CF memory for NX

[Unregistered]

I can understand the annoyance of many users while reading the postings here. Being able to use Compact Flash especially when a CF slot is there is a nice idea, but it is not going to happen.

I've also seen the arguement by Dr.Jones? (PhD in what) to switch to Handera, not an option in some parts of the world, I've never seen one in the UK. They may be available from specialists but they are not for sale in the high street, unlike Clies. Not only that, I've stayed away from PalmOS devices for a few years because they had not advanced. I don't fancy getting a black and white PDA with old Dragonball processor!

If you want heaps of storage why not just wait a little bit longer and get Memory Stick Pro?

I really do not believe Sony will bring out a CF driver anytime soon, they stand to make money from Memory Stick sales, not by releasing a driver and allowing competitors to sell CF cards to Clie users. Also, being an NX user, we will have a device which can accept Memory Stick Pro with a small patch.

Come on, stop the Sony bashing, we've got the coolest PDA currently available.

[xlr8]

Well, CF cards are a bit cheaper than memory sticks plus they are the most common so peripherals will be available that were either not possible or too expensive with memory sticks.

A 256mb compact flash is $90, a 128mb sony memory stick is $90
A 1gb compact flash card is $300, a 1gb memory stick is going for a whopping $880

I think that is reason enough to want a CF slot. If sony decided to put a CF slot on it then in order to be decent to their customers they should make it a CF slot not a wireless slot

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by xlr8
Well, CF cards are a bit cheaper than memory sticks plus they are the most common so peripherals will be available that were either not possible or too expensive with memory sticks.

A 256mb compact flash is $90, a 128mb sony memory stick is $90
A 1gb compact flash card is $300, a 1gb memory stick is going for a whopping $880

I think that is reason enough to want a CF slot. If sony decided to put a CF slot on it then in order to be decent to their customers they should make it a CF slot not a wireless slot

It's not just a wireless slot, there are modems that work in it too. There is at least one developer that is working on it, but it will take another month or so, if it's truly feasible. I am quite happy with the way it is now. In any case my WiFi card will stay in the CF slot. I agree, a bigger MS would be nice. Once the new MS Pro comes out in stores, the price will drop. I think it was encouraging that the NZ90 has a CF slot too. Sony is not the only one who can write drivers, but I can't be sure it will even work. Everyone is assuming that it is possible. When I had a Visor, it took a long time for a CF module to come out and that was created by a third party, not by Handspring.

[Molerat]

No one is denying the NX is one of the most innovative devices to date. It's just that Sony does not seem to understand the culture of PDAs.

I would liken it to that of the automobile industry. Sure, the vast majority of drivers will buy a stock automobile that suits there needs. And then there is the performance automobile. Slam it, lift it, bore it out, whatever. For these, the power drivers, it is about improving on a fantastic automobile. Would we recogonize the term "great American automobile" if Henry Ford really stuck to "any color we want, so long as its black?" Of course not.

Now apply to the PDA market. What was the number one selling PDA this holiday season? The Palm Zire (see: Palminfocenter). That's right, the average sedan for the average driver. And here we are, with our CLIE convertibles, trying to figure out how to add custom fuel-injectors when we know nothing about the new fuel system Sony is using. Yes, I'm mincing metaphors. But hopefully you follow.

Sony isn't enabling the community. And from Zire to NZ90V, it is the community that has drives the Palm handheld. To return to the analogy -- the automotive company may produce the car, truck, or van, but it is almost always an outside company that produces the performance solutions. So we shouldn't ask Sony to develop our pet projects (read: CF memory drivers). No, we should ask them to release the SDKs and technical datasheets for the CLIE. Then we can develop our own solutions.

It is unfortunate that Sony has chosen propriety over community.

[hansschmucker]

Just a little comment about ho much sense a cf memory driver makes. Well, in Europe there's no point in using Wifi as there are only about a dozen points to use it at. Therefore, I have a clie with a big slot that I cannot use for anything at all. I would be just as happy with sony offering a new shell without cs slot

[lelit]

Sure CF driver is a need!
I even would say so: if that driver provided only ability to store files on CF and copy them to and from MS - that already would be very cool!!! For example, we could store on 512 Mb CF tons of music and pour on MS those we want to listen now, etc.
So, if making full-featured CF driver (that would act as "another MS") is hard or impossible, it is not end of the world! I would be happy even with very partial and basic solutions! :)

[Lizard]

I have to agree with the Unregistered Guest. Sony obviously put in the wireless slot to offer wireless connectivity while using the mem stick. As far as the bluetooth mem stick goes.. jeez.. didn't sony fix that in the NZ90? built in bluetooth. Everyone is so busy bashing sony for giving us the ability to use wireless+ms. We should strive to get CF drivers to add more functionality to our NXs, but we should not blame Sony for using the slot for what they intended it be used for.

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by lelit
Sure CF driver is a need!
I even would say so: if that driver provided only ability to store files on CF and copy them to and from MS - that already would be very cool!!! For example, we could store on 512 Mb CF tons of music and pour on MS those we want to listen now, etc.
So, if making full-featured CF driver (that would act as "another MS") is hard or impossible, it is not end of the world! I would be happy even with very partial and basic solutions! :)

Did you somehow find out about what I wrote to Sony. Because it was almost exactly what you just said

[cbulock]

This is the way I look at it. Sony wanted to give us the chance to add WiFi capibilty to our Clies. They could have went ahead and made some propreitaty (sp?) slot and made a special card that fit into it. Then no one would complain that Sony was ripping us off for not allowing memory cards to be used. But insted they decided to use standard parts which in the end make the Clie cheaper to build and the WiFi cards cheaper also. I guess, in the end we should be happy Sony tried saving us some cash instead of complaning that they won't allow us to use CF memory cards. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have that feature, but we shouldn't allows look at things so negitivly.

[sonycliefan]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
Just a little comment about ho much sense a cf memory driver makes. Well, in Europe there's no point in using Wifi as there are only about a dozen points to use it at. Therefore, I have a clie with a big slot that I cannot use for anything at all. I would be just as happy with sony offering a new shell without cs slot

Now there's an idea! I have no use for wifi. The CF slot only works as a prop-up for my NX (when it is on a table). A new back makes it slimmer... and lighter...

Come to think of it, I have no use for the thumb pad as well. How about a second screen there... We can call it Hires++

[mashoutposse]

What I don't understand is why Sony is getting bashed for things that they have fully disclosed right on the box... with big colorful stickers, no less.

BTW, give WiFi a try -- search for the old WiFi card poll on this board and notice the high satisfaction rating. It's really well done, and there's nothing like sitting in a doctor's office, trying to connect just for the heck of it, and getting a connection :)

[GeekGod]

Originally posted by cbulock
This is the way I look at it. Sony wanted to give us the chance to add WiFi capibilty to our Clies. They could have went ahead and made some propreitaty (sp?) slot and made a special card that fit into it. Then no one would complain that Sony was ripping us off for not allowing memory cards to be used. But insted they decided to use standard parts which in the end make the Clie cheaper to build and the WiFi cards cheaper also. I guess, in the end we should be happy Sony tried saving us some cash instead of complaning that they won't allow us to use CF memory cards. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have that feature, but we shouldn't allows look at things so negitivly.

Actually, the only one who saved money with this fiasco is Sony. Their WiFi card is expensive, and as yet there is little 3rd party support for that slot.

I work very closely with Sony, and have spoken to people at almost all levels about this situation. The response is pretty much the same all over -- CF was used because it was cheaper to _develope_ than a WiFi MS solution. But considering that the WiFi card doesn't sell for much less than the BT MS, it seems this savings has not been passed on to the users.

The CF slot was a REALLY bad idea. It has done nothing but piss-off pretty much the entire Clie community. The users of previous models are pissed because they have no WiFi solution, and NX users are pissed because the slot is bulky and has very limited usefullness (useless to many, I imagine).

A 2nd MS slot and WiFi MS would have made MUCH more sense. Everyone would be happy. Users of previous models would have a WiFi option, but would still have incentive to upgrade (to use WiFi and memory at the same time -- or additional storage options if you don't need WiFi).

I suspect Sony will realize their mistake and drop the CF slot soon. Their only other option is to release a more general purpose CF driver, and that would impact their MS sales, so I don't see that happening. (I suppose their 3rd option is to just keep pissing everyone off.)

... just my $0.02

Oh, and don't get too excited about the recent communications with Sony stating that they are "working" on it. Memory drivers are cake to write if you have the hardware documentation. Any programmer worth his salt could crank one out in less than a day (I used to write memory drivers, so I know). If Sony wanted to release a driver, it would be done already. What "working" on it means, is they are trying to decide how to clean up this mess.

Thinking the way Sony does, the most likely result is that they will drop the CF slot altogether.

I'd say the 2nd most likely possibility, is they will just leave everything the way it is, and hope all this dissent will go away over time.

What they SHOULD do is release the proper CF drivers. This would make the NX/NZ a much more powerful, versatile and usefull PDA. But if Sony had that kind of vision, the drivers would have been included with the units in the first place.

Anway, that's the end of my rant. For now...

Aloha, GG

[GeekGod]

Originally posted by mashoutposse
What I don't understand is why Sony is getting bashed for things that they have fully disclosed right on the box...
Sony is getting bashed because it was a really dumb idea, fully disclosed or not.

[mashoutposse]

What makes it 'dumb?' Really. Have you even tried WiFi on the NX? Suddenly, the reason for the large screen, built-in keyboard, camera, Jog Dial/back button, and clamshell design becomes readily apparent once you've used it.

Of course, I'm not trying to change your mind as I couldn't give a fu.ck what you think :) ;)

Posting this and checking the forums via WiFi on my CLIE at a neighbor's house, BTW :D In about 12 hours, I'll be at the dealership doing the same as my car gets major service. This thing rocks, I'm telling you.

[sputnik]

I personally love the WiFi card, I can check on some of my servers while out of town. But, a memory driver would be nice especially if you want to use a device that will only work in the memory stick, take netfront, 2 megs...put that on a cf card and use a bluetooth stick to browse, there are tons of combinations that one could use...only if you have the options. I bought the NX knowing that I may not be able to use the cf slot for memory, so I still love the NX...and will use it anyway, it is an excellent device, I just hope a driver surfaces anyway.

[xlr8]

Originally posted by GeekGod


Memory drivers are cake to write if you have the hardware documentation. Any programmer worth his salt could crank one out in less than a day (I used to write memory drivers, so I know).


Do we have a person willing to develop a CF driver (there are incentives :$:$:$). If you dont have the documentation steal it from a close sony friend ;)

[MerlinW]

I to, love the wi/fi, I use it almost everyday, both at home, and when I am around town.
Using hot spots around town is great.
I also use the cf modem card, I used that to log in from a hotel I was at last week.

[GeekGod]

Originally posted by mashoutposse
What makes it 'dumb?' Really. Have you even tried WiFi on the NX?

I didn't say WiFi was a dumb idea. I said making a non-standard CF slot was a dumb idea (see earlier post).

[Clietivity]

Who is dumber?

Sony make a CF memory driver for the NX user?

Or,

A user expect Sony to make a CF memory driver for NX?

[Clietivity]

Here is a dumberer:

How about Sony come out a MS slot CF card that will fit in the CF slot and allow user to have an Extra MS slot for Memory or peripherals?

[pelaca]

SONY, McDonald's Japan and Yahoo! Japan's
"Let's Experience Mobile Broadband with CLIE" Campaign (http://www.mactokyo.com/clietokyo/html/Events/McDonalds/McDonalds.html)

We got a chance to ask some of the engineers some questions that have been tossed around on the various CLIE forums including the big question about whether the CF slot will accept other third party STORAGE cards. And the answer was that the Clie uses a standard CF bus so that if the manufacturers create a driver for their respective memory CF cards, we should be able to use those 256MB and 512MB memory CF cards and even the 1GB microdrive!

If all the words writed on this article are true, Sony start this mess...

[ccelada]

Know what... this might be dumb, but that's exactly what i've been thinking sony will finally do...

[reggae]

i use the the wifi and love it. doesn't change the fact that i want to use my microdrive in there when i'm on a plane and want to watch movies. i agree that it was a dumb idea to use a standard sf slot for the wifi. it gave us a reason to want/rant for drivers that we know can be easily cranked.

i've posted on other threads about this... we have a bunch of hackers with their piece meal code, oscilliscopes, and assemblers but without an API we're screwed. the fact is that the VFS that supports the memory stick could EASILY be modified to support the CF slot. it's a matter of want vs. need for sony and they don't want or need to lose money on their MS.

just because the device is one of the more innovative doesn't mean that it can't be improved. case in point? give us the cf drivers.

[iebnn]

Originally posted by pelaca


If all the words writed on this article are true, Sony start this mess...

No, they just said that if a manufacturer writes the drivers it will work. No manufacturers have written the drivers. It doesn't work. How did they start this mess?

[pelaca]

Originally posted by iebnn


No, they just said that if a manufacturer writes the drivers it will work. No manufacturers have written the drivers. It doesn't work. How did they start this mess?

How the CF manufacturers can release drivers if Sony don't release the API?

[blueflame]

i think sony is screwing with us all they need is to give us a full awnser, yes or no on the driver factor

[blueflame]

oops, happy birthday to me, im 100

[reggae]

pelaca is totally on point! why would a sony engineer say that to a journalist KNOWING that the api is undisclosed? sony started this mess.

[mashoutposse]

Originally posted by pelaca


How the CF manufacturers can release drivers if Sony don't release the API?

You missed the context of that quote: Somebody asked that Sony engineer if support for standard CF cards was *technically* feasible, and that was his response. That was his own personal offering, not to be confused with an official statement from Sony declaring the slot to be more than what they advertised.

[pelaca]

Originally posted by mashoutposse


You missed the context of that quote: Somebody asked that Sony engineer if support for standard CF cards was *technically* feasible, and that was his response. That was his own personal offering, not to be confused with an official statement from Sony.

I don't know if “somebody asked that Sony engineer if support for standard CF cards was *technically* feasible”, that's the reason because I put “ If all the words write on this article are true”... May be ClieTokio put this out of context, if that the case, Sony can put his lawyers to work... In any case, poor engineer, some times is better say “I don't know”.
But working with the facts the page says “We got a chance to ask some of the engineers some questions that have been tossed around on the various CLIE forums including the big question about whether the CF slot will accept other third party STORAGE cards. And the answer was that the Clie uses a standard CF bus so that if the manufacturers create a driver for their respective memory CF cards, we should be able to use those 256MB and 512MB memory CF cards and even the 1GB microdrive!”, that's all the page says about the CF slot... Why, you think, I put this out of context?
For other part, all the workers are representative of the company, specially if they speak about his work on this company and specially if the context where he open his mouth is a publicity campaign. And at the end, the journalist make this question to him because he are working on Sony as developer on the CLIE team, or not?
That's very simple logic... This announce start all the problem... If the words are not out of context, Sony start the mess if not ClieTokio start it...

[iebnn]

The engineer didn't say anything wrong! It IS a standard CF Slot!! It's just that no one's written drivers for it yet.

[pelaca]

Originally posted by iebnn
The engineer didn't say anything wrong! It IS a standard CF Slot!! It's just that no one's written drivers for it yet.

Can I ask you, why?

[reggae]

no you cannot ask him why... he doesn't get the point if you drilled it in. it was very clear in black and white... i read the same article you did pelaca... then i emailed hitachi (current owner of the microdrive technology) and then i purchased my nx

the fact is that as an engineer talking to a journalist he did in fact operate as a representative of the company. otherwise i could have spoke to the journalist and said the same $hit and it would NOT have been newsworthy. sony started this mess.

[reggae]

by the way... there is the cliche "no comment" which would NOT have created this mess.

[cbulock]

If I remember right, the whole reason the enginears were being asked was because it was believed that the CF slot was disabled in some way to prevent it from working. It's not and we know that from the article. All that was being asked was it it were possible. If they said "No" then they would have been lying. Whats the big deal, all they said is that is was possible. I don't see that meaning that they have then commited themselves to making a driver. Some people are sounding like childern in a candy store.

[mashoutposse]

cbulock: Exactly.

[GeekGod]

Originally posted by Clietivity
Here is a dumberer:

How about Sony come out a MS slot CF card that will fit in the CF slot and allow user to have an Extra MS slot for Memory or peripherals? Already been done...

http://www.pdaden.com/Products/MstickCF.htm

Or, how about this one... (http://www.psism.com/compacttrio.htm)

Except, of course, these won't work without a CF memory driver. :p

[pelaca]

Originally posted by cbulock
If I remember right, the whole reason the enginears were being asked was because it was believed that the CF slot was disabled in some way to prevent it from working. It's not and we know that from the article. All that was being asked was it it were possible. If they said "No" then they would have been lying. Whats the big deal, all they said is that is was possible. I don't see that meaning that they have then commited themselves to making a driver. Some people are sounding like childern in a candy store.

Again,

"We got a chance to ask some of the engineers some questions that have been tossed around on the various CLIE forums including the big question about whether the CF slot will accept other third party STORAGE cards. And the answer was that the Clie uses a standard CF bus so that if the manufacturers create a driver for their respective memory CF cards, we should be able to use those 256MB and 512MB memory CF cards and even the 1GB microdrive!"

On this case ClieTokio put this out of context and made false suppositions, or not?

[reggae]

cbulock: not even

it seems that you are doing a whole lot more interpreting than pelaca. it is in black and white... question... answer. the answers also available to the engineer are:

i'm not autorized to comment on that subject
no comment
at this time, we cannot discuss those details
it's in our best interest to not release drivers for NX
i'm not sure

none of those would be lies and more importantly, they wouldn't be as misleading.

to say all someone has to do is write drivers while KNOWING that the interface is undocumented is completely misleading.

someone made an analogy of a car somewhere on this board, i think i'll follow suit...

"hey! is that there one o' dem newfangled anti-matter engines?"
"yeah"
"and i can get dilithium at any gas station?"
"all they have to do is mine the crystals from our property"

the last statement would be completely misleading if the second person KNEW that their property were heavily guarded with "no trespassing" signs all over.

okay so i like star trek

[cbulock]

I see nothing misleading about it. Of course they could have said "No comment" but the slot is a fully functional slot and all they did was verify that. I don't really see how I am looking into this too far. A question was asked and a correct answer was given. Everyone who is upset that Sony is not providing drivers or giving information to make drivers because some enginnear answered a question about the techincal capabilties of the device is gieeting into this too much. Here would be a better example IMO: Question to Enginnear:"How much hard drive space can a FAT32 hard drive accept?" Answer: "It can accept up to 2TB if someone makes a drive that big." Should we be angry that we can't buy a 2TB hard drive? Or that there isn't details being released on how to make one?

[reggae]

two problems with your analogy:

1) no single entity (sony) doesn't solely own the materials AND knowlege for making 2TB disks

2) we haven't ascertained whether the person saying it can be created is a representative of the manufacturer in your example

sony engineer's words with open API = truth
sony engineer's words with undisclosed API = half-truth

no computer hardware manufacturer is going to take on the challenge and head-ache of creating a driver with an undocumented API. what if their driver fries your device because too much/little voltage was used on a read-write?

[pelaca]

Originally posted by cbulock
I see nothing misleading about it. Of course they could have said "No comment" but the slot is a fully functional slot and all they did was verify that. I don't really see how I am looking into this too far. A question was asked and a correct answer was given. Everyone who is upset that Sony is not providing drivers or giving information to make drivers because some enginnear answered a question about the techincal capabilties of the device is gieeting into this too much.

The point is, some of the words on this article constitute a false propaganda...
Believe me if I say this engineer put in big troubles the Sony company (or ClieTokio, I don't know if the words on the article are out of context)
Why? because this article and the replies from the Sony support site, has destroyed the confidence between Sony and some of his NX customers.
I'm not happy with the flooding to Sony, this destroy the relationship with Sony too.
Now Sony looks like the big evil of the PDA movie, for some of us...

Originally posted by cbulock

Here would be a better example IMO: Question to Enginnear:"How much hard drive space can a FAT32 hard drive accept?" Answer: "It can accept up to 2TB if someone makes a drive that big." Should we be angry that we can't buy a 2TB hard drive? Or that there isn't details being released on how to make one?


That's not a good example... because the FAT32 is a higher layer than physical one... and exist the standard released for the lower layers...
On the NX slot is different because the lower layers are not documented and Sony don't want to release the documentation...
The other way is the reversal engineering but this way isn't viable, legally speaking...

Sorry if you found some misspelling on my writing, because I'm a little tired!!!

mashoutposse and cbulock, are you working for Sony or ClieTokio?

[reggae]

you know.... come to think of it... it's really quite simple how misleading that statement was...

look at the innaugural posts of most of the new users (including myself) and people are either looking for a manufacturer driver or a third party driver.

gee, i wonder why that is?