuma input. Oh well, as long as Palm put a beat down on PPC I'm all happy :D.

Even with Decuma and Graffiti, the PPC still has that curasive thing, which simply doesn't work for me, but CNet likes it...

Abid

[viper_2_4]

Round 1: I get enough MS Windows XP everywhere else I go, I don't need to see it on my PDA, plus I don't think the screen is big enough for a start button style interface.....

[Unregistered]

I would like tothrow my two cents in.

I agree with the ppl who say the review is biased. It was a political move to make that article. Why not boost sales of palm and keeps his books comin. Anyway I am pretty biased too I guess. I use a pocket pc. In fact I have had three.

I must agree about the games. quantity vs quality pocket pc and palm are even. Honestly, with the aid of add ons, name one thing a pocket pc cant do that a palm can, or visa versa. You really cant. One thing I miss about my palm is the game Spacewars (knock off dopewars) and the ability to share programs through IR.

The number one thing to remember about pocket pc is that it is a PC and a mac or *nux user shouldnt bother using it. It isnt really for them. It is ment to be a little add on to your PC and really nothing eles. It is not a stand alone device. Niether is palm.

I know what people mean whne they say Activesync sucks. 3.5 was buggy and a pain sometimes. 3.6 was better. Occasionaly bugged. 3.7 is here and it is bueno. I think hotsync has gotten a lot better too. I cant really say which is better becuase I havent used the latest hotsync.


My two cents could continue but my bottom line point is... WHO CARES WHAT DEVICE OTHER PEOPLE LIKE? it is about what you like and it isnt cool to shove your ideas down other people's throats.

[Unregistered]

Hey Unregistered - It's a freaking big deal for me if uSoft killed POS or at least buy it.

I don't like their business practice.

Go register and rent the "Pirates of the Silicon Valley"
better yet rent "The Doomsday gun".

[Unregistered]

Rick Broida's article is one form of "Free Speech"

[cnycompguy]

Holy cow!!! it's a war of the unreg's
every one duck and run for cover, or just laugh at them getting their panties in a bunch :P

[ClieKun]

Originally posted by archangel
Biased? The right platform won in every area.
Another one of thee from Cnet :rolleyes:

[RD100]

This ongoing competition between Palm and PPC is just plain stupid.

Both OS's are great in their own ways. 

Why even try to pick a winner between them ?

Just buy the one which works for you , and makes you happy.

You won't go wrong with either platform.

[ClieKun]

agreed.........PPC and PalmOS can live side by side..........I want to own both.

[kjbad]

Originally posted by RD100
This ongoing competition between Palm and PPC is just plain stupid.

Both OS's are great in their own ways. 

Why even try to pick a winner between them ?

Just buy the one which works for you , and makes you happy.

You won't go wrong with either platform.

Competition sells...so they will keep it going for as long as possible. Besides, everybody wants to take down the Wintel conspiracy, which is why Palm OS is so important. If there were no Palm devices, can you imagine the lack of innovation from Microsoft? :eek:

[sigelang]

"Pirates of the Silicon Valley" and "The Doomsday gun".

I've seen both and they are base in real life. They are good movies and really entertaining.

______________________
A crazy and bright Engineer modified the Scuds so it overcame the distance limitation.

But hey how come Americans Patriot Missiles was not mentioned in the movie.

The Patriots destroyed the Scuds.

[kalunlee]

I think palm and pocket pc games quality about the same after i tried GTS Racing and warfare on my NX80V THey are amazing, the graphics are just NICE. This is the first time I bought any pda but overall I like palmOS better before I HATE WINDWOS now after used it for years in fact now I use mandrake linux more than my windows xp now :)

[anitanium]

palm is simple
PPC is complex
clie is somewhere between

enuff said

[ClieKun]

Well if you mean Between Heaven and Hell Thats where clies are :D

[Spiral]

Originally posted by kjbad
If there were no Palm devices, can you imagine the lack of innovation from Microsoft? :eek:
Windows on desktop is used in nearly every computer, but they're still innovating for Longhorn.

[RD100]

Originally posted by kalunlee
I think palm and pocket pc games quality about the same after i tried GTS Racing and warfare on my NX80V THey are amazing, the graphics are just NICE. This is the first time I bought any pda but overall I like palmOS better before I HATE WINDWOS now after used it for years in fact now I use mandrake linux more than my windows xp now :)

If you have a Pocket PC available, try a demo of Virtual Pool Mobile (http://www.celeris.com/games/VPMobile/overview.html). And listen to this game using headphones to hear the high quality sound.

After playing the demo, I would then be curious what your opinion was between Palm and PPC for gaming ?

[RD100]

Originally posted by anitanium
palm is simple
PPC is complex
clie is somewhere between

enuff said

The above doesn't make any sense ????

Clie = Palm. They both run the same OS.

And PPC is just as easy to use as Palm. I know this from my personal experience of using both platforms. 

[kjbad]

Originally posted by Spiral

Windows on desktop is used in nearly every computer, but they're still innovating for Longhorn.

They have to innovate because there's competition out there. The last thing Microsoft needs is an open-source code like Linux making Windows look unnecessary.

The whole reason Microsoft doesn't OWN the handheld market is because they didn't try to make Windows scalable until consumers started to demand more wireless devices. Microsoft should have been working on this 10-15 years ago, but they never saw handhelds as a potential market and didn't even try to innovate until they had to save face.

What handheld devices did Microsoft support before Palm Pilots came out?

[melty]

Originally posted by kjbad


They have to innovate because there's competition out there. The last thing Microsoft needs is an open-source code like Linux making Windows look unnecessary.

The whole reason Microsoft doesn't OWN the handheld market is because they didn't try to make Windows scalable until consumers started to demand more wireless devices. Microsoft should have been working on this 10-15 years ago, but they never saw handhelds as a potential market and didn't even try to innovate until they had to save face.

What handheld devices did Microsoft support before Palm Pilots came out?

Good point, but hindsight is 20-20. It's not as if microsoft is sitting on their hands, they are becoming infamous for trying to innovate (err, speculate) in what they see as up-and-coming technologies. Anyone heard of Smart Displays? What about tablet PCs and Windows XP Tablet Edition? These are big, expensive failures that microsoft should be ashamed of, and one day they're going to realize they can't venture too far from their core competency (i.e. windows and office). They've stumbled with PPC but i think they're getting on the right track, I just hope they don't dump it for watered-down smartphone editions when they realize they just aren't making any real profit from PDAs.

Personally, I think this is an exciting time for handhelds and we've reached a turning point where they can truly become a laptop replacement. There's going to be a crapload of new high-resolution PDAs (both PPC and hopefully POS) coming by the end of 2004, and don't forget the upcoming mini-PCs such as the Vulcan Flipstart and the OQO computer, full windows XP computers in PDA form-factor that are less than 16 ounces. *drool* I can't wait until there's 6 equally good PDA alternatives and I don't need to buy the highest-end option in order to get the functionality I want. At this moment, though, that isn't true, PPC or Palm or whatever. :(

[kjbad]

Originally posted by melty


They've stumbled with PPC but i think they're getting on the right track, I just hope they don't dump it for watered-down smartphone editions when they realize they just aren't making any real profit from PDAs...I can't wait until there's 6 equally good PDA alternatives and I don't need to buy the highest-end option in order to get the functionality I want. At this moment, though, that isn't true, PPC or Palm or whatever. :(

Looks like Microsoft is bringing back Windows CE too...check out Samsung's new "handheld".

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Dec/bpd20031217022481.htm

[kjbad]

Originally posted by melty


Good point, but hindsight is 20-20. It's not as if microsoft is sitting on their hands, they are becoming infamous for trying to innovate (err, speculate) in what they see as up-and-coming technologies. Anyone heard of Smart Displays? What about tablet PCs and Windows XP Tablet Edition? These are big, expensive failures that microsoft should be ashamed of, and one day they're going to realize they can't venture too far from their core competency (i.e. windows and office). They've stumbled with PPC but i think they're getting on the right track, I just hope they don't dump it for watered-down smartphone editions when they realize they just aren't making any real profit from PDAs.



Microsoft wasn't innovating or speculating, they were trying to convince consumers that Microsoft knew what consumers wanted better than consumers themselves. Tablet PCs are great in the doctor's office, but they don't make sense in the real world. Same with WebTV and every other hair-brained scheme Microsoft came up with to separate people from their money.

Right now, what is the limiter for PDAs, software or hardware?

[melty]

Looks like Microsoft is bringing back Windows CE too...check out Samsung's new "handheld".


Yeah I played with the Nexio at a conference a few weeks ago, I liked the more-like-windows feel but that thing is way too expensive and, like many things from dynamism, it's not completely english-ified.

BTW as I'm sure you know, all PPC's are based on windows CE as well, the nexio just has a different wrapper. Linux is related to the linux kernel just as WM2003 is related to Windows CE. The latest "core" OS is Windows CE.NET, I'm not sure to what extent WM2003 SE is going to be incorporating .NET, if at all.

Microsoft wasn't innovating or speculating, they were trying to convince consumers that Microsoft knew what consumers wanted better than consumers themselves. Tablet PCs are great in the doctor's office, but they don't make sense in the real world. Same with WebTV and every other hair-brained scheme Microsoft came up with to separate people from their money.

Trying to separate people from their money IS innovating, according to microsoft :).

Right now, what is the limiter for PDAs, software or hardware?

Hands down I'd say it's software. We have fast processors, awesome touchscreen displays (at least coming soon), and lots of bells and whistles, but you have to admit, in most cases we're still stuck with software that makes Windows 3.1 look good, on both palm AND ppc (IMHO). Portability, battery, and small-size display issues aside, name one thing about Palm/PPC apps that is equal to or significantly better than Windows 3.1-era software? The BEST pda web browsers can't touch old-school IE and netscape, and the best pda word processors are no better than wordpad. Cmon developers, windows 3.1 ran fine on 90 MHz processors, 16 MB of ram, and 80MB hard disks =).

[sigelang]

Cmon developers, windows 3.1 ran fine on 90 MHz processors, 16 MB of ram, and 80MB hard disks =).

Bec. win3.x was based on DOS6.22/x86 - And PALM OS is based
on C code/PPC.

Meaning PALM is lean , neat and less meat.

[melty]

Originally posted by sigelang
Bec. win3.x was based on DOS6.22/x86 - And PALM OS is based on C code/PPC.

Meaning PALM is lean , neat and less meat.

But that's a significant concession. PDAs will have a hard time staying lean and neat when people want sophisitcated PIM apps, multi-threaded background apps, great games, great multimedia, and responsive web browsers. Cobalt is only the beginning, how long before they need nearly every API and service found on a windows box. Either the apps will get bloated, the OS, or both.

Don't forget that DOS was pretty lightweight as well (and probably optimized quite a bit in assembly in _addition_ to C), PalmOS isn't special because it's coded in C. I bet the source tree for Cobalt is bigger than any DOS version produced for x86, and beginning to meet the size of early windows versions. Windows isn't/wasn't written in VB either. Certainly Pocket PCs with CE.NET are already at/near the level of sophistication of windows 3.1 in terms of code bloat.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by melty

Hands down I'd say it's software. We have fast processors, awesome touchscreen displays (at least coming soon), and lots of bells and whistles, but you have to admit, in most cases we're still stuck with software that makes Windows 3.1 look good, on both palm AND ppc (IMHO).
I'd say it's more the hardware. and most specifically the battery. I heard someone say that Intel could have made plenty faster processors, but it'd just kill the battery. VGA screens drain batter. Wireless (which is really catching on now), with wifi/bt/gprs all in one, drains even more battery. All the hardware you mentioned aren't limiting pda's too much, but they're all limited by how much battery you have.

[melty]

Originally posted by Spiral

I'd say it's more the hardware. and most specifically the battery. I heard someone say that Intel could have made plenty faster processors, but it'd just kill the battery. VGA screens drain batter. Wireless (which is really catching on now), with wifi/bt/gprs all in one, drains even more battery. All the hardware you mentioned aren't limiting pda's too much, but they're all limited by how much battery you have.

I'd agree that battery capacity vs. increases in power demands is a primary hardware challenge, but software is still the biggest challenge for PDAs overall. Hardware advancements are fairly predictable, e.g. Moore's law and such, and although (for example) leakage in CMOS processes beyond 0.13 micron is a monumental hardware problem, it still pales in comparison to the software challenge, which is as much social and market-driven as it is technology. Batteries are not what keeps a 400 MHz PDA from being a laptop replacement, it's the software running on it. With unlimited software funding we could get windows-XP level functionality and usability on today's hardware while still maintaining decent battery life. There is nothing fundamental preventing this, the hardware on a high-end PDA is really fantastic if you think about it.

So why aren't we there? There's a tremendous mismatch between hardware and software R&D for PDAs. There are lots of small and under-funded struggling companies (yes, palm is one of them) trying to innovate on the software side. But look at microsoft, with their deep pockets, they can't even get the PDA software quite right because the tiny PDA market doesn't justify the added R&D. On the other hand, there are probably 6-10 semiconductor giants working on solving the low-power, high-speed processor and peripheral arena because it's not just PDAs, it's a much bigger world they're tackling, it's the entire space of embedded computing. And the giants need to pay dearly for such innovation - Intel spends over $6B per year on semiconductor R&D, how much do you think is spent on PDA-related software by ALL companies combined? A small fraction of that for sure, PalmSource owns 60% of the US PDA market and the entire freaking company is only worth $250M by market capitolization!!! And $6B is just from intel. What about IBM, TI, ARM, TSMC?

[kjbad]

Melty, you made my point perfectly. Microsoft currently has THREE different handheld software configurations. Why? Not enough commitment to make one product better.

Want new hardware? You only have to wait 2-3 months for the latest device. The inovation is all over the place in new form factors - regardless of the OS used. There's a form for every need, from Asus to Zodiac.

Want new software? Hmm...how long have we been waiting for Cobalt now? And all Microsoft and Sony can offer are patches and apologies. I'm sorry, but if Clie Organizer is the best that Sony can do in-house, then we're in trouble. And with Intel's new chips, how many new instructions must be written to take advantage of the new features? I'm holding my breath.

Why don't we have CF slots that work? Simple...Sony changed the software so we couldn't use the hardware. You actually had to know someone who could hack the slot in order to use it!!

And Sony's new high-speed MS is a direct result of using new hardware to overcome the limitations of software. Just like the 128 x 2 MS, new hardware overcame the limitations of the software.

How long did it take for Sony to "allow" other music players on their devices? That was purely a software issue, due to Sony's arrogance.

Ask yourself, can I use my game controller or my KB-20 on my brand-new Clie? Sure.
Now ask yourself if you can use OS5 on an SJ33. Is it because the SJ would run too slowly? No...it's because you can't upgrade SOFTWARE.

Now does that sound like advanced software innovation to you? :rolleyes:

[Spiral]

Originally posted by melty

I'd agree that battery capacity vs. increases in power demands is a primary hardware challenge, but software is still the biggest challenge for PDAs overall. Hardware advancements are fairly predictable, e.g. Moore's law and such, and although (for example) leakage in CMOS processes beyond 0.13 micron is a monumental hardware problem, it still pales in comparison to the software challenge, which is as much social and market-driven as it is technology. Batteries are not what keeps a 400 MHz PDA from being a laptop replacement, it's the software running on it. With unlimited software funding we could get windows-XP level functionality and usability on today's hardware while still maintaining decent battery life. There is nothing fundamental preventing this, the hardware on a high-end PDA is really fantastic if you think about it.
Maybe it's something more fundamental than software or hardware limiting devices: PDA's aren't suppose to replace laptops. You could only have that by creating windows xp on different hardware, because whatever you do, you still lack the software of windows xp. I can't put a laptop in my pocket, that's why I put my pda in my pocket. My laptop can't start-up instantly. It also has a battery the size of my pda (just the battery!). Till a year ago, screens that would allow for windows xp functionality didn't exist. If you want windows xp functionality get an OQO, it'll cost you though. Software can't create a miracle of extending battery life, having a huge screen, which has to be blit to quick enough.

Has Moore's law kept up with handheld computing? We've had 400 mhz chips since 2002 (June 2002 was the release of the toshiba e740 w/ 400 mhz pxa250). And chips now in april 2004 are only at 624 mhz (and they won't be in consumer's hands till at least may/june or later). Each generation of pxa2XX chips has used consistently less power for greater speed.

Originally posted by kjbad
Melty, you made my point perfectly. Microsoft currently has THREE different handheld software configurations. Why? Not enough commitment to make one product better.
They're all for different things. PPC is for handheld pda's. WINCE is more for embedded systems, and Smartphone is for phone with a little outlook syncing. I think the different configurations is so you don't have too much uneeded power in some consumers hands. For example, a smartphone has much smaller size, at the expense of ability to enter data, but what if you don't need to enter data and want a more phone-centric device? Then smartphone fits perfectly. Palm is doing the same thing, with Garnet targeting low-end handhelds/phones and Cobalt for high-end handhelds.

Originally posted by kjbad
Hmm...how long have we been waiting for Cobalt now? And all Microsoft and Sony can offer are patches and apologies. I'm sorry, but if Clie Organizer is the best that Sony can do in-house, then we're in trouble.

Why are you comparing Sony and Microsoft (sony = hardware), a better comparison would be Microsoft and PalmSource. And i haven't heard any apoligies from either sony/microsoft/palmsource. Personally, i think Sony makes good hardware, but their in-house software is poor.

Originally posted by kjbad
Now ask yourself if you can use OS5 on an SJ33. Is it because the SJ would run too slowly? No...it's because you can't upgrade SOFTWARE.

Actually, it's the hardware that negates any benefit of upgrading the sj33 to os5. OS5 runs only on ARM-processors, the SJ-33 has an old Motorla 68k processor, so it's really a hardware issue at the start, even with the proper software, it wouldn't run: wrong chip, wrong instruction set.

Originally posted by kjbad
And Sony's new high-speed MS is a direct result of using new hardware to overcome the limitations of software. Just like the 128 x 2 MS, new hardware overcame the limitations of the software.[/B]
Actually, sony's new MS is because the f'ed up the Memory Stick Pro, which was suppose to be magicgate compatible. That x2 business is also ridiculous, lame gimmick for their hardware failures to make a decent 256 mb memory stick w/o going pro. And their reported "hi-speed" is also a gimmick, it's only theoretical, and you need a quick bus to send data that fast, you won't reach 20 MB/sec on any Clie (or else you could backup in one second).

[melty]

I can't put a laptop in my pocket, that's why I put my pda in my pocket. My laptop can't start-up instantly. It also has a battery the size of my pda (just the battery!). Till a year ago, screens that would allow for windows xp functionality didn't exist. If you want windows xp functionality get an OQO, it'll cost you though.

I disagree, I think PDAs are destined to replace many current uses of notebook computers, and not only that, i think they should. The major uses of notebook computers for business professionals is on-the-road communication (email, web), notetaking, document preparation, presentations, and multimedia. Surprise surprise, guess what PDAs are starting to do? Once they are acceptable in these areas, people will start leaving the 4 pound notebook behind for an 8-ounce PDA.

There is a undeniable push towards convergence between PDAs and ultralight notebook computers, and it's only going to continue as notebooks shrink and PDAs get more powerful. This is a steaming locomotive that cannot be stopped.

The instant-on issue can be solved by improvements in wakeup-from-standby in Windows, which can become arbitrarily fast if you can spin a new generation of windows (which microsoft can). You can also solve instant-on with peripherals. I'm excited about the Vulcan Flipstart PC because you can check your email and basic PIM functions on a small external LCD without starting up the whole PC, err, PDA. Besides, on a well-configured windows installation you can get WinXP to wakeup from standby in less than 5-6 seconds.

Has Moore's law kept up with handheld computing? We've had 400 mhz chips since 2002 (June 2002 was the release of the toshiba e740 w/ 400 mhz pxa250). And chips now in april 2004 are only at 624 mhz (and they won't be in consumer's hands till at least may/june or later). Each generation of pxa2XX chips has used consistently less power for greater speed.

The lack of faster PDA processors has everything to do with the PDA market, and not Moore's law. Intel demonstrated a 1 GHz XScale processor years ago in standard 0.18 micron technology. Intel has also been shipping 700 MHz XScales in Intel network infrastructure products since 2002 - it's the exact same core processor as the PXA255. Even ARM has been advertising the ability to produce 500+ MHz ARM9's in 0.13 micron for a while, but there are few takers in the PDA space.

The issue of slow PXA2xx and other PDA processors is one of unjustified cost. Until now, and arguably still, PDAs don't need 1 GHz processors, and the $250-$500 cost of PDAs hasn't justified the development of highly-integrated sub-GHz $100 PXA2xx parts. Throw in some power consumption issues, and that's all there is to it.

XScale also has a relatively short 7-stage pipeline (compared to faster superscalar processors), which prevents it from ever reaching beyond 1-1.2 GHz. So, they're improving performance with architectural improvements such as Wireless MMX (which is very powerful, it's not just MMX, it's also integer SSE instructions). ARM9's tend to be slower than XScale because they have even-shorter 5 stage pipelines. If intel wanted, they could redesign the architecture with more pipeline stages and really crank up the MHz, but like I said, this isn't justified due to the relatively low performance demands of PDAs nor the added cost.

One last thing... The power consumption of the PXA2xx series has been consistently increasing with increases in MHz, quite linearly in fact. Check the datasheets.

[kbox]

A few points:

1. I don't agree with what he said about input. My TH-55 can handle Decuma which comes free with the TH-55 (£30 if bought separately; my particular jury's out on that), G2 and the Virtual Keyboard. The Palm Wireless Keyboard I use for heavy-duty typing is also much cheaper, faster and more reliable than the one I bought for my IPAQ (£49 vs £100). I sent back my IPAQ Keyboard.

2. The category for Office files should not have been equal. DTG is far far better than Pocket Word, Excel and offers native file support out of the box. I've tried the other office suites for Palm and i come back to DTG every time. I also had Textmaker for Pocket PC which ran like an elephant with a broken leg. There is also limited support for Presentations in DTG, for which software you have to shell out for separately on the Pocket PC.

3. I accept what he says about multimedia, however my TH-55 is a darned good MP3 player, has a camera, plus the ability to play movies. The resolution on my photos with the TH-55 screen is superb and this same screen shows to great effect the snaps I take with my Nokia 3650 (Bluetoothed to my TH-55), never mind the Clie Camera, which is functional if nothing else.

These are my first thoughts, if I have any more I'll post them, but well done to CNET for a thoughtful article. Having had Pocket PCs, Palms and Psions, I maintain that the choice is always in the hands of the purchaser based upon what they're looking for. I went back to Palm because I felt you got more bang per buck, and my TH-55, though a Sony "Palm" machine, is living proof (well, at least it is when I've got it switched on). I've also had fewer crashes since I've come back to Palm.