Good bye everyone

[Unregistered]

I have received news from my japanese friend who has a wife that works as a sale rep. for sony and she told him of a new model called the NX70vx. acording to my japanese "pinpal" this new model looks just like the nx70v except a tad thicker because it inclueds a built in 5gb hard drive and has blue tooth, he said his wife saw a memo from a developer and than saw a presentation of the real thing as it was shown to the clie project leader, the hard drive stores mpeg4 video and audio the body of the unit is said to have DSP stamped on it right below the palm logo. The person show the unit said the dsp chip set within the unit helped the 300,000 pixel camera record at 30fps and play back at 320x240 screen size. The person then pluged it into the new a/v cradle (she says it looks kind of like the new one for the nz90) while in the cradle he then started to record from the t.v. like a tivo and then past around the unit so everyone could see the smooth play back. He also played music from the unit on new software called cile jukebox and he imported music and video, both from the t.v. and the new camera which was then watched and listened to on standerd clies he also told of bluetooth station for wireless sync and importing of video and audio when the station is pluged into these sources he sent me an email with pics of the memo which show the specs. design and measurements but my computer failed to open the attachments and he then sent me a fax but no image was present but the words were there (in japanese, which i speak) i'll try to send proof in i get better pics his wife said is was all smooth

[jmg_NX21]

If only the camera had a HIGHER resolution...

WOW!!!

Thanks for the HEADS up... so in how many months???

[ehartung]

I think it's BS. But that just me...

Or they came from the future on a Delorean... from like ... 3 years from now...
ohh.. 3 years they will have PDA BRAIN IMPLANTS>...
hehe
Forgot about that.. no need for cameras.. u use ur eyes...

and store it in ur memory....

[birick]

5gb hard drive = no battery life. Unless, of course, you have a really big battery.

[ehartung]

well as I was saying, it's linked into u heart.. so it's "LIFETIME" battery..

[cbulock]

Kinda suspicus that the author is unregistred, but if this is true, I might need to upgrade. That unit just sounds too nice. It almost sounds too good to be true, but I remember like a week before the NZ was announced there were some people here talking about what they would like to see in the futures Clies, someone said '2MP camera' and they were basicly laughed at since Sony hadn't even done a 1/2MP camera yet. So, I am expecting to be amazed again by the next version of the NX and I think a machine like this would do it.

[fireants22]

i be dammed...
This is seriously gonna cause me more sleepness nites....between having to decide between the NX or NZ, now this...jeez.:o

BUT realistically speaking...as a size reference.
The iPod that i have already uses the thinnest possible notebook hard-drive (1/8"toshiba drive). And as it stands, it stacks up to pretty much the same thickness as the new NZ.
Therefore, I highly doubt that the new NX-whatever will be thinner than the NZ (non-brick):rolleyes:

[jmg_NX21]

BY this time... replaceable batteries no?

If this is false, oh well...

[cbulock]

Yea, if this is false, no big deal. But if it's true... :D :D :D

[omgitsroy326]

doubt that it's tru...

[alfa12]

Originally posted by fireants22
i be dammed...
This is seriously gonna cause me more sleepness nites....between having to decide between the NX or NZ, now this...jeez.:o

BUT realistically speaking...as a size reference.
The iPod that i have already uses the thinnest possible notebook hard-drive (1/8"toshiba drive). And as it stands, it stacks up to pretty much the same thickness as the new NZ.
Therefore, I highly doubt that the new NX-whatever will be thinner than the NZ (non-brick):rolleyes:


...AND the iPod has up to 8-10 hours battery life!!! So why should´nt that be possible in a Clie?? The iPod is nice and small, throw in an colour screen, and we are on the way...

[starstreak]

You can't be serious? It ain't gonna get the same battery life as a ipod. 200Mhz processor, a COLOR screen about 3 times bigger? The ipod screen draws littel power and as far as the harddrive goes, it spins up only enough to load the song, then shuts down while it plays in the memory.

[cbulock]

There are a number of people that use Mircodrives in PPC's and while it hurts the battery life somewhat, I don't think that it's enough to ruin the unit. I do think this will be the size of the NZ, but at least I would feel that the size would be worth it.

[starstreak]

This isn't a micro drive. Its a laptop harddrive. big difference in speed and power draw.

[cbulock]

Originally posted by starstreak
This isn't a micro drive. Its a laptop harddrive. big difference in speed and power draw.

I didn't realize they had released that info yet. All I have seen so far about this unit is the first post of this thread.

[starstreak]

Oh nono. I was refering to alfa's post:

BUT realistically speaking...as a size reference.
The iPod that i have already uses the thinnest possible notebook hard-drive (1/8"toshiba drive). And as it stands, it stacks up to pretty much the same thickness as the new NZ.
Therefore, I highly doubt that the new NX-whatever will be thinner than the NZ (non-brick)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...AND the iPod has up to 8-10 hours battery life!!! So why should´nt that be possible in a Clie?? The iPod is nice and small, throw in an colour screen, and we are on the way...

[cbulock]

Ok, I see, didn't catch that. But I think there must be a way to get reasonable battery life out of a Clie and still have a built in hard drive.

[fireants22]

what is the largest CF-microdrive? I always thought the max. was 1gig?.

I am trying to figure out how some of the pocket pcs are able to pack 10-12hours into their devices running at 400mhz....while the NX and NZ get only 5hours with the display off, running at 200mhz?:confused:

[LITTLESIX]

Why is it that all these "juicy information" posts come from unregistereds?

"I heard from a friend, who's got a friend, who's next-door-neighbors daughter's brothers' barber......."

:rolleyes:

[fireants22]

..thats cuz these un-retards are just posting to get attention perhaps?

[LITTLESIX]

Originally posted by fireants22
..thats cuz these un-retards are just posting to get attention perhaps?

More like stir crap. At this point, it's nothing more than juicy gossip from an anonymous source. (and totally lacking in credibility.)

[jedix]

I highly doubt this, considering the specs and since we all know the credibility of unregistered posts. (yea right)

[peterh]

someones pants are on file ... and they have a burnt sausage too ...

I expect the NZ will support microdrives one day

[oneeyesquare]

I preordered mine!!!!!!!:D :D :D


I never ceases to amaze me that the purveyors of "new" models are never able to open the picture attachments in their emails. Same scenario on an ATV board I visit. Big awesome news, but Lo&Behold, "I can't get the pics to open...." Must be some new picture format just intro'd by Sony....



Seriously though, the specs as stated don't sound that "pie-in-the-sky" to me. Certainly no bigger a jump between the NX and NZ and NO ONE new about the NZ prior to it's announcement... Be nicer if the camera had more resolution , like 1MP at least... My curiousity is piqued, to say the least.

[Unregistered]

The reason i'm unregistered is because if this information doesn't pan out then i don't what to be responsible and i don't want people asking me questions about this new model because even i don't think it will come out. My japanese friend tell me that his wife says the unit is too small to house a full size notebook harddrive(like the one in the ipod) she says the pda had more of a longer hump from where the cf wifi slot is, so one can asume this means it a matchbook drive and plus the spec sheet had the name of hitachi, who took over ibm's micro drive business the spec also stated two TI processors, 1 for DSP and the other saying low power processor, amybe they mean from the OMAP series. The base units memory is said to be 64mb but not completely open to the user, the displayer if the proto type pda said it works like advance cache memory for the hard drive saving more battery life by not staying power unless a large file is being recorded and or received. His wife said the demo unit was plug into a small AA battery supply like the ones used for sony protable CD players, the units battery for the demo was not user replacable like the nz90. more to come.

[Unregistered]

My friend and his wife are in troble, the office memo has been noticed to be missing though all is wife did was copy is in a copy machine but at sony you have to use a employee id card to get access to the machince so the company can trace it to her and since they have a network conection from her office to their house the sony corp. can legally search her hard drive and emails, they can get into real troble if it is linked to them, but as i stated earlier all she did was make a copy not keep the whole memo, and other details about the pda are: the bluetooth is said by the displayer to not be work yet until they can get it's aprovel from the communation department at sony who get the o.k. from the f.c.c. of japan, also his wife said the man had a kodak 4mp digital camera removed the cf card and put that cf card into the sony pda then tap on a palm app. called format veiwer which showed what the card contained and then selected on a jpeg file which then made that picture appear on screen, he then put it to slideshow and made it veiwable on it's side he then did the same with a sony cam and memory stick.

[geekzilla]

I think this is the weirdest post I've ever read...

:)

[Medcat99]

No, I've read weirder, but this IS the biggest bunch of BS I've ever read. While I do believe that Sony has a new PDA in the works, if not already complete, I don't think this post is credible.

On the other hand, I do remember a post (before they were all deleted), that basically described the NZ a few months after the NR was released. Everyone thought that was BS too, but here we are. Also from an unregistered user. Lucky guess?

[jedix]

Why do unregistered users always start these unbelievable things, but don't come back to defend themselves? It's just a waste of time.

[cjones]

I dunno... I think it's just to dorky of a post to even warrant replying to. Wait - I just replied! Darn!

-chris

[Jun]

Originally posted by Unregistered
I have received news from my japanese friend who has a wife that works as a sale rep. for sony and she told him of a new model called the NX70vx. acording to my japanese "pinpal" this new model looks just like the nx70v except a tad thicker because it inclueds a built in 5gb hard drive and has blue tooth, he said his wife saw a memo from a developer and than saw a presentation of the real thing as it was shown to the clie project leader, the hard drive stores mpeg4 video and audio the body of the unit is said to have DSP stamped on it right below the palm logo. The person show the unit said the dsp chip set within the unit helped the 300,000 pixel camera record at 30fps and play back at 320x240 screen size. The person then pluged it into the new a/v cradle (she says it looks kind of like the new one for the nz90) while in the cradle he then started to record from the t.v. like a tivo and then past around the unit so everyone could see the smooth play back. He also played music from the unit on new software called cile jukebox and he imported music and video, both from the t.v. and the new camera which was then watched and listened to on standerd clies he also told of bluetooth station for wireless sync and importing of video and audio when the station is pluged into these sources he sent me an email with pics of the memo which show the specs. design and measurements but my computer failed to open the attachments and he then sent me a fax but no image was present but the words were there (in japanese, which i speak) i'll try to send proof in i get better pics his wife said is was all smooth

Unregistered:

Coincidentally, Intel will be announcing the so called 'wireless Internet on a chip' (aka Manitoba) that integrates flash memory, a digital signal processor (DSP) and an XScale processor core onto a single chip. That is intended for mobile smartphones but can also be used in most PDAs already using the XScale processor.

Manitoba is expected to include a 400MHz DSP, a 400MHz XScale and up to 16MB of flash memory. It will be built on the 0.13-micron chipmaking process. Intel has said in the past that the chip could deliver twice the performance and use half the power of a non-integrated package.

Read more about Manitoba on :

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-932008.html


http://news.com.com/2100-1033-984290.html?tag=fd_top


________________________
Digital signal processing (DSP) refers to various techniques for improving the accuracy and reliability of digital communications.

[jmg_NX21]

:confused:

Needs the attention?

IF unregistered WERE not able to post...

[Phydeaux III]

If someone described the NZ to me six months ago, I would have thought is BS too....

[Unregistered]

Sorry about my last messages i was typing fast and trying not to be last for work this morning so as it stands the specs. for the new unit are:
200mhz processor intel/or TI
5gb mini harddrive
bluetooth
DSP camera (Digital signal processor are used to improve CMOS camera arrays. the processor cleans up the noise and even can be used to incress the frame rate making for a better camera than sony used before on their other models of clies(no DSP)
NEW software:
Format veiwer-for viewing images from other media formats(though i don't think if the model is released, this software will be present, because of the higher size mem. sticks coming out)
Clie Jukebox (harddrive means more storage for music)
Clie Recorder (like tivo, format the incoming video to mpeg4 on the fly to be viewed on the clie along with audio)
Bluetooth network utility (allow wireless conection to a/v and sync ) it will come out later (the base station and software for clie models)
it all looks impressive, but it also looks like something sony is capable of, lets just hope it come out. P.S. sony has a new cyber shot camera called the vx with new mpeg4 abilites

[Jun]

Unregistered:

Seriously, we don't want to ignore the specs you mentioned but if you can provide us a picture or any forms of presentation to support what you are talking about, it will be greatly appreciated.

[eric2002]

so getting back to this new sony device.... a photo would be nice? or some literature on a respectable site?

[macdaddinator]

This is a sham. There is a big reason Sony has not and will not ever put a hard drive in any of their consumer devices in the near future. They are deathly concerned about protecting the IP (intellectual proprerty) of their music and movies. Even with ATRAC-only recording, I highly doubt they would do this. Keiji Kimura, Sony senior VP in charge of consumer electronics, told Wired writer Frank Rose in January when asked if they were considering putting a hard drive in a product ala the Apple iPod (which he admittedly admires): "We do not have any plans for such a product." This is straight from the top brass in Tokyo. To think that the entire company did a 180, including R&D, fab and development, in under 4 weeks is highly doubtful, to say the least. Nice one, though.

Check this article:

The Civil War Inside Sony
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.02/sony.html

[Uninformed]

Respectfully speaking, while I truly appreciate the posts, going unregistered is still a bit strange. No one is going to flame you for being wrong about the ultimate specs of this prototype/wip, unless you are making the entire thing up.

I hope you also appreciate our collective skepticism given the substance of the posts. The board gets these unregistered kinds of posts all the time and most people have gotten tired of them because they do not seem reliable from the get go.

One picture/link, etc. would go a long way to establishing your credibility.

[ccelada]

This i find unbelivable:

Why would sony use a 200 MHz processor, in sucha a device (harddrive, etc)... when there are faster processors out there?... souldn't they try better processors before harddrives?...

[kkerruish]

All -

This is not improbable...since the official specs aren't available (not to mention the whole thing might not be legit given the 'Guest' status...who knows?

The hard drive doesn't have to be analog - they could use the CF type 5gb Microdrives from IBM...an indication of this is that a standard laptop drive (such as those found in portable MP3 players these days) weigh about the same as the clie does...

200mhz is more than sufficient...what would a faster processor allow for? The DSP chip would offload most audio and video functionality...

This would truly be an amazing portable entertainment device...to be able to record a TV show directly to the device and then watch it on a bus or a train on a pocket sized device...great concept...or throw a full movie on it with audio, etc...

Perhaps this is why Sony's not opening the CF slot up?? They are leaving it proprietary for a new flash based hard drive that can slide into it???

Ahhh...the potential...gotta love Sony's concepts if this is real...

[oneeyesquare]

Assuming it's real, for the sake of argument, what would that make the potential product rollout if they're demo-ing it in house now?? 3 mo., 6 mo. 9 mo.??? Just in time to make everyone who bought an NZ feel like they should've waited??? The specs sound really good. The AV functionality would be awesome, who'd need a Tivo?!!!

[ArK]

y would sony put a 5gb hd in a handheld when they can make more money w/ the new ms pros? This would kill their new product. It would also kill their new wirless lan hd device. This is a smart company that likes sticking it to you for every penny. They are not going to give you somthing this great and screw two of their own products.

Further looking at magicgate and the atrac3 encoding they are worried about property tights. They would not give you a portable tivo bc it would hurt sales of dvds and music.

[Unregistered]

As i stated earlier, sony most likely release this unit, it is proably just a demo of what they can do. the pic i my friend spoke of was a diagram of the unit showing the front and the side with lines pointing to the newer features and if sony were to release this model they would not be losing any movie because a dvd is only for dvd players, the mpeg-2 quality is far better than mpeg-4 and the atrac3 music format is not in troble because the clie also plays mp3 flies and plus the harddrive would have no troble holding that more compressed music format of atrac3 and the demo unit is capable of using the new mem. stick pro because as my friends wife decribed it, the mem. stick was a san disk and it was 1gb capacity and the new wifi server by sony wasn't even mentioned at the meeting, besides sony never side the mini server would work any clie model, they just show it working with computers and laptops this new model will do nothing to sony's other products except incress sale in their pda division and make more money for sony. Also i don't think the vice pres. of sony would talk about a new undecided product to the media unless things are finalized and when asked about hard drive devices like the ipod he told the truth, the clie's pda not a music player, just like bill clinton, who told the most direct form of the truth, and im sure it took more four weeks for the R&D, and the rest, in order to a real working unit, the designer don't just stop working when a new model comes out , they start work on the next product in the line, my friend's wife even said the unit was complete and finished, she also said the color is like the others (not the gun metal) i was told of this product on sunday, he tried to send the diagram on monday and i try to post the memo as soon as figure out how to. i still waiting for the diagram but i trust my friend and his wife which is why i haven't mentioned their names all the info i get is in japanese anyway and for now everyone can just call me pinpal. i'll get more news as soon as i talk to my friend again because in japan right now its 9:43 am as i type at work at 4:43 pm.

[Unregistered]

the 64mb is told to be for the 5gb cache, not all of it but as explained to me by my friend, data is held in the 64mb before it is sent to the hard drive but it all happens very fast (his wife said the video data from the t.v. was recorded and played back all in about 5min. so they could see the quality of the 320x240 (better res. then the nx70v and the nz90 at 160x112) the data was recorded as fast as it came through to the t.v. This cache system saves power by not making the hard dive work as hard and to most likely help with the mpeg4 compression on the fly. i bet there is only 15mb just like the other models and what ever is not used for this new type of cache is program space. When you consider a intel P4 chip only has about 128kb of level 1 cache and up to 512kb of level 2 cache than this mb cache of this prototype clie must really help the hd, by grouping large chunks of data and send them down a wide bus to the hard drive to conserve power by not writing strait to the drive instead by giving the hd large amounts of data at once. when to demo unit was pasted around the exteral cd player like battery was removed and when asked the demoer said that the demo unit had rum for 5hrs non stop of play video.

[oneeyesquare]

I think it more likely that Sony wants a piece of the iPod pie (if they produce this device). I think integration is electronics future and this would provide a '"enhanced MP3 player" side of the CLie line, just as the NZ could be the "enhanced camera" side of things..
As for calling this guy a liar, stop it... Be it untrue or not, it makes for good discussion/speculation. That's part of what "discussion" forums are for!!! Don't drive the guy away til YOU have proof...

[jmg_NX21]

How about keeping this ALL IN THE SAME POST???

I have to read all these separate posts???

[Jun]

That's what I was thinking too, jmg_NX21.

Unregistered:

We thank you for your time informing us this "possibility" but we will appreciate if you just POST REPLY to your previous threads!

[Jun]

Moderators:

Please append this thread this:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3469

Thanks! :)

[eric2002]

hmmm, maybe "unregistered" is a Sony engineer and must remain annonymous for copyright/privacy issues?? Maybe he's leaking info. to us ClieSource geeks?? I am still questioning the validity of these statements, however they are intriguing statements. I'd still like some proof to back it all up.

[eric2002]

I love the excitement in the cliesource forum!! I was a VisorCentral junky for a year or so... but it is so depreasing over there now that Handsrping has run itself completely into the ground.

[macdaddinator]

They definitely would love a piece of the iPod action, but check out the Wired article I posted a link to- it's no small matter that Sony has not put a hard drive in -any- device other than a laptop or desktop yet!

I enjoy a good rumour as well as the next guy, but unfortunately I have to doubt this one-

[philgin]

Please give us a proof... and don't even think of creating ur own pics.

[beano]

hey who cares whether it's a sham; the 5gb minidrive is sure nice to think about :)

[beano]

64mb? wow i like i like :)

[Token User]

Originally posted by Unregistered
the 64mb is told to be for the 5gb cache, not all of it but as explained to me by my friend, data is held in the 64mb before it is sent to the hard drive but it all happens very fast (his wife said the video data from the t.v. was recorded and played back all in about 5min. so they could see the quality of the 320x240 (better res. then the nx70v and the nz90 at 160x112) the data was recorded as fast as it came through to the t.v. This cache system saves power by not making the hard dive work as hard and to most likely help with the mpeg4 compression on the fly. i bet there is only 15mb just like the other models and what ever is not used for this new type of cache is program space. When you consider a intel P4 chip only has about 128kb of level 1 cache and up to 512kb of level 2 cache than this mb cache of this prototype clie must really help the hd, by grouping large chunks of data and send them down a wide bus to the hard drive to conserve power by not writing strait to the drive instead by giving the hd large amounts of data at once. when to demo unit was pasted around the exteral cd player like battery was removed and when asked the demoer said that the demo unit had rum for 5hrs non stop of play video. Sorry. You lost me. You have gone from the realm of "possibly maybe kinda sorta" to wild speculation on comparing CPU caching to hard drive architectures and data pipelining. Unrelated concepts. We are now also going from stories that are being relayed via the "wife of a friend" to first person accounts of the device being passed around the conference table. You are losing credability fast.

[jedix]

These postings are not even worth considering. Yea, my wife's cousin's ex-uncle's former roommate's step-son is somebody important at Sony who told me something that is far fetched, but we will all be killed by the Sony mafia if I say any more...HA! Why even bother posting. Keep your "secret" to yourself.

[LITTLESIX]

I don't know that this person making all these threads is or isn't a liar. The facts for me just aren't adding up:

1. The tech piece of this is beyond my comprehension. I don't have the abilities, so I'll leave that to the people that do.
2. Why is this person posting "unregistered"? So that Sony doesn't catch them? Doesn't wash. If the recording industry couldn't get the name of a subscriber off Verizon's ISP, this persons identity won't ever come to light. Hell, you can use any email addy you like when you register here. There's no verfication process.
3. Why is this person sharing this information? Altruism? Providing us reason to hold off buying our NZ's? (trust me - THAT'D never work for me). I could go off on a whole corporate espionage rant here, but I giggle just thinking about it. Again - not working for me.
4. Why all the threads? This tells me that this is somebody who is not a regular poster and they're unfamiliar with how things work here?

We'll never "see" pics of this if they do exist. While Sony doesn't own or run this site, if they did have this model, and a prototype schematic or actual pic did turn up I'm sure they'd place a very well intentioned phone call to the site owner and politely ask that it be removed. Quickly. Reggie has made it clear in another thread that Sony does read this site; they are not allowed to post to it.

Sorry, unregistered. I'd love to believe you but there are too many loose ends. You have to tie them up to get your credibility. I won't do that work for you.

PS to Token User: Still working on the email I owe you ;)

[Token User]

Originally posted by LITTLESIX
PS to Token User: Still working on the email I owe you ;) No worries. Plenty of entertainment in this thread to me me amused for ... hmmm, 98 floorboards across.

BTW - With Unregistered franticly creating new threads, and the mods franticly rejoining them, how on earth are we supposed to keep track of things??

Oh, yeah, just to be on topic, I read a Japanese board that quoted an unnamed source in Sony as stating categorically that the device definately might be announced on 2003/04/01 - maybe.

Looking forward to eating crow when this device IS actually announced :)

[Jun]

Hmm, I have not seen unregistered yet adding more technical information on NX70Vx or NZ90v? :confused: Keep us posted in this thread if possible. :o

[Uninformed]

n/t

[mashoutposse]

Like someone said above, if you told me that the next CLIE would have a 2MP digicam, I wouldn't have believed it. I'll keep an open mind on this one.

Just so some of you guys know, the specs of the T665C and other PDAs were revealed here by an 'Unregistered' usually about two weeks before announcement. He did claim to be the same person, though -- this guy seems to be a new one.

Just to throw in my own personal opinion -- while the NX70vx sounds amazing, it doesn't seem to make sense for Sony. Such a device would kill off the NZ's market.

[Uninformed]

I could see both prods going head to head depending on what you wanted.

Personally speaking, I don't really see the point of the lower quality camera being paired up with an alleged 5 GB hard drive. But there you go.

[Unregistered]

I have told this forum all i know about this japanses demo, i know my friends well and know they would have no reason to lye to me and about the cache details, i stated in the post that, i was gussesing what that much memory (64mb) could be used for,in that cache type im not the designer of the device nor was i in the room in japan during the demo i just told things as i was told by my friends i never created events or stories from the top of my head and i make new threads because i'm not registered and do not know completely how to use this forum, but i do love sony clie pdas, i will still try to post the spec. sheet/memo as soon as i figure out how. Lets all just hope this device comes out, next time i may be a registered user of this site. good bye for now

[PhilB]

Good bye, Unregistered. We hardly knew ye.:confused:

[ArK]

He's not responding anymore. maybe sony found him and silenced him and everyone he knows so as to not let loose anymore info. We should be carefl... Oh my god they found me!

[starstreak]

Oh yes. Thanks for posting a post that you were leaving. I can't believe I read this and posted to it..

[birick]

:confused:

[Macabre Man]

Its never going to be the same without you.

[macdaddinator]

Me too. Doh!

[philgin]

I'm sorry about what I said on the other thread. That's the best thing to do that I know.

Hope to see ur post soon...

[markga]

too many shadows for us to discern the reality of the posible new clie. Some of us like concrete details

[jedix]

So long! If you come back, please register. Then we know who to say good bye to.

[Narniahopper]

Ummm, to what thread are we referring?

[Narniahopper]

Oh.
http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3514