I took the plunge and purchased a Pocket PC

[RD100]

After debating for months, I finally went out and bought a Pocket PC 2002 based PDA (a Toshiba E335) ... just to see if I'd like using Windows better than Palm.

I put my new Toshiba through lots of tests, and experimented with many different PPC freeware programs... and I have come to the conclusion ... 

Palm is WAYYYY better than  PPC !!!!

While my PPC has a few nice features like ..


Ability to play MP3s (with terrific sound)
Large, beautiful Color Screen
Built in Voice Recorder
Built in speaker


The main problems I found with the PPC were ...


Manipulating through the Windows PPC system is way more complicated than Palm. Using Windows may be good for a desktop PC, but not for a PDA. Palm lets you do everything much easier and more quickly !
Most of the better freeware PPC programs I tried take up at least 1 meg or more of memory, so you use up your built-in 64 meg of ram real fast.
There are many, many, many more programs available for Palm than PPC
Even though my PPC is 300Mhz, it still takes longer to do stuff on it than my 33Mhz Clie S360.
The PPC's Active-Sync program is always running ... so every time I put my PPC in the cradle, it attempts to do a full Sync. I really hate this!!! And it is especially a ***** when it syncs AvantGo, which alone takes around 2 minutes !! The PPC also requires a soft-reset after installing many PPC programs which is a part of the normal PPC install procedure, and as soon as I put the PPC back in the cradle, it begins to do a full Active-Sync again. And again I have to let AvantGo resync ... Sheesh !!!
After owning my PPC only 2 days I had to Hard Reset , and I lost everything I had entered into my PPC up until now !!! :(


Even though I bought this PPC at a fantastic price ($120), I think I'll stick with Palm going forward.

Microsoft has a long way to go before it will have an OS which is truly worth using in a PDA. 

[Sensei]

I'm not defending Pocket PC or anything, but perhaps the latest version of Pocket PC will give you more features. I've been browsing through some PPC sites and they have the ability to stream "limited" video. Plus MSN and those great internet features sounds fun to me.

As for the problems, that is where Palm OS regains its position. I own a NX70v and I would love it if I could stream video via WiFi card. Simple .wmv files would do, I have lots of links to video that I find entertaining. And for a Portable device to be capable of that, I would purchase one without hesitation.

Those features that provoked you seems to be the same features on my NX70v. I could imagine the entertaining features of the Audio Player on a PPC; contrasting that to the one my NX70v came with, the lack of features, I would definitly say PPC has the higher card here.
The beautiful screen you thought the Toshiba were stunning for a PDA, the NX70v exceeds those expectations. 320 x 480 screen; 65,000 colors.
My NX70v has a voice recorder and speaker too. I cease to see the difference here.

I'm guessing your previous Palm OS PDA was an older model and purchasing this new PDA made you believe that Palm OS "sucks".

[s_n_m]

Originally posted by Sensei
I've been browsing through some PPC sites and they have the ability to stream "limited" video.

We can stream since the last version of Kinoma! :D

I love how fast this gap is closing.

[yr3698]

Windows 2002 is comparable to Palm OS4!!! You need Windows Mobile 2003 to make a comparision with the Nx70 (Palm OS5). It is well known that Windows 2k2 has many problems and limitations, as did Palm OS4.

[mike p]

hmm, soon were gunna have windows an ppc in one os

LINUX MAYBE?

[importluva]

Originally posted by RD100
After debating for months, I finally went out and bought a Pocket PC 2002 based PDA (a Toshiba E335) ... just to see if I'd like using Windows better than Palm.

I put my new Toshiba through lots of tests, and experimented with many different PPC freeware programs... and I have come to the conclusion ... 

Palm is WAYYYY better than  PPC !!!!

While my PPC has a few nice features like ..


Ability to play MP3s (with terrific sound)
Large, beautiful Color Screen
Built in Voice Recorder
Built in speaker


The main problems I found with the PPC were ...


Manipulating through the Windows PPC system is way more complicated than Palm. Using Windows may be good for a desktop PC, but not for a PDA. Palm lets you do everything much easier and more quickly !
Most of the better freeware PPC programs I tried take up at least 1 meg or more of memory, so you use up your built-in 64 meg of ram real fast.
There are many, many, many more programs available for Palm than PPC
Even though my PPC is 300Mhz, it still takes longer to do stuff on it than my 33Mhz Clie S360.
The PPC's Active-Sync program is always running ... so every time I put my PPC in the cradle, it attempts to do a full Sync. I really hate this!!! And it is especially a ***** when it syncs AvantGo, which alone takes around 2 minutes !! The PPC also requires a soft-reset after installing many PPC programs which is a part of the normal PPC install procedure, and as soon as I put the PPC back in the cradle, it begins to do a full Active-Sync again. And again I have to let AvantGo resync ... Sheesh !!!
After owning my PPC only 2 days I had to Hard Reset , and I lost everything I had entered into my PPC up until now !!! :(


Even though I bought this PPC at a fantastic price ($120), I think I'll stick with Palm going forward.

Microsoft has a long way to go before it will have an OS which is truly worth using in a PDA. 

Although it is quite true that an experienced palm user would find a PPC difficult to use, the opposite is quite true. The two OSes work completely differently making for quite a learning curve.

Most programs do not take up 1 meg. For example-
ewallet: 573kb
Pocket Informant: 438kb
Mapopolis: 328kb


And those are the bigger ones. The only ones that seem to take up more than 1mb are acrobat reader and AIM. Also some games, but that is expected. However, the main difference is that most programs will run perfectly from a flash card.


Yea there are more programs for palm, plain and simple.


Palms are going to be snappier but only becuase the os doesn't allow for multitasking (ie there are only a few processes going on at once, whereas PPC can have up to 32 processes running at once). I would rather have the ability to multitask than not, even at the cost of a little bit of speed.


You can get AS to sync when you tell it to under options.

BTW, a toshiba is probably the worst example of a PPC out rightnow. Very poor quality. An Ipaq might drastically change your mind.

[Kbranch]

Originally posted by mike p
LINUX MAYBE?

Hell yeah, my Zaurus C700 beats the crap out of any Palm, Clie or PPC I've ever owned.

[Unregistered]

in all fairness, that's bascially a lower end ppc (e335). kind of like someone rating the tj series against ipaq series.

or, some just don't like certain platforms.

i mean, right now there are at least 3 active threads:

ux50 is a lemon
which clie model do you hate the most
how many people actually bought the ux


the point being, you can't please everyone. it's like trying to win the mac vs pc argument. there are plus and minus to both, but one thing is certain -- once you get used to a certain platform, it is hard to change.

[iboar]

Originally posted by Kbranch


Hell yeah, my Zaurus C700 beats the crap out of any Palm, Clie or PPC I've ever owned.

Are there many programs available for it?

[Kbranch]

Originally posted by iboar


Are there many programs available for it?

There aren't nearly as many as for Palm or PPC, but I've found all the ones I would want so far. It's definitely not for non-geeks, but I sure love it.

[iboar]

Actually, though I'm a Palm OS fan, I'm very glad that PPC is also available. Without competition, there wouldn't be much improvement for either platform. With competition, we are seeing both platforms become increasingly useful.

I only hope that the Palm OS doesn't become too bloated too soon. I think PPC out grew the technology by adding too many bells and whistles before the hardware could support them with sufficient processor speed and RAM. Currently we are looking at high-end handhelds (on both platforms) that top out at about 400mhz with 64 mb RAM. That's roughly five years behind the PC technology. So I'm afraid that trying to make Palms and PPCs that do what the current desktops are capable of doing will only leave us disappointed.

In other words, I hope the industry will concentrate on improving the hardware way beyond its current state before trying to add too much to the OSs.

[iboar]

Originally posted by Kbranch


There aren't nearly as many as for Palm or PPC, but I've found all the ones I would want so far. It's definitely not for non-geeks, but I sure love it.

I had a Sharp Zaurus back in the days when Psions reigned. But back then they ran a proprietary OS. :( The clamshell design was great for its day, though.

In that era, HP came out with what may have been one of the ultimate handhelds for that time. I can't remember the model numbers, I think perhaps LX200(?). But these clamshell handhelds had a fairly large keyboard, large screen, and ran DOS. I drooled over them, but could never get the money up to buy one. :( They were a geeks dream, especially since they could run many of the DOS programs available for desktop PCs! Plus it was easy to program in DOS and create your own applications.

[alsa]

Originally posted by Unregistered
in all fairness, that's bascially a lower end ppc (e335). kind of like someone rating the tj series against ipaq series.

or, some just don't like certain platforms.

i mean, right now there are at least 3 active threads:

ux50 is a lemon
which clie model do you hate the most
how many people actually bought the ux


the point being, you can't please everyone. it's like trying to win the mac vs pc argument. there are plus and minus to both, but one thing is certain -- once you get used to a certain platform, it is hard to change.


are you suggesting comparing the Ipaq with the UX or something? the OS on TJ and UX is essentially the same

[importluva]

Originally posted by alsa



are you suggesting comparing the Ipaq with the UX or something? the OS on TJ and UX is essentially the same
But which ipaq? There are a ton of ipaqs as well...

[sebring]

I also recently bought a PPC. Mine is an Ipaq h2215. It still has a long way to go before it will displace my Sony NR, but it does have it's strengths. As someone mentioned above, there is a solution to the constant syncing. You can set Activesync to sync manually. I also was getting very annoyed with Avantgo syncing everytime I put the Ipaq in the cradle for a little battery juice ( something I have to do often because battery life sucks). I'm still annoyed by it dialing the internet every time I put it in the cradle.

I agree there is very little software, compared to Palm, particularly quality freeware.

Ipaq strengths:(relative to my NR)
Two card slots that support both IO and memory.
Variety of memory options that are cheaper than MS.
Support for memory cards greater than 128mb.
Variety of connectivity options without giving up all my external memory.
Apps run directly from memory card.
Loud built in speaker.
Builtin Bluetooth
Size and weight
User replacable battery.
Can use stylus to perform soft reset.

NR strengths: (relative to h2215):
Battery life.
Performance (yes even though the ipaq has a 400mhz processor vs the 66mhz processor in the Clie)
More polished OS (Windows Mobile 2003 has a bug that requires a third party patch to fix (notification que bug)) Windows annoyingly doesn't close apps when you are done with them, it only minimizes them (another third party app required to change this behavior).
Screen resolution (pictures look much better on the Clie)
Camera.
Jog Dial (much easier to use Clie stylus free and one-handed)
Headphones and remote.
Selection of apps available.(not all windows apps run on all windows devices. Most apps have several versions depending on the processor and version of windows you have)
Stability of OS. (Almost all my crashes and freezes on the Clie have been related to beta testing. I've done no beta testing on the Ipaq, but still have freezes requiring soft resets.)

[BillsClie]

Many moons ago when I was dipping my toe into PDA's I did a lot of research, asked alot of people about Palm OS vs. WinCE (then). There zealots in both camps - supposedly one of the most convincing arguments (from the WinCE camp) was that their PDA's had so much more RAM than Palm OS's ... they MUST be better.
What everyone (even the PALM OS'ers) neglected to mention was the simple elegance of the Palm OS precludes the need for as much memory. I went Palm OS and never looked back -
1) it seems more intuitive to me (granted, I'm used to it)
2) it's quick - very quick
3) there is WAY more (good) freeware available for Palm
4) the form factor is small like I like (615)
5) I can do everything I need with the programs on my Clie ... including syncing with Outlook, Word & Excel documents, pdf's, etc., etc.
Next PDA will (most likely) be Palm OS as well!

[rhinoman]

Let me preface this by saying that my current pda is an NX80V. It is a great handheld. However, I have owned two ipaqs over the last 3 years. Both of them were excellent machines. I disagree on the statement that they are inherently more complicated. Some aspects of both operating systems are esoteric. It's a pain in the arse trying to get movies with sound on my clie. The ipaq was much simpler to download and watch a movie with windows media player. Music was easier to download and listen to on my ipaq than my nx, although I use my nx for that on a daily basis. Also, I rarely had a problem with active sync. It was faster than hotsyncing. PPCs run most programs off of external memory as if they are from internal memory. Storage was much cheaper, too. I had a 2gb hard drive cf card that cost me 79$. It worked very well.

The reasons I like my nx are the screen resolution (ppc has surpassed that already), the integrated keyboard, the availability of palm apps, Docs to Go for spreadsheets, zlauncher, and the camera. Also, I feel that sony makes very good pdas.

I plan on keeping my nx for a long time, but I will probably also get another ppc. The point is, they are not mutually exclusive. One doesn't have to like one and dislike the other. There is room for both, and maybe others like linux based ones.

rhinoman

[Spiral]

I found battery life (from when NR was new) to be about the same, but I'm not using the 2215, mine has 400 mah more power. After a year of heavy use, my NR probably can get 3-4 hours of mp3 with hold switch on, pretty sad.
Performance, PPC beat out the NR, no questions. Have you ever tried GNUboy versus Phoenix (GB emulation)? Or loading 1 megapixel+ pictures. In everyday PIM, it's about the same (it did take me a bit longer to figure out PPC PIM tho, for a while I used my NR for PIM, but once I got used got used to it, it works great)
The NR did have a really nice screen, which was good for photos, but again, slow large picture loading.
The bug is a bit annoying, but i updated the rom and alarms work (but I don't use alarms much on PDAs, so it wasn't a big problem)
The remote is nice (i don't use stock headphones), but it's mostly useless because it only plays 3-4 hours.
At first i missed the jog dial, but i'll take a d-pad over a jog dial anyday (both is even better)
I always do beta tests and both OS's crash plenty, my NR does more hard resets though (soft reset hangs)

"3) there is WAY more (good) freeware available for Palm"
I'd say there is way more freeware availible on Palm. But the freeware on PPC is more powerful, many free audio players, free video players, free emulators.

I don't think form factor is a very good comparison, there are very small, thin palms (T-series), and very large ones (NZ90, nx80). There are small, thin ppc's (1900 ipaq series) and large ones (ipaq 5550, Axim X5)

Next PDA's OS will depend on what OS6 offers versus windows mobile 2004.

[RD100]

Originally posted by Sensei

I'm guessing your previous Palm OS PDA was an older model and purchasing this new PDA made you believe that Palm OS "sucks".

I currently use a 2 year old Sony Clie S360 (16 shade greyscale) with Palm 4.0. I never said Palm sucks. I happen to love using my S360. It is extremely easy to use, and I have around 100 or more games, apps, utilities, hacks, etc loaded into my tiny 16 meg of memory. Right now, I am just experimenting with newer PDAs to see what to step up to next. The Toshiba E335 was a great PDA for the money ($120)... but I still think my S360 is much easier to use ... so I think I'll stick with Palm PDAs.

Originally posted by yr3698
Windows 2002 is comparable to Palm OS4!!! You need Windows Mobile 2003 to make a comparision with the Nx70 (Palm OS5). It is well known that Windows 2k2 has many problems and limitations, as did Palm OS4.

I don't think Microsoft would have improved the ease of use of PPC much in one year. Maybe 2003 has a few nicer features, and it may be more stable .. but you are still dealing with using Windows on a PDA (ugggg!!!) 

 Originally posted by importluva


Although it is quite true that an experienced palm user would find a PPC difficult to use, the opposite is quite true. The two OSes work completely differently making for quite a learning curve.

Most programs do not take up 1 meg. For example-
ewallet: 573kb
Pocket Informant: 438kb
Mapopolis: 328kb


And those are the bigger ones. The only ones that seem to take up more than 1mb are acrobat reader and AIM. Also some games, but that is expected. However, the main difference is that most programs will run perfectly from a flash card.


Yea there are more programs for palm, plain and simple.


Palms are going to be snappier but only becuase the os doesn't allow for multitasking (ie there are only a few processes going on at once, whereas PPC can have up to 32 processes running at once). I would rather have the ability to multitask than not, even at the cost of a little bit of speed.


You can get AS to sync when you tell it to under options.

BTW, a toshiba is probably the worst example of a PPC out rightnow. Very poor quality. An Ipaq might drastically change your mind.

Yes .. it may be just a learning curve I need to get over ... but I would rather have a "very easy to use" PDA  (ie. any Palm) rather than one which requires a lot of effort to perform simple tasks (ie. PPC).

Thanks for the info about the "manual" Active Sync. I was hoping there was a way to turn it off.

As for multi-tasking ... I think since PDA's are in general going to be slower devices because of current hardware technology ... I would rather have a PDA which runs just one program at a maximum speed, rather than having other programs running in the background at the same time, and taking away CPU time from the program you are focused on at the moment. But that is just my own personal preference for the way I use PDAs. I also hate the extra effort of having to manually shut down PPC apps because they continue running when I change to a different app. To me .. that is just a waste of time.

 

[Sensei]

Originally posted by RD100


I currently use a 2 year old Sony Clie S360 (16 shade greyscale) with Palm 4.0. I never said Palm sucks. I happen to love using my S360. It is extremely easy to use, and I have around 100 or more games, apps, utilities, hacks, etc loaded into my tiny 16 meg of memory. Right now, I am just experimenting with newer PDAs to see what to step up to next. The Toshiba E335 was a great PDA for the money ($120)... but I still think my S360 is much easier to use ... so I think I'll stick with Palm PDAs.



I'm sorry, I wasn't too distinct with that line. I was referring to the features you thought that were neat on the Toshiba PPC. I assumed you were making a comparison between your old PDA that lacks the features of today's newer Palms, to your new Toshiba PPC. Just a little confusion...I specifically put sucks in quotation; I wasn't implying you said Palm OS suck, but you might of thought it sucks when you found out the better features on the Toshiba. Anyways....enough of that. lol



Originally posted by s_n_m


We can stream since the last version of Kinoma! :D

I love how fast this gap is closing.

I've tried Kinoma's new player. It doesn't "stream" it the way I meant it. It downloads it to the memory card and plays it from there, progressively. I was hoping it would play it directly from the internet as if I had no memory on the Clie.

[Spiral]

I wouldn't call the streaming to PPC that limited, I watched return of the king trailer at about 25 fps, encoded at mpeg-1, ~400 kb/s.

[yr3698]

Originally posted by RD100


I currently use a 2 year old Sony Clie S360 (16 shade greyscale) with Palm 4.0. I never said Palm sucks. I happen to love using my S360. It is extremely easy to use, and I have around 100 or more games, apps, utilities, hacks, etc loaded into my tiny 16 meg of memory. Right now, I am just experimenting with newer PDAs to see what to step up to next. The Toshiba E335 was a great PDA for the money ($120)... but I still think my S360 is much easier to use ... so I think I'll stick with Palm PDAs.



I don't think Microsoft would have improved the ease of use of PPC much in one year. Maybe 2003 has a few nicer features, and it may be more stable .. but you are still dealing with using Windows on a PDA (ugggg!!!) 

 

Yes .. it may be just a learning curve I need to get over ... but I would rather have a "very easy to use" PDA  (ie. any Palm) rather than one which requires a lot of effort to perform simple tasks (ie. PPC).

Thanks for the info about the "manual" Active Sync. I was hoping there was a way to turn it off.

As for multi-tasking ... I think since PDA's are in general going to be slower devices because of current hardware technology ... I would rather have a PDA which runs just one program at a maximum speed, rather than having other programs running in the background at the same time, and taking away CPU time from the program you are focused on at the moment. But that is just my own personal preference for the way I use PDAs. I also hate the extra effort of having to manually shut down PPC apps because they continue running when I change to a different app. To me .. that is just a waste of time.

 

If you never had a need for multitasking, then you have no need for PPC. Palm is best for you, atleast until we see POS6.

You seem to have other problems with Windows, so i cant help you there.

[Kbranch]

Originally posted by rhinoman
I had a 2gb hard drive cf card that cost me 79$. It worked very well.

This is a bit OT, but where did you manage to find a $79 2 gig microdrive? The cheapest I can find them for is more like $179.

[Unregistered]

quote- KBranch :

"This is a bit OT, but where did you manage to find a $79 2 gig microdrive? The cheapest I can find them for is more like $179."

I got it on ebay awhile ago. Keep watching ebay over the next few days, I'll bet you can find a good deal. Good luck

rhinoman

[ClieKun]

intersting views here...........

[sensei]

Originally posted by Spiral
I wouldn't call the streaming to PPC that limited, I watched return of the king trailer at about 25 fps, encoded at mpeg-1, ~400 kb/s.

I meant limited to the file type. I remember reading that video streams to a PPC does not support all video encodement. I might be wrong because I think I read that a while ago. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[ClieKun]

depending on the system ands its makeup. PPC is basically a PC right? faster and more able to stream ok, but still PPC is not all the great compared to palm os. narrow mined views always on any subject is worthless.

[NJL!2016]

Another thing I like about PPC is that you can store any type of file in the main RAM, like mp3s, windows media movies, etc. This feature will be added in PalmOS 6, so I'm waiting

[Importluva]

Originally posted by RD100


I currently use a 2 year old Sony Clie S360 (16 shade greyscale) with Palm 4.0. I never said Palm sucks. I happen to love using my S360. It is extremely easy to use, and I have around 100 or more games, apps, utilities, hacks, etc loaded into my tiny 16 meg of memory. Right now, I am just experimenting with newer PDAs to see what to step up to next. The Toshiba E335 was a great PDA for the money ($120)... but I still think my S360 is much easier to use ... so I think I'll stick with Palm PDAs.



I don't think Microsoft would have improved the ease of use of PPC much in one year. Maybe 2003 has a few nicer features, and it may be more stable .. but you are still dealing with using Windows on a PDA (ugggg!!!) 

 

Yes .. it may be just a learning curve I need to get over ... but I would rather have a "very easy to use" PDA  (ie. any Palm) rather than one which requires a lot of effort to perform simple tasks (ie. PPC).

Thanks for the info about the "manual" Active Sync. I was hoping there was a way to turn it off.

As for multi-tasking ... I think since PDA's are in general going to be slower devices because of current hardware technology ... I would rather have a PDA which runs just one program at a maximum speed, rather than having other programs running in the background at the same time, and taking away CPU time from the program you are focused on at the moment. But that is just my own personal preference for the way I use PDAs. I also hate the extra effort of having to manually shut down PPC apps because they continue running when I change to a different app. To me .. that is just a waste of time.

 

You can get lots of freeware apps that close down programs using the X....

Otherwise, multitasking is a great thing to have. All of the PPC bashers say the same thing-I only WANT 1 program running at one time anyways, so multitasking isn't an advantage...blah blah. Ok right.

[Sensei]

Originally posted by ClieKun
depending on the system ands its makeup. PPC is basically a PC right? faster and more able to stream ok, but still PPC is not all the great compared to palm os. narrow mined views always on any subject is worthless.

PPC is not a PC; it is a protable device using PocketPC OS. It doesn't have all the functions of a PC yet.

[ClieKun]

Originally posted by Sensei


PPC is not a PC; it is a protable device using PocketPC OS. It doesn't have all the functions of a PC yet.
hum ok..........basically it is right? I keep forgetting If people don`t totally refine questens its taken as a complet wrong statement. Ok then it does not have any elements PC ok! ok there I have said the opposite! happy.

[sebring]

Originally posted by Importluva


You can get lots of freeware apps that close down programs using the X....

Otherwise, multitasking is a great thing to have. All of the PPC bashers say the same thing-I only WANT 1 program running at one time anyways, so multitasking isn't an advantage...blah blah. Ok right.

How about a few examples of when you will multitask on your PDA, other than playing music while you do something else. With DAs and Hacks, I am able to do about all the multitasking I can imagine doing on my NR. I can look up a phone number without exiting an app, or do a quick calculation etc.

There are things I like about my Ipaq, but apps staying open causing slowdowns, freezes and crashes isn't one of them. The first third party app I installed on my Ipaq was one of those freeware apps for closing programs instead of minimizing them. It was causing me enough grief I was about ready to return it until I discovered that little app. It's still the best addition I've made to the Ipaq.