PPC Games vs. Palm Games.

[CopyCat]

Does this annoy you?

I have been looking for some good games for my NX70 and its disheartening seeing all these good PPC games and the lack of Palm ones.

Maybe im wrong and not looking in the right places??

[pigburger]

Kickoo's Breakout and now Insaniquarium are eating up all my rec time, I can't complain.

[volcanopele]

I agree. I like the games that are available for Palm. As far as the quality of PPC games, have confort in knowing that similar gamers should be coming out for the palm over the next year.

Jason

[CopyCat]

I am not saying Palm games are not good. Just the amount and quality are behind that of PPC, im crediting this of course to PPC being based on windows.

I would be happy if soon some of the PPC games started coming out for the Palm.

I enjoy Bejeweled and Zap!2016 for now they occupy plenty of time:)

[*L*F*C*M*]

Palm could be 'behind' PPC too, because the hi-res color screens are just now becoming common. New games that are as nice as PPC games are being released . . . I love Insanaquarium . . .!!

[___]

Originally posted by *L*F*C*M*
Palm could be 'behind' PPC too, because the hi-res color screens are just now becoming common. New games that are as nice as PPC games are being released . . . I love Insanaquarium . . .!!

Oh paaaleez. Palm games are no where near PPC games yet. It's like raw eggs and a cake. Palm games are no match for PPC. Just look at these games and start drooling:
http://www.pocketgamer.org/reviews/index.php?HostSite=PocketGamer

Mmhmm, 320X320 Master Theif vs 240X320 Tomb Raider....mmmhmm I think you get my drift.

[rhart00]

Originally posted by *L*F*C*M*
Palm could be 'behind' PPC too, because the hi-res color screens are just now becoming common.

Well they may have been behind, palm pdas quickly caught up and surpassed PPCs in the screen category at least. NX70v has higher resolution than any PPC. would be nice if this same thing happened for games too!

[___]

Originally posted by rhart00


Well they may have been behind, palm pdas quickly caught up and surpassed PPCs in the screen category at least. NX70v has higher resolution than any PPC. would be nice if this same thing happened for games too!

Even if palm has the highest resolution, the graphics are terrible on palms compared to ppcs.

[cbulock]

Remember that PPC's have had powerful processors for a while now. Game developers aren't gonna make games for a small amount of people who have powerful Palms. I think we will have to wait a few years until ARM processors are in every Palm, then maybe we will start to see some of those cool looking games.

PS, even though the PPC games look real cool, the Palm games are just as fun.

[___]

Originally posted by cbulock
Remember that PPC's have had powerful processors for a while now. Game developers aren't gonna make games for a small amount of people who have powerful Palms. I think we will have to wait a few years until ARM processors are in every Palm, then maybe we will start to see some of those cool looking games.

PS, even though the PPC games look real cool, the Palm games are just as fun.

Lol. "just as fun..."
Ok...Master Theif VS Quake......I think quake is quite a bit funner.
Xcade VS Pocketgenesis....mhm....pacman vs sonic
Kingdom VS Age of Empires and Argentum....that is just a funny comparison because I'd have a lot more fun playing Age of Empires than the Kingdom.
Insaniquarium...is that the best game for palm? Thought so. Oh right...you can get it for PPC too. Laffs

[hansschmucker]

The Palm was just not meant to be a gaming plattform, while portable gaming was a factor for pocketpcs from the very beginning. Palm gamers are usually occasional gamers, that's why most games will load fast and can be played in less than 60seconds per round. PocketPC gamers are power gamers, that's why games take quite a bit longer to load and take up to 60MINUTES per round. There used to be a clear division between the organizer owners: Gaming: PocketPC, Working: Palm.
Problem is that's not the way it works anymore since PALM based organizers become more and more powerfull, but the developers which used to develop games for the Gaming Organizer plattform are now stuck with the people they hired for PocketPC programming and the Tools they purchased, with the publisher and so on. It will take quite some time for them to ajust. Also right now they cannot be sure if the engines they develop now will work with pos6 since that will be beOS based.

I would say serious palm games are due in 4 to 5 years, not much sooner

[Zork]

copycat, there arent any games avail for PPCs which could bypass the ones for the Palm OS. Take a look at www.palmgear.com and you will realize that the PalmOS market ist the one where all games are made for, cause it has a market share of almost 80 % of all PDAs out there (so it would be at best mindless to develop games for a almost non exiting PDA platform). Sega, Ubisoft, Eidos, Infogrames, Astraware, ZioSoft, LudiGames, are all doin games for the PalmOS. LudiGames even stopped doin PPC games. And ZioSoft (a former almost PPC only developer) is doin now more and more Palm games.
And since Sony released HiRes and HiRes+ Clies the games lookin far better, cause of the twice as large resolution on Clies then on any PPC out there.
Sp simply get in contact with PalmOS scene and you will realize how wrong your fear were.

[Zork]

hansschmucker, amazing that you did a posting which is completely wrong from the first to the last line. Not only, is it the Palm which is used mainly for private use and the few PPC sold is used mainly for office purpose (which is based on the last figures from PCData), but also is Palm gaming far more advanved the PPC gaming ever were. Why this is so .... read my former posting.

[Zork]

Race Fever, Master Thief, Serious Sam, Swirl, Bump Attack, Zap 2016, Civilization, DragonFire, Puzzle Bobble, Columns, Rayman, V-Rally (both years before there PPC counterparts), Kikkoos Breakout, Kingdom, DragonBane II, Monopoly, Lemmings, Palmpulus, Taktik, Who wants to be a millionaire, Rifle Slugs and the new racing game from Astraware.
And take a look at the Astraware games which are also ported (!!!!) to PPC. The PPC versions everytime look horrible compared with Palm versions, cause PPC is now way too old to keep up with Palm OS devices. Its way too slow and its screen is at best worhtless **** (half the resolution of one year old Clies).
So there never were a PPC gaming scene and there never will be any compared with the one avail for Palm OS users (beside some useless ports from windows which are way too slow running on PPCs).
So i suggest to close this thread cause its just another worthless attempt from jealious PPC losers to spread some propaganda for their fading platform.

[___]

Originally posted by Zork
Race Fever, Master Thief, Serious Sam, Swirl, Bump Attack, Zap 2016, Civilization, DragonFire, Puzzle Bobble, Columns, Rayman, V-Rally (both years before there PPC counterparts), Kikkoos Breakout, Kingdom, DragonBane II, Monopoly, Lemmings, Palmpulus, Taktik, Who wants to be a millionaire, Rifle Slugs and the new racing game from Astraware.
And take a look at the Astraware games which are also ported (!!!!) to PPC. The PPC versions everytime look horrible compared with Palm versions, cause PPC is now way too old to keep up with Palm OS devices. Its way too slow and its screen is at best worhtless **** (half the resolution of one year old Clies).
So there never were a PPC gaming scene and there never will be any compared with the one avail for Palm OS users (beside some useless ports from windows which are way too slow running on PPCs).
So i suggest to close this thread cause its just another worthless attempt from jealious PPC losers to spread some propaganda for their fading platform.

Zork, you have no friggen idea what you are talking about. Yah, WOW 320x320 BEJEWELED...MUST BE FUN. What a dumb kid.

http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison.JPG

You have absolutely no knowledge in saying that PALM games are more ADVANCED than PPC because they are CLEARLY NOT. You can even ask ionside programmers as they have said that porting Argentum to PALM would mean REDUCTION IN GAMMA AND GRAPHICS AND EVERYTHING! Thanks your your ignorance. You have been owned.


As well, can you not divide? 320 / 2 is 160. PPCs have 320X240 dumb nut.

[___]

Want more? I find these comparison photos pretty funny as it clearly shows PPC games do NOT look horrible as you stated, and are NOT outdated.
http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison2.JPG

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by ___

As well, can you not divide? 320 / 2 is 160. PPCs have 320X240 dumb nut.

Actually he's right since new Clies have a vertical resolution of 480 and 480/2 = 240

About the wrong from first to last line stuff.

Comon Palm games more advanced? I'm really all in favour of my NX70v and I'm glad to have one instead of a organizer with a slow and ineffective interface but... You've got to admit the obvious truth: Since Win games are easier to port to pocketpc then pos there are way better looking games for ppc then there are for pos. About ppc not for gaming... well ... I know 9 persons who own a ppc and all right all of them bought them for office work. But 8 of them have quake and various other games installed.

About the get in touch woth the palmos scene stuff. I think of myself as a pretty well informed guy (Also thanks to Cliesource =D )

[hansschmucker]

About the pictures: I said in about 5 years. Don't compare now when 9/10 pos games are still pos3/ 160x160 based

[___]

I tried to get 320X320 screenies at PDARCADE and Palmgear but they all had the 160s....I found the mastertheif one. Even if they are 320X320, they are still fugly compared to PPC.

[hansschmucker]

I never said anything else. My concern is more of the nature "Why would I want a game that eats up half my memory and drains my battery in a matter of minutes" At least Quake does so on my friends Casiopeia

[___]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
I never said anything else. My concern is more of the nature "Why would I want a game that eats up half my memory and drains my battery in a matter of minutes" At least Quake does so on my friends Casiopeia

K whatever..I'm not arguing with you anyways. I am arguing with Zork's stupid comments about Palm games being more advanced and companies like SEGA porting there games to Palm even though SEGA does not make palm games...laff.

[___]

Also, I'd have a lot more fun playing Quake for 15 minutes than playing Master Thief for 4 hours.

[hansschmucker]

Oh and Zork you're figures are outdated Palm is down to 60%

[cbulock]

____,

I find two parts of your argument flawed. One, you seem totally caught up on which platform has the best graphics. I wouldn't argue because right now the PPC has better graphics for its games than Palm. But give it a couple of years and Palm will right with PPC. I still play Super NES quite a bit because they made the games fun and didn't worry as much about the quality of the graphics as they do now days. And I would play NES if I still had one (I play the emulator from time to time) because I thnk the system had some of the best games.

Second, all the games you are comparing are, the best PPC has to offer compared to it's Palm equalant. Why aren't you using the best Palm games as a reference. What about Breakout and TakTik? Astraware, MegaSoft and Kickoo all make games that look very impressive, but I didn't see those included in any of your screen shots.

BTW, please refrain from calling people dumb and stupid, you are starting to sound like someone who was just banned from here. :)

[hansschmucker]

Yeah, but I usually play on my PDA when I have to wait for something, i.e. a train tramp friend, arrival or whatever and I spend at least 90mins a day waiting

[___]

Originally posted by cbulock
____,

I find two parts of your argument flawed. One, you seem totally caught up on which platform has the best graphics. I wouldn't argue because right now the PPC has better graphics for its games than Palm. But give it a couple of years and Palm will right with PPC. I still play Super NES quite a bit because they made the games fun and didn't worry as much about the quality of the graphics as they do now days. And I would play NES if I still had one (I play the emulator from time to time) because I thnk the system had some of the best games.

Second, all the games you are comparing are, the best PPC has to offer compared to it's Palm equalant. Why aren't you using the best Palm games as a reference. What about Breakout and TakTik? Astraware, MegaSoft and Kickoo all make games that look very impressive, but I didn't see those included in any of your screen shots.

BTW, please refrain from calling people dumb and stupid, you are starting to sound like someone who was just banned from here. :)

K. But cbu, I used comparisons close as possible such as Simcity with Simcity, Tennis with Tennis....

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by cbulock
____,
I still play Super NES quite a bit because they made the games fun and didn't worry as much about the quality of the graphics as they do now days. And I would play NES if I still had one (I play the emulator from time to time) because I thnk the system had some of the best games.

Hey, another SNES/NES/MASTER SYSTEM/GAME GEAR Player. Emulators are nice but there's nothing like the real thing (The gamegear had a screen almost as good as today's but using a different approache. They build in a miniature TV)

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by ___


K. But cbu, I used comparisons close as possible such as Simcity with Simcity, Tennis with Tennis....

That doesn't work here since clones are usually better then ports on pos.

[cbulock]

What I was meaning was, you compared the best Pocket PC games such as SimCity and and Age of Empires to games that resemble them on the Palm, but you didn't compare the best Palm games such as Breakout or Billards to their PPC equivlants. I like Kingdom, but it's certainly not on the top of the list when it comes to Palm games.

[___]

AS you can see, even the "best graphic" palm games are no where near in detail, sophistication, and are not "in depth" compared to some of the "not the greatest" ppc games.

http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison3.JPG

[hansschmucker]

There's also a different problem with this discussion as there are no native pos5 games available yet. There are pos 5enhanced games but no native ones. Most of the instructions are still in 68k

[hansschmucker]

So, we compare a 386 to a PentiumMMX. Nice one

[___]

But you cannot take the future into consideration as there is going to be enhancements in PPC as well. As of right now, PPC has better, more ADVANCED, and more sophisticated games. Though NX and NZ are the only Clie's that have somewhat competitive processors compared to the low end PPC, you cannot compare the ability of an NX or NZ's processor to the high end PPCs which are beyond Palm period.

[hansschmucker]

I think the NX can be compared to an average PPC, not low end, since there are some hardware enhancements that improve speed for applications that use those tremendously. As for the future of PPC: There will be more speed that's for sure but no dramatic changes anymore since ppc can already do everything it's supposed to do - but for palm the change to pos6 - beOS - will be dramatic as this will enable the OS to use traditional programming instead of the current memory allocation system. I'm all in favour of continuing this discussion in 5 or 6 years when beOS has become the standard for organizers

[JackAxe]

In 5-6 years it will be a completely different story for both PDAs. You really can not compare what if scenarios, especially for 5 or 6 years down the line. Saying that the PPC can already do everything is ignorant. This is simply not the case. I have a whole list of wants and needs for both my PPC and Clie'.

<]=)

[hansschmucker]

I t would be ignorant if I were a PPC user, which I am not, and I did say "everything it's _supposed_ to do". That's important. Also I was talking about the structure of the OS not what applications are available and while PalmOS will certainly change during the next versions, requiring for a whole new way of developing games and applications, this is unlikely for ppc since the structure for more complex applications is already there.

Maybe this comparison will help. When programming in C is PPC (you basically take care of everything: Input, Output, Memory) then Basic is PalmOS (You can do complex calculations but most of the time you will use the inluded, limited set of commands to do what you want)

[Massman82]

Both platforms have great games for an organizer.

Pocket PC has better graphics.
Game-play can be disputed.

Because of some inside info, I can tell you that Palm games will GREATLY evolve over this coming year.

Deity 3D ][ will be unbelievable! (Check out the message boards for Mobile Wizardry)
Master Thief is already better then most first-person shooters on the Pocket PC. It has better graphics/framerate. (I am not putting into account Tomb Raider since it is a different type of game)

I think RPG games are far superior on the Palm OS yet strategy games are much better on the Pocket PC.

Puzzle games are obviously far better on the Palm OS. Simulation games are equal on both sides.

Arcade - slightly better on the Pocket PC

Sports - FAR better on the Pocket PC (even though I hear that Baseball Addict is coming to the Palm OS...no more info)

Hi-res and OS 5 are really broadening what is possible on the POS.

[___]

"I think RPG games are far superior on the Palm OS yet strategy games are much better on the Pocket PC. "

:P Quake VS Mastertheif, Tomb Raider VS Serious Sam

I have only played MAstertheif outta all 4...but I heard quake and tomb raider are really sweet if you have a fast enough PPC...

[Massman82]

I was more reffering to games like Aldon's Crossing, Dragon Bane 2, Dragonfire, and others...

[iebnn]

Originally posted by ___


K. But cbu, I used comparisons close as possible such as Simcity with Simcity, Tennis with Tennis....

Why not compare some of better graphical palm games with their PPC counterparts, as opposed to looking at the top PPC games and comparing them with their Palm counterparts? I'm talking about games such as TakTik, etc

[iebnn]

Never mind. Didn't read the rest of the thread

[iebnn]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
There's also a different problem with this discussion as there are no native pos5 games available yet. There are pos 5enhanced games but no native ones. Most of the instructions are still in 68k

Everything that can be in an ARMlet IS in an armlet with Masterthief3d. It is almost ALL ARMlet code.

[JackAxe]

In my opinion Master Thief is just a so-so game. If I compare it to Ultima Underworld, which is a PPC game ported from the PC by ZIOS, I would even go as far as to say that MT sucks. And as for RPG games, Ultima Underworld although first person is by far my favorite. And when comparing Master Thief to even Doom, it looks horrible. Besides, the PPC has Quake and Quake 2, true 3D engines with polygons, not sprites.

Are you making these comparisons from actual use of a PPC and PALM, or are you going by hear say?

I see your point on the OS Hansschmucker, but still even comparing the operating systems 5 years down the line is really not feasible. I would like a PPC or PALM with the elegance and power of OSX. The current rev of Pocket PC 2002 is very weak. And from just general use, like the PALM, without tweaks the overall OS is lacking in many features I've become accustom to on both my Mac and PC.

I personally think that PALM games will start to catch up by next year.

<]=)

[GoldenTiger]

I have over 30 OS5 high-res games installed on my Clie that look just like PocketPC ones for the most part. Do a search for my "games fast lane" post to see a list of the best. Also, many of the games you posted comparison shots of are available in high-res/high-res+... post the real deal or get out and stop faking.

&nbsp;

Also check out pdarcade.com's Palm preview article... lots of great games coming. I'm going to make an article on my site soon comparing PPC and Palm gaming and productivity apps to dispel the myth of PPC's superiority once and for all... you have to look a little, but the Palm has high-res stuff with between 50% more&nbsp;and 2x the resolution of PPC (320x240 vs. 320x480/320x320) widely available. I'll be making a post in about 2 weeks with a link to it...

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by iebnn


Everything that can be in an ARMlet IS in an armlet with Masterthief3d. It is almost ALL ARMlet code.


Shocking, if true. But I have some doubts as some developers were talking (on the subject of doom for pos) about limitations of the engine. And they made some very clear statements about the importance of ARM code there. Nice toy, but not important.

Also, you could theoretically wrote total programs in ARM-code if you're used to assembler. Also the c-compiler could automatically compile code into ARMlets, which it doesn't.

[Massman82]

Deity 3D ][ is a much BETTER engine then DOOM. It could easily be skinned into Doom and it would probably run at 30-40 frames per second on a 200mhz device.

Can your Pocket PC do that? (I think it only runs 5-16 fps on 200mhz machines!) :) :)

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by JackAxe

a)Are you making these comparisons from actual use of a PPC and PALM, or are you going by hear say?

b)I see your point on the OS Hansschmucker, but still even comparing the operating systems 5 years down the line is really not feasible.

c)I would like a PPC or PALM with the elegance and power of OSX. The current rev of Pocket PC 2002 is very weak.

d)And from just general use, like the PALM, without tweaks the overall OS is lacking in many features I've become accustom to on both my Mac and PC.

e)I personally think that PALM games will start to catch up by next year.

<]=)

a)Some use. About 8 hours total maybe.

b)No. At best it's a guess. But still I think it might be a good guess.

c)Yeah, me too and I don't see why POS5 isn't that way. Since most programs use The build form options anyway it would be pretty simple to add stuff like skins, shadows and so on.

d)Yep. Buy or die. It is impossible to use a Palm out of the box without additional software

e)I think not. At least not in the gfx department

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by Massman82
Deity 3D ][ is a much BETTER engine then DOOM. It could easily be skinned into Doom and it would probably run at 30-40 frames per second on a 200mhz device.

Can your Pocket PC do that? (I think it only runs 5-16 fps on 200mhz machines!) :) :)

Good one. Deity 3D ][ is good 68k engine but not for ARM. It's fast all right, but it doesn't even support polygonal walls/floors. All brushes have to be retangular and the absence of a good texture compression is unacceptable for a device with so little memory

[Unregistered]

GoldenTiger, the best Palm games on your list are no comparison for the best PPC games. Fact.

[Massman82]

Originally posted by hansschmucker


Good one. Deity 3D ][ is good 68k engine but not for ARM. It's fast all right, but it doesn't even support polygonal walls/floors. All brushes have to be retangular and the absence of a good texture compression is unacceptable for a device with so little memory

I'm sorry, but you need to get your information straight! Deity 3D ][ DOES support polygonal walls/floors. It is ARM. 99% of it is ARMlets. It runs 40+fps on my NX60. (Master Thief not Deity 3D ][)

Master Thief DOES NOT use Deity 3D ][. That is a much enhanced version of the engine.

Also, as my article states, enhanced sound effects/music will be added to the engine.

[hansschmucker]

Sorry, mixed up those to =) Nobody is perfect

[Massman82]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
Sorry, mixed up those to =) Nobody is perfect

Hehe, everyone, except for Chip and Ivo. (Developers of Deity) ;)

[irwjager]

PalmOS units are on par now with PPC units when it comes to hardware (i own both).
As mentioned a couple of times before, it's just a matter of time before games too are on par with PPC. Mind you that OS5 has not been around that long yet for us developers to play around with.
We've only just started to investigate what do to with the enormous surplus of CPU power compared to the old 68K units.

Check the screenies of our upgraded D3D engine. Textured floors/ceilings, perfectly round structures/curves. Non-orthogonal/sloped walls/floors, voxel graphics, still runs at about 25FPS on a T|T (some optimizing to do still). And we've only just begun exploring the possibilities !

One of the advantages of the pre-PalmOS5 legacy is that the engine's footprint is still about 150kb, and that it uses about 32kb of dynamic memory. A level takes up no more than 10 kb's (we don't use BSP trees). All excluding bitmaps ofcourse...

Cheers,

Ivo Jager - MT3D/D3D lead developer
ivo_jager@mobilewizardry.com

[hansschmucker]

OK, been there. done that... wouldn't it be in fact easier and faster to work in 16bit then looking up each pixel in your colortable?

Anyway... you're right the engine has improved a lot but it's still not on par with Quake which is my "gold standard" when it comes to 3d gaming. The shading and non-perspective low-res textures are my primarily hate factors. I could do with the rest. Although support for tiny 3d models would be very nice

[Massman82]

I am nearly positive that Deity 3D ][ can handle Quake.

[hansschmucker]

Right now I'm not even positive that it will handle models at all. All I've seen in Deity is sprites. I guess it could be added, but will it be added???

Also I have a question about something entirely different. Are you thinking about publishing Deity as an editable engine? Like a user purcheses your engine with a bunch of example maps and a manual. He then registers at your page to a) Get access to custom maps and b) to the compile tool which runs server-side and will when requested sign a map for a username and make it available for download (only for the user who requested it, so it will only work with one username: should work best against piracy)

These are only ideas by a guy who loves quake mapping

BTW: You've seen tenebrae? Doom3 lighting effects in Quake1. This is certainly not possible on Palm OR PPC.
http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net

[JackAxe]

Why doesn't someone just port Quake to PALM?

Wasn't the basis of the Deity engine created from a PALM demo contest, or something like that?

<]=)

[Massman82]

No it wasn't... (I don't know the specifics but the engine was created about a year before that.)
I think that was created to spread the word about MobileWizardry.

Deity can't do Quake because of copyright problems. Get the company that owns the rights to Quake/Doom to give them a license, and then you will have Pocket Doom/Quake...

[irwjager]

All screenshots were made from work-in-progress. There's no saying what will be the definitive feature set for D3D][

Comparing Quake and D3D][ is really like comparing apples and oranges:

Quake uses a BSP tree to determine visible polygons. Then rotates and draws them in the correct order.
D3D uses raycasting to determine visible pixels and draws them. (i.e. NO polygons are used in D3D)
Each method has its advantages and disadvantages.

D3D can render hills, wavy water and perfectly curved walls/pillars *FAST* Plus there's absolutely no overdraw (it only spends cycles on stuff that the player can actually see), eliminating the need for (slow) z-buffering.
Quake can rotate the camera 3 ways whereas D3D has certain limits that are inherent to raycasting and the way levels are represented in memory.

3D models are very much possible in D3D. They do, however, slow down an engine a lot when there's a lot of them on screen. I personally do not find Quake's framerate on the PocketPC acceptable for a fast paced first person shooter.

I'm pretty confident that, in time, we can achieve Quake quality rendering (including light mapping and portals) at higher resolution and higher framerate than the Quake port.

[iebnn]

Originally posted by hansschmucker


Good one. Deity 3D ][ is good 68k engine but not for ARM. It's fast all right, but it doesn't even support polygonal walls/floors. All brushes have to be retangular and the absence of a good texture compression is unacceptable for a device with so little memory

It can do polygonal walls now... look at the new screenshots

[hansschmucker]

to Iebnn. I admited my mistake before. I thought about MT

to Ivo. Since I am no regular PPC player but a Win/Lin player I tend to compare to a desktop pc, also I compare Deity to Quake for DOS which worked great on a P/90. I know this is hardly fair, but it's hard to get used to a system that looks so similar and works so different. Oh and ... uhm ... Would you mind commenting on Deity as a user-editable engine (see earlier post)? thanx =)

[iebnn]

Sorry I have a habit of replying to msgs before I Read the rest of a thread

[JackAxe]

Originally posted by Massman82
No it wasn't... (I don't know the specifics but the engine was created about a year before that.)
I think that was created to spread the word about MobileWizardry.

Deity can't do Quake because of copyright problems. Get the company that owns the rights to Quake/Doom to give them a license, and then you will have Pocket Doom/Quake...

I wouldn't want a Deity version of Quake on a Clie'. From what I recall, ID made Quake's source free. I would rather see a true port of Quake on future Clie's with the power to run it.

Here are some screen shots of the Doom Deity hack that was made last year.
http://mobilewizardry.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=117

Fortunately Doom does not run as slow as you've claimed. gfDoom runs very fluent at full frame rate on my Pocket PC. But your numbers could be applied to Quake which hovers from good down to pokey.

<]=)

[Zork]

ppc-palm, nice comparisions. How bout comparing Bejeweled Palm vs. Diamond Mine. How bout comparing Shaghai for Palm and PPC. What bout comparing Pocket Mahjongg for Palm and Pocket PC. What bout comparing Billiards for Palm and Pocket PC.
And what bout not bein stup*d enough to compare complete different games. And what bout takin in account that its impossible to play Sim City 2000 at 320 *240, cause it were one fo the first games for the PC which runs only with 640*480 for some reason (the same is true for Age of Empire (its a complete waste of time doin such a game with such horrible graphx)). Thats why Sim city on Palm works way better, cause it works almost at its original resolution. And dont be that incompetent to show graphx of FIFA for PPC. I played it a while and this is the most sh*tty and horrible lookin version of FIFA i ever played (and I even played the first GameBoy version cause im a real FIFA fan). Even QSoccer on my SonyErricson mobile plays a few dozen times better then this sh*t.
You see this is the state of PPC gaming. Its simply dead or games are ported which are completely worthless.
And BTW stup*d : 640 * 480 = 320 * 240 * 2
Thats why all PPC games look that horrible compared with the Palm versions (ive played a few PPC games (also Diamond Mine for example) and they looked really antique compared to the Palm versions).
So have fun defending a dead platform which never had the smallest chance against the Palm OS devices.
And bout your developers : Windows developers never have the smallest clue bout other platforms. I remember as John Carmack (which is otherwise really competent) did the Mac version of Quake III. the game were way slower then the windows counterpart despite the fact, that Macs are 2 - 4 times faster then Windows PCs. Then he hired some Mac developer which optimized his code and Quake III run 2 times faster on the Mac. So windows developers never ever have a clue how other platforms are working. thats why there ports are always sh*t (look at Hexakto as some worst case scenario).

[Zork]

JackAxe, ports are always sh*t. Be happy that you have with Deity a engine which were made for your platform and therefor takes advantage of your platform. PPCs dont have that, cause there is no native development for that platform. Its mainly recompiling windows stuff. Thats why their applications are that slow (cause you cant run stuff which is used to run on a 1-2 GHz CISC CPU useful on a 200 MHz PDA means ARM CPU) and look that horrible (how to directly port graphx from at least 1024 * 768 to 320 * 240 w/o losing the complete gamefun) ? You have to develop software with the target platform in mind. Ports are always just a waste of time (look for example at the ports at consoles. the Gamecube has by far the best graphx of all consoles avail today (and yep, I also own a PS2 ;) and really like to play games on that one too - would like to do the same on the XBox too, but there arent any real games released yet for this platform)). Look at the unique and awesome graphx for Starfox Adventure, Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime or Resident Evil Zero. But take a look at an average ported game like for example FIFA 2003 and it looks at best average. So ports are always horrible from a graphx point of view.
Thats why Deity II look that better then any other PDA FPS avail and has way more modeling features then any other PDA FPS.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Zork
ppc-palm, nice comparisions. How bout comparing Bejeweled Palm vs. Diamond Mine. How bout comparing Shaghai for Palm and PPC. What bout comparing Pocket Mahjongg for Palm and Pocket PC. What bout comparing Billiards for Palm and Pocket PC.
And what bout not bein stup*d enough to compare complete different games. And what bout takin in account that its impossible to play Sim City 2000 at 320 *240, cause it were one fo the first games for the PC which runs only with 640*480 for some reason (the same is true for Age of Empire (its a complete waste of time doin such a game with such horrible graphx)). Thats why Sim city on Palm works way better, cause it works almost at its original resolution. And dont be that incompetent to show graphx of FIFA for PPC. I played it a while and this is the most sh*tty and horrible lookin version of FIFA i ever played (and I even played the first GameBoy version cause im a real FIFA fan). Even QSoccer on my SonyErricson mobile plays a few dozen times better then this sh*t.
You see this is the state of PPC gaming. Its simply dead or games are ported which are completely worthless.
And BTW stup*d : 640 * 480 = 320 * 240 * 2
Thats why all PPC games look that horrible compared with the Palm versions (ive played a few PPC games (also Diamond Mine for example) and they looked really antique compared to the Palm versions).
So have fun defending a dead platform which never had the smallest chance against the Palm OS devices.
And bout your developers : Windows developers never have the smallest clue bout other platforms. I remember as John Carmack (which is otherwise really competent) did the Mac version of Quake III. the game were way slower then the windows counterpart despite the fact, that Macs are 2 - 4 times faster then Windows PCs. Then he hired some Mac developer which optimized his code and Quake III run 2 times faster on the Mac. So windows developers never ever have a clue how other platforms are working. thats why there ports are always sh*t (look at Hexakto as some worst case scenario).

LOL go look at screenshots. The windows PORTED version of Diamond Mine even looks nicer than Bejeweled. Hahaha SIMCITY FOR PALM! THAT IS A LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe you evne responded. You are humiliating yourself. Don't make me post a Simcity PPC vs Simcity Palm because it'll just make you blush. BTW even if Fifa graphix are bad (even though they clearly are not), at least there is a soccer game for Palm! roflmao. Same goes with Quake..at least there is a shootemup game, unless you consider MT a shootemup game. I consider MT more like a blocky screensaver that you can press 3 buttons to interact with.

[JackAxe]

I can't disagree with that, especially on the comments about the GameCube. My friends have XBoxes, the only game we play of late is Time Splitters, the rest of the time is spent on Mario Party.

Most of the games I liked best were MCGA, so by turning my PPC sideway I can play them at full rez. I can't lie, this is kind of annoying sometimes.

The Deity engine is awesome for what it does, but for now I'm happy with Doom on my PPC it runs at full frame rate. The Deity 2 is something to look forward to, so hopefully when I upgrade my PALM end of year some games will be available that utilize it. But in the long run, I would like to see a true port of Quake to Clie'.

I just want to point out one game for PPC that was just released and is a blast to play. Looks like a game from 1995.
http://www.pocketgamer.org/showthread.php?threadid=2112

<]=)

[Unregistered]

BTW PPC games do not look horrible compared to Palm. Did you not see my previously posted screenshots? Maybe I should post them again. Yea, keep drooling:
http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison2.JPG
http://members.shaw.ca/fouriiiis/comparison3.JPG


Don't even brag about your T665 and its hi-res, because that means jack.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Zork
JackAxe, ports are always sh*t. Be happy that you have with Deity a engine which were made for your platform and therefor takes advantage of your platform. PPCs dont have that, cause there is no native development for that platform. Its mainly recompiling windows stuff. Thats why their applications are that slow (cause you cant run stuff which is used to run on a 1-2 GHz CISC CPU useful on a 200 MHz PDA means ARM CPU) and look that horrible (how to directly port graphx from at least 1024 * 768 to 320 * 240 w/o losing the complete gamefun) ? You have to develop software with the target platform in mind. Ports are always just a waste of time (look for example at the ports at consoles. the Gamecube has by far the best graphx of all consoles avail today (and yep, I also own a PS2 ;) and really like to play games on that one too - would like to do the same on the XBox too, but there arent any real games released yet for this platform)). Look at the unique and awesome graphx for Starfox Adventure, Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime or Resident Evil Zero. But take a look at an average ported game like for example FIFA 2003 and it looks at best average. So ports are always horrible from a graphx point of view.
Thats why Deity II look that better then any other PDA FPS avail and has way more modeling features then any other PDA FPS.

K...where did you get the idea that Gaycube has best grafix of all consoles? Xbox has better graphix you **************. That is a fact.

[Massman82]

Why can't you register?

[JackAxe]

The GameCube has the some of the best qaulity games. Yes we all know the XBOX has more power, but honestly name one game besides Halo, on the XBOX that is better then anything the GameCube or PS2 has. And on the Halo note, Metroid Prime beats the pants off it single player. This aslo includes over graphic quality. Rember that Halo was ported from a in-progress Mac version that was being optimized for Rage 128s at the time.

When it comes down to it, besides the opening logo and other console traits, the games themselves look pretty much the same.

<]=)

[iebnn]

JackAxe: Shenmue

[JackAxe]

My budy will completely agree with you %100. Tis the only reason he bought the XBOX. Ok name another game.:D But from personall preference, Metroid Prime is my favorite, even over the all mighty Shenmue.

I'm a ZELDA cult worshiper, so I purchased my GameCube in anticipation of my enlightening.

<]=)

[somas1]

Originally posted by Massman82
Why can't you register? Because he is ___ and most people have him on their ignore list and now he is posting as unregistered so that we have to read his tripe.&nbsp;

[hansschmucker]

IMHO the gamecube and xbox are on par, running of a modification of the same crappy os. Both have better gfx then the ps2, but the best games are just ps2 games. Also I couldn't play with that xbox piece of sh!t in my hand. That's no controller!

[Spiral]

PS2 games rock i must say, Dynasty Warriors 3...mmm...DDR...mmm...Devil May Cry...and some others.

The msot interesting games for gamecube i've played/seen are super monkey ball and super smash brothers melee (the latter alone is nearly enuf to get one)

I've played an Xbox in stores, and even a gameboy is lighter than it, more comfortable too. I haven't played many games, so i won't make a biased comment about game quality (xbox is a brick tho)

[Zork]

Unregistered, yep, ive seen the screenshots and its nice that you really think that Sim city 2000 could be played witha tiny 320 * 240 screen. Its impossible. Thats why Sim City for Palm is way better playable. and it would be even more if there ever will be a HiRes or HiRes+ version.
Then its nice that you realized that there is a HiRes version of Master Thief (beside that you still posted the LoRews pictures :) ). Isnt that a little way better graphxwise then a dead old game running at .... what is it agan ? .... yep, its 320 * 240 (not even the Atari VCS 2600 durin the late 70s had such a f*ckin horrible resolution :) ).
Back to the games : Where is Who wants to be a millionaire for PPC ? No version avail beside some worthless clones ? How long did it took before Rayman were ported to PPC ? Was it really more then a year ? And how often could you played through the complete game on the Palm in that time ? And how many FPS are availl for the PPC with a resolution of 320*320 ? You really mean none ? Isnt that a little small ?
This list goes on and on. As mentioned LudiSoft stopped developing for Pocket PC. Even PPC only developer Hexacto concentrates now at the Palm (there games still look like sh*t, cause they are Windows developers with no clue bout the Palm, but hey, at least they realize that the PPC market share is fading and therefor they have to go with the Palm OS monopoly).
And finally my neat little list again :
Race Fever, Master Thief, Serious Sam, Swirl, Bump Attack, Zap 2016, Civilization, DragonFire, Puzzle Bobble, Columns, Rayman, V-Rally (both years before there PPC counterparts), Kikkoos Breakout, Kingdom, DragonBane II, Monopoly, Lemmings, Palmpulus, Taktik, Who wants to be a millionaire, Rifle Slugs and the new racing game from Astraware (lookin a "little" better then the best PPC racing game V-Rally).
BTw So you really mean there is no Sega game avail for PPC ? How could this be ?
And you mean that Breakout and TikTak could be played on small, means PPC, screen too ? Ever seen the real version on any HiRes Palm OS device before it were downsized for this antique stuff .... forgot its name .... yep, it were PPC :) ?
One last thing : Never ever again compare they amazing HRes version of Bejeweled with its living colors (which are some real help) with the paleolithic game called Diamond Mine for PPC. Sorry to tell, but Diamond Mine is pure sh*t compared with Bejeweled. And I really, really like this game (bought it after a few daze of playin the demo version and its worth every cent. Best PDA game I ever played (PDA games usually are fast paced puzzle games, cause thats the best challenge when you dont have much time left - and usually you gaming with PDAs between doin other things andtherefor dont have much time left. So RPGs, strategy games and other time consuming stuff is nice for PDAs and I like them too, but I almost never play them). thats why im honest bout it.

[Zork]

JackAxe, Shenmue 2 looking any good ? This is a game from 1999. It were amazing then and I were proud showing it to any folks then on my DreamCast. But this game is now so much out of date that it cant be even described. The fun is still there (fun never fades away, even if the game looks like Demon Attack for the Atari VCS 2600 or Out Run for Commodore 64), but the graphx look at best dated.
Conclusio : This is still one of the best games of all times and I played it til the second CD on the DC version, but graphxwise almost any PS2 game looks better in the meantime. And every review mentioned that they felt betrayed cause Sega did a 1:1 port of Shenmue 2.
Bout the GameCube and XBox : No way that the XBox with its slower hardware (no the XBox never were faster then the GameCube, folks. please stop repeating stup*d Microsoft propaganda. The PS2 CPU offers any amazing 6.8 GFLOP. The XBox CPU 2.4 GFLOP and the GC CPU 4 GFLOP. The second prob is, that the XBox doesnt have a single (!) byte of dedicated VRAM. That slows down gaming to a useless point., cause every single component (CPU, GPU, SPU, etc.) have to access the same main RAM usin the same 8 GB/sec bandwidth bus. Thats the most sh*tty console desing which were ever build). So the XBox has a large technological disadvantage compared with the other consoles,which is only improved by its faster GPU (125 million polygons/sec vs. the 75 million polygons/sec for the PS2. there are no such figures for the GC, cause Nintendo only relased figures with all effects one, which are completely useless, cause it always depends how smart you are using the GPU and CPU on how many polygons with effects and textures on you get out of a console). But a little faster GPU wont help at all, if the CPU is dead slow (no, MHz doesnt mean anything when you compare different architectures. Thats why a Dual 1.25 GHz G4 Mac is appr. 2 times faster then a 2.5 GHz P4 Dell) and even more important the main RAM bus is blocked by the other components (thats why this design already failed at the Amiga - it were called Chip RAM there, which were an area of RAM which were avail for all custom components including the CPU).
Back to pratical stuff : Look at Resident Evil Zero for the GC. There is nothing which comes even close this game graphxwise. Look at Starfox Adventure. Folks, this is grass he is walking on. Not this aweful looking flat stuff which is offered by the disappointing Halo (which looked like some average PS2 game when it were released), this is living, moving grass you are walking through where you could see every single piece of grass. Or look at the fur of the fox. this fur with every single hair recognizeable. Not as texture, but instead as objects. Never seen before such realistic objects in any real time rendered game before. And then look at Mario Sunshine. This is THE water game. Even real water looks like some graphic bug compared with that one ;) . And this are just the best examples.
Then there is the PS2. There you got as THE graphical highlight Onimusha 2. Its the second best looking game (they used anim textures for water. And thos textures werent repeated at some small areas. No the texture covered the whole river and the anim lasts at least 10-15 secs and you hardly even seen the start and the end) directly after Resident Evil Zero for GC. Then you have there Devil May Cry II and Final Fantasy X with amazing graphx and perfect gameplay (Devil May Cry II looked fine at the city, but the water effects would have even looked bad on the PSX ;) ). And there is the best game ever released for any platform avail for the PS2 : Ico (thats not meant graphic wise (which is really nice too) but as an overall rating. Never played such an perfect game since the days of Commodore 64 (the times when you were faced almost daily with some new game idea ;) )and its kewl to see, that after the boring 90s there is at least one game again which is THE legend).
So IMHO its simple : Get the PS2, cause every game out there is avail for the PS2 and most games only for the PS2. And get the GameCube for the best graphx and for the few games which arent released for the PS2, cause first and second party titles for the GameCube are never ported.
And the XBox : Hope there ever will be a game released for it. Didnt seen anything worth mentioned for it beside Dino Crisis 3 which were delayed and delayed.
BTW Comparing most times the water effects ;) , cause real water is real looking water is hard to simulate. There you see the advantages and disadvantages of Graphic hardware the best way IMHO.

[Zork]

JackAxe, and BTW Metroid Prime is a must have. Its looking amazing and it sems to have a lot of new features for a FPS. Cant wait to get it.
But take a look at Starfox Adventure. Its one of the few games which deserves gameplay wise (its fine that Nintendo were responsible for the storyline, cause Rare never were the storyline king out there ;) ) and graphxwise a 100 % rating. I were completely surprised bout it.
And take a look at the waves at Mario Sunshine ;) .

[JackAxe]

Love Mario Sunshine, but Metroid is still my favorite to date on the GameCube that I've played. I haven't had a chance to try StarFox, looks amazing though. I buy my game sparingly, not because of money but because of time. I already spend to much time on this site.:) Once I finish Metroid Prime Zelda should be out, then i will take on StarFox.

Here's a tidbit about the XBox. They are not all equal. My friends Xbox slows down quite a bit during the last escape scence of Halo. Where as it runs fine on my other friends Xboxes.

It's funny you mention the DP 1.25 compared to P4 2.5 Dell. My home machine is the DP 1.25. A few months ago before I had my Powerbook I was asked to do some work for a client in-house. I was put on a new Dell 2.5 with only Photoshop, Flash and Illustrator. All apps were freshly installed with the latest updates. Trying to copy a somewhat simple path to Illustrator from Photoshop, somehthing any low-end G3 could handle with 1k of ram =), threw the PC into a thinking loop for almost 15 minutes. Finally the PC spit the path out, but it corrupted.

<]=)

[Zork]

JackAxe, the prob with the XBox is its heating problem (its the only console out there with a overheat message which avoids playin after a certain time - thats no surprise at all, cause the XBox had the worst overall hardware design of all consoles out there. At no other console the power unit is that bad aparted from the rest of the console. And no other console have the "hot" P3 and the "hot" GeForce 3 as components, which both are made for huge PC cases and not small and bad ventilated console cases). Thats most likely the reason why Halo stutters on your friends XBox and on the others arent (which are perhaps not placed on some carpent or built into some rag (both are airing killers :) ). And Microsoft even made the heating problem worse by offering a more silent version of the XBox which means less moving air inside the XBox and even more of a heating problem.
Bout the GC : Thats my prob too. I really liked Mario Sunshine (amazing graphx and some real funny jumpnrun) and already played appr. 25 % of the game, but then I got Starfox Adventures and now Mario Sunshine is layin around, cause I played til now "only" the first half of Starfox Adventure. And Metroid Prime should be released within the next few weeks here (im here at europe :( ), so I have to hurry with Starfox Adventure, cause otherwise this one wouldnt be finished either ;) .

[JackAxe]

2 more weeks, for Metroid, it's worth the wait. An amazing game, I put it in my top ten. I was originally waiting for Zelda before buying a GC. But after playing it on a friends Cube, I picked up my copy and GameCube a few weeks later. I won't be able to play MP again until I complete my current work. Major deadline on Friday.

Funny you said XBOX an small in the same sentance. Is that some kind of oxymoron.:D

Be warned, after picking up Metroid it sucked me in completley. I had to push the GC into the corner because it was too tempting. It is one of the reasons I've been working 12+ hour days for the past month.


My GeForce 4 TI in my Mac is a foot long. Creates a nice wall between my PCI slots and drive bays.

<]=)

[HentaiDSL]

Hi all, I'm new here and in fact I joined because of this discussion :-)
I wanted to add something that may have been missed, but has anyone noticed that even series 60 devices (Nokia 7650, E) seem to have more
visually impressive games? Not necessarily better games, but better looking ones. eg Geopod, Doom, a proper gameboy emulator
(I think?), Resistance, Police Chase etc
What sort of chipsets are they running that makes them better? And as far as I understand it, isn't the resolution
on these things much less than 160x160 (let alone 320x320 or 320x480)?
Anyway, I have a PEG SJ30 and this is my very first post so take it easy on me :)

[Zork]

HentaiDSL, they arent looking better. but there are some surprising titles avail for the Nokia (like this Wipeout clone for example). And they are released for the Nokia instead of anything else, cause most people out there usin mobile phones and PDAs are still more like a niche.
And its always fine havin 2 gaming devices with you ;) . For example hearing MP3 on the Clie and playin QSoccer on the SonyEricson T300 (thats the one with the Mophun engine).

[JackAxe]

I downloaded a screen shot of the gameboy emulation, the rez on the GB was 160x144 which is correct, so I think it's safe to say that the 7650 use a176x208 screen. Not to shabby for a phone.

<]=)

[iebnn]

Originally posted by Zork
Unregistered, yep, ive seen the screenshots and its nice that you really think that Sim city 2000 could be played witha tiny 320 * 240 screen. Its impossible. Thats why Sim City for Palm is way better playable. and it would be even more if there ever will be a HiRes or HiRes+ version.
Then its nice that you realized that there is a HiRes version of Master Thief (beside that you still posted the LoRews pictures :) ). Isnt that a little way better graphxwise then a dead old game running at .... what is it agan ? .... yep, its 320 * 240 (not even the Atari VCS 2600 durin the late 70s had such a f*ckin horrible resolution :) ).


Few points.

1. You say that Sim City for Palm is superior to SC2k for PPC because PPC only has a res of 320x240, but then you say it would be even nicer if Palm had hires or hires+ sim city. That means that you're comparing a 160x160 game to a 320x240 game and saying that the 160x160 game wins because of resolution. I don't se ethe logic

2. He has shown hires images of MT3d. And quake at 320x240 is still a lot prettier than MT3D at 320x320

3. Quake may be a "dead old game", but that's only by PC standards. If the MT3D game were ported to PC, it would be an even "deader old game." Quake is a LOT better of a game than MT3D so far, but does not work so well on a PDA yet. So yes, MT3D is superior (speed in quake is awful, etc), but your claims are still false.

4. Rayman may have taken a year to come out on PPC, but what the hell does that matter now? "Hmm, I want a PDA that can play rayman... I guess I'll go with Palm, because even though it has worse graphics in the rayman game, it came out a year earlier." Aren't we talking about which has better games right NOW? Guess not: in that case, MT3D is crap because it came out more than a year after quake for PPC, even though MT3D works better as a FPS for a PDA.

[Zork]

iebnn. Sim City were made for 300*240 (good, old LoRes not interlaced Amiga resolution). With 160 * 160 and the fact that most GUI elements are hidden at menus you come close to the original gaming experience. At Sim City 2000 for PPC you have 320 * 240 for a game directly ported w/o too much PDA screen adaption from the 640 * 480 original. So you get the point why Sim City 2000 is simply useless for the PPC.
2+3) He compared directly LoRes MT3D with Quake III at his screenshots. The HiRes picture were shown at some direct comparision with other games. And Quake looks worse the MT3D with only one exception (that Quake were the first game with enemies built of textured vectors instead of the usual sprites). MT3D runs with 320 * 320 and you really realize that advantage with the amazing screen of the Tungsten and the Clie. So if Quake ever will be ported usefully, it would be for HiRes+ devices. And such devices run only the Palm OS.
4) Thats really essential, aue it shows were the market is at home. Look at example for the XBox. They have now more then a year after the PS2 also Metal Gear Solid 2. but who gives a damn bout it anymore ? This game is old, its hype is gone, theres no interest in it at all anymore. So being the first one which offers a gaming experience (or simply a game title ;) ) is most essential at all. Rayman for PDA were kewl, when it were released for the Palm. Now its not even interesting to newcomers anymore, cause they want to see new games for there PDA (like every other gamer).
So having Rayman one year later with enhanced graphx is a complete waste of time market wise.
ps Again : Which net (EFNet ?) are you using for the irc server you are mentioning ?

[MaryJoS]

I've kind of followed the discussion on here and have to say I am surprised that some people would try to argue that games on the Palm are as good (or better!) than the PPC. Sorry, but there is a big gap there. Only now are we seeing Palm devices that can match the PPCs for processor speed and screen resolution. I think the fact that only Clies have virtual graffiti still is yet another thing holding the platfom back. Developers just aren't likely to write games that only run on Sonys. So I don't see it changing any time soon.

Of course, I really don't care all that much. I don't care if the PPC games are better as long as I still have GOOD games on my Palm. If I cared most about games, I'd not being using a PDA in any case. Productivity is what I need most and I get that better with the Palm OS than PPC. Games are just icing on the cake.

[Zork]

MaryJos, your statement is interesting, but it would get even more interesting if you have any facts which shows that your opinion isnt just opinion ;) .
And no, the screen resolution of the Clies doesnt match PPC. They simply exceeds them by offering twice the resolution. And with the ARM used inside the Tungsten and Clie Palm OS devices are already way faster then PPCs (cause Windows never were idented as PDA OS and therefor wastes awesome CPU ressources w/o any real purpose).
And bout releasing new games : The Tungsten supporting HiRes now too and Sony is the fastest expanding PDA company during 2002. It even sold more PDAs then the largest PPC brand iPaq. So developing just HiRes games (means 320 * 320 and therefor supported by most of todays used Palm OS devices) spends way more income then developing games for the dying PPC platform.

[MaryJoS]

First, I didn't say the screen resolution matches 1 for 1 with the PPC, but that now they *can*. Meaning they are as good or better than, but in the past were not. That's a fact.

Second, "most of todays used Palm OS devices" are NOT high res. I doubt even most of those that are sold are. The Zire was the most popular Palm OS device recently and that sure isn't high res. Even color is a fairly new thing for Palms, compared to how long PPCs have had it. Regardless of the resolution, the Tungsten screen is way smaller than the PPC (or the Sony NR/NX series) and that is what is holding it back as a game platform. Sony as a whole may have outsold the Ipaqs, but I doubt the NR/NXs did. They are still a small part of the market. Just give me an example of a game that has been written only for the Sony. Oops, nope, there are none. Until Palm makes the 320x480 a standard part of the API, I don't see Palms overtaking PPC as the best gaming platform.

[hansschmucker]

Problem is there are actually two discsussions or three going on here:

1.Which plattform has the best pda games (clear symbols, large text, small footprint...) PALM

2.Which plattform has most potential for games (Processor, screen, overal architcture) Both

3.Which plattform has currently the best gfx. PPC

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Zork
iebnn. Sim City were made for 300*240 (good, old LoRes not interlaced Amiga resolution). With 160 * 160 and the fact that most GUI elements are hidden at menus you come close to the original gaming experience. At Sim City 2000 for PPC you have 320 * 240 for a game directly ported w/o too much PDA screen adaption from the 640 * 480 original. So you get the point why Sim City 2000 is simply useless for the PPC.


The GUI elements can be hidden in PPC too, thus you are comparing 160X160 to 320X240....your argument is terribly flawed.

[iebnn]

Originally posted by Zork
And Quake looks worse the MT3D with only one exception (that Quake were the first game with enemies built of textured vectors instead of the usual sprites).

...

4) Thats really essential, aue it shows were the market is at home. Look at example for the XBox. They have now more then a year after the PS2 also Metal Gear Solid 2. but who gives a damn bout it anymore ? This game is old, its hype is gone, theres no interest in it at all anymore. So being the first one which offers a gaming experience (or simply a game title ;) ) is most essential at all. Rayman for PDA were kewl, when it were released for the Palm. Now its not even interesting to newcomers anymore, cause they want to see new games for there PDA (like every other gamer).
So having Rayman one year later with enhanced graphx is a complete waste of time market wise.
ps Again : Which net (EFNet ?) are you using for the irc server you are mentioning ?

1. I don't see how you can say that MT3D is prettier than Quake. Quake has polygonal enemies (a MAJOR advantage), polygonal levels (not just floor, walls, ceiling, doors, ramps, and the occasional fountain or such area), polygonal projectiles, lots of particle effects, the enemies fall into many pieces (gibs) when they die, more realistic lighting (shaded), etc etc etc

4. When Rayman came out for Palm, it was already old. Most games that come out for Palm are based on older games. A PPC user isn't going to be bored of a game when it comes out on PPC just because it's already been on palm for a year before. Also, rayman seems to be the only major title that was released so much later on the PPC.

As for the network.. I say it right in the signature.

[hansschmucker]

Uhmm. Quake has no level shading. It has lightmaps which is something totally different as it only requires simple blending instead of a raytracer. My old M105 could have done it. (I know because I love Quake and spend at least 2 hours a day editing various stuff)

[hansschmucker]

Also it will soon be integrated into MT if we can belief the developers

[iebnn]

Sorry, got that one thing wrong. But it's still something MT3D doesn't have yet (and the light can flicker etc in quake, dunno if MT3D will implement this)

[GoldenTiger]

Re:Simcity

Are you guys forgetting POCKET CITY for the Palm, freeware software which is SimCity @ 320x320 resolution? It's GREAT... much better than Simcity 2k on the PPC (which is horrible) and Simcity on the Palm (which is good, but not OS5 compatible). It works on OS5, as well :D!

[iebnn]

How is it much better than SC2K? It's just a clone of the original Sim City, with just as bad graphics.

[GoldenTiger]

iebnn, I've seen a few games made for the Clie only... look on Palmgear and google... some major ones are Clie-only or Tungsten only.

[iebnn]

I don't know what you're talking about? I never said there weren't any...

[hansschmucker]

You guys don't listen:

SC2k has the better gfx (that's typical for PPC)

SC POS is a better game for a pda since it given a better overview on a tiny screen amd has a small footprint.


SC2k was just never meant to run on a screen with 1/4 of its original resolution

Didn't know about PocketCity. Plays great!


iebnn:
"How is it much better than SC2K? It's just a clone of the original Sim City, with just as bad graphics."

This shows pretty well what you prefer. gfx. that's fine. But I rather play a good game then staring at a nice picture

[iebnn]

hansschmucker: I don't prefer just graphics. SC2k added more than just graphics to the original. But... graphics play a big part in the SC games, as it's supposed to make you feel like you're controlling a real city. Still, SC2k was a better game than Sim City. I haven't tried it on the ppc though.

[JackAxe]

Arrrrrrrgh. Ok enough about this Sim City blah. The original Sim Ciy for DOS was able to be played at different resolutions:

Hercules Monochrome
EGA Hi-Res Monochrome (640x350 2 Color)
VGA/MCGA Hi-Res Monochrome (640x480 2 Color)
EGA Hi-Res Color (640x350 16 Color)
VGA/MCGA Lo-Res Color (320x200 256 Color)
VGA Hi-Res Color (640x480 16 Color)

Out of all of these, the MCGA version looked the best because of the amount of colors displayed.

Sim City on the PALM is 160x160, the same is true for Pocket City. You can play both of these games at 320x320 which makes the menu cleaner, but it does not give the game any more play area. The same 160x160 game has only been doubled to fill a 320x320 screen. So the little blocky buildings are now bigger blocky buildings.

The Pocket PC version of SimCity has won the graphics category hands down, because it truly utilizes 320x240. When a new version of Sim City and Pocket City are released that are truly designed for 320x320 or 320x480, then the graphics can be compared.

Just as an example, Patience is a 320x320 game, Solfree is not. Solfree can be played at 320x320, but it looks exactly as it does when the screen is set to 160x160 not including the menus.

<]=)

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by iebnn
hansschmucker: I don't prefer just graphics. SC2k added more than just graphics to the original. But... graphics play a big part in the SC games, as it's supposed to make you feel like you're controlling a real city. Still, SC2k was a better game than Sim City. I haven't tried it on the ppc though.

OK, I guess we just prefer a different kind of game. I just prefered SC1 over SC2k and even 3k. Just like I prefer The Settlers to TS2 and I just hate BlueByte for bringing RTS elements to TS3 and TS4

[hansschmucker]

To JackAxe the buildings ARE NOT bigger buildings in the Sony version of PC. They are smaller (20x19 blocks with menues enabled)

[mashoutposse]

All I hope is that the NX, NZ, and Garmin PDAs sell well enough for developers to justify creating 320x480 games that take full advantage of the larger screens and ARM processors. Especially the CLIEs, since they also have a large 4MB dynamic heap.

[JackAxe]

Where can I find this SONY version of PC? The only one I know about is the lo-rez version.

"So the little blocky buildings are now bigger blocky buildings"

This is what I meant by that comment;
At 160x160, the PIXELS are 1x1. At 320x320, they are 4x4. Hence, BIGGER BLOCKS.

<]=P

[iebnn]

mashoutposse we can't seem to access that 4mb heap.

[hansschmucker]

JackAxe: You mean 2x2=4 pixels. And no they are not. Just download the dev version at http://sourceforge.net/projects/pocketcity
and see for yourself. Oh and what I like about Palm Games too, I can edit almost every game in Constructor and sometimes I'm even able to make a game hi-res by replacing the bitmaps with dounle density bitmaps.

to iebnn:We ARE able to access the extended heap, but since programs that use it will only work for nx why would anybody use it?

[JackAxe]

Cool, downloaded it. =)

I meant 1x1. 1 pixel at 160x160 for every 4 at 320x320.

<]=)

[___]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
You guys don't listen:

SC2k has the better gfx (that's typical for PPC)

SC POS is a better game for a pda since it given a better overview on a tiny screen amd has a small footprint.


SC2k was just never meant to run on a screen with 1/4 of its original resolution

Didn't know about PocketCity. Plays great!


iebnn:
"How is it much better than SC2K? It's just a clone of the original Sim City, with just as bad graphics."

This shows pretty well what you prefer. gfx. that's fine. But I rather play a good game then staring at a nice picture

How is 320X240 one quarter of 640X800 when 320X320 is not much more. Simcity for Palm may give a LARGER overview, but CERTAINLY not BETTER.

[hansschmucker]

Hello!!! Brain where are you?!? All that I could find in your head is a sign "for sale".

a)There's no such thing as 640*800!
b)an NR/NX is 320*480
c)320*240 is a quarter of 640x480: 320/640=.5 ; 480/240=.5 ; .5*.5=.25
d)320*480=2*320*240
e)Believe me, it does give you a better overview.

[mashoutposse]

Originally posted by iebnn
mashoutposse we can't seem to access that 4mb heap.

Wow, really? Is it an issue that will likely be cleared up in the future?

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
Hello!!! Brain where are you?!? All that I could find in your head is a sign "for sale".

a)There's no such thing as 640*800!
b)an NR/NX is 320*480
c)320*240 is a quarter of 640x480: 320/640=.5 ; 480/240=.5 ; .5*.5=.25
d)320*480=2*320*240
e)Believe me, it does give you a better overview.

K but that is not what I mean. I meant, 320X320 don't give much difference at all. 320X320 is only 1/3 of 640X480 but PPCs give 1/4 of 640X480. I would rather have the better graphics and gameplay in a PPC than the reaaaaaaaaly crappy graphics in a POS(piece o sht) POS (palm os) with only 8% more pixels.

[hansschmucker]

This is going nowhere. If you stop posting, I'll stop posting and we will both be happy on our plattform. OK? May the force be with you and may Bush's head roll down some street. Bye

[iebnn]

More like a third more pixels, ___

[Zork]

MaryJoS, better resolution is better resolution. The screen size have to be small, cause that way the graphx look even better with better resolution (to be honest PPC graphx looks really like sh*t cause of the amazingly large pixels with the some distance between them which looks as horrible as old C64 games).
So the PPC is completely useless in the meantime as gaming platform cause it cant fit anymore today standards. And if you like to see games with HiRes+ support ... have fun at www.palmgear.com. There are dozens of them there, cause the Clie market already overtaken the PPC market. And with the Tungsten Palm is also now some company which offers resolution which overcomes the PPC completely. Like it or not, but PPC is dead for gaming, cause its too old and too slow.
And color where on Palm since years with Palm IIIc. With 4-6 times the battery life of every PPC then.

[Zork]

hansschmucker, Iplayed Mahjongg and Bejeweled on both platforms and the PPC doenst offer anymore the best graphx. To be honest it almost looked like goin back to a Palm IIIc when I played Bejweled not on my Clie, but instead Diamond Mine on the iPaq. this architecture simply is dead slow and too old for todays standard. And then this horrible screen with its huge pixels (as if LoRes never were gone ;) ).
So yes, there are still some games with fine use of textures on polygons, but beside thos games, which becoming standard on the Clie and Tungsten too thx to the faster PDA but with way better resolution, even this last area of PPCs is gone.
So if you talking bout PPC you talking bout history, cause since OS 5 its simply some old and useless platform for gaming.

[iebnn]

Oh boy, I'd better go get rid of this PPC and get a Clie because Mahjongg and Bejeweled look so much prettier

[hansschmucker]

Have you waited for me to say goodbye??? 4 posts in a matter of minutes, that's enough reason to stay =)


1. iebnn, I'll be happy to repost this:
b)an NR/NX is 320*480
c)320*240 is a quarter of 640x480: 320/640=.5 ; 480/240=.5 ; .5*.5=.25
d)320*480=2*320*240

2. Zork: Yep games like Mahjong look better on Clié, but the best version is the free Flash version which works great on my Clié

3. iebnn again: If puzzle games and such stuff is for you, then the Clié is certainly the best answer for your needs

[Zork]

JackAxe, sorry, but you are wrong. DLed now PC too and this is definetily THE Sim City for PDA (sorry, PPC folks, once again a game which is avail only for Palm ;) ).
The HiRes version is real HiRes and not pixel doubled as you feared. DL the Sony Version from sourceforge, not the Palm one ;) .
There are still some things you getting used too, like this stupid military stuff (Sim City is for smart people, so why using military there ?), the fact that other items cant remove trees (Sim City do so and this is some real time saver) and finally and most important : power lines cant cross water !!! This means that I have to either place a polution increasin power plant in the middle of the residential area or some life threadening nuclear power plant in the middle of the residential area. This is some real bug, so the PC folks really should add the Sim City feature that power lines could cross rivers too.
But beside thos small bugs, its simply amazing. SC 2K for PPC clearly showed how such a game is completely useles when you didnt fit it to a PDA screen (never seen a game which were that stupid ported and therefor completely useless- and Ive seen and played a lot of brain dead ports on many platforms). SC for Palm showed some potential, but with HiRes supported now by PC its even better then the real game. So another game avail only for Palm (and supporting HiRes) and not for PPC.

[Zork]

ppc-palm, that answer is easily given : Sim City were made for 320 * 200. So with the new HiRes version of SimCity (called PocketCity) this game plays even more perfect then the original.
Sim City 2K on the other side were decided by Maxis then to be one of the first games which were released for PC which runs only with 640 * 480 for a reason. Cause the 3D display needed way more place on screen and therefor the resolution had to increase to still show enough overview and therefor keep the game playable. This is gone with Sim City 2K for PPC. Not even is it a quarter of the original version and therefor already useless (according to the developers of Sim City 2K), but it isnt even full screen, cause this stup*d PPC stuff always shows GUI elements which are again directly ported (w/o the smallest purpose for the users !!!! ) from large screen. Thats one the main problems with PPC. Almost a third of screen space is wasted for nothing, cause MS doesnt understand that you couldnt port a OS and its GUI which is made for at least a 17 " screen to a screen with 320 * 240. Think bout how laughable Windows would have looked on a VGA display with 320 * 240 and you know how useless PPCs are.
The Palm OS GUI on the other side is made from the first moment on with the small PDA screen in mind and waste almost no screen at all with huge and useless GUI elements. So the Clie and Tungsten not only offers way better resolution and therefor more working space, but also offers more workin space cause of the only GUI made for PDA screen. So think bout playin either the real game or some port which Maxis states as completely unplayable.

[Zork]

iebnn, almost every new game out there supports today 320 * 320. And many even 480 * 320. Its really funny how PPC folks startin now defend *****n resolutions ;) . For some strange reason this werent true when Palm were the only Palm OS developer and the Palm OS resolution were only 160 *160 :) . Like it or not, but since Sony invented 320 * 320 to the PDa market and Palm released OS 5 theres no point for PPC anymore.
Or are you really goin to defend a platform with almost no software, way less performance, a battery life which already becomes legendary (and i dont mean that in a good way ;) ), a stability which is simply inexisting (I mainly install beta versions on the Clie, cause I want to see new stuff :) and I never ever crashed that hard that I lost my whole data. At the PPC this is simply impossible) and some screen resolution which were once amazing, but is today at best antique.
Sorry, iebnn, but PPC is gone. So your next PDA is either a Tungsten, or a Clie or a waste of money. Its that easy.

[JackAxe]

OK, I tinkered with the 320x320 version of Pocket City and it's nice. Now if I compare this "visually" to SimCity on the Pocket PC, I personally find SC much more appealing. I'm not refering to gameplay, just graphics. Which goes back to the initial comment, that SC on PPC looks better then SC on the PALM. I agree with this %100.

An appeal that PALM games have to me, is that %80 are old-school. More like the games I played in the eighties. Pocket PC games are more like the games from the early to mid ninties. Most of these games are ports, games I would probably never play on my PC or Macintosh because of time. But for being portable, it gives me a chance to play them again, even finish the ones I never completed.

One of my favorite games was RailRoad Tycoon, it would be great to see a good port like this on the PALM.

<]=)

[Zork]

JackAxe, they lookin kewl as screenshots, but as games they are simply not playable, cause Maxis themself clearly states that they are unplayable played at less then 640 * 480.
So the PPC version isnt a game at all and therefor the only real version which exists for PDAs is Pocket City. Its that easy.
If we talking bout slide shows with kewl graphx, but no other purpose, then Sim City 2K surely will win w/o any doubt. But this forum is called Clie Games, not Clie Slideshows ;) .
So forget bout PPC port of Windows games, cause the PPC is too old to play such games at all. Only chance that you ever will see Sim City 2K as game on a PDA is on the Clie with its 480 * 320 screen and with everything changed so that it fits on way smaller screen then the original version. Thats something where the Sim City 2K slideshow for PPC completely fails.
and bout Railroad Tycoon : Railroad Tycoon II were playable not even really on 800 * 600 ;) (and I really liked playin the game on the Mac. Even played it once over the net using GameRanger). So forget bout a PDA version which is everything else then just another slideshow.
But Railroad Tycoon I were done for the Amiga LoRes in mind and therefor fits perfectly to the Clie HiRes, Tungsten HiRes and Clie HiRes+ screens. PPC again is left out cause of its antique resolution.
And BTW Time is something you usally wont have with PDAs, cause you use them usually on the run. And at home im usually use the PS2 or GC for gaming. Only exception is the amazing ScummVM from chrilith, which makes it possible to play all the LucasArts adventures i didnt played through then.

[JackAxe]

When I was younger I grew up on PC's and most of my games were played at MCGA. So the lower rez didn't bother me that much. I played Railroad Tycoon at 320x200. =) The 320x480 screen was one of the reasons I bought a Clie'.

I'm happy to say that I have owned every Lucas graphic adventure and completed all of them accept Grim Fandango.:D The other month I picked up GF for 10 bucks and after some tinkering was able to get it to launch through Win2k. Now I just need to play it. Lucas Artst is by far my favorite game company. I just wish they would throw some other titles into the mix, the current saturation of Star Wars titles is kind of a let down.

I get a Fatal Alert when I exit Pocket City. Gives me a "HiRes.c, Line:167, Could not HRClose." Has anybody else experienced this?

<]=)

[hansschmucker]

Yes, but it doesn't bother me too much since the reset takes only about a second

[JackAxe]

Thanks, good to know it wasn't something wacky with my Clie'.

<]=)

[Zork]

JackAxe, have the same prob with PC. But its still not final.
Bout the VGA (!) games : They were DOS games. So its the same effort to port them to windows as to port them to Palm OS, cause neither of the APIs were used at them anyway ;) .
Played a lot LucasArts adventures. Played through The Dig (the best of them all), Full Throttle, Indian Jones and the last crusade and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis and Secret of Monkey Island and 50 % of Monkey Island 4.
Missed Monkey 2 and 3, Sam & Max, Maniac Mansion, Maniac Mansion-Day Of the Tentacle, Zak Mc Kracken and Grim Fandango. Monkey 3 and Grim Fandango cause they werent released for the Mac (beside that Monkey 3 worked poerfect with Virtual PC) and the rest cause i didnt had that much time. Thats why ScummVM is really useful and offers games which are really funny.

[hansschmucker]

Argh! You missed Sam and Max? Go get it right now, this instant, not a second later!

[Zork]

hansschmucker, it aint workin yet with ScummVM :( . chrilith has to solve the heap prob first.

[hansschmucker]

It's not working AGAIN!!! It used to work in 009beta

[Zork]

Not on the T625. It never worked there. Perhaps it worked on the ARM Clies, cause they have more heap. And chrilith is now working on some patch to work around the heap limit of the other Clies.

[hansschmucker]

Hm strange... I certainly got it to run with 009b. The only problem was that when I tried loading an 009savegame in 96 the usual error appeared after the next action. But it was playable on 009b

[hansschmucker]

Oh and BTW don't you think as well that ScummVM should run in Highcolor to avoid those strange Silk corruptions. All it would take is a little change to the startup code and instead of writing the palette index c to memory using it as a pointer and writing content of c* to memory

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by iebnn
More like a third more pixels, ___

Wrong again, do you your math. There is 8% more pixels. 30%? HAhahahaha

[mashoutposse]

Need.... Full.... Throttle....

[hansschmucker]

One last time

a)There's no such thing as 640*800!
b)an NR/NX is 320*480
c)320*240 is a quarter of 640x480: 320/640=.5 ; 480/240=.5 ; .5*.5=.25
d)320*480=2*320*240


if all PPC users were as ... cough ... as you are, then PPC would have died out the morning after it was started.

[JackAxe]

I played Monkey Island 3 with sound all the way through on my G3 333 with Virtual PC 2.1. I just had a hernia operation, so the the game caused me tremendous pain because of it's humor.:) The demo of Grim Fandango was playable under Virtual PC with my Proforamance video card I purchased a few years back.

My favorite series was Monkey Island. The Dig was the best of all the Lucas Art GAs made. It had the highest replay value., I played it through 3 times in one month. Monkey Island 2 which is one of my all time favorites, didn't have a good replay value like the Dig.

<]=)

[Zork]

hansschmuck, thos games were never made for 16 bit graphx. Therefor games wouldnt only be slower, cause 16 bit games are always slower then 8 bit games (twice the bytes to move), but the prob would also be, that you have to internally convert first from the internal 8 bit indexed value top the absolute 16 bit value.
So as fine as 16 bit graphx otherwise looks, as pointless would they be in this case.
BTW Which silk corruptions you meaning ? Didnt had any wrong color palette problems til now (except for one, which were then patched at the next beta anyway).

[hansschmucker]

Zork: No SilkScreen Palette Errors??? That actually doesn't even make sense as the system that scummvm uses is supposed to produce these errors (When a program rotates every color in the palette, there just HAVE to be errors). Of course assuming that you're on an NR or NX.

Anyway, the lookup is simple:
When you copy the buffer to screen you simply use the color(0-255) as a pointer to a specific adress or in other words
you write base+color*3 . base+color*3+1 . base+color*3+2
for every pixel to screen.

And of course it's slower, but it would allow for limited support of blitters (for example a bilinear resize would be simple) which need at least 16bit to operate properly

[hansschmucker]

Also this would actually speed up scenes with comple palette animations, for example the falling scene in dott

[hansschmucker]

BTW I know they were only build for 8bpp, because my computer at that time did not support 16bpp or 24bpp modes (This was before I got my Trident with 2.5MB RAM) =)

[___]

Wow I just played the Pocket City...and I must say it really really sux.

[hansschmucker]

Then return to your ppc forums and tell them. I'm certain they will be glad to hear that PPC is so much better then Palm, coz we are not!

[Zork]

hansschmucker, told a few dozen times that im usin a T625. And there arent any SilkScreen palette errors.
And bout 16 bit : That simply slows down. Wont matter if you build a hash table to reference from the 8 bit indexed to 16 bit colors. You still have to move twice the bytes and usin two cycles more per pixel (cause of the pointer reference).
And there is no need for Blitter at all. This is a PDA. And blitters werent even used on Windows or Macs til we reached a few 100 MHz.
So dont forget : You usin a PDA, not a PC. MS already didnt got this simply fact and therefor lost at the PDA arena. Dont make the same mistake.

[hansschmucker]

=) Don't worry, I won't. I'm just overacting a little with my new NX70v, my last pda was a 625 (615 in the US) as well. And SilkScreen Errors are pretty unlikely to happen on that, but I'm just unable to get the idea of a bilinear smothed SamnMax out of my head! Keep in mind that right now only only about 40% of my screen area shows ScummVM. I wonder if that's good adjustment =(

Side Note: Memory access has always been the strong side of Cliés, 4.x as well as 5.x models. So why not use it?

[hansschmucker]

Just BUMPing my way through the CliéSource-forums =)