Petition for Sony's Release of the Sound API

[Sonnybobiche]

Since we obviously know that Sony employees browse these forums from time to time (they found out about Decuma, didn't they?), we can assume they'll read this thread, asking them to release their proprietary Audio API to the public.
As far as I can tell, they aren't making any money from it, so what is the point of crippling Sony handheld devices in that way? It only leads to angry customers and bad reviews. Not being able to use wonderful applications like Wave Editors and MP3 Players of our choosing has gone on long enough. Please add your thoughts to this petition if you wish for Sony to stop thinking about the Cost/Benefit ratio and start thinking about giving something back to its loyal customers.

[dark79]

Can we add the camera API to that as well? Though I guess for me the whole thing is moot since I've gone and replaced my NX with a T3. But this is one of the big reasons why I did it, so I thought I'd post anyway =)

[Prozak]

I wonder what the reason behind not releasing them is.

[himitsu]

Sony's so called sound API (if there is such a thing) is made before Palm had any sound if you remembered, back in the days of N700, Palm was beeping like a frog, while Sonys devices were singing songs.
Its a proprietary program linked inside AudioPlayer and their media DSP chip that even developers dont like to use.

Now that OS5 has sound, even Sony has also dumped this system and used the common API as in the UX50.

They didnt keep anything from you, it may even be a limitation of the hardware itself. There are 3rd party audio players, and DAs... but they all make use of the AudioPlayer program behind them... if they want to, those developers could follow Sony is not stopping them.

Call it the curse of the early adopters, the price you pay for being in the leading edge, there is sure to be something better and more stable later. Another example.
UX50 had a crappy rotation feature for its landscape orientation... (it had none in fact). The T3 has it. Will Sony ever release a patch that would make the UX50 work like the T3? I dont think so, I dont think they can either.
But there sure is going to be something like UX50-2 or UX60 with the same rotation feature as T3 coming up later.

[loverboydre16]

Well all I know is sony is losing a hell of a lot of customers to other pda companys................so any sony representatives out there reading this, I think you all should wise up before every leaves sony in the dust.(and this is not a joke , this is happening already)

i will be giving myself 2 months before i stop buying the clie forever.
If sony(you representatives) who are reading this dont stop with this bulls@#t secrecy I will stop telling people to buy a clie and tell them to buy some thing else............I made twenty people buy the clie and now they want to upgrade, but now i will tell them to get the T3.

I will too if you guys dont buck up.

I love sony products, so dont let me change my mind.

[CliePet]

General comment: Please see this thread for my opinion on this matter.

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28578&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
[first page or so, then it gets way off topic]

This is a clear case where we have a petition requested by a Sony employee for the camera API (from developers)
The response has been underwhelming !-<

[The camera API is higher priority than the sound API]

----
Specific questions:
> ...release their proprietary Audio API to the public....

What in particular do you want to do ?

You *can* play back most format WAV files using a poorly documented API.
There is limited record functionality for recording (I'm working on a helper class)

What you can't do is full blown streaming audio playback or arbitrary recording (ie. no full featured MP3/OGG players)

If you want the full blown SndStream APIs, then I recommend buying a UX or T3.

[ddsmith]

Sony isn't going to release their APIs in my opinion. Palm has caught Sony and I'm sure Sony will respond with a really cool unit. Then we will probably suffer through programs working with one and not the other for a while. Then OS6 will be released and programs will have to be updated again.

[nickster87]

Petitions do nothing for Sony. They are just too propriatory.

[SiouxChief]

CliePet...Your post concerning the Camera API was the reason I joined the ClieDeveloper forum. Hopefully this post will get a few more people to join.

If you're a developer and use the clie, then go here:
http://www.cliedeveloper.com/

Sign up and vote for the Camera API!

[SiouxChief]

Oh yeah...the URL for the clie developer forums is here:

https://www.cliedeveloper.com/ClieDev/Login?destination=Forum

[wrbonfield]

you got my vote. i want aeroplayer for clie!

[Tixx]

I would love that as what do they have to lose now? They made the UX like the Palms. Not like people are going to buy new hardware just because of this one issue.

[Perk]

Would love to be able to effectively use Mapopolis Navigator's voice prompts on my NX70

[r0b456]

It'll never happen, guys.

The Camera API you might have a chance. But that is also doubtful.


A major missconception with NX users is that the NX series Clie does not have a CF driver, or has a driver that needs to be hacked. The truth is that any NX73 or NX80, and also any NX70 and NX60 with the MS Pro update, have a Full CF driver. The slot is 100% recognized by the operating system. Take your CF and load any application that is Multi-VFS (Virtual File System) aware, such as ZLauncher or the latest build of Picsel Viewer. You can browse and search the CF card just as if it were a Memory Stick. These applications are not magic -- that's just how it works.

The reason why you cannot use your CF card in things like Audio Player, Camera, and Movie Player are because these are Sony's apps that they have purposely blocked the CF slot out. They did this because they knew that if you could use a CF memory card for Everything that you need a MS for, 90% of the people out there would buy the far cheaper CF cards rather than MS. Sony has a vested interest in MS and will do whatever it takes to ensure it succeeds. It would not impress Sony's investors if Sony themselves did not fully adopt their own proprietary storage media.

So here is the source of your specific problem. Since the NX series devices have a Full CF driver, what happens when Sony releases their Audio and Camera API's and 3rd party developers start making their own Audio and Movie programs, which Don't have the CF blocked? It's Multimedia City, and the Compact Flash card has been elected Mayor. With the release of even just the Audio API, it will mean that people will be able to use a CF card for Listening to MP3's and Playing (not recording) Movies using 3rd party apps. I think that about 99% of Memory Stick use is for these 2 purposes. Even if you still needed a MS for Recording movies and taking pictures, people would buy like a 128mb Memory Stick and then go out and buy a 1gb CF card for their movies and MP3's. So the Audio API is the LAST API that Sony will ever release. The UX50 only includes the Palm Standard Audio API because ... surprise ... no CF slot. Sony has no risk of losing MS sales because even with the standard Audio API, UX50 owners have no choice but to buy a MS for their MP3's.

The Camera API, as I said above, has a slightly better chance of being released. Here is what would happen if they released the Camera API: With the Camera API, developers would be able to write a new Camera app. For still pictures, this isn't so bad. But what about video's that you record with your NX camera? These videos use the MQV format -- just like using Image Converter to convert MPEG movies to MQV. So if a 3rd party program was written that allowed you to Record and Play your recorded MQV movies, and did not block the CF slot, then you could also then use that program to view movies that you've converted to MQV using image converter. And thus you would have people rushing out and buying 1gb CF cards for movies just like above, even without giving out the audio API because it's MQV format is already recognized.

Basically, what you would get is a limited Camera app. But one hell of an MQV player, thus threatening Sony's Memory Stick sales.



What it basically comes down to is that you are suffering Sony's proprietary lock-out because your NX has a CF slot. If it didn't, you wouldn't have those proprietary API's (like the UX50). However, now that the UX50 doesn't have that lockout, I haven't really been hearing people praising Jesus over it. And why is that? Because the UX50 doesn't have a CF slot. Isn't that a little backwards? Not really. Really, most people want Sony to ease up not because they think that the Palm audio players are so much better than the Sony Audio player, because they're really nothing much. They want Sony to ease up so they can use that Monster 2gb CF card and have hours of MP3's and tons of video clips without having to sell their First Born to buy 2 1gb MS cards. So it's simply a matter of the two sides trying to find a happy middle. Sony comes off as rigid and, well, Jerky because they refuse to give in to demands that are, in all honesty, irrational. If you were Sony, and in their possition, you can't tell us you wouldn't be doing the same thing. Basically, Sony's mistake was that they used a standardized slot for something that was going to be proprietary (the WiFi card). When they saw how people like Euroware were trying to develop a CF driver as fast as possible, they then realized that measures had to be taken to prevent total disaster.

It is my new belief that in the future, Sony will not be releasing any more handhelds with CF slots. They will be MS only, Dual Memory Stick devices, or they will have MS and built in WiFi/Bluetooth. No more WiFi expansion slots. The reason for this is, as someone said above, Sony is losing customers over this. What Sony is realizing is that none of this would have been an issue if there had never been a CF slot. If they had simply given you a MS slot, and then some proprietary socket for popping in a WiFi card, no one would care. We wouldn't be having this discussion. But because it's there, people feel like they are being cheated by not being able to use it. Even though Sony never promised anyone that they would be able to.


This is why I cannot understand people starting threads like "Just sold my NX70 for a Tungsten T3 -- so long proprietary Sony!!!!1". I simply sit there for a minute or two and wonder how many days it will take them to realize that they don't have the CF hacking issue on the T3 because there is no CF slot. That in their lack of understanding and their Frustration, they gave up a unit that had a MS slot (which actually has 1gb cards available, unlike SD) AND a CF slot which did have Some use for storage media. Especially with Pelaca's UX50 hacks. AND had optional WiFi. Suddenly they have a T3 with a Single flaky SD slot (Don't take it personally -- every SD PDA I have owned had problems with the SD cards/slots), and no WiFI option in the immediate future. And God help them when they do, because the T3 sucks down batteries like it's Juicy Juice. So then you start to question yourself as to why you got the T3. You remind yourself of the Hi-Res+ display, but then remember that the NX had that as well. You then remind yourself of the Landscape feature -- in the apps that support it. Right now, the web browser makes it all worth while. But then you remember that there is no WiFi, only a BT cell phone connection, and the 14.4 connection makes web browsing so painful, that viewing the pages in Widescreen isn't worth the extra 2 minutes it takes the page to load vs viewing it in portrait mode on an NX in Netfront.

I'm not a T3 hater. I just see so many people jumping ship for the wrong reasons. All it will do is create a huge T3 backlash a month from now when people realize that for the same $400, they could have gotten a Zodiac 2, which does all the things the T3 does, but has dual expansion slots and 4 times the RAM. Plus it plays sweet games. The T3 is not a bad device. It's certainly a step up for PalmOne. But sadly, they have been lagging behind just about every other Palm OS licensee for several years. The real truth, guys, is that the T3 is not leaps and bounds beyond your Clie. To be honest, I don't think you're going to see such a thing for another year, after OS 6 is out. And even then ....




-Rob

[MarianoSF]

I'm also tired of trying to figure out if to turn left or right when following Mapopolis Navigator voice prompts. :mad:

I just want to clarify that Rob did not use any external keyboard to type the prior message ! :D

[r0b456]

Originally posted by MarianoSF
I just want to clarify that Rob did not use any external keyboard to type the prior message ! :D



I think I broke my Thumbs!!!

Damn NX80!!!



;)

[Marre]

I do agree with the CF issues .. however, as a small personal side comment .... I really do want my Bejeweled, Mummy Maze, etc. to have music!! :-( Btw, my NX80 refuses to run Sonic, Shining Force 2, and Shinobi - supposedly this is probably because of the sound as well. While I have no problem with the clie audioplayer or have no inspiration to use Ogg Vorbis (thus Aeroplayer), I do want a piece of that Wave Editor.

[yOyOYoo]

hahah

It is my belief that not many people at SONY usa really care what we think. It is up to SONY Japan, where the majority of units are developed and produced, to decide what features go into which clies.

And as a previous poster already wrote, sony is not going to release their sound APIs. They're simply just no longer going to use them. Look at the UX50, it using the standard palm API. look at the TJ35, it doesn't have the SONy Audioplayer installed, it's been removed in place of AEROPLAYER, and also supports the standard palm API.

Sony is no longer going to be proprietory with their sound api. It's just a damn shame that older generation clies (wow feels weird calling my NX80 "old") won't get these updates. Sony just doesn't update.

If anything we should all ***** and moan about how sony won't update their past devices! UX50 owners will probably never get a screen rotation program from landscape to portrait, while the next UX60 will have it built in.

That's sony for you. Love it or hate it. I personally hate it. But there's nothing out there that is better imo.

[tenderidol]

Well said...

[djmartin98]

Regarding the sound API, is this what folks are looking for? http://www.cliedeveloper.com/program/develop_tool/SoundLibrary.html

"
This new developer kit contains everything you need to support sounds on the CLIÉ handheld using the Yamaha processor. The kit contains Yamaha's Pa1Lib shared library reference and header file, Pa1Lib FAQs and sample code, and a utility to generate raw Yamaha ADPCM audio data. Be sure to download this kit today from the CLIÉ handheld developer web site.
"
This has been available since May 2003

[SiouxChief]

djmartin98...Thanks for the information! Do you know if the sound library you mention has support for recording through the clie microphone? I seem to remember people complaining that a recorder api wasn't available.

[CliePet]

> Regarding the sound API, is this what folks are looking for? ...

No, that's a start but far from sufficient.

What we have right now:
The Pa1Lib is good for very simple things (playing back tones and samples recorded at 4kHz or 8kHz, 4 bit ADPCM mono only)
Not good for playing back rich sounds, or stereo or much else.
It does not support voice recording.

That's all we have right now.
----
The middle ground that I know is possible is to:
+ Play back sounds (not streaming) in most WAVE formats, including CD quality and stereo.
+ Record voice memo (4 bit ADPCM) but at higher rates (like 11kHz, 22kHz or even 44kHz)
+ and interface to the camera...

I am working on a helper class to do these things.
This is still not sufficient to create a streaming MP3/OGG player
----
The pipe dream is to have full streaming audio functionality like the PalmOS 5.1 and later devices (like the UX has today)
I don't know if that is possible on the older devices.

[SiouxChief]

CliePet...You've mentioned your helper class on several occasions. Is this something that you intend to become open source? If it is, then perhaps you can create a project on SourceForge for it. I'll definitely sign up for it, and possibly contribute my time as well. If we open something like this up to the community at large, we'll have a much better chance of success.

[CliePet]

> CliePet...You've mentioned your helper class on several occasions....

Just building the hype ;->

Hopefully release something preliminary this weekend. BouncyCam (camera preview), MyCam (camera preview and capture for UX/NX70/NX73?) are working pretty well. MyRec (voice record) still has a few problems.

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29908

Better than open source, free source! Not even GPL. Not big enough to warrant SourceForge. Any enhancements can be emailed to me.
For example I'm punting the NZ90 camera (just *too* different from the others). Someone with a little extra work could get access to the internals of the monster camera.

---
Of course, we still need to keep pressuring Sony to give us something official and more detailed (in 10 minutes they can release something that is superior to what takes hours of experimentation to get working on our own)

[AcuraCL]

Originally posted by Sonnybobiche
...Please add your thoughts to this petition if you wish for Sony to stop thinking about the Cost/Benefit ratio and start thinking about giving something back to its loyal customers.

But they don't answer to their loyal customers. They answer to their shareholders.

And since most of the loyal customers have no idea what you're talking about, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for your petition to have an effect.

[tprime76]

Realistically I think the only way that we are going to get access to any of the proprietary features on the CLIE is going to be through people like CliePet and Mini (I know there are others, just using those two as an example)

I really don't want to sound like a naysayer, but the whole petitiion post thing keeps coming up (almost as much as the how old is the average <insert Clie Model> user poll) It is NEVER going to work. Why would Sony release the APIs to a now obsolete line of Clies (Yes, my NX70 is obsolete)??? What incentive do they have? Sony's entire process revolves around a product life of 6 months or so, then they want you to upgrade to the next model for incremental updates (NX60/70 to NX73/80). Releasing these APIs would only prolong the life of their old models which would prevent us from spending more money on the latest and greatest. We all knew this when we decided on Sony.

I still love my NX70, it does everything that I need and more. Would I love for Sony to release these APIs so a developer can create a prog that pushes my PDA to the limit? Hell yes, but it isn't going to happen. A better use of the effort would be to beta test CliePet's BouncyCam or MyCam or whatever his next experiment is. He has proven that when he sets his mind on getting to the bottom of Sony's stuff, it usually works.

[nickster87]

Well said, tprime76!!:)

[CopyCat]

This thread is pretty old, but I just read it now and r0b deserves an high five or something:p

I must say, r0b456...AWESOME POST:)

I like reading posts like the one your wrote, thanks!:D

[kp*]

Has anyone mentioned the API for the enhanced IR? I want to control my @&#^# cable box!!!

[stronggeek]

Originally posted by CopyCat
This thread is pretty old, but I just read it now and r0b deserves an high five or something:p

I must say, r0b456...AWESOME POST:)

I like reading posts like the one your wrote, thanks!:D

I agree CopyCat.

He's written a few posts like this one and they're logical, concise and just plain accurate to say the least.