View Full Version : Class Action against Sony Re TG50
I confirmed with Sony that the TG50 had 16MB of Flash ROM before I opened it. Lo and behold I found out that my unit doesn't have Flash ROM but something else, perhaps cheaper.
I called Sony and they started playing semantic word games with me, including how there is 11MB of free RAM in there but there are other great free software that further reduces the available RAM to something along the lines of 10.5.
Given the fact that the TG50 did have Flash ROM installed (they claim that it doesn't say "flash" on their brochure" and that others can get JackFlash and the like to work and that the ROM is a material change in what is being offered, and adding that their own employees thought so, I think they do have a responsibility to market properly to the masses when substantial changes are made.
For more information email me at tg50@quickdirect.com and I'll provide a web site for further information. My vendor wants a restocking fee to return it.
It's the second time they pulled crap like this with regard to products, the other one far more egregious.
n2ifp
06-03-2003, 03:21 PM
Let me get this straight, the TG50 had Flashable ROM originally and now your saying that it doesn't have it anymore?
Bingo. They replaced it with something probably cheaper... and Sony felt that the lack of compatibility was something we didn't need to know about. I don't know all the details but Sony wouldn't say yes or no.
n2ifp
06-03-2003, 03:37 PM
This something to definitely be concerned about and it really sux! That goes to show that Sony has no intention of upgrading any Clies. Some buying these new NX's might be in for a big surprise too :mad:!
robrecht
06-03-2003, 04:08 PM
SONY
s_n_m
06-03-2003, 04:59 PM
Oy!
I get mad at sony sometimes...I found that my clie has flash-rom after all, but I still worry about the future, like, will I ever get an OS update even though I have flash???
BTW-No >$200 device should have hard-ROM in my opinion.
So what you're saying is the TG's new ROM is not compatible with JackFlash/Sprat, and therefore not usable by the user? That would be very bad, and even more so if they continue it with the new models. I know I definitely won't be buying an NX until somebody else finds out if JackFlash works. Anybody else with a recent TG able to back this up?
cbulock
06-03-2003, 08:07 PM
I realize many of the TG's don't have flash ROM, but the new NX's certainly will since the new CPU has the flash ROM built right into it. Now, actual updates, thats another story.
X Destruction
06-03-2003, 08:18 PM
Well, I'm pissed, I believe I just traded up for a new TG50 (because my old TG50 had a stylus stuck in it!) My new TG50 is fully charged, with one flaw... IT WONT EVEN TURN ON! I tried pressing every single button, especially the reset, all three kinds, NO RESPONSE! The funny thing is, when I first put it in the cradle, it turned on by itself, then turned off, now it won't turn on at all!
n2ifp
06-03-2003, 08:57 PM
Take it back for exchange
X Destruction
06-03-2003, 09:22 PM
I will exchange it, but I really want to know if my next one will work.. It was pretty unlikely this happened, if my next one also does this, I don't know what I'll do.
X Destruction, have you checked the HOLD button?
X Destruction
06-03-2003, 09:47 PM
Several million times.
graph101
06-03-2003, 10:03 PM
X destruction, mine did that when it wasnt fully charged. either the charger isnt connected properly (very unlikely) or you got a lemon.
my serial # is 302. 300xx which has ROM is nowhere to be found...
X Destruction
06-03-2003, 10:48 PM
Yup, I just finished packing the box. It's definetly a lemon. Time to go for my third TG50 this afternoon. Maybe I could ask the guys at future shop to precharge it or something, heh. I really don't want this to happen again, I really want to see it work before I buy it, but that'll probably never happen (sigh).
nlode
06-04-2003, 11:45 AM
This ROM issue is the similar to the SJ30; but in that case some units had a Jackflash compatible ROM and some didnīt.
My understanding from posts I have just pulled off the net, allegedly from Brayden (JackFlash), is that the new ROM used is different and not accessible. Per my discussion with Sony, they said that all of their units that were upgraded ever had to be sent to Sony for the upgrade and users never were able to do a flash upgrade, as has been common for years. She made it a point of stating that Sony never promised that ANY clie was or is upgradeable nor is there an upgrade offered. So if you got OS 5, the Palm OS in transit, Sony probably wants to stick you with it so you have to BUY a whole new unit to get the new OS when it is finally completed properly. Heck, aren't we up to 5.2 and it's still a work in progress with an emulator?
What does this mean? Either (1) Unless Sony explicitly states that an upgrade will be offered, don't bet on it. (2) If an upgrade is offered, it would seem likely that Sony will charge for it. (3) Unless all items are explicitly stated, Sony seems not to care whether or not you think you have identical products and that they can do whatever they want under the hood provided their marketing language promises nothing.
They think that they are right in a "white lie" kind of way and are very much in the wrong -- probably betting that users will just throw their hands up after getting screwed thinking 'is it worth it?' Given all the reviews of the product and the importance of flash rom, the lack of a change of product number gives the impression that all items are built the same. They aren't and there are some apps I have that use the Flash ROM in addition to Jack Flash that no longer work.
Additionally, the actual RAM available is somewhere in the low 10 MB range. The huge Palm OS usage grabs about 5. x and the other 1/2 MB seems to be due to Sony software, which they don't mention.
I've had it with Sony and their scams. My retailer is debating about whether to take back my unit without trying to charge me a 15% restocking fee. If they will, I'll keep it and will start the class action. I'm not joking and will post info here. It seems that every Sony product I have bought includes some real marketing doubletalk and me, being a very up to date person and technologically oriented, has been mislead each time.
Sony brand == Corners will be unexpectedly cut somewhere.
I would be very hesitant to buy ANYTHING from Sony any more unless there are EXPLICIT promises of an upgrade, e.g. the NX and any high end model.
More SONY BS and garbage. I sent them a detailed message about the TG50 and other CLIE models no flash ROM fiasco. I did this because calling the Sony support line (which they tell me to call below) told me that they had no information other than what I told you above. They don't get into these issues and if 'engineering' doesn't tell them anything, you don't get any info either. The answer I got as per the last message: 'we promised you nothing.' Actually Sony, you promised me the same TG50 that I saw for several months...
"We regret the difficulties you are experiencing and that you are not satisfied with the assistance you have received from the SONY Customer Information Services Center. However, the SONY e-mail correspondence department is not involved in the resolution of Customer Service issues. We provide technical support and information only. Customer Service issues such as these are handled by telephone. We therefore recommend that you contact one of our customer service representatives about your issue. Telephone representatives are available at 877-760-SONY (7669), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. From outside the U.S./Canada you may contact us at 239-768-7676."
yOyOYoo
06-04-2003, 12:10 PM
Why are you guys getting all riled up? Ok I could be wrong, but has SONY ever advertised Flash rom's purpose for YOU the consumer to be able to upgrade the OS? No I don't think so. Has SONY ever advertised Flash rom explicitly saying that it is compatible with Jackflash? NO, I don't think so either.
Ok, again I could be wrong, but isn't the purpose of Flash ROM to hold space for sony's built in applications such as Addressbook, Datebook, Cliefiles, Picsel viewer, Ms Import, blahblahblah. WIthout this flash rom, we wouldn't have the preinstalled applications. As long as EVERY new TG50 has room for these built in applications, that is all that matters really. Sony never promised Jackflash compatibility and never advertised the ROM as being user accessible.
I think we have to just realize that sony sucks and they are not gonna bend over for us. THey're just going to give you the run around. If you call to complain, you'll end up getting some schmuck on customer service who has no clue how to even use a clie.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
There is a finer point that you are missing yOyOYoo. Sony never changed the model number to let us know that there were significant differences under the hood and led us to believe that what you bought yesterday is the same as today. They should have called it the TG50a or something like that.
For example: If you inspect and then purchase a Lexus Model X today, you expect to get the same car if you buy it again tomorrow. Let's say you looked under the hood (as did every Car and Driver mag) and it reported that their tests show 0-60 in 5 seconds with engine Y. While engine Y is not listed as being in the car on the spec sheet, if it is the same model then it should use the same or equivalent parts especially with regard to essentials.
What if you go into the dealership the next day and order a Model X to find out later that yours uses engine Z and 0-60 is now 10 seconds? You'd be very mad since there was a significant change under the hood that, while every little detail wasn't promised to you, you expect it to be the same model as you inspected yesterday and delivered for the past 6 months.
The biggest problem is that we can't even pop the hood to see what we are getting from Sony. The buyer can't beware but is screwed AFTER purchase. Perhaps they thought it was worth the risk of lawsuit. This tells me plenty about Sony -- not that they won't bend over for the consumer but that you can likely *expect* to get screwed with latent and undetectable issues. I will never buy anything of significant cost from Sony (definitely not an NX) because of my last few experiences with Sony and it is happening with frightening consistency.
robrecht
06-04-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by neon
I've had it with Sony and their scams. My retailer is debating about whether to take back my unit without trying to charge me a 15% restocking fee. If they will, I'll keep it and will start the class action. I'm not joking and will post info here.
Can't wait to see you interviewed by Greta Van Susteren! Finally, something different from Scott Peterson murder case.
Neon, under the law a company has no obligation to inform the user of product changes, except when those changes specifically don't conform to advertised specifications. So, unfortunately, Sony can "downgrade" the ROM without a new model number, as long as it still works as advertised. Since Sony (per my understanding) never advertised JackFlash compatability or OS upgradability, the company is operating within its rights.
I'm not saying that Sony ought to do this or that you shouldn't be angry. But you won't find a good lawyer to take this case.
elo
ELO -- I am a lawyer. Are you talking about what you think is common sense or what law are you pointing to? There are also state statutes concerning misleading advertising.
If I'm told that I'm getting the same Lexus as I was shown yesterday, then there is a duty to inform of *latent* material differences between the two today. It's the same model but there are material differences between the two and a reasonable consumer would be misled... and they are.
I think there is a case and perhaps Sony bet on the fact that there might be some gray area, but it's not so very gray. Forcing settlement is a good thing as well and there might never be a decision. Sony's marketing wing is blowing any sense of 'reliability' and overall 'quality' that it once had and sometimes that is worse than a lawsuit.
This might be one of those worthwhile test cases which would be worth having Sony pay their high priced lawyers to deal with... there is a large enough group of aggrieved CLIE owners...
Beavis
06-04-2003, 01:11 PM
Class Action Suit:
Clie Owners get $3.00 coupon for the purchase of their next Clie
Lawyers get Squillions of $$$
Beavis -- CLIE owners may get more... but moreso, they will get at least some peace of mind that Sony is spending $$$$$ on fighting their cause at their expense and extracting Pain from the wrongdoer.
Most importantly, it's incentive NOT to screw us again. Lawyers won't make so much off this... they are limited in recovery which is why some of the companies will screw you because it's still worth their risk...
Beavis
06-04-2003, 02:12 PM
Somehow, I don't see Sony screwing us because we can't use JackFlash. They never claimed that we could. They also never promised us upgrades.
They stated the TG-50 had 16 megs RAM with 11 usable, and that is what we got. Those of us who bought it got what they paid for.
Some of us can use JackFlash, I am one of the lucky ones, but I did not buy mine with the expectation that I would be able to.
Sony doesn't want people frying their Clie's by flashing with third party software, and then returning them claiming they are defective. I can't blame them there.
I was received a class action settlement from Sprint that I didn't even know I was a party to. I received an offer of a free 10 minute long distance card. A value of $0.50. All I had to do was send them the claim form in the enclosed envelope, along with a self-addressed stamped envelope.
Let's see. $0.34 for postage to send back claim form, and $0.34 for self-addressed stamped envelope. Total $0.68 to receive a phone card worth $0.50
Sounds like a great deal to me. I wonder how much the lawyer's got out of that settlement. You can bet it was more than a Phone card, and Sprint raised its rates to make up for the cost of the settlement.
Lawyer's gain, customers lose.
Beavis... you are beginning to sound like the cartoon character.
If I'm told I'm getting model A then I should get model A and expect it to work with model A in all material respects. A flash versus non-flash ROM is a big deal and if there is a change, the consumer should know.
Sounds like you are madder at lawyers and because it doesn't affect you it's fine. You're a sad product of society unfortunately, one with a defeatist attitude. You accept being screwed since you don't get back enough of the difference. Be happy there is some remedy and don't curse at the darkness... and that the wrongdoer is getting some retribution in terms of their costs too...
Most of all, don't talk out of your rear end. Unfortunately I know how little class action attorneys make (with the exception of the cases you hear in the media) and the HUGE risk involved in financing a case that nobody wants to take...
Sony switched the internals in a material way, end of story.
Now they confirm with me it DOES have flash ROM.... hmmm... go figure. Let's see if Sony can get their story straight... I asked them specifically if all TG50s are identical now that they claim all of them have flash ROM although they don't know why I can't get certain software to work...
Beavis
06-04-2003, 02:33 PM
If I order a Clie with a 200 Mhz processor and 16 Megs RAM with 11 Megs usable, and I get a Clie with a 200 Mhz processor with 16 Megs Ram and 11 usable, I am not getting screwed.
If they gave me 8 megs of RAM instead of 16 or they gave me a 150 MHz processor, then I am getting screwed.
They are giving you what they promised.
Last time and as politely as I can:
If specifications under the hood are subject to change then you better DAMN WELL let everyone know about them, especially if they are material, which they are. What was marketed to me in my retail shop is not what I got. I was told that the TG50 will work with all the apps and the one in the store DOES but mine doesn't.
You got what you wanted so you don't care about the rest. I want exactly what I was promised by Sony's own authorized dealers that I was getting and I expected -- the same PERFORMANCE as the one in the store. If I was so dense then all the Sony authorized resellers wouldn't be looking at me like I was crazy by telling them that one TG50 isn't the same as another. That is a SURE sign of problems... and responsibility.
Beavis... if you can't contribute or understand, leave us alone. I'm not sure if some time in law school will help... Perhaps if you get a car but it doesn't list the fact that it will drive, that won't be covered either... Please, you don't have to file with us and you can opt not to receive any benefit that may be bestowed upon the rest of us, whether or not it is below or exceeds your non-expectations.
robrecht
06-04-2003, 02:43 PM
What do you call 10,000 class action lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
Homie_S
06-04-2003, 03:03 PM
10,000 good things that happened today.
I dunno, it sounds like they're getting screwed, but Beavis does bring up a good point...
eh, hard to tell.
Beavis
06-04-2003, 03:08 PM
"What do you call 10,000 class action lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?"
A good start?
Bionic Antboy
06-04-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by neon
Last time and as politely as I can:
If specifications under the hood are subject to change then you better DAMN WELL let everyone know about them, especially if they are material, which they are. What was marketed to me in my retail shop is not what I got. I was told that the TG50 will work with all the apps and the one in the store DOES but mine doesn't.
You got what you wanted so you don't care about the rest. I want exactly what I was promised by Sony's own authorized dealers that I was getting and I expected -- the same PERFORMANCE as the one in the store. If I was so dense then all the Sony authorized resellers wouldn't be looking at me like I was crazy by telling them that one TG50 isn't the same as another. That is a SURE sign of problems... and responsibility.
Hmm... I'm not sure if you're being a little disingenious in some of the techniques you're using to state your case...forthwith...
The crux of the argument seems to be that some units are Flash-able, and some aren't. In Sony's defense, I don't recall EVER seeing them advertise their RAM as "Flash RAM" (and definitely before the TG50 came out). There may have been assumptions on third party websites and such, but Sony never claimed that.
Similarly, on their site, they've (since at least since before the TG50 came out), always had little legal footnotes regarding the RAM, stating that a portion of it was used for "data management", not to mention the ubiquitous...
"Specifications and features are subject to change without notice."
I would think, therefore, that Sony never made ANY promise to it's consumers regarding the Flashability of it's memory, and any 3rd party software programs that modify that would in all likelyhood violate any warranty on the device. Considering that in every other way, a model that can use Jack Flash and a unit that can not are identical in form and function, I don't see where a class action suit wouldn't get much further than the initial stages.
The comparison to cars seems kind of misleading as well, since all the advertised functions of the two models would be identical. I think a more apt analogy would be if one could get under the hood of the car and "tweak" the engine to make it go from 0-60 in 3 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds, but in the modified model, it couldn't be similarly tweaked. It would, however, still go the advertised 0-60 in 5 seconds. There's no way that case would stand up, but it would make for a thriving "underground" market for the tweakable version.
Another more real-world example is the Sony camcorder who's "nightvision" function had the unexpected ability to see through clothes. Sony adjusted that so that it could no longer do so, but in every other way, the camera functioned the same. There IS an "underground" or secondary market for the original version of this camera, and it does have a cult-like following.
Modifying a model to remove a function that the manufacturer never intended, without modifying the intended functions is wholy different than crippling an advertised function without notifying the consumer.
NOW: If a retail store showed this functionality, you may have a bone to pick with them, but if they are authorized Sony dealers, Sony would have a case with them for advertising that their product does something that Sony itself never stated it does, and in fact, violates the warranty. If this retailer has units that CAN be flashed, then exchange it. Place the blame on either the retailer, or the employee who misrepresented what the product can do.
Being snippy with Beavis, and try to pay attention to what he's saying...and I quote...
If I order a Clie with a 200 Mhz processor and 16 Megs RAM with 11 Megs usable, and I get a Clie with a 200 Mhz processor with 16 Megs Ram and 11 usable, I am not getting screwed.
If they gave me 8 megs of RAM instead of 16 or they gave me a 150 MHz processor, then I am getting screwed.
They are giving you what they promised.
He basically says what I stated, without a bunch of legal like mumbo jumbo.
One doesn't need to be a lawyer to see that the basis of your case holds no water legally.
Sorry
robrecht
06-04-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by robrecht
What do you call 10,000 class action lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
Whatever you call them, be prepared to be named as a defendant in a class action libel suit!
Seriously, neon, I think we're mostly sympathetic to your disappointment at SONY not designing their PDAs in the manner that would be most advantageous to sensible users. SONY, like most manufacturers, is known for cutting corners where they think it will not matter to 99% of users. They are known for not offering free USER upgradable operating systems if at all, and they are far more guilty of misrepresenting their future product development in their Memory Stick PRO buffoonery than in this case.
I hope you can move on, but hey, I would indeed love to see you interviewed by Greta Van Susteren.
Caffeine kid
06-04-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by neon
There is a finer point that you are missing yOyOYoo. Sony never changed the model number to let us know that there were significant differences under the hood and led us to believe that what you bought yesterday is the same as today. They should have called it the TG50a or something like that.
Thats not how it works, look at the newly designed PS2 that was just released. Combines mutiple chips into one chip and has a progressive scan dvd player. Its still called the PS2, not the PS2a.
They found a cheaper way of doing something and they did it.
cbulock
06-04-2003, 06:17 PM
Exactly, companies are redesigning their products all the time. The internals of game machines are good examples. Sony has changed the internals of the PS1 and PS2 numerous to cut costs and to stop modding. I really don't think your going to get very far with this neon. Like it has already been stated, Sony never made any claims about upgrading the OS or using the Flash ROM.
Caffeine kid
06-04-2003, 06:19 PM
lol....
poor neon....
Rosenkrantz
06-04-2003, 06:22 PM
Some times sony has this retail-sense with their clies. They throw them out there and other than rare bug fixes, they never ever release new or dramatically updated software. Take the remote control software for example - great but they have never added any new devices to it.
I think the issue is not whether Sony promised users they could use JackFlash (obviously that's a 3rd-party program which does things the manufacturer doesn't intend for the user to do), but what their actual advertisements and product specifications said. If they said "flash ROM" and there is now no flash ROM in the device, then I think that would be false advertising. I don't know if they used those exact words though. If not I guess there's not much of a case for it.
It sounds a lot like the debate last year with Palm and the m130 not being 16-bit color. It became an argument over semantics and what the definition of 16-bit was (they clearly promoted it as such, but it was actually 12 bit, I think, and used some kind of dithering technique to "simulate" the number of colors of 16-bit.) I don't know if anything legal came out of it (most users I heard of were interested in refunds), but Palm definitely was forced to admit that the product was not what was advertised, and to stop calling it 16-bit.
Bionic Antboy
06-04-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Caffeine kid
Thats not how it works, look at the newly designed PS2 that was just released. Combines mutiple chips into one chip and has a progressive scan dvd player. Its still called the PS2, not the PS2a.
They found a cheaper way of doing something and they did it.
Same deal with Xbox. It started out with an 8 gig drive, then some had 10 gigs, and now, most new Xboxes have 20 gigs in them, because it's cheaper to use an off-the-shelf 20 gig (plus some changes in motherboard design) than to have 8 gigs specially manufactured...
akfreas
06-04-2003, 09:20 PM
Now, I do not own a TG50, so this may or may not be true. I am right now looking at the specs of the TG and seeing that in the included Sony software there is something called "Remote Camera" and "Reversi for Clie". My only experience with the TG is when I played with it at a store. Are these softwares included? Or is it something that Sony "forgot" when selling in the US. If it is, it kinda sounds similar, like false advertising.
akfreas -- you are on the right track. It is a type of false advertising although not as clear cut. Sony knows it has created an impression to a reasonable consumer. You are responsible for what you do and what you cause to happen. Don't think Sony is unaware of all the reviews (and product placements it pushes) where the TG50 components are reviewed and conclusions stated. This isn't as easy a case as not providing Reversi when it says it should, although it said 11MB of RAM when it's actually 10.4 MB given Sony's apps.
Example: Let's say Sony offered a TG2000 and stated only that it would have a color screen. Sony could make one that was 8 bit, 16 bit, or 24 bit and it is their choice. Let's say Sony made the TG2000 with a 24 bit screen and the product was on the market for 6 months, the writeup in dozens of magazines said it had 24 bit color, and it was pushed by authorized resellers and in trade mags.
One day Sony decides to make it with an 8 bit screen but doesn't change the model number, which leads the reasonable person to think he is getting the same TG2000 that he got yesterday. Sony doesn't alert authorized distributors and retailers that there is a change that could materially affect users, and they sell software that requires 24 bit color thinking the TG2000 are al the same. Sony is aware of the perception it has created by its marketing, press, and through its own retailers. It then throws up its hands and says 'all I promised you was a color screen!' Not exactly, unless the specifications being subject to change are **made clear** and typically involves the model number being modified when the change is material.
The 'spec sheet' is not a contract nor is it the only item that is taken into account. Sony's own authorized reps will sell you JackFlash in retail outlets and tell you it's the same TG50 because they thought so (which is why my vendor is considering taking it back with no restocking fee.) In my example, Sony knew it created the image that the unit had a 24 bit screen and a consumer buying a TG2000 is expecting it to be materially the same as one sold before.
What would be an example of not being a material change? If the RAM in the unit was of a slightly lower quality from a different manufacturer. It works as RAM... but if it was substantially poorer and caused many more errors as a result, that would not be material. But given the fact that here the limited amount of RAM has made the TG50 subject to much public scrutiny (and articles about recapturing RAM and/or making use of software that can use Flash ROM) Sony was aware that Flash ROM is something important to many users. If the TG50 had 100MB of RAM the issue would have far less importance and wouldn't have been material.
I've been screwed by Sony too many times now that I will not buy their products. Many of you know what I'm talking about. The last one was a voice recorder that said on the box that it could connect to a computer, included software... but Sony didn't tell you that you needed to purchase *separately* an expensive proprietary reader to do so!!! Talk about misleading... This could be a fun test case for me and worth it to see how Sony reacts to a potential suit....
rob_squared
06-04-2003, 11:13 PM
I think they're the kind of programs that came with the bluetooth ms. Since the TG has bluetooth then I'd expect that it'll be on the CD.
dach95
06-04-2003, 11:15 PM
I dont have a TG, but my experience with SONY had been horrible for the last few months. I had a VAIO that took over a month to get fix. Plus, numerous run around regarding to charges they tried to impose on the repair because I had a different HD installed, which their own people verified that I can do...Good bye sony... You lost one once loyal second gen customer. Now I'm back with IBM thinkpads. At least they don't break down every three months...
the_tick
06-04-2003, 11:56 PM
Just my 2 cents which is worth nothing . . .
Beavis you rule! (Just like the cartoon)
Anyway, the average consumer would see no difference between the two TG-50s. To them the performance is the same (speed, memory, etc) and does all that Sony ever claimed that it would do. Personally, I think it's a bonus if you get the flash ram.
If you don't like the model because it doesn't do something that you assumed it would, then take it back for a refund or replacement. Places like BestBuy, Circuit City, target, walmart, etc are very liberal with their return policy. They give you full refunds within 30 days if you simply did not like the product.
yOyOYoo
06-05-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Caffeine kid
Thats not how it works, look at the newly designed PS2 that was just released. Combines mutiple chips into one chip and has a progressive scan dvd player. Its still called the PS2, not the PS2a.
They found a cheaper way of doing something and they did it.
Caffeine kid! Imma have to back your statement up. You beat me to the punch. Sony did release Multiple PS2s. would it make you happy, neon, if they named these subsequent PS2s; PS2a, PS2b, PS2c, PS2d.... Also, weren't the later PS2s made so that the user could not modify them?
yOyOYoo
06-05-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by akfreas
Now, I do not own a TG50, so this may or may not be true. I am right now looking at the specs of the TG and seeing that in the included Sony software there is something called "Remote Camera" and "Reversi for Clie". My only experience with the TG is when I played with it at a store. Are these softwares included? Or is it something that Sony "forgot" when selling in the US. If it is, it kinda sounds similar, like false advertising.
yes these programs are included, the registered versions can be installed from the TG50 install cd.
Its really a shame that the only bluetooth game sony provides us is an Othello clone.
yOyOYoo
06-05-2003, 03:47 AM
The biggest "false advertising" that I can think of was sony and how they led people on to assume that all sony products would be backwards compatible with their new Memory stick pro.
I think every os4 clie user and many digital camera users of sony would agree that sony really screwed them over.
My friend has the SOny F707 digital camera that is 5mp. Guess what? He can only use 128mb memory sticks for memory storage. That sucks so much. A few months later sneaky sony released the F717, and guess what, it was the exact same camera as the F707 except it was memory stick pro compatible.
I think we can all also agree that sony is comprised of a bunch of scumbags.
Beavis
06-05-2003, 04:32 AM
neon said....
"This could be a fun test case for me and worth it to see how Sony reacts to a potential suit....'"
The people at Sony are just laughing hysterically at this whole thread.
I doubt you've ever been inside a courtroom in your life, except as a defendant. Probably spend too much time at home watching "Law & Order" on your TV. Maybe with a little "Court TV" thrown in.
If by chance you really are an Attorney, how come you have so much time to spend on ClieSource whining about such a trivial matter? Shouldn't you be studying your current cases and trying to give your clients the best defense possible?
nlode
06-05-2003, 05:22 AM
I am not arguing the merit of the case, but I see this in two ways:
1. Sony did not say that you could store files in the ROM in any of their materials. OK, so that is a point that they have.
2. Sony is selling computing products to us thinking they are like TVs and VCRs. I am not sure this is enough for a lawsuit, but I would really like they change their attitude. Some heavy users are used for years to have Jackflash in their Palms to improve storage, and now Sony is changing the rules saying: "ok, this is like a TV set, you donīt have to upgrade the sw or use the ROM memory". I donīt think this applies only to the Clies; when I lived in the US I had in my home a ThinkPad and a Vaio laptops. I had a power problem in the ThinkPad, and IBM fixed and returned the PC to me in 4 days. The Vaio had a hard disk crash, and it took 3 MONTHS to get it back. My previous Clie had a broken LCD, and it took 4 weeks to get it back. I think these show Sony is not thinking the same way we do.
pnorman
06-05-2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by X Destruction
Well, I'm pissed, I believe I just traded up for a new TG50 (because my old TG50 had a stylus stuck in it!) My new TG50 is fully charged, with one flaw... IT WONT EVEN TURN ON! I tried pressing every single button, especially the reset, all three kinds, NO RESPONSE! The funny thing is, when I first put it in the cradle, it turned on by itself, then turned off, now it won't turn on at all!
I had the same problem with a brand new T665 I had ordered by internet (Tigerdirect). Sony Tech Support talked me through all they could think of, and finally made arrangements to have it sent back for repair/replacement. While waiting for the Sony mailer, I left the T665 on my desk for a few days. That was apparently long enough for it to COMPLETELY discharge. On a whim, I put it back in the charger/cradle for a few hours ... and now you know the rest of the story. It seems to hold a charge even better than my T615 (which isn't saying very much).
Beavis
06-05-2003, 05:45 AM
Sony may not be thinking the same way that we do, and we may not like some of their like their business practices, but we do have a way to show our displeasure. We have freedom of choice when it comes to buying a PDA.
If you feel you have been screwed by Sony, or you did not get your moneys worth, you are free to buy a Palm, or a (for now) Handspring, or a Kyocera, or a Samsung, or a Fossil, or go over to the dark side, and buy a PocketPC.
Most of here continue to buy Sony, because we like Sony, and they generally make a great product. Sony did not get the reputation that Sony has by building junk.
nlode
06-05-2003, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Beavis
Sony may not be thinking the same way that we do, and we may not like some of their like their business practices, but we do have a way to show our displeasure. We have freedom of choice when it comes to buying a PDA.
If you feel you have been screwed by Sony, or you did not get your moneys worth, you are free to buy a Palm, or a (for now) Handspring, or a Kyocera, or a Samsung, or a Fossil, or go over to the dark side, and buy a PocketPC.
Most of here continue to buy Sony, because we like Sony, and they generally make a great product. Sony did not get the reputation that Sony has by building junk.
I agree with you, I bought the Sony because I liked the features and design of my NX-70. And still this outweights all other headaches. But I just wish they would treat the Clies as computing products...
ashVID
06-05-2003, 05:55 AM
Sorry Neon but what rock have you been living under? The entire point of the electonic industry is constant adaptation to cut costs, improve functionality or BOTH. As noted above, the PS2 is now in its 8th version, there is now a faster driver, more video ram, better DVD decoder, etc. Many of the original parts have also been replaced by cheaper parts as well. This is all invisible to the end user.
Your analogy about the Lexus is just not fair. A more fair analogy would be that you bought a Lexus advertised with leather seats but found that the 2003 models use cheaper patent leather. So what?
You are wanting to use your clie in a manner which is not advertised as being supported. Can you sue Sony because they made it harder to add a modchip to your PS2??? I am sure you are just venting but your arguement has no merit, we sympathize but legally it is laughable...
ash =o)
Unregistered
06-05-2003, 07:13 AM
Most of the whining on these boards about Sony is laughable.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 07:42 AM
Neon,
You are still not arguing the merits of your case. Otherwise, why would you make up hypothetical examples that don't even follow the crux of your complaint. You don't NEED hypotheticals if your case actually has any merit.
That should be something you learned in law school (since you stated that you are a lawyer and all).
ALL the facts in the case point to Sony NOT advertising Flashable memory. The only thing you mention that may have SOME merit is that you implied that a retailer showed you it was possible to access this memory with a 3rd party software (to do something SONY would disapprove of in the first place).
If you REALLY want to get into the legal minutae of it, the only legitimate claim you have is with the retailer and their employee. If you are unsatisfied with your purchase, which was made based on what that employee told you, then you have every right to return the product for a full refund, or maybe see if they have a unit that does have Flashable memory. Nothing more.
Your case against Sony has no grounds and would be promptly dismissed. That's what they courts would say. Why waste the time and energy? Don't go citing "principle" either, since Sony didn't wrong you, how can you be made on principle?
Now THAT'S the end of the story.
The law is an ***. :)
ashvid & Beavis: It amazes me how much you guys talk about how much you know about how the world works. ashvid -- If you think that you are getting the latest technology out there especially because the cost is lowered then you are the naive one living under a rock. Sony owns several large brand names in the electronics arena and several multinationals seem to control much of flow of last year's crap that is offered in this region (key word). They are more interested in being able to offer you old technology so you'll buy more of it, despite the fact that new technology has been around and may have been offered in other regions.
I know exactly how the technology industry works as I was in executive mgmt in a large tech media multinational and agree with you about in theory about progress. That's unfortunately limited to business school but not reality. Unlike Beavis' limited MTV mind, I've spent plenty of time in a courtroom too. Perhaps he does standup in front of a mirror.
One alarming trend of the past several years is the value in taking the risk in screwing the consumer by challenging our continuously faltering legal system and daring a meaningful penalty. It used to be about progress wanting to build the better mousetrap (like you think) but now it's all about how to give as little as possible to the consumer even if the technology is available... 'kanban' was an innovation. Now? Market to the point of being completely misleading and having the legal system not create a penalty to deter the conduct and the consumers actually believing that it is acceptable to get screwed because they have to be the ones doing all the work to read the latest magazines to KNOW what they are getting.
ashvid -- you seem to be more comfortable with black and white but anything gray doesn't give you the comfort of the 'clear answer.' So you err on the side of lack of full disclosure... how sad. As I said with the Lexis example, if they were selling models that went from 0-60 in 5 seconds and you ordered one but got a substandard part that made it go from 0-60 in 10sec., you'd have wanted to know about that change. From the number of people who wrote me and both on here, it seems that the number of users of Flash ROM is not so insignificant. I'm sure Sony knew it was a gray area and, even if they were wrong, they didn't give a damn because the FTC is dealing with so many others who break the law far more egregiously -- the Memory Stick example was a good one that is worse than the TG50 issue.
Beavis, perhaps you thought Fight Club was just about a cool boxing movie. Remember the scene with the burned out cars? Automobile manufacturers have been alleged to have gone the full disgraceful route far beyond a CLIE, meaningless in comparison -- is it worth it to put a substandard part in a car that could cause deaths? Well, if the cost of insurance will be less than the amount of money saved, then the company will make money despite the fact that those 25 or so deaths could have been easily prevented. Tobacco manufacturers (the execs, not the inanimate 'companies') also allegedly had the same attitude and marketed people to kill themselves and held back info they should have known that could have made many think about how really dangerous and addictive smoking could be. Perhaps some people would have quit or limited the amount of smoking they did -- but they did not get that information.
It's about FULL disclosure people and not getting it since there aren't stringent penalties to punish for the continuous white marketing lies too many accept. JackFlash is just one app that was popular enough to be a business so it's not like nobody knew about it. Sony's own authorized Dealers shouldn't have tried to sell me TG50 and JackFlash, available at the store... understand?
Beavis -- I was looking to potentially learn more about doing class actions so it might not be a bad test case. Could I finance it the whole way through? Don't know what could happen... I'm sure Sony isn't 'quaking in its boots' but, like any other company, the thorn of having to deal with the problem in the long haul may make a payoff/compromise settlement worth it from a business standpoint. But I'm not sure you understand that because you're too busy watching Law & Order (criminal cases) and talking about how much you know in the civil arena...
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
ALL the facts in the case point to Sony NOT advertising Flashable memory. The only thing you mention that may have SOME merit is that you implied that a retailer showed you it was possible to access this memory with a 3rd party software (to do something SONY would disapprove of in the first place).
Antboy, you need to read more before you start giving us theories on the law. See the chain of distribution and who is responsible. If a consumer sues a retailer then the retailer sues the distributor for not getting the info who sues the manufacturer. What happens? The consumer sues all of them (you just name them in the suit, it's not like it costs more) and then all of them come into court to duke it out. It's Sony who never provided full disclosure to anyone and is the ultimate bearer of responsibility.
Wow... it amazes me how all of you accept being screwed for implicitly (not explictly) misleading statements. I guess it is a sign of the times... As a consumer, you should get full disclosure on items that *may be* material in nature. These importance changes when the issue concerns something *you* thought was clear. Companies, with the power to control the flow of info, should be erring slightly on the side of caution for your protection. You DO NOT get passed on the 'savings' of them selling you crap in the form of 'new technology.' You actually think that anything more than marginal benefits is passed onto you and not to the executive mgmt?
The bottom line? The TG50 issue is not as clear as the Memory Stick or Voice Recorder fraud. I totally agree. But I don't doubt that Sony knew that there would be a significant number of people who would have been pissed that the TG50 they bought today was NOT the same one as the one they bought yesterday. If these consumers did know, they would likely have decided to buy another non-Sony model and they wouldn't be able to clear out their inventory. It's not as clear as an example as the others but, nonetheless, it is another example of what seems to be the sony trend -- innovation ain't worth it when you can sock the consumer by marketing him into thinking he's getting something and then forcing him to buy 2 instead of 1...
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 08:05 AM
Neon:
Holy carp! You are STILL not arguing the merits of your case. I notice you haven't addressed any of my posts :) Is it because you know they completely shoot down your groundless kvetching? :) Now you are trying to draw comparisons between your Flash Mem woes to Tobacco companies and the automotive industry?
I can't believe a word you say about you being a lawyer or used to be "in executive mgmt in a large tech media multinational". Your leaps in logic astound me!
And your greed is showing in the last paragraph...
sure Sony isn't 'quaking in its boots' but, like any other company, the thorn of having to deal with the problem in the long haul may make a payoff/compromise settlement worth it from a business standpoint
Even though it has no merit, you would still go through with it, because you might get a payoff. Okay, maybe I was wrong, and you are a lawyer.
Typical
Antboy -- you think I want to waste time with this little somewhat gray issue because I'm going to get a 'greedy' $40 million dollar payoff settlement to be reported in the Journal?
Seriously, you and Beavis and the rest of the ADD afflicted, MTV-generation x know it alls should read up before you talk as if you know everything. As I said, Sony started the chain of non-disclosure so they will be brought into court through the chain of distribution.
Antboy -- the 'payoff' means you get compensated for the effort without dealing with court although likely not as much as anyone should. It's a compromise that is driven by both sides willing to concede. Perhaps you should work in the real world before placing importance on semantics... or you would have understood the context.
Unregistered
06-05-2003, 08:31 AM
Good Luck to you neon. I am glad to see that you are sticking to your beliefs even under the usual barrage of posts from people who live vicariously through the internet.
akfreas
06-05-2003, 08:43 AM
Who's going to help you out with your suit if you present yourself as being hostile?
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 08:45 AM
Neon:
The "payoff" thing was just a tangential issue. You still haven't address the supposed merits of the case, which many have pointed out to you are lacking, and I went into detail why they are lacking.
Before worrying about the "payoff", and insulting everybody with some kind of asinine "ADD afflicted, MTV-generation x know it alls", why not address the details of the case? Don't try to minimize everything else that was said beforehand because of a smartass remark I made about the payoffs.
And, to address the only real point you made in the latest post...
As I said, Sony started the chain of non-disclosure so they will be brought into court through the chain of distribution.
You have no evidence to back that up. I've already told you where the responisbility begins and ends, unless you can show WITH EVIDENCE (a basic legal concept which you seem to be overlooking) that Sony misled you. It was the employee at the retailer you bought the unit from, if they promised you Flashable memory.
Now, as to semantics, don't accuse me of not grasping the context of your posts. They are quite clear. I was merely pointing out where you have no legal standing agaisnt Sony. I have a pretty decent grasp of linguistics and semiotics, so I can see in your previous posts where you are trying to win support using examples that don't accurately represent your case. I wasn't playing a "semantics" game, just commenting on the one you've been playing throughout this thread.
As for the "real world" comment, I don't understand where that is coming from. What makes you suspect that I don't work in said "world" as opposed to some unreal fictional world? Can you explain this to me? What type of world, exactly, do you think I live in?
Your lack of addressing the real issues presented by the case you've proposed, as well as bizarre, tangential stories/examples of car companies and "Big Tobacco" suggest that you probably DON'T have a firm grasp of how the legal system works.
Your personal insults towards those who shoot logical holes through your case just proves that your age isn't properly reflected in your profile, and that maybe there is a good case for not letting grade school children having access to the internet without adult supervision.
Or, to put it more succinctly...
In yer face. :)
Unregistered
06-05-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by akfreas
Who's going to help you out with your suit if you present yourself as being hostile? What is the average age here? I'm surprised that there was patience to deal with these game boy babies. I didn't see any need for Beavis or antboy to get nasty.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Good Luck to you neon. I am glad to see that you are sticking to your beliefs even under the usual barrage of posts from people who live vicariously through the internet.
Or hide vicariously through the internet? :)
Seriously. Neon's case has no legal merit. He(?) purports to be a lawyer, but when presented with evidence that blows holes in the case, chooses to "shoot the messenger" instead of addressing that evidence.
Oh wait, let me guess... this unregistered post is from Neon, creating a virtual cheering section :)
akfreas
06-05-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
Your personal insults towards those who shoot logical holes through your case just proves that your age isn't properly reflected in your profile, and that maybe there is a good case for not letting grade school children having access to the internet without adult supervision.
LMAO!!!! Good one.
akfreas
06-05-2003, 08:52 AM
"game boy babies"
?
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
What is the average age here? I'm surprised that there was patience to deal with these game boy babies. I didn't see any need for Beavis or antboy to get nasty.
hey Unregistered.... Neon started doling out personal insults well before I did. I'm still waiting for Neon to address the FACTS of the case. Why, also are you willing to "jump into the fray" with name calling and assumptions on age.
BTW, for the record, I'm 35, not that that matters one whit.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by akfreas
"game boy babies"
?
I suspect Unregistered is really Neon in disguise. :)
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
Neon:
And, to address the only real point you made in the latest post...
You have no evidence to back that up. I've already told you where the responisbility begins and ends, unless you can show WITH EVIDENCE (a basic legal concept which you seem to be overlooking) that Sony misled you. It was the employee at the retailer you bought the unit from, if they promised you Flashable memory.
<<snipped>>
Or, to put it more succinctly...
In yer face. :)
Uh, antbrain... Macpherson v. Buick. First year law school which I remember even from years ago. Seminal case for product liability and the chain of manufacture and distribution. You have no clue what you are talking about since the 'logical' rules are modified to deal with unique problems caused by mass distribution. It's not as simple as basic math, but you never bothered to see what's beyond legal and societal algebra.
Let everyone know when you give the next course on 'evidence' and until then, stick to opening your mouth in this arena only while playing "Judge Dredd" on your Playstation.
akfreas
06-05-2003, 09:01 AM
"antbrain"
?
Beavis
06-05-2003, 09:19 AM
So neon, you don't by any chance practice law in California do you?
That would go a long way to explain your interpretation of the law.
Those not from the the left coast know what I am talking about.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 09:24 AM
Neon:
Can you put the personal insults aside and ADDRESS THE ISSUES OF YOUR CASE? Yes. That's yelling. For somebody who professes a legal background, you're not proving yourself an asset to the profession.
I've ask you to explain how the chain of manufacture and distribution applies to YOUR CASE. You haven't so far. You've talked 'til you're blue in the face about hypothetical cases, and brought up other cases, but don't address how any of them in any material way applies to the case of Flashable Mem on the TG50.
I suspect that it's because you KNOW that it doesn't apply to your case, and that's why you are ignoring the facts and hurling out lame personal insults.
You mentioned before that you don't "want to waste time with this little somewhat gray issue", but I was mentioning a number of issues in the original post, that weren't "gray" at all. The are material issues that would have to addressed on the outset of the case, so if you are REALLY going to go through with this class action suit, you better be prepared to address them legally, or Sony will get one of it's legal interns to chew you up and spit you out.
To sum it up:
Sony NEVER promised you access to more mem than what was advertised in their printed and online literature. Sony also states that their Clies may not work with all 3rd party software. An employee at a retailer showed you that you could, even though (and look in your manual - it's in mine for my T665) it would be something that explicitly violates the TG50's warranty.
Actually, I'm unclear on that fact. Did an employee at the store SHOW you the TG50 working with JackFlash or some other software that gives you access to the additional memory?
Regardless, the responsibility ends with the retailer.
In fact, Sony would probably have a case against the authorized reseller, and could pull all their products from said store, since the reseller is misrepresenting the Sony product, and selling it on functionalities that not only does Sony not guarantee but EXPLICITLY violates their warranty.
Now tell me, without juvenile personal insults, where any case history gives you a leg to stand on, or STFU if you can't.
Alistar
06-05-2003, 10:26 AM
Your Lexus comparison is flawed. You mention that it is advertised as being able to go 0-60 in 5 seconds, but you recieve a model that gives less performance being 0-60 in 10 seconds.
This is the not the case with your situation. Your model does everything that Sony advertised it as doing. The fact that it has different parts is irrelevant if the end result is the same. Your TG50 does what Sony says it does. The fact that some people got a bonus is irrelevant. Take your Lexus example. Your situation is analagous to Lexus advertising it as going 0-60 in 5 seconds, but a percentage of those cars actually went 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. The people who have cars that go 0-60 in 5 seconds have no case against Lexus because it performs as advertised. The fact that some models have provide a bonus or extra feature is irrelevant.
And yes, I repeat myself quite a bit. The point I am trying to make is that because you did not get a feature that is not advertised as being there is irrelevant. Suck it up and move on.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 10:39 AM
Alistar:
Heheh... I made the same point before, but it wasn't addressed. Don't expect it to be now. For an alleged legal professional, Neon sure knows how to ignore the facts that the other side is presenting.
Don M
06-05-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Alistar
.....The point I am trying to make is that because you did not get a feature that is not advertised as being there is irrelevant. Suck it up and move on.
Exactly! Geesh!
rob_squared
06-05-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Beavis
Those not from the the left coast know what I am talking about.
The LEFT coast? So if I go from Massachusetts to Florida I'm going down for the summer? That's a connotation I don't want.
cbulock
06-05-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
Alistar:
Heheh... I made the same point before, but it wasn't addressed. Don't expect it to be now. For an alleged legal professional, Neon sure knows how to ignore the facts that the other side is presenting.
Actually, the part about ignoring the facts to try and make his point is the only thing that makes me think he might be a lawyer.
Neon, what in the world make you think a company HAS to give you full disclosure about any change they make to a product? They don't. You exepect every time a company changes chip A with chip B, they have to announce it in advertisements? This whole argument is totally ridiculous. Sony doesn't plan to upgrade the OS of these units, so it only made sense to them to put a cheaper non-flashable chip in the device.
And because of the insults you are displaying, it is pretty obvious to eveyone here that you are only some 14 year old kid you watches a little too much Court TV. Real adults don't act like that. But it was a good try at first.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 01:14 PM
Heheh.
I just looked up MacPherson v. Buick (from 1916), and it was about how Buick bought it's defective wooden wheels from another manufacturer, and somebody was injured when the wheel broke. The defendant was saying Buick was negligent because they didn't properly inspect the tires.
It doesn't in any way support or relate to Neon's claim of "chain of distribution".
Anybody REALLY interested in this stuff can read it for themselves at....
http://www.lawrence.edu/fac/boardmaw/MacPhrsn_Bu.html
or any number of other places, but I doubt anybody will :)
I've just got a lot of time on my hands, as my render farm is doing the lions share of the work today. :)
yOyOYoo
06-05-2003, 01:57 PM
A scary thing is perhaps this is going to start a trend. I'll bet in the upcoming new NXs, with a claimed 32MB Flash ROM, will have none of this accessible by jackflash. And us poor sony users will be stuck with the measly 16mb RAM.
We'll have a mob of angry NX users arguing a similar case in a month or two.
What's really sad is that there are many people, like me, who will upgrade to future sonys, even though they are missing many features, because to me, there is no other palm os hardware company that can come up with anything that compares to the sonys at this time. (if u're like me and don't like the Tungsten C)
jamester
06-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Or if you're like me and like jog wheels. :) That's my main reason for staying. I can't imagine reading an ebook without a jog wheel anymore. No flash ram? Oh well, I can deal. No jog wheel? GET IT OUTTA HERE!
Why don't you guys __read the case__ before making fools of yourselves trying to employ algebra logic in a calculus world. Last message... the whole POINT of the case is a change in thinking long before you and I were born to prevent manufacturers from pinning the tail on the retailer and being insulated from suit.
My retailer didn't misrepresent at all. Sony led my retailer to think that the TG50 sold yesterday is the exact same TG50 sold today. Retailer will implead (join into the case) the Manufacturer for not informing retailer of this 'omission.' Sony could have prevented the ambiguity easily. Is that clear enough?
The gray area? The problem is that the law always lags behind problems and sometimes the cost of the remedy makes dealing with the problem a practical impossibility. The result? Companies get away with loads of consumer misinformation. Chalk it up to big money efforts at lobbying resulting in weak laws...
Don M
06-05-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by neon
Why don't you guys __read the case__ before making fools of yourselves trying to employ algebra logic in a calculus world. Last message... the whole POINT of the case is a change in thinking long before you and I were born to prevent manufacturers from pinning the tail on the retailer and being insulated from suit...
You don't have a case. You're pissing in the wind. Give it up and eat your pride. You are making more of a fool of yourself the more you persist. ;)
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
Heheh.
I just looked up MacPherson v. Buick (from 1916), and it was about how Buick bought it's defective wooden wheels from another manufacturer, and somebody was injured when the wheel broke. The defendant was saying Buick was negligent because they didn't properly inspect the tires.
It doesn't in any way support or relate to Neon's claim of "chain of distribution".
Antboy... did you get the point that Buick, the *manufacturer* was sued and found liable even though the car was sold by a *retailer*? THAT is the point of the case that totally evaded you. Buick didn't even sell the car to the plaintiff!!!!!
According to you, Antboy, and I quote "Regardless, the responsibility ends with the retailer."
Perhaps you should have told this to Judge Cardozo. Everyone would have been thankful for your wisdom.
Don M
06-05-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by jamester
Or if you're like me and like jog wheels. :) That's my main reason for staying. I can't imagine reading an ebook without a jog wheel anymore. No flash ram? Oh well, I can deal. No jog wheel? GET IT OUTTA HERE!
Same here. I LOVE the jog wheel! Sometimes I go back to a Visor and I find it very cumbersome to read ebooks with it.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 02:49 PM
Neon:
Sorry, but you're wrong on this. I've read the MacPherson case, and it doesn't apply at all.
One last time. Sony doesn't advertise that the memory is Flash Mem. Sony doesn't say you will be able to get more memory by using certain 3rd party utilities. In fact, in their EULA (in one of the manuals), modifying this stuff voids any warranty. Sony also doesn't guarantee that ANY 3rd party software of ANY nature is guaranteed to work on any of their Clies. Sony doesn't misrepresent this information in ANY published information I'VE ever seen.
To prove your case, you'd have to prove that Sony was advertising the memory as Flash to consumers (which they don't), and you'd also have to prove that they told retailers (at least this particular one) the same thing. Can you do that? Where has Sony misrepresented itself?
SO the retailer DID misrepresent the product if they told you you get memory that can be tweaked by 3rd party software, because Sony sure didn't.
The product looks and functions identically (and this is important:>> with regards to the manufacturers advertised capabilities). What other people do can do using 3rd party software (or hardware) is beyond Sony.
If you went out and bought a small phillips screwdriver, because you saw in store that the screws that held the TG50 together were phillips, then you bought a TG50 the next day, and it used a small Robinson head instead, can you sue Sony? That's a material change as well, but one that DOESN'T affect the intended functionality of the device.
I use the screw example, because just like accessing extra memory, opening the case VIOLATES any warranty the device may have, and goes beyond what the intended design was.
I agree with you that there is plenty that many companies get away with regarding consumer misinformation, and much more than that.
This is CLEARLY not one of those situations.
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 03:22 PM
Neon V. Sony
A teleplay
written by Bionic Antboy
note:
(Interiror - Court Room - Day)
The sun is streaming through the mid-morning window, it's beams passing through the American flag hanging outside, causing the courtroom to be bathed in gently rippling waves of red, white and blue. The courtroom is already full, everyone is in their place. Justice is going to served today. You can feel the tension in the air.
JUDGE
So this is the case of Neon V. Sony.
Whats the problem here.
NEON:
Your Honour, I was at an authorized
Sony retailer, and they demonstrated
a model that had Flash Mem. The next
day I bought a unit which didn't. Sony
changed the type of memory in the TG50
so additional RAM can't be accessed.
(Judge then asks to have all the technical details of Flashable vs Non Flashable memory explained to her).
SONY LEGAL INTERN:
Your Honour. Changing the type of
memory in the TG50 in no way affects
the intended use of the device. In fact,
by accessing this extra memory, the
plaintiff is voiding his warranty, and
attempting to use the device in a way
that the product wasn't meant to be used.
We never advertised Flash memory. We
never told the retailer to advertise it as such
either. In fact, we know that certain terrorist
groups have tried modifying their handheld
devices to hold bombs, and suspect that the
plaintiff may, in fact be a terrorist, trying to
extract money from our company to further
his evil cause.
(beat)
CUT TO: Everyone in the viewing gallery, eagerly anticipating the Judge's reaction. Sweat trickles of many a brow in the stuffy courtroom.
CUT TO: The Judge, picking up her gavel.
JUDGE:
Case dismissed.
The gallery explodes in a mixes of cheers and jeers.
JUDGE:
(indicating Neon)
Bailiff, take that man away.
NEON:
This is an outrage.
JUDGE:
Sorry, this is the Patriot Act II. Too bad
you spend all your legal efforts on something
so trivial as this memory issue.
NEON:
D'oh!
Fade OUT:
Roll credits.
THE END.
T1000X
06-05-2003, 03:57 PM
Have you ever thought for a second that Sony would offer an OS upgrade to go into Flash for any of their models? The only OS update they offered was for OS4 upgrade on the N710C to upgrade it from OS3.5. Sony has developed a history of putting out new models then putting out OS updates. Besides, when you use the FlashROM to store data in you are technically voiding the warranty so why does it matter? Yes, there is a matter of prinicpal, but ask yourself if Sony has ever exhibited any interest or concern for their customers/consumers?
I've grown to realize that Sony is cranking out the various models so quickly so they don't have to worry about continued support or with providing anything then mandatory updates. Sure, they've released some patches and fixes along those lines but that's as far as they'll go with supporting their handhelds.
Fortunately, I do not have my TG50 anymore (long story) so I really wouldn't be of any help in the suit. I do wish those who try to sue best of luck though.
FYI for all TG50 owners. I received this unfortunate message from Brayden. It appears that Sony's own SOS emails to me and sonystyle itself confirming that the TG50 has 16 MB of Flash ROM.
Q: Will there ever be a version of JackFlash that will be compatible with the Flash ROM that is supposed to be in the TG50 per Sony SOS and SonyStyle but which says there is no Flash ROM present when using JackFlash lite?
A: Unfortunately, no. We won't ever be able to support
these devices. Instead of Flash ROM, Sony uses
Mask ROM with these devices. Mask ROM cannot
be changed--making our products useless.
Alistar
06-05-2003, 04:34 PM
You need to prove that Sony specifically advertised or directed their retailers that they could advertise that the device carried flash rom.
They did not advertise that the device had flash rom, therefore you can't complain when it doesn't.
The device does however have all the specs and features as advertised (it only advertise 16MB ROM not flash rom).
Our point, which you seem to have constantly overlooked is that Sony did not advertise that it had Flash ROM or that a third party product could be used to access said ROM.
The fact that they changed the actual part is irrelevant (do you understand the word irrelevant).
They do not want you to screw around with their product, the fact that they eliminated the possiblity does not mean you have a legal precedence.
If you continue to pursue this and acutally win, I will have to spend the rest of my life working towards destroying the planet as it is a sad sad day when this sort of pathetic consumerism is allowed.
(Please note the extravagant point, I have no actual plan to destory the planet)
Do not respond to my post as I will no longer be readin this because I can no longer bear to listen your inane babling.
AcuraCL
06-05-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Alistar
Do not respond to my post as I will no longer be readin this because I can no longer bear to listen your inane babling.
Now THIS makes sense. Some people need to learn the value of valium and OCD therapy.
Alistar - The only inane babbling that we seem to be hearing is the self-important stupidity coming from you and Antboy (now a playwright). Are you guys all ADD and obsessive compulsive??? Now you're telling us what has to be proven as though you've ever been in court?
The fact that **Sony authorized reps** orally and in writing confirmed it and sent me written confirmations of the Flash ROM is more than sufficient!!
Everyone here knows EXACTLY why Sony did this except for you and Anteater. It isn't a diabolical plan to screw anyone specifically. It's all about making more money even if it's legally, morally, and ethically wrong. Sure, we are only talking about a personal organizer and not smoking or faulty fuel lines that causes auto explosions. But that's why Sony has a better chance of getting away with it than something more egregious. The bottom line is still that all of us are getting screwed because it's worth their risk to mislead us and screw us because most will just give up trying to fight it...
But you're the idiot who tries to justify what Sony does. Just shut up and let people not happy about what Sony did with the TG50 do what we can. let them just contact me and hopefully somebody might make some effort just once...
ashVID
06-05-2003, 05:24 PM
I thought maybe Neon was BSing about being a lawyer but his insulting, demeaning, higher than thou, stubborn tone seems to confirm that he indeed may be a lawyer, albeit, not a very good one.
Just for fun I had a friend who used to be an attourney for Sony, now works in the private sector and has much disdain for Sony and their strongarm tactics, look at this thread. He said that you can argue anything but made the point that if you can't convince those who have been wronged (according to you) that they have been wronged then how could you possibly convince a judge? He said it was a case he wouldn't touch, has no legitimate merit and that Neon seems like someone venting, emotionally flared and indignant, ignoring the true merits of a case where nobody has been damaged or wronged.
On a personal note, your insults and stubborn indignation are not helping you. Return your TG50 and go buy a Palm to log your ambulance chasing adventures...
ash =o)
T1000X
06-05-2003, 05:45 PM
LOL! Good response ash! Couldn't agree with you more. Oh, and I have switched to a Palm and I don't plan on chasing ambulances. ;-)
Originally posted by ashVID
I thought maybe Neon was BSing about being a lawyer but his insulting, demeaning, higher than thou, stubborn tone seems to confirm that he indeed may be a lawyer, albeit, not a very good one.
So, you decided to insult me and my professional work, as though you know something about that too. And now you're the authority teaching us about manners? Talk about ridiculous. Ambulance chaser? Do you even know how many different types of lawyers they are? Let me guess, you think a cardiologist is a doctor just the same as an optometrist... and what exactly do you guys do that makes all of you so knowledgeable?
Demeaning and insulting is when you and others talk as though you can have years of experience without ever having even done any of what you claim to be an expert upon. Have respect, listen, ask questions. Don't conclude first and then tell someone else they are wrong. Sure sign of arrogance.
Rude is when a problem doesn't concern you so you make a nuisance of yourself and tell all of us to 'get over it.' I'm mad like many others who feel the same way. If you have nothing nice to say, keep it to yourself.
When SONY ITSELF sends me confirmation emails about the TG50 Flash ROM, don't tell me that I have to rely on anything else. How many people do you know wouldn't trust Sony's own SOS and Sonystyle who insist on a spec? Unfortunately, after that confirmation, I bought it from a retailer who wants to charge a restocking fee to take it back...
I've come to one conclusion... many people buying CLIE's here know a lot more about Gameboy and Playstation then they do about life. Living out sad, self-righteous lives vicariously, hoping to feel good by seeming to think that they came out "on top" by just trying to rip or flame others for their ostensible stupidity. Wait until you are mad about something and others like you try to stamp out your fire, causing nobody to understand what you were trying to say... you'll learn. Fortunately for me it's just a TG50...
Sony should thank you three for going on a rampage to let all CLIE owners know that they should just accept being screwed bu Sony and that they should stamp out any effort of someone mad enough who might actually be able to do something... maybe even make a dent in the system. At least I tried in good faith to make some effort to make it stop. That's a worthwhile try... It's more than I can say for you.
UZI4U182
06-05-2003, 06:20 PM
I thought maybe Neon was BSing about being a lawyer but his insulting...
http://www.cliesource.com/gallery/data/500/603bskey.jpg
Don M
06-05-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by neon
Fortunately for me it's just a TG50...
Neon. You sure have a lot of time on your hands for these long diatribes which is only digging you deeper into the BS hole. Do you not have any legitimate/important cases to defend? To get this upset about a personal organizer is really amazing.
Take it back, as per the below, buy another brand, get over your childish tantrum and forget about it.
Neon said..."My retailer is debating about whether to take back my unit without trying to charge me a 15% restocking fee."
Bionic Antboy
06-05-2003, 07:22 PM
Hey Neon:
I find it quite humourous that you feel you can use lines like "antbrain" and "The only inane babbling that we seem to be hearing is the self-important stupidity coming from you and Antboy"
but as soon as anyone lays the same smack down on you, the whining and kvetching just never stops. If you'd stop upchucking this garbage over and over, maybe you'd be able to make your case more clearly.
Oh, let's not forget that Neon STILL hasn't addressed the crux of the matter. Sounds like Neon would have more of an aptitude towards a job in a company PR division than a legal one. I could imagine him as a trial lawyer....
----
NEON: Your Honour, the defendant did it. Screw evidence, he's just a pea-braind ADD afflicted MTV watching mouthbreather who blows goats. See!!! I'm right!!! I don't CARE if the defence has video of someone else committing the crime. ANd by the way, I demand access to more memory on my PDA.
----
ashVID: I don't like to pick too much on lawyers, I know some good ones, too - well A good one, which is batting .333 for the ones I know personally. :)
Don M: I agree with you. If the darned thing is giving him so much grief, maybe he should just take it back. I'd probably suggest a PPC in Neon's case, however ;)
Don M
06-05-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
....I'd probably suggest a PPC in Neon's case, however ;)
Yep, get him off of the Palm OS forums. :D
PDA gadgetfreak
06-05-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by neon
When SONY ITSELF sends me confirmation emails about the TG50 Flash ROM, don't tell me that I have to rely on anything else. How many people do you know wouldn't trust Sony's own SOS and Sonystyle who insist on a spec? Unfortunately, after that confirmation, I bought it from a retailer who wants to charge a restocking fee to take it back...
I've come to one conclusion... many people buying CLIE's here know a lot more about Gameboy and Playstation then they do about life. Living out sad, self-righteous lives vicariously, hoping to feel good by seeming to think that they came out "on top" by just trying to rip or flame others for their ostensible stupidity. Wait until you are mad about something and others like you try to stamp out your fire, causing nobody to understand what you were trying to say... you'll learn. Fortunately for me it's just a TG50...
Do you have a right to feel wronged? Sure you do (especially considering the mentioned Sony emails).
Should Sony have announced the change? I don't think so, they never advertised the usability of the Flash ROM. Especially since using it would violate your warranty.
Is it worth a class action lawsuit for approx. $60 in restocking fees (since that seems to be one of the sore spots). For me, I don't think so.....but that's just my opinion.
I've read all seven pages of posts and the personal attacks (from many sides) are nuts. Everyone should be able to express their opinions passionately without personal insults.
n2ifp
06-05-2003, 09:43 PM
I must say this whole thread has been somewhat entertaining, but I have to agree with PDAgadgetfreak about the personal attacks.
I take no position, the reason, is nothing surprises me anymore! People can now sue for there own stupidity and make money from it. The spilled coffee at McDonalds is a classic one. Then again there is a first time for everything. There have been suits won over how a computer monitor's screen should be measured. All this just leaves me to pause and think. The point is just because the whole industry does it, doesn't mean that it can't be challenged. If Neon wants to go after Sony, that's fine by me, he has to only convince a jury that he has been wronged. If he can make the case, God bless him! I would like to see Sony be knocked down a peg or too as it is, just because of it's arrogance!
Now, with that being said, please fight nice :)!
the_tick
06-05-2003, 09:44 PM
I'm probably adding fuel to the fire . . . oh well. :D
Normally, in the manual, warranty, specifications listing, or where ever, there is fine print stating that specification are subject to change. I never bother to look for this fine print, but usually assume that it is the case.
For example, RadioShack usually has the following statements when listing specifications to any of their products:
"Specifications are typical; individual units might vary. Specifications
are subject to change and improvement without notice."
I've seen variance of this statement with all sorts of household products and electronics. If sony has printed any such statements, then they're pretty much protected.
the_tick
06-05-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by n2ifp
People can now sue for there own stupidity and make money from it. The spilled coffee at McDonalds is a classic one. Then again there is a first time for everything. There have been suits won over how a computer monitor's screen should be measured. All this just leaves me to pause and think.
Spike Lee suing TNN over the new name "SpikeTV" :)
psychoactivist
06-05-2003, 09:49 PM
There is nothing on Sony Style that mentions anything about flash ROM on the TG50.
" Memory
16 MB (RAM)5
16 MB (ROM) " <----- just ROM, not flash ROM
So, even if it said flash ROM before they have changed it, so now they can put whatever they want in it.
Compared to the SJ33 page
" Memory
16 MB RAM (15 MB available)
4 MB Flash"
Now if you bought an American SJ33 and had masked ROM then you'd have a case.
Psychoactivist
06-05-2003, 10:01 PM
"Computer Interface: The computer industry lacks standards, and therefore, there are a multitude of varying software packages and add-on hardware options. This device is not manufactured to any specific software, and Sony does not and cannot make any warranty or representation with respect to the performance of this product with any particular software packages and/or non-Sony add-on hardware option except those mentioned in this document. Sony here-by disclaims any representations or warranty that this product is compatible with any combination of products you may choose to connect. While Sony representatives or Sony authorized dealers may be able to assist you and may make recommendations, they are NOT authorized to vary or waive this disclaimer. Purchasers must determine for themselves the suitability and compatibility of the hardware and software in each and every particular instance."
This is from the TG50 page. I thought these quotes were particularly relivent, "This device is not manufactured to any specific software, and Sony does not and cannot make any warranty or representation with respect to the performance of this product with any particular software packages ... " and later they state "While Sony representatives or Sony authorized dealers may be able to assist you and may make recommendations, they are NOT authorized to vary or waive this disclaimer."
Anyway, while I'm not in law, I would think that this would probibly cover Sony's butt.
cbulock
06-06-2003, 12:03 AM
Neon, I don't remember you mentioning that you had written confermation from Sony confirming that the TG has Flash ROM. That might be a different story. I don't think a class action lawsuit would apply though. Probably just a personal suit because they lied to you and not anyone else. But Sony certainly didn't advertise the product with flash ROM and if the people at the store told you it did, thats the stores fault, not Sonys. I guess I'm having trouble following who exactly told you it had flash ROM. Either way, I'd make sure I have a good case. Doesn't a jury cost like $70 or more if you lose?
rob_squared
06-06-2003, 12:34 AM
I'd like to take a short moment to bring up a point.
"Winning a fight on the internet is like getting the gold in the special olympics; sure you won, but you're still retarded."
n2ifp
06-06-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Psychoactivist
"Anyway, while I'm not in law, I would think that this would probibly cover Sony's butt.
Is anyone really worried about Sony's butt :D?
Unregistered
06-06-2003, 12:40 AM
wow. whats with the multiple personal attacks? bionic antboy, you are totally out of control and it makes me afraid to post here. i cant believe you took time to write nasty plays. you sound like someone who goes postal on all lawyers. my dad is a very respected lawyer for the elderly.
i think this guys has a point but you guys keep looking at something on sony style that isnt the only thing to look at. i used to work doing merchandising and we sued a couple of manufacturers. they sent us samples and we had a term sheet but while the product met the details in the sheet it was not what we were shown. we won because the court found it was a deceptive act and the term sheet was only one part of the agreement. they sent us a sample to make us think we were getting something like the sample.
i think the flash rom might be important enough for sony to have told the dealer he bought it from that the details had changed. dont know. could go either way. but i think he has a right to be mad for sure. i think marketers are more evil than lawyers.
Unregistered
06-06-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
wow. whats with the multiple personal attacks? ....... it makes me afraid to post here.
Then don't
cbulock
06-06-2003, 02:42 AM
It's really lame when people are totally losing an argument, and then log-off to act like they are some else defending there own statement. Not saying that is happening here, just saying that when it does happen, it's annoying.
Godzilla63
06-06-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by cbulock
It's really lame when people are totally losing an argument, and then log-off to act like they are some else defending there own statement. Not saying that is happening here, just saying that when it does happen, it's annoying.
Hey! ... how did you know I was doing that?
I was going to change my name to "weasel" but figured you know-it-alls would figure me out anyway... :rolleyes:
Anyway, you win some you lose some.
I'm off to yahoo now to drum up support for my new class action....
Dubya, Blair, Powell, Rumsfeld et al... you've got 30 days to hand over Iraq's WMD or we're revoking your licenses to operate heavy machinery :mad:
macktv
06-06-2003, 06:32 AM
8 pages of comments which I have to say is mostly made up of funny comments so thank you for brightening up my day.
Anyway, I think the most obvious thing here is that someone hasn't checked th terms and conditions. On pretty much every product imaginable there is a little statement that goes something along the lines of "Some parts could be subject to change without notice. For further details write to..." etc,etc.
Now I always used to hate this as it quite litterally meant that you could go in to buy a product with one colour on the front and found a different one in the box. Or that you could go and buy a stereo without RDS (lets you see the stations name etc) and end up with one that does have it. The only thing that you have to look out for is if the changes has significantly lowered the value of a product.
Now in Neon's case as I don't think Sony advertised flashable rom you really don't have a case with them. And the retailer? Well you're entitled to go back and get one that is flashable or get a refund.
sindu
06-06-2003, 07:30 AM
I don't feel being screwed by Sony but i always felt being screwed by lawyer for writting the bloody product warrantty and the fine print in the manual.
Beavis
06-06-2003, 07:51 AM
Rob_Squared:
"Winning a fight on the internet is like getting the gold in the special olympics; sure you won, but you're still retarded."
That's a low blow. My son has Down Syndrome. He hopes to be in the Special Olympics in a couple of years. Unlike us "normal" people, he doesn't care if he wins, he just wants to have fun and try to be the best he can be.
Bionic Antboy
06-06-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
wow. whats with the multiple personal attacks? bionic antboy, you are totally out of control and it makes me afraid to post here. i cant believe you took time to write nasty plays. you sound like someone who goes postal on all lawyers. my dad is a very respected lawyer for the elderly.
Sorry you feel that way, Unregistered.
The play, actually, didn't take any longer to write than the time it took to type it, and I type pretty fast. Neon being a lawyer isn't a problem for me. It's the fact that he was presenting bad legal examples (IMHO) to back up his claim, and then accusing me (along with others) of not even reading or understanding the case law he had presented. It was also the fact that he chose to initiate the insults with terms like ADD afflicted, MTV gen x something or others, and antbrain, just to mention a few, as opposed to arguing the facts of his case.
Now, I admit that I was a bit harsh on Neon, but that was only because he was with me (I know, I should have been a bigger person). If someone isn't going to extend me the common courtesy of level-headed discourse, in real life or on a forum such as this, and instead hurl personal insults, I ususally walk away, but in this case, I responded in kind. I still wanted to here some factual evidence from Neon to prove his case, but that never materialized.
That's the long and short of it.
tifosiv122
06-06-2003, 08:11 AM
neon - If I might ask what law school did you go to? They didn't do a very good job IMO...
Erik
aussie_nx70v
06-06-2003, 08:42 AM
ive read all 8 pages with great interest !
i think neon has tried to convey his case. good or bad, im so confused i dont even know ;) however let me say this. it doesnt matter if he has a case or not. what he has to do is convince a judge in a court of law. hell, he doesnt even have to have any evidence !
now in saying that what he needs to do is get people behind him and have power in numbers.
bearing that in mind i feel what he is trying to do is to get you to see his point and subsequently get on board.
however i feel he is not winning in his recruitement efforts.
ah.....crap....im getting too tired to even type this post out correctly....
i give up...
I can't believe I wasted 20 minutes of my life reading this thread. It's amazing that some people can argue so much and put so much effort into something so trivial. It would be a great service to mankind if the administrators could delete this thread so nobody else will have to waste their time reading it.
jackson
06-06-2003, 01:11 PM
After a hard day of using our PDA's (whew) - what we like best is to log on a Forum, and bait and argue with one another.
And if a few people frustrated us during the day, then we can take it out by insulting and bashing some screen name for a while.
And we can spice it up by throwing in an Unregistered comment every now and then.
That's the way we like it.
And it works for neon, as he will become a Senior Member in only one thread. That's cool.
Jackson
jackson
06-06-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Bionic Antboy
Neon V. Sony
A teleplay
written by Bionic Antboy
Bionic Antboy:
A brillant script (and funny too). I just received a call from Buick, wanting to sponsor this as a weekly TV Series. You will make millions!
Jackson
I've stopped replying because there is no point. The thread is littered with derisive comments by a very immature group with limited focus, stuck on a spec sheet which is not the only factor. Whatever. I thought I was writing to sympathetic **consumers** here. Few expect that a TG50 today would be different than the same model the next day. See http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14000
I hoped that with enough TG50 owners, it was worth a call/letter for a stab at a concession. I've done this many times before as corporate counsel where it's worth it for a company to settle and make it go away -- unfortunately less than what the victim preferred but at least it's something. Who was making money off of this? Nobody.
I was a more upset about the TG50 issue on discovery than I am now, but aren't we all consumers here who should be more sympathetic to each other? Instead, I received a bunch of immediate insults about Law and Order, living under rocks, 'you're a greedy lawyer,' lawyer jokes, inane playwriting and 'you must suck at your job' comments. I tried to explain several years of legal thinking (big mistake) and sent the name of a seminal case about liability in the chain of distribution, yet had one person tell me that every law school in the country didn't know what they were talking about because he couldn't put the pieces together and 'in my face.' Yes, it's more fun to join the mob for an immature, childish, pinada-like bashing than it is to think and be polite... how old are most people here? A simple 'I don't see the connection' comment would have sufficed. You think you 'won' the arguments? Fine, put it in your scrapbook and show it off for years to come because I really don't care.
One comment about the 'greedy lawyers' and the lack of people giving some smart people some benefit of the doubt and reading more than just sensational headlines. With regard to the McDonald's case, I too was appalled. But gave the smart people some deference...
If I remember correctly, McDonald's was warned several times that their coffee was much hotter than it should have been to be safe (I think over 10 dg.) but they did nothing. The old woman plaintiff who had placed the coffee between her legs in the car, which spilled, did a dumb thing... sure. But she deserve to get *severely* burned instead of just suffering a hot coffee burn? Both parties shared in the blame... $2 million? Ridiculous but it was a jury of your peers that agreed on that amount. Don't blame me (I don't do injury or criminal defense) or the lawyers. Also, I believe the judge threw out the verdict amount as excessive.
n2ifp
06-06-2003, 05:41 PM
The McDonald's thing was not intended to be a slap towards you, the point I was trying to make is that these days, anything is possible, that's all.
Unregistered
06-06-2003, 06:33 PM
I waiting to see an apology for the insult regarding the special olympics and those who are considered "retarded" by the uninformed.
Of course, considering who wrote it, I doubt that will happen. Seems some people think slurs against those with mental challenges is ok.
n2ifp
06-06-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I waiting to see an apology for the insult regarding the special olympics and those who are considered "retarded" by the uninformed.
Of course, considering who wrote it, I doubt that will happen. Seems some people think slurs against those with mental challenges is ok.
Or think they are better than everyone else. I know who you are referring to and also know who you are. I agree that it was an insensitive comment to make.
Bionic Antboy
06-06-2003, 11:14 PM
I ain't gonna say anything...
Okay, I lied...
I'm willing to say I'm sorry, Neon, if you took any offence when I wrote that script. I won't bother listing the insults hurled at me that ellicited it, as it's all in the first couple of pages of the thread.
I STILL disagree with citing MacPherson V. Buick as the backbone of your legal argument, however, and never recieved a clear explanation as to why you believe that it is. We're probably way beyond that now, however.
What a long strange crazy trip it's been
rob_squared
06-06-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I waiting to see an apology for the insult regarding the special olympics and those who are considered "retarded" by the uninformed.
Of course, considering who wrote it, I doubt that will happen. Seems some people think slurs against those with mental challenges is ok.
You're absolutely right...
...you're not getting an apology.
I also find it fascinating that of all the people who directly insult eachother that you chose to come after me. And I'm tired of being politically correct.
Feel free to reply, I won't be listening.
ashVID
06-07-2003, 03:09 AM
Everyone is just overly sensitive, this is the internet....breathe.... That little voice that keeps from blurting something out to the incompetent waiter at Applebee's doesn't translate to the keyboard. I am not about to apologize to Neon, I was giving him a hard time. I am just a lowly gameboy (advance SP) playing, MTV generation, uneducated ignoramous, why should what I say bother him??
In the future Neon you are better to be more constructive rather than trying to attack us with a barrage of pontification and insults. The world is cynical and lawyers see things differently. My wife bought some bread today and it was moldy, she didnt notice until she took a bite, then she threw up. A lawyer may think she can/should sue the store, breadmaker, distributor, etc. As for me? I called the store and asked for a new loaf of bread (WITH Flash Jam).
ash =o)
Unregistered
06-07-2003, 06:33 AM
Right on, AshVID. Run off at the mouth here and avoid getting the a$$ kicked in the real world.
robrecht
06-07-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by neon
I've stopped replying because there is no point. The thread is littered with derisive comments by a very immature group with limited focus ... I thought I was writing to sympathetic **consumers** here. ... aren't we all consumers here who should be more sympathetic to each other? Instead, I received a bunch of immediate insults about Law and Order, living under rocks, 'you're a greedy lawyer,' lawyer jokes, inane playwriting and 'you must suck at your job' comments.
Sorry, Neon, if my lawyer joke offended you so much. Hope I won't be named in your lawsuit. Good luck in your efforts at "extracting Pain from the wrongdoer."
Unregistered
06-07-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Right on, AshVID. Run off at the mouth here and avoid getting the a$$ kicked in the real world. Iread the thread. ashVID and everyone did their share of dishing and blaming it all on neon is just as bad. I think that neons problem is that he tried to exchange the loaf of bread but was going to be charged a big restocking fee to do so. unfortunately nobody knows what tg50 works with JF and what doesnt and it looks like sony will not stop dumping garbage all over us for what prob doesnt amout to much.
so i can understand why he was angry and maybe a bit over the top. reading the apologies are funny too with the backhanded jabs. it Doesnt matter since we should prob be a little more cool about things all the way around.
Don M
06-07-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
...I think that neons problem is that he tried to exchange the loaf of bread but was going to be charged a big restocking fee to do so....
I don't understand why neon isn't more upset with the retailer about the restock fee. If the product was misrepresented to him (by the retailer and/or Sony), then the retailer should give him his full money back as he did not get what was represented that he was getting. And, if they do not give back the money, then I would not buy from them anymore. I don't buy a thing from Circuit City any longer over a 15% restock issue I had with them. I didn't try to sue HP. I had a similar situation with Best Buy once on a laptop computer. I had to fight them for it by getting the manager involved, but I did get my money back. Like I said before, I would recommend just getting the money back and buying a different brand. Just don't buy from Sony any longer. Get over it and move on to more important issues you surely have in your life neon. But, then again, being a lawyer, I guess the first thing that comes to mind is to sue, even in such a grey area situation as this. I get so sick and tired of people yelling they are going to sue over the drop of a hat! It's not like you were rear-ended on the freeway and have a "neck injury" like everyone always gets when rear-ended...right? ;)
neon wrote: "My retailer is debating about whether to take back my unit without trying to charge me a 15% restocking fee."
Unregistered
06-07-2003, 11:44 AM
Neon...lighten up. You decided to make your case public here, in front of a jury of your Clié peers, and your argument didn't fly. Do you denegrate the members of an actual courtroom jury, or a judge that has ruled against your position? Sony changed the specs of the model in question, without impacting the stated features, functionality and performance of the device. The only thing that was affected is an UNSUPPORTED feature, that Sony has no obligation to support.
I know I am repeating what has been said various times in this thread...but seriously...can you not see how silly your argument seems...and how silly you look defending this position with your condescending tone? Maybe a little more humility from the members of your profession would improve the general public's opinion of your kind.
Oh, and by the way, it's spelled:
piņata...
PalmDoc
06-07-2003, 06:43 PM
Oooops...sorry! I was replying from my Treo, and forgot to sign in above.
And, yes neon, my handle PalmDoc means I am a physician...but I don't hate lawyers.
With regard to the unregistered posters who refuse to let up, I will only remind that Sony's own customer/tech support representatives sent me information in writing confirming the flash RAM in the TG50 and I acted upon it. Let's not rehash again your insistence of wanting to RAM the point home that you want to prove how bright you are in showing everyone how you have proven how wrong you think I am. end of discussion. Many of us have a difference of opinion and many have also written who feel the same as I. That's fine and we are all entitled to our own perspective.
With regard to the retailer... they offered a compromise in cutting the restocking fee in half. They felt bad about what happened but are blaming Sony for not informing them about changes in spec and that any problem should be taken up with them since they control how their product is manufactured and how they share information. I'm going to keep the TG50 because it isn't worth it to send it back and I need a replacement Palm. Other than the paltry memory it does a lot of things well and I've cooled off from being hot under the collar from Sony confirming a total lie to me...
I will say this much for CLIE owners... it seems that Sony is locking up much of the CLIE and perhaps we should expect serious disappointment all the way around with regard to future flexibility. Several other manufacturers seem to have expressed the same sentiment with regard to multimedia. I can guess that this approach, ala the new Mask ROM, may not only be cheaper but may be a way of extracting more cash from 'partners' who will have exclusive or semi-exclusive entry into the CLIE market and/or will have eyeballs for their product due to the fact that you will no longer will be able to delete their crappy, lousy apps out of the ROM and replace them with something useful. Thus, the multitude of offerings that may be available for Palm devices might be limited and not available to the CLIEs. Sad, but thankfully Palm is getting closer to waking up might be able to give Sony the best face slap that none of us could give to them... (but still, what is with that stupid call of no stereo on the T | C?)
Good night everyone and thank you for many of your follow up comments.
Don M
06-07-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by neon
Good night everyone and thank you for many of your follow up comments.
You are definitely welcome! Glad you seem to finally be "getting over it" a bit. That is progress. I still think that the retailer should have had the flexibility to give the full amount back in such a case as this. Almost sounds like Circuit City to me. Best Buy has been great for the most part. I think they still have a 2 week or so return policy on PDA's, but not sure as I have not purchased a PDA recently.
As far as your comment of "With regard to the unregistered posters who refuse to let up," if you go back through the thread, you will see a number of unregistered users in "support" as well, so it is not only the "bad guys" who were unregistered. <g>
In any case, you have a great machine there and hope you enjoy it.
cbulock
06-08-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by neon
With regard to the unregistered posters who refuse to let up, I will only remind that Sony's own customer/tech support representatives sent me information in writing confirming the flash RAM in the TG50 and I acted upon it. Let's not rehash again your insistence of wanting to RAM the point home that you want to prove how bright you are in showing everyone how you have proven how wrong you think I am. end of discussion. Many of us have a difference of opinion and many have also written who feel the same as I. That's fine and we are all entitled to our own perspective.
If you are wondering why there is so much confussion over this, you don't even begin to mention anything about contacting Sony until the bottom of the second page of this thread. Then you don't really specify anything, you just kinda mention it. Reading the thread back from the beginning, it almost seems like either your story is changing, or you left out a lot of important details at the beginning. Just telling you this because there is a reason why people are not understanding this point.
n2ifp
06-08-2003, 05:49 AM
IMHO, This is like beating a dead horse :D!
n2ifp -- couldn't agree more. Sometimes its tought to get the whole story out in one shot which is why you inquire... but who cares at this point. We've gotten it all out and unfortunately we know the truth.
Just FYI to all the people out there who use foreign language localization with their CLIEs, not having Flash is also unfortunate. One of the main reasons I wanted the flash was to use it with penreader's/paragon's language products. They make use of the Flash ROM. Ah well... what can we do. Just hope that Palm smacks Sony's arrogant face due to the increase in CLIE sales to give them a rude awakening...
euroclie
06-08-2003, 12:27 PM
Hi neon,
First of all, I do understand your frustration and anger in this problem. As a matter of fact, Sony's reputation for customer service is terrible and speaks for itself. Now I'm not a lawyer, I don't even live in the US so I won't comment on the "legal" point of view of your problem...
Originally posted by neon
Sony's own authorized reps will sell you JackFlash in retail outlets and tell you it's the same TG50 because they thought so
First of all, Sony's own reps would certainly never sell you JackFlash in retail outlets (assuming it was available in retail outlets, which I don't think it is), as they wouldn't encourage people in playing with the FlashROM of their Sony unit. Remember that if you ever crash your Clie while playing with the FlashROM, or after having made use of it, you'll lose Sony's warranty as they do not support a device which ROM content has been modified.
Also, if you were at least remotely interested in running JackFlash on your device, then you'd have browsed Brayder's web site (http://www.brayder.com/products/jackflash.html) on which they clearly state:
Does Your Palm Have Free Flash?
Currently the Palm Tungsten C, Tungsten T, Tungsten W, m500, m505, m515, i705, III, IIIc, IIIx, IIIxe, V, Vx, Handera TRGPro, Kyocera 6035, and Sony Clie (except some SL10, SJ20, SJ22, SJ30 and TG50) all ship with Flash ROM and have enough free space to run JackFlash.
So this would be no surprise to you that some TG50 devices are not equipped with FlashROM.
OK, I know I'm playing devil's advocate, but on Sony's documentation, there's no mention of FlashROM when they describe the TG50. Even on Sony's Japanese website (which I have always found to be much more accurate and in-depth for its devices specs), they do not advertise the TG50 as equipped with FlashROM. On this document (http://www.sony.jp/CLIE/products/pdf/clie_0302.pdf) they explicitely write that the NZ90, NX70, NX60 and SJ33 have FlashROM and that the TG50 does NOT have FlashROM. (page 15, in the row that gives the RAM/ROM quantity for each device, there is a small Japanese word (enclosed with brackets) written under the ROM quantity for all devices except the TG50. This word means "Flash").
All in all, if Sony decides to put some FlashROM chips in some TG50 units, since it doesn't make the unit worse than the advertized specs, I guess no one should complain. Now if you buy one hoping that you'll be lucky enough to have such a device, they no one else than yourself is to blame if that's not the case. End of story.
(A few years back in time, I bought a Toshiba Libretto 70 laptop, and some of those were sold with a bigger hard drive than advertised, because of parts shortage. They were formatted and partitionned to give the user the feeling that they had the original size, but they could be repartitionned to make use of the full capacity of the drive. Now I don't see any reason why I would have sued Toshiba because I hadn't been lucky enough to buy one of those "more than advertized" units!)
Don't get me wrong: I share & understand your pain, I've struggled with FlashROM issues with my two previous Clie units, hoping that someday Sony would make use of that FlashROM chip they have put into their Clié range devices, but always ending up buying a new unit before any ROM update was available (I don't consider the N710C upgrade worthwile to mention as it wasn't available to end users as Palm ROM upgrade usualy are).
It's just that in your case, I'd have asked the salesman if I could test the unit by running the (free) "Light" version of JackFlash on the unit to make sure it has FlashROM before buying it. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a vendor near you which would accept that if you ask politely, as they'd probably be glad to know the answer for future customer questions, too. And not doing this test if JackFlash support is a key issue when considering buying the device or not is IMHO a shame...
Now maybe you can sue Sony, and get some big bucks for that (honestly I doubt it). In the end, what will they do, then? Just replace the FlashROM by plain ROM in all the future Clié devices to avoid any further problem - since they don't make use of the FlashROM anyway? :(
Although I wish it wasnt' the case, playing with the FlashROM of your device is still something that non-techies should not do (or be allowed to do) as it's potentially dangerous and definitely not supported - by Sony at least. Anyone skilled enough to be aware of that issue should also take the time to make sure where he's going and not buy its unit "blindly" knowing that maybe there won't be a FlashROM chip in it!
Again, I've nothing personal against you, and certainly don't support Sony's attitude in this lame situation, but I think people should exercice their common sense instead of their guts when facing such a situation.
Friendly yours,
Originally posted by euroclie
First of all, Sony's own reps would certainly never sell you JackFlash in retail outlets (assuming it was available in retail outlets, which I don't think it is), as they wouldn't encourage people in playing with the FlashROM of their Sony unit. I meant to say authorized dealer, who are supposed to be most informed sellers. They weren't told and thought 'hey, this TG50 is the same as the hundreds we have been selling with the JackFlash (and other apps) that we have in our store. No problem.' Well... they were not informed either.
Additionally, if you make a unit with Flash ROM, thousands in succession, and even SonyStyle and their SOS technical support line (before I decided to purchase from an authorized dealer) confirmed with me that it uses Flash ROM. Don't start pointing at some spec sheet that has played a zero part in the sale experience nor may it greatly affect the image that Sony has deliberately projected into the marketplace. Even their *authorized* dealers didn't know. I appreciate where you are coming from but there are factors that come into play regarding a manufacturer controlling the flow of information (or confusion) in the marketplace and their responsibility. Kindly, you are not really adding much new that others haven't mentioned earlier and I am not sure it pays to continue that part of the discussion.
euroclie
06-08-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by neon
Just FYI to all the people out there who use foreign language localization with their CLIEs, not having Flash is also unfortunate. One of the main reasons I wanted the flash was to use it with penreader's/paragon's language products. They make use of the Flash ROM.
Sad but true: Sony's lack of consideration for some traditionally supported locales (I mean Italian and Spanish) is a shame: you certainly know that Palm brand devices sold in Europe are "EFIGS" which stand for "English French Italian German Spanish", whereas Sony's European devices are only "EFG", even the models which still had plenty of free ROM space to put the missing locales on it. And given that 90% of the work for creating the required locales in Italian and Spanish is already done on other brand devices, it only proves Sony's lack of consideration for "foreign" users.
Of course, most of the time the lack of FlashROM is not an obstacle to a device's localization, but it's true that the RAM may be too precious for one to afford to use hundreds of Kb to store the localization stuff... :(
Ah well... what can we do. Just hope that Palm smacks Sony's arrogant face due to the increase in CLIE sales to give them a rude awakening...
Yes, I think this is the only efficient action: buying another brand, so that Sony may someday reconsider it's current attitude. As for me, unless Sony releases first a "killer" device, if I have to chose between two more or less equivalent devices to replace my NX70V, and one of them is not a Sony, I'll probably buy the other brand just because of Sony's lack of customer support!
euroclie
06-08-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by neon
I meant to say authorized dealer, who are supposed to be most informed sellers.
After spending a few years in the PalmOS world reading boards such as this one, "hacking" here and there to get to the actual information (I mean doing some reverse engineering, not illegally fetching the data from some corporate web site with unauthorized access ;)), and doing a lot of (beta)tests on my own devices, I'm pretty sure that I'm more knowledgeable than 95% of the "authorized dealer" and other "tech support staff members" from Sony or others... :cool:
The bottom line: don't you ever believe what they tell you! Only believe what you see with your own eyes. I've heard plenty of "authorized dealers" tell you that this software was compatible with that hardware, and the customer would come back later because this wasn't the case. :(
I've even been involved in a technical discussion between a salesman and a would-be customer, and I finally "convinced" the customer because I had my own device and could show him how things worked, and he bought the PDA. Once the customer was on it's way to the cashier, the salesman told me ("off records", naturally) that he was glad I'd been here to "help", as he wasn't technically skilled enough to answer all the questions! :p
Friendly yours,
Originally posted by euroclie
After spending a few years in the PalmOS world reading boards such as this one, "hacking" here and there to get to the actual information (I mean doing some reverse engineering, not illegally fetching the data from some corporate web site with unauthorized access ;)), and doing a lot of (beta)tests on my own devices, I'm pretty sure that I'm more knowledgeable than 95% of the "authorized dealer" and other "tech support staff members" from Sony or others... :cool:
LOL... true, true. This is why Sony and other companies should be held completely accountable for the misinformation (or deliberate ambiguity) they inject into the marketplace. Sony obtains compensation of some sort from vendors to become 'authorized dealers' and give the perception in the marketplace as being 'knowledgeable' on their products. Whether the act is egregious enough for the FTC to step in or to fund/try a lawsuit is another issue... the press and threat of a suit may prompt some concession but not likely and totally dependant upon the leverage...
Regardless, it's a sad place we live in when you have to go to 'unauthorized' sources to find out the truth!!!
Neon keeps reasserting a very important point that others don't seem to want to engage with: consumers have been trained to become sheep. The virulence of the reaction against him in this loong thread is amazing -- these consumers of Sony products, while openly acknowledging that Sony support blows, that consumer product companies lie left and right etc etc, have nevertheless internalized the corporate perspective to such a degree that they're outraged whenever anyone like neon loses his **** and yells, "I've had it!". It's amazing that people have come to accept this kind of behaviour from corporations. It's the real Matrix, and it has taken hold.
cbulock
06-08-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by CTO
Neon keeps reasserting a very important point that others don't seem to want to engage with: consumers have been trained to become sheep. The virulence of the reaction against him in this loong thread is amazing -- these consumers of Sony products, while openly acknowledging that Sony support blows, that consumer product companies lie left and right etc etc, have nevertheless internalized the corporate perspective to such a degree that they're outraged whenever anyone like neon loses his **** and yells, "I've had it!". It's amazing that people have come to accept this kind of behaviour from corporations. It's the real Matrix, and it has taken hold.
I certainly don't like many of the things Sony does. I also don't like the fact that they switched from using flash ROM to masked ROM. I don't own a TG50, but they could do this to other devices too, and they would suck. BUT, there is a big difference between me not liking something Sony does, and something being illegal. For some reason, some people think that if they don't like something, they must sue. I have no problem with people saying "I've had it, I'm going to buy a Palm or Pocket PC". But, saying, "I've had it, I'm going to sue" is just ridiculous.
Unregistered
06-08-2003, 03:10 PM
CTO, you are correct. Looks like when someone who will dis their family right and left but let an outsider try it and you be fried dude.
euroclie
06-08-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by CTO
Neon keeps reasserting a very important point that others don't seem to want to engage with: consumers have been trained to become sheep.
No, I don't think that anyone here has lost focus on that point: as stated by cbulock, the best solution is not necessarily to sue. I mean, why not exercise your common sense _before_ buying, instead of complaining _after_ buying (sorry, neon, this is obviously not targeting you in particular, we're going off-topic with this yet again I'm afraid :cool:). I mean, there's nothing wrong about expressing one's resentment, but why on Earth would every unpleasant thing prove illegal?
In this particular case, the feeling of many here is that unpleasant as it is, Sony's behavior may not be illegal, so sueing them may not be the most efficient way to stop this from happening again. Just stop giving them your money, fight the lust you (and I :p) feel for their flashy but somewhat crippled devices, and things will certainly change sooner than you'd expect. But no, people will still buy their products and yell, which is IMHO not the most efficient way to solve problems.
Just look at another issue on the same league as this one: the crippled CF slot on the NX70V devices. Many here yelled like crazy about this, and this certainly helped in making Sony reconsider the issue for the next generation devices (NX73V and NX80V), but it amounted to nothing for NX70V users, as Sony didn't give us anything at all! (And unless I'm mistaken Sony wasn't even sued in the process...)
Now, supporting third-party initiatives like Eruware's proved the most efficient way to get the problem solved for NX70V owners...
It's amazing that people have come to accept this kind of behaviour from corporations. It's the real Matrix, and it has taken hold.
Yes, it's amazing that people, knowing the terrible customer support of Sony (or the lack thereof), still purchase Sony devices and come here to complain... One would think that reading the horror stories on ClieSource would be enough to make any sensible customer stay away from Sony's products! ;)
macktv
06-08-2003, 06:26 PM
"Please note that, due to continued efforts to improve quality, the software specifications may be changed without notice" Sony Add-on App guide page 2. Now I would imagine that Sony would put flashable ROM under this, given the fact that it would be a software feature of the memory.
The manuals that are supplied by them include all of the features that the CLIE should have, in other words they can't say they have one thing when they don't. So if it doesn't say anything about Flashable ROM in there then they don't have to do it. In fact it could be seen that Sony is actually giving a bit of a bonus by including it in some models. Kinda like a special edition.
The shop assistant told you it was flashable. Shops fault. Sony can give the shops all the training but it's up to the retailer to make sure that they don't mislead their customers e.g. if a shop told you a toy gun was a real one and you bought it, you wouldn't go back to the makers and blame them for making it look like a gun. They know what it is and it says what it is on the box, the fact that you were told something else is nothing to do with them.
And finally, you say someone from Sony told you it was flashable. Did you take the name of the person you spoke to? Sony would just say that they were wrongly informed. If you ask hard enough you might get a free CLIE out of it. Bottom line is the courts would throw this out in an instant once they've taken a look at the facts.
I hope I've been helpful.
Originally posted by euroclie No, I don't think that anyone here has lost focus on that point: the best solution is not necessarily to sue. I mean, why not exercise your common sense _before_ buying, instead of complaining _after_ buying
I hear you. But I think you both really miss the main broad picture and point that CTO is emphasizing -- respectfully. No consumer should have to go through so many hoops and ladders just to get the simple truth before you buy. It is Sony CONTROLLING the information flow we get in the public (in matrix language, choice is an illusion if someone is in control of the flow of information... good point although I didn't care for the movie!)
As you yourself said, euroclie "I'm more knowledgeable than 95% of the "authorized dealer" and other "tech support staff members" from Sony or others... " and you never rely on what ony or tech support tells you. WHY is that? It is ludicrous when the company making the product is not a reliable source to tell you what is in it!!!! It is SONY's responsibility to make sure that its own people are consistent, that the information to its own "authorized" dealers is full disclosure, and not your responsbility to make sure that they aren't providing you with information that could be misleading and check *every* source that Sony may have, guessing which one to believe.
Funny thing -- I got the same information you did from third party sites who said the TG50 has always been manufactured with Flash ROM. I got that information confirmed from Sony itself!!! I called SOS and SonyStyle and the *authorized* retailer. If Sony made 500,000 TG50s and then, without a word, changed something that could be of some importance and Flash ROM is, but didn't tell any of the information sources that something changed and they continue to state it's the SAME TG50... you don't find that causing confusion in the marketplace? What would it have taken for Sony to just make a note, slightly change the model number, provide a minor press release? It is their responsibility since they control the flow of information -- and having been corp counsel I can tell you that many companies will flout the law because they know they will never get caught for it (too tough to sue) and that consumers will eventually accept the inevitability that they will get screwed but are helpless to do anything.
Originally posted by cbulock
I certainly don't like many of the things Sony does. I also don't like the fact that they switched from using flash ROM to masked ROM. I don't own a TG50, but they could do this to other devices too, and they would suck. BUT, there is a big difference between me not liking something Sony does, and something being illegal. For some reason, some people think that if they don't like something, they must sue. I have no problem with people saying "I've had it, I'm going to buy a Palm or Pocket PC". But, saying, "I've had it, I'm going to sue" is just ridiculous.
Sigh... politely... do you realize that your post is exactly the limited focus that CTO was talking about? Why are you accepting the fact that when Sony produced hundreds of thousands of TG50s with Flash ROM and then, without without informing anyone in their chain of distribution who is involved in the information flow to the public, now produce it with Masked ROM? It doesn't just 'suck.' It's despicable and it would take a *minimum* effort (responsibility) to compel corps like Sony to ensure that spec changes that may be reasonably important to consumers are noted. Unfortunately there is a huge lobby by corps and big business to limit the amount of information you SHOULD know and SHOULD be told so that the legal line is blurred and provides too little protection to those that need it most -- you and me, Joe consumer. The cost of providing 'wiggle room' is never so that they could provide you with something 'better' -- if it were better than the spec than you wouldn't be complaining!!!!
Threatening to sue wakes someone up and starts the process of negotiation. 95% of such talk never gets to court and is designed to attract someone's attention in a place of power. I was hoping that consumers here should realize that the point isn't whether or not they think (or "KNOW") I'll win or lose, but if I do have some point than rally behind your fellow consumer and compel Sony to provide full disclosure because we won't take it and will buy Palms instead!!!
Why can't I go out and by a Palm or PocketPC? Because I've already spent the money I had to purchase on an item that I thought was the same one sold to my friend yesterday...
Don M
06-08-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by macktv
The shop assistant told you it was flashable. Shops fault. Sony can give the shops all the training but it's up to the retailer to make sure that they don't mislead their customers e.g.
Exactly. That's why I say the retailer should not squabble over the 15% restock fee and refund the full amount. Anway, that's my take on it. A situation I had with Best Buy a long time ago was that I bought a laptop computer. Before I purchased it, I asked if there was a return policy. The person selling me the unit said, yes it was a 15 day full-refund return policy. So, I bought the laptop. That night I noticed it had a bunch of bad pixels in one area of the screen. So, the next day I took it back and was going to get a replacement. Unfortunately they did not have any more of that model and I didn't want any of the other models, so I said that I would just like to return it. The person in returns said that there was a 15% restock fee. I said that is not what the sales person told me before I bought it. The lady then showed me on the back of the receipt where the full refund applied to desktop computers and not to laptops. My bad, I simply had taken the sales person's word for it rather than reading the fine print myself....strong lesson learned there. Fortunately, the sales person had actually written on the receipt that it could be returned for a full refund. After arguing with the lady in returns, about how their sales people need to be educated on their products and policies, she then got the manager involved and he did authorize a full refund. So, story ended well, but it could have gotten nastier, that's for sure! Bottom line, is to not believe that the sales people are giving you the gospel truth and do ALL of the research beforehand. This was MY responsibility and luckily it turned out OK. Had the sales person not written the note on the receipt, I would have been out of luck I am sure. So, likewise in neon's case, and if I were neon, I would be livid with the retailer about them not giving me the option for a full-refund....IMHO.
Don M
06-08-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by neon
Why can't I go out and by a Palm or PocketPC? Because I've already spent the money I had to purchase on an item that I thought was the same one sold to my friend yesterday...
neon, you are absolutely beating this horse to death now. Bottom line has been stated to you over and over again that Sony does not have to provide Flash Rom to meet the specs of the product. Some SJ30s have Flash Rom, mine doesn't. That was the chance I took when I bought it and I wasn't about to ask the retail store to open several boxes to find me one that had Flash Rom. But, my SJ30 still meets Sony's specs and that is ALL I can wish for and the unit works perfectly to Sony's specs. And, you can't expect Sony or any other manufacterer to force the retailer to know every little detail about their products. What do you expect them to do, come by every day with updated spec sheets and give the sales people a test? How can you expect the sales people to know EVERY detail about every product they sell, beyond what is included with the product that is delivered to their store. That is just asking too much, IMO.
You already spent the money, but, again, why don't you go back to the retailer and "demand" ALL of your money back if you feel you were mislead and threaten to sue them. I just don't understand why you persist with this and apparently can't understand what many here have been trying to get through to you ;-)
macktv
06-08-2003, 07:11 PM
The simple fact is that do you really think that when you walk into a Best Buy in the USA or DIxons in the UK that the sales assistants are gonna know everthing about the 1000s or products that they have? No of course not which is why I definitely agree with you Don, you just can't trust everything that they say. i don have to say here though that here in the UK we seem to have much better consumer law than you do and there would never be an issue of a 15% restocking fee for any reason. In fact the law over just got even better where the retailer now has to be the one to prove the product was working prior to purchase, where as before it used to be the consumers responsibility which is obviously very difficult.
And Neon, i'd imagine that the reason you're continuing your argument after everything I've pointed out to you is simple because you've desided to avoid the facts. I've already giving you the direct statement from the Sony's T & Cs that clears them of changing that and I've also made it quite clear to you that if in fact Sony has been using flashable ROM when they never put it in their submitted product specs then if you took it to court the judge could just tell them to stop doing it period as they've been giving people a little extra which has caused some confusion and so they should go back to their original specs.
Neon if you expect to be taken seriously you have to at least refute all of the reasonable objections put forth to you by other Cliesource members. I mean that is why you started this whole thing right, to see what the rest of us would say.
Originally posted by Don M
Exactly. That's why I say the retailer should not squabble over the 15% restock fee and refund the full amount. Anway, that's my take on it....Bottom line, is to not believe that the sales people are giving you the gospel truth and do ALL of the research beforehand. This was MY responsibility and luckily it turned out OK. Had the sales person not written the note on the receipt, I would have been out of luck I am sure. So, likewise in neon's case, and if I were neon, I would be livid with the retailer about them not giving me the option for a full-refund....IMHO.
Don, macktv, respectfully -- you too are missing the big picture, and this is the last time I post because it seems we are falling into the same small focus spiral. Sony authorizes retailers like BestBuy (I think they are) so that you, Joe consumer, are supposed to think that the premium you may pay at that store is because they are RELIABLE information by its affiliation with Sony. It is supposed to give you, Joe Consumer, the confidence to buy at these locations. Whether or not you think the sales guy is an idiot is irrelevant, especially if the sales guy was not an idiot and gave me the best info he knows! He did! In the past they sold TG50s and JackFlash and language localization packages... no problem! This wasn't the authorized retailer's mistake.
The fact is that my authorized retailer had no clue about the Flash ROM change because Sony never told them or anyone else. They are claiming that it is Sony who is the bad person because Sony withheld the information from them so my beef is with Sony! I don't blame the retailer for that logic. They gave me the best info they had and the manner in which they do business is normal. They don't (and shouldn't) have to run to a spec sheet and say "while all 10,000,000 we sold work with XYZ localization and JackFlash, we state unequivocally that we cannot and will not be responsible whether or not your particular TG50 will work with those applications since we are unable to tell whether or not Sony will make any changes that may affect the compatibility of these applications now or in the future so any and all software you buy is at your own risk and my not be compatible with every other unit we sell." Ridiculous. THIS is why the law and lawyers bother me more than a threat of a class action -- because the law is supposed to protect people in how they normally carry on business and not be used as a shield to hide behind in this manner. The spec sheet is NOT a contract. It is just one source of information that has been contradicted by Sony's own SOS and Sonystyle people. If someone buys from SonyStyle based upon the oral representation of a Sony representative, IT DOES NOT MATTER that the spec sheet said something different, especially if it was never a factor in why the consumer purchased!!!! It's common sense!!!
And Don, I DID do my homework in confirming this with Sony and Sonystyle. In fact, I'd say that I did more than the average consumer. Sony should be held responsible for not informing us or any of its *authorized sources* in the smallest fashion, e.g. small release note, news blurb, etc. It amazes me that you, Joe Consumer who is out of the loop of information, should be required to spiral through information to get to the truth. Why shouldn't Sony be REQUIRED to let us know when they make changes, especially when other AUTHORIZED sources of information may give us the misimpression?
Note: If Sony's own SOS technical support AND SonyStyle are both telling me that the TG50 still has Flash ROM... what the heck am I supposed to believe?
If this isn't clear enough... I give up in explaining here and will see how many people I have and give it a college try. Until then, I sincerely hope that people at ClieSource start thinking like consumers and band together to try to understand the common goals that I think we should strive for.... regardless if you think we should inevitably get screwed... Here's for some optimisim.. :)
And wow... this has really been an interesting thread to see just how much consumers accept being given misleading information... so long as there is one source that states the truth, it doesn't matter than the same company can deliberately send out ambiguous messages.... wow
macktv
06-08-2003, 07:28 PM
Again, on Sonys T & Cs it clearly states that somethings will be changed without notice, in other words covering them for having to tell anyone about it. At that point then it's down to the retailer who didn't keep up-to-date with the latest Sony specs and what they were doing. if he had he would've realised that they weren't meant to have it in the first place and so he should've said to you "Well they it wasn't in the original specs but they seem to be including it now. It would be worth checking though to make sure as it's note a requirement". Now if he'd said that then things would've gotten a lot better for you. But he didn't. So your beef is still with the retailer. But look you have a Clie go check one of the books, it's on page 2 completely clearing Sony of any responsibilty of telling people of changes. And can someone else take a look at it just so it doesn't seem like I made this up......
Don M
06-08-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by neon
If this isn't clear enough... I give up in explaining here...
I really wish you would since you cannot see the "Big Picture" which is that no matter what "inside source" you think you have on the subtleties and extra bonuses of what might be under the hood of your purchase, but that is NOT required to meet the specs as outlined on the box that comes with the product, you will get what is outlined in the specs, and if you happen to get lucky and get one with Flash ROM (in this case), then all the better, but you got what you paid for and it is inline with the specs. Read what it says on the box and that is what you paid for. ;) I understand you are upset but do not understand why you want to take this to the extent of a lawsuit, based upon this elusive Flash ROM issue. I can see if you ended up with a monochrome screen or something like that, but I can't buy the arguments you have presented. Just not strong enough...very sorry. ;)
Originally posted by Don M
I really wish you would since you cannot see the "Big Picture" which is that no matter what "inside source" you think you have on the subtleties and extra bonuses of what might be under the hood of your purchase, but that is NOT required to meet the specs as outlined on the box that comes with the product, you will get what is outlined in the specs, and if you happen to get lucky and get one with Flash ROM (in this case), then all the better, but you got what you paid for and it is inline with the specs. Read what it says on the box and that is what you paid for. ;) I understand you are upset but do not understand why you want to take this to the extent of a lawsuit, based upon this elusive Flash ROM issue. I can see if you ended up with a monochrome screen or something like that, but I can't buy the arguments you have presented. Just not strong enough...very sorry. ;)
Sigh... so Sony's own SOS and SonyStyle employees and authorized retailers people can lie (or give misleading/ambiguous information) to you all they want about what should be in the box and so long as the box/spec sheet says nothing to back up their claims/representations... it's YOUR fault for trusting Sony and/or it's *authorized* retailers and not looking closely enough at the box's specific/ambiguous details and relying ONLY upon the box/spec sheet. We won't even discuss again who is responsible for marketplace perception....
Wow.
Wow.
Respectfully... It's hard to believe and I have my answer about consumer self-perception... it is fascinating. Thank you all for making this one of the most popularly viewed threads. :) I've heard enough... and thank you all for participating.
Don M
06-08-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by neon
Sigh... so Sony's own SOS and SonyStyle employees and authorized retailers people can lie (or give misleading/ambiguous information) to you all they want about what should be in the box and so long as the box/spec sheet says nothing to back up their claims/representations... it's YOUR fault for trusting Sony and/or it's *authorized* retailers and not looking closely enough at the box's specific/ambiguous details and relying ONLY upon the box/spec sheet. We won't even discuss again who is responsible for marketplace perception....
Wow.
Wow.
Respectfully... It's hard to believe and I have my answer about consumer self-perception... it is fascinating. Thank you all for making this one of the most popularly viewed threads. :) I've heard enough... and thank you all for participating.
No, it is probably not anyone's specific fault. You just can't expect everyone to have perfect knowledge, especially in the tech world where things change so quickly. All I am saying is that you ended up with what you apparently don't want and I think the retailer should cough up the full amount, over this confusion, and give you the refund to keep you as a loyal customer. Going to the extent of a lawsuit in this case is still baloney, IMHO, and that's all I can give you. Good luck with your lawsuit and please do report back on the outcome.
;)
By the way, not sure why you find "conusmer self-perception" so fascinating. It is based upon common sense and knowing what to expect when you go to buy a product and then not being upset if the hidden toy (Flashable ROM) was not a prize in your particular box, and then not going back and demanding to get the hidden toy that some others were lucky to get in the first place. Oh well... :D
macktv
06-08-2003, 07:58 PM
I feel the need to say here that no one said it was your fault. All we've said is that if the guy at the shope told you something then you should fight them. First port of call and all that. they gave you misleading information which directly lead to the purchase of a product which you then found out was not the fit for purpose. And that is a law term so why don'y you just do that.
Wish you luck but I can't see how you can't get what you want from the shop.
the_tick
06-08-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Don M
Had the sales person not written the note on the receipt, I would have been out of luck I am sure.
Hey Don M, I agree with what your stating. The harsh reality, is that a consumer needs to be an "informed" consumer and not believe anything the sales person tells them. Is it fair? No. But if the consumer wants to save themselves from a headache then it's the easiest way. The consumer must always remember that the sales person/customer support person is prone to making errors and that whatever they may say is to the best of their knowledge. Whenever, there is a dispute, it comes down to the contract (in your case the receipt) and/or the stores printed policy (either on the receipt or available separately as a brochure or on a poster above the customer returns desk). Unless you can provide proof that an error was made on their part (i.e. false claims about the product) or that an agreement was made in lieu of the original contract, then the contract stands. In your case, you were lucky that the sales person had written the new agreement on the receipt, and thus Best Buy was forced to honor your altered contract. You had proof of this (your receipt which is a duplicate of the original), and they too had a record of this agreement (the original receipt). Since they have the original receipt, then your receipt could not of been forged. If they doubt it, then their original records would prove otherwise.
Anyway, to make a long story short, always get things in writing. It's amazing when the salesperson is obviously lying and then when you ask to get things in writing their story quickly changes.
I'm no lawyer, although I've been around a few. However, I've learnt that it is best to completely know your rights before making any agreements (such as a purchase from a store). Amazingly, it pays off to read the fine print even on the back of the receipts. It tells you your rights, and if there are any disagreements, then it will either come down to that receipt which is the contract between you and the store or their policy file.
Many times I've had disagreements with a store, but it always ends the same way. I either point to the fine print on the back of the receipt, or I point to their policy printed on some form. They then respond with "oh . . . sorry for the inconvienence . . . let me help you with that . . ." :rolleyes:
Sometimes it also pays off to know some of the local laws. i.e In most states, retailers must honor the lowest printed in store prices (even if it is grossly mispriced). So if the product rings up higher on the register, upon the consumers request they must give the lower printed price.
This applies even when the in store printed price is lower then the advertised price. The reason I mention this, is that some stores like CompUSA will try and cheat you of this law. Places like BestBuy will ask you where you saw this price and verify it. If it is mispriced, then they'll sell you the item at that price (required by state law) and then they'll remove the mispriced label so that they don't have to honor that price anymore. CompUSA will follow a similar process but remove the price label and claim that they couldn't find it (not honoring the price and also illegal) :(. Solution is to simply grab the printed price tag inside the plastic slot, and bring up to register thus preventing them from removing the price tag before the sale. They also then forced to honor that price.
Well I think I've said too much . . . remember use the force an be an "informed" consumer :D
cbulock
06-08-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by neon
It's despicable and it would take a *minimum* effort (responsibility) to compel corps like Sony to ensure that spec changes that may be reasonably important to consumers are noted.
Neon, there is a huge point you are somehow missing. Sony does not have the flash ROM as part of the specs, so they did not change the specs. Not only that, but this is not a part that they would consider important to consumers because the only function of the ROM is to store the OS and applications. That function is unchanged. Using it for unauthorized purposes is not something Sony is, or should be concerned about. Do I wish they would support JackFlash and announce ahead of time which units were JackFlash compatible. YES! But I live in the real world and understand that they don't allow direct access to the flash ROM, so by including it or not, the machine functions in an identical fashion in their eyes.
Unregistered
06-09-2003, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by cbulock
Not only that, but this is not a part that they would consider important to consumers because the only function of the ROM is to store the OS and applications. - But I live in the real world and understand that they don't allow direct access to the flash ROM, so by including it or not, the machine functions in an identical fashion in their eyes. nah, i think he gets it. this was not an innocent oversight. why go through the trouble of changing a product line midstream?
no flash rom is not just a one application problem. i remember reviews asking sony to revise the tg50 os5 implementation because palm got 15mb out of os5. but dont ever expect any update from sony for any device that has mask rom. perhaps it is a way for sony to justify all of us paying for any update that is offered because now the palms have to be sent to sony for labor expense. i have a feeling this is the ominous dark cloud sent by sauron of the evil surprises we can expect to come from sony.
cbulock
06-09-2003, 02:22 AM
All Sony OS5 Clies have the same amount of RAM taken away by the system, and so does the new Tungsten C. There isn't going to be an update to fix that. Some apps won't run without that heap space. They probably realized that they aren't going to be releasing any OS updates at all for these devices, so why put the flash ROM in there.
euroclie
06-09-2003, 03:33 AM
Hi neon,
Originally posted by neon
As you yourself said, euroclie "I'm more knowledgeable than 95% of the "authorized dealer" and other "tech support staff members" from Sony or others... " and you never rely on what ony or tech support tells you. WHY is that? It is ludicrous when the company making the product is not a reliable source to tell you what is in it!!!! It is SONY's responsibility to make sure that its own people are consistent, that the information to its own "authorized" dealers is full disclosure, and not your responsbility to make sure that they aren't providing you with information that could be misleading and check *every* source that Sony may have, guessing which one to believe.
In an ideal world, yes, all that would be true. And I certainly won't blame you for trying to make this world become closer to this ideal world.
But the fact is that this has almost no chance to happen:
[list=1]
Sony is a mass consumer commodity manufacturer. They are not a small, emerging company like Handspring or even Palm in that regard, who had (and still have in a certain way) to care about the end-user opinion to survive. They have so many other products, non PDA-related, that even a failure in the PDA market would probably not bother them too much. Basically they're marketing their PDA the same way as their mini-disk. The problem is that a PDA is more complex and PDA customers have been used to being able to ask questions and get proper answers and help in the past. Just look at the SDK problems with Sony: they won't release the needed SDK to allow third party to produce audio or video-related applications. When they first released OS3.x devices, also, they would not release the appropriate ROM flashing tool (when Palm had publicly released one). All in all, they've proven that they want you to buy their products, use them "as is" (i.e. possibly with no third party software, that's the reason why they bundled so many software with it), and shut up. They certainly don't care for what the customer is thinking, as long as people keep on buying their devices!
Sony has no control over its "authorized" resellers. Sure they could give them the exact, up-to-the minute detailed specs of every model, but then what? In the real world we're living in, salesmen usualy don't last long enough in one department or in the shop to get to know 10% of the products they sell, and I've yet to find a shop in which the salesman would tell me "ok, I don't know the answer to your question, let's try to find out", then spend 30 or 60 minutes trying to dig into his docs to give you a piece of informations that would in the end decide you NOT to buy the product. Surely this must exist, but those must be pretty rare. So even if Sony did it "the right way" (tm), in the end this would probably not change much for the end user.
[/list=1]
If Sony made 500,000 TG50s and then, without a word, changed something that could be of some importance and Flash ROM is, but didn't tell any of the information sources that something changed and they continue to state it's the SAME TG50... you don't find that causing confusion in the marketplace?
Causing confusion, certainly. Be a legitimate cause (i.e. enforceable given the existing laws), I'm not sure. But I'm not a lawyer...
Unfortunately there is a huge lobby by corps and big business to limit the amount of information you SHOULD know and SHOULD be told so that the legal line is blurred and provides too little protection to those that need it most -- you and me, Joe consumer.
Sad but true: Sony has always been far more "tight lipped" than Palm, for instance, and I honestly think that this is not going to change anytime soon. My conclusion at this point is: use your most powerfull weapon: money, and spend it with another brand. This is a language that they are more likely to understand and react to than anything else. As you said, they have plenty of lawyers, there are fine prints at the bottom of nearly every written documents, and they're so big that they probably could bend the law a bit, so this sueing business seems potentially ineffective to me.
That being said, there's nothing wrong in trying to find other people who have been "cheated" the way you were to know if you can join your efforts to produce something interesting... just don't hold your breath, I'd say! ;)
Oh, and BTW if you really want more detailled specs, browse Sony's Japanese website, they're really much more detailled there than anywhere else. (and using a translation engine like babelfish makes it quite understandable if you're not profficient with Japanese)
Last but not least, when asking a question to Sony, don't phone them, do it by (paper) mail, this certainly makes it a more potent proof in a court, I'd bet... (but you certainly know that already much better than I do) and they're really much less likely to give you a generic or unfounded/unverified answer! The problem is that they'll probably not answer at all, of course... :(
Beavis
06-09-2003, 04:51 AM
Just to add a little fuel to the fire for neon.
I wonder if Sony started using the new PXA-255 processor instead of the PXA-250 processor in the TG-50. Intel discontinued the PXA-250 around the time the TG-50 came out.
Unless Sony bought the entire remainder of Intel's inventory, they probably would have to switch to the new PXa-255.
So, in addition to no flash rom, the newer TG-50's may have a newer, slightly faster, more power efficient processor, than was advertised (same clock speed though).
Neon, you should look into this, and see if it adds to your class action suit. I would hate to see the consumers getting more than they thought they were getting.
*YellowRose*
06-09-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by neon
I received this unfortunate message from Brayden. BRAYDER!!! BRAYDER!!!! B-R-A-Y-D-E-R Their products are wonderful. They deserve to have their name correctly spelled.
:D
Unregistered
06-09-2003, 07:00 PM
YR, I wish you would correct all the spelling and grammar errors.
akfreas
06-09-2003, 10:35 PM
Well, this thread has made fantastic NX-wifi bathroom reading. I live for this kind of stuff on CS.
the_tick
06-10-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by akfreas
Well, this thread has made fantastic NX-wifi bathroom reading. I live for this kind of stuff on CS.
ewwwwww! There are too many toilet analogies that could be made . . . :)
Who Me?
06-10-2003, 09:37 PM
Did you hear the bad news about the explosion at Yale Law School?
The room was empty at the time.
cbulock
06-10-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Who Me?
Did you hear the bad news about the explosion at Yale Law School?
The room was empty at the time.
?? :confused:
Hannibal
06-10-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by cbulock
?? :confused:
You really, really didn't get it? It is a lawyer joke, perhaps a bad one though :p
cbulock
06-10-2003, 10:08 PM
Doh, I was totally clueless! :D
Hannibal
06-10-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by cbulock
Doh, I was totally clueless! :D
I think he left out the word 'unfortunately' <g>
No, I guess he had it right the first time. Kind of like one of those double negative deals. I read it two or three times and it sounded different each time. :D
Godzilla63
06-10-2003, 11:07 PM
Now... I get it.
The emphasis on the *bad news*... ;-D
n2ifp
06-11-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by akfreas
Well, this thread has made fantastic NX-wifi bathroom reading. I live for this kind of stuff on CS.
Whoa! You spend all this time in the bathroom??
rob_squared
06-11-2003, 02:04 AM
LET THE MADNESS END!
Unregistered
06-11-2003, 06:27 AM
"If you don't like President George W. Bush, then go bomb an asprin factory!"
Huh?
Aspirin?
Ezikial Anta
06-11-2003, 08:25 AM
Why do we always get off topic?
Unregistered
06-11-2003, 08:32 AM
curiosity
Bionic Antboy
06-11-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
"If you don't like President George W. Bush, then go bomb an asprin factory!"
Huh?
Got to admit, I don't get it either.
Unregistered
06-11-2003, 12:13 PM
something to do with Clinton bombing an asprin (sic) factory in '98?
Bionic Antboy
06-11-2003, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I just don't see the connection between the two. Just because one disagrees with the actions of GWB doesn't mean one agreed Clinton's action, either. Kind of a leap in logic.
Unless, of course, the world is divided between two mutually exclusive groups of people, those that agree with everything Republicans do, and those that agree with everything Democrats do. Not that we need to go off on THAT tangent anymore.
;)
pnorman
06-11-2003, 01:37 PM
That was a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan, "rumored" to be producing toxic substances in behalf of Osama bin Laden and his merry crew (More WMDs!!!). As with present day events, there was a strong suspicion that the attack was meant to deflect public attention from Presidential headaches (Monicagate then; foundering economy now).
In any event, the factory turned out to be innocent; they manufactured not only aspirin and such, but much needed and lifesaving medicines for a particularly impoverished part of the world.
But as one who not only DESPISES that faux "presidente" but who's Clie T665 is loaded with quotes & URL documenting my beliefs, I say this:
I strongly suspect that above quoted sig-line was inrended to be ironical.
Unregistered
06-11-2003, 02:59 PM
"I strongly suspect that above quoted sig-line was inrended to be ironical."
I strongly suspect only the author of the sig line can confirm if it was intended to be ironic.
pnorman
06-11-2003, 03:23 PM
You're right; only the author can confirm that suspicion, but hey! ... "Suspicion Lives Eternal!". (But thanks catching & correcting that 'inrended' typo).
Unregistered
06-11-2003, 03:38 PM
:)
the_tick
06-11-2003, 08:34 PM
I like the new direction of this thread . . . :D
Godzilla63
06-11-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by pnorman
But as one who not only DESPISES that faux "presidente" but who's Clie T665 is loaded with quotes & URL documenting my beliefs, I say this:
I strongly suspect that above quoted sig-line was inrended to be ironical.
pnorman,
are those publicly available quotations and URLs that you can share? I'm always in need of a good dubya-ism. I just love the mans arrogance and ignorance.
Speaking of which... has this board had a suitably robust discussion on this topic yet?
This debate, Sony class action, seems to have lost steam..... :p
pnorman
06-12-2003, 12:56 AM
Godzilla63, my main collection of ***'t Bu$h-bricabrac is ~90KB in size. (The other is a mere 60KB). They're in dire need of thinning down and organizing, but I keep putting it off (while they grow LARGER). I save in .rtf so they synch with my Wordsmith files each time. If that's not too large or disorganized for you, drop your email address in my box and I'll send it off.
To the rest here: My apologies for getting this thread so far off-topic. But an earlier discussion on another BBS, got me wound up for this evening.
T1000X
06-12-2003, 02:09 AM
Hey, mods, move this thread to the Off-Topic discussion! Please!
akfreas
06-14-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by n2ifp
Whoa! You spend all this time in the bathroom??
Only if my legs don't fall asleep.
n2ifp
06-14-2003, 09:50 PM
:D LOL!
Unregistered
06-22-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by X Destruction
Yup, I just finished packing the box. It's definetly a lemon. Time to go for my third TG50 this afternoon. Maybe I could ask the guys at future shop to precharge it or something, heh. I really don't want this to happen again, I really want to see it work before I buy it, but that'll probably never happen (sigh).
X: I bought my CLIE last week. I had the same problem. It turned on by itself when I first charged it. Then it immediately turned off and would not turn back un.
I unscrewed the side panel and unplugged the battery for a couple of minutes. THIS FIXED THE PROBLEM!
X Destruction
06-23-2003, 01:01 AM
Heh, too late man, I took that TG50 back the next day, they didn't have any (their big shipment was one, which was a lemon?). So guess what, they had my old one! They were able to guess my stylus out, and I have an awesome TG50 again, hurrah! When I got to future shop after they got it out, guess what, 100% battery life! I never uncharged it at all before I went to trade it in, in the first place. So, I popped in the ms, restored everything, and boom, it's all good!
GeorgiaTech007
08-11-2003, 10:12 PM
Dear Neon,
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!
It's too bad that you are dissatisfied with your Clie, however, did it ever occur to you that there are OTHER pda's on the market? Simply get your money back from Best Buy (which they will happily do to get RID of you) and buy annother PDA!!!!! O wait, pardon me, I forgot that you obviously subscribe to the mantra of no self responsibility, I'm sure I speak for a great number of people reading this board when I say please, take your ambulance chasing escapades to annother place.
n2ifp
08-11-2003, 11:27 PM
Actually. for me, I got my first Palm device because of a class action suit. My life was saved from the dark side of the PPC world. HP gave me my money back and I spent it elseware.
There are some who are expecting that the ROM be flashable on the new NX Clies also, but it might not be doable either. The original TG50's did have Flash ROM to use, now that's no longer the case. I guess that's okay, Sony can do whatever it pleases ;)
Unregistered
08-12-2003, 12:00 AM
thought this thread had died a natural death - geez
tifosiv122
08-12-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by n2ifp
Actually. for me, I got my first Palm device because of a class action suit. My life was saved from the dark side of the PPC world. HP gave me my money back and I spent it elseware.
There are some who are expecting that the ROM be flashable on the new NX Clies also, but it might not be doable either. The original TG50's did have Flash ROM to use, now that's no longer the case. I guess that's okay, Sony can do whatever it pleases ;)
It that the HP that displayed X amount of colors that was supposed to display much more?
Erik
n2ifp
08-12-2003, 09:32 AM
Yes, that's correct. I probably would have never known it. I wasn't happy with PPC, so I jumped on the opportunity to be rid of it :)
ClieKun
12-24-2003, 05:05 PM
After Jumping around this topic and reading some of the issues. Geshhhhhhhhh Sony yet again screwed the buyers of this unit. People what say " hey dude stop you crying" really have not been exposed to sony " beta product release products" you can hack and crack these products all you want. But the fact still remains...........Why does sony just produce products that don`t have all these product design 101 problems! Screw you SONY!
Unregistered
12-30-2003, 06:41 AM
i think neo has a point.
there are too many loyal sony customers here. i just don't get why american people love sony so much. i don't know how this sony brand cult was started in america, but i hate people who cherish one brand and trust them every time they purchase it.
sony should have stated that there's only 11mb of usable memory. sony also should have done something about the flash memory issue. they probably knew about the mistakes all along and they're going to fight back as hard as they can until they win the case (so that they don't have to replace the unit and will end up costing them millions of dollars). it's a no-win situation.
toshiba also had a similar problem. they advertised e740 Pocket PC with specification of 32mb of Flash ROM. however when the new pocket pc 2003 os came out, they announced that they have no plan to offer upgrade for the new os. many people were angry because the pda was substantially slower than other competitors' pda with a same and even lower spec. in another words, toshiba's 400mhz intel xscale pda was slower than iPAQ 200mhz arm pda) that was mainly due to the software. pocket pc 2002 os's argorithm wasn't designed to take advantage of the new xscale processor. there were so many other problems as well, including battery, physical design flaw, processor design flaw (partially intel's fault), and etc. however, the basic functionality of a "PDA" did not change. over 6000 people people (including magazine editors) signed the petition which demanded the replacement of pda. toshiba had a similar answer of that of sony's. but the funny thing is that toshiba fixed all of issues that e740s had on the new e750 model. they look exactly alike inside and out. all they did was to fix the problems of e740.
read these sites esp the 2nd one:
http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3756.html
http://www.pc-counselor.com/e740.htm
these companies must have a way to deal with situations like this...
so i don't usually shop at retail store. i end up making stupid decisions based on pure impulse buying. i always read reviews and forums before i buy. that's when online shopping comes into play.
but fighting is always worth a try. at least it forces them to make better products in the future...
GRDORI
12-30-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by neon
I confirmed with Sony that the TG50 had 16MB of Flash ROM before I opened it. Lo and behold I found out that my unit doesn't have Flash ROM but something else, perhaps cheaper.
I called Sony and they started playing semantic word games with me, including how there is 11MB of free RAM in there but there are other great free software that further reduces the available RAM to something along the lines of 10.5.
Given the fact that the TG50 did have Flash ROM installed (they claim that it doesn't say "flash" on their brochure" and that others can get JackFlash and the like to work and that the ROM is a material change in what is being offered, and adding that their own employees thought so, I think they do have a responsibility to market properly to the masses when substantial changes are made.
For more information email me at tg50@quickdirect.com and I'll provide a web site for further information. My vendor wants a restocking fee to return it.
It's the second time they pulled crap like this with regard to products, the other one far more egregious.
Hey Neon,
The bottom line...or the last one printed in the specifications list is; "Features and Specifications subject to change without notice" This little bit of legalese lets Sony, and any other company that manufactures products, off the hook, they can change whatever they want whenever they want. Which leads me to the first rule in buying anything...Caveat Emptor...let the buyer beware. And as far as speaking to anyone from Sony on the phone, those folk are at a call center, they are college students and out-of-work actors that don't have the technical or design knowledge of the Japanese geniuses that conceived the product! Good luck getting satisfaction from them, they type your problem into a PC and they read from the FAQ pages that Sony provides to them...That's why this site is here.
LupeValenz
12-30-2003, 09:19 AM
Hey hey, be nice to Neon, after he wins with the TG50, hes going to go after sony for the PS2 being modified and haven't told the customers about it, and when he wins he won't give you any of his easy earned money :D.
dduran@linux
12-30-2003, 10:14 AM
You know T3 users are experiencing a similar problem...
You know the dark LCD?
Firstly, after 30 days you cannot exchange it (local rule), and if ever you exchange it for repair (in the future) you cannot exchange the unit because of a bad screen. They did advertise it has the brightest screen in the armada of palmone... HMMMMM!
blupixelz
01-02-2004, 07:33 AM
the unregistered person above (one that talked about Toshiba e740) is me.
ClieKun
01-02-2004, 09:34 AM
the unregistered replyers should be not seen nor replied too........!
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