When will we get integrated wi-fi in a low-cost clie?

[jumpyg]

I have one of the first Clies that came on the market, and I can't wait to upgrade. However, I'm really hoping for a $200-$300 Clie with integrated wi-fi. I don't care about Bluetooth, and don't really need a camera (but it would be nice). Also want it to be in a case similar to the T600 series. I really want integrated, not an add-on.

Why hasn't a Clie like this appeared yet? Is it just that wi-fi hasn't been miniaturized to that small of a size yet? Is it too demanding of the battery? Seems like there's been tons of choices in Bluetooth PDAs, but very little in the way of wi-fi--very frustrating.

[Chinoz]

As long as Sony still hungers for titanic profit margins, we consumers are never gonna get that kind of stuff. ;)

[jumpyg]

Still, the same goes for Palm. I can pick up a T|T w/Bluetooth for $200 or so. Why not the same thing, but substitute Wi-Fi instead? Wi-Fi is arguably much more successful than Bluetooth, but that hasn't been the case when it comes to handhelds.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by jumpyg
Still, the same goes for Palm. I can pick up a T|T w/Bluetooth for $200 or so. Why not the same thing, but substitute Wi-Fi instead? Wi-Fi is arguably much more successful than Bluetooth, but that hasn't been the case when it comes to handhelds.

BT is cheaper then WiFi to produce. Same reason why keyboards and mice use BT not WiFi.

Erik

[jumpyg]

Cheaper to produce in small packages? As far as home networking goes, Wi-Fi is dirt cheat now. Access points go for $40. A BT AP is at least $100.

That still doesn't explain why no wi-fi in a lower end model. Sony just released the wi-fi UX model, but it has tons of other stuff to jack up the price. All I want is a simple color Clie with wi-fi. I'm sure they can do that for $200-$300. Maybe most people just want BT, I don't know.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by jumpyg
I have one of the first Clies that came on the market, and I can't wait to upgrade. However, I'm really hoping for a $200-$300 Clie with integrated wi-fi. I don't care about Bluetooth, and don't really need a camera (but it would be nice). Also want it to be in a case similar to the T600 series. I really want integrated, not an add-on.

Why hasn't a Clie like this appeared yet? Is it just that wi-fi hasn't been miniaturized to that small of a size yet? Is it too demanding of the battery? Seems like there's been tons of choices in Bluetooth PDAs, but very little in the way of wi-fi--very frustrating.
No no, we did get it. You just didn't recognize it.

It's in the $250 UX50, which is just a Zire71 competitor in having the high-res screen, MP3 and camera, undercutting the Z71 list price by $50. Only trouble is it's only available with a few mandatory options...

WiFi - cheap mandatory option at $100
Bluetooth - mandatory option at $50
Special processor for multimedia and superior battery life, cheap mandatory option at $150
Extra RAM including internal 29MB drive, cheap mandatory option at $75
Fold-away ergonomic thumbboard - mandatory option at $50, far less than equivalent add-ons
Extra pixels, 320x480 instead of Z71's 320x320, cheap mandatory option at $50

This gives the UX50 with all the mandatory options a list price of $725 loaded, but remember the base price was under that of the Z71 ($250 vs $300.) Sony then undercut the Zire 71 even more by dropping another $25 off the price!

Okay, that's not quite how it works, but my point is that the UX50 isn't expensive. It's value-packed and only available fully-loaded, but mine sure seems like a great bargain.

As for a $300 WiFi Clie, it will probably come eventually, but right now WiFi is a very expensive feature. It requires more processing, more power for transmission and therefore a more expensive battery, more programmatic support, currently far more expensive support chips, and more testing/certification than Bluetooth. And it's less common at the consumer level. Give it another 15 months or so, it'll probably happen. But Dell and Toshiba will probably be there first on the PPC side.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by jumpyg
Cheaper to produce in small packages? As far as home networking goes, Wi-Fi is dirt cheat now. Access points go for $40. A BT AP is at least $100. Decent access points for WiFi don't go for $40, while Bluetooth adapters start at $15. And that omits factors that don't impact access point/adapter sales for Windows desktops... such as power requirements (WiFi needs a lot more, and hence bigger batteries), software support (Windows already has it, but Bluetooth is designed for embedding, WiFi wasn't), and certifications.

I use WiFi a lot more than Bluetooth with my UX; I'm not anti WiFi. But it is more expensive for pretty obvious reasons. Take a look at the raw component costs - the ICs that provide one or the other. I just checked DigiKey - the tiny antennae used for WiFi cost more than an entire Bluetooth dongle! Compare the price of the Atmel AT76C504 without support chips etc to the end price of so much Bluetooth stuff.

[rob_squared]

You're confused. BT dongles are around $25 (maybe). A bluetooth access point is a bluetooth adapter that plugs directly into an ethernet cable to allow network use costs around $80 or even more.

As for WiFi routers. Yes, you can get a brand new D-Link access point for $39.99 when you know where to look.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by rob_squared
You're confused. BT dongles are around $25 (maybe). A bluetooth access point is a bluetooth adapter that plugs directly into an ethernet cable to allow network use costs around $80 or even more.

As for WiFi routers. Yes, you can get a brand new D-Link access point for $39.99 when you know where to look. I'm not confused. I stated "dongle", not "access point" for a reason.

You're the confused one if you think comparing costs of a device to convert between bluetooth to ethernet is relevant to the thread topic (which was the cost of embedding WiFi vs the cost of embedding Bluetooth), and even more confused if you think the high price of said access points supports any position other than Sonys. Stop and think for a moment... BT dongles are cheap, WiFi dongles cost more, any anything that crosses protocols still more. Regardless of the precise prices, we do seem to agree on these points. My point was that ethernet and WiFi take more processing and support; that price-pyramid you pointed out supports this. So what, pray tell, is your reasoning behing those price differences?

[n2ifp]

Anyone have a recommendation for a BT access point that I could plug into an Ethernet port on my Linksys router?

Oh yeah, one that doesn't cost more than a T3.;)

[hucsman]

Quick questions:
If I have a router, can I plug the BT AP to it, or do I have to plug the ethernet jack directly into the AP ? (I really need ethernet going directly into the router).
Is there a BT AP with an integrated router?

[c2h2]

the point probably is
wi-fi is more energy consuming... all BT devices are low power operated
this is also obvious if u look at the range they are capable to reach.

with a pocket-sized portable device like clie, the batteries couldnt be made very strong, if they wanna keep portable and good looking... it is easier to have wi-fi, but u must compromise ur already very short battery life time...

[s_n_m]

Originally posted by TechnoCat

No no, we did get it. You just didn't recognize it.

It's in the $250 UX50, which is just a Zire71 competitor in having the high-res screen, MP3 and camera, undercutting the Z71 list price by $50. Only trouble is it's only available with a few mandatory options...

WiFi - cheap mandatory option at $100
Bluetooth - mandatory option at $50
Special processor for multimedia and superior battery life, cheap mandatory option at $150
Extra RAM including internal 29MB drive, cheap mandatory option at $75
Fold-away ergonomic thumbboard - mandatory option at $50, far less than equivalent add-ons
Extra pixels, 320x480 instead of Z71's 320x320, cheap mandatory option at $50

This gives the UX50 with all the mandatory options a list price of $725 loaded, but remember the base price was under that of the Z71 ($250 vs $300.) Sony then undercut the Zire 71 even more by dropping another $25 off the price!

Okay, that's not quite how it works, but my point is that the UX50 isn't expensive. It's value-packed and only available fully-loaded, but mine sure seems like a great bargain.

As for a $300 WiFi Clie, it will probably come eventually, but right now WiFi is a very expensive feature. It requires more processing, more power for transmission and therefore a more expensive battery, more programmatic support, currently far more expensive support chips, and more testing/certification than Bluetooth. And it's less common at the consumer level. Give it another 15 months or so, it'll probably happen. But Dell and Toshiba will probably be there first on the PPC side.

I agree with you.

One day maybe options won't be mandatory?

Like the thing can be assembled in a factory to your specs.

[rob_squared]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
I'm not confused. I stated "dongle", not "access point" for a reason.

You're the confused one if you think comparing costs of a device to convert between bluetooth to ethernet is relevant to the thread topic (which was the cost of embedding WiFi vs the cost of embedding Bluetooth), and even more confused if you think the high price of said access points supports any position other than Sonys. Stop and think for a moment... BT dongles are cheap, WiFi dongles cost more, any anything that crosses protocols still more. Regardless of the precise prices, we do seem to agree on these points. My point was that ethernet and WiFi take more processing and support; that price-pyramid you pointed out supports this. So what, pray tell, is your reasoning behing those price differences?

Aren't we prissy today.

[SiliGoose]

Cheap Wi-fi for handhelds must be coming within the next 12 months. Evidence exists in Sony's inclusion of Wi-fi into the PSP.