Up yours, Xerox!!! :P

[xyeta]

The more I think about this Jot replacing Graffiti thing...the more torqued off I get!

I happen to LIKE graffiti. I am getting pretty good at it, and I have NO INTEREST in learning Jot. The mere fact that it requires two strokes for some letters means input will be slower. Not to mention an entirely NEW learning curve for us, the loyal users.

I have always felt that the complaints about Graffiti were unwarranted.

True, we could blame the guy who first 'poached' the idea without getting it licensed, but it kind of seems like allowing Microsoft to patent the keyboard.

I blame Xerox for taking it away from us. I think there could have been a solution that kept the USER'S best interests in mind. Anybody heard of arbitration? I blame attorney and corporate greed for this situation. Am I wrong?

I am contemplating a personal boycott of Xerox products. Granted, I don't use many, but I can be certain to avoid their paper products.

I don't listen to Metalica either, because they incited such a brouhaha over file sharing. OK, that was an easy boycott since the music sucks anyway, but my principle remains the same.

Who do YOU blame for our loss of Graffiti?

Do you care?

[Molerat]

I was under the impression that Graffiti would be a pseudo-subset of Jot. That is, that most of Graffiti would be recognized by Jot. In any case, Graffiti ain't dead yet.

Now, I think you're off-base on your Xerox rant. There's a difference between "habit" and "user's best interest." Graffiti is not the best hand-writing recognition system. A better rant, in my opinion, would be "what the hell took so long?"

And Metallica? Well, you're wrong...on both counts. Free-love died with the sixties, bud. So there!

[arinvolvo]

I too, am a fan of grafitti...it aint that hard...it takes all of a day to learn it well....As for Metalica, It is a shame that they have caused such a stink...but I cant pull myself away from their music....It is great, timeless, legendary stuff.....and Im not even a huge fan...I own a couple CDs....but I can appreciate their work...It is excellent.

BTW...the S&M CD is the greatest of all time....The live songs are even better than the original recordings.

[xyeta]

Griff, for your edification:

Palm Adopts New Handwriting Software

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e/palm_graffiti

By RACHEL KONRAD, AP Business Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - Palm Inc. will dump its homegrown handwriting software for a system similar to one used on Microsoft handhelds, potentially easing a long-simmering legal dispute and making the machines easier for beginners.

Palm announced Monday that devices shipped later this year will come with a new handwriting recognition system, called "Graffiti 2 powered by Jot."

The Sunnyvale, Calif.-based company developed the new system with programmers at Redwood Shores-based Communication Intelligence Corp.

The original Graffiti, still used on the majority of Palm handhelds, requires users to learn an alphabet developed specifically for entering data into a small screen. To write a "t," a user must write an upside-down "L." An "f" is the mirror image of that upside-down "L."

The system, although efficient in its use of one-stroke letters, often infuriates new users.

The new system will use two or more strokes for some letters, similar to natural handwriting. For example, "t" will be two crossbar strokes.

"It's more natural, especially for someone who's never picked up a handheld," said Michael Higashi, a director of marketing at PalmSource Inc., which builds Palm's operating system. "That's good because we see this market in its young state, and ... by removing that barrier, people can be immediately productive on a Palm handheld."

Microsoft also uses a handwriting system created by Communication Intelligence Corp. for its PocketPC handhelds.

Graffiti 2 may get Palm out of a six-year legal battle. Xerox sued Palm in 1997, claiming Palm derived Graffiti from a Xerox patent for computerized handwriting. A federal judge dismissed the case, but Xerox won a reversal. A federal appeals court heard the case Jan. 6 but has not yet issued a ruling.

The lawsuit prompted Palm to seek alternative handwriting systems, but the company picked Graffiti 2 because people in focus groups liked it more than Palm's original, Palm spokeswoman Marlene Somsak said.

[Pyogenes]

If Graffiti 2 allows me to create replacement strokes for letters (thus allowing me to recreate the original Graffiti without breaking patent laws), then I'll be happy.

[arinvolvo]

Pyogenes....does your name have anything to do with streptococcus? Or is it just a convenient coincidence?

[Pyogenes]

Let's just say I got a degree in microbiology. :D

[nevarDeath]

Originally posted by Molerat
Graffiti is not the best hand-writing recognition system

Just wanted to clarify, in case this debate goes further, that Grafitti is not handwriting recognition, it only recognizes certain strokes, not people's handwriting.

[Joel]

I tried Jot a long time ago and found out that it's not that hard to learn (I've been using Grafitti since my USRobotics Pilot days) The only turn off was the price. So I'd welcome Grafitti2. Besides, think of it as something new to explore in your future handheld. ;)

[cbulock]

Originally posted by nevarDeath


Just wanted to clarify, in case this debate goes further, that Grafitti is not handwriting recognition, it only recognizes certain strokes, not people's handwriting.

Thats a good point. The whole idea of Grafitti is that you sacrifise having to make your alphabet simpler and in the end you get better recognision and quicker data entry. Jot may be more natural to people's handwriting, but Grafitti is more natural for a computer to understand.

[Joel]

Good points. I guess that's why I'm now using Fitaly rather than grafitti-type input systems... subconsciously, I want faster input speed!

[rob_squared]

Graffiti=good
Jot=bad

I like the fact that I can do something that normal people find "hard".

Its exactly the same reason why I hate "internet appliances" that work with television sets. It allows stupid people to get on the net.

[arinvolvo]

Pyogenes...I too have a degree in integrative and organismal biology...not exactly micro....but I learned, and am still learning quite a bit about it. I used to teach an undergrad micro lab..that was a lot of fun....nothing beats gram staining. ;)

[geekzilla]

Sorry - I did it, it was all my fault. I just thought Xerox could use the cash ;)

Actually, I love Grafiti and am not happy about the Jot situation.

As for file sharing - come on, you have to admit that it is wrong. If you really support the artists you have to admit that they deserve compensation for their work (do you go to work each day for free?).

Back to Grafiti/Jot - I remember seeing - I think it was a link off of the Sonystyle site (?) - a company that made a Grafiti replacement that did actual learning of whatever letters you input. It was almost programmable - where if you always made a letter a certain way, you could tell it what letter it was equal to. Anyone remember seeing that?

[Mr. Thompson]

Sad situation. After three years of Graffiti use, I often find myself using it on paper when I am in a hurry. Hopefully we will be able to continue to use it with a license for a fee on future devices. ARE YOU LISTENING PALM?

[arinvolvo]

Geekzilla...to my understanding, TealScript will recognize whatever character you want it to...you can program it to recognize different strokes for different letters.

Now if only there where an app which would recognize certain strokes as a substitute for commonly used words such as "the" and "as".

[jmg_NX21]

Eh, I learned graffiti from the ORIGINAL Palm Pilot... I will miss it and pfft to any one who 'could' not learn it and found it too hard.

AM darn good at it too.

Fitaly is intriguing BUT... I have no real need for it...

Jot? Oh well, I ain't upgrading MY NX anytime soon...

[jomoco5]

Originally posted by rob_squared
I like the fact that I can do something that normal people find "hard".

Its exactly the same reason why I hate "internet appliances" that work with television sets. It allows stupid people to get on the net.

Yeah. What he said.

[nyrath]

Originally posted by rob_squared
Its exactly the same reason why I hate "internet appliances" that work with television sets. It allows stupid people to get on the net.
Heh. When I first got on the net back in the late 1980's, one had to have some geek blood (or know somebody who did) in order to get net access.

Then one fine day AOL appeared, providing easy net access to everybody. The old-timers reacted negatively to this, grumbling about "there goes the neighborhood" and dumping on anybody who had the gumption to post on usenet with an address that ended in "@aol.com" .

What was amusing is that the AOLer did exactly the same thing when WebTV came out. ;)

[Eric S]

Originally posted by arinvolvo
Geekzilla...to my understanding, TealScript will recognize whatever character you want it to...you can program it to recognize different strokes for different letters.

Now if only there where an app which would recognize certain strokes as a substitute for commonly used words such as "the" and "as".

Odd that you mention TealScript in the first paragraph, and wish for TealScript in the second. :)

TealScript does exactly that. In fact, I've got mine set up so that if i stroke an across-then-down T, then put the bump on the bottom from the h, it translates to "the " (including the space). An a-stroke run together with an n-stroke translates to "and "

TealScript also let me set up the Alpha and Numeric areas totally seperate. While a quick tap is the punctuation shift in the Alpha area, it's a period in the numeric area. The normal space-stroke makes a dash if done in the numeric area. The a-stroke in the numeric area translates to ^ and the x-stroke translates to *. All of these are my customizations, they do not come standard, BTW. Basically, I had the numeric side optimized for phone number and calculator data entry.

In case you haven't guessed, I am REALLY looking forward to TealScript being OS5-ready. It's one of about three things I miss having moved from my HandEra 330 to my NX.

[xyeta]

Yeah, I like TalScript too. It is a good graffiti enhancement.

That's why I am so ticked off about the who graffiti/jot episode... I finally got stuff working the way I like!

[kstuart]

Xerox PARC invented just about everything we use today - and that's not much of an exagerration.

At a very minimum, the mouse, most everything in a sound card, and the graphical windowing OS used by both Jobs and Gates, were invented by Xerox PARC.

I can personally verify this because I saw all of it there in the mid-70's.

Since their net worth would be about 10 times that of Microsoft had they enforced their intellectual property rights, it's absurd to blame them now for doing so.

[Baloo]

Originally posted by kstuart
Since their net worth would be about 10 times that of Microsoft had they enforced their intellectual property rights, it's absurd to blame them now for doing so.

It has reached urban legend proportions. Xerox did not create WIndows nor did Microsoft steal GUI from them. It's much like Sony did not steal TV from Zenith, nor Chevy the car from Ford. While they may have been the first to use a Graphic based interface, the differences were significant enough that they could not have prevailed in a suit.

Build a better mouse trap.....

[phil ng]

i know a person who was on the team who invented the xerox mouse :)

[rolando]

Originally posted by Baloo


It has reached urban legend proportions. Xerox did not create WIndows nor did Microsoft steal GUI from them. It's much like Sony did not steal TV from Zenith, nor Chevy the car from Ford. While they may have been the first to use a Graphic based interface, the differences were significant enough that they could not have prevailed in a suit.

Build a better mouse trap.....

Perhaps Jot is the better mousetrap with those significant differences that you encourage.

I believe Pocket PC uses the Grafitti-esque "Block Recognizer" by paying Xerox for use of the technology. Palm probably could have done the same...

Rolando

[madkins007]

Jot ain't too bad. I learned it when my daughter was using a PDA that used jot, and I actually liked it a lot. I thought it offered more flexibility than Grafitti, which has a few counter-intuitive bits to it AND it seems as if everyone has some letters that for whatever reason are difficult for them personally to accomplish (mine is the 'M')

IF we had to do something like Grafitti 2 or Jot, I guess it would not be the end of life on Earth or anything, and if it opened PDAs up to more new users, then I am all for it! The more of these things that sell, the better the innovations and cost ratios are!

As for Xerox doing GUI's, I thought Berkely Systems did that with a program called GEOS (Graphical Environment Operating System) back in the heyday of the Commodore C64- some 20 years ago now. It came with a real killer suite of apps and gave us true WYSIWYG word processing, etc. GEOS (and later, Geoworks) was out LONG before Macs or Windows.

[Griff]

Xerox invented the concept of a windowing OS in the early 70s. They are also responsible for the feel of the e-mail programs you use today and laser printers.

Then an executive decided PARC was doing idiots work and shut them down...had they stayed open Xerox would be one of the most powerful companies in the world.

I downloaded Jot and I'll be testing it for the 5 days they allow you too. I probably won't be flashing my unit to 4.2 because I've got the flash just how I want it, and I really don't want to have to set all that up again. Would be nice if Jot offered an upgrade package for less than $40 now that Palm is licensing the technology.

I am glad to see I am not the only one who uses grafitti when writing on paper, or even white boards ;-)

[workerofwood]

Ok, I've been trying Jot for a couple of days now, and I'm confused...

If Palm is going to Jot because they lost a lawsuit over Graffiti, then why is it ok for Jot to use Graffiti? Do they pay a royalty?

And since Jot uses graffiti strokes as an option (with less accuracy than native graffiti I might add)... then what's the point of switching? Maybe Graffiti 2 is just Graffiti with a Xerox license?

Anyway, I don't think I'll switch, just too used to Graffiti at this point.

[Serotta]

OT, but white boards seem to be the hardest for me. t, e, and k are always graffiti.

[Griff]

I first noticed it with A. When I was a kid I was taught to write it from the top down, first the two outside lines, then the cross, now I write it like an upside down V, and I am lucky if I remember to make the cross.

Just goes to prove that as humans we will adapt. 5 years of grafitti has me replacing 20 years of writing experience. I am sure I'll be able to adapt to Jot very quickly as it isn't too different from Grafitti.

[hherbzilla]

Er, I don't really care. I like graffiti (and TealScript!), and I'll use it on my SJ30 until I get a new PDA. If I have to use Jot then, so be it.