Keyboards

[Unregistered]

Anyone tried the Pocketop Keyboard, the wireless-IR keyboard?

[sralmas]

Unless I missed something, there is no driver.

Hang in there. Fellowes will be releasing a Stowaway-family keyboard for the NX (slated for April). I am also told that the next NX will be backwardly compatible with existing KB11s.

Also, you may want to consider registering with Cliesource as you are far more likely to get a response if you register. Some folks will not respond to messages from unregistered users.

[Donkeystyle]

can i get the name "unregistered"? :)

[roper]

Does it really take that long to write a keyboard driver, sheesh! :(

There are so many keyboard companies out there & not 1 makes a keyboard for the NX70V.

Sorry, I just had to vent..

[KlondikeLip]

Originally posted by sralmas
I am also told that the next NX will be backwardly compatible with existing KB11s.


"I have spoken with a representative from ThinkOutside, and the official statement is that the current Sony NX will never be compatible with the current Sony KB-11 keyboard." -memoware

Here's the full article:
http://www.memoware.com/mw.cgi?screen=feature_1

And that sucks since I bought the KB11 for my SJ30 a month before I upgraded to an NX70. Oh well...now anxiously awaiting the Fellowes keyboard.

[pusfarm]

Originally posted by KlondikeLip
"I have spoken with a representative from ThinkOutside, and the official statement is that the current Sony NX will never be compatible with the current Sony KB-11 keyboard." -memoware

Here's the full article:
http://www.memoware.com/mw.cgi?screen=feature_1

And that sucks since I bought the KB11 for my SJ30 a month before I upgraded to an NX70. Oh well...now anxiously awaiting the Fellowes keyboard. Memoware has changed the link to this story.  Here's the new one:

http://www.memoware.com/mw.cgi/?screen=feature_20030213

No matter where the story comes from, the news still STINKS!  I have a feeling Fellowes will sell a lot of these suckers even if Belkin pulls their thumbs out and gets something out for the NX.

[W202 028]

I know I will buy a keyboard as soon as one comes out...

I just hope its soon

[Oboron]

My whole question is why Sony did not make these NX's backward compatible, but will make the future models?

[Gadgeteer_7]

I wished Belkin would get one done

[AndyK]

I've got to say: this KB11/NX70V thing is really outrageous. When I was shopping around for a PDA late last year, I saw a chart -- put out by Sony -- listing their current models and showing which current accessories are compatible. The KB11 was listed for the NX70V with a footnote saying "Not currently compatible, but will be once a driver is written," or words to that effect.

For those of us for whom a real keyboard option was a necessity, this really sucks. I love my NX70V, but I would have bought something else if I had known we were going to have this problem. And, even if Fellowes didn't realize the problem, Sony *had* to know that their messing with the connector would screw things up.

And does this mean that when I get a keyboard for my NX70V it will almost surely not be compatible with anything I upgrade to in the future?

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by AndyK
I've got to say: this KB11/NX70V thing is really outrageous. When I was shopping around for a PDA late last year, I saw a chart -- put out by Sony -- listing their current models and showing which current accessories are compatible. The KB11 was listed for the NX70V with a footnote saying "Not currently compatible, but will be once a driver is written," or words to that effect.

For those of us for whom a real keyboard option was a necessity, this really sucks. I love my NX70V, but I would have bought something else if I had known we were going to have this problem. And, even if Fellowes didn't realize the problem, Sony *had* to know that their messing with the connector would screw things up.

And does this mean that when I get a keyboard for my NX70V it will almost surely not be compatible with anything I upgrade to in the future?

Classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing!

[SW Geek]

AndyK: And does this mean that when
I get a keyboard for my NX70V it will
almost surely not be compatible with
anything I upgrade to in the future?

"I understand" that the Fellowes branded version of the Think Outside Stowaway KBs works with all current "T-Series connector" Clies. "I also understand" that Sony will be making their connectors work with the KB11. This means that you /should/ be okay...

[mashoutposse]

And Palm said that the Tungsten would have true mp3 playback support by Christmas, courtesy of Real.

Point? These things happen. You can't always blame one company for the incompetence of another.

The NX connector works with the Game Controller, another T-series connector device (although that too needed a special NX driver). I don't see any reason why a driver hasn't been written yet -- it's obviously not impossible.

[OcellNuri]

Actually, it is impossible without modifying the circuitry of the keyboard. The actual hardware inside the hotsync connector has been modified. Sony removed a pull up resistor that established a voltage on the serial line (I think I have all of that right). This voltage is needed to put the Clie into "serial mode" and see the keyboard that is connected. Without this voltage, the Clie sees the keyboard as a hotsync request. This can be fixed by adding this resisitor on the keyboard, instead of having it in the hotsync connector.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.. it's late.

[SW Geek]

The NX has different circuitry for the Serial port's data line - That's the problem.

The Game Controller had circuitry that compensated for the data line not being pulled up.

The KB11 was designed to work with the published specs for the T-Connectors. The NX did not meet the specs published by Sony. This was brrought to Sony's attention a couple weeks after the NX was released in Japan.

The KB11/Stowaway Driver _has_ been written to work with the NX and OS5. Trust me on this <grin>. Pre-release versions of it are floating around, but these Drivers will not work with an (unmodified) KB11 and an NX. period.

[MVives]

Anyone know if the Belkin G700 keyboard is also affected by the NX hardware "problem"? In other words, will a new driver allow the G700 to work with the NX? If so, is a new driver coming from Belkin? Thanks in advance for any info.

[OcellNuri]

Dont' throw in the towel on the Belkin. Albert Hon has recently gotten a NX to test the G700 on. Sony has communicated that hardware is not a problem, contradicting what they have said previously. Common for Sony though. There is no official word on the G700 yet, but don't count it out until we get official word from Belkin.

[Pen-Pen]

Originally posted by OcellNuri
Actually, it is impossible without modifying the circuitry of the keyboard. The actual hardware inside the hotsync connector has been modified. Sony removed a pull up resistor that established a voltage on the serial line (I think I have all of that right). This voltage is needed to put the Clie into "serial mode" and see the keyboard that is connected. Without this voltage, the Clie sees the keyboard as a hotsync request. This can be fixed by adding this resisitor on the keyboard, instead of having it in the hotsync connector.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.. it's late.

Originally posted by SW Geek
The NX has different circuitry for the Serial port's data line - That's the problem.

The Game Controller had circuitry that compensated for the data line not being pulled up.

The KB11 was designed to work with the published specs for the T-Connectors. The NX did not meet the specs published by Sony. This was brrought to Sony's attention a couple weeks after the NX was released in Japan.

The KB11/Stowaway Driver _has_ been written to work with the NX and OS5. Trust me on this <grin>. Pre-release versions of it are floating around, but these Drivers will not work with an (unmodified) KB11 and an NX. period.

Well, do you know what type of resistor or circuitry, and on which connector it will have to be applied.

If you could find me all of this, and if the circuitry was easy to find, I could test it and send a modification guide.

[OcellNuri]

I've attatched screenshots from the Sony Dev PDF. It tells the values of resistance you need for the unit to recognize certain hardware, but I'm guessing these values are assuming the pullup resistor is still in the hotsync port. It looks like we need around 4.5V on, I'm kinda guessing here... the CNT line.

Even if you get the hardware working though, you have to talk Think Outside into releasing drivers for the NX.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ocellnuri/clie/spec1.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~ocellnuri/clie/spec2.jpg


Why are these showing up as links and not the image?

[sstrasser86]

so does this mean we can't EVER? use a keyboard w/ this?

[Donkeystyle]

we will be able to when new keyboards for the nx come out.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by sstrasser86
so does this mean we can't EVER? use a keyboard w/ this?

It means you won't be able to use the existing keyboards now without modification. Providing that it is even possible.

[Pen-Pen]

Originally posted by OcellNuri
I've attatched screenshots from the Sony Dev PDF. It tells the values of resistance you need for the unit to recognize certain hardware, but I'm guessing these values are assuming the pullup resistor is still in the hotsync port. It looks like we need around 4.5V on, I'm kinda guessing here... the CNT line.

Even if you get the hardware working though, you have to talk Think Outside into releasing drivers for the NX.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ocellnuri/clie/spec1.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~ocellnuri/clie/spec2.jpg


Why are these showing up as links and not the image?

I've already open my keyboard, and there is a little problem, there is a 22Kohm resistor, and the palce where is the resistor was not easy to access.

I will take some photos, and think to find a solution to have a 47Kohm resistor instead of the 22 one

Pictures of the 22Kohm resistor
http://pen.2.free.fr/images/DSCF0249.JPG
http://pen.2.free.fr/images/DSCF0246.JPG

[LanMan]

Sorry, to butt-in but I am a little curious about why all of you NR/NX users are interested in a 3rd party keyboard. Isn't the NR/NX integrated keyboard sufficient? I'm really not trying to be obnoxious. I am only asking because I am considering buying the new TG50 with the thumbboard, and am wondering if it will satisfy my needs without buying a bunch of peripherals, i.e. keyboard.

[roper]

I use it (a peripheral keyboard) to take notes in class, type up reports. Then I just beam them to a infrared printer.

The thumb keyboard is too hard to use for anything else besides entering a contact, for example.

[Pen-Pen]

I use my clié to take notes in class, write som text etc etc.

The thumb keyboard is too small to write at a correct speed, that's why I've bought a KB11 when I have a NR, buy actually, I think I don't do the right choice to not resell it when I've sold the NR to buy an NX

[OcellNuri]

Exactly. I can do 30 wpm on the thumbkeyboard, but then I have to keep glancing down at the keyboard and back up at the screen. I cannot touch type on the thumb keyboard. With a full size keyboard I can reach 100wpm easily.

[OcellNuri]

Originally posted by Pen-Pen


I've already open my keyboard, and there is a little problem, there is a 22Kohm resistor, and the palce where is the resistor was not easy to access.

I will take some photos, and think to find a solution to have a 47Kohm resistor instead of the 22 one

Pictures of the 22Kohm resistor
http://pen.2.free.fr/images/DSCF0249.JPG
http://pen.2.free.fr/images/DSCF0246.JPG

Wow.. thats very small indeed. I know I don't have the tools to work on something like that... Too bad we don't need less resistance, we could just run a resistor in parallel!

[Pen-Pen]

We couldn't use resistor in parallel.

With the law of resistor in parallel, my scientific calculator indicates that we need à -41.36Kohms resistor (this value is impossible in reality)

But I have an idea about the modification, I'll try it and let you know

[OcellNuri]

Yea, I know that. What's why I was saying, it's a shame we don't need a lower resistance. Because that would be easy to accomplish. I was afraid that post may have been read wrong, I should have worded it better.

[Pen-Pen]

OK, after a little time of reflexion, I think I've found the solution

To make the modification we have to unweld (I'm right?) the 22Kohm resistor, and weld the 47Kohm one here

http://pen.2.free.fr/images/DSCF0251.JPG

between the two last pins at the left of the connector, with a small soldering iron I think it's possible.

[OcellNuri]

That sounds good. Before you take the leap... have you optained any drivers?

[Pen-Pen]

Not actually, I don't send them any mails.

I will send a mail this night.

[n2ifp]

It stinks that Sony wouldn't offer to modify or tell us how to modify the keyboards to make them operational. It leaves the users to jump through hoops in trying to effect a fix.

[Pen-Pen]

I agree with you, but if Sony wouldn't do it, they must give us some drivers (they can refuse until the true keyboard was released)

[SW Geek]

Wait! Don't remove or modify the 22K resistor.

Each Sony (and most Palm) peripheral has an identifying resistor. The OS detects when a peripheral is connected and detached. If an app is interested, it registers to get the OS to send a signal for these events. The 22K is unique to the Think Outside KB. This resistor gets transformed into a unique magic number that is sent with the signal. If you change the resistor, the Driver will not know that it is a KB any more.

There are OS5 Drivers floating around. Do a search for posts by imperial(?) or 'Pepper' on the PalmInfoCenter.com website. The most recent Driver on Palm's site (1.9.2?) was built more recently than the 1.9.6 Drivers you will see that are Sony branded.

I believe that all these Drivers will work with the NX IF the data line is pulled up.

The problem with the NX is that the data line (from the KB to the PDA) does not have the same internal pullup that the other PDAs (pre AND post-NX) have. The KB was designed to the specifications posted by Sony. After this was discovered, Sony changed the specs (and their post-NX PDAs), but there were already KBs and NX devices in consumer hands.

[OcellNuri]

Ok, Thanks SWGeek. We are trying to add that pullup to the keyboard. What pins do we need to do this on? Which pin is the data line?

[karasu]

I find it somewhat troublsome that SW GEEK has made numerous comments about this issue that show he has in-depth knowledge of the problem and access to the fix yet has done nothing to actually help the community with retro guides or tips.

It is as simple as saying bridge this voltage point using a ##K resistor to this point to pull up the voltage and it works.

If you actually have the info publish it or forward it to someone who will, but stop with the F***ing teasers! Giving users the false hope that they could use their older keyboards isn't fair.

If you don't I have to assume one of two things; You don't have a fix and are talking out your backside, or you do have a fix and are unwilling to share it (which makes you a wanker).

[Pen-Pen]

Okay, thanks SWgeeks!!

I've just tested the Tungsten T drivers with my NX, and the Keyboard was not reconized as a Craddle!!!!!

There is also a little problem, when I tap a key on the keyboard, the "a" for exemple the only thing that appears on my screen was a line of 15 "1", and the phone button act as a back-space button who delete the 15 "1", the space bar give me 15 "6".

I think there is no modification to do on the keyboard, nor on the Clié, we have just to wait a correct driver for the NX

[SW Geek]

The Driver _does_ work on an NX. I have seen it. Fellowes showed an earlier release of that Driver (with their brand) at CES in Las Vegas with Think Outside updated KBs. It worked. Sony has chosen to not update their KBs. It is _not_ a SW issue.

I sent you an email with more info.

[Pen-Pen]

Thanks for all SW Geek, I'll wait your mail

[OcellNuri]

Albert sent me a beta driver that works on the NX for the Belkin G700 keyboard. This is without hardware modification!

You can get it from the Yahoo Groups clie: nXtClieClub

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nXtClieClub/files/Belkin%20Keyboard%20Beta%20Updates/

[Pen-Pen]

These two keyboard are really differents (if not, why my KB11 doenot done the same thing he does with the TT driver)

Maybe the Hardware of the G700 allows with a little modification of the transfert protocols to work, which could not be possible with the KB11.

However, this driver doesn't work with my KB11 (Keyboard not reconize as a Hotsync connection, but nothing append when I tap on it)

[OcellNuri]

Yea.. I know with the Belkin it was a software problem with trapping the hotsync signal in OS5. Sony actually told Albert that there was no hardware issue.

So.. I'm more confused than I was when I started.

[SW Geek]

These two KBs are designed by different companies and are not interchangeable. the only commonality are the fact that they both connect to the same PDA.

Since the Belkin works unmodified on the NX, we just know that it was designed with a pull-up on the data line (clearly there are some advantages to not believing HW specs <grin>).

[stevejohnson460]

I'm using the Belkin keyboard with the driver OcellNuri mentioned, above. It is beta, with a couple of bugs: most notably you must disable the driver in order to hotsync.

But it DOES work! I've tried it with the standard 4 Palm apps, and Documents to Go. It's a bit slow, but not bad.

[Pen-Pen]

I really have no luck with my KB11.

I have no idea where can be this damnit data line, and if even I found it, I didn't know what I need for the pull-up (I think it's the english name for an electronical component, but I wasn't able to retreive it's french name)

So if someone had some information....

Update :

SW Geek has sent to me the informations concerning the modification, but my mailbox failed to receive his mail (When I say that I have no luck with this keyboard ;) )

[n2ifp]

As I said before, it would have been nice if Sony would help us, but they don't. I haven't seen anything where it actually said that the problem was a pull-up resistor, only what some others had mentioned. It could be the removal, addition, plus, minus, or the grounding of a resistor.

[Albert Hon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by n2ifp
As I said before, it would have been nice if Sony would help us, but they don't. I haven't seen anything where it actually said that the problem was a pull-up resistor, only what some others had mentioned. It could be the removal, addition, plus, minus, or the grounding of a resistor. [/QUOTE

I had did a research on the Sony keyboard , and finally I know why theirs can't work on the NX, but I can't tell you the cause in this web, since we are the partner of Belkin, and our keyboard plays a competitor against Thinkoutside's.... I have no reason to help my competitor

But please don't change the 22K ohm resistor on your keyboard, it's not the root cause...and Pull-up resistor is not either...

If you need a keyboard for NX, you can try the Belkin one, but we only have a beta driver at current time, we will keep updating it in short time.

[Pen-Pen]

Originally posted by Albert Hon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by n2ifp
As I said before, it would have been nice if Sony would help us, but they don't. I haven't seen anything where it actually said that the problem was a pull-up resistor, only what some others had mentioned. It could be the removal, addition, plus, minus, or the grounding of a resistor. [/QUOTE

I had did a research on the Sony keyboard , and finally I know why theirs can't work on the NX, but I can't tell you the cause in this web, since we are the partner of Belkin, and our keyboard plays a competitor against Thinkoutside's.... I have no reason to help my competitor

But please don't change the 22K ohm resistor on your keyboard, it's not the root cause...and Pull-up resistor is not either...

If you need a keyboard for NX, you can try the Belkin one, but we only have a beta driver at current time, we will keep updating it in short time.

I've done this researsh myself, and with some friends, we've found the solution. I can tell you that my modified KB11 work with my NX70 with the tungsten Beta driver. I had to find some smaller components that the one I use.

In a few days, I will post a walkthrough with pictures for thoses who want to use their KB11 with the NX70

[ShellyBelly]

Originally posted by Pen-Pen


I've done this researsh myself, and with some friends, we've found the solution. I can tell you that my modified KB11 work with my NX70 with the tungsten Beta driver. I had to find some smaller components that the one I use.

In a few days, I will post a walkthrough with pictures for thoses who want to use their KB11 with the NX70


DEFINATELY!!!

I do NOT want to buy ANOTHER keyboard!

Thanks a ton:)

[Pen-Pen]

I have some bad news (for me)

My cat just have the bad idea to jump on my table when I was welding the components on the keyboard. the keyboard fell and a resistor clung to my sweater, so two pins of the keyboard wasn't connected anymore, the keyboard is almost dead (I'll try to repair it with a very very small soldering iron, but I don't thinks that could work, RIP my lovely KB11)

But I will give to you the modification to do in a new thread.

[Albert Hon]

Originally posted by Pen-Pen


I've done this researsh myself, and with some friends, we've found the solution. I can tell you that my modified KB11 work with my NX70 with the tungsten Beta driver. I had to find some smaller components that the one I use.

In a few days, I will post a walkthrough with pictures for thoses who want to use their KB11 with the NX70

Hi Pen,

Maybe the Pull-Up resisotr could work on the KB11 , hope you could let me know how you rework the keyboard....but don't change the 22K ohm resistor...it's not the root cause, it's just a "ID" resistor for NX device. (in Belkin keyboard, we only try to find way to make our keyboard work on the NX....but we don't have a pull-up resisotr originally, and basically, all the keyboard works under the same thoery, and pin assignments are almost the same..., a little different in protocol...but protocol is not the main issue)

Thank you for your efforts in helping others, I am sorry I can't play to role for KB11....(just want to keep my job..hah)





;)

[n2ifp]

Well, I understand not to change the 22k resistor, but if it's used for NX ID, maybe it needs to be added.

I don't have either keyboard.

Life has gotten too complex anymore...

[MarkS]

Hi,

FWIW, here's an excerpt from the email I received the other day from Pocketop.....

>For the next several months, the Pocketop >keybaord is not going to work with the Palm 5 >OS. Probably in the fall.

> We must wait for Palm to revise their >operating system, currently slated for Palm OS >6, before we will be compatible. We do not >have an ETA for any Pocketop drivers on this >platform.

SO looks like we need to be patient.... ;-)

Mark

[dr-ivan]

It has been quite sometime since anyone has posted a message on this thread.

Has anyone been successful yet with their keyboard mods?

Is everyone simply waiting for either Belkin or Fellowes to get the job done?

--Ivan

[Albert Hon]

Originally posted by dr-ivan
It has been quite sometime since anyone has posted a message on this thread.

Has anyone been successful yet with their keyboard mods?

Is everyone simply waiting for either Belkin or Fellowes to get the job done?

--Ivan

Belkin has get job done, please contact Belkin to get formal driver (beta 2), or the beta tester of Belkin keyboard could help to distribute it.

[Pen-Pen]

Or you can look at the page below where I explain how to modify a Sony KB-11 to work with the NX-60/70

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5580