asking Sony

[pruss]

Has anyone else actually tried to ask Sony for permission to make a copy of the NX73 driver and use it? I asked. I got a vague response:

"Thank you for contacting SONY Online Support.

"If there are no updates listed on your model, then there are none currently available through SONY for use on your CLIE Handheld. Please bookmark the support site and visit it periodically for any new releases.

"SONY has not tested the update (referred by you) on NX60/NX70 CLIE Handhelds. We also do not support, or recommend, any updates other than the one designed specifically for your CLIE. Although the update may work on your Handheld, issues with, or resulting from the use of such updates will not be supported.

"Thank you for the opportunity to be of assistance.

"The Sony Internet Support Team
"Online Support and Services Center
"CPPW
"Kavitha"

I asked them on Friday if that meant that I could use it as long as I didn't ask for customer support on it, and have not yet received a response.

Maybe someone should actually point-blank ask for permission to post the files?

[lostether]

After reading Sony's response it is obvious to me they simply don't care what people do with it as long as they don't expect any support. I'm not sure what you're looking for - I doubt you are going to get Sony's blessing or anything, but they certainly aren't going to try and stop it either. I would feel free to use it with a clear conscience.

[n2ifp]

I agree, my reservation is what other developers think about it, and how it reflects upon ClieSource.

[CliePet]

> Has anyone else actually tried to ask Sony for permission to make a copy of the NX73 driver and use it?

Having been down a very similar road before, let me throw in another $.02:

IMHO: you are asking them to either (1) give away their copyright material (very very unlikely), or (2) to put the NX73 driver on their official upgrade site (also unlikely)

I don't see any middle ground.

----

The way it works right now is:

Sony doesn't give you permission to freely copy ANY of their drivers.

Some drivers are posted on the Sony website (for example the WL100 driver or the MSPro updates). That doesn't mean they are in the public domain.

If you download it from *their* website, *and* agree to the terms of the EULA, *and* use it only in the allowed models, then *you* can use it on your CLIE.

This is a very limited licensing of the software (software is not owned, it is licensed)

----

Everything else is not (explicitly) permitted.

For example, you are *not* permitted to:
- mirror the driver on your own website
- repackage the driver (eg: like the CF Utility)
- download a copy of the driver and give it to a friend
- tweek the driver for any other uses
- download it to a memory stick and give that stick to a friend who doesn't have an internet connection

That's doesn't mean it is illegal, just not explicitly permitted.

------
#soapbox
If you are working outside what is permitted, there is no distinction between the NX73 CF driver and the WL100 WiFi driver - they are both copyrighted material that you don't have the right to distibute.

To elaborate: Posting or mailing *any* Sony driver or software is not permitted by the CLIE EULA (based on my interpretation, and general copyright law). Whether it is the WL100 WiFi driver or the new NX73 CF driver makes no difference.

IMHO: This is certainly a gray area, since people are rarely so black-and-white. These "not explicitly permitted activities" happen all the time on this BBS.

#end soapbox
----
So back to the question: "will sony give us permission?"

You are either asking them to do something they have never done before (AFAIK), or you are asking them to treat the NX73 CF driver like they do other driver upgrades (post it on their website and provide a license agreement for its use in the NX70).

Either are very unlikely IMHO

=======
Re: whether Sony cares or not

My guess is they aren't losing a lot of sleep over it.

When it starts to matter to them, they will add technical counter-measures and/or get their lawyers involved to stop some larger problem. At that point they may use EULA and copyright issues as one of the legal tools to further their ultimate goals, whatever they may be.

FWIW: I think they are probably spending more time on the next model, rather than losing sleep over a year old model.

(all IMHO)

[n2ifp]

Sounds good to me!

[Eddy]

next model sounds nice. :)

[OcellNuri]

I wouldn't give the response you got any value. It is a canned response you will get if you are asking about any type of driver. I doubt that the person who got your e-mail comprehended that you were asking about loading the CF drivers from the NX73 onto your NX70. They seem to think you were asking about an update. Then they just hit a couple keystrokes and those two paragraphs are pulled out of a database and pasted into the reply.

[cliener]

This rings like a deja vu from the first request list of the cf driver from sony. They didn't respond with anything other than the canned response.
My advice is use whatever driver at your own risk. Cliepet are you going to support the patched driver? Eruware gives support to their driver.
Hmm, let's see what else, you could read back and see where to get the sony driver, unless that thread was removed.
As far as gray area, we all know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. So I guess make your excuses and do what you will. The sony patched driver I suggest you read all the back threads and make prints so you know what the ins and outs are. The Eruware, definitely read the manual first, and then if it getting you through call support. Whichever you choose, or both, make backups so you don't lose your data.

[lostether]

Originally posted by cliener
My advice is use whatever driver at your own risk. Cliepet are you going to support the patched driver? Eruware gives support to their driver.


If you are the level of user that will need support, you shouldn't be using the Sony CF driver anyway.

And why would Cliepet give support to the patched Sony CF driver? I, for one, just appreciate what he has done for us already, and appreciate the work of Glacialeye.

[cliener]

Was just a question friend. I don't agree that everyone that will use the cfslot knows everything there is to know. I, appreciate support on anything that I buy that I don't fully understand. I guess, on that note, if you aren't Cliepet, you can't answer.

[CliePet]

> Cliepet are you going to support the patched driver?

It depends on what you mean by 'support'.
It isn't my driver. It is not a real product.

I have shared information, most of which I discovered within 1 hour of installing the NX73 driver (and have milked it for a long time;-)

If people have sane questions, I usually try to answer them within my abilities - and not just on CF topics.

---
FWIW: I'm not planning on tweeking the NX73 CF driver anymore or making it easier to use for others - it is not a real product it is a hack for experienced CLIE owners to use as they see fit.

I think I've milked a 3 bit patch far enough.

BTW: other people including Glacialeye and pelaca are addressing the features and install/ease of use issues. More power to them!

-------
> As far as gray area, we all know the difference between what is right and what is wrong.

Well that is certainly debatable in our society of today ;->
Certainly questionable when it comes to copyright law and fair use.

> So I guess make your excuses and do what you will.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I am making no excuses.

My point [on the soap box] is that some people are complaining about non-authorized copies of the NX73 driver while not complaining about non-authorized copies of (for example) the WL100 driver.

I am an equal opportunity complainer

========
> ... Eruware gives support to their driver...

Of course.

An easy to use, more powerful and/or better supported product usually rises to the top.

This is not a 'battle of CF' drivers. EruWare is still the only product available.

----
lostether wrote:
> If you are the level of user that will need support, you shouldn't be using the Sony CF driver anyway.

Sounds good to me.

[Eddy]

CliePet's 3 -bit was nice, IMHO, & I'm quite happy with it, being able to switch/swap between Eruware's CF Driver & the NX73 Driver. :)

[Eddy]

Thanks CliePet! :D

[cykalan]

Originally posted by Eddy
CliePet's 3 -bit was nice, IMHO, & I'm quite happy with it, being able to switch/swap between Eruware's CF Driver & the NX73 Driver. :)

no question one of the most amazing hack i have ever seen. ;)

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by CliePet
My point [on the soap box] is that some people are complaining about non-authorized copies of the NX73 driver while not complaining about non-authorized copies of (for example) the WL100 driver.

I am an equal opportunity complainer

I am a bit puzzled about your comments concerning the WL100 driver :confused:

Since it is an update that's downloadable from Sony support site for the WL100/110 802.11b WiFi card, why wouldn't it be authorized?

I apologize if I missed something...maybe?

Thanks!

 

[srodsimpson]

I doubt that we in this community will have much impact in "ruffling the feathers" of Sony unless someone does something really big like allowing the NX70 to use the entire ROM of the NX73. (Remember the unofficial N710 upgrades?).

It's debatable whether or not we even impacted Sony with the CF driver petition, but it's also great to know that, when we are faced with hurdles like the CF usage, someone or some group within the ClieSource "family" steps up to save the day.

"Clie Source Rules!"

...Rod

[CliePet]

> Since it is an update that's downloadable from Sony support site for the WL100/110 802.11b WiFi card, why wouldn't it be authorized?

Check out the EULA that comes with most downloads, and my earlier diatribe listing some common practices that are not (explicitly) permitted. The terms of use of many EULAs are quite strict and not transferrable.

For example "YOU AGREE NOT TO TRANSFER, LICENSE OR DISCLOSE THE PROGRAM, THE ACCOMPANYING ONLINE DOCUMENTATION OR ANY PROGRAM YOU DEVELOP FROM THEM, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, TO ANY THIRD PARTY EXCEPT UPON SONY'S PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL"

----
"Available on the web" is not the same as "in the public domain"

BTW: Some people use this as moral justification. "it is on their website so I can do anything I want with it".
Regardless it is not permitted by the EULA, and the material remains copyrighted.

=========
So I use the examples of:
(1) emailing the WL100 driver to a friend and
(2) downloading an NX73 CF driver from a Russian website (for your own personal use)

and let's throw in:
(1b) hosting un-authorized versions of the WL100 driver
(2b) hosting un-authorized versions of the NX73 CF driver
(3) hosting un-authorized versions of Decuma

From a "what is permitted" point of view they are *ALL* on the same level - none are explicitly permitted.

---
However, everyone draws their own personal moral line differently. This is a moral decision more than a legal one.

It appears that on this BBS: (1), (1b), (2) are ok. (2b) is marginally ok. But (3) crosses the line.

[note this is my interpretation based on reading various threads, not an official policy]

One may argue that (1) and (1b) are *MORE* morally objectionable -- since you agreeing to something and are immediately doing the exact opposite.

It is all GRAY -- a personal moral decision of what you feel is right or wrong. None are explicitly permitted by the copyright owner.

----
I am ignoring whether you believe EULAs are binding or legal or enforcable (or not).

Final point: I probably shouldn't be mentioning the details of EULAs when so few people read them and even fewer follow them...

(sound of horse being beaten to death...-)

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by cliener
Cliepet are you going to support the patched driver? Eruware gives support to their driver.
It's free, don't complain!

[n2ifp]

CliePet,

First of all, Thanks for the reply!

Your right, it is a moral issue with most. An example, like the WL100 driver is something that if the user has the card, then that user I believe should be entitled to it. Even though technically, it's a violation of terms, but most don't care. The CF driver is something that unless one has the NX73/80, who should be entitled to it, but not to the users of the NX60/70 or the NZ90, where the software initially didn't come with it. Now like most, I think we derive some pleasure, whether we realize it or not, to get one up on Sony. Things like Picsel Viewer or Decuma, is not available for sale outside of the Japanese language. Consequently, I don't feel guilty if someone sends me a copy to play around with. I certainly have spent my fair share for software, and if I could purchase it, I would! Unfortunately Sony won't let me. Additionally, I won't buy a new Clie just to get that new piece of software alone. I too have spent a small fortune on Sony products, I have the credit card receipts to prove it, LOL!

Like most, I can't be bothered reading the EULA, as I am not a lawyer, I can't profess to completely understand it. I just know that if I started making illegal copies of the Windows OS, Mr. Gates and company are going to be after my butt :)!

I basically try to be a good person, but I am not perfect. Like most, our moral values may vary slightly from person to person.

Initially I was a little upset, when the NX73/80 drivers were being passed around. It had been a little more personal with me as I was one of the few involved with EruWare, since day one. With all the previous clamor about CF drivers, the wishes of many finally came true. With the attitudes of some of the posters, I, myself would have told them to stuff it, if it were up to me :). I would like to see EruWare survive and see what other goodies they'll be able to offer us in the future. I have since calmed down and realized it was not as big of a disaster as I thought it would be.

This post is not intended for debate, just the sharing my thoughts ;)

Thanks!

[Unregistered]

"This post is not intended for debate, just the sharing my thoughts"

you're dreaming, right? LOL.

[Eddy]

Originally posted by n2ift
I basically try to be a good person, but I am not perfect. Like most, our moral values may vary slightly from person to person.:)
ditto.

Oh.... did you call me Chinaman? :(
just kidding :D, but I had a feeling people would think that perhaps a teenager or early 20's is behind the PC. I wish that could be true, unfortunately not. :(
Others often get that feeling since I'm simply....... a toy'r'us kid! refusing grow up, trying to hang on to my youth.....

[hansschmucker]

No time for reading through this thread right now (might do so later), but I think you should safe this Email as a judge could easily see it as a point of evidence that you've tried to find out about your current legal situation and that Sony denied you the information that it was actually illegal to copy the 73 CF driver!

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by Eddy

ditto.

Oh.... did you call me Chinaman? :(
just kidding :D, but I had a feeling people would think that perhaps a teenager or early 20's is behind the PC. I wish that could be true, unfortunately not. :(
Others often get that feeling since I'm simply....... a toy'r'us kid! refusing grow up, trying to hang on to my youth.....

My youth is long gone, I am just trying to hang on... period ;)!

[Eddy]

Originally posted by n2ifp
My youth is long gone, I am just trying to hang on... period:)!
well.. I can't believe I'll be hitting the "30" soon.... :(

[hansschmucker]

Hey Eddy: 1299 vs 1294, you're catching up fast!

[Eddy]

Originally posted by Hansschmucker
Hey Eddy: 1299 vs 1294, you're catching up fast!
:D
So how've you been with your exam there?
don't mean to rush, but anxiously waiting for your V2 tweak for IC. :p

[cliener]

When I posted to this thread I was merely making a comment. My intent was not to stir any conscience, judge or make anyone feel guilty. Everyone here knows what the EULA is and implies (if it went to court whoever could pay the lawyers more would probably win any argument to how it is meant as opposed to worded). My initial question was nothing more than a question... so don't take it as more or less than that. Sheesh guys, I thought we were all adults here and Cliesource was an open forum for comments on Sony related items etc. I am sorry if I got the wrong thread. Oh, before I go and finish my holiday...I MEANT what I said about backups.

[Eddy]

originally posted by cliener
Sheesh guys, I thought we were all adults here and Cliesource was an open forum for comments on Sony related items etc. I am sorry if I got the wrong thread.
I'd assume the same that we're all adults here, & am open for comments! :D

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by Eddy

well.. I can't believe I'll be hitting the "30" soon.... :(

Aw heck, your just a young pup yet... :D

[pelaca]

Originally posted by n2ifp
CliePet,

First of all, Thanks for the reply!

Your right, it is a moral issue with most

You and CliePet are right... but exists a very old debate about the restiction of the knowledge... the law must to be flexible for preserve the justice... some times the moral and inmoral acts are very close and depends on the point of view... but you are loosing the most important think... is Sony loosing money with that?

[cliener]

I don't think the question is "Is Sony losing money on this?" but "Does Sony think they are losing money on this?" So the thread loops around to "Has anyone asked Sony?"

[pelaca]

Originally posted by cliener
I don't think the question is "Is Sony losing money on this?" but "Does Sony think they are losing money on this?" So the thread loops around to "Has anyone asked Sony?"

I agree the question is "Does Sony think they are losing money on this?"...

[CliePet]

> I agree the question is "Does Sony think they are losing money on this?"...

I disagree with the agreement on the question ;->

Even if Sony is making money by having happy customers buying more hardware and software, they sometime will threaten to sue you to retain their control.

Just because you have good intentions and think you are helping them to make more money -- it doesn't give you any legal cover. In fact the copyright owner is the only one who has the right to decide the use of their copyrighted work - whether it makes money or loses money.

For example, many bands are refusing to sell their copyrighted songs individually for 99c a pop on iTunes. That is their right as a copyright holder.

[pelaca]

Originally posted by CliePet
> I agree the question is "Does Sony think they are losing money on this?"...

I disagree with the agreement on the question ;->

Even if Sony is making money by having happy customers buying more hardware and software, they sometime will threaten to sue you to retain their control.

Just because you have good intentions and think you are helping them to make more money -- it doesn't give you any legal cover. In fact the copyright owner is the only one who has the right to decide the use of their copyrighted work - whether it makes money or loses money.

For example, many bands are refusing to sell their copyrighted songs individually for 99c a pop on iTunes. That is their right as a copyright holder.

You are right too... because depends on the point of view of Sony...

[n2ifp]

I suppose it boils down to this, for Sony it's a legal issue, for many users it's a moral issue. I was speaking from a user's point of view. Some are going to do whatever they can get away with, right, wrong, or indifferent. The question I ask myself is, do I feel good about doing this. Of course that doesn't make it right or legal. I have yet to meet the perfect person, although some may think they are, ha-ha!

[pruss]

1. The EULA is not the question here. Copyright is the question. And unless Sony explicitly allows it, making a copy of the NX73 driver, except one copy as a backup (and PERHAPS some other copying for the personal use of the NX73 owner, but not for installation on another device), will almost certainly be illegal in the U.S.

2. As to whether Sony is losing money, that is legally only partially relevant. I assume it would determine the size of the damages in court. But it's still illegal even if they don't make money on it. They developed the driver. It's their property. They can do what they want with it. (You wouldn't want someone to post your private diary on the Internet, even if you weren't losing any money on it. You own the copyright in your diary, if you have one, and it's up to you who gets to make copies. You could let a select number of friends read it, for free, but then you might well be upset if they give copies away.)

3. That said, Sony might conceivably lose some money from the copying. For instance, the CF driver, since it's faster than Eruware's, could be a good reason for someone to buy the NX73 rather than the discontinued, and hence cheaper, NX70V.

4. We really should ask Sony. It would be nice customer relations of them to tell us: "Go ahead, use it, but don't ask for support." The problem is to find the person to ask. Book and journal publishers have a Permissions Department where one asks for permission to copy. I wouldn't have any idea what Sony's equivalent would be. If someone tells me, I will be happy to write them a nice letter on University letterhead. (My NX70V is University property.)

[n2ifp]

Let sleeping dogs lie...

;)

[lostether]

Originally posted by n2ifp
Let sleeping dogs lie...

;)

I agree

Sony most likely would rather just ignore the whole issue, but if forced to reply would probably have to say no to protect their future rights. I think there are some people who will only be happy if Sony gives a negative response.

Hey, in 6 months everyone will have a new Clie anyway, hehe

[pelaca]

Originally posted by n2ifp
Let sleeping dogs lie...

;)

Yes... please... leave my head over my neck...
I don't want to see the bottom of the basket for the rest of my life.
;)

[Unregistered]

hmmm, isn't "lie" right in there with "cheat" ? insulting to dogs

[CliePet]

> 1. The EULA is not the question here. Copyright is the question.

They are intimately tied together.

The EULA is the legal agreement between you and the copyright holder which gives you the right to use their software [software is not bought, it is licensed]

All other points have been addressed earlier in this thread (ie. why it is unlikely they will give permission).

[Unregistered]

Well... Sony doesn't own the copyright. Why do you ask Sony? Do you really need to ask anyone to know if what you do is legal or not? You don't own the copyright. Who gave you the right to copy it? Decuma, a small Swedish startup company, owns the copyright. What you do is illegal and it is not supportive to Decuma nor to the Clie community.

[pelaca]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Well... Sony doesn't own the copyright. Why do you ask Sony? Do you really need to ask anyone to know if what you do is legal or not? You don't own the copyright. Who gave you the right to copy it? Decuma, a small Swedish startup company, owns the copyright. What you do is illegal and it is not supportive to Decuma nor to the Clie community.

Sorry but you are wrong... Sony own this copyright... see the About of CF Utility...

[Unregistered]

Yes, I was wrong... or should I say out of topic. They spoke about Decuma earlier in the thread and I was refering to the Decuma copyright.