123mb on 128mb Card?

[tifosiv122]

Why do I only get 123mb on a 128mb memory stick?

Erik

[williepalm]

Thats normal. Its just like your hard disk.

[nike33]

Have some real fun, format the stick in your computer, and you only get 60mb (64mb)

So needless to say, this is why manufatures recomend you allways try to format flash cards in the native device as opposed to your computer.

[tifosiv122]

I understand its like a HD, but 5mb? Common...

Erik

[williepalm]

I've got 4 pieces of 128mb sticks. And they're all 125mbs usable.

[cbulock]

There is two different definitions of MB. The actually technical definition is 1024 KB and a KB is 1024 bytes.
The other defintion of MB is simply one million bytes. If you do the math there is a fair difference between the two definitions and hard drive maufactures always use the second one since the numbers sound bigger.
There is also some space lost to overhead form formating and such, but the reason the number is so big is due to the different definitions. When you get to large hard drives, the difference can be in the GB's.

[wellsjs]

It's been my experience that "folders," which take relatively small amounts of bytes, subtract from "usable storage space" with most reporting tools. So the more folders you have, the less usable storage space will be reported. When freshly formatted, you should see 125.5 or so. Right now I have quite a few folders on my MS and show 123.6MB usable. Hey, come to think of it, the only thing or one who delivers on promises is God! ;)

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by wellsjs
It's been my experience that "folders," which take relatively small amounts of bytes, subtract from "usable storage space" with most reporting tools. So the more folders you have, the less usable storage space will be reported. When freshly formatted, you should see 125.5 or so. Right now I have quite a few folders on my MS and show 123.6MB usable. Hey, come to think of it, the only thing or one who delivers on promises is God! ;)

123.6 is exactly what I have...

Erik

[cbulock]

Originally posted by williepalm
I've got 4 pieces of 128mb sticks. And they're all 125mbs usable.

Thats strange, both my 128MB sticks have only 123.6 MB usable. I have a Lexar and a Sandisk. I wonder if the Sonys are different?

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by cbulock


Thats strange, both my 128MB sticks have only 123.6 MB usable. I have a Lexar and a Sandisk. I wonder if the Sonys are different?

I have 2 lexars, 2 sandisks and 2 sonys...all say the same thing.

Erik

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by cbulock


Thats strange, both my 128MB sticks have only 123.6 MB usable. I have a Lexar and a Sandisk. I wonder if the Sonys are different?

Naw, maybe we just need new eyeglasses...

Come to think of it, doesn't Sony say the NX Clies have 16 MB of RAM?

It's our fault only 11mb is available:D!

It's called fuzzy math.

[nextyoyoma]

Originally posted by cbulock
There is two different definitions of MB. The actually technical definition is 1024 KB and a KB is 1024 bytes.
The other defintion of MB is simply one million bytes. If you do the math there is a fair difference between the two definitions and hard drive maufactures always use the second one since the numbers sound bigger.

This is also done because it is more efficient to operate in powers of 2....1000 is not a power of 2, but 1024 is. I don't think manufacturers really try to make their drives sound bigger, it's just that an actual 20 GB hard drive would be impractical. I just think the manufacturers don't want to have to deal with that explanation.

[reggae]

the real definition is not in the 24 byte difference from 1000 but in the fact that every storage device needs a filesystem with indexes. you know.... so it can actually find your file. the filesystem and table of indexes (in this case a fat table) takes up the missing space. same thing goes for the unusable space on your hard disks be it ntfs, fat32, fat, or hpfs.

ntfs = new technology file system
fat = file allocation table
hpfs = high performance file system

they ALL mean the advertised space is somewhat used up.... but it needs to be.

[Jeffry]

I THINK (correct me if I'm wrong) the missing 5 MB is used for partition.

[wellsjs]

Originally posted by n2ifp
Naw, maybe we just need new eyeglasses... Come to think of it, doesn't Sony say the NX Clies have 16 MB of RAM? It's our fault only 11mb is available:D! It's called fuzzy math. This discussion is about external blank memory and you are injecting internal memory where the 5M consists of preinstalled apps. There's something fuzzy but I don't think it's the math! :eek: ;)

[cbulock]

If you read the package on any hard drive you will see that it says GB=1,000,000,000 bytes. But this is really about the only place you will see a GB or MB used in that way. The standard way a MB is defined is 1024 KB and a GB = 1024 MB. I can't see how that would help a consumer because Windows also defines a GB as 1024 MB. Thats why an unformatted drive will show up with much less space than the package shows. If a 20GB hard drive will only show up as 18.6GB in Windows and 1.4GB is not all used for the file system. Also take for example the Memory Sticks. If you run MSImport, you will see that there is 129,695,744 bytes avalible on the drive. Which is about 1MB=1000KB and 1KB=10000 bytes. If it were actually 128MB it should show 134,217,728 bytes.

[cbulock]

Originally posted by wellsjs
This discussion is about external blank memory and you are injecting internal memory where the 5M consists of preinstalled apps. There's something fuzzy but I don't think it's the math! :eek: ;)

Actually, the 5MB is not used for installed apps, those are on the 16MB of ROM. 4 of the 5MB is used for heap memory and the other 1MB is used by the system for something else. Heap memory is a temperary area used by the system used much like RAM on your PC is. It's not fuzzy math at all since there is 16MB of RAM installed in the Clie.

I THINK (correct me if I'm wrong) the missing 5 MB is used for partition.

There are no partitions on Memory Sticks.

[xlr8]

I cant remember where I read it but the loss of 5 mb or so is for 'formatting' the stick. It controls all the basic fuctions like the software to get it to run, drivers, and tells it where to put specific files. I cant remember the exact 'quote' but its out there somewhere

[cbulock]

Assuming it's running FAT16, the FAT table should only take about a megabyte of space at the most.

[cepler]

Please read the following URL for an explaination on gigabyte vs. GIBIbyte, megabyte vs. MEBIbyte etc:

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

1 MEGAbyte is 1,000,000 Bytes
1 MEBIbyte is 1,048,576 Bytes

[cbulock]

Thanks for the link! I had never seen Gibibytes or mebibytes before!

[rob_squared]

Can't leave out the macs:
HFS: Heirarchial Filing System
HFS+: They liked the name, new format though.

[larryaz]

If you noticed the web link is for units and uncertainity and that is exactly what we have in this thread uncertainity

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by cepler
Please read the following URL for an explaination on gigabyte vs. GIBIbyte, megabyte vs. MEBIbyte etc:

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

1 MEGAbyte is 1,000,000 Bytes
1 MEBIbyte is 1,048,576 Bytes

Okay, but when you order extra RAM for the PC, you ask for megabytes, not mebibytes??? This is a new one on me too. I suppose being around some kind of computer for 20 years, wasn't long enough:)!

I always knew a megabyte as 1,024 Kilobytes

[reggae]

cbulock,
how are you determining the table size?

do we even know what the cluster size is set to on a memory stick?

[reggae]

i don't read the package on hard disks never had a package, i read the specs on the maker's website... in fact, i've never ordered or purchased a drive with pretty packaging with explanations of how to multiply bits. usually the drives i order are advertised in numbers of bits... raw data.

[cbulock]

I'm not sure the cluster size, but with FAT16 there is a maximum number of 65,000 clusters I believe. and at 16-bit for every entry, the tabe would come to about one megabyte at most. If the cluster were larger than need be, the table could be even smaller.

[reggae]

cluster size = disk size / # of clusters
max on fat16 = 16bits (hense fat16) = 65536

table space is a reserved thing and not dynamic. what is dynamic is how many entries are in that table. if you had 65000 entries in that table (with a seriously branched directory structure) it is not outside the realm of possibility that you'd need 3-5 MB just to keep track of the entries on a 120+MB memory stick.

[reggae]

according to: http://www.mozillaquest.com/aboutcomputers/FATData1.html

128MB size storage translates to 4% wasted space on fat16. it appears we have your answer

[cbulock]

65536 clusters * 16-bits = 1,048,576. So, 1MB.

The wasted space your are refering to on FAT16 is from cluster slack and isn't figured into the total availible space. Like the table shows, the amount of wasted space isn't a fixed amount, but they list the typical amount.

Let's say for example that the clusters are 16K in size. That would mean that every file will take up no less than 16K of space no matter what size the file is. So, a 1KB file, will take up 16K of sace and so will a 15K file. But a 1KB file will have wasted 15K while the 15K file will have only wasted 1K. And a 17K file will take up 32K of space with 15K wasted. So the amount of waste is dependant on how many small files you have. A large file like a movie will have very little wasted space.

[reggae]

the math is off... you're talking about bits not bytes.

65536 * 16 bits = 65536 * 2 BYTES = 128 KiloBytes which is the maximum.

the *typical* wasted space has always been the discussion as the topic of the discussion is 123MB on my 128MB card. the *typical* wasted space due to allocation units been incapable of being partially used is exactly what we're talking about.

[cbulock]

Your right, my math was off there. Thanks.

But the website your refering to was talking about cluster slack which only occurs after you start placing files on a drive. There is only 123MB availble on an empty stick or a full stick. And it seems to always be the same amount unavalible. If cluster slack was where the missing sace is ending up, you would be able to put one file that was 128MB in size on the stick and it would fit since the most slack a single file could have is 4K (assuming a 4K cluster size which is what I'm guessing is being used).

[Rick 098]

5 mb are NOT instaled apps. Installed apps are in flash.

[Unregistered]

This is the way the computer geeks set it up. Live with it or buy a pen and paper.